How Sad
Auntie Em
It happens.
Em
Be careful what you wish for....
Cyli
wrote:
>Boy the quality of this ng has really gone down hill lately. How sad.
>It happens.
>
It certainly shouldn't be down. Not with wonderful posters like you
sharing their outdoor experiences and giving trip reports.
Oh. Yeah. You didn't.
Nevermind...
Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout.
http://www.visi.com/~cyli
email: cy...@gmail.com.invalid (strip the .invalid to email)
Ed Huesers
> >Boy the quality of this ng has really gone down hill lately. How sad.
> >It happens.
Cyli wrote:
> It certainly shouldn't be down. Not with wonderful posters like you
> sharing their outdoor experiences and giving trip reports.
Trip reports? You like those?
Now I suppose you'll demand a report on the three night trip I'm
doing today.
> Nevermind...
By,
Ed Huesers
http://www.grandshelters.com
Me
Cyli <cy...@gmail.com.invalid> wrote:
Trip Report 11/25
I went from the cabin, on out to the shop, to check on the genset.
It was raining and cold, untill I got to the insulated shop, warmed by
the running genset. Everything was fine, so I walked the 25 Yds back to
the cabin, scanning the sky for a break in the low overcast. Just dismal
Gray. Oh well, the turkey is cooking in the woodfired stove......
Me who actually lives out in the alaskan bush.....and does write
the ocasional "Trip Report"...... Now where is the outhouse...
rick etter
"Ed Huesers" <e...@grandshelters.com> wrote in message
news:41A60520...@grandshelters.com...
>> Auntie Em wrote:
>> >Boy the quality of this ng has really gone down hill lately. How sad.
>> >It happens.
>
> Cyli wrote:
>> It certainly shouldn't be down. Not with wonderful posters like you
>> sharing their outdoor experiences and giving trip reports.
>
> Trip reports? You like those?
> Now I suppose you'll demand a report on the three night trip I'm
> doing today.
Man Ed, you're good! A three night trip in one day! How long does a
week-long trip take you? :-)
Cyli
wrote:
(snipped)
> Trip reports? You like those?
> Now I suppose you'll demand a report on the three night trip I'm
>doing today.
>
Damn straight, Ed. Just because I don't go out in the winter doesn't
mean I don't like to hear / read about it.
Shylah Leake
Auntie Em
wrote:
>On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 02:15:47 -0600, Auntie Em <Aunt...@yahoo.com>
>wrote:
>
>>Boy the quality of this ng has really gone down hill lately. How sad.
>>It happens.
>>
>It certainly shouldn't be down. Not with wonderful posters like you
>sharing their outdoor experiences and giving trip reports.
>
Sorry hon, I don't have "outdoor experiences". My husband tells me
the only way he could get me outside would be to set the house on
fire.
Nevertheless, I like hearing about other folks' adventures. I keep
thinking that maybe one day I will figure out what is so great about
staring at trees and rocks.
Eugene Miya
Auntie Em <Auntie Em> wrote:
>Boy the quality of this ng has really gone down hill lately. How sad.
Downhill? It has always been like this.
Have not been here long eh?
>Be careful what you wish for....
Ain't that the truth?
--
Eugene Miya
Ed Huesers <e...@grandshelters.com> wrote:
> Trip reports? You like those?
> Now I suppose you'll demand a report on the three night trip I'm
>doing today.
You report your trips for your IRS taxes?
Geez, people are getting bureaucratic.....
--
Eugene Miya
Auntie Em <Auntie Em> wrote:
Oh you must like pornography.
>I keep
>thinking that maybe one day I will figure out what is so great about
>staring at trees and rocks.
You have the order backward.
There is nothing great about staring at rocks and trees.
They represent the control condition of the world (the ways things are),
if you want to ask what is so great, ask that about buildings and plowed
fields, etc.
--
Baffman
heard of wild anilmals right? Beautiful lakes, rivers and meandering
streams? Ever sat and listened to all that is going on around you? Get out
of the world humans dominate and feel vulnerable and small. It's very
humbling and can change your life. If you're not physically able, ride a
horse. Just get out there!! As Muir put it, "Go to the mountains and get
there good tidings."
Baff
"Auntie Em" <Aunt...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:iqcdq05207fb0jplt...@4ax.com...
the Moderator
"Baffman" <baf...@nospamcharter.net> wrote in message
news:JtRpd.18426$sE7....@fe07.lga...
> If trees and rocks are all you see then you have a long way to go. You
have
> heard of wild anilmals right? Beautiful lakes, rivers and meandering
> streams? Ever sat and listened to all that is going on around you? Get
out
> of the world humans dominate and feel vulnerable and small. It's very
> humbling and can change your life. If you're not physically able, ride a
> horse. Just get out there!! As Muir put it, "Go to the mountains and get
> there good tidings."
>
> Baff
>
Being in the wilderness has the opposite effect on me. I feel empowerment.
Walking into the forest with only the things I can carry on my back and
walking back out a few days later reinforces my ability to survive
comfortably and enjoy myself with minimal accoutrements.
Auntie Em
<baf...@nospamcharter.net> wrote:
>If trees and rocks are all you see then you have a long way to go. You have
>heard of wild anilmals right? Beautiful lakes, rivers and meandering
>streams? Ever sat and listened to all that is going on around you? Get out
>of the world humans dominate and feel vulnerable and small. It's very
>humbling and can change your life. If you're not physically able, ride a
>horse. Just get out there!! As Muir put it, "Go to the mountains and get
>there good tidings."
>
>Baff
Yes, lakes and rivers and streams, that's nice. But you go, you look.
Big Deal. Frankly, it's too damn cold in the winter and in the summer
you have to deal with BUGS.
I guess I'll just never get it.
Em
an inside girl.
Baffman
to know that you're not as invincible as we sometimes get to feeling.
That's what I'm talking about. I almost made it sound like I'm scared and
love it! Hehe.
"the Moderator" <sparky@no_spam_engineer.com> wrote in message
news:Z-OdncN0I4x...@centurytel.net...
Ed Huesers
> > Trip reports? You like those?
> > Now I suppose you'll demand a report on the three night trip I'm
> > doing today.
Eugene Miya wrote:
> You report your trips for your IRS taxes?
Them pictures can't have army surplus gear.
> Geez, people are getting bureaucratic.....
Merely a taunting trout.
Ed Huesers
http://www.grandshelters.com
Ed Huesers
> > Trip reports? You like those?
> > Now I suppose you'll demand a report on the three night trip I'm
> > doing today.
rick etter wrote:
> Man Ed, you're good! A three night trip in one day! How long does a
> week-long trip take you? :-)
I never lay claim to being an outdoor writer.
Ed Huesers
http://www.grandshelters.com
Eugene Miya
Ed Huesers <e...@grandshelters.com> wrote:
>> > Trip reports? You like those?
>> > Now I suppose you'll demand a report on the three night trip I'm
>> > doing today.
>
> Them pictures can't have army surplus gear.
Sure why not?
You gain the survivalists who are in a military rut but want to appear in it.
You gain certain vets from their memories.
Surplus gear isn't all bad.
>> Geez, people are getting bureaucratic.....
> Merely a taunting trout.
Never considered being a fish. Salmon (sake)?
Marine mammals like a whale or dolphin or orca?
You guys want reports, and you want "privacy?" Don't come complaining
to me losing your privacy. And we just held a conference sesson where
the speakers, including the audience wanting to ask questions wore spoof
aluminum foil hats. Forget the hats, tape their mouths.
--
Eugene Miya
Baffman <baf...@nospamcharter.net> wrote:
>Yes, I like that feeling too. In the back of your mind though, you've got
>to know that you're not as invincible as we sometimes get to feeling.
And where does this feeling of invincibility come from?
I have never understood where some portion of the population gets this.
>That's what I'm talking about. I almost made it sound like I'm scared and
>love it! Hehe.
Well there are ways of invoking fear fairly easily.
>>> If trees and rocks are all you see then you have a long way to go. You
>>> have heard of wild animals right?
Human have exterminated most of the major large land based carnivores
and quite a few sea based ones. California's "State" animal on the flag
has been extinct for 80 years. Humans number almost 7 billion, and
some of these species are numering in the tens of thousands and
lower numbers.
>>> Beautiful lakes, rivers and meandering
>>> streams? Ever sat and listened to all that is going on around you?
Yep, good advice.
>> Get out
>>> of the world humans dominate and feel vulnerable and small. It's very
>>> humbling and can change your life. If you're not physically able, ride a
>>> horse. Just get out there!! As Muir put it, "Go to the mountains and
>>> get there good tidings."
Works for some.
"the Moderator" <sparky@no_spam_engineer.com> wrote in message
news:Z-OdncN0I4x...@centurytel.net...
>> Being in the wilderness has the opposite effect on me. I feel
>> empowerment.
>> Walking into the forest with only the things I can carry on my back and
>> walking back out a few days later reinforces my ability to survive
>> comfortably and enjoy myself with minimal accoutrements.
That's misc.survivalism.
That generally common, too.
--
Auntie Em
>and quite a few sea based ones. California's "State" animal on the flag
>has been extinct for 80 years. Humans number almost 7 billion, and
>some of these species are numering in the tens of thousands and
>lower numbers.
Far, far more people are killed annualy by dogs, I would imagine. The
only thing I have seen in the wild (from my car), was a black bear.
Acquaintances of mine have been hiking for years and have never seen
ANYTHING (but they are noisey! ha ha).
Eugene Miya
Auntie Em <Auntie Em> wrote:
>Big Deal. Frankly, it's too damn cold in the winter and in the summer
>you have to deal with BUGS.
Winter, skiing.
Summer depends where one visits.
>I guess I'll just never get it.
That might be the case.
It's about where some people perceive the center of the universe.
>Em
>an inside girl.
3 decades ago, Life magazine, then a weekly, did a special issue on the
Outdoors. And the Letters to the Editor in the weeks following
included one letter (a complaint), an opinion like yours only shorter.
A woman expressed the opinion that she was waiting for the special issue on
the great American indoors. This is lost to many posters in the group.
Studs Turkel also writes against the outdoors preferring cities.
Lots of Americans like it that way.
>Be careful what you wish for....
You post here? it's how you chose to waste your time.
"New York is where I'd rather stay. I get allergic smelling hay.
I just adore a penthouse view. Darling I love you, but give me Park Avenue.
"Fresh Air...
"Times square...
"You are my wife
"good bye city life
"Green Acres We are THERE!!!!
--
Eugene Miya
>>and quite a few sea based ones. California's "State" animal on the flag
>>has been extinct for 80 years. Humans number almost 7 billion, and
>>some of these species are numering in the tens of thousands and
>>lower numbers.
In article <ujaoq0tl69p1ttrds...@4ax.com>,
Auntie Em <Auntie Em> wrote:
>Far, far more people are killed annualy by dogs, I would imagine.
No need to imagine. I posted the Alaska stats released this year last month.
<Our culture obsesses with bear attacks in spite of the fact that they are
<extremely rare. Domestic dogs have killed more people in the State of
<Alaska (27) since 1975 [to 2004] than all 3 species of bears combined
<(22) have killed in the same time period. Yet we just can't seem to
<shake our obsession with these extremely low probability events.
Text from the CD.
>The only thing I have seen in the wild (from my car), was a black bear.
Well let's see, saw 2 bears, a mom and a cub 2 weekends ago.
Missed seeing polar bears back in June, but otherwise had a nice tour
from Floyd. I have certainly seen 2 mountain lions from my rides.
>Acquaintances of mine have been hiking for years and have never seen
>ANYTHING (but they are noisey! ha ha).
That can be true.
Being noisy (in many cases people being sociable) is a way of missing
animals. But ambient noise can over come talking in some remote areas
and that is how grizzly bears get startled and how people get mauled.
I largely give and take what plants I see. I prefer to view rocks and
minerals. If one really wants to see wildlife, one has to learn some field
biology, and that can be as close as putting a thermometer up a sleeping
bear's ass.
>Em
>Be careful what you wish for....
Why if dreams were wishes, all beggars would ride.
--
Auntie Em
>Missed seeing polar bears back in June, but otherwise had a nice tour
>from Floyd. I have certainly seen 2 mountain lions from my rides.
Rides? do you mean bike ride? Were you afraid? Whereas I am not
inheritantly afraid of bears in the wild, I cannot imagine being in
close proximity to a mountain lion and not being terrified of the
possibilities.
Auntie Em
>You post here? it's how you chose to waste your time.
Oh, not at all. I love to hear how happy and excited all this makes
you guys. You know, there are people out there who NEVER enjoy
anything so much as you all seem to enjoy your outdoors. Just because
I don't understand it doesn't mean I can't appreciate that to you it
is something very, very special and precious. I totally respect that.
It's just not my thing. I almost wish it were.
Em
Eugene Miya
Auntie Em <Auntie Em> wrote:
>>Missed seeing polar bears back in June, but otherwise had a nice tour
>>from Floyd. I have certainly seen 2 mountain lions from my rides.
>
>Rides? do you mean bike ride?
Ride might not be an accurate word. The first ML I saw I was riding in
a mentor's jeep in the Sierra Foothills. The second I was driving my
own truck. We have had in excess over half a dozen mtn. lion reports
in Palo Alto not far from me.
>Were you afraid?
Not particularly.
>Whereas I am not
>inheritantly afraid of bears in the wild, I cannot imagine being in
>close proximity to a mountain lion and not being terrified of the
>possibilities.
