I posted this last week on some horse sites and got some good advice. I was wondering if a treadmill could be used to power a wagon and a horse could be made to operate the treadmill.
I have since found out that horses operated stationary treadmills for powering machines and ferryboats, but that was almost 200 years ago.
I'm wondering if the technology could be developed that would enable an ordinary horse and rider to beat Lance Armstrong and/or Smarty Jones. (I'm thinking 100 relatively flat miles at 35 mph would be a good goal, better than anything possible by a bicyclist or horse and rider.) Basic data, a horse weighs around 1000 pounds and can generate up to 3 horsepower in short bursts. Treadmill would probably have to be around 10-12 feet long, would need some sort of automatic transmission to keep the horse operating at it's best speed and keep it from falling off either end on a hilly road.
On a more practical level, if there are some of you who DON'T think it would be worthwhile to do this just to see if it could be done, this could magnify the output of a horse just as a bike magnifies the output of a human, and in parts of the world where animal power is still used, it could make peoples' lives better.
I don't own horses, don't know how to weld, don't have any money. Anybody thinks this is a cool idea, give it a shot and let me know if it works.
There are lots of challenges, both ergonomic and engineering.
>I posted this last week on some horse sites and got some good advice. >I was wondering if a treadmill could be used to power a wagon and a >horse could be made to operate the treadmill.
>I have since found out that horses operated stationary treadmills for >powering machines and ferryboats, but that was almost 200 years ago.
>I'm wondering if the technology could be developed that would enable >an ordinary horse and rider to beat Lance Armstrong and/or Smarty >Jones. (I'm thinking 100 relatively flat miles at 35 mph would be a >good goal, better than anything possible by a bicyclist or horse and >rider.) Basic data, a horse weighs around 1000 pounds and can generate >up to 3 horsepower in short bursts. Treadmill would probably have to >be around 10-12 feet long, would need some sort of automatic >transmission to keep the horse operating at it's best speed and keep >it from falling off either end on a hilly road.
>On a more practical level, if there are some of you who DON'T think it >would be worthwhile to do this just to see if it could be done, this >could magnify the output of a horse just as a bike magnifies the >output of a human, and in parts of the world where animal power is >still used, it could make peoples' lives better.
>I don't own horses, don't know how to weld, don't have any money. >Anybody thinks this is a cool idea, give it a shot and let me know if >it works.
>There are lots of challenges, both ergonomic and engineering.
Won't work for two reasons that I can think of.
1. too much weight for the apparatus; 2. four-footed animals use not only their four feet, but also their midsection at the gallop, which functions like an additional leg or similar. The mid section contracts and extends adding a lot to the power and it would be difficult to transfer this power to a treadmill, IMO; 3. lack of proper fit and friction to transfer as much power from the horse's feet to the treadmill.
OK, that's three reasons... ;-p
-Badger Oh, and you'd have to change horses well before 100 miles. I think the pony express riders changed up at like 30 miles or 50 miles, IIRC.
> I posted this last week on some horse sites and got some good advice. > I was wondering if a treadmill could be used to power a wagon and a > horse could be made to operate the treadmill.
> I have since found out that horses operated stationary treadmills for > powering machines and ferryboats, but that was almost 200 years ago.
> I'm wondering if the technology could be developed that would enable > an ordinary horse and rider to beat Lance Armstrong and/or Smarty > Jones. (I'm thinking 100 relatively flat miles at 35 mph would be a > good goal, better than anything possible by a bicyclist or horse and > rider.) Basic data, a horse weighs around 1000 pounds and can generate > up to 3 horsepower in short bursts. Treadmill would probably have to > be around 10-12 feet long, would need some sort of automatic > transmission to keep the horse operating at it's best speed and keep > it from falling off either end on a hilly road.
> On a more practical level, if there are some of you who DON'T think it > would be worthwhile to do this just to see if it could be done, this > could magnify the output of a horse just as a bike magnifies the > output of a human, and in parts of the world where animal power is > still used, it could make peoples' lives better.
I think it could work, but don't think you'd get 35 mph out of it for any length of time. Do some of the math, and figure out how much power it would take to move 1200 lbs at 35 mph over a typical road, and then compare that to how much power a horse can put out for 3 hours. I don't think those numbers will be consistent with each other.
Consider a bicycle: a top human sprinter (Cipo, etc) can put out a little over 2 hp for a few seconds, and that gets him up to around 50 mph, with a total weight of bike and rider of less than 200 lb. I don't think you'll get a horse and carriage to 35 for very long, even without carrying any useful payload.
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Badger_South <Bad...@South.net> writes: >2. four-footed animals use not only their four feet, but also their >midsection at the gallop, which functions like an additional leg or >similar. The mid section contracts and extends adding a lot to the power >and it would be difficult to transfer this power to a treadmill, IMO;
O.k., I give. How would this power *not* transfer to a treadmill? Where would it go?
