Flarm with Firmware 1.20 update

[Robert Fidler]

Like to share my observations flying with a portable flarm with just
installed updated firmware 1.20 which displays Mode C transponders. My son
purchase the unit last summer for the FAI contest at Ulvalde. He was
impressed with its operation. I have had 2 long flights in Florida in the
last week after borrowing his unit to fly in Florida this winter. The unit
has just been received back from Flarm after installation of all available
updates, (new antennas and whatever else the factory needed to correct on
the new US units) and must say, I am impressed. The system seems to operate
as adveritised. The disappointing point is that no other gliders flying at
Seminole are using a Flarm at this time. Operation of the unit is basically
idiot proof as you simply turn the unit on, let it boot up and fly, no long
setup required. I have had numerous hits on the unit but not one audible
warning for a take action inflight avoidance required. I have had visual
contact with numerous transponder equipped aircraft that have been
displayed on the flarm screen. The distane and altitude depiction of the
traffic aircraft seems to be absolutely correct.
With collisions being a major risk of flying gliders, I would recommend all
pilots consider installation of Flarm. Frankly, I want Flarm to be
mandatory in all Gliders, I hope all of you do too. Look at it this way,
this Flarm is progress, trust me.

[Dan Marotta]

That all sounds great except for the "mandatory" part. STAY THE HELL OUT OF
MY COCKPIT!


"Robert Fidler" <bobfo...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4f1fe7bb$0$30172$a826...@newsreader.readnews.com...

[Derek Mackie]

I'll admit to being one of the ones with a faulty unit from Uvalde and
disappointed that I was not able to see it in action. Before I sent
my unit back for the repairs I installed the ADS-B firmware and was
VERY impressed. It is easy and intuitive to use and I have high hopes
for whenever I get mine back. To me, it is an obvious addition to my
cockpit. I'm not rich, but I look at it this way: I spent $1500 for a
parachute that I hope never to use. If I ever do have to use it, it
will most likely be AFTER a mid-air. The way I see it, if I spend
$1500 on a unit that allows me to never use my parachute, that's a
pretty good deal.

Mandate ME? Never! Mandate the rest of you so I can see you?
Hmmmm.....

Derek

[kirk.stant]

On Jan 25, 9:54 am, "Dan Marotta" <dcmaro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> That all sounds great except for the "mandatory" part.  STAY THE HELL OUT OF
> MY COCKPIT!

If it would keep YOUR cockpit out of MY cockpit - then yes, it should
be mandatory!

Just like parachutes are mandatory at contests, or radios, or ELTs,
etc.

Heck, it should be mandatory for anything that flies!

Ok, now, seriously. Relax. No one wants the feds to mandate it -
look at what they are trying with ADS-B and how messed up that program
is!

In a perfect world, the FAA would just GIVE a PowerFLARM to every
pilot when he got his license!

That word "mandatory" sure presses a lot of buttons!

Kirk
66

[Sean Fidler]

I think any intelligent, safety conscious cross country glider (flying in area's where other gliders, tow-planes, etc are regularly operating) pilot would (out of respect to him/herself and his/her fellow pilots lives and safety) spend the $1600 to greatly improve his/her situation awareness relating to collision risk with gliders and other aircraft. I say this with as much restraint as possible.

I can say that in Uvalde last summer I came within 100m of a head on collision (open class gliders) twice on the same day. I can guarantee that neither of them saw me. I believe this was on the first or second contest day. It scared the shit out of me because the never flinched...and this kind of thing a risk we all needlessly assume when one or some pilots are not protecting all of us.

About 30 seconds later I picked up a FLARM equipped glider and was able to pick it up roughly 1 mile away and steer clear.

It seems fairly irrational to me NOT to take advantage of an affordable, available anti collision instrument which when operating properly (and in all aircraft) greatly decreases the risk of a surprise collision (the kind where each pilot is completely unaware that the other glider is approaching).

Unfortunately, the reality is that this kind of intelligent, rational action will not happen until yet another pilot (or pair of pilots...perhaps more) are killed in the next (now pointless) fatal collision. I would not be surprised if, ironically, it was a FLARM glider vs. a non FLARM glider.

Mandatory is a bad word, agreed. But pilots respecting safety intensely (their own as well as their fellow pilots (both glider and power)) is a great thing in my opinion. I wish we had more of these kind of pilots.

I have only been flying for 8-9 years to date... and very limited at that. I have now flown 4-5 contests. I have narrowly missed collision now at least 4 times. I wonder how many I did not see at all?

Flying without a electronic means of warning for collision is not an IF questions, it is a WHEN questions. Unfortunately, when the next big name contest or cross country pilot dies because of a midair...this debate will end.

Until then,

Sean
F2

[LK]

[bumper]

On Jan 25, 7:54 am, "Dan Marotta" <dcmaro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> That all sounds great except for the "mandatory" part.  STAY THE HELL OUT OF
> MY COCKPIT!
>

Mandatory" is no stranger to aviation, so the gub'ment will not be
staying out of our cockpits

If we were not putting innocent lives at risk I could more easily see
your point. As an example, with some air space exeptions, transponder
use is not mandatory for gliders in the US. We've had one mid-air and
several close calls involving non-transponder equipped gliders near
Minden. Transponder use, though fairly high here , is not universal.
The specter of a glider vs airliner mid-air is unthinkable and would
doubtless devastate soaring. "Mandatory" would most certainly follow
such an accident . . . should it be implemented before rather than
after?