Bears are pretty powerful land animals. Black bears aren't specifically
bad, but all bears should be given berth. 2 years ago I picked up a
back scratcher while killing some time in Los Anchorage. The scratcher
is the geometry of one of the larger grizzlies ever killed: quite large.
Good sized claws. Shipping was free fortunately.
Maybe I should have got 2?
If one walks the Alaskan North slope, one occasionally comes up huge
pits dug by grizzlies when they chase after the odd ground squirrel, etc.
Polar bears should be given even wider berth because their environment
is typically very food scarce. But SW Alaskan grizzly bears (those who
feed off salmon) can cause more damage with a paw swipe than a polar
bear (who can be larger and heavier when older).
Mtn. Lions are very private animals. Unless you are of small frame or
have a particularly hungry individual they aren't problems. They also
travel in lower elevations. This won't hold for other kinds of lions
such as African lions or other cats. You have to make the effort to
look for lions in most cases (mostly requires a biologist as most people
are too noisy or somewhat self absorbed when they travel).
Many more hazardous animals. We've left out alligators, poisonous snakes,
and if Peter Hickey isn't lurking, the would point out that most
dangerous of animals the mosquito which has lead to the deaths of many
millions over the millenia. Fear is largely misdirected.
--
Eugene Miya
In article <3ltqq0l26u6sppa8u...@4ax.com>,
Auntie Em <Auntie Em> wrote:
>Oh, not at all.
Not at all, what?
It's like this:
>Be careful what you wish for....
The key word is "choice" as was pointed out by Tom Robbins [Still Life
with Woodpecker], and number other books and film [the Matrx series].
Or as the last Indiaa Jones film said:
Choose wisely.
>I love to hear how happy and excited all this makes
>you guys. You know, there are people out there who NEVER enjoy
>anything so much as you all seem to enjoy your outdoors. Just because
>I don't understand it doesn't mean I can't appreciate that to you it
>is something very, very special and precious. I totally respect that.
>It's just not my thing. I almost wish it were.
Oh certainly.
Despite "improvements" in automation, work satisfaction in the modern
world has not significantly improved.
There are people such as yourself who like the vivarious aspects of
life, reading books over others' travels, etc.
But that's not how it works.
Over the past day or so, thinking about your posts betwen meetings at
work and the like, the issue of say looking at rocks and trees (roughly
your example) isn't the real big deal. It's actually, to repeat an
oft used phrase "The journey is the reward." It's the process.
An old prof. pointed out it's the difference between sex and porn.
Some people like adventures. It sounds like a cute idea, but the
thrashing which tends to take place in adventures works against other
values like exploration and research. So you will get tourists here who
are content just to see, and then you will get some of rest of us
who explore.
--
Pat O'Connell
> In article <0htqq01jtvtlfr355...@4ax.com>,
> Auntie Em <Auntie Em> wrote:
>>>Well let's see, saw 2 bears, a mom and a cub 2 weekends ago.
>>>Missed seeing polar bears back in June, but otherwise had a nice tour
>>>from Floyd. I have certainly seen 2 mountain lions from my rides.
>>
>>Rides? do you mean bike ride?
>
> Ride might not be an accurate word. The first ML I saw I was riding in
> a mentor's jeep in the Sierra Foothills. The second I was driving my
> own truck. We have had in excess over half a dozen mtn. lion reports
> in Palo Alto not far from me.
>
>>Were you afraid?
>
> Not particularly.
>
[snip bears]
>
> Mtn. Lions are very private animals. Unless you are of small frame or
> have a particularly hungry individual they aren't problems. They also
> travel in lower elevations. This won't hold for other kinds of lions
> such as African lions or other cats. You have to make the effort to
> look for lions in most cases (mostly requires a biologist as most people
> are too noisy or somewhat self absorbed when they travel).
Encountering a mountain lion print (which was about 4 to 5 inches
across) in a dry, sandy arroyo not far from the Ladrone Mountains
(wildlife refuge) in NM is one of those "things that make you go
Hmmmmm." Seeing the prints made five grown men, all experienced in the
outdoors, quite nervous. We left the arroyo for higher ground.
I also saw what might have been a mountain lion at a ranch in the
eastern plains of New Mexico. The animal was perhaps a quarter mile
away, and no one had binoculars to distinguish whether it was a lion,
bobcat, or coyote. No, we weren't afraid, as whatever it was not moving
toward us.
--
Pat O'Connell
[note munged EMail address]
Take nothing but pictures, Leave nothing but footprints,
Kill nothing but vandals...
Eugene Miya
Pat O'Connell <nvcaver.F...@cox.net> wrote:
>Encountering a mountain lion print (which was about 4 to 5 inches
>across) in a dry, sandy arroyo not far from the Ladrone Mountains
>(wildlife refuge) in NM is one of those "things that make you go
>Hmmmmm." Seeing the prints made five grown men, all experienced in the
>outdoors, quite nervous. We left the arroyo for higher ground.
Home now.
So the bear paw back scratcher is 7 inches across. The claws are about
1.5 inch long. Five guys is a fairly large crew.
>I also saw what might have been a mountain lion at a ranch in the
>eastern plains of New Mexico. The animal was perhaps a quarter mile
>away, and no one had binoculars to distinguish whether it was a lion,
>bobcat, or coyote. No, we weren't afraid, as whatever it was not moving
>toward us.
Imagine visiting the tiger refuges in India. 8^)
2 net.tigers, not spotted recently.
--
Pat O'Connell
> In article <W3yrd.385340$a85.179332@fed1read04>,
> Pat O'Connell <nvcaver.F...@cox.net> wrote:
>>Encountering a mountain lion print (which was about 4 to 5 inches
>>across) in a dry, sandy arroyo not far from the Ladrone Mountains
>>(wildlife refuge) in NM is one of those "things that make you go
>>Hmmmmm." Seeing the prints made five grown men, all experienced in the
>>outdoors, quite nervous. We left the arroyo for higher ground.
>
> Home now.
> So the bear paw back scratcher is 7 inches across. The claws are about
> 1.5 inch long.
Well, mtn. lions aren't really all that large compared to a griz. "Skin
that one greenhorn and I'll get you another!"
> Five guys is a fairly large crew.
Cavers "hill hopping" for other cave entrances near two known caves.
Interesting day; found a fairly nice deposit of clear selenite, but no
more caves.
>>I also saw what might have been a mountain lion at a ranch in the
>>eastern plains of New Mexico. The animal was perhaps a quarter mile
>>away, and no one had binoculars to distinguish whether it was a lion,
>>bobcat, or coyote. No, we weren't afraid, as whatever it was not moving
>>toward us.
>
> Imagine visiting the tiger refuges in India. 8^)
Be vewwy vewwy quiet!
Eugene Miya
Sir Ed Huesers <e...@grandshelters.com> wrote:
> Merely a taunting trout.
Salmon has better oils in it.
Slurp.
--
Cyli
But, though I love it, salmon is reputed to be more polluted. Too
much of it fish farmed now and fed weird stuff.
Caveat
>On 3 Dec 2004 14:41:22 -0700, eug...@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote:
>
>>In article <41ABEBBF...@grandshelters.com>,
>>Sir Ed Huesers <e...@grandshelters.com> wrote:
>>> Merely a taunting trout.
>>
>>Salmon has better oils in it.
>>
>>Slurp.
>
>
>But, though I love it, salmon is reputed to be more polluted. Too
>much of it fish farmed now and fed weird stuff....
...like dyes, to give it it's proper look:
http://www.sectionz.info/Issue_1/Hidden_costs.html
We only eat wild-caught salmon in this house, which can be purchased
fresh (at big bucks) or frozen (much less expensive). But a recent
flyer from Trader Joe's alerted us to an interesting fact -- most
frozen salmon is frozen when caught, then shipped to China where it is
thawed, sliced and packaged, and then RE-frozen and shipped back here
for sale in markets. One can only imagine what happens to the bacteria
count in the process. (TJ's sells a product that is only frozen once.)
Caveat
Jon Danniken
> If trees and rocks are all you see then you have a long way to go. You
have
> heard of wild anilmals right? Beautiful lakes, rivers and meandering
> streams?
Finding that little crick out in the middle of nowhere, fed by a spring,
that has a big wide section covered with a thick carpet of moss, untrampled
for as long a time as you can imagine.
Jon
Eugene Miya
Sir Ed Huesers <e...@grandshelters.com> wrote:
>>>> Merely a taunting trout.
On 3 Dec 2004 14:41:22 -0700, eug...@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote:
>>>Salmon has better oils in it.
>>>Slurp.
Cyli <cy...@gmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>But, though I love it, salmon is reputed to be more polluted. Too
>>much of it fish farmed now and fed weird stuff....
In article <rfu3r0ljt09gb85cl...@4ax.com>,
Caveat <cav...@bogusaddy.com> wrote:
>...like dyes, to give it it's proper look:
>
>http://www.sectionz.info/Issue_1/Hidden_costs.html
>
>We only eat wild-caught salmon in this house, which can be purchased
>fresh (at big bucks) or frozen (much less expensive). But a recent
>flyer from Trader Joe's alerted us to an interesting fact -- most
>frozen salmon is frozen when caught, then shipped to China where it is
>thawed, sliced and packaged, and then RE-frozen and shipped back here
>for sale in markets. One can only imagine what happens to the bacteria
>count in the process. (TJ's sells a product that is only frozen once.)
In life, we have to chose our poisons. If one believes in the
connectedness of things, contaminants are practically every where.
Every one of you has some degree of nuclear fallout from the out air
tests done in the 40s thru 60s. [Hey Pat if you are reading this,
contact me, email bounced, I am touring the Nevada Test Site in a month].
We now have instrumention capable of sensing PPB (parts per billion)
and now going to PPT [Trillon].
While I have followed the farm raised salmon controversy.
That's not every thing. We still have accumulated DDTs in our fats,
Sr-90 and Cs-137 in our bones, PCBs, and now MTBE. The Arctic has it
even worse as that's where pesticides sprayed in the temperate regions
slowly migrate.
Some of the weird stuff are antibiotics.
That's part of the reason for them losing their influence
and disease agents gaining resistance even as they start to
work their way to humans. For that reason alone, the fish farmers
as well as other farmers are going to be pulled back from using them
(and they will balk, otherwise they can get infected with antibiotic
resistant diseases).
To a first approximation:
Bacteria are a problem when we can't cook food. So enjoy sushi while
you can.
We are living near the end of the era where we will be able to eat any
fish at all.
So stuff from the wild and stuff claimed organic are in some cases
largely irrelevant.
Enjoy life while you can.
--
mkt
>connectedness of things, contaminants are practically every where.
>Every one of you has some degree of nuclear fallout from the out air
>While I have followed the farm raised salmon controversy.
>That's not every thing. We still have accumulated DDTs in our fats,
>Sr-90 and Cs-137 in our bones, PCBs, and now MTBE. The Arctic has it
>Some of the weird stuff are antibiotics.
Most of those nasties in the fissh, except for the antibiotic-resistant
bacteria, are substances which do their damage after accumulating in
the body over time. One of the advantages of growing old is that you
can start eating fish without worrying so much about them, because if
you're going to die in a few decades from cancer, heart disease,
stroke, natural causes, etc. then a few micrograms of this or that
substance will take too long to kill you to worry about.
Conversely, I believe that the FDA has different fish-eating guidelines
for children, whose still-developing brains and nervous systems are
more sensitive to mecury contamination.
--MKT
Ed Huesers
> > Merely a taunting trout.
Eugene Miya wrote:
> Salmon has better oils in it.
But the seals have even better oils.
But vixen is taunted by trout and I'd believe walleye.
> Slurp.
Bake a unskinned and unscaled walleye and the skin lifts right off
when done.
Slurp.
Sir?
Ed Huesers
http://www.grandshelters.com
John Paul Minda
Eugene Miya wrote:
>
> To a first approximation:
> Bacteria are a problem when we can't cook food. So enjoy sushi while
> you can.
In Ontario, the province recently enacted a "raw fish ban". Which means
that any fish to be served raw must be deep frozen for some number of
hours. It created an uproar in the sushi croud, but most people
settlied down when the realized that the sushi that had been ating was
probaly frozed at sea as soon as it was caught. There is no way to get
tuna to Ontrio without it being frozen
fresh fish is not easy to come by anywhere.
>
> We are living near the end of the era where we will be able to eat
any
> fish at all.
Or at least the cost benefit ratio will be tipped in the "cost"
direction. Maybe it already has. Fish (especially Salmon) has plenty of
oils that a developing fetus, baby or child would need, and yet that is
one of the fish that is off limits for kids.
So what is the benefit of eating Fish versus the cost.
>
> So stuff from the wild and stuff claimed organic are in some cases
> largely irrelevant.
>
Or good marketing. Organic and "free Range" are labeling terms. There
are some differences in quality, but lots of it is a marketing thing
(that I am a sucker for anyway). Food has become a adjective laden
product. Not just "fried" but Pan-fried. Not just rasted but
"Oven-roasted" Not just Beef but "grain fed" Beef. Even the supermarket
chicken is "Grain fed, Air-chilled" . Its the same chicken I always buy
but it sounds better.
> Enjoy life while you can.
Always.
Eugene Miya
>> Salmon
> But the seals have even better oils.
Yeah, but have you eaten seal or walrus?
> But vixen is taunted by trout and I'd believe walleye.
>> Slurp.
> Bake a unskinned and unscaled walleye and the skin lifts right off
>when done.
Yeah but for what duration cooking time?
> Slurp.
> Sir?
