High-tech camping
DC
The list author says: "We live in a digital world. Even camping has
entered the digital age as there is now a ton of gear that makes it
easy to bring your digital lifestyle right out on the trail with you.
With solar power now at our fingertips, there is really no limit to
what you can bring out on the trail. We are also seeing some big
advances in industrial design and the materials used in such products.
Today's camping gear is really on the cutting edge. These are some of
my favorite items currently available."
Continued: http://tr.im/HTcamping
hlil...@juno.com
wrote:
> Amazon.com Listmania!
>
> The list author says: "We live in a digital world. Even camping has
> entered the digital age as there is now a ton of gear that makes it
> easy to bring your digital lifestyle right out on the trail with you.
What can you find in most camping stores? The most modern sleeping
bags and packable mattresses. Tents made of the latest materials. High
tech water purifiers. Global Positioning System devices. The newest
camp stoves. It's interesting how much technology it takes nowadays to
get back to nature. (from my blog at
http://hallillywhite.blogspot.com/search?q=back+to+nature)
David Kaye
>What can you find in most camping stores? The most modern sleeping
>bags and packable mattresses. Tents made of the latest materials. High
>tech water purifiers. Global Positioning System devices. The newest
>camp stoves. [....]
How much do we want to go back to the old days? In prior generations, tents
were made of canvas and were very heavy to carry. You also had to waterproof
them with oil or they'd leak like crazy. This made them messy. And it was
even worse if you didn't waterproof the tent and had to pack up and carry a
soggy tent, which probably weighed twice as much as a dry one.
y_p_w
I guess modern materials (nylon/polyester, silicone coatings/sealants,
special aluminum alloys, carbon fiber) are one thing where it's just a
variation on what's just a tent. I'm pretty sure that the first
successful ascent of Everest involved synthetic fabrics since they
were lighter and performed better. Gas or liquid fueled stoves have
been around since forever. Air mattresses of one type or another have
also been around for years.
Now electronics are a completely different matter. Iodine or chlorine
compounds have been used to disinfect water for years. An electronic
UV disinfection pen is notably different. GPS brings electronics into
the picture, but how different is that from a map and compass?
hlil...@juno.com
> >What can you find in most camping stores? The most modern sleeping
> >bags and packable mattresses. Tents made of the latest materials. High
> >tech water purifiers. Global Positioning System devices. The newest
> >camp stoves. [....]
>
> How much do we want to go back to the old days?
Actually I wouldn't but I do notice the irony of needing all that
stuff to "get back to nature."
family-outdoors
It is easy to get carried away with all the crap you do not need and
one has to sort thru the hype as to what gear really is an
improvement. It certainly is not necessary to spend big bucks to get
out there. I do have most of the crap that is on the upper end and
find myself just throwing in my solo tent and one burner stove and as
little additional stuff as is necessary.
Ben Crowell
I love having GPS, for example, as a backup, even if I only use it once
in three trips. Last summer my daughter got really drenched in some
nasty brown water when we were in a boggy area. She was a good
sport about it, but it was very comforting to be able to check the
GPS and make sure that we were heading in the right direction and
were more or less in the right place.
I don't really see how equipment from 1959 would be more natural than
equipment from 2009. If you want to go really natural, I guess the
way to go would be to carry chipped flint knives, and refrain from
bringing sanitary napkins. Maybe refrain from using a map, since
writing is a modern and unnatural invention.
David Kaye
>Now electronics are a completely different matter. Iodine or chlorine
>compounds have been used to disinfect water for years. An electronic
>UV disinfection pen is notably different. GPS brings electronics into
>the picture, but how different is that from a map and compass?
I'm one of those people who prefers to get away from things, which is one of
the reasons I'm not much into Burning Man anymore. When it was isolation it
was fine. But now that people do webcasts and run radio stations on the playa
it certainly takes away from the experience.
David Kaye
>Actually I wouldn't but I do notice the irony of needing all that
>stuff to "get back to nature."
Some black folks I know have an interesting take on the whole camping thing:
"Why should we go back to being outside when we've struggled for so many
generations to get inside?"
That said, I like simplicity myself, and unlike a lot of my brethren can
easily live for extended periods without Internet, cell phones, radio, etc.
Why...there's this 15th Century technology called the book...
family-outdoors
And now some people have to put those 15th Century inventions on
electronic devices as well...blah!
Of course we are pointing these things out via computer...not smoke
signals.
Stormin Mormon
Great comment on so many generations to get indoors.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"David Kaye" <sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hgfd6q$9v8$3...@news.eternal-september.org...
GregS
I find I have to waterproof all my MODERN tents.
greg
nothermark
1959 would not be a big change. 1909 would be. For most folks pack
weights have gone up with gadgets over the years. Low impack cost
weight.
Moderate
One of the people I backpack with brings his IPOD with speakers. I nearly
threw it in the fire.
GregS
If I backpacked, I would be taking a cell phone, Ham Radio's and FRS tranceivers, maybe even a CB.
greg
Leythos
@yahoo.com says...
> That said, I like simplicity myself, and unlike a lot of my brethren can
> easily live for extended periods without Internet, cell phones, radio, etc.
> Why...there's this 15th Century technology called the book...
>
Some of us could not go camping if we were not able to provide
support/contact for clients. In my case, when I go camping I have to
take a small generator, cell phone that permits wireless access and my
laptop. While I almost never have to use it, if I wasn't able to connect
I would not be able to go camping. We don't take a TV, but we do take a
crank powered weather radio - we tent camp only and don't use electric,
even if the site has it... We normally bring in our own water, but we
setup three large tents and even a shower tent for the long trips....
Sometimes you have to be able to be reached in order to take the time to
go camping.
--
You can't trust your best friends, your five senses, only the little
voice inside you that most civilians don't even hear -- Listen to that.
Trust yourself.
spam9...@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)
Stormin Mormon
w2XLK, I have a moose ahead, stand by. Breaker one nine!
Moose! Moose! This is rubber ducky, over!; Mom? you still
there? I, like moose, hang on I'll camera phone it for you.
I'll text you if we get disconnected."
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"GregS" <zekf...@zekfrivolous.com> wrote in message
news:hggoh4$c2j$2...@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu...
Stormin Mormon
you. Or, you need to train two subordinates, each can do
half your job.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Leythos" <spam9...@rrohio.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.2595b5e85...@us.news.astraweb.com...
family-outdoors
> In article <hgfd6q$9v...@news.eternal-september.org>, sfdavidkaye2
Fair enough. Guess there is nothing inherently wrong with
technology. The issue for me, and me only, is that I want as little
between me and the experience I desire as is possible. If I truly
could not go without these things, I would reluctantly take them. As
has been mentioned, all of this is on a continuum. No one has stated
they would ride their horse or not go at all. No one has said that
man made tent materials are objectionable. My folks utilize an RV and
that is an adventure for them. To each his own. On my site I have a
gear list that includes a lot of gear that I choose not to bring...but
that is just me.
I choose to camp where generators do not drown out the sounds I wish
to hear...one spot we often go usually has us awakened in the night by
the howling of coyotes. I love that sound.
All the Best.
Paul
www.family-outdoors.com
Leythos
a34a46...@c3g2000yqd.googlegroups.com>, pama...@gmail.com says...
> I choose to camp where generators do not drown out the sounds I wish
> to hear...one spot we often go usually has us awakened in the night by
> the howling of coyotes. I love that sound.
>
I agree, but I would only use the generator IF the solar and battery box
was drained.
While I've been places where people have LOUD generators running all
week/weekend, I've rarely gone back to those areas - my worst abuse of
the quiet was 20 minutes in the middle of a Sunday AM - had the SUV
running to keep the inverter working.
--
You can't trust your best friends, your five senses, only the little
voice inside you that most civilians don't even hear -- Listen to that.
Trust yourself.
spam9...@rrohio.com (remove 999 for proper email address)
Leythos
**spamblock##@hotmail.com says...
> Must be a very demanding job, if they can't live without
> you. Or, you need to train two subordinates, each can do
> half your job.
>
I own the company and have certain skills that none of the others have
for the near future, crappy, but we pay our bills and make a profit.