Some regulations are (I'll be kind) clueless and excessive, but some
are for the overall good. When on balance the benefit to society
outweighs the individual right to freedom, I have no problem with
"mandatory". At least so long as it's reasonable, effective, and the
least intrusive to get the job done.

I don't think there's much risk of PowerFlarm being mandated by the
FAA . . . ever. It's too practical, inexpensive, and sensible for a
government program. It works. Well. If you don't have one on order
yet, please do yourself and all your fellow pilots a favor and do it..
It's best to see what your are missing.

bumper

bumper

[Sean Fidler]

I am not asking the FAA to mandate this. It needs to happen sooner. I am EXPECTING intelligent glider pilots (and glider operations) to buy them out of respect for themselves and out of respect for their fellow pilots.

I am expecting unintelligent and stubborn pilots to resist, downplay and make excuses as to why they do not need flarm.

Once the next needless collision accident happens, with flarm commercially available, unfortunately, the late adopters will finally understand.

Sean

[Dan Marotta]

Yes, words like "mandatory" do press my buttons. It seems that we give up
our rights bit by bit - "it's such a little thing, and it'll make everyone
safer". But once you give up a little, it's not hard to be asked for more
and near impossible to get back what you've lost. Tried to carry nail
clippers on an airliner lately?

Why don't we all try to look outside rather than spend our soaring
experience staring at color moving maps and relying on some other electronic
doo-dad to keep us from running into each other? So... If your Flim-FLARM
makes you invulnerable to collisions, why don't you give your parachute
away?

I was amazed to hear that serious consideration was given to cancelling a
contest because GPS might have been unavailable due to testing. Why not
"mandate" that everyone keep their camera mounts so that we don't "have to"
cancel a contest? Why not "mandate" that we can't have a contest without
sufficient observers at the turn points to verify that the gliders actually
flew over?

Though I may sound pissed, I'm not - I'm just disappointed in the attitude
that everything can be fixed with electronics and regulations and that Big
Brother will protect us from the boogie man.

I wish winter would end.

"kirk.stant" <kirk....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:dcaeb33e-5542-4dd0...@c21g2000yqi.googlegroups.com...

[Dan Marotta]

God, I wish winter would end...

So, I'm not intelligent or safety conscious because I don't want to buy the
same equipment that you think is cheap? I just spent about $3,000
installing a Mode S transponder in my glider when it's not required by any
regulation, but it should make me more visible to ATC, airliners, TCAS
equipped aircraft, etc. These are the things I'm worried about close to the
big airport 40 miles away. I'm just not interested in a device that will
only alert me (maybe) to other aircraft with the same equipment.

There's no room in my cockpit to install another box. Oh, yes, I could
replace something that I want in my panel, mount it on top of the glare
shield or jury-rig some sort of mount that hangs off the canopy frame, but
that would block my view outside thus requiring me to rely on the magic box
to protect me from the target blocked from my view by the box itself. And,
by the way, I had a close encounter with a VFR twin engined aircraft just
last week, but eyes outside for both of us prevented a collision.

If the contest committee wants to require FLARM to fly in sanctioned
contests, that's fine with me. I haven't flown a contest since GPS scoring
became required.

It seems to me that those wanting FLARM to be in all gliders are those who
want to fly in close proximity to a bunch of other gliders (contests). I,
and many like me, aren't interested in contests or gaggles. I fly in very
remote areas with relatively few aircraft and FLARM could only benefit me
within a few miles of the home airport. FLARM sounds good for you.

Maybe I'll change my opinion when there's something that doesn't depend on
equipment not likely to ever appear in the vast majority of other aircraft,
ADS-B, perhaps. When the airlines and general aviation crowd install FLARM,
come talk to me about it.


"Sean Fidler" <smfi...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:2683016.848.1327541960711.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqlp13...

[Dan Marotta]

Many of your points are valid for your area of operation. Where I fly, we
see a couple of power planes on a busy day. We are, however, under the
arrival route to ABQ and so we see a lot more airline, military, and large
general aviation traffic at or above around 12,000 MSL. That's why, even
though not required, I installed a Mode-S transponder. ATC is not
interested in talking to me unless I go into the Class A or C areas but it's
my hope that they'll tell their clients about my presence. I'm not
confident of that happening, so I'll keep looking outside.

Equipment which I would agree is beneficial to everyone in your area doesn't
make a lot of sense to me where I fly. To me, it's like requiring east
coast fliers to carry desert survival equipment. When I lived in Alaska
back in the 70s, it was mandatory for GA pilots to be armed (gasp!), and to
have food, axd, knife, etc. Try that in New york!

Maybe I'm wrong (it's happened before), but it's my understanding that FLARM
only works with other FLARM-equipped aircraft. Maybe it was originally that
way and has since been corrected, but, if my assumption is correct, how
would it prevent a collision with an airliner?

As I said in another post, there's no place to put it in my cockpit anyway
whthout blocking my view outside.

"bumper" <bump...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:898010cc-83f7-4d94...@g4g2000pbi.googlegroups.com...

[Chris]

Dan Marotta wrote:

> That all sounds great except for the "mandatory" part. STAY THE HELL OUT
> OF MY COCKPIT!