Sure. We hereby dub thee Sir net.bear.polar
Like Slime in r.c.
--
Eugene Miya
>> Bacteria are a problem when we can't cook food. So enjoy sushi while
>> you can.
In article <1102521637....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
John Paul Minda <jpm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>In Ontario, the province recently enacted a "raw fish ban". Which means
>that any fish to be served raw must be deep frozen for some number of
>hours. It created an uproar in the sushi croud, but most people
>settlied down when the realized that the sushi that had been ating was
>probaly frozed at sea as soon as it was caught. There is no way to get
>tuna to Ontrio without it being frozen
>
>fresh fish is not easy to come by anywhere.
You catch you own.
Some of the most fantasic salmon that I have ever eaten was swimming
in the Columbia on a trip to Idaho only an hour or 2 earlier.
You want to do this BEFORE the self-boiling liquid wastes at Hanford
(PNWL) break through their aquifier.
>> We are living near the end of the era where we will be able to eat
>>any fish at all.
>
>Or at least the cost benefit ratio will be tipped in the "cost"
>direction. Maybe it already has. Fish (especially Salmon) has plenty of
>oils that a developing fetus, baby or child would need, and yet that is
>one of the fish that is off limits for kids.
It's particuarly bad for the North Slope Inuits who are informed to
avoid nursing their own kids.
>So what is the benefit of eating Fish versus the cost.
Right now the pendulum has swung in fishs' favor.
It's an interesting social issue as to why certain cultures don't eat
fish or rice, and they tend to ones which joke about Indians not eating
cattle (from Hinduism).
>> So stuff from the wild and stuff claimed organic are in some cases
>> largely irrelevant.
>
>Or good marketing. Organic and "free Range" are labeling terms. There
>are some differences in quality, but lots of it is a marketing thing
>(that I am a sucker for anyway). Food has become a adjective laden
>product. Not just "fried" but Pan-fried. Not just roasted but
>"Oven-roasted" Not just Beef but "grain fed" Beef. Even the supermarket
>chicken is "Grain fed, Air-chilled" . Its the same chicken I always buy
>but it sounds better.
Sad but true.
It's those lawyers and unscientific environmentalists.
>> Enjoy life while you can.
>
>Always.
--
Doug Chadduck
Re: Walleye
two things : Not much beats 'em - fresh, summer or winter, cubed, and
batter fried with a couple cold ones and onion rings........Limited out
two days in July in ND. Always a pleasure to go home.
second : Heard something on the news just this week about how many
restaraunts and stores advertise Walleye but what you're really getting
is European Zanker (sp?) Even some upper midwest restaraunts that should
know better. Never had store bought or ordered off the menu so wouldn't
know the difference.
Ed Huesers
> > But the seals have even better oils.
Eugene Miya wrote:
> Yeah, but have you eaten seal or walrus?
Floyd keeps inviting me... Seal is one of or the only creature that
contains all the nutrients for a human to survive on a prolonged diet of
it.
> >Bake a unskinned and unscaled walleye and the skin lifts right off
> >when done.
> Yeah but for what duration cooking time?
30 to 40 minutes at 350 F. or until the meat flakes apart, time
varies with size of fish. Any more and it starts drying out.
Most people consider it to be raw when cooked like this but the fish
does cook a bit more when remove from the heat. I've had many people
comment on how good it tastes but I've had others [from your ancestors
homeland] cringe at the sight of it.
> > Slurp.
> > Sir?
Hey! I don't know if I'm gonna like this Sir bit if I'm going to have
to slurp behind closed doors.
Does a polar bear in a tux look like a penguin?
> Sure. We hereby dub thee Sir net.bear.polar
Bring on the dragons and damsels in distress.
Arthur had the round table, I'll settle with a round room.
> Like Slime in r.c.
Cynic?
Ed Huesers
http://www.grandshelters.com
Eugene Miya
>> when done.
>> Slurp.
In article <0EPtd.160094$V41.119813@attbi_s52>,
Doug Chadduck <dcha...@comcast.net> wrote:
>Re: Walleye
>two things : Not much beats 'em - fresh, summer or winter, cubed, and
Golden trout?
Salmon?
Grayling?
Char?
>batter fried with a couple cold ones and onion rings........Limited out
>two days in July in ND. Always a pleasure to go home.
Cooler about breading and batter.
>second : Heard something on the news just this week about how many
>restaraunts and stores advertise Walleye but what you're really getting
>is European Zanker (sp?) Even some upper midwest restaraunts that should
>know better. Never had store bought or ordered off the menu so wouldn't
>know the difference.
Hmmmm.
--
Pat O'Connell
>>> Bake a unskinned and unscaled walleye and the skin lifts right off
>>> when done.
>>> Slurp.
>>> Ed Huesers
>
> In article <0EPtd.160094$V41.119813@attbi_s52>,
> Doug Chadduck <dcha...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>Re: Walleye
>>two things : Not much beats 'em - fresh, summer or winter, cubed, and
Had walleye cooked Chinese style in Chinatown part of Chicago, many
years ago--excellent. I don't know how they seasoned the fish, but I
believe it was steamed.
> Golden trout?
> Salmon?
Best as Sushi, but good grilled as well. Had fresh, alder smoked salmon
once.
> Grayling?
> Char?
Bluegill, perch and bass. The follwing also applies to these fish as
well as farmed catfish.
>>batter fried with a couple cold ones and onion rings........Limited out
>>two days in July in ND. Always a pleasure to go home.
>
> Cooler about breading and batter.
--
Janet
Ed Huesers <e...@grandshelters.com> wrote:
> > Sir Ed Huesers wrote:
> > > But the seals have even better oils.
>
> Eugene Miya wrote:
> > Yeah, but have you eaten seal or walrus?
>
> Floyd keeps inviting me... Seal is one of or the only creature that
> contains all the nutrients for a human to survive on a prolonged diet of
> it.
seal meat nutritive values
Seal, ringed, meat (Alaska Native)
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-001-02s069o.html
Nutritional Information on Seal, bearded (oogruk), meat, raw (Alaska
Native)
http://www.nutritiondata.com/facts-001-02s069c.html
More iron in bearded seals than ringed seals
I would have thought seal meat would be higher in fat than it is,
bearded seals are pretty low in fat.
Pete Hickey
Sometimes it means something. Air-chilled as opposed to water-chilled.
How they cool meat. If done by soaking in ice water, the meat absorbs
water, and increases its weight.
>>> Enjoy life while you can.
>>Always.
Why bother?
--
"It's a sad day for american capitalism when a man
can't fly a midget on a kite over Central Park."
J. Moran
John Paul Minda
Pete Hickey wrote:
> In article <41b7a13b$1@darkstar>, Eugene Miya <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu>
wrote:
> >In article <1102521637....@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com>,
> >John Paul Minda <jpm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >>chicken is "Grain fed, Air-chilled" . Its the same chicken I always
buy
> >>but it sounds better.
> >
> >Sad but true.
> >It's those lawyers and unscientific environmentalists.
>
> Sometimes it means something. Air-chilled as opposed to
water-chilled.
> How they cool meat. If done by soaking in ice water, the meat
absorbs
> water, and increases its weight.
>
Oh. That must be why I have to brine the meat to make it soak up more
water before I cook it. Or at least that is what I think I'm suposed to
do, according to those cookin' shows on TV.
Speaking of which, I saw one of these guys (Jamie Oliver) doing a show
where he helped in friend come up with good one pot meals for a long
backpacking trip. They were in the street in a market cooking something
over the stove, and discussing how bacon won't go bad right away and
packs flat. The guy who was the backpacker claimed to use his "spent"
teabag as a potscrubber, which sounded like good advise for
ultrslighters and bums.
Mike Romain
I hate that water done chicken. Cooked some drumsticks last night and
got 1" of water in the fry pan!
You can get already cooked bacon now in the grocery stores that doesn't
need refrigeration. It is light with all the fat gone and packs really
small. Good too.
Mike
86/00 CJ7 Laredo, 33x9.5 BFG Muds, 'glass nose to tail in '00
88 Cherokee 235 BFG AT's
Cyli
wrote:
(snipped)
>
>Oh. That must be why I have to brine the meat to make it soak up more
>water before I cook it. Or at least that is what I think I'm suposed to
>do, according to those cookin' shows on TV.
You brine T-bones and Porterhouses?
My local grocery stores have to label how much (if any) water is added
to pork chops and steaks and roasts. After I started reading those
labels thoroughly, I bought about a hundred shares of stock in the
company that sells well but puts 10 to 20 percent of water in those
products. And stopped buying their meat for my consumption. Sure it
makes them seem nice and juicy and tender, but I can do that with a
cheap home made marinade and some seasonings and come out way ahead on
a finished weight of meat for cost to me.
Hmmmm. 10 percent water in a product that sells from around $4 US to
$13 US per pound. It's a good racket.
John Paul Minda
Cyli wrote:
> You brine T-bones and Porterhouses?
>
No, never beef. It would come out like a slimy corned beef. Only pork,
chicken and turkey. And most small game needs a good salting.
Koshering produces similar results.
>
> Hmmmm. 10 percent water in a product that sells from around $4 US to
> $13 US per pound. It's a good racket.
>
>
For sure. Most pork at the mega-market is sold as "seasoned" which
means injected with a sodium solution. You try to buy locally, but its
not alwasy possible.
What was that old song about commodity meat? Hasil Adkins i think.
Something about hot dogs.
MH
"Eugene Miya" <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
news:41ac2f7c$1@darkstar...
> In article <qqanq0p0kbq6uuog9...@4ax.com>,
> Auntie Em <Auntie Em> wrote:
> >Big Deal. Frankly, it's too damn cold in the winter and in the summer
> >you have to deal with BUGS.
>
> Winter, skiing.
> Summer depends where one visits.
>
> >I guess I'll just never get it.
>
> That might be the case.
> It's about where some people perceive the center of the universe.
>
> >Em
> >an inside girl.
>
> 3 decades ago, Life magazine, then a weekly, did a special issue on the
> Outdoors. And the Letters to the Editor in the weeks following
> included one letter (a complaint), an opinion like yours only shorter.
> A woman expressed the opinion that she was waiting for the special issue
on
> the great American indoors. This is lost to many posters in the group.
> Studs Turkel also writes against the outdoors preferring cities.
> Lots of Americans like it that way.
>
>
> >Be careful what you wish for....
>
>
Martha
MH
> In article <41B67CB0...@grandshelters.com>,
> Sir Ed Huesers <e...@grandshelters.com> wrote:
> >> > taunting trout.
> >> Salmon
> >
> > But the seals have even better oils.
>
> Yeah, but have you eaten seal or walrus?
>
Well, I've eaten whale when I visited friends in Denmark. My ex-fiance
(Danish) had a friend from Fahroe (sp?) Island owned by Denmark. There isn't
any industry there to think of, except the fishing industry. The whales
(forgot which type) they eat are not rare or endangered. When one is spotted
the village calls a holiday and when the whale is killed, the entire village
shares thus providing them food, oil, etc. for weeks. Nothing is wasted.
The meat was dark, nearly black and it was stewed for a very long time with
potatoes. It was ok, sort of like liver.
Martha
MH
> Oh. That must be why I have to brine the meat to make it soak up more
> water before I cook it. Or at least that is what I think I'm suposed to
> do, according to those cookin' shows on TV.
>
> Speaking of which, I saw one of these guys (Jamie Oliver) doing a show
> where he helped in friend come up with good one pot meals for a long
> backpacking trip. They were in the street in a market cooking something
> over the stove, and discussing how bacon won't go bad right away and
> packs flat. The guy who was the backpacker claimed to use his "spent"
> teabag as a potscrubber, which sounded like good advise for
> ultrslighters and bums.
>
book Kitchen of Light. The host, a Norwegian chef, cooks from different
places outdoors in Norway. Not only is it some of the most beautiful country
(I've been there twice), but he also incorporates a lot of the native foods
into his cooking. Lots of fish, berries, mushrooms, wild greens. Yumm....
Martha
Eugene Miya
>> >> Salmon
>> > But the seals have even better oils.
>> Yeah, but have you eaten seal or walrus?
In article <346vd.1082641$Gx4.9...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
MH <bast...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Well, I've eaten whale when I visited friends in Denmark. My ex-fiance
>(Danish) had a friend from Fahroe (sp?) Island owned by Denmark. There isn't
>any industry there to think of, except the fishing industry. The whales
>(forgot which type) they eat are not rare or endangered. When one is spotted
Likely Minkes.
Well, I would not called any whale "common."
>the village calls a holiday and when the whale is killed, the entire village
>shares thus providing them food, oil, etc. for weeks. Nothing is wasted.
Barrow is like this.
>The meat was dark, nearly black and it was stewed for a very long time with
>potatoes. It was ok, sort of like liver.
Aging the meat is common. Whale meat in general is quite rich.
Ed hasn't but Floyd certainly get daily exposure to seal, walrus, whale
and other locals where he lives.
--
Eugene Miya
"Eugene Miya" <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
news:41ac2f7c$1@darkstar...
>> 3 decades ago, Life magazine, then a weekly, did a special issue on the
>> Outdoors. And the Letters to the Editor in the weeks following
...
>> the great American indoors.
>>
>> >Be careful what you wish for....
>> You post here? it's how you chose to waste your time.
In article <hM3vd.1081971$Gx4.7...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
MH <bast...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>She's a troll. It's best to ignore her.
>Martha
Every one trolls.
Ignoring is a choice.
Auntie Em is quite sincere.