"Kyler Laird" <Ky...@news.Lairds.org> wrote: O.k., I give. How would this
power *not* transfer to a treadmill? Where would it go? ^^^^^^^^^^^^ A horse walking on a treadmill could transfer full power to the propulsion system. But a horse, developing full power (picture a horse at full gallop) would be out of contact with the treadmill a lot of the time. So, to keep him from running off the front of the system, you would have to tether him, and he would end up pulling on a harness. That is what draft horses already do, except they push against the ground. I believe that is the most efficient method of drawing power from a horse. And, I believe a rider on the back of a horse would be using the horsepower more efficiently than any contrivance you could rig up. A rider at full gallop could surely beat Lance Armstrong.
> "Leo Lichtman" <l.licht...@worldnet.att.net> wrote
> > A rider at full gallop could surely beat > > Lance Armstrong.
> Every day for 3 weeks?
How long can a horse sustain a gallop?
Secretariat's time in the Belmont was 2:24 for 1.5 miles, which is about 37.5 miles per hour. (He won by 31 lengths, and it's one of those records that may stand for a long time.)
But even Secretariat couldn't maintain anywhere near that pace for many miles.
>>2. four-footed animals use not only their four feet, but also their >>midsection at the gallop, which functions like an additional leg or >>similar. The mid section contracts and extends adding a lot to the power >>and it would be difficult to transfer this power to a treadmill, IMO;
>O.k., I give. How would this power *not* transfer to a treadmill? >Where would it go?
>--kyler
Because the horse would run off the treadmill, being in the air during that time.
"Leo Lichtman" <l.licht...@worldnet.att.net> writes: >"Kyler Laird" <Ky...@news.Lairds.org> wrote: O.k., I give. How would this >power *not* transfer to a treadmill? Where would it go? >^^^^^^^^^^^^ >A horse walking on a treadmill could transfer full power to the propulsion >system. But a horse, developing full power (picture a horse at full gallop) >would be out of contact with the treadmill a lot of the time.
Uh, yeah. But the ground/treadmill is still the only thing against which the horse can push. The force doesn't go anywhere else.
>So, to keep >him from running off the front of the system, you would have to tether him, >and he would end up pulling on a harness.
Or use an incline to offset the resistance of the system, but I suspect that if you rigged such a device you'd want a harness anyway.
> I posted this last week on some horse sites and got some good advice. > I was wondering if a treadmill could be used to power a wagon and a > horse could be made to operate the treadmill.
> I have since found out that horses operated stationary treadmills for > powering machines and ferryboats, but that was almost 200 years ago.
> I'm wondering if the technology could be developed that would enable > an ordinary horse and rider to beat Lance Armstrong and/or Smarty > Jones. (I'm thinking 100 relatively flat miles at 35 mph would be a > good goal, better than anything possible by a bicyclist or horse and > rider.) Basic data, a horse weighs around 1000 pounds and can generate > up to 3 horsepower in short bursts. Treadmill would probably have to > be around 10-12 feet long, would need some sort of automatic > transmission to keep the horse operating at it's best speed and keep > it from falling off either end on a hilly road.
> On a more practical level, if there are some of you who DON'T think it > would be worthwhile to do this just to see if it could be done, this > could magnify the output of a horse just as a bike magnifies the > output of a human, and in parts of the world where animal power is > still used, it could make peoples' lives better.
> I don't own horses, don't know how to weld, don't have any money. > Anybody thinks this is a cool idea, give it a shot and let me know if > it works.
> There are lots of challenges, both ergonomic and engineering.
The horse has evolved to cover long distances efficiently. It's one of the most efficent animals on land. Anything you do to change it's energy transfer system only detracts from the horses performance.
<l.licht...@worldnet.att.net> wrote: >A horse walking on a treadmill could transfer full power to the propulsion >system. But a horse, developing full power (picture a horse at full gallop) >would be out of contact with the treadmill a lot of the time. So, to keep >him from running off the front of the system, you would have to tether him, >and he would end up pulling on a harness.
So I'm thinking lots of hamsters or gerbils. Little arows so they know which way to run. And maybe a whip.
Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on two wheels...
> >2. four-footed animals use not only their four feet, but also their > >midsection at the gallop, which functions like an additional leg or > >similar. The mid section contracts and extends adding a lot to the power > >and it would be difficult to transfer this power to a treadmill, IMO;
> O.k., I give. How would this power *not* transfer to a treadmill? > Where would it go?
I think he's saying that their hooves would likely slip on the treadmill belt, causing inefficient power transfer.