You Americans have a strange attitude to your freedom, even when your own
safety is involved. In Europe most glider clubs have accepted that Flarm is
a simple, working and affordable solution. The installation base is already
significant and rising. The system should be installed in each glider and
motor glider, it is mandatory to yourself, this must not be declared by some
government deparment.

Had a near miss myself last year. Flarm was working. I am not sure I had
seen the other if not equipped.

Save landings

[Sean Fidler]

Chris, well said. Everything is politics over here lately.

Otherwise...I rest my case.

This has nothing to do with government...IMO. It has to do with glider pilots, high risk, safely and needless death that is assured of happening without a broad effort by intelligent people. Stop hiding behind the word mandate. It IS a free country so you make your own call and excuses (3 pages full...). The FAA takes way too long. More pilots will die in the US before FLARM is widely enough adopted and has a chance to reach its full safety potential.

Well, its back to playing darts with our fellow glider, power and airline traffic for awhile. Enjoy!

[Martin Gregorie]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 08:57:08 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:

> I was amazed to hear that serious consideration was given to cancelling
> a contest because GPS might have been unavailable due to testing.
>

Scoring.

Under current rules scoring flights is probably impossible if GPS is
being interfered with. Yes, I know you can use cameras for turnpoints but
they don't work too well for assessing airspace violations or minimum
height finishes: for that you need a logger to provide a continuous
trace.



--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Derek Mackie]

    |
"
Maybe I'm wrong (it's happened before), but it's my understanding that
FLARM
only works with other FLARM-equipped aircraft. Maybe it was
originally that
way and has since been corrected, but, if my assumption is correct,
how
would it prevent a collision with an airliner?"

PowerFLARM as is being sold in the US and Canada certanly detects
other FLARM-equiped aircraft as in Europe and elsewhere. However
PowerFLARM also detects ADS-B, Mode-A and Mode-S equipped aircraft, so
can give a warning against impending doom from "regular" aircraft
traffic. You don't look at the thing unless it's screaming at you,
then it tells you at a glance which way to look for your traffic. Of
course you still need to be looking out the window for those people
who have mandated themselves off the grid...

Cheers,

Derek

[Evan Ludeman]

And the purpose of your rant is... what, exactly?

I cannot install in my panel what my dealer cannot ship. I've had a
Power Flarm on order since the middle of 2010 (I selected the brick
option when the choice was made available). A few hundred other would
be customers are in the same situation.

To Chris over in Europe... the US situation is rather different in
that a) the US is geographically huge and b) the US glider population
is very small. Glider clubs that launch eight gliders for a total of
perhaps 20 flights on a "busy" day account for a lot of US soaring.
There's no earthly reason to require or even strongly encourage Flarm
technology for such sparse traffic.

Based on casual conversation with numerous other pilots, likewise
waiting on delivery, I think we will find that Power Flarm gets well
adopted on the contest circuit and in the areas of the US that are
glider traffic dense. However, because the portable unit has only
just started shipping this Winter and the brick is still months off,
it will be 2013 before we have any sort of objective measure of how
well the device works and how many staunch anti-flarm pilots we have
to worry about in glider dense environments.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[Sean Fidler]

Evan,

That is all you can do. Your unit will be here in the spring. That is intelligent.

FLARM is proven in Europe. There is no question that it fundamentally improves safety in very much the same way that GPS improved navigation and radio's improved communication. No need to wait until 2013 for measurement.

I completely disagree with you that US operations have no earthly reason to use FLARM. I find that statement embarrassing for soaring. All it takes is once. All it takes is one glider and one tow plane. All it takes is one glider and one airplane flying by the airport. Should they not have radio's? Should the not have parachutes? Safety paint?

[Renny]

Evan,
We currently have 18 portable PowerFlarms that are in the possession
of pilots based at Moriarty. They have all received the recent
firmware and antenna upgrades. We have already seen some excellent
performance in the detection of transponder equipped aircraft, and
once the season gets going this spring, we should be able to provide
everyone some "real world" feedback on its Flarm to Flarm
performance...

Thx,
Renny

[T8]

Maybe I wasn't clear -- what I took exception to was the idea of
mandating Flarm in a sparse, relatively isolated club environment,
giving the example of a club with 20 ops/day. Indeed, there are nordo
gliders, and still a fair amount of nordo power traffic (antiques) in
such places. I'm not defending this, merely pointing out that some
folks choose to do it this way still.

In areas of high traffic -- contests especially -- I am enthusiastic
about Flarm and hope to see it widely if not universally adopted.

-Evan Ludeman / T8

[Eric Greenwell]

On 1/26/2012 8:37 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> Maybe I'll change my opinion when there's something that doesn't depend
> on equipment not likely to ever appear in the vast majority of other
> aircraft, ADS-B, perhaps. When the airlines and general aviation crowd
> install FLARM, come talk to me about it.

Possibly there is some communication issue here: the US pilots are
actually talking about PowerFLARM, not the original FLARM. PowerFLARM
also has PCAS capability to detect transponder equipped aircraft, and
ADS-B capability to detect aircraft so equipped. It's all in one box,
with the data merged onto one screen.

If you haven't already read this article, now would be good time:

http://www.gliderpilot.org/Flarm

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
email me)
- "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm
http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl

[Ramy]

Evan, we lost a glider pilot and tow pilot just couple of years ago
in a pattern over a private strip belonging to a club with less than
20 ops per day. IIRC, this was the only op that day. To those who
insist they don't need powerflarm where they fly, I can only ask one
thing, please stay away from where I fly...