Stormin Mormon
target for government regulation. It is not fair that others
should have more than the masses. Chairman Maobama has said
it. Or things similar to that.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Leythos" <spam9...@rrohio.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.2595f1212...@us.news.astraweb.com...
Wolf Leverich
> Now days, Comrade Leythos, making a profit also makes you a
> target for government regulation. It is not fair that others
> should have more than the masses. Chairman Maobama has said
> it. Or things similar to that.
Ah, horsefeathers.
I've been doing the entrepreneur thing for a very long time.
If you're small and government regulations are causing you
troubles, then you oughta go back to work for MegaCorp
because you just flat do not have the skills to do your own
business.
The government problem isn't regulation; it's lack of
regulation of incumbent monopolies.
Why does healthcare cost my company twice what any of my
overseas competitors pay? God bless our exempted-from-
antitrust medical monopolies.
Why does my commercial Internet bandwidth cost more than
my overseas competitors? God bless the Bush "Justice"
Department, that OKed a serious of obviously anti-competitive
telecom mergers.
Why is my banking obscenely expensive? God bless the Bush
and Obama administrations. Instead of letting an industry
that is both rapacious and incompetent collapse, they blessed
these bozos as "too big to fail" and have showered economic
rewards on them despite their utter worthlessness.
I'd cheerfully suck up 10 times as much regulatory hassle as
I have to deal with now -- in fact, literally 100 times -- if
the goddam Federal government would simply use the Sherman
anti-trust act and enforce competitive market behavior on the
MegaCorps from which I'm stuck buying goods and services.
Cheers, Wolf.
Glenn Holliday
GPS can sometimes give you more accurate information
about where you are on the map. When that happens,
it is a good thing.
When I trained in GPS they handed out 8 units to the
class. Only 2 of them actually got a fix on their
satellites. It was a good reminder that we had to add
GPS as a layer on top of good map and compass skills.
--
Glenn Holliday holl...@acm.org
David Kaye
>Some of us could not go camping if we were not able to provide
>support/contact for clients. In my case, when I go camping I have to
>take a small generator, cell phone that permits wireless access and my
>laptop.
One of the reasons I have been working for myself these past 8 years is
because when I want to get away I can get away. When I'm away my tech support
clients simply have to get someone else. I'm not going to worry about them.
Used to be that people had 8 to 5 jobs and left them behind when they went
home. I remember those days. Since cell phones and the Internet have become
ubiquitous there doesn't seem to be such a thing as vacation anymore.
David Kaye
>I own the company and have certain skills that none of the others have
>for the near future, crappy, but we pay our bills and make a profit.
I do tech support now, and I take off when I want.
I used to be in the restaurant business. I hadn't taken a vacation in a
couple years. It took my staff ganging up on me and telling me to take a
vacation before I realized I was flipping out from stress. I couldn't see it
myself. The week of vacation I took was probably the best respite I had in my
life.
Leythos
@yahoo.com says...
I understand your choice - I own the I.T. Support company, and we have
national clients, so when a company calls with certain types of problems
they get passed to me. We go camping a few times a year - I normally
only get 1 interruption each year, but, I would rather have a happy
customer over my head, even while camping, than to have to worry about
it while camping.
That's the wonderful thing about technology, a cell phone, small laptop,
a Solar panel/battery (generator as a backup) and since you're already
using a very small trailer to bring all your gear in (since you have 5+
people in your party), it's not really an issue.
Stormin Mormon
expect to get their answers instantly, via internet, tech
support, and so on. Not like the store is allowed to close.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"David Kaye" <sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hgl7qg$gp2$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Stormin Mormon
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"David Kaye" <sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:hgl80g$gp2$2...@news.eternal-september.org...
hlil...@juno.com
> Since cell phones and the Internet have become
> ubiquitous there doesn't seem to be such a thing as vacation anymore.
I don't own a cell phone, but don't most come with a wonderful feature
called an "off" switch?
And of course unless it's a satellite phone you could go somewhere
with no cells. There are still lots of such places.
Tom Biasi
"Stormin Mormon" <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:hggufo$hrf$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> Not yakking on them all the time, I hope? "Roger that,
> w2XLK, I have a moose ahead, stand by. Breaker one nine!
> Moose! Moose! This is rubber ducky, over!; Mom? you still
> there? I, like moose, hang on I'll camera phone it for you.
> I'll text you if we get disconnected."
>
> --
> Christopher A. Young
> Learn more about Jesus
> www.lds.org
> .
Tom
David Kaye
>I understand your choice - I own the I.T. Support company, and we have
>national clients, so when a company calls with certain types of problems
>they get passed to me.
My feeling, having owned numerous businesses, is that you aren't charging
enough. You should be able to have someone of high enough quality to sub for
you. The problem with most entrepreneurs, in fact, the #1 problem is that
they don't charge enough.
As an entrepreneur you need leisure time more than most folks do.
David Kaye
>I've also noticed an "instant action" expectation. People
>expect to get their answers instantly, via internet, tech
>support, and so on. Not like the store is allowed to close.
On my voicemail I say that one of the reasons I may not be taking their call
is because I"m on the road and I don't answer calls while driving. Even so,
some folks simply won't leave a message, and some also have their Caller ID
blocked. So, I lose them.
However, one thing I learned not only in high tech but in other fields, is
that people who are like that are difficult to deal with anyway. I'd rather
turn down the money than deal with a difficult customer.
David Kaye
>Hope you scheduled the week vacation every year, now?
>
Me? I tend to take off a couple days here and a couple days there. I live in
San Francisco, so any place I want to go to get away is typically within 100
miles or less.
One place I go is the small coastal town of Pescadero, a fishing village with
a hostel next to a lighthouse. It's a tiny, bucolic town. Also, the cell
phone service is spotty there and in most areas non-existent. It's about 40
miles south of SF but it's in another world. Just a day or two away to
Pescadero and watching the whales is enough to recharge me.
I leave a message saying that I'm unavailable for a couple days, to either
leave a message or call my backup guy. Nearly always they wait for me to come
back.
Leythos
@yahoo.com says...
I've had this company for almost 10 years and find that we're very
comfortable with the people we have as well as the number of hours we
work.
I work less now, owning my own company, than I did as a director working
for a fortune 100 company.
I choose to not be completely unreachable and I'm very comfortable with
it.
Stormin Mormon
carry a cell phone. Which gets turned off for church,
theatres, etc. And doesn't get yakked on, in the back
country or while camping.
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Tom Biasi" <tomb...@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:4b2e948b$0$31264$607e...@cv.net...
pbj
> Can't say as I've ever seen a real moose. I do, however, carry a cell
> phone. Which gets turned off for church, theatres, etc. And doesn't
> get yakked on, in the back country or while camping.
Cellphones don't usually work on the trails I hike. To me, that's a
feature.
Moderate
"GregS" <zekf...@zekfrivolous.com> wrote in message
news:hggoh4$c2j$2...@usenet01.srv.cis.pitt.edu...
You can take whatever you can carry. Hike your own hike. Just bring some
earphones so the rest of us can hike our hike.
Moderate
> In article <hggulh$jtl$1...@news.eternal-september.org>, cayoung61
> **spamblock##@hotmail.com says...
>> Must be a very demanding job, if they can't live without
>> you. Or, you need to train two subordinates, each can do
>> half your job.
>>
>
> I own the company and have certain skills that none of the others have
> for the near future, crappy, but we pay our bills and make a profit.
"The measure of a good manager is one whose absence is not noticed."
That is a quote from one of my mentors. Good advice.
Moderate
"Wolf Leverich" <leve...@linkpendium.com> wrote in message
news:slrnhiolha....@askin-17.linkpendium.com...
> On 2009-12-19, Stormin Mormon <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Now days, Comrade Leythos, making a profit also makes you a
>> target for government regulation. It is not fair that others
>> should have more than the masses. Chairman Maobama has said
>> it. Or things similar to that.
>
>
> Ah, horsefeathers.
>
> I've been doing the entrepreneur thing for a very long time.
>
> If you're small and government regulations are causing you
> troubles, then you oughta go back to work for MegaCorp
> because you just flat do not have the skills to do your own
> business.
>
> The government problem isn't regulation; it's lack of
> regulation of incumbent monopolies.