She is largely killing time.
--
Cyli
wrote:
(snipped)
>
>Every one trolls.
>Ignoring is a choice.
>Auntie Em is quite sincere.
>She is largely killing time.
Well, there's simple killing and torturing to death.
But she'd better watch out. Up until 1987 my entire idea of roughing
it was to be forced to stay at a Holiday Inn where the pool wasn't
heated.
The only reason I went on the overnight camp and another overnight
canoe and camping trip that year was to enjoy quality time with some
friends. I had given up the great outdoors as fun about three decades
before that. However... By the end of the summer I'd done a solo
canoe overnight (on a very mild river) and the following summer I
bought my own canoe, as rental cost too much, and was too limiting.
My youngest child was 16 and my husband home in the evenings and
nights, so I was free to be out and away. I went. And went. By a
couple of years later I took a five day solo trip down the Namekagon
and the St. Crox in a whitewater kayak (packing is a problem with
that) very lightly equipped. I loved it.
So, one day when she least expects it, Auntie Em may find herself in a
camping store, buying a tent.
Eugene Miya
>>Auntie Em is quite sincere.
>>She is largely killing time.
In article <rihsr0p4pmtmlugon...@4ax.com>,
Cyli <cy...@visi.com> wrote:
>Well, there's simple killing and torturing to death.
In today's urban society, there are a lot of people like Auntie Em from
varying backgrounds. She is right in that there are a large percentage
of urban dwellers who are far more depressed and far less happy that
people in the group.
>But she'd better watch out. Up until 1987 my entire idea of roughing
>it was to be forced to stay at a Holiday Inn where the pool wasn't
>heated.
>The only reason I went on the overnight camp and another overnight
>canoe and camping trip that year was to enjoy quality time with some
>friends. I had given up the great outdoors as fun about three decades
>before that. However... By the end of the summer I'd done a solo
>canoe overnight (on a very mild river) and the following summer I
>bought my own canoe, as rental cost too much, and was too limiting.
I suspect among women, your experience and decisions are rare.
I'd hazard a guess of 1:4 in the population favorable to outdoor
experience, the other 3 would get softer along predictable lines:
indoor plumbing, the cold, etc.
I suspect that you found the friends before going into the outdoors.
>I took a five day solo trip
Good for you!
>So, one day when she least expects it, Auntie Em may find herself in a
>camping store, buying a tent.
I've a friend like that. Trust me, buying the tent isn't enough.
It's using it. I am watching one friend who in a 12 year period got two
tents are barely used them. The second, most recent, was an expensive
Stephenson. That person's problems are much deeper than going camping.
There are women who will get out and are tough as nails (I was just in a
meeting with hundreds of them yesterday, but lots more men, because guys
have different baggage).
--
MH
> varying backgrounds. She is right in that there are a large percentage
> of urban dwellers who are far more depressed and far less happy that
> people in the group.
>
than I would if I stayed at home in the city.
This coming year, I'll be doing some solo backpacking. I'm tired of waiting
for people I can get along with to go with me. There's always a lot BS that
comes with that. And my close friends aren't into the stuff I am. They think
I'm nuts. ; ) Besides, I've traveled throughout the US and Europe on my own,
no reason why I can't go on a backpacking alone. I just got back from a
4-day ski trip to Tahoe. Got some good skiing in and as always, had a great
time by myself.
I actually prefer traveling by myself. Sometimes I'll make a side trip and
visit friends, but like this time, I just go out and do stuff alone. I
always meet cool people, probably more than if I was already with folks.
Actually, I've read (forgot where) than there are more women into adventure
traveling than men. They can't all be going out in groups. : )
Martha
Cyli
wrote:
Snipped)
>By the end of the summer I'd done a solo
>>canoe overnight (on a very mild river) and the following summer I
>>bought my own canoe, as rental cost too much, and was too limiting.
>
>I suspect among women, your experience and decisions are rare.
>I'd hazard a guess of 1:4 in the population favorable to outdoor
>experience, the other 3 would get softer along predictable lines:
>indoor plumbing, the cold, etc.
Oh, I've gotten softer. I _am_ aging. But I'd still rather be up a
river even by only a mile than in a campground. I still regard a
place with pit toilets as pretty luxurious. Flush toilets are
decadent. Unless I'm at home. Then they'd better work right.
And I've shortened my camping season as I have become more averse than
ever to cold weather and age related problems have surfaced. It's no
longer enough for me that there be mostly sunshine and temps above
40F. I want lots of sunshine and night temps above 40F. I assume
I'll get wimpier as I age more.
>
>I suspect that you found the friends before going into the outdoors.
Oh, yes. I had no clue they were the least bit outdoorsy. Computer
geeks, one and all. I wasn't aware of the crossover that can take
place between the two. As I'd had some mild experiences with the
outdoors as a child and teen, I knew I could handle it. The biggie
was when I discovered that canvas tents were no longer the cutting
edge. Every time I thought of canvas tents I remembered the one a
neighbor put up every summer for the kids to play in when it was
raining. Disgusting thing. Not to mention musty, unwieldy, laborsome
to erect, and leaky. Kept me off camping thoughts.
Cyli
r.bc: vixen. Minnow goddess. Speaker to squirrels.
Often taunted by trout. Almost entirely harmless.
Wolf Leverich
MH wrote:
> Actually, I've read (forgot where) than there are more women into
> adventure traveling than men. They can't all be going out in groups.
> : )
>
> Martha
Probably more than half the serious peakbaggers I know are women, many
of whom solo peaks.
In the Hundred Peaks Section of the Sierra Club, 5 of the 7 members of
the 2005 Management Committee are women. The most active climbing
leader last year was a woman.
Women in the SoCal area are obviously welcome in HPS (of course, guys
are also welcome!). Guides to our peaks and lists of our scheduled
group outings are at:
http://angeles.sierraclub.org/hps/
Cheers, Wolf.
--
Dr. Brian Leverich Co-moderator, soc.genealogy.methods/GENMTD-L
Angeles Chapter LTC Admin Chair http://angeles.sierraclub.org/ltc/
P.O. Box 6831, Frazier Park, CA 93222-6831 leve...@mtpinos.com
mkt
Mike Romain wrote:
> John Paul Minda wrote:
[...]
> > packs flat. The guy who was the backpacker claimed to use his
"spent"
> > teabag as a potscrubber, which sounded like good advise for
> > ultrslighters and bums.
Yeah, someone showed me the teabag trick, one problem is that I rarely
drink tea. Add some milk and sugar and it's an okay after dinner
drink, but I don't think the teabag is smaller or lighter than say a
half a paper towel, which has about the same cleaning power. And the
teabag holds an annoyingly large amount of fluid, which either has to
be wrung out and then either dumped or drunk (and now your fingers need
to be cleaned and dried), or carried along in the trash.
> You can get already cooked bacon now in the grocery stores that
doesn't
> need refrigeration. It is light with all the fat gone and packs
really
> small. Good too.
Yeah, I haven't seen it in the stores where I shop but a friend brought
some along on a trip.
A possible substitute: I had some ordinary beef jerky that had been
sitting around for a long long time (I don't remember if it was sealed
or open). It'd become even drier than ordinary jerky, and quite
brittle. It felt a lot like, and tasted a little like, eating crispy
bacon!
--MKT
Eugene Miya
>> varying backgrounds. She is right in that there are a large percentage
>> of urban dwellers who are far more depressed and far less happy that
>> people in the group.
In article <Q3Nvd.1095273$Gx4.8...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>Martha
MH <bast...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I know I always feel happier after going backpacking, skiing or climbing
>than I would if I stayed at home in the city.
I would say that only as a generalization.
You likely never had a fatality on one of your trips
or come close to.
>This coming year, I'll be doing some solo backpacking. I'm tired of waiting
>for people I can get along with to go with me. There's always a lot BS that
>comes with that. And my close friends aren't into the stuff I am. They think
>I'm nuts. ; ) Besides, I've traveled throughout the US and Europe on my own,
>no reason why I can't go on a backpacking alone. I just got back from a
>4-day ski trip to Tahoe. Got some good skiing in and as always, had a great
>time by myself.
There used to be a potentially talented woman who used to post here and
other groups. This was her complaint, but she also had other baggage.
Yes: among women it's a problem for those attempting to socialize more
than do trips. You work your friends, you find out whom you trust.
You will find out the female talent pool amongst yourselves is smaller
than you realize (forget us guys for a moment).
There are the valued partners, and a trip with the skilled men and women
in many cases should not be missed (well sometimes you do as I missed
a trip down the Noatak which could have been my first Alaska trip,
with skiing partners).
Travelling alone is a basic skill. It's no mistake that all the outdoor mills
like OB and NOLS have a solo section just prior to their graduations.
References: R. Byrd's Alone or Mawson's Will.
>I actually prefer traveling by myself. Sometimes I'll make a side trip and
>visit friends, but like this time, I just go out and do stuff alone. I
>always meet cool people, probably more than if I was already with folks.
Flexibility is useful.
>Actually, I've read (forgot where) than there are more women into adventure
>traveling than men. They can't all be going out in groups. : )
I would tend to be suspect of that kind of information.
I would suspect that the men refused to answer.
As women outlive men, you guys will have plenty of time for solitude
later in life as well.
The line from the Yosemite guide is:
On either side of the social spectrum, there lies a leisure class.
--
Eugene Miya
You are not alone.
Having some problems with my knee's connective tissues at the moment.
>But I'd still rather be up a
>river even by only a mile than in a campground. I still regard a
>place with pit toilets as pretty luxurious. Flush toilets are
>decadent. Unless I'm at home. Then they'd better work right.
>
>And I've shortened my camping season as I have become more averse than
>ever to cold weather and age related problems have surfaced. It's no
>longer enough for me that there be mostly sunshine and temps above
>40F. I want lots of sunshine and night temps above 40F. I assume
>I'll get wimpier as I age more.
Well to the later I can say Wear warm clothing and learn to use it well.
Summer in high latitudes is interesting because you get snow and ice and
nearly constant sun. When I think of my friends who live that life
style, they have great lives. Not so sad. Or not so SAD.
I just need a reasonable flat spot, sometimes quiet helps, other times
one gets too tired and nods off.
The problem: as idealistic as we might wish to be, aging in the outdoors,
there comes a point where if we have not died in a car accident,
we as citizens may get hospitalized. I have seen that system for other
reasons, and our youth oriented society cannot convince, even if they
visit grand parents in such homes. This is why most retire in warm
sunny areas. But not all (ask Floyd his decisions to retire in Barrow
of all places).
>>I suspect that you found the friends before going into the outdoors.
>
>Oh, yes.
That's a big difference. Human population densities are greater in cities.
>I had no clue they were the least bit outdoorsy. Computer
>geeks, one and all. I wasn't aware of the crossover that can take
>place between the two.
If you read Levy's book Hackers, you will find reference to the West
coast (Bay area vs. LA) crew. In fact the last 2/3 of the book happens
in CA and the last 1/3 S of Yosemite. This doesn't mean the so called
pasty-white guys from MIT (Boston) weren't outdoorsy. There were a few,
most associated not only with MIT but BBN (who built the first machines
which we now term routers). A few came to Palo Alto. I climb with some
of them. They are well balanced people: when they have a good idea,
they aren't optimistic or pessimistic, they are realists. There is an
underlying substrate of experience, caution, and knowledge
This isn't to say that all geeks were outdoorsy. And not all were
computer people. I have been surprised which of the various computer
author/workers were outdoors people. Great scientists were outdoorsmen
and women: Fermi, Teller, Oppenheimer, etc. others were not, Szilard
von Neumann, who didn't like to get their hands dirty.
And they have associated hobbies.
The way to find people is fishing for them.
>As I'd had some mild experiences with the
>outdoors as a child and teen, I knew I could handle it. The biggie
>was when I discovered that canvas tents were no longer the cutting
>edge. Every time I thought of canvas tents I remembered the one a
>neighbor put up every summer for the kids to play in when it was
>raining. Disgusting thing. Not to mention musty, unwieldy, laborsome
>to erect, and leaky. Kept me off camping thoughts.
Oh I remember the small pup tent I had as as kid. It had nothing to do
with what I would later do.
> Speaker to squirrels.
Speaking of which...
You should see this one B-day card I got for another person.
Alas I only have one, and she gets it next week.
--
Wolf Leverich
> In article <a8cvr0hu756sbpi1r...@4ax.com>,
> Cyli <cy...@visi.com> wrote:
> >I had no clue they were the least bit outdoorsy. Computer
> >geeks, one and all. I wasn't aware of the crossover that can take
> >place between the two.
>
> If you read Levy's book Hackers, you will find reference to the West
> coast (Bay area vs. LA) crew. In fact the last 2/3 of the book happens
> in CA and the last 1/3 S of Yosemite. This doesn't mean the so called
> pasty-white guys from MIT (Boston) weren't outdoorsy. There were a few,
> most associated not only with MIT but BBN (who built the first machines
> which we now term routers).
Back in the days of Joyce Chen, you could find a lot of the Cambridge
geeks doing outdoorsy things.
And they still are. I was flatly amazed, on my second Sierra Club
outing here in LA, to discover that the Old Guy who was nursemaiding
me climbed with my undergraduate advisor at Harvard. I hadn't a clue
that Larry Ho (my faculty advisor) did mountaineering, or that the
Duane McRuer (the Old Guy) whose technical papers I'd read was also
the author of the Angeles Chapter Leader's Reference Book.