Ramy

[Three Uniform]

Folks,
I think quite some energy is wasted here on negative thinking. Like
bitching about the government (you get the government you deserve,
i.e. voted for) or the mandating discussions ("you stay out of my
cockpit", "No, you stay out of my airspace").
PowerFlarm will proliferate. I think it is key to facilitate that
proliferation as quickly as possible.
As others said, in our Region 11 we have experienced in our close
circles the Hawker-ASG29 mid-air and the Pawnee-ASW27 midair in the
landing pattern.

Fortunately the current experiences with the portable are very
encouraging. I would like to congratulate and thank the PowerFlarm
team for the progress booked up till now.
However, working in the High Tech electronics industry myself, I am
very concerned about the schedule for the brick, taking into account
that many people are waiting for the brick. By lack of any status info
from the PowerFlarm team and knowing schedule slips (as we have also
seen with the portable), I concur with an earlier observation that the
brick could easily slip into 2013 season. Leaving many of us exposed
to the higher risk for another season.

I think it would be good if we could focus our energy on how we could
help/stimulate the PowerFlarm team to
- keep us updated on the status and schedule of the brick
- publish the specification of the brick and display such
that we can prepare wiring during the winter for easy mid-season drop-
in.
- complete development of the brick as soon as possible.

3U

[JJ Sinclair]

> Evan, we lost a glider pilot and tow pilot  just couple of  years ago
> in a pattern over a private strip belonging to a club with less than
> 20 ops per day.  IIRC, this was the only op that day. To those who
> insist they don't need powerflarm where they fly, I can only ask one
> thing, please stay away from where I fly...
>

> Ramy- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Well said, Ramy. Let me add that the glider had (and used) his
aircraft radio to make a "entering the pattern" call. He also had a
transponder and a PCAS....................the tow plane wasn't alerted
to the gliders presence because he nothing, no radio, no transponder,
no PCAS! Time to stop this needless carnage!
Williams Soaring has just equipped its entire fleet, including tow
planes, with Power Flarm. Most private pilots flying out of Williams
have purchased Power Flarm also.
JJ

[Derek Mackie]

3U: Bravo! Well said.

Derek

[Sean Fidler]

+2

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

Many good points below.

I'm sure we will all learn much more about the status of the PowerFLARM
Brick at the SSA Convention in a few days. I will update my FLARM web page
as soon as possible. I agree that we need them to be delivered ASAP. FLARM
knows that too. They have put delivery of the Brick units ahead of work on
the IGC flight recorder in the Portable unit. The good news is that the
PowerFLARM Portable units are working very nicely and I'm pretty sure that
90% of the software and hardware is the same in the Brick.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

"Three Uniform" <threeu...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6bd4cd6a-5497-43ef...@pt5g2000pbb.googlegroups.com...

[Chris]

Evan Ludeman wrote:

> To Chris over in Europe... the US situation is rather different in
> that a) the US is geographically huge and b) the US glider population
> is very small. Glider clubs that launch eight gliders for a total of
> perhaps 20 flights on a "busy" day account for a lot of US soaring.

While this is correct, think about what all glider pilots are searching all
the time: lift. As soon as you find a good thermal, the chance is that
another joins you very soon. Circling in thermals can get you very close to
other gliders, even if the airspace around you is empty. My near miss
happened at a small competition, we had a 250 km triangle. Even when we
crossed the starting line at different times we met each other again and
again, sometimes 5 or more gliders circling together at the same altitude.
When then the Flarm shriekes and flashes at another glider coming from
behind you can make a sharp turn out of the circle. Better loose some 20m
than your wing.

Another near miss happened at our airfield in the landing pattern, when an
inexperienced pilot came heading straight against another one who was on
correct course. They did not have Flarm and could avoid a crash in the last
second.

What does it help when there are only 10 gliders in a 1000km radius, but one
that flies directly into your cockpit? Collisions happen where there are
reasons to be at the same place, like traffic patterns and thermals.

Happy landings

[Andy]

And some of us have donated portable PowerFlarm units for use by those
of you who don't see $1500 as worth the reduction in collision risk.
At least then you can stop being a hazard to the rest of us who do see
the value. You don't even have to look at it or learn how to use it.
Simply turn it on and forget it. Just please don't give the finger to
the person who offers you one at a contest.

9B

[Chris Nicholas]

In the UK, most glider collisions take place in or close to the
pattern/circuit at gliding sites. Most are with other gliders or tugs
from the same site. A few are with unrelated powered aircraft. (Little
sky, lot of bullets.)

Hardly any are while on cross country flights away from the home site.
(Big sky, few bullets.)

Before we had Flarm, we had 20 fatalities in 23 years, mostly of
glider pilots. We now have over 25 percent of UK glider with Flarm,
and most of those are in the quarter of the England (southern eastern
sector) where most gliding is done.

Is it a coincidence that fatal collisions have not featured as
prominently in the UK accident figures (none since 2009, and that was
a non-Flarm glider colliding with a non-Flarm powered aircraft – both
pilots in the latter were killed) since Flarm grew from a few to over
25 percent uptake? And the most recent (non-fatal) collision of which
I know, in 2011, had no Flarm help in avoiding it? I think it is too
soon for it to be statistically significant, but to me it looks
hopeful.