>
> Why does healthcare cost my company twice what any of my
> overseas competitors pay? God bless our exempted-from-
> antitrust medical monopolies.
Your healthcare company is not allowed to sell polices across State lines.
There is no precident for anti-trust legislation for in State commerce.
Wolf Leverich
Idiot.
Of course they can sell across state lines. Right
now. This minute. *My* policy is sold in, IIRC,
49 states.
Today's lesson for the very, very stupid: the whole
"sell across state lines" discussion has to do with
eviscerating state regulation (such that it is) of
the industry.
Right now, if an insurance company rescinds a policy
of a California resident, they theoretically are at
risk of pressure from the California regulators (who
vaguely care about CA residents).
The "cross state lines" crap basically means that an
insurance company "homed" in Alabama could sell policies
to Californians without supervision of California
regulators. This is wonderful for the companies, because
it means they all would move to the most insurance-friendly
state and pretty much deny claims and drop policy-holders
with complete impunity.
Great idea, if you never want to be sure whether you've
really got insurance or not. ;)
I have no idea how to parse your second sentence. It's
gibberish. What were you trying to communicate?
Love, Wolf.
Moderate
Thanks genius, but you have failed again. Go do your homework and stop
calling people idiots simply because you don't understand.
An insurance company in Alabama has to have a different policy in every
State, because every State has its own unique requirements. I thought you
were on Medicare anyway. Anti-trust law does not apply.
David Kaye
>
>"The measure of a good manager is one whose absence is not noticed."
I agree. I also subscribe to the concept of MBWA, management by wandering
around. I think a good manager should be able to do all/most jobs, but should
spend little to no time doing any of them.
Moderate
I tend to focus on communication, planning and training. Sometimes my mind
wanders while working on documentation.
Wolf Leverich
Yup, and having to make minor tunes to the policy wording
is a noise-level cost compared to building and servicing
the local provider networks and such that are involved in
operating in any given market.
Note that a bazillion other types of insurance are sold
subject to varying state laws, and you don't hear the
life or auto or home vendors claiming that they'd save
a non-negligible amount by doing away with state-level
regulation.
In fact, pretty much all nontrivial businesses are affected
by regulations and laws that vary from jurisdiction to
jurisdiction. You just deal with it.
If "anti-trust law does not apply", explain why insurance
companies have an explicit anti-trust exemption, and why
they fought to keep that exemption from being affected by
HCR?
Sheesh.
And no, I'm not on Medicare.
Love, Wolf.
Leythos
no_spam_@no_mail.com says...
And that would be true, if the company was significantly larger.
Leythos
@yahoo.com says...
Again, that only works in larger organizations - when you're a company
of less than 10, it's not really practical.
Dan
> Now days, Comrade Leythos, making a profit also makes you a
> target for government regulation. It is not fair that others
> should have more than the masses. Chairman Maobama has said
> it. Or things similar to that.
>
There you go, ruining a nice on-topic conversation with your
fantasy-land remake of reality.
Pish and tosh, as they say.
Dan
David Kaye
>Again, that only works in larger organizations - when you're a company
>of less than 10, it's not really practical.
From the way you described your company it sounded much larger. However, when
I operated a call center (aka a telephone answering service) I stopped
answering phones as soon as I could hire the second operator. Before long I
was specializing in long-term planning, not in day to day operations, though I
did do the billing and bookkeeping for quite a while after that.
David Kaye
>I tend to focus on communication, planning and training. Sometimes my mind
>wanders while working on documentation.
Using the telephone call center I owned as an example, We had a policy of
giving a full-month's service free if we screwed up a message. Sometimes we
had to eat it, but we prided ourselves on our quality and even when we did eat
it, we knew we'd won a customer for life.
Any telephone operator could make that offer when we screwed up. It didn't
have to go to me for approval. So, too, I gave most decisions in the day to
day operation to our staff. It empowered them and made them feel really good,
but what's more, it freed me from having to worry about that stuff.
Eventually, it got to the point where I had a staff of about 20 and was able
to come in for just 4 hours a day. That was mostly for bookkeeping and just
to check on how things were going.
Leythos
@yahoo.com says...
There are a few skills that I have that the others don't. While we
support several (50+) companies with no onsite IT staff, with more than
200 employees at their locations (some with 20 location), I still take
an active part in support - our overhead is very low and we keep it that
way by everyone doing what they can do best.
When it comes to firewall/security, I have the final say, other tasks
are open for anyone.
I've been doing this since the late 70's, support and design, and it
happens to be something I love - call me lucky or cursed, I happen to
love what I do for a living and don't find it to be "just a job" like
many.
Moderate
They have exemption from anti-trust law for the exact reason I stated. They
can't sell the same product in every state. Do we need to go around this
circle again?
Wolf Leverich
>
> "Wolf Leverich" <leve...@linkpendium.com> wrote in message
>
> > companies have an explicit anti-trust exemption, and why
> > they fought to keep that exemption from being affected by
> > HCR?
> >
> > Sheesh.
> >
> > And no, I'm not on Medicare.
> >
> > Love, Wolf.
>
> They have exemption from anti-trust law for the exact reason I stated. They
> can't sell the same product in every state. Do we need to go around this
> circle again?
I can't understand what you're saying. It literally makes no sense.
Even with the UCC and friends, pretty much everyone who sells a
product that includes some form of contractual relationship with
the buyer (think software licenses, for example) sells literally
a different product in every state.
In fact, because of varying consumer protections and such, the full
nature of almost all products varies from state to state.
The fact that they sell a different product in every state surely
didn't protect IBM or AT&T or Microsoft from anti-trust regulation.
I think you misunderstand McCarran-Ferguson. The ostensible reason
for the anti-trust exemption was to enable state regulation of
insurance, because regulation inherently causes some trust-like
behavior within an industry.
In fact, the straight-up exemption really was a gift to the industry.
It would have made much more sense, from the standpoint of free-market
economics, if the Feds had offered the industry some form of safe-harbor
protection narrowly limited to noncompetitive behavior directly caused
by state regulation.
The recent Leahy-Lott attempt to rework the blanket McCarran-Ferguson
exemption was crafted specifically not to interfere with the abilities
of state regulators.
It would, however, have made price fixing, bid rigging, and market
allocations subject to anti-trust action, and of course the insurance
industry went nuts.
After all, price fixing, bid rigging, and market allocations are how
they sustain prices that pay the astronomical pay packages for their
CEOs.
Cheers, Wolf.
Eugene Miya
hlil...@juno.com <hlil...@juno.com> wrote:
>On Dec 16, 6:13=A0am, DC <Use-Author-Supplied-Address-Header@[127.1]>
>wrote:
>> Amazon.com Listmania!
>>
>> The list author says: "We live in a digital world. Even camping has
>> entered the digital age as there is now a ton of gear that makes it
>> easy to bring your digital lifestyle right out on the trail with you.
>...
>What can you find in most camping stores? The most modern sleeping
>bags and packable mattresses. Tents made of the latest materials. High
>tech water purifiers. Global Positioning System devices. The newest
>camp stoves. It's interesting how much technology it takes nowadays to
>get back to nature.
It doesn't take much technology at all. It does take some smarts.
Are you going to find smarts in a store? REI and places like that have
very short courses and classes. And they largely tend to be 2nd rate
because more 1st rate staff expect you to pay more. Custom guides can't
help you learn faster.
You missed and snipped off the key fallacy:
>> With solar power now at our fingertips, there is really no limit to
>> what you can bring out on the trail.
Sure there is a limit.
It's what you put on your back, or if you insist on bringing the wife's
entire cabinet, what you can place in a trailer or a RV. It's called
the knapsack problem and it's existed arguably from the 1940s plus or
minus 2 decades. It's living within your means.
The more you place on your back the more you should think about what you
really don't need, or use tools with multiple functions.
I am reminded of Harvey Manning and his friends attempts to use balloons
to lighten packs.
Listmania is merely another tenderfoot who doesn't know what he's
talking about. And Hal should know better. After hearing another
Oregonian GPS horror story.
--
Looking for an H-912 (container).