If you hang out on trail these days with the Sierra Club, it's not
unusual to hear people talking about the joys of Perl hacking (heard
that last weekend) or using statistical filtering to combine multiple
GPS tracks to improve the accuracy of a trail survey.
It's a very interesting world ... Cheers, Wolf.
MH
> >> In today's urban society, there are a lot of people like Auntie Em from
> >> varying backgrounds. She is right in that there are a large percentage
> >> of urban dwellers who are far more depressed and far less happy that
> >> people in the group.
>
> In article <Q3Nvd.1095273$Gx4.8...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> >Martha
> MH <bast...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >I know I always feel happier after going backpacking, skiing or climbing
> >than I would if I stayed at home in the city.
>
> I would say that only as a generalization.
>
> You likely never had a fatality on one of your trips
> or come close to.
True, but then, you don't know the type of 'hood I live in, either. It's
always good to get away.
>
> >This coming year, I'll be doing some solo backpacking. I'm tired of
waiting
> >for people I can get along with to go with me. There's always a lot BS
that
> >comes with that. And my close friends aren't into the stuff I am. They
think
> >I'm nuts. ; ) Besides, I've traveled throughout the US and Europe on my
own,
> >no reason why I can't go on a backpacking alone. I just got back from a
> >4-day ski trip to Tahoe. Got some good skiing in and as always, had a
great
> >time by myself.
>
> There used to be a potentially talented woman who used to post here and
> other groups. This was her complaint, but she also had other baggage.
>
> Yes: among women it's a problem for those attempting to socialize more
> than do trips. You work your friends, you find out whom you trust.
> You will find out the female talent pool amongst yourselves is smaller
> than you realize (forget us guys for a moment).
I don't understand this. I'm not a feminist and I don't just have women as
friends. How dull that would be. So, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're
saying here.
>
> There are the valued partners, and a trip with the skilled men and women
> in many cases should not be missed (well sometimes you do as I missed
> a trip down the Noatak which could have been my first Alaska trip,
> with skiing partners).
>
> Travelling alone is a basic skill. It's no mistake that all the outdoor
mills
> like OB and NOLS have a solo section just prior to their graduations.
Also, getting to where one is going is a skill. You can climb all the
mountains you want, but if you can't figure out a basic public
transportation map, you're no good to me. A lot of outdoors types are lost
in an urban area without their cars.
>
> >I actually prefer traveling by myself. Sometimes I'll make a side trip
and
> >visit friends, but like this time, I just go out and do stuff alone. I
> >always meet cool people, probably more than if I was already with folks.
>
> Flexibility is useful.
Most certainly, probably the most important skill, that and being
*streetwise*.
>
> >Actually, I've read (forgot where) than there are more women into
adventure
> >traveling than men. They can't all be going out in groups. : )
>
> I would tend to be suspect of that kind of information.
> I would suspect that the men refused to answer.
> As women outlive men, you guys will have plenty of time for solitude
> later in life as well.
Perhaps, but maybe there are other factors added into this. More women now
have decided not to have families, more women are divorced, older womena re
paying more attention to their health; their could be lots of reasons.
Martha
Eugene Miya
>> >geeks, one and all. I wasn't aware of the crossover that can take
>> >place between the two.
>>
>> If you read Levy's book Hackers, you will find reference to the West
>> coast (Bay area vs. LA) crew. In fact the last 2/3 of the book happens
>> in CA and the last 1/3 S of Yosemite. This doesn't mean the so called
>> pasty-white guys from MIT (Boston) weren't outdoorsy. There were a few,
>> most associated not only with MIT but BBN (who built the first machines
>> which we now term routers).
In article <slrncs3k0m....@askin-17.linkpendium.com>,
Wolf Leverich <leve...@linkpendium.com> wrote:
>Back in the days of Joyce Chen, you could find a lot of the Cambridge
>geeks doing outdoorsy things.
Saying "Cambridge" depends.
>And they still are. I was flatly amazed, on my second Sierra Club
>outing here in LA, to discover that the Old Guy who was nursemaiding
>me climbed with my undergraduate advisor at Harvard.
Excepting Gates, Paul Graham and Robert Morris and a lot of people who
worked on early IBM hardware, Harvard is not typically cited as a bed of
computerdom, and in fact a fair number of Harvard grads look down
upon computing in contrast to MDs and JDs. This is a generalization.
>I hadn't a clue
>that Larry Ho (my faculty advisor) did mountaineering, or that the
Now the HMC has had a fine tradition of climbing mostly from the 60s
with fine writers like Dave Roberts coming out of it (and his student
J.Krauker).
The organized clubs do okay on the lower end and lesser technical climbing
and this is a problem the AAC faces.
>Duane McRuer (the Old Guy) whose technical papers I'd read was also
>the author of the Angeles Chapter Leader's Reference Book.
Yep I learned from him.
>If you hang out on trail these days with the Sierra Club, it's not
>unusual to hear people talking about the joys of Perl hacking (heard
>that last weekend) or using statistical filtering to combine multiple
>GPS tracks to improve the accuracy of a trail survey.
Yep, but the Silicon Valley is to the North, and Larry himself moved up
here after leaving the Lab as did I. And Levy covers this division.
>It's a very interesting world ... Cheers, Wolf.
In CA, yep.
--
Eugene Miya
>> >> varying backgrounds. She is right in that there are a large percentage
>> >> of urban dwellers who are far more depressed and far less happy that
>> >> people in the group.
>>
>> >than I would if I stayed at home in the city.
I noted:
>> I would say that only as a generalization.
>> You likely never had a fatality on one of your trips
>> or come close to.
In article <4srwd.1107279$Gx4.6...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>Martha
MH <bast...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>True, but then, you don't know the type of 'hood I live in, either. It's
>always good to get away.
Not yours, but
1) I grew up not far from Watts and did witness the Watts riots.
2) Robert Pelton writes a nice travel guide on visiting dangerous places.
The US rates 1 star as a calibration and LA and NYC get their own side bars.
That contrasts to 4 hands for North Korea (is that "adventure tourism?")
or 5 stars for places like the C.A.R. with wanton random violence (one
woman, growing up, who used to post here did cross over dead bodies).
His website is www.comebackalive.com .
So the range of behaviors are at least boundable.
We could toss out all kinds of human and animal bait to troll for opinions
about safety, fire arms, etc.
>I don't understand this. I'm not a feminist and I don't just have women as
>friends. How dull that would be. So, maybe I'm misunderstanding what you're
>saying here.
I'll start again.
I didn't say anything about feminism.
Some women here have complained that their experience trying to do trips
has gained people more interested in company than doing trips.
I suggest: keep looking.
>Also, getting to where one is going is a skill. You can climb all the
>mountains you want, but if you can't figure out a basic public
>transportation map, you're no good to me. A lot of outdoors types are lost
>in an urban area without their cars.
Navigation is a skill.
Younger cities in young countries like the US have relatively
rational urban layout policies. Other cities do not. They have
various reasons for this (commonly chronological and political).
3rd world country city layout is another matter, hell, an American
visiting England or Japan or NZ driving on the left and not knowing the
right-hand rule is in for a shock.
>> >I actually prefer traveling by myself. Sometimes I'll make a side trip
>> Flexibility is useful.
>
>Most certainly, probably the most important skill, that and being
>*streetwise*.
Do you have any specific streets on the brain?
>> >Actually, I've read (forgot where) than there are more women into
>> >adventure traveling than men. They can't all be going out in groups. : )
>>
>> I would tend to be suspect of that kind of information.
>> I would suspect that the men refused to answer.
>> As women outlive men, you guys will have plenty of time for solitude
>> later in life as well.
>
>Perhaps, but maybe there are other factors added into this. More women now
>have decided not to have families, more women are divorced, older women are
>paying more attention to their health; their could be lots of reasons.
I have had women bosses who decided against kids, and I know at least 3
couples getting divorced. But looking the world over, we still live in
a male dominated society (in particular white male). Travel books
generally target men with small subsections on women's travel or travel
subsections for the transgendered (with small specialty runs of books to
these groups [e.g., OReilly Travellers' Tales on women's tales].
Novice guys go on adventure travel.
--
MH
>
> MH <bast...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >True, but then, you don't know the type of 'hood I live in, either. It's
> >always good to get away.
>
> Not yours, but
> 1) I grew up not far from Watts and did witness the Watts riots.
> 2) Robert Pelton writes a nice travel guide on visiting dangerous places.
> The US rates 1 star as a calibration and LA and NYC get their own side
bars.
> That contrasts to 4 hands for North Korea (is that "adventure tourism?")
> or 5 stars for places like the C.A.R. with wanton random violence (one
> woman, growing up, who used to post here did cross over dead bodies).
> His website is www.comebackalive.com .
Interesting website, thanks.
>
> So the range of behaviors are at least boundable.
>
> We could toss out all kinds of human and animal bait to troll for opinions
> about safety, fire arms, etc.
>
> >I don't understand this. I'm not a feminist and I don't just have women
as
> >friends. How dull that would be. So, maybe I'm misunderstanding what
you're
> >saying here.
>
> I'll start again.
> I didn't say anything about feminism.
> Some women here have complained that their experience trying to do trips
> has gained people more interested in company than doing trips.
OK, I understand.
> I suggest: keep looking.
Yes, I try not to close out the posibilities, and I'll keep traveling and
adventuring while I do.
> >Also, getting to where one is going is a skill. You can climb all the
> >mountains you want, but if you can't figure out a basic public
> >transportation map, you're no good to me. A lot of outdoors types are
lost
> >in an urban area without their cars.
>
> Navigation is a skill.
>
> Younger cities in young countries like the US have relatively
> rational urban layout policies. Other cities do not. They have
> various reasons for this (commonly chronological and political).
> 3rd world country city layout is another matter, hell, an American
> visiting England or Japan or NZ driving on the left and not knowing the
> right-hand rule is in for a shock.
Or even trying to navigate public transportation in some American cities.
Even if it is existent, a lot of times it's difficult to find out about and
understand.
>
> >> >I actually prefer traveling by myself. Sometimes I'll make a side trip
> >> Flexibility is useful.
> >
> >Most certainly, probably the most important skill, that and being
> >*streetwise*.
>
> Do you have any specific streets on the brain?
>
: )
>
> >> >Actually, I've read (forgot where) than there are more women into
> >> >adventure traveling than men. They can't all be going out in groups.
: )
> >>
> >> I would tend to be suspect of that kind of information.
> >> I would suspect that the men refused to answer.
> >> As women outlive men, you guys will have plenty of time for solitude
> >> later in life as well.
> >
> >Perhaps, but maybe there are other factors added into this. More women
now
> >have decided not to have families, more women are divorced, older women
are
> >paying more attention to their health; their could be lots of reasons.
>
> I have had women bosses who decided against kids, and I know at least 3
> couples getting divorced. But looking the world over, we still live in
> a male dominated society (in particular white male). Travel books
> generally target men with small subsections on women's travel or travel
> subsections for the transgendered (with small specialty runs of books to
> these groups [e.g., OReilly Travellers' Tales on women's tales].
>
I read a book last year from the library (don't remember the name) about
four British women in the 1920s who formed a mountaineering club and tackled
a lot of peaks in Tibet and Nepal. It was really interesting.
> Novice guys go on adventure travel.
Good point.
Martha
>
> --
Pete Hickey
John Paul Minda <jpm...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>Oh. That must be why I have to brine the meat to make it soak up more
>water before I cook it. Or at least that is what I think I'm suposed to
>do, according to those cookin' shows on TV.
Do you use a syringe to inject the brine? It can work
good. They are easy to come across too... at least if you
live in a larger city. You can find them in most parks.
Just remember to rince them out once or twice before using it.
Eugene Miya
In article <2cDwd.1110721$Gx4.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
>Martha
MH <bast...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>Interesting website, thanks.
Lives near my sister.
>> So the range of behaviors are at least boundable.
>> Some women here have complained that their experience trying to do trips
>> has gained people more interested in company than doing trips.
>OK, I understand.
>> I suggest: keep looking.
>Yes, I try not to close out the possibilities, and I'll keep traveling and
>adventuring while I do.
Personally, I suggest avoiding adventures. They are to quote numerous
people "for novices."
If you want a hint where your odds are better, ask via email.
Despite what you may think about the composition of this group,
the people who post here, the people who lurk here for long periods of
time, tend to be a little fixated in their thinking, and tend not to use
other news groups in a useful manner. This group is somewhat insular
just like tourists/travellers. They kind of think that "this group
is them, or for them". Like so other groups and their populations.
And Usenet tends to be a little big and intimidates some newsbies.
>> >in an urban area without their cars.
>> Navigation is a skill.
>> Younger cities in young countries like the US have relatively
>> rational urban layout policies. Other cities do not. They have
>> various reasons for this (commonly chronological and political).
>> 3rd world country city layout is another matter, hell, an American
>> visiting England or Japan or NZ driving on the left and not knowing the
>> right-hand rule is in for a shock.
>
>Or even trying to navigate public transportation in some American cities.
>Even if it is existent, a lot of times it's difficult to find out about and
>understand.
The US is a big and still comparatively empty country.
>> >*streetwise*.
>> Do you have any specific streets on the brain?
>>
>: )
;^)
...
>> couples getting divorced. But looking the world over, we still live in
>> a male dominated society (in particular white male). Travel books
>> generally target men with small subsections on women's travel or travel
>> subsections for the transgendered (with small specialty runs of books to
>> these groups [e.g., OReilly Travellers' Tales on women's tales].