> --kyler
-- Remove the ns_ from if replying by e-mail (but keep posts in the newsgroups if possible).
df...@comcast.net (Dennis Farr) wrote in message <news:c9962ece.0406211103.72eea9db@posting.google.com>... > I posted this last week on some horse sites and got some good advice. > I was wondering if a treadmill could be used to power a wagon and a > horse could be made to operate the treadmill.
I think a lot of the discussion on this is missing a basic point... A horse on a running on a treadmill is using the exact same motion as a horse running on the ground. All the treadmill and wagon can do is add friction and slow down the horse. The reason a bicycle is more efficient than running is that the weight is supported and the power is transferred directly to the wheels.
If you could design a wheeled contraption to support the horses weight and let it transfer power directly to the wheels, you would have something that would go very well. Also people would pay to see it :)
>> >2. four-footed animals use not only their four feet, but also their >> >midsection at the gallop, which functions like an additional leg or >> >similar. The mid section contracts and extends adding a lot to the power >> >and it would be difficult to transfer this power to a treadmill, IMO;
>> O.k., I give. How would this power *not* transfer to a treadmill? >> Where would it go?
>I think he's saying that their hooves would likely slip on the treadmill >belt, causing inefficient power transfer.
Actually using bad or no physics, I fsked up, and now I'm trying to do damage control. It might have been I wasn't awake yet. Yeah that's it. ;-p
Thanks for all the comments. I'd like to mainly reply to the objections that were raised.
"pony express changed horses after 25 miles"
Exactly. If Lance had to run and not ride I doubt if HE could cover 100 miles in a day either. Put the horse on a mechanism that can 1) coast, and 2) has gears for magnifying the horse's power, and I think the horse could go at least as far as a human on a bike.
"galloping"
The gears on a bike let us move our legs at a reasonable speed while turning the wheels much faster. Imagine a Clydesdale on a four-tired vehicle with a treadmill hooked up to a very high gear (what could he turn on the flat for an extended period of time? 200 inches? 300?) The horsey doesn't have to go fast, he's a very strong animal, and if he can push that big gear all day long, he's going to cover some ground.
"too heavy"
Lance's bike weighs about 10% of Lance. If horse and driver weigh 1200 pounds, 10% of that is 120 lb. Double that because we're probably going to need 4 wheels. Even if you double that again, we're up to about what a buggy weighs, and horses pulled them around in all those Western movies without too much evident strain.
"horse evolved to run"
Point well taken. I think the hardest part of this project is going to be making the apparatus well suited to the horse. But don't forget that horses walking on treadmills were the preferred power source for ferry boats for a brief period when the technology for treadmills existed but we couldn't make steam engines yet.
Again, thanks for all the comments. Hopefully someone will try this out, if not with a horse, maybe with a dog first.
Thanks for all the comments. I'd like to mainly reply to the objections that were raised.
"pony express changed horses after 25 miles"
Exactly. If Lance had to run and not ride I doubt if HE could cover 100 miles in a day either. Put the horse on a mechanism that can 1) coast, and 2) has gears for magnifying the horse's power, and I think the horse could go at least as far as a human on a bike.
"galloping"
The gears on a bike let us move our legs at a reasonable speed while turning the wheels much faster. Imagine a Clydesdale on a four-tired vehicle with a treadmill hooked up to a very high gear (what could he turn on the flat for an extended period of time? 200 inches? 300?) The horsey doesn't have to go fast, he's a very strong animal, and if he can push that big gear all day long, he's going to cover some ground.
"too heavy"
Lance's bike weighs about 10% of Lance. If horse and driver weigh 1200 pounds, 10% of that is 120 lb. Double that because we're probably going to need 4 wheels. Even if you double that again, we're up to about what a buggy weighs, and horses pulled them around in all those Western movies without too much evident strain.
"horse evolved to run"
Point well taken. I think the hardest part of this project is going to be making the apparatus well suited to the horse. But don't forget that horses walking on treadmills were the preferred power source for ferry boats for a brief period when the technology for treadmills existed but we couldn't make steam engines yet.
Again, thanks for all the comments. Hopefully someone will try this out, if not with a horse, maybe with a dog first.
On 22 Jun 2004 08:04:39 -0700, df...@comcast.net (Dennis Farr) wrote:
>Thanks for all the comments. I'd like to mainly reply to the >objections that were raised.
>"pony express changed horses after 25 miles"
>Exactly. If Lance had to run and not ride I doubt if HE could cover >100 miles in a day either. Put the horse on a mechanism that can 1) >coast, and 2) has gears for magnifying the horse's power, and I think >the horse could go at least as far as a human on a bike.
Huh? You said a 'flat course'. Of course a biker can coast, and the gears work. The point, I thought, was 'horse/treadmill v Lance 100 miles on the flat'. Simple. Simple answer, nope.