Eugene Miya
y_p_w <y_...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>On Dec 17, 3:02=A0am, sfdavidka...@yahoo.com (David Kaye) wrote:
>> "hlill...@juno.com" <hlill...@juno.com> wrote:
>> >What can you find in most camping stores? The most modern sleeping
>> >bags and packable mattresses. Tents made of the latest materials.
>> >High tech water purifiers. Global Positioning System devices.
I remember when you didn't need water purifiers in streams above LA.
That equipment is best when its not needed.
>> How much do we want to go back to the old days?
>> were made of canvas and were very heavy to carry.
You only have to have good enough.
>I guess modern materials (nylon/polyester, silicone coatings/sealants,
>special aluminum alloys, carbon fiber) are one thing where it's just a
>variation on what's just a tent. I'm pretty sure that the first
>successful ascent of Everest involved synthetic fabrics since they
>were lighter and performed better.
What's Everest got to do with it?
Actually, I think Hunt's crew were still using coated ventile (cotton).
Nylon was largely used by the US to make up for silk.
Hunt's was a very much brute force expedition (seige). While a very small
thread (mostly Germans, Austrians with a little help from the Swiss and
French) kept expeditions small. It wasn't until 1957/1958 and again in
1975 that people woke up to smaller lighter expeditions.
>Gas or liquid fueled stoves have
>been around since forever. Air mattresses of one type or another have
>also been around for years.
Most of these, let's see, small portable stoves (Primus) are about 1900
maybe a decade earlier. Air mattresses were mostly around WWII.
>Now electronics are a completely different matter. Iodine or chlorine
>compounds have been used to disinfect water for years. An electronic
>UV disinfection pen is notably different. GPS brings electronics into
>the picture, but how different is that from a map and compass?
I and Cl were WWII products. But they were in consideration as early as
WW I. GPS, developed to deliver precision munitions via cruise missiles,
don't tend to rely on maps and magnetism in the sam eway, it's merely an
internal model of paths to follow and appear the "the package."
Someone has to produce a map. GPS in the end doesn't really care unless
a large object gets in the way, and you can fly around or over most
objects to insure how you get there.
One of Mallory's grandkids lives not too far from me in Berkeley.
Eugene Miya
David Kaye <sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote:...
>>the picture, but how different is that from a map and compass?
>
>the reasons I'm not much into Burning Man anymore. When it was isolation it
>was fine. But now that people do webcasts and run radio stations on the playa
>it certainly takes away from the experience.
I have to laugh.
The web casting and radio are among the things my friend Brad (who used
to moderate rec.humor.funny) does (also panoramic photos). They pride
themselves on bringing remote technology. They argue bringing it to
people who can't attend or local attendance. Big social experiment to them.
Eugene Miya
>> >Actually I wouldn't but I do notice the irony of needing all that
>> >stuff to "get back to nature."
On Dec 18, 2:06=A0am, sfdavidka...@yahoo.com (David Kaye) wrote:
>> Some black folks I know have an interesting take on the whole camping thing:
>> "Why should we go back to being outside when we've struggled for so many
>> generations to get inside?"
It's not confined to blacks. I currently have African American
neighbors on either side of me. One doesn't camp. SHE wouldn't think
of it (the gender card). Norm pulls a trailer. He fishes. Years ago I
shared an office at JPL with a guy named Willy (also black), Willy drove
the Alaskan highway 2 decades before I drove it.
On the other hand, my old man (Asian) refused to camp because of his time
in the US Army in Europe. His attitude was Chicago. Studs Turkle is
another with this attitude. Won't sleep on the ground. My neighbor
Peter (Chinese-American) married a woman who survived Mao's Cultural
Revolution. She absolutely refuses to camp or do much in the outdoors.
Women outside the US tend to vary. You talk to these people and you can
see how divorced they are from the real world and its problems like
climate change, where food comes from, etc.
>> That said, I like simplicity myself, and unlike a lot of my brethren can
>> easily live for extended periods without Internet, cell phones, radio, etc.
>> Why...there's this 15th Century technology called the book...
Gutenberg (as a firm) is still around.
In article <0d851451-ebdc-4b96...@g7g2000yqa.googlegroups.com>,
family-outdoors <pama...@gmail.com> wrote:
>And now some people have to put those 15th Century inventions on
>electronic devices as well...blah!
4 bit gray scale only.
>Of course we are pointing these things out via computer...not smoke
>signals.
Stepping stones.
Eugene Miya
GregS <zekf...@zekfrivolous.com> wrote:
>I find I have to waterproof all my MODERN tents.
That's called maintenance.
Usually only the floor will have waterproof fabric. Design choices are
based on a designer's previous experience. And most don't have much.
--
Looking for an H-912 (container).
------------ And now a word from our sponsor ---------------------
For a secure high performance FTP using SSL/TLS encryption
upgrade to SurgeFTP
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Eugene Miya
David Kaye <sfdavi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>I remember those days. Since cell phones and the Internet have become
>ubiquitous there doesn't seem to be such a thing as vacation anymore.
Nonsense.
I just took a month in the Alps.
I have to moderate a news group. I stopped completely reading email 1/2
through the trip. Fine vacation.
You control your life.
As much as you can at least.
Eugene Miya
Young Tenderfoot Stormin Mormon <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Can't say as I've ever seen a real moose.
Well, the easiest thing is to try a zoo. Deprived.
If you live in SLC, UT, I know you can see them in Teton and Yellowstone.
I always tend to see a mom and a kid at Fairbanks Intl. or somewhere
around town on the Chena River. You just don't want to hit one with a car.
Most people lose. They are just big sacks of water. Caribou are OK.
Wolves, bear (all three basic species), etc. are interesting to see if
one goes with purpose.
They aren't pets nor beholden to man. That they are wild is something
to behold.
>I do, however,
>carry a cell phone. Which gets turned off for church,
>theatres, etc. And doesn't get yakked on, in the back
>country or while camping.
>--
>
>"Tom Biasi" <tomb...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>news:4b2e948b$0$31264$607e...@cv.net...
>Don't shoot the moose Stormin, unless its absolutely
>necessary :-)
Use everything.
Moose burgers done well can be tasty.
James D. Andrews
"Eugene Miya" <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
news:4b3aacb2$1@darkstar...
For moose sighting, if you're ever in Maine, try the Golden Road near Baxter
State Park, or for that matter, just go in Baxter.
Didn't like moose burgers a whole lot. Didn't dislike them, just not fatty
enough for my taste.
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
Bruce in alaska
wrote:
>
> Use everything.
> Moose burgers done well can be tasty.
If you ever actually show up out here we will have Moose Burger Helper
for dinner....
--
Bruce in alaska
add <path> after <fast> to reply
Bruce in alaska
wrote:
> It doesn't take much technology at all. It does take some smarts.
> Are you going to find smarts in a store? REI and places like that have
> very short courses and classes. And they largely tend to be 2nd rate
> because more 1st rate staff expect you to pay more. Custom guides can't
> help you learn faster.
REI was a Great Place to find stuff, back when they had only the one
Store, up near Broadway, on Capital Hill... I still have my 5 digit
Membership Card, in my wallet... getting a bit tattered these days...
Just for fun, a few years back, I took an 20 year old pair of Reikli ?
Mountain boots in to the place, and told the Young Feller that they just
weren't working out, like I thought they should... and I wanted my money
back... He went and got the Footwear Manager, who asked to see my
Membership Card... When he saw the 5 digit number he was a bit taken
back, and asked if I could hang out for a few more minutes... the Store
Manager then showed up... and I repeated my comments to him, with as
straight of face as I could muster... He laughed, and told me that they
didn't have that Policy any more, but he could offer me a 50% discount
on any Boot in the place.... I laughed, and bought my next pair of boots
at full Retail... but it was fun to see how they would react... I visit
REI in Seattle once every two years or so, just to buy my next pair of
boots.... Yea, they last about two years on average....
Definitely not the same place it used to be... Way to Yuppified... but I
suspect they TRY to be as good as they used to be....
hlil...@juno.com
Eugene Miya wrote:
> You missed and snipped off the key fallacy:
>
> >> With solar power now at our fingertips, there is really no limit to
> >> what you can bring out on the trail.
