Is an electric bike cheating?
dgk
I hate hills. I hate headwinds. I'm in my late 50s. It takes me 80
minutes to commute in and the same going home. That's a lot of time
(15 miles at 10.7 mph or so). So, maybe I can shave 25 minutes off and
bike even more often if I get something like this:
http://www.schwinnelectricbikes.com/Bikes/Tailwind.aspx
Looks like a decent commuter bike. Of course, it's at least $2000 and
is about the weakest motor I've seen, but I'm not looking for a moped.
Or maybe the WorldGSE model which seems like a real bike, but oddly
only comes in 17" or 21" sizes:
http://www.schwinnelectricbikes.com/Bikes/WorldGSE.aspx
Decent components I think; it would be a good bike if non-electric.
Well, is this cheating? Will I end up being just a mobile couch
potato?
cca...@new.rr.com
I don't know much about electric bikes. You still pedal the thing,
right?
As long as it requires some sort of physical exertion to operate,
you're not cheating.
Cullen
Appleton, WI
landotter
Looks like great fun! People piss away twice the street price of the
Tailwind just to make their HD look like a bad lamp or 15X to get the
luxury of a tokenist P***s that fails to impress at Trader Joe's. The
design is stellar and Dutch and love the quick charge battery. Just
check on how much it will cost to eventually replace it.
There are a few electric bikes around here--most often people in their
50s+ that want to keep up with a fitter or faster partner on our
rolling hills. I hear nothing but raves, TBH. Makes sense as the motor
effectively turns any landscape into Holland.
thirty-six
No it's not cheating. 80 minutes at each end of a working day must
feel bad when you're not up to it. I'm thinking that perhaps you
should be making a little better headway, perhaps 60 minutes for the
15 miles. Just try riding to work once or twice a week and maybe your
speed will improve. Try to find a non-exposed route when you are
otherwised faced with a headwind (or make this an off day). Drop
handlebars will help against winds and supple tyres will improve your
speed for any day. i always wonder, "but what if the motor fails",
I'd have to lug that as well.
DennisTheBald
I rode one of those around the LBS parking lot a bit about a year ago.
It was a weird feeling when the motor pushed, it would take some
getting used to. I think I would prefer a straight up throttle
control rather than the way these Schwins work, sensing when the
pedals were turning and all that.
DennisTheBald
Oh, yeah - the cheating bit:
without a doubt, no.
It's Chris
the ride that you can no longer handle on your on, then no, it's not
cheating.
As to whether you'll become a "mobile couch potato", that's up to you; I
don't know you well enough to judge your resolve..
- -
Compliments of:
"Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"
If you want to E-mail me use:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net
dgk
There seem to be two kinds. One has a throttle that really seems like
cheating. The Schwinns are "pedal assist" so at least you have to be
pedaling and then the assist kicks in in varying amouts depending on a
setting somewhere on the handlebars.
dgk
The deal with that quick-charge battery isn't only a quick charge.
According to Toshiba, the number of recharge cycles is like 5000 or
something. You shouldn't have to replace it for many years. Folks in
an EBike forum are dying to get them but Schwinn seems to have an
exclusive deal right now. The WorldGSE bike that I prefer (because
it's 24 speed with real components) does not have that battery. It has
a very good one, but not that one.
dgk
I suppose I could put more effort into it, but I'm thinking less, not
more. Much of my ride is along the water (East River) and wind can be
pretty wicked there. The other option is riding with lots of traffic
and I prefer to avoid that. It just isn't pleasant.
dgk
I think it's more an issue of where the motor is. Many bikes have the
motor drive the chain, or at least the rear wheel. These have the
motor on the front wheel. Kind of like switching from a rear wheel
drive car to front wheel drive, or at least 4 wheel drive. I guess
that's 2 wheel drive in bike terms.
I would think it is a bit of a learning curve to get used to the front
wheel supplying power.
I read somewhere (one of the kit sellers) that you need steel forks,
not aluminum, if you're planning on adding a front rim motor. The last
thing you want is for the fork to break. But those were more powerful
than the Schwinns; I'm sure they design them so the forks don't break.
SMS
> I hate hills. I hate headwinds. I'm in my late 50s. It takes me 80
> minutes to commute in and the same going home. That's a lot of time
> (15 miles at 10.7 mph or so). So, maybe I can shave 25 minutes off and
> bike even more often if I get something like this:
<snip>
Presently, the best electric bicycles are from this company
"http://pacificebike.com/index.html". I was talking to the founder at
Interbike, where it seems that there were 100 companies promoting $2000+
electric bicycles, which will of course never sell. He told me "I charge
less retail that they are trying to wholesale them for." He set up a
factory in Suzhou China to manufacture his bikes.