>"galloping"
>The gears on a bike let us move our legs at a reasonable speed while >turning the wheels much faster. Imagine a Clydesdale on a four-tired >vehicle with a treadmill hooked up to a very high gear (what could he >turn on the flat for an extended period of time? 200 inches? 300?) The >horsey doesn't have to go fast, he's a very strong animal, and if he >can push that big gear all day long, he's going to cover some ground.
Even if you made the device of Unobtanium, the lightest metal in the universe (for sake of argument), the friction of such an incredibly complex device would be more than enough to bring it to a near standstill, IMO.
>"too heavy"
>Lance's bike weighs about 10% of Lance. If horse and driver weigh 1200 >pounds, 10% of that is 120 lb. Double that because we're probably >going to need 4 wheels. Even if you double that again, we're up to >about what a buggy weighs, and horses pulled them around in all those >Western movies without too much evident strain.
>"horse evolved to run"
>Point well taken. I think the hardest part of this project is going to >be making the apparatus well suited to the horse. But don't forget >that horses walking on treadmills were the preferred power source for >ferry boats for a brief period when the technology for treadmills >existed but we couldn't make steam engines yet.
So maybe the question should have been, can a horse, walking all day, beat Lance over 100 miles. Can a horse walk all day? For 2 days? Horses, depending on breed can go pretty fast for 20-30 miles and that's it.
>Again, thanks for all the comments. Hopefully someone will try this >out, if not with a horse, maybe with a dog first.
Yeah, not to be argumentative, interesting question for a while. On the dog, too small an engine.
Not in hooves, but in the shoes. You nail a shoe on the hoof, as usual, with taps to screw in studs. Eventing horses wear studded shoes (they gallop around a long course jumping large, solid obstacles).
And yes, a well-conditioned horse *can* walk all day. Think about wild horses, too. They have to walk all day to find enough to eat and drink. (BTW, horses normally only sleep 3-4 hours a day).
Hey Dennis, I brought this up with a few nerd friends of mine during an IRC chat. I asked, how fast would a horse go if he could be on somethign that is geared like a bicycle.
The general consensus is that a horse is specifically designed to run. Thin aerodynamic body, long legs to amplify (or 'gear') the muscle strength.. etc. Everything about a horse seems to be for speed and running.
Compare that to a human, where running appears to be the least efficient means of travelling. Look at marathon runners.. pounding the pavement with their feet, flailing their arms around and presenting the wind with the worst possible surface for aerondynamic purposes. Exactly opposite of a horse..
So, that's why I think humans can go so well on bicycles. It compensates for all the bad design of a human. It gets them bent down aero more like a human, it is geared as to make use of a human's high torque leg muscles, it is smooth locomotion etc.. etc...
So my guess is a horse on a bicycle would do not get any better of a speed or power transfer or whatever.
I don't know if that's what you were asking about, but thsoe were the results from the discussion that your post spurred last night.
> I posted this last week on some horse sites and got some good advice. > I was wondering if a treadmill could be used to power a wagon and a > horse could be made to operate the treadmill.
> I have since found out that horses operated stationary treadmills for > powering machines and ferryboats, but that was almost 200 years ago.
> I'm wondering if the technology could be developed that would enable > an ordinary horse and rider to beat Lance Armstrong and/or Smarty > Jones. (I'm thinking 100 relatively flat miles at 35 mph would be a > good goal, better than anything possible by a bicyclist or horse and > rider.) Basic data, a horse weighs around 1000 pounds and can generate > up to 3 horsepower in short bursts. Treadmill would probably have to > be around 10-12 feet long, would need some sort of automatic > transmission to keep the horse operating at it's best speed and keep > it from falling off either end on a hilly road.
> On a more practical level, if there are some of you who DON'T think it > would be worthwhile to do this just to see if it could be done, this > could magnify the output of a horse just as a bike magnifies the > output of a human, and in parts of the world where animal power is > still used, it could make peoples' lives better.
> I don't own horses, don't know how to weld, don't have any money. > Anybody thinks this is a cool idea, give it a shot and let me know if > it works.
> There are lots of challenges, both ergonomic and engineering.
In article <c9962ece.0406211103.72eea...@posting.google.com>, df...@comcast.net (Dennis Farr) writes:
> On a more practical level, if there are some of you who DON'T think it > would be worthwhile to do this just to see if it could be done, this > could magnify the output of a horse just as a bike magnifies the > output of a human, and in parts of the world where animal power is > still used, it could make peoples' lives better.
>Compare that to a human, where running appears to be the least efficient >means of travelling. Look at marathon runners.. pounding the pavement with >their feet, flailing their arms around and presenting the wind with the >worst possible surface for aerondynamic purposes. >Exactly opposite of a >horse..
Actually, humans are very good at running but for very long distances. An early method of hunting was simply chasing an animal until it keeled over from exhaustion. I have heard that horses can be caught in this fashion by people. Of course, a horse and many other animals can run faster then a person.
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