As for those who say another instrument in the cockpit is too much and
keeps your head down even more, sorry but that is rubbish. Virtually
everyone who flies with it has realized we were not looking out well
enough before, and the bleeps make you look harder. If it goes into
alarm mode – collision imminent if you don’t do something – you are
very glad indeed to have the warning. Been there, done it,

Ditto PCAS.

But, sadly, the unbelievers will remain unconvinced. Those of us old
enough to remember the car seat belt saga will recall those who
opposed them saying they would rather have the chance of being thrown
clear than be strapped in. (Ever hear of many people being so thrown
clear of an otherwise fatal car crash?)

As for those who have no room, yes that can happen. A pity. But the
small Swiss Flarm can go elsewhere in the cockpit than on the panel.

Transponders? For Minden etc., great. But transponders do not detect
each other. Two air cadet aircraft collided in the UK in 2009, killing
both instructors and both cadets - 4 dead. Both aircraft had
transponders. Unless you also have PCAS or better, or have radar
service, they are useless at glider/glider, glider/power, or even
power/power collision avoidance. (Very few UK gliders have
transponders, and most including mine are inhibited by regulations
requiring expensive and/or impractical official modifications and
certification issues, as well as cost etc.. I can’t have one in my
glider, and I had a hole in the instrument panel ready for it.)

My advice to people in thr UK is to get Flarm, and when you do so, get
as many of your buddies at the same gliding site to get them too. You
are all each other’s greatest collision risk, near your own base. In
the USA? Well, where have your glider/glider collisions mostly been?

Chris N.

[Chris Nicholas]

By the way, if anyone wants a copy of a paper I did on Lookout, Flarm,
PCAS etc., send me an email to which I can reply with an attachment. I
am not an expert, but it was the best I could pull together, with some
help from others including data from people on r.a.s.

Chris N

[Dan Marotta]

Sounds to me like Chicken Little (the sky is falling).

Do what you want, Sean. Install what you want. Petition the Competition
Committee to require FLARM. Why not invent an autopilot which can be
coupled to the FLARM, ADS-B, TCAS II, and every other device that your
obviously deep pockets can afford and program that autopilot to keep you
clear of other aircraft.

Why not just sit on the ground while your glider flies itself and cry about
us pig headed old guys who are too dumb to see it your way? Call me
unintelligent if you want. I'm not impressed.

Dan

"Sean Fidler" <smfi...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:16307004.478.1327608828924.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@yqa29...

[Dan Marotta]

Let me state here that I'm not anti-FLARM or anti-anything else except for
more regulations. My original objection was to the all too quick use of the
term "mandate".

Evan makes a compelling case (in my opinion) of why FLARM may not have the
urgent need that the Europeans seem to have, especially in the Southwest,
where I fly. There just aren't that many aircraft in our very large sky.

Opinions vary (obviously). In my case, I don't see the urgent need for the
type and location of my flying, not to mention my budget is stretched thin
and there's no place in my panel for another device.

So, for Sean who, I think, also flies a LAK-17a, how do you mount your
FLARM? Did you have to remove something else that you considered less
important?


"Evan Ludeman" <silicon....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d82b7dee-c1ff-4453...@p13g2000yqd.googlegroups.com...

[Dan Marotta]

Renny,

I'd really like to have a look at your installation and hear your
impressions. Is this in your Discus or your new baby??

Dan

"Renny" <rroz...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:f43ac7ba-bab6-4108...@x6g2000pbk.googlegroups.com...

[Sean Fidler]

Dan, Dan Dan...

Intelligent pilots would WANT to (don't have too, or may not be able to afford...) be as safe as possible for their fellow pilots and themselves. Flarm is a no brainier. There is no question that they reduce risk significantly, and the more pilots that have them, the safer we all are.

You don't see it that way. Fine. But wow...

Old, pig headed and dumb? :-) No comment.

Sean

[Dan Marotta]

Very good post, Chris. Your mention of "Swiss FLARM" which you say is small
has me looking. From what I can see, it would require mounting on top of
the glare shield which is unacceptable to me. There's no room in my panel
for another instrument and there's no room behind the panel for a remote
device which could display on my Android.

I will continue doing research, but let me ask a couple of questions of the
board: Is there a FLARM unit which could be mounted, say, behind the seat
back bulkhead and provide alarms and display on my Android running XCSoar?
Would such a mount require penetrating my carbon fuselage for an external
antenna? Maybe an antenna (only) on top of the glare shield considering
vertical clearance with the canopy.

So far, what I've found on FLARM websites states that it provides warning of
other FLARM-equipped aircraft. I've not yet found where it provides warning
against all transponder-equipped aircraft. Could somebody please guide me
in the right direction?


"Chris Nicholas" <cnich...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:6d1f91de-2e18-4d88...@b20g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...

[Eric Greenwell]

On 1/28/2012 4:56 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:

>
> So far, what I've found on FLARM websites states that it provides
> warning of other FLARM-equipped aircraft. I've not yet found where it
> provides warning against all transponder-equipped aircraft. Could
> somebody please guide me in the right direction?

Stop looking at FLARM and look at PowerFLARM (which also does PCAS and
ADS-B), the device that is used in the USA. Go here for information on
it's capabilities:

[Dan Marotta]

Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you. I've been looking for some reference.
I'll give your link a critical read and see if it's right for me.