I noticed that but snipped it cause I was just commenting on the irony
of all the technology people use to "get back to nature." I like the
technology but it ain't getting back to nature, if someone wants to do
that he should take a survival course, one where you only get a knife
and what's in your head.
hlil...@juno.com
Eugene Miya wrote:
> It's not confined to blacks. I currently have African American
> neighbors on either side of me. One doesn't camp. SHE wouldn't think
> of it (the gender card). Norm pulls a trailer. He fishes. Years ago I
> shared an office at JPL with a guy named Willy (also black), Willy drove
> the Alaskan highway 2 decades before I drove it.
I've long been curious about the dearth of black people in climbing,
in fact I've never seen a black climber and I have to wonder why that
is. I even mentioned in a blog
http://hallillywhite.blogspot.com/search?q=mount+adams
As I say there, I speculate that the reason is a combination of
finances and culture but that is strictly speculation on my part.
Wolf Leverich
Dunno, but there's not a complete dearth of Black climbers.
Virgil Shields, besides being a former chair of the Angeles
Chapter of the Sierra Club, is a quite competent climber.
Stag Brown has been hiking and leading with the Hundred Peaks
Section for more than 35 years. Patrick Vaughn is one of our
stronger new leaders.
Each of our semi-annual seminars for new Chapter leaders is
attended by a pretty interesting mix of ethnicities. It's
prolly not completely in sync with Los Angeles's demographics,
but not wildly unrepresentative. ;)
Cheers, Wolf.
Hundred Peaker and Admin Chair of
Angeles Chapter's Leadership Training Committee
Ben Crowell
> Each of our semi-annual seminars for new Chapter leaders is
> attended by a pretty interesting mix of ethnicities. It's
> prolly not completely in sync with Los Angeles's demographics,
> but not wildly unrepresentative. ;)
>
> Cheers, Wolf.
> Hundred Peaker and Admin Chair of
> Angeles Chapter's Leadership Training Committee
Wolf, my daughter and I live in Fullerton, and are planning to
climb Mt. Shasta in June. We have never used ice axes or crampons
before, and it sounds like we'll need to learn those skills for
this climb. Since you're in the area, can you suggest a good
place to take a course? Does your organization do anything like
this?
y_p_w
I don't know if there's a lot of need for ice axes in OC, but maybe
REI has basic ice axe arresting instruction somewhere. At the very
least you could ask at one of their stores.
http://www.rei.com/rei/outdoorschool/LAX/LAX_regional.jsp
http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/articles/mountaineering+summit+adventures.html
Some local Sierra Club chapters might have snow climbing instruction.
hlil...@juno.com
wrote:
> > I've long been curious about the dearth of black people in climbing,
> > in fact I've never seen a black climber and I have to wonder why that
> > is. I even mentioned in a blog
>
> >http://hallillywhite.blogspot.com/search?q=mount+adams
>
> > As I say there, I speculate that the reason is a combination of
> > finances and culture but that is strictly speculation on my part.
>
> Dunno, but there's not a complete dearth of Black climbers.
Not complete but I've never seen one where I climb. As mentioned in
the blog I did once talk to a woman who saw two of them on Adams which
is the only case I know of here. That does seem curious considering
the number of Blacks in the area, many of whom hold well-paying jobs.
....
> Each of our semi-annual seminars for new Chapter leaders is
> attended by a pretty interesting mix of ethnicities. It's
> prolly not completely in sync with Los Angeles's demographics,
> but not wildly unrepresentative. ;)
OK, it may be different there but in the Portland, OR area it is
wildly unrepresentative of the demographics.
Not earth-shaking but enough to arouse my curiosity.
hlil...@juno.com
...
> I don't know if there's a lot of need for ice axes in OC, but maybe
> REI has basic ice axe arresting instruction somewhere. At the very
> least you could ask at one of their stores.
I'd be careful of "basic" ice ax instruction. If you need to self-
arrest you better do it correctly and do it quick. Any instruction
should include *lots* of practice, to the point that correct action
becomes natural.
Dr. Brian Leverich
Hi Ben!
For insurance reasons, the Sierra Club can't teach ice-axe-and-
crampon technique to complete newbies. :(
If you can get over the initial hump with someone (find anyone to
coach you on how to carry crampons and an ice axe, how to properly
put on crampons, the basic concepts of moving on crampons, and how
to use an ice axe for self-belay and self-arrest), then you can go
out for the SC's practice sessions on Baldy and actually climbing
checkouts in the Sierras.
The Baldy practice dates are at:
http://angeles.sierraclub.org/ltc/schedule.html
I'll be uploading the Sierra practice/checkoff dates shortly, but
they'll be later in the season (but before June).
The SC doesn't endorse any particular commercial outfit, but many
of our folks have learned with Kurt Wedberg. His contact info is
on that page, too.
Cheers, Wolf.
Ben Crowell
Wolf Leverich
> Thanks, Wolf, that's very helpful!
Oops, three things I forgot:
(1) Most Sierra Club outings are open to nonmembers, but
unfortunately (insurance reasons again :( ) technical
outings (roped rock climbs, ice-axe-and-crampon on snow)
are called "restricted" and limited to members.
Membership is pretty cheap ($25-45) and there are no
other requirements besides being able to type your name
and address, but it takes awhile to get processed. So,
if you wanna go out on the Baldy or Sierra practices,
I'd sign up today at:
(2) I assume you have all the other backcountry skills
you need, but if not a firehose approach is to sign up
for the Sierra Club's Wilderness Travel Course.
It's starting real soon and there's only one per year,
so that's another prolly-want-to-act-real-soon things
if you're interested:
http://www.wildernesstravelcourse.org/
(3) Shasta is major fun. Here's a detail nobody ever
seems to mention. If you wear windstopperish outer
garments, it might be worth carrying a light and cheap
pair of slick rainpants that fit over your windstopper
pants.
Why?
Snow conditions vary a lot on Shasta, and some of the
time doing butt glissades on windstoppers just doesn't
work. You'll wind up paddling with your axe, and everyone
will point and laugh. (This happened to me once upon a
time.) Having something slicker on your butt will help if
you run into those conditions.
If you can do standing glissades with style and grace, my
apologies for the foregoing advice ... ;)
Cheers, Wolf.
hlil...@juno.com
> (3) Shasta is major fun. Here's a detail nobody ever
> seems to mention. If you wear windstopperish outer
> garments, it might be worth carrying a light and cheap
> pair of slick rainpants that fit over your windstopper
> pants.
>
> Why?
>
> Snow conditions vary a lot on Shasta, and some of the
> time doing butt glissades on windstoppers just doesn't
> work. You'll wind up paddling with your axe, and everyone
> will point and laugh. (This happened to me once upon a
> time.) Having something slicker on your butt will help if
> you run into those conditions.
Another option is a heavy-duty garbage sack. Poke your feet through
and wear it like panties and you can glissade if snow conditions
allow. And garbage sacks are cheaper than rainpants if you get a rip
in them.
I've had fun telling people I'm going to lead up Mt Hood to bring a
garbage sack cause they will come off the mountain in it.
Eugene Miya
Young Tenderfoot Stormin Mormon <cayoung61**spamblock##@hotmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>>Can't say as I've ever seen a real moose.
"Eugene Miya" <eug...@cse.ucsc.edu> wrote in message
news:4b3aacb2$1@darkstar...
>> Well, the easiest thing is to try a zoo.
>> If you live in SLC, UT, I know you can see them in Teton and Yellowstone.
>>
>>>"Tom Biasi" <tomb...@optonline.net> wrote in message
>>>news:4b2e948b$0$31264$607e...@cv.net...
>>>Don't shoot the moose Stormin, unless its absolutely
>>>necessary :-)
>>
>> Use everything.
>> Moose burgers done well can be tasty.
In article <hhg6e7$stk$1...@adenine.netfront.net>,
James D. Andrews <jamesd...@att.net> wrote:
>For moose sighting, if you're ever in Maine, try the Golden Road near Baxter
>State Park, or for that matter, just go in Baxter.
Lobstergrrl is from Maine. I went by in Oct. myself for 2 days(what I
could spare). Didn't see any but it is certainly their terrain.