Just remember than Li-Ion batteries don't last forever. After 3-4 years
you'll have to replace the battery at significant cost.
SMS
Having the heavy battery so high with all the weight over the rear
wheel, is a poor design. Look for eBikes where the frame is custom
designed and the battery goes between the rear wheel and the seat tube.
DennisTheBald
There are kits that put a hub motor inside a rear wheel and still
allow for a freewheel... I've only got a couple old clunkers with
freewheels, most of my bikes have freehubs now. And the Schwinn still
looks like a bike instead of some thing I might make in my garage.
I can't understand people's issue with the shimano 8 speed internal
hub. My everyday bike has a triple up front but I generally don't
ever shift it on my way back and forth to work... but the tallest
thing I climb is an overpass.
The Campus model looks like my pick but it's now only available in
Europe.
dgk
wrote:
It depends on the battery. The newest LI ones are 10 lbs or so. My
pack often weighs that much. I wouldn't get anything with an SLA
battery. Those would need to go lower on the frame but they add so
much weight that the bike is useless without the motor running.
According to the Schwinn site, the whole weight of the system is 12
lbs. Whether that includes the battery is not clear. I'd guess not.
But the bike is useable without power. And I like the idea of the
Nexus rear hub, particularly for winter.
dgk
wrote:
But there are no stats at all about the bike components. And they seem
to be one size fits all. It is $1000+ cheaper than the Schwinn though.
But I like the Schwinns because they seem like good bikes. I can't
tell anything about this except that the electrical system is probably
most of the cost. This really would seem like a moped type of thing.
DennisTheBald
> On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 08:24:03 -0700, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com>
I've got a 7ah SLA (12v) on my non motorized bike this time of year.
Granted it ain't got near enough beef to run even the 180W motor on
these Schwinns. But It doesn't present a significant impairment to
transportational riding (it weighs less than my clothes & lunch
bucket). I mount it low on my 'bent (chain stays) - but higher (seat
stay near brake bosses) back in my wedgie days. SLA isn't all sexy
like them new li-ons, but it ain't expensive like 'em either. SLA,
like a steel frame, is the real deal - best bang for your buck over
the entire life of the product. If the li-ion batteries are good for
5000 cycles (as they claim), and you charged it at the office too, it
ought to last about 10 years. I'm kinda skeptical of the claim.
They've been putting this type of battery in laptops for a couple
years now so there is probably empirical data from those
implementations.
One thing for sure, these Schwinns are hands down the best looking
electric bikes available. I was kinda curious about the shaft, but
the LBS didn't have one of those for me to touch. I really like the
idea of a completely closed up chain path. Some of the european only
models had a much nicer saddle on 'em. And it would have to be some
saddle to get me back on a wedgie. If they keep tweaking the product
line I might be ready for just that next year.
dgk
I'm hoping the price goes down, but the batteries are really
expensive. But if they last even 3000 cycles, that is pretty good.
Chalo
"Cheating"? I observe this attitude regarding e-bikes a lot in
cyclists, even though they also have cars that they don't consider to
be "cheating" per se.
An e-bike is what it is-- neither a pedal-only bicycle nor a moped.
It takes quite a bit more upkeep than a normal pedal bike, and it's
heavier and less wieldy. Some folks use an e-bike as a kind of
incredibly feeble and slow moped, without pedaling at all. They are
still not cheating, unless it's cheating themselves out of a real
motor vehicle.
If you want to pick up your current pace substantially, you'll have to
add something like your current level of effort to whatever power the
e-bike can provide. Do not expect miracles, but do expect a more
satisfying result from your physical work.
Ebikes can be fun and highly economical. If using one means you spend
more days on the bike and fewer in a car, then that's a major benefit
to yourself and your community. Nobody is cheated.
Chalo
thirty-six
> >No it's not cheating. 80 minutes at each end of a working day must
> >feel bad when you're not up to it. I'm thinking that perhaps you
> >should be making a little better headway, perhaps 60 minutes for the
> >15 miles. Just try riding to work once or twice a week and maybe your
> >speed will improve. Try to find a non-exposed route when you are
> >otherwised faced with a headwind (or make this an off day). Drop
> >handlebars will help against winds and supple tyres will improve your
> >speed for any day. i always wonder, "but what if the motor fails",
> >I'd have to lug that as well.