I would like to see some installations.


"Eric Greenwell" <ow...@thegreenwells.netto> wrote in message
news:jft64p$1o6$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

[Dan Marotta]

From the website Eric posted: "If you add a Mode S transponder with 1090-ES
(also called ADS-B-Out) to a PowerFLARM, for example the Trig TT21, you can
have a complete ADS-B in your cockpit now; and a collision avoidance system
specifically suited to the very particular situations unique to gliders such
as thermalling, gaggles, contests, etc."

NOW, you've got my attention! Still, I have to see if it can be installed
in a way I can live with. BTW, I have a Trig TT22 installed.


"Dan Marotta" <dcma...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:jg2733$2n3$1...@dont-email.me...

[Martin Gregorie]

On Sat, 28 Jan 2012 17:56:36 -0700, Dan Marotta wrote:

> I will continue doing research, but let me ask a couple of questions of
> the board: Is there a FLARM unit which could be mounted, say, behind
> the seat back bulkhead and provide alarms and display on my Android
> running XCSoar? Would such a mount require penetrating my carbon
> fuselage for an external antenna? Maybe an antenna (only) on top of the
> glare shield considering vertical clearance with the canopy.
>

This may not help Dan or other folks who need PCAS-like abilities. As
Eric says, that needs PowerFLARM. However, the LX Red Box may be worth
considering if you have limited panel space and/or can't fit things that
stick out over the edges of the panel.

The Red Box electronics are in a small metal box measuring 50x27x97mm
(2"x1"x4") which weighs 150g and draws 60 mA at 12v. Antennae, display
etc. are all separate so the box can be placed anywhere convenient.

In addition the Red Box needs a display and two antennae, a GPS 'puck'
and a transceiver antenna. You have a choice for the latter: either a
160mm (6.5") dipole or an 80mm (3.5") rod on an 80mm diam ground plane.

The standard display is a 25x50x4.5mm (1"x2"x3/16") surface-mount unit
with an RJ45 socket in its back surface. You can also connect the Red Box
to a PNA running XCSoar or LK8000 if you can't squeeze that small display
onto your panel but already carry a PNA.

You can optionally add an SD card reader, which I'd recommend for two
reasons:
(1) I find it the easy way to update the FLARM firmware because it avoids
having to connect the FLARM to a PC.
(2) FLARM downloads logs to it, which can be uploaded to the FLARM
website to check your antenna placement.

The SD card and IGC logger are separate options: you can do the antenna
checks without needing the IGC logger option which is merely a firmware
upgrade and can be added later if you need it.

I have a Red Box installed in my Libelle with the dipole antenna, and as
many will know, the Libelle panel isn't the biggest one around and does
not allow anything to overhang its edges. Pictures of the front and rear
of my panel are here:
http://www.gregorie.org/gliding/libelle/FLARM_panel.jpg
http://www.gregorie.org/gliding/libelle/FLARM_install.jpg

The FLARM display is the small rectangle between the radio and the ASI.
You can just see the SD card reader to the right of the FLARM display,
half-hidden behind the PNA.

A description of how I made the dipole mount and the reasons behind its
design are here:
http://www.gregorie.org/gliding/libelle/FLARM_dipole_mount.html

I hope this is useful to other people with limited panel space.

[Dave Nadler]

Thanks Martin, but Red Box is not available in USA; it
does not meet FCC requirements and cannot be sold here.

For USA we have PowerFLARM. Currently PowerFLARM portable
is shipping, with the blind-mounting unit (analog to Red Box)
Real Soon Now (Urs will give a timeline update at the
SSA convention next week). PowerFLARM incorporates transponder
detection (Mode C, Mode S, ADS-B in).

Thanks for the comments,
Best Regards, Dave

PS details here:
http://www.gliderpilot.org/FLARM

[Martin Gregorie]

On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 08:19:00 -0800, Dave Nadler wrote:

> Thanks Martin, but Red Box is not available in USA; it does not meet FCC
> requirements and cannot be sold here.
>

Yes, I know that.

There are plenty of non-USAians on r.a.s and what I wrote was primarily
for them, though I imagine most of it would also apply to the PowerFlarm
'brick' when it appears. The portable PowerFLARM isn't exactly large, so
it follows that the 'brick' will be quite a bit smaller since it has no
battery compartment and, if I didn't misread anything, the display is
separate too.

[JJ Sinclair]

With the 1.20 update in my box, I drove to the local airport and
observed for about an hour. Local Cessna tookoff and it showed a red
circle that expanded then turned green when it was 1 mile away. Next I
painted an airliner with ADS-B and I got a black arrow showing
position, about 2 miles north and tracking N/E with altitude +9.9
(above 10K). Next another mode C arrival marched down to 1 mile
showing a green circle that turned red as he entered the pattern and
landed. All of these contacts showed their altitude. The only thing I
didn't get was any audio warning, even inside 1/4 mile and zero
altitude difference?
I really like the unit and believe it will give me a reading on most
of the aircraft near my airspace. A majority of the ships flying at my
gliderport have Power flarm and the real threat of hitting another
glider should be greatly reduced. We often run a clearly defined shear-
line in the local mountains and there is lots of head-on traffic as we
all follow the good stuff that is in a narrow band.
See you on my Powerflarm,
JJ