>>
>I read a book last year from the library (don't remember the name) about
>four British women in the 1920s who formed a mountaineering club and tackled
>a lot of peaks in Tibet and Nepal. It was really interesting.
I think I know the book which you refer.
The English language, especially in the US, is really deficient on
climbing literature. If you are really serious, and you find panel 28 or
panel 7 you can contact Michael Chessler, get his book catalog, and you can get
a sense of commerically available climbing literature. Michael mostly
will advertise the English language stuff, but he maxs out his credit
cards on his Europe trips for climbing books not available in the US
from Italy, France, and Germany.
>> Novice guys go on adventure travel.
>
>Good point.
Don't trust the gender to which I belong. But you already know this.
--
MH
> >> His website is www.comebackalive.com .
>
> In article <2cDwd.1110721$Gx4.1...@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
> >Martha
> MH <bast...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> >Interesting website, thanks.
>
> Lives near my sister.
>
> >> So the range of behaviors are at least boundable.
>
> >> Some women here have complained that their experience trying to do
trips
> >> has gained people more interested in company than doing trips.
> >OK, I understand.
> >> I suggest: keep looking.
> >Yes, I try not to close out the possibilities, and I'll keep traveling
and
> >adventuring while I do.
>
> Personally, I suggest avoiding adventures. They are to quote numerous
> people "for novices."
Huh???? Who said I was a novice? Certainly not me. I've traveled many places
and done many things. I think of every trip I've taken as an adventure,
don't you? Life is an adventure.
>
> If you want a hint where your odds are better, ask via email.
> Despite what you may think about the composition of this group,
> the people who post here, the people who lurk here for long periods of
> time, tend to be a little fixated in their thinking, and tend not to use
> other news groups in a useful manner. This group is somewhat insular
> just like tourists/travellers. They kind of think that "this group
> is them, or for them". Like so other groups and their populations.
> And Usenet tends to be a little big and intimidates some newsbies.
WTF??? I didn't ask anything. I merely commented on someone else's post. I'm
not looking for anything. I think you're confusing me with someone else.
Uh, yeah.... ; )
Martha
Gary S.
wrote:
>I read a book last year from the library (don't remember the name) about
>four British women in the 1920s who formed a mountaineering club and tackled
>a lot of peaks in Tibet and Nepal. It was really interesting.
>
There is a book by Rebecca Brown published a year or two ago about
early women mountaineers from the later 19th and early 20th centuries.
Some of the pictures in the Appalachian Mountain Club collection,
going back to the Club's founding in 1876 in Boston, show a
significant number of women climbing various New England peaks,
wearing long skirts down to the ankles.
Happy trails,
Gary (net.yogi.bear)
------------------------------------------------
at the 51st percentile of ursine intelligence
Gary D. Schwartz, Needham, MA, USA
Please reply to: garyDOTschwartzATpoboxDOTcom
Martha Hughes
"Gary S." <Idontwantspam@net> wrote in message
news:a417s014fccduq9ek...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 17 Dec 2004 15:47:10 GMT, "MH" <bast...@worldnet.att.net>
> wrote:
>
> >I read a book last year from the library (don't remember the name) about
> >four British women in the 1920s who formed a mountaineering club and
tackled
> >a lot of peaks in Tibet and Nepal. It was really interesting.
> >
> There is a book by Rebecca Brown published a year or two ago about
> early women mountaineers from the later 19th and early 20th centuries.
>
> Some of the pictures in the Appalachian Mountain Club collection,
> going back to the Club's founding in 1876 in Boston, show a
> significant number of women climbing various New England peaks,
> wearing long skirts down to the ankles.
I think it's fascinating to read about past history. In a previous SKI
magazine, they showed pictures of skiers from the 30s, with guys who wore
sweaters, white shirts and ties!
Martha
Eugene Miya
>Martha
MH <bast...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>"Eugene Miya" <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
>news:41c3281b$1@darkstar...
>> people "for novices."
>
>Huh???? Who said I was a novice? Certainly not me.
I didn't say that you were.
>I've traveled many places and done many things.
I can believe that.
The tone of your writing shows maturity and experience of sorts.
>I think of every trip I've taken as an adventure, don't you?
No.
I find that those tend to be rather costly.
>Life is an adventure.
Well that phrase is a bit, how is it spelled, clique? A generalization
like worse days doing something fun compared to best day doing work.
It's a romantic notion cultivated by certain writers.
A lead analyst at the CIA who briefed Kennedy used to point out that most
people never travel more than 25 miles from where they were born in their lives.
C.P. Snow exposited on the "life sucks" thesis in the 50s/60s in Two Cultures.
It's the wealthy who can afford to have "adventures."
>> If you want a hint where your odds are better, ask via email.
>> Despite what you may think about the composition of this group,
>> the people who post here, the people who lurk here for long periods of
>> time, tend to be a little fixated in their thinking, and tend not to use
>> other news groups in a useful manner. This group is somewhat insular
>> just like tourists/travellers. They kind of think that "this group
>> is them, or for them". Like so other groups and their populations.
>> And Usenet tends to be a little big and intimidates some newsbies.
>
>WTF??? I didn't ask anything. I merely commented on someone else's post.
>I'm not looking for anything. I think you're confusing me with someone else.
Nope.
Merely commenting on your comment.
Aunt Em has moved on.
...
>> cards on his Europe trips for climbing books not available in the US
>> from Italy, France, and Germany.
>>
>> >> Novice guys go on adventure travel.
>> >
>> >Good point.
>>
>> Don't trust the gender to which I belong. But you already know this.
>
>Uh, yeah.... ; )
And you don't have to attribute all the text in a post. ;^)
--
Eugene Miya
>> going back to the Club's founding in 1876 in Boston, show a
>> significant number of women climbing various New England peaks,
>> wearing long skirts down to the ankles.
In article <fFLwd.4348$uM5....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net>,
Martha Hughes <bast...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
>I think it's fascinating to read about past history. In a previous SKI
>magazine, they showed pictures of skiers from the 30s, with guys who wore
>sweaters, white shirts and ties!
You can see photos of guys in ties climbing in Chris Jones Climbing in
North America.
--
Erasmus
Ed Huesers wrote:
>>Auntie Em wrote:
>>
>>>Boy the quality of this ng has really gone down hill lately. How sad.
>>>It happens.
>
>
> Cyli wrote:
>
>>It certainly shouldn't be down. Not with wonderful posters like you
>>sharing their outdoor experiences and giving trip reports.
>
>
> Trip reports? You like those?
> Now I suppose you'll demand a report on the three night trip I'm
> doing today.
>
>
>>Nevermind...
>
>
> By,
>
> Ed Huesers
> http://www.grandshelters.com
Titillating...
jimbat
Erasmus
Shylah Leake wrote:
> BOY I SURE AM SLEPPY
>
And sloppy.
jimbat
mkt
[...]
> Back in the days of Joyce Chen, you could find a lot of the Cambridge
Shows me how long I've been gone, I hadn't realized she has passed
away. Her "Joyce Chen's Small Eating Place" was still in Central
Square when I was there, but closed a couple of years before I moved
away.
> geeks doing outdoorsy things.
One of my roommates was a mainstay in the MIT Outing Club. After he
graduated he moved out, last I heard, he'd broken his leg on Mt
McKinley.
Another roommate, a grad student, moved to LA to take a job at JPL.
Later I moved to Pasadena, and a couple of years later I encountered
him, hiking back from the "Bridge to Nowhere" while we were hiking to
it.
Orienteering tends to attract tech-y types too.
--MKT
Eugene Miya
mkt <tam...@oxy.edu> wrote:
>Wolf Leverich wrote:
>> Joyce Chen
>
>Shows me how long I've been gone, I hadn't realized she has passed
>away. Her "Joyce Chen's Small Eating Place" was still in Central
>Square when I was there, but closed a couple of years before I moved
>away.
Hey Mike, did your old man ever give you the hatakiri talk growing up?
>> geeks doing outdoorsy things.
>
>One of my roommates was a mainstay in the MIT Outing Club. After he
>graduated he moved out, last I heard, he'd broken his leg on Mt
>McKinley.
Find writings by Dave Roberts who was with the Harvard Mtn. Club:
Mountain of My Fear, Debroach a Wilderness Narrative, my favorite
is Moments of Doubt (short stories). Jon Kraukauer is his student.
>Another roommate, a grad student, moved to LA to take a job at JPL.
>Later I moved to Pasadena, and a couple of years later I encountered
>him, hiking back from the "Bridge to Nowhere" while we were hiking to
>it.
The Jet Lab has numerous outdoor clubs. The Hiking Club has a web site
and had 200 members at peak, and I stay in touch with a few friends,
some lurk. The Lab ski club had over 800 members including the Lab
director at that time (Bruce), and I've gone on ski trips with the
current lab Director when he was my group sup. But there was a sizeable
number of people who were completely unaffiliated. A fair number of
these guys who were Tech grads had contact with Chuck Wilts who wrote
and maintained the Tahquitz guidebook. So a lot of those guys were from
Caltech and their outdoor culture some of which goes back to Los Alamos
and the bomb.
>Orienteering tends to attract tech-y types too.
I'd be extreme careful attempting to make the smart people outdoors
connection. A large portion is blue collar, there are surfer culture
comparisons (the Vulgarians made fun of the AMC near where Gary lives).
Chris Jones' Climbing in NA contrasts the smart gentlemen from the
gritty full timers.
--
Gary S.
There are several outdoorsy subcultures, some of which have nothing
else in common. Techies are but one of them.
Interesting history behind the Vulgarians.
Eugene Miya
Gary S. <Idontwantspam@net> wrote:
>On 9 Jan 2005 23:07:53 -0800, eug...@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote:
>>In article <1105176921.7...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
>>mkt <tam...@oxy.edu> wrote:
>>>Orienteering tends to attract tech-y types too.
>>
>>I'd be extreme careful attempting to make the smart people outdoors
>>connection. A large portion is blue collar, there are surfer culture
>>comparisons (the Vulgarians made fun of the AMC near where Gary lives).
>>
>>Chris Jones' Climbing in NA contrasts the smart gentlemen from the
>>gritty full timers.
>
>There are several outdoorsy subcultures, some of which have nothing
>else in common. Techies are but one of them.
The climbers as intellectuals really got pushed in the US for the 1963
Everest expedition. And that had precursors with the UK first ascent in 1953.
It's a way of fund raising. The Americans raised a big deal of 1/3 the
guys having PhDs, 1/3 with MS/As, 3 MDs, etc. And Whittaker with a BA
gets up first.
A fair number of better climbers got left behind in the US.
It all sounds great for conquest.
...as I hammered in the last bolt and staggered over the rim,
it was not at all clear to me who was the conqueror and who was the conquered.
I do recall that El Cap seemed to be in much better condition that I was.
--Warren Harding, 1958
>Interesting history behind the Vulgarians.
Keeps the AMC more honest.
--
Chris Townsend
writes
>In article <gjp6u0t0lo3vd6prv...@4ax.com>,
>Gary S. <Idontwantspam@net> wrote:
>>On 9 Jan 2005 23:07:53 -0800, eug...@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote:
>>>In article <1105176921.7...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
>>>mkt <tam...@oxy.edu> wrote:
>>>>Orienteering tends to attract tech-y types too.
>>>
>>>I'd be extreme careful attempting to make the smart people outdoors
>>>connection. A large portion is blue collar, there are surfer culture
>>>comparisons (the Vulgarians made fun of the AMC near where Gary lives).
>>>
>>>Chris Jones' Climbing in NA contrasts the smart gentlemen from the
>>>gritty full timers.
>>
>>There are several outdoorsy subcultures, some of which have nothing
>>else in common. Techies are but one of them.
>
>The climbers as intellectuals really got pushed in the US for the 1963
>Everest expedition. And that had precursors with the UK first ascent in 1953.
>It's a way of fund raising.
Way before 1953 in the UK. Virtually all the pre 1953 climbers had
degrees from Oxford or Cambridge. Climbing was very much an
intellectuals pursuit.
>The Americans raised a big deal of 1/3 the
>guys having PhDs, 1/3 with MS/As, 3 MDs, etc. And Whittaker with a BA
>gets up first.
>
>A fair number of better climbers got left behind in the US.
>It all sounds great for conquest.
As they did previously in the UK. It began to change here after the 1953
expedition with Brown and Whillans.
>
>
>...as I hammered in the last bolt and staggered over the rim,
>it was not at all clear to me who was the conqueror and who was the conquered.
>I do recall that El Cap seemed to be in much better condition that I was.
> --Warren Harding, 1958
Mountaineers often dislike the conquest idea. The mass media loves it
though.
>
>
>>Interesting history behind the Vulgarians.
>
>Keeps the AMC more honest.
>
Interesting to read about that when I was in AMC territory.
Eugene Miya
>>Everest expedition. And that had precursors with the UK first ascent in 1953.
>>It's a way of fund raising.
In article <EEv74KL8...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
Chris Townsend <Ch...@DELETEauchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Way before 1953 in the UK. Virtually all the pre 1953 climbers had
Well Scott and Shackleton to the Poles. Mallory to Everest as
well as Smythe, Tilman, et al.
>degrees from Oxford or Cambridge.
>Climbing was very much an intellectuals pursuit.
I think "intellectuals" has been perpetrated by the media for various
reasons. A friend at Oxford ran the Cambridge Club and edited their
journal. But it belies the undocumented works by individuals outside
those centers of clubs. Clubs are marginal at best these days.
All very English. Imperial of them!
>>It all sounds great for conquest.