>
> I suppose I could put more effort into it, but I'm thinking less, not
> more. Much of my ride is along the water (East River) and wind can be
> pretty wicked there. The other option is riding with lots of traffic
> and I prefer to avoid that. It just isn't pleasant.
I was thinking that there are ways to make your ride easier. By
making it easier, the amount of effort you expend will be reduced and
so will the time taken. The simplest way to make it easier is to ride
no more than once or twice a week. At twice a week, you can make
modifications in position or tyres and see the benefit. You may not
notice this if you are still tired from the previous day. If you take
it as easy as you can on each day you ride you may see the benefits
much sooner than riding harder. Give yourself plenty of time and
carry food and drink. You'll get there when you do, comfortably. As
the weather gets colder you will need to work harder to keep your body
temperature up. Because the seasons change progressively, it is a
good way to increase intensity without overdoing it. Just regulate
your body temperature by your effort expenditure.
pH
few chain drives as well.
I think it'd be fun to convert one bike just for fun. For me it'd
probably be the "Cyclone" chain drive as I have a tough hill to climb
to get home.
http://www.electric-bikes.com/bikes/kits.html
pH
terryc
> I hate hills. I hate headwinds. I'm in my late 50s. It takes me 80
> minutes to commute in and the same going home. That's a lot of time (15
> miles at 10.7 mph or so). So, maybe I can shave 25 minutes off and bike
> even more often if I get something like this:
.....
> Well, is this cheating? Will I end up being just a mobile couch potato?
No, it isn't cheating. Unfortunately abilty as we age is sometimes just
luck and I'd say go for it.
The bad news is that hub electric motors are not designed to go so slow
and can really chew up the juice below 15mph. This faster discharge may
also shorten the life of your batteries (reduced cycles and reduced
capacity).
There are some around hat drive from a bolt on motor mounted in the front
diamond and drive off the chain rings. With the correct gearing, they
would be better for you at slower speeds
terryc
> Presently, the best electric bicycles are from this company
> "http://pacificebike.com/index.html".
In Australia, the top two would get you fined and ordered off the road.
They are obviously not pedal bicycles with power assist.
Again, the same problem, hub motors and not made for slow speeds.
> Just remember than Li-Ion batteries don't last forever. After 3-4 years
> you'll have to replace the battery at significant cost.
Enormous gotcha.
thirty-six
It appears to be constant engaged drive, which means you're stuffed
when the battery dies in cold weather. Those range figures they give
will likely be in warm weather with no headwind. I think it unlikely
to be up to your commute distance for the whole year even with a fresh
charge before each journey.
Use a lower gear for the hill and ride easier. Or walk it. If you
need to get home a bit quicker then the motor may certainly give
valuable assistance on the slower climbing sections.
DougC
You'll still get exercise, and have more fun.
Anyone who would look down on you for that can go fuck off.
-----
I don't gots any, but the BionX seems to be one of the better all-around
setups.
~
pH
companies.
This one has an Austrailian Company called Elation which has a chain
drive similar to the Cyclone listed in the previous link I posted.
The difference is that it adds another whole chainring--tandem timing
gear style--and thus allows use of *all* your machine's gears.
Here's the link.....
http://www.bicycle-power.com/diykits.html
pH
dgk
I've been commuting by bike for 10 years, summer and winter. It used
to be 3-4 times a week, now it's maybe 2. I have a hybrid - pretty
upright. I could get less wind resistance with a more road-bike
geometry but I'm not comfortable with it and I'm not really roading, I
need to see what's coming at me. I also have the Schwalbe Marathon
Plus tires - they have increased rolling resistance but I never get
flats.
I'm faced with two problems. The first is that it's physically getting
harder to do the ride, the second is that it just takes too long. I
can't spend almost three hours a day biking. It means I have to get up
around 40 minutes earlier than if I drive to the train station. I
could, of course, bike to the train station but I'm going to need a
bike that I don't mind if it gets stolen. Plus, I usually take the
train when weather really sucks.
So, I looked around, said, gee, what can I do to make my biking faster
and a bit easier. I can get a job closer to home. I can sell my home
and buy one closer to my job. Or I can get some electric assistance.
dgk
wrote:
Thanks. Lots of dollars I see. You do get what you pay for I think.
dgk
Right. I don't want a bike that is so heavy (or engaged) that it needs
the motor to work. I want a nice lightweight bike that I can ride like
normal, but that will kick in some assist for nasty hills and
headwinds. I realize that's going to get pretty expensive.
thirty-six
There are perhaps health issues which need to be addressed, not
assistance for your bicycle. I would otherwise suggest that you try a
road touring bike as these are ideal for commuting distances such as
yours.