[Luke]

Hi Dan,

Here are installation pictures from Uvalde.

http://soaringcafe.com/2011/08/powerflarm-installations-at-uvaldeglide/

here is a picture from a Lak17 - the unit is mounted on the side of the
pedestal

http://soaringcafe.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/gallery/powerflarm-installations/DSC_8108.JPG

I tried fitting the PowerFlarm on top of the glare shhield in my SZD-55,
I didn't like it so I made a "prototype" that would attach to the side
of the pedestal. It worked out well, it was in my line of sight but
still unobtrusive. The mount came out bulkier than I wanted so I was
planing on improving it this winter, I have since sold the glider and
have to figure out how to mount it in the new bird. Here are the
pictures from the 55 installation

http://www.silentflight.ca/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=27&g2_itemId=2491

Luke

[akiley]

On Jan 27, 10:45 am, "Paul Remde" <p...@remde.us> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Many good points below.
>
> I'm sure we will all learn much more about the status of the PowerFLARM
> Brick at the SSA Convention in a few days.  I will update my FLARM web page
> as soon as possible.  I agree that we need them to be delivered ASAP.  FLARM
> knows that too.  They have put delivery of the Brick units ahead of work on
> the IGC flight recorder in the Portable unit.  The good news is that the
> PowerFLARM Portable units are working very nicely and I'm pretty sure that
> 90% of the software and hardware is the same in the Brick.
>
> Best Regards,
>
> Paul Remde
> Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
>

> "Three Uniform" <threeunif...@gmail.com> wrote in message

Another great reason to buy PowerFlarm....An IGC recorder. (coming
soon I hope) PowerFlarm sounds expensive, but no yearly fees right?
Divide the cost by how many years you will use it and it's pretty
cheap. (your age may vary) I'm going to attempt to talk our club into
this. ... Aaron

[Dan Marotta]

Thanks, Luke and Dave

I'm still thinking this over and trying to minimize clutter in my cockpit.
Currently the only thing appended to the panel is an Android on a flex
mount. If there is, indeed, a blind mount box which can be interfaced via
Bluetooth to the Android (XCSoar has configuration pages for Flarm), then I
could hopefully have the alerts displayed on XCSoar. I'd then have a clean
panel with no obstructions to outside scan.

I would hope this blind mounted box (brick?) could be had without having to
purchase a display, which I wouldn't need.

Maybe I can borrow a flarm for a day and pair it with my Android and see how
it works. That would make deciding easier.


"Luke" <lu...@silentflight.ca> wrote in message
news:4F26AC19...@silentflight.ca...

[Ramy]

On Jan 30, 5:31 pm, "Dan Marotta" <dcmaro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Thanks, Luke and Dave
>
> I'm still thinking this over and trying to minimize clutter in my cockpit.
> Currently the only thing appended to the panel is an Android on a flex
> mount.  If there is, indeed, a blind mount box which can be interfaced via
> Bluetooth to the Android (XCSoar has configuration pages for Flarm), then I
> could hopefully have the alerts displayed on XCSoar.  I'd then have a clean
> panel with no obstructions to outside scan.
>
> I would hope this blind mounted box (brick?) could be had without having to
> purchase a display, which I wouldn't need.
>
> Maybe I can borrow a flarm for a day and pair it with my Android and see how
> it works.  That would make deciding easier.
>

> "Luke" <l...@silentflight.ca> wrote in message

>
> news:4F26AC19...@silentflight.ca...
>
>
>
> > Hi Dan,
>
> > Here are installation pictures from Uvalde.
>
> >http://soaringcafe.com/2011/08/powerflarm-installations-at-uvaldeglide/
>
> > here is a picture from a Lak17 - the unit is mounted on the side of the
> > pedestal
>

> >http://soaringcafe.wpengine.netdna-cdn.com/wp-content/gallery/powerfl...

>
> > I tried fitting the PowerFlarm on top of the glare shhield in my SZD-55, I
> > didn't like it so I made a "prototype" that would attach to the side of
> > the pedestal.  It worked out well, it was in my line of sight but still
> > unobtrusive.  The mount came out bulkier than I wanted so I was planing on
> > improving it this winter, I have since sold the glider and have to figure
> > out how to mount it in the new bird.  Here are the pictures from the 55
> > installation
>

> >http://www.silentflight.ca/index.php?option=com_gallery2&Itemid=27&g2...

>
> > Luke
>
> > On 01/28/2012 8:27 PM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >>  From the website Eric posted: "If you add a Mode S transponder with
> >> 1090-ES (also called ADS-B-Out) to a PowerFLARM, for example the Trig
> >> TT21, you can have a complete ADS-B in your cockpit now; and a collision
> >> avoidance system specifically suited to the very particular situations
> >> unique to gliders such as thermalling, gaggles, contests, etc."
>
> >> NOW, you've got my attention! Still, I have to see if it can be
> >> installed in a way I can live with. BTW, I have a Trig TT22 installed.
>