>
>As they did previously in the UK. It began to change here after the 1953
>expedition with Brown and Whillans.
Well, Haston had a philosophy degree, and he got hassled for it.
They were very good climbers for their era.
>>...as I hammered in the last bolt and staggered over the rim,
>>it was not at all clear to me who was the conqueror and who was the conquered.
>>I do recall that El Cap seemed to be in much better condition that I was.
>> --Warren Harding, 1958
>
>Mountaineers often dislike the conquest idea. The mass media loves it
>though.
I think in the past the people inside liked the idea of conquest.
It's lost worlds or unknown worlds vs. new worlds experience.
It kind of depends how one views imperialism I would guess.
So you think Mr. Blair will keep his job?
>>>Interesting history behind the Vulgarians.
>>Keeps the AMC more honest.
>Interesting to read about that when I was in AMC territory.
I have a copy of the Vulgarian digest from a friend.
But that's the East coast, or as Stannard said, the Eastern Trade.
Harding was quite a character. He was one of those who liked to knock
steeples down.
--
Chris Townsend
writes
>>>The climbers as intellectuals really got pushed in the US for the 1963
>>>Everest expedition. And that had precursors with the UK first ascent
>>>in 1953.
>>>It's a way of fund raising.
>
>In article <EEv74KL8...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@DELETEauchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>Way before 1953 in the UK. Virtually all the pre 1953 climbers had
> Well Scott and Shackleton to the Poles. Mallory to Everest as
> well as Smythe, Tilman, et al.
All intellectuals except, probably, Shackleton. Mallory, who went to
Cambridge, more than most. Tilman would have gone to university but for
the outbreak of the First World War - he is of course a post 53 climber
too.
Smythe was criticised because he lived off his writings which made him
almost a professional mountaineer. At that time amateurism ruled.
>>degrees from Oxford or Cambridge.
>>Climbing was very much an intellectuals pursuit.
>
>I think "intellectuals" has been perpetrated by the media for various
>reasons. A friend at Oxford ran the Cambridge Club and edited their
>journal. But it belies the undocumented works by individuals outside
>those centers of clubs. Clubs are marginal at best these days.
Clubs are a little more than marginal here. The Alpine Club and Scottish
Mountaineering Club still carry some weight. But in the early days of
mountaineering they were very important, though the two crucial
organisations were the Royal Geographical Society and the Mount Everest
Committee.
>All very English. Imperial of them!
Imperial indeed! Reaching the South Pole and climbing Everest were both
very tied up with the Empire (even though Mallory was quite left wing).
Two excellent books on this are Francis Spufford's
"I May Be Some Time: Ice and the English Imagination" and Robert
Macfarlane's "Mountains of the Mind".
>
>>>It all sounds great for conquest.
>>
>>As they did previously in the UK. It began to change here after the 1953
>>expedition with Brown and Whillans.
>
>Well, Haston had a philosophy degree, and he got hassled for it.
>They were very good climbers for their era.
Arguably the best.
Jim Perrin's biography of Whillans is due out soon.
>
>
>>>...as I hammered in the last bolt and staggered over the rim,
>>>it was not at all clear to me who was the conqueror and who was the
>>>conquered.
>>>I do recall that El Cap seemed to be in much better condition that I was.
>>> --Warren Harding, 1958
>>
>>Mountaineers often dislike the conquest idea. The mass media loves it
>>though.
>
>I think in the past the people inside liked the idea of conquest.
>It's lost worlds or unknown worlds vs. new worlds experience.
I think many people inside still do. There is a strong human urge to
explore.
>It kind of depends how one views imperialism I would guess.
The imperialism came in with the nationalism. Britain's "right" to
Everest and the South Pole, Germany's "right" to Nanga Parbat.
>So you think Mr. Blair will keep his job?
Yes. There's no credible opposition.
>
>
>>>>Interesting history behind the Vulgarians.
>>>Keeps the AMC more honest.
>>Interesting to read about that when I was in AMC territory.
>
>I have a copy of the Vulgarian digest from a friend.
>But that's the East coast, or as Stannard said, the Eastern Trade.
>
>Harding was quite a character. He was one of those who liked to knock
>steeples down.
>
I've read about him.
Eugene Miya
Chris Townsend <Ch...@DELETEauchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>climbers as intellectuals
>> well as Smythe, Tilman, et al.
>
>All intellectuals except, probably, Shackleton.
The naval officer corps can be consider intellectuals.
>Mallory, who went to
>Cambridge, more than most. Tilman would have gone to university but for
>the outbreak of the First World War - he is of course a post 53 climber
>too.
>
>Smythe was criticised because he lived off his writings which made him
>almost a professional mountaineer. At that time amateurism ruled.
He was clearly entrepeneural. Well you know the Olympics had certain
"rules" as well. We had Stimson.
"Gentlemen do not read each other's mail."
Sec. of State Henry Stimson
"In 1929, the world was striving with good will for everlasting peace
..as a gentleman with the gentlemen sent as ambassadors and minister
from friendly nations.
"In 1940, Europe was at war, and the United States was on the verge."
Sec. of War Henry Stimson
David Kahn, The Code Breakers
, The Reader of Gentleman's Mail
>>journal. But it belies the undocumented works by individuals outside
>>those centers of clubs. Clubs are marginal at best these days.
>
>Clubs are a little more than marginal here. The Alpine Club and Scottish
>Mountaineering Club still carry some weight. But in the early days of
>mountaineering they were very important, though the two crucial
>organisations were the Royal Geographical Society and the Mount Everest
>Committee.
Oh yea, the AC and SMC do have published books in the USA.
The MEC has to deal with the property and specifically IP for Everest.
>>All very English. Imperial of them!
>
>Imperial indeed! Reaching the South Pole and climbing Everest were both
>very tied up with the Empire (even though Mallory was quite left wing).
>Two excellent books on this are Francis Spufford's
>"I May Be Some Time: Ice and the English Imagination" and Robert
>Macfarlane's "Mountains of the Mind".
most Brits apparently believed that they were ushering in a
golden age --certain not only that their system was the best
the world had known, but that it was divinely intended.
-- Elizabeth Arthur
I think Huntsford's book is popular.
>>>expedition with Brown and Whillans.
>>Well, Haston had a philosophy degree,
>Arguably the best.
At the time.
But remember that Reinhold was doing his thing as well.
And people know less of his accomplishments solely because of language
differences.
>Jim Perrin's biography of Whillans is due out soon.
I like Perrin's writing.
>>>>...as I hammered in the last bolt and staggered over the rim,
>>>>it was not at all clear to me who was the conqueror and who was the
>>>>conquered.
>>>>I do recall that El Cap seemed to be in much better condition that I was.
>>>> --Warren Harding, 1958
>
>I think many people inside still do. There is a strong human urge to
>explore.
Gross.
>The imperialism came in with the nationalism. Britain's "right" to
>Everest and the South Pole, Germany's "right" to Nanga Parbat.
I suppose so.
>>So you think Mr. Blair will keep his job?
>Yes. There's no credible opposition.
Oh well, did not swing by Downing St. in Oct. Did see Parliament.
And Vauxhall.
>>Harding was quite a character.
>I've read about him.
Knowing him was interesting.
He was short compared to many people.
Drank too much, but he knew that.
--
Chris Townsend
>In article <V+6fmbRo...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@DELETEauchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>climbers as intellectuals
>>> Well Scott and Shackleton to the Poles. Mallory to Everest as
>>> well as Smythe, Tilman, et al.
>>
>>All intellectuals except, probably, Shackleton.
>
>The naval officer corps can be consider intellectuals.
>
>>Mallory, who went to
>>Cambridge, more than most. Tilman would have gone to university but for
>>the outbreak of the First World War - he is of course a post 53 climber
>>too.
>>
>>Smythe was criticised because he lived off his writings which made him
>>almost a professional mountaineer. At that time amateurism ruled.
>
>He was clearly entrepeneural. Well you know the Olympics had certain
>"rules" as well. We had Stimson.
Bonington was still being criticised in the sixties for being
commercial, hence Patey's "Onward Christian Bonington".
>
>
>"Gentlemen do not read each other's mail."
> Sec. of State Henry Stimson
>"In 1929, the world was striving with good will for everlasting peace
>..as a gentleman with the gentlemen sent as ambassadors and minister
>from friendly nations.
>"In 1940, Europe was at war, and the United States was on the verge."
> Sec. of War Henry Stimson
> David Kahn, The Code Breakers
> , The Reader of Gentleman's Mail
He sounds very "British", pre World War II.
There was a strong feeling that the affairs of Empire should be
conducted in a gentlemanly man as if "on the playing fields of Eton".
Hence the "Great Game", the ramifications of which are still being
worked out.
>
>
>>>journal. But it belies the undocumented works by individuals outside
>>>those centers of clubs. Clubs are marginal at best these days.
>>
>>Clubs are a little more than marginal here. The Alpine Club and Scottish
>>Mountaineering Club still carry some weight. But in the early days of
>>mountaineering they were very important, though the two crucial
>>organisations were the Royal Geographical Society and the Mount Everest
>>Committee.
>
>Oh yea, the AC and SMC do have published books in the USA.
>The MEC has to deal with the property and specifically IP for Everest.
The MEC is still important but up to 53 it controlled Everest
expeditions and could make or break mountaineers reputations.
>
>>>All very English. Imperial of them!
>>
>>Imperial indeed! Reaching the South Pole and climbing Everest were both
>>very tied up with the Empire (even though Mallory was quite left wing).
>>Two excellent books on this are Francis Spufford's
>>"I May Be Some Time: Ice and the English Imagination" and Robert
>>Macfarlane's "Mountains of the Mind".
>
>most Brits apparently believed that they were ushering in a
>golden age --certain not only that their system was the best
>the world had known, but that it was divinely intended.
> -- Elizabeth Arthur
Sounds like some Americans today!
That certainly was the view of many Victorians.
>
>I think Huntsford's book is popular.
There have been some revisionist books since, reinstating Scott as hero.
Ranulph Fiennes wrote a popular one recently.
I like Huntford. His books on Shackleton and Nansen are excellent.
>
>
>>>>expedition with Brown and Whillans.
>>>Well, Haston had a philosophy degree,
>>Arguably the best.
>
>At the time.
>
>But remember that Reinhold was doing his thing as well.
>And people know less of his accomplishments solely because of language
>differences.
He is well known here in mountaineering circles. Many of his books have
been translated. Of course he's a huge superstar in alpine countries
(less so in France than the others) and many British climbers go to the
Alps.
>
>>Jim Perrin's biography of Whillans is due out soon.
>
>I like Perrin's writing.
He is very good. His biography of Menlove Edwards - regarded as the
greatest British pre WWII rock climber - is superb so I have high hopes
for the Whillans one.
>
>>>>>...as I hammered in the last bolt and staggered over the rim,
>>>>>it was not at all clear to me who was the conqueror and who was the
>>>>>conquered.
>>>>>I do recall that El Cap seemed to be in much better condition that I was.
>>>>> --Warren Harding, 1958
>>
>>I think many people inside still do. There is a strong human urge to
>>explore.
>
>Gross.
Me. And many others.
>
>
>>The imperialism came in with the nationalism. Britain's "right" to
>>Everest and the South Pole, Germany's "right" to Nanga Parbat.
>
>I suppose so.
They were certainly tied in together. Polar explorers and alpine
mountaineers were seen as patriotic heroes. "Flying the flag" was
significant.
>
>
>>>So you think Mr. Blair will keep his job?
>>Yes. There's no credible opposition.
>
>Oh well, did not swing by Downing St. in Oct. Did see Parliament.
>And Vauxhall.
I've never seen Vauxhall.
I have yet to visit the new Scottish Parliament.
>
>>>Harding was quite a character.
>>I've read about him.
>
>Knowing him was interesting.
>He was short compared to many people.
>Drank too much, but he knew that.
He sounds like Whillans.
>
Eugene Miya
Chris Townsend <Ch...@DELETEauchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>entrepeneural.
>
>Bonington was still being criticised in the sixties for being
>commercial, hence Patey's "Onward Christian Bonington".
Oh yes definitely, and he wrote aboutfeeling pangs about doing it.
Rowell and other do and did it as well.
>>"Gentlemen do not read each other's mail."
>> Sec. of State Henry Stimson
>
>He sounds very "British", pre World War II.
Kahn feels Puritan as the right adjective at the time.
>There was a strong feeling that the affairs of Empire should be
>conducted in a gentlemanly man as if "on the playing fields of Eton".
>Hence the "Great Game", the ramifications of which are still being
>worked out.
Oh, yeah, but that was a dirty secret.
If you were white, male like the Chinese during the Opium War,
one's opinions didn't count. The world has not changed much.
>>>organisations were the Royal Geographical Society and the Mount Everest
>>>Committee.
>
>The MEC is still important but up to 53 it controlled Everest
>expeditions and could make or break mountaineers reputations.
Still does in a way, so quite true.
>>>>All very English. Imperial of them!
>>>
>>>Imperial indeed! Reaching the South Pole and climbing Everest were both
>>>very tied up with the Empire (even though Mallory was quite left wing).
>>>Two excellent books on this are Francis Spufford's
>>>"I May Be Some Time: Ice and the English Imagination" and Robert
>>>Macfarlane's "Mountains of the Mind".
>>
>>most Brits apparently believed that they were ushering in a
>>golden age --certain not only that their system was the best
>>the world had known, but that it was divinely intended.
>> -- Elizabeth Arthur
>
>Sounds like some Americans today!