>Didn't like moose burgers a whole lot. Didn't dislike them, just not fatty
>enough for my taste.
One suggestion which came back was mix in some pork and spices.
I know some people don't like the idea of mixing meats, but that's what
came back.
Eugene Miya
Bruce in alaska <fa...@btpost.net> wrote:
>In article <4b3aacb2$1@darkstar>, eug...@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya)
>wrote:
>> Use everything.
>> Moose burgers done well can be tasty.
>
>If you ever actually show up out here we will have Moose Burger Helper
>for dinner....
Sounds good.
Salmon might be slightly healthier.
Crab might be good, too. And oysters. And all kinds of other sea food.
You have to convince my friend Mindy. She is the one who wants to
resurvey the Juneau Ice Field. She has to take off from her job
forecasting the Pacific weather for Environment Canada in Vancouver.
She also has to get money and user days for helo support and camping at
the tin hut up there in order to do the work. And at the same time the
North slope people (just saw them either need me, or I have to find
willing volunteers).
Eugene Miya
Hey they are otherwise dead meat.
Which reminds me I need to check up where the guys in the Alps died.
Every course basically seems to entail a solo, OB, NOLS, and some of the
smaller training.
Eugene Miya
>> very short courses and classes. And they largely tend to be 2nd rate
>> because more 1st rate staff expect you to pay more.
>
>Store, up near Broadway, on Capital Hill...
I have a lot of friends who live on Capitol Hill. Trying to figure out
when next there (I just mailed a box to there).
>I still have my 5 digit
>Membership Card, in my wallet... getting a bit tattered these days...
They will send you a new one.
6-digits.
Lloyd Anderson founded a fine inexpensive Co-op. Can't begrudge him that.
But REI probably needed a combination of the Mountaineers and the
Mazamas to succeed, and they were the ones to provide local, if somewhat
conservative/backward classes. Naw, backward isn't the right word, too
strong/slightly too negative.
>Just for fun, a few years back, I took an 20 year old pair of Reikli ?
>Mountain boots in to the place, and told the Young Feller that they just
>weren't working out, like I thought they should... and I wanted my money
>back... He went and got the Footwear Manager, who asked to see my
>Membership Card... When he saw the 5 digit number he was a bit taken
>back, and asked if I could hang out for a few more minutes... the Store
>Manager then showed up... and I repeated my comments to him, with as
>straight of face as I could muster... He laughed, and told me that they
>didn't have that Policy any more, but he could offer me a 50% discount
>on any Boot in the place.... I laughed, and bought my next pair of boots
>at full Retail... but it was fun to see how they would react... I visit
>REI in Seattle once every two years or so, just to buy my next pair of
>boots.... Yea, they last about two years on average....
They have moved into the Bay Area like rug rats. I have also visited
the Los Anchorage store.
For boots, I take care of my two different pairs of Galibiers (Super
Guides and Vercors). Single piece leather (both), and the Vercors are
incredible not only for walking about also medium weight cramponing AND
skiing. I did go into a couple of European stores to replace gloves and
I saw Lowa boots still there, and I went past a number of European gear
factories.
>Definitely not the same place it used to be... Way to Yuppified... but I
>suspect they TRY to be as good as they used to be....
I see The North Face is suing a kid with the business idea of The South Butt.
REI's youngsters try. But I some times have to go to 2 other stores
(Marmot and another I'd rather than pollute) and if I really need
something I go down to Ventura (where friends work and I spent some time).
The US barely recreates outdoors. Depends what you want to do.
R.o.c. was set up by Ralph for car camping. Similarly the a.r.c. group
was set up by people intended tent camps and got the RVers.
Eugene Miya
hlil...@juno.com <hlil...@juno.com> wrote:
>Eugene Miya wrote:
>> It's not confined to blacks. I currently have African American
>> neighbors on either side of me. One doesn't camp. SHE wouldn't think
>> of it (the gender card). Norm pulls a trailer. He fishes. Years ago I
>> shared an office at JPL with a guy named Willy (also black), Willy drove
>> the Alaskan highway 2 decades before I drove it.
>
>I've long been curious about the dearth of black people in climbing,
>in fact I've never seen a black climber and I have to wonder why that
>is. I even mentioned in a blog
I know 2 blacks who climb in the USA. My friend Camille in HS was a
superb rock climber. She went into the Army as a career into the
Military Police. I don't know if a facebook search or linked in search
would find her. I had other friends who went into the Army as a career.
She first post was Herlong Depot where munitions were decomissioned near
Honey Lake (3 valleys over from where they hold Burning Man).
Notable in LA area is Leroy Russ. He took a Royal Robbins intermediate
class. There are enough of us non-whites that I've run into Leroy in
the middle of no where, and he remembers me, and I clearly remember him.
He's more of a rock climber than an Alpine climber. He climbs in
Yosemite, Kings Canyon, and probably Joshua Tree.
Outside the LA area and outside the Western hemisphere in both technical
(Mt. Kenya) and non-technical (Kili), you will find Africans climbing.
>http://hallillywhite.blogspot.com/search?q=mount+adams
>
>As I say there, I speculate that the reason is a combination of
>finances and culture but that is strictly speculation on my part.
Well yeah, it's sort of expectation.
It's not like I coordinate my trips with my neighbors, but Norm does
camp at Lake Shasta, and I have other friends who come up from San Diego.
Actually, I took one of my black bosses up Shasta after another mutual
friend of our (also black) died up there. But Lou isn't interested in
being a full time climber.
I did see Africans skiing in Europe.
Eugene Miya
hlil...@juno.com <hlil...@juno.com> wrote:
>On Dec 31 2009, 10:14=A0pm, "Wolf Leverich" <lever...@linkpendium.com>
>wrote:
>> > I've long been curious about the dearth of black people in climbing,
>>
>> Dunno, but there's not a complete dearth of Black climbers.
>
>the number of Blacks in the area, many of whom hold well-paying jobs.
What is your expectation?
To use a non-outdoor example, when women complained about the imbalance
of physical education funding for women, the result was Title IX. Now
the majority of male funding went to football, baseball, basketball,
track (and other field sports and swimming). It's not like women didn't
have athletics. It was pointed out they had cheer leading. This didn't
sit well with the women. Even despite IX, change has been slow and
women's sports is slowly creeping in the direction if qualitatively
different from men's sports.
>> prolly not completely in sync with Los Angeles's demographics,
>> but not wildly unrepresentative. =A0;)
>OK, it may be different there but in the Portland, OR area it is
>wildly unrepresentative of the demographics.
>
>Not earth-shaking but enough to arouse my curiosity.
So: What is your expectation?
Ralph E Lindberg
wrote:
...
>
> R.o.c. was set up by Ralph for car camping. Similarly the a.r.c. group
> was set up by people intended tent camps and got the RVers.
and I still stop by (r.o.rv-travel is another RV group, but it's
largely been taken over by political BS)
--
--------------------------------------------------------
Personal e-mail is the n7bsn but at amsat.org
This posting address is a spam-trap and seldom read
RV and Camping FAQ can be found at
http://www.ralphandellen.us/rv
Bruce in alaska
wrote:
> Salmon might be slightly healthier.
> Crab might be good, too. And oysters. And all kinds of other sea food.
Well if you came in Feb, like my brother, "The Engineer" does we could
have fresh King Crab, right out of the Inlet, out front.... as he shows
up for Tanner Crab Season, every year, and usually takes home a cooler
full of KIng Crab Meat, that we collect as Crab Tax from boats that want
to pre-stage pots on the dock. Mighty tasty, those King Crabs, right out
of the cooker.....
Eugene Miya
I have enough Alaska flyer miles I might have 2 tickets this year.
Surveying would potentially be in August. Plus Alaska Air has a
director of research, and Juneau is the test field for their cost/fuel
saving research.
We get into crab taste discussions and people like dungenous, but I have
a preference (for work) on king. King was offered in Norway when I was
there in 2008. I didn't get any in the end, but they are shown in
winter time travel brouchures. That's using a pair of chef's scissors
not crab or nut crackers (a silly way of opening a crab up).
I've had fresh salmon raw and cooked right out of streams (starting in
Idaho). I toy with the McNeil River lottery to watch the grizzlys eat,
but I figure why? Lots of other places to eat and see (we once had a
great salmon and crab dinner at Coldfoot of all places).