> I
> can't spend almost three hours a day biking. It means I have to get up
> around 40 minutes earlier than if I drive to the train station. I
> could, of course, bike to the train station but I'm going to need a
> bike that I don't mind if it gets stolen.
Or make a bike undesirable. Brush paint, stickers out of cereal
packets, globs of grease here and there, dripping with oil and never
ever clean it. Or paint it neon pink.
> Plus, I usually take the
> train when weather really sucks.
>
> So, I looked around, said, gee, what can I do to make my biking faster
> and a bit easier. I can get a job closer to home. I can sell my home
> and buy one closer to my job. Or I can get some electric assistance.
Or see an understanding doctor.
DennisTheBald
You might take the train?
well, then you'll need a folder.
Here's a link to an electric assist folder:
http://www.currietech.com/currie-technologies-izip-via-mezza-electric-bike.php
They, CurrieTech, have several different electric models besides this
folder. But none of them look slick like those Schwins
thirty-six
It shouldnt be. There should be a simple solution, for your
requirements are only for a narrow speed range for short periods. I
have my own ideas on how to solve this problem and I see there could
be a commercial future in the right market. There have been previous
attempts at this problem but I think that there was insufficient
market within the UK for the limited assistance that could be provided
by the technology at the time. It appears that technological advances
in motor efficiency may allow the emergence of a commercially
successful product. Keep looking, I'm sure there must be someone on
the right track. (I can see at least two right tracks) ( It would be
helpful if I could see left and rigght).
SMS
> But there are no stats at all about the bike components. And they seem
> to be one size fits all.
For the Cloud and Sunset model, I think the philosophy is more "one size
fits most." With an adjustable height and reach quill stem, and a low
stepover frame, you can fit anyone that's not exceptionally short or
exceptionally tall.
> It is $1000+ cheaper than the Schwinn though.
> But I like the Schwinns because they seem like good bikes. I can't
> tell anything about this except that the electrical system is probably
> most of the cost. This really would seem like a moped type of thing.
The Schwinn may well be better. But it is doomed to failure at that
price point. No one is buying electric bicycles that are priced so high.
It appears that Schwinn just took a standard frame, put on a rack that
holds a battery, and stronger wheels, one of which has a motor in it.
The Pacificebike models are all custom frames designed for optimal
battery placement.
I think that he's got probably the only company actually making any
money on electric bikes because he can actually sell some at those
prices. Still a lot of margin in an $800 to $1000 electric bike when
you're contracting directly with a factory in China for them.
SMS
> On Oct 28, 12:08 pm, dgk <d...@somewhere.com> wrote:
>> On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 08:24:03 -0700, SMS <scharf.ste...@geemail.com>
>> wrote:
<snip>
> I've got a 7ah SLA (12v) on my non motorized bike this time of year.
> Granted it ain't got near enough beef to run even the 180W motor on
> these Schwinns. But It doesn't present a significant impairment to
> transportational riding (it weighs less than my clothes & lunch
> bucket). I mount it low on my 'bent (chain stays) - but higher (seat
> stay near brake bosses) back in my wedgie days. SLA isn't all sexy
> like them new li-ons, but it ain't expensive like 'em either. SLA,
> like a steel frame, is the real deal - best bang for your buck over
> the entire life of the product. If the li-ion batteries are good for
> 5000 cycles (as they claim), and you charged it at the office too, it
> ought to last about 10 years. I'm kinda skeptical of the claim.
> They've been putting this type of battery in laptops for a couple
> years now so there is probably empirical data from those
> implementations.
Li-Ion batteries will last 3-5 years regardless of how many cycles they
are put through. 1000 cycles is more typical before capacity starts
falling off to unusable levels.
terryc
> SLA isn't all sexy like them new li-ons, but it ain't expensive
> like 'em either. SLA, like a steel frame, is the real
> deal - best bang for your buck over the entire life of the product.
Basically I agree with you as Li-ion are about 35 times for expensive.