> >> "Dan Marotta" <dcmaro...@earthlink.net> wrote in message

> >>news:jg2733$2n3$1...@dont-email.me...
> >>> Oh, thank you, thank you, thank you. I've been looking for some
> >>> reference. I'll give your link a critical read and see if it's right
> >>> for me.
>
> >>> I would like to see some installations.
>
> >>> "Eric Greenwell" <ow...@thegreenwells.netto> wrote in message
> >>>news:jft64p$1o6$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> >>>> On 1/26/2012 8:37 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
> >>>>> Maybe I'll change my opinion when there's something that doesn't
> >>>>> depend
> >>>>> on equipment not likely to ever appear in the vast majority of other
> >>>>> aircraft, ADS-B, perhaps. When the airlines and general aviation crowd
> >>>>> install FLARM, come talk to me about it.
>
> >>>> Possibly there is some communication issue here: the US pilots are
> >>>> actually talking about PowerFLARM, not the original FLARM. PowerFLARM
> >>>> also has PCAS capability to detect transponder equipped aircraft, and
> >>>> ADS-B capability to detect aircraft so equipped. It's all in one box,
> >>>> with the data merged onto one screen.
>
> >>>> If you haven't already read this article, now would be good time:
>
> >>>>http://www.gliderpilot.org/Flarm
>
> >>>> --
> >>>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA (change ".netto" to ".us" to
> >>>> email me)
> >>>> - "Transponders in Sailplanes - Feb/2010" also ADS-B, PCAS, Flarm

> >>>>http://tinyurl.com/yb3xywl- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

There are few things to consider for the non dedicated display
approach:
1 - Is the brick includes the speaker? If not, your PDA/PNA/Tablet
audio may not be nearly as good in catching your attention as the
Flarm alarm speaker.
2 - Unless your software provides a Flarm radar display (XCSoar does),
you may or may not get usable alerts from a standard moving map mode
depend on your zoom level and display orientation (track up vs north
up). And if your software includes Flarm radar, keep in mind that it
will take part of your screen.
3 - It is not clear to me if PCAS alert functionality will be provided
to flight computers since this may clutter the display too much.
4 - My understanding is that flarm support in flight computers was not
designed to be a substitute to Flarm display, only to provide
additional information, such as where your buddies are and how they
doing.

Ramy

Ramy

[kirk.stant]

On Jan 30, 7:31 pm, "Dan Marotta" <dcmaro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> Thanks, Luke and Dave
>
> I'm still thinking this over and trying to minimize clutter in my cockpit.
> Currently the only thing appended to the panel is an Android on a flex
> mount.  If there is, indeed, a blind mount box which can be interfaced via
> Bluetooth to the Android (XCSoar has configuration pages for Flarm), then I
> could hopefully have the alerts displayed on XCSoar.  I'd then have a clean
> panel with no obstructions to outside scan.
>
> I would hope this blind mounted box (brick?) could be had without having to
> purchase a display, which I wouldn't need.

Dan, the quick answer is no, you have to have the PowerFLARM brick
display on your panel; it has the controls for the device on it.
Please spend some time on Paul Remde's site and learn more about the
device. You can send data to your droid so it will show FLARM traffic
on the moving map, but it probably doesn't send Mode S, ADS-B, or Mode
A/C warnings.

I have an LS6 with a small panel - and I can find a place for the
small PF display. I'll even cover my backup vario and compass if
necessary - it's that much more important, IMHO. Don't know what kind
of glider you fly, but seriously doubt there isn't a good place to
mount it.

Since you have already spent the $3K for your Trig (nice!), as others
have said the PowerFLARM makes the perfect complement in that it shows
YOU the traffic around you, including Joe Dentist in his Cirrus,
squawking 1200 VFR and not talking to anybody, heads down playing with
his shiny toys. It's only a big sky until the moment someone hits
you....

Cheers,

Kirk
66

[Dave Nadler]

On Tuesday, January 31, 2012 9:49:08 AM UTC-5, kirk.stant wrote:
> but it [FLARM] probably doesn't send Mode S, ADS-B, or Mode
> A/C warnings.

FLARM will send this info in NMEA data stream in an upcoming
release, and likely all downstream devices will display.
For example, ILEC SN10 will have a SW update to display
this info...

You still *may* want a cockpit-accessible control for FLARM.

Hope that helps,
Best Regards, Dave

[Dan Marotta]

I've owned two(!) LS-6s, great ships with small panels, but that was before
all these new devices came on the market. I currently fly a LAK-17a which
has a similarly small panel, actually, maybe a tiny bit larger, but it's
fully populated and I won't hang anything off the side or on top.

Now if anyone wants to buy an electric turn indicator (practically new,
57mm) or a PZL mechanical vario (80mm), I could free up some space. But
then I have to ask: Are any models of Flarm configured so that they can be
fitted to one of these holes?

I'll spend some time on Paul's site and the Flarm site and try to figure a
way to do what I'd like to do.


"kirk.stant" <kirk....@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:4908d45b-e231-4c0f...@b23g2000yqn.googlegroups.com...

[Chris Nicholas]

I am just wondering if this would work. Like Dan, I have a Lak17A and
the panel is full, and the cockpit is a bit cramped. Even so, I could
imagine that with remote aerials/antennae on leads, either a one-piece
PowerFlarm or the two piece version could be stowed in a way that
allows access to the controls, not on the panel. I am devising a
camera mount that fits on the canopy. Anything electrical so mounted
would need breakaway capability to avoid impeding canopy jettison, but
should be doable. I expect the separate control thingy would be small
and light, and the larger power bit could perhaps be stuck behind the
seat or in the luggage place behind the headrest.

Does that sound feasible?

Chris N.