Eugene Miya
Ralph E Lindberg <n7...@callsign.net> wrote:
>In article <4b428fe9$1@darkstar>, eug...@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya)
>wrote:
>> was set up by people intended tent camps and got the RVers.
>
>and I still stop by (r.o.rv-travel is another RV group, but it's
>largely been taken over by political BS)
I didn't watch r.o.rv after the first dozen or so messages got it going,
way back when.
Your roc remains low traffic, Ralph, but the problem is the ambiguity of
what the word camping means to different communities. The repetitive threads
are in lots of groups (gear: boots, tents, etc. in rec.hunting vs. all these
other groups) are the same. And of course no one summarizes.
They are the "joys" of unmoderated groups (which is why the hunters, for
instance, moderated r.h.).
hlil...@juno.com
> What is your expectation?
I would normally expect that, subject to financial considerations, the
number of Blacks who climb would be statistically about the same as
Whites within normal statistical fluctuation. However when I observe
climbers here I see no Blacks at all. When I call the Mazamas office
they can't think of any either.
> To use a non-outdoor example, when women complained about the imbalance
> of physical education funding for women, the result was Title IX. Now
> the majority of male funding went to football, baseball, basketball,
> track (and other field sports and swimming). It's not like women didn't
> have athletics. It was pointed out they had cheer leading. This didn't
> sit well with the women. Even despite IX, change has been slow and
> women's sports is slowly creeping in the direction if qualitatively
> different from men's sports.
Another matter entirely. Women and men have significant brain
differences, and hormone differences. The PC crowd doesn't like it
but that's the way we're made. It would not be at all surprising that
the sexes have different preferences. Not so with different skin
colors.
Martin Thornquist
> Another matter entirely. Women and men have significant brain
> differences, and hormone differences. The PC crowd doesn't like it
> but that's the way we're made. It would not be at all surprising that
> the sexes have different preferences. Not so with different skin
> colors.
Re: different preferences in the sexes. Scandiavia seems to be one of
the most gender-equalized areas of the world, and also (I might even
say especially so) in sports. Football (what you in the US call
soccer) seems to be the anomaly in that women's matches get far less
exposure than men's; in many other sports (and especially the all-time
Norwegian favourite xc skiing) there seems to be a more or less equal
attention from the media on both sexes' races -- the amount of
attention seems to depend more on who's winning than what sex they
are. I don't have numbers to back this up, but my impression is that
about as many girls as boys are doing sports (and mostly the same
sports). This all implies to me that there is no big inherent
difference in sports preference between the sexes.
Martin
--
"An ideal world is left as an exercise to the reader."
-Paul Graham, On Lisp
Ben Crowell
> Membership is pretty cheap ($25-45) and there are no
> other requirements besides being able to type your name
> and address, but it takes awhile to get processed.
Hmm...well, the Sierra Club is also a political organization.
Skimming through the wikipedia article, it looks like I'd
strongly support almost all their positions, but there's
one glaring exception that I think is really important, which
is nuclear power. I believe that without a big expansion
of nuclear power, we have no hope of making significant
progress against global warming. To me this is the #1 environmental
issue we face, and I really can't see supporting an organization
that takes what I see as the wrong side on it.
Dr. Brian Leverich
FWIW, you're both right and wrong at the same time.
Of course women are different from men. But in point of
fact, East Asians are different from Europeans are different
from Blacks. Not just in measured test performance, but in
MRI measurement of brain size and so on ... Part of the
reason we PC around racial differences is that Europeans
aren't the most impressive ethnic group ... ;)
The important fact is that the variation between individuals
swamp the differences between races or genders. Because
people have a nasty tendency to reason from the general to
the particular, you don't want people automatically assuming
every Oriental is significantly brighter than every European
or that every man has difference preferences than every woman.
So "PC" has a functional value in both racial and gender
matters of keeping people from naturally but naively
committing a logical fallacy, and relegating Europeans to
doing society's menial chores.
Cheers, Wolf.
Wolf Leverich
Point taken, but if I boycotted every organization that wasn't
100% aligned with my positions I'd never interact with any
organization having more than 1 member. ;)
You ever wondered what Walmart does with the money they make off
of you?
Truth be known, I disagree with the Club on any number of points.
Most members do. That's why we have elections each year and a whole
raft of other ways to affect the organization. One of the things I
like about the SC is that I can tug on the rudder and affect the
course to some degree.
That kinda distinguishes it from almost everything else, where you
send your money and then they do whatever they do.
Cheers, Wolf.
y_p_w
> In article <fast-906081.12464131122...@unknown.hwng.net>,
I still go to the Berkeley store, which I believe was the second
store. Strangely it's #12 with the flagship store in Seattle #11,
although I don't think that was the original location. They still
have an older original wooden sign at customer service, which says
"REI Co-Op". I'm pretty sure it's moved around and expanded because I
distinctly remember some dusty odd-lots store there called BBB.
I once brought in a torn National Geographic Trails Illustrated map
there. Someone thought it would be hilarious to tear it up. I found
all the pieces and carefully reassembled it using transparent tape.
Most of the pieces were torn cleanly, but a few actually stretched the
plastic sheet it was printed on. Just for kicks I brought it in there
to see if I could take advantage of their legendary returns policy.
They were actually surprised that all the pieces seemed to be there
even if a few didn't quite fit. The customer service guy looked up my
purchase of it (receipt was long gone) and verified when I bought it.
He went back to show it to the manager and I found myself with about a
$9 credit, since the original price was $10 - and minus the dividend I
got from the purchase. I didn't get the sales tax back. I used the
credit to buy a replacement (updated) of the same map.
Lawrence Akutagawa
"y_p_w" <y_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:a07ef7c1-c6c5-4e49...@a6g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
*******
Right you are...there was a store called BBB many moons ago at the current
REI Berkeley store. BBB was a discount store much like GEM and GEMco. And
on the Gilman Street side of the building was, as I recall, a small nursery
plant shop.
y_p_w
wrote:
> Right you are...there was a store called BBB many moons ago at the current
> REI Berkeley store. BBB was a discount store much like GEM and GEMco. And
> on the Gilman Street side of the building was, as I recall, a small nursery
> plant shop.
REI seems to number their stores. Still - I read that their original
retail location was on Pike St in Seattle. The seem to transfer the
store number to any store that replaced a previous location.
#11 - Seattle - that's the flagship store.
#12 - Berkeley
#13 - Portland, OR - guessing it wasn't the original location either.
#14 - Manhattan Beach, CA (formerly Carson).
#15 - Bloomington, MN
#16 - Anchorage
#17 - Santa Ana
I'm most familiar with the Berkeley location. Right now REI is the
major presence on that block, along with a Chipotle restaurant and a
Walgreens. I remember assorted businesses there, including a pizza
place where the Walgreens now sits. Narain's Outdoor Repair (I think
that might have even been the original REI Berkeley site) used to be
located right next to REI, which made sense to a degree. That REI
store has definitely moved around and even swallowed up their former
neighbors (just knock down a wall here or there), but it's still in
the same large building it's always been in.
hlil...@juno.com
wrote:
> > Another matter entirely. Women and men have significant brain
> > differences, andhormonedifferences. The PC crowd doesn't like it
> > but that's the way we're made. It would not be at all surprising that
> > the sexes have different preferences. Not so with different skin
> > colors.
>
> FWIW, you're both right and wrong at the same time.
>
> Of course women are different from men. But in point of
> fact, East Asians are different from Europeans are different
> from Blacks. Not just in measured test performance, but in
> MRI measurement of brain size and so on ... Part of the
> reason we PC around racial differences is that Europeans
> aren't the most impressive ethnic group ... ;)
The male-female difference goes far beyond brain size (which has a
minor effect if any on real intelligence). Women have more white
matter and men more gray matter in their brains. Women have more
connections between the left and right brain. Women have estrogen,
men more testosterone. And there is little statistical overlap in
those characteristics.
Wolf Leverich
Eh?
If you look at test scores and a variety of other metrics,
racial differences far exceed gender differences in most
all mental attributes.