The trade off is that you get about 80% more usable power* and maybe a
similar weight saving. Here is a table of comparison ($AUS) that I
cobbled together a while ago.
http://www.woa.com.au/terryc/rechargeable-batteries/rechargeable-
batteries.html
The other problem with SLA is that you have stricter discharge and
recharge parameters than lead acid. Being sealed, you have to treat them
softer
* Lead -acid should only be 50% discharged (1,000 cycles (heavily
depended on rate)).
> If the li-ion batteries are good for 5000 cycles (as
> they claim), and you charged it at the office too, it ought to last
> about 10 years. I'm kinda skeptical of the claim. They've been putting
> this type of battery in laptops for a couple years now so there is
> probably empirical data from those implementations.
I am also skeptical of these extraordinary life cycle claims being made
and will continue to be until someone shows me documentary evidence.
thirty-six
> * Lead -acid should only be 50% discharged (1,000 cycles (heavily
> depended on rate)).
Not so sure that a limited discharge is applicable when the correct
lead acid battery is chosen, that designed for deep discharge as
specified for powered wheelchairs, golf carts, forklift trucks.
Something is telling me they can be dicharged to less than 1/5
capacity.
terryc
Yes, you can, but the deeper the discharge, the less the number of
cycles. These two urls have a bit on it.
http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm
http://pvcdrom.pveducation.org/BATTERY/charlead.htm
When you are thinking of "correct one is chosen" you were probably
thinking of discharge rates, C/20, C/10, C/5, which also affect
lifecycles.
thirty-six
> On Sun, 01 Nov 2009 01:35:43 -0800, thirty-six wrote:
> > On 1 Nov, 01:10, terryc <newsninespam-s...@woa.com.au> wrote:
>
> >> * Lead -acid should only be 50% discharged (1,000 cycles (heavily
> >> depended on rate)).
>
> > Not so sure that a limited discharge is applicable when the correct lead
> > acid battery is chosen, that designed for deep discharge as specified
> > for powered wheelchairs, golf carts, forklift trucks. Something is
> > telling me they can be dicharged to less than 1/5 capacity.
>
> Yes, you can, but the deeper the discharge, the less the number of
> cycles. These two urls have a bit on it.
>
>
> When you are thinking of "correct one is chosen" you were probably
> thinking of discharge rates, C/20, C/10, C/5, which also affect
> lifecycles.
No, thick simple plates. Heavy for capacity but far more reliable.
Mike A Schwab
>
> I've been commuting by bike for 10 years, summer and winter. It used
> to be 3-4 times a week, now it's maybe 2. I have a hybrid - pretty
> upright. I could get less wind resistance with a more road-bike
> geometry but I'm not comfortable with it and I'm not really roading, I
> need to see what's coming at me. I also have the Schwalbe Marathon
> Plus tires - they have increased rolling resistance but I never get
> flats.
>
> I'm faced with two problems. The first is that it's physically getting
> harder to do the ride, the second is that it just takes too long. I
> can't spend almost three hours a day biking. It means I have to get up
> around 40 minutes earlier than if I drive to the train station. I
> could, of course, bike to the train station but I'm going to need a
> bike that I don't mind if it gets stolen. Plus, I usually take the
> train when weather really sucks.
>
> So, I looked around, said, gee, what can I do to make my biking faster
> and a bit easier. I can get a job closer to home. I can sell my home
> and buy one closer to my job. Or I can get some electric assistance.
One solution is to buy cheap used bikes. Ride one to the train
station and lock it up for the workday. When you get off, get your
other cheap used bike and ride it to work. It remains at the train
station overnight and weekends. Expect thefts and buy another cheap
used bicycle as needed. Or go the folder route. With reducing
muscle strength taking too much time, don't expect to make the full
commute. If you want extra miles, ride to the next train stop in the
morning, or just add extra miles on the trip home.
Another option is to do high rpm and high speed intervals to build
your strength and speed to reduce commute time. Probably best to wait
until spring to do these.
bob prohaska's usenet account
>
> I'm hoping the price goes down, but the batteries are really
> expensive. But if they last even 3000 cycles, that is pretty good.
Electric assist is not a cheap option. It's cost about $2k to equip
an old Schwinn trike with an EcoSpeed drive and a BatterySpace
38 volt 10.2 AH pack. The performance is bettery than a bicyclist, but battery
life is unlikely to reach 3000 cycles; 2000 is considered more normal.
Single charge range, without rider effort, promises to be 20 miles on
flat ground or better. Depending on your circumstances, it might be worth
considering. Electrically-assisted bicycles are granted administrative
rights-of-way that can be extraordinarily advantageous compared to normal
motor traffic.
bob prohaska