Sadly true.
Our country is your's child.
>That certainly was the view of many Victorians.
>>
>>I think Huntsford's book is popular.
>
>There have been some revisionist books since, reinstating Scott as hero.
>Ranulph Fiennes wrote a popular one recently.
Yeah, I inherited a copy of Ran's book.
He was there the year before I went down.
>I like Huntford. His books on Shackleton and Nansen are excellent.
I have only seen them from a distance. Too much reading.
I have to read a Linux book review...
>>But remember that Reinhold was doing his thing as well.
>>And people know less of his accomplishments solely because of language
>>differences.
>
>He is well known here in mountaineering circles. Many of his books have
>been translated. Of course he's a huge superstar in alpine countries
>(less so in France than the others) and many British climbers go to the
>Alps.
He is known because he embarassed those circles.
He said what he would do, and accomplished them.
"Many" is clearly the wrong word. In discussing the publishing
industry with Chessler, Michael points out that about about 25% of
Reinhold's books received translation into English.
>>>Jim Perrin's biography of Whillans is due out soon.
>>I like Perrin's writing.
>
>He is very good. His biography of Menlove Edwards - regarded as the
>greatest British pre WWII rock climber - is superb so I have high hopes
>for the Whillans one.
Sad about him and Noyce as well.
>>>>>>...as I hammered in the last bolt and staggered over the rim,
>>>>>>it was not at all clear to me who was the conqueror and who was the
>>>>>>conquered.
>>>>>>I do recall that El Cap seemed to be in much better condition that I was.
>>>>>> --Warren Harding, 1958
>>>
>>>I think many people inside still do. There is a strong human urge to
>>>explore.
>>Gross.
>
>Me. And many others.
>>
>>
>>>The imperialism came in with the nationalism. Britain's "right" to
>>>Everest and the South Pole, Germany's "right" to Nanga Parbat.
>>
>>I suppose so.
>
>They were certainly tied in together. Polar explorers and alpine
>mountaineers were seen as patriotic heroes. "Flying the flag" was
>significant.
Yeah and they were crummy skiers, too!
>>>>So you think Mr. Blair will keep his job?
>>>Yes. There's no credible opposition.
>>Oh well, did not swing by Downing St. in Oct. Did see Parliament.
>>And Vauxhall.
>
>I've never seen Vauxhall.
I think that Pierce B. and James Bond broke thru a wall in Living Day
Lights. I have to check. Very omminous looking building. Many
exterior cameras. You can google image search it.
>I have yet to visit the new Scottish Parliament.
Nice?
I am not clear that I will ever get back to Edinbourgh.
>>>>Harding was quite a character.
>>Drank too much, but he knew that.
>He sounds like Whillans.
He was more a white collar civil engineer than the plumber.
--
Chris Townsend
writes
>In article <VJ4vLzDi...@auchnarrow.demon.co.uk>,
>Chris Townsend <Ch...@DELETEauchnarrow.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>entrepeneural.
>>>"rules" as well. We had Stimson.
>>
>>Bonington was still being criticised in the sixties for being
>>commercial, hence Patey's "Onward Christian Bonington".
>
>Oh yes definitely, and he wrote aboutfeeling pangs about doing it.
>Rowell and other do and did it as well.
There are many professional outdoors people these days (including
myself). I don't think many have pangs about it. I doubt Bonington does.
>
>
>>>"Gentlemen do not read each other's mail."
>>> Sec. of State Henry Stimson
>>
>>He sounds very "British", pre World War II.
>
>Kahn feels Puritan as the right adjective at the time.
Stoical, certainly. Stiff upper lip and all that.
>
>>There was a strong feeling that the affairs of Empire should be
>>conducted in a gentlemanly man as if "on the playing fields of Eton".
>>Hence the "Great Game", the ramifications of which are still being
>>worked out.
>
>Oh, yeah, but that was a dirty secret.
The reality was a secret. The desire to compete with Russia was a
patriotic rallying cry.
>If you were white, male like the Chinese during the Opium War,
>one's opinions didn't count. The world has not changed much.
If you were anything other than English, white, male and upper class
your opinions didn't count before the twentieth century.
The world has changed a bit.
>
>
>>>>organisations were the Royal Geographical Society and the Mount Everest
>>>>Committee.
>>
>>The MEC is still important but up to 53 it controlled Everest
>>expeditions and could make or break mountaineers reputations.
>
>Still does in a way, so quite true.
>
>
>>>>>All very English. Imperial of them!
>>>>
>>>>Imperial indeed! Reaching the South Pole and climbing Everest were both
>>>>very tied up with the Empire (even though Mallory was quite left wing).
>>>>Two excellent books on this are Francis Spufford's
>>>>"I May Be Some Time: Ice and the English Imagination" and Robert
>>>>Macfarlane's "Mountains of the Mind".
>>>
>>>most Brits apparently believed that they were ushering in a
>>>golden age --certain not only that their system was the best
>>>the world had known, but that it was divinely intended.
>>> -- Elizabeth Arthur
>>
>>Sounds like some Americans today!
>
>Sadly true.
>Our country is your's child.
Partly. There are other influences.
>
>
>>That certainly was the view of many Victorians.
>>>
>>>I think Huntsford's book is popular.
>>
>>There have been some revisionist books since, reinstating Scott as hero.
>>Ranulph Fiennes wrote a popular one recently.
>
>Yeah, I inherited a copy of Ran's book.
>
>He was there the year before I went down.
>
>>I like Huntford. His books on Shackleton and Nansen are excellent.
>
>I have only seen them from a distance. Too much reading.
>I have to read a Linux book review...
Too much reading indeed. Just finished Fortey's The Earth and have
Dawkins The Ancestor's Tale waiting. And lots of checking Scottish hill
books for my own writing.
>
>
>>>But remember that Reinhold was doing his thing as well.
>>>And people know less of his accomplishments solely because of language
>>>differences.
>>
>>He is well known here in mountaineering circles. Many of his books have
>>been translated. Of course he's a huge superstar in alpine countries
>>(less so in France than the others) and many British climbers go to the
>>Alps.
>
>He is known because he embarassed those circles.
>He said what he would do, and accomplished them.
>"Many" is clearly the wrong word. In discussing the publishing
>industry with Chessler, Michael points out that about about 25% of
>Reinhold's books received translation into English.
25% is still quite a few. I didn't say most :-).
I have several of them.
>
>
>>>>Jim Perrin's biography of Whillans is due out soon.
>>>I like Perrin's writing.
>>
>>He is very good. His biography of Menlove Edwards - regarded as the
>>greatest British pre WWII rock climber - is superb so I have high hopes
>>for the Whillans one.
>
>Sad about him and Noyce as well.
Menlove seems almost the classic "tortured soul".
>
>
>>>>>>>...as I hammered in the last bolt and staggered over the rim,
>>>>>>>it was not at all clear to me who was the conqueror and who was the
>>>>>>>conquered.
>>>>>>>I do recall that El Cap seemed to be in much better condition that I was.
>>>>>>> --Warren Harding, 1958
>>>>
>>>>I think many people inside still do. There is a strong human urge to
>>>>explore.
>>>Gross.
>>
>>Me. And many others.
>>>
>>>
>>>>The imperialism came in with the nationalism. Britain's "right" to
>>>>Everest and the South Pole, Germany's "right" to Nanga Parbat.
>>>
>>>I suppose so.
>>
>>They were certainly tied in together. Polar explorers and alpine
>>mountaineers were seen as patriotic heroes. "Flying the flag" was
>>significant.
>
>Yeah and they were crummy skiers, too!
They could barely ski at all.
>
>>>>>So you think Mr. Blair will keep his job?
>>>>Yes. There's no credible opposition.
>>>Oh well, did not swing by Downing St. in Oct. Did see Parliament.
>>>And Vauxhall.
>>
>>I've never seen Vauxhall.
>
>I think that Pierce B. and James Bond broke thru a wall in Living Day
>Lights. I have to check. Very omminous looking building. Many
>exterior cameras. You can google image search it.
I've seen pictures.
>
>
>>I have yet to visit the new Scottish Parliament.
>
>Nice?
Interesting at least. A very expensive new building. You can google for
this too.
>I am not clear that I will ever get back to Edinbourgh.
I'm not clear I will though I guess it's likely.
>
>>>>>Harding was quite a character.
>>>Drank too much, but he knew that.
>>He sounds like Whillans.
>
>He was more a white collar civil engineer than the plumber.
I was more thinking of the drinking and the character.
Whillans was never a plumber for long. And he certainly exploited his
working class credentials.
>
mkt
Eugene Miya wrote:
> In article <1105176921.7...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
> mkt <tam...@oxy.edu> wrote:
> >Wolf Leverich wrote:
[...]
> Hey Mike, did your old man ever give you the hatakiri talk growing
up?
Naw, we were/are pretty assimilated.
[...]
> Find writings by Dave Roberts who was with the Harvard Mtn. Club:
> Mountain of My Fear, Debroach a Wilderness Narrative, my favorite
> is Moments of Doubt (short stories). Jon Kraukauer is his student.
I actually try to avoid mountaineering writing, but someone gave me
_Into Thin Air_ as a present, and Krakauer is such a riveting writer (I
first came across him by seeing his article in _Outside_ magazine,
which eventually became _Into the Wild_) that I ended up reading it
anyway. If Roberts' writing is less about Mountains and more about
Wilderness, or Doubt (I'm just going from the titles you list), then I
will check it out.
[...]
> and maintained the Tahquitz guidebook. So a lot of those guys were
from
> Caltech and their outdoor culture some of which goes back to Los
Alamos
> and the bomb.
I may simply not be encountering the right Tech types, but I haven't
come across a lot of backcountry types there. Well that's not quite
true, I hiked up Mt. Whitney with some just this summer, one of whom
helps run the Outing Club or whatever they call it (actually she had to
drop out at the last minute when her advisor decided to have her write
a grant application); and I think Tom Chester, who has created a
massive website about hiking in the San Gabriels, had or had a Caltech
connection http://tchester.org/index.html. Maybe it's more the grad
students who get out there, than the undergrads.
> >Orienteering tends to attract tech-y types too.
>
> I'd be extreme careful attempting to make the smart people outdoors
> connection. A large portion is blue collar, there are surfer culture
> comparisons (the Vulgarians made fun of the AMC near where Gary
lives).
Outdoors in general, yeah (there's the immigrant families who picnic
along the San Gabriel River on weekends; and the demographics of
amateur goldminers in Southern Calif would probably be interesting -- a
few are probably white collar professionals who view it as a hobby
similar to home brewing of beer, but others whom I've encountered seem
to be the types who are using goldmining as a seasonal supplement to
income from their meth labs).
But for orienteering specifically, I'd say it's a fairly narrow
demographic there, in terms of socio-economic and educational status.
--MKT
Eugene Miya
>> Hey Mike, did your old man ever give you the hatakiri talk growing up?
In article <1106260752.0...@c13g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
mkt <tam...@oxy.edu> wrote:
>Naw, we were/are pretty assimilated.
Ah!
>> Find writings by Dave Roberts who was with the Harvard Mtn. Club:
>> Mountain of My Fear, Debroach a Wilderness Narrative, my favorite
>> is Moments of Doubt (short stories). Jon Kraukauer is his student.
>
>I actually try to avoid mountaineering writing, but someone gave me
>_Into Thin Air_ as a present, and Krakauer is such a riveting writer (I
>first came across him by seeing his article in _Outside_ magazine,
>which eventually became _Into the Wild_) that I ended up reading it
>anyway. If Roberts' writing is less about Mountains and more about
>Wilderness, or Doubt (I'm just going from the titles you list), then I
>will check it out.
I found Air a little boring. It's about novices stumbling around.
Wilderness is about Robert's friendship with Don Jensen who later died
from a car-bike accident in Scotland. But I really lietk Doubt.
He has also written Escape Routes.
>> Caltech and their outdoor culture some of which goes back to Los
>>Alamos and the bomb.
>
>I may simply not be encountering the right Tech types, but I haven't
>come across a lot of backcountry types there. Well that's not quite
>true, I hiked up Mt. Whitney with some just this summer, one of whom
>helps run the Outing Club or whatever they call it (actually she had to
>drop out at the last minute when her advisor decided to have her write
>a grant application); and I think Tom Chester, who has created a
>massive website about hiking in the San Gabriels, had or had a Caltech
>connection http://tchester.org/index.html. Maybe it's more the grad
>students who get out there, than the undergrads.
I'm not sure what you are looking for.
It's a small place. Looking for women nerds is not generally a good
idea (I know this by chance from personal experience). I can suggest
say Monday afternoon seminars in South Mudd, or maybe some of the field
bio people, etc.
>> >Orienteering tends to attract tech-y types too.
>> I'd be extreme careful attempting to make the smart people outdoors
>> connection. A large portion is blue collar, there are surfer culture
>> comparisons (the Vulgarians made fun of the AMC near where Gary
>lives).
>
>Outdoors in general, yeah (there's the immigrant families who picnic
>along the San Gabriel River on weekends; and the demographics of
>amateur goldminers in Southern Calif would probably be interesting -- a
>few are probably white collar professionals who view it as a hobby
>similar to home brewing of beer, but others whom I've encountered seem
>to be the types who are using goldmining as a seasonal supplement to
>income from their meth labs).
I know a couple. Not my thing.
>But for orienteering specifically, I'd say it's a fairly narrow
>demographic there, in terms of socio-economic and educational status.
Officer/enlisted distinction.
--