And individual variation swamps group identity, which is why
my wife is probably much brighter than you. ;)
(Unless, of course, you were a National Science Foundation
fellow at Stanford writing a dissertation under a Nobel
laureate ... )
Cheers, Wolf.
hlil...@juno.com
But in the US at least that is almost certainly caused by cultural
differences with Blacks dominating in the inner cities where schools
are abysmal and the culture often punishes anyone who actually tries
to get an education, calling them Oreos or not authentic Blacks.
Hispanics also often have educational disadvantages while Orientals
excel, again because their culture prizes education.
> And individual variation swamps group identity, which is why
> my wife is probably much brighter than you. ;)
But it does not swamp the male-female brain differences or the
hormonal differences.
> (Unless, of course, you were a National Science Foundation
> fellow at Stanford writing a dissertation under a Nobel
> laureate ... )
I'm sure she's very smart but one example is not very meaningful.
Eugene Miya
In article <xuneim3...@riget284.uio.no>,
Martin Thornquist <marti...@ifi.uio.no> wrote:
...
>This all implies to me that there is no big inherent
>difference in sports preference between the sexes.
In Vienna and I think some other German location, I picked up 2 pairs of
postcards.
People are likely to have seen these:
Men: single on-off switch.
Women: on-off switch and a host of dials, knobs, and other numerous
controls.
And then in German:
Venn diagram of a brain:
Men's brains (Herrin): numerous bubbles with "Sex, sex, sex" in the
largest as well as cars, money, and all kinds of other labels (in
Deustch). Sports was one bubble.
Woman's brains (Damen): vastly different labels and sized bubble.
Surprisingly, Computers was one.
So Martin, YOU may think that way, but other Europeans notice
differences. ;^)
--
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Eugene Miya
Dr. Brian Leverich <leve...@linkpendium.com> wrote:
>On 2010-01-06, hlil...@juno.com <hlil...@juno.com> wrote:
>> On Jan 4, 5:23�pm, eug...@cse.ucsc.edu (Eugene Miya) wrote:
>>> What is your expectation?
>>
>> I would normally expect that, subject to financial considerations, the
>> number of Blacks who climb would be statistically about the same as
>> Whites within normal statistical fluctuation. However when I observe
>> climbers here I see no Blacks at all. When I call the Mazamas office
>> they can't think of any either.
>>
>>> To use a non-outdoor example, when women complained about the imbalance
>>> of physical education funding for women, the result was Title IX. Now
>>> the majority of male funding went to football, baseball, basketball,
>>> track (and other field sports and swimming). It's not like women didn't
>>> have athletics. �It was pointed out they had cheer leading. �This didn't
>>> sit well with the women. �Even despite IX, change has been slow and
>>> women's sports is slowly creeping in the direction if qualitatively
>>> different from men's sports.
>>
>> Another matter entirely. Women and men have significant brain
>> differences, and hormone differences. The PC crowd doesn't like it
>> but that's the way we're made. It would not be at all surprising that
>> the sexes have different preferences. Not so with different skin
>> colors.
>
>
>FWIW, you're both right and wrong at the same time.
Duality isn't confined to physics. ;^)
>Of course women are different from men. But in point of
>fact, East Asians are different from Europeans are different
>from Blacks. Not just in measured test performance, but in
>MRI measurement of brain size and so on ... Part of the
>reason we PC around racial differences is that Europeans
>aren't the most impressive ethnic group ... ;)
Hey we came out on top in the book The Bell Curve, but the authors
chose to stick to America in Black and White.
>The important fact is that the variation between individuals
>swamp the differences between races or genders. Because
>people have a nasty tendency to reason from the general to
>the particular, you don't want people automatically assuming
>every Oriental is significantly brighter than every European
Quite true.
We aren't all doctors and engineers
>or that every man has difference preferences than every woman.
>
>So "PC" has a functional value in both racial and gender
>matters of keeping people from naturally but naively
>committing a logical fallacy, and relegating Europeans to
>doing society's menial chores.
Hmmm, sounds interesting.....
Eugene Miya
Wolf Leverich <leve...@linkpendium.com> wrote:
>On 2010-01-06, Ben Crowell <crow...@lightSPAMandISmatterEVIL.com> wrote:
>> Wolf Leverich wrote:
>>> Membership is pretty cheap ($25-45) and there are no
>>> other requirements besides being able to type your name
>>> and address, but it takes awhile to get processed.
>>
>> Hmm...well, the Sierra Club is also a political organization.
>> Skimming through the wikipedia article, it looks like I'd
>> strongly support almost all their positions, but there's
>> one glaring exception that I think is really important, which
>> is nuclear power. I believe that without a big expansion
>> of nuclear power, we have no hope of making significant
>> progress against global warming. To me this is the #1 environmental
>> issue we face, and I really can't see supporting an organization
>> that takes what I see as the wrong side on it.
You want to follow what Stewart Brand and Bob Metcalfe (Bob is calling
it Blue but not in the Demo sense) are attempting in their respective domains.
The SC, as a way of fighting dams, was very pro-nuclear power initially.
I know this because I chose nuclear engineering as a career start.
Independent of the technical and some of the social problems
we have to face to the consequences of our decisions
(if brown outs and black out, so be it). Naw #1 to me is population,
Power might be 2. There are many #2s.
I had this discussion with Dave Brower in the mid 70s, when I was in
college and first met him and had dinner with him. Dave was the main
guy who caused the flip flop. He felt he had good reasons. Ditto Stewart.
Stewart is back now.
>Point taken, but if I boycotted every organization that wasn't
>100% aligned with my positions I'd never interact with any
>organization having more than 1 member. ;)
That's life.
>You ever wondered what Walmart does with the money they make off
>of you?
Don't they have a pie chart with this on their web site?
>Truth be known, I disagree with the Club on any number of points.
>Most members do. That's why we have elections each year and a whole
>raft of other ways to affect the organization. One of the things I
>like about the SC is that I can tug on the rudder and affect the
>course to some degree.
Barry Goldwater was a Rep member to notably resigned, and I think he came
back.
>That kinda distinguishes it from almost everything else, where you
>send your money and then they do whatever they do.
I don't believe the issue is money. It's where you place your time.
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Eugene Miya
hlil...@juno.com <hlil...@juno.com> wrote:
>The male-female difference goes far beyond brain size (which has a
>minor effect if any on real intelligence).
Yeah, but my point to you, why I brought Title IX up, is that none of
this matters when it comes to funding. It has to be gender equal in the USA.
The problem is the context and that's whether or not they engage in the
same or near equivalent activities. This is also coming up in sports
injuries. This of course makes some traditional jock coaches fume about
political correctness.
Do you see 50-50 men and women on your trips?
If you are like me, I don't. Not the typical average trip. It's mostly
guys.
Now I can cite exceptions. Like when I go to Alaska. Our field camp has
slightly more women. Day trips on days off can be 75% women and 25% men
in some cases.
And there are clearly women only organizational trips like there are
women only colleges. But little of that will change.
Ben Crowell
>> Of course women are different from men. But in point of
>> fact, East Asians are different from Europeans are different
>>from Blacks. Not just in measured test performance, but in
>> MRI measurement of brain size and so on ... Part of the
>> reason we PC around racial differences is that Europeans
>> aren't the most impressive ethnic group ... ;)
This thing about the MRI measurements of brain size seems to be
floating around a lot these days. The review article that someone
pointed me to was this:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2668913/
They claim that brain size in MRI images is correlated with
intelligence, as measured by IQ tests. The thing you have to
realize is that this is basically junk science. My mother did
her PhD on this kind of thing, and when I saw the paper, I
emailed her for her opinion. It was quite a smackdown. And
anyway, even if you believed their results, they're only claiming
a very weak correlation of 0.4, which means that brain size as
measured on MRIs would account for 16% of the variance in IQ.
Given a correlation that tiny (and most likely completely bogus,
since the systematic errors are probably bigger than 16%), it's
a big leap from that to saying that there is a correlation
between race and intelligence. A weak correlation between
race and brain size (which you seem to be claiming?) piled
on top of a weak and probably bogus correlation between brain
size and intelligence really doesn't show anything useful
as far as correlation between race and intelligence.