Tow Pilot Rand/Question

[Dan Marotta]

This is prompted by someone's description of a flight involving high sink
from tow release to landing. The pilot stated that he released from tow in
800 fpm sink at 3,000' AGL.

It's so common when I'm towing to have the glider pilot tell me, "I'll take
a tow to 3,000 feet." Then, during the tow, I hit super lift and the pilot
will hang on to the rope. He'll hang on until I'm struggling through sink
and hit the magic 3,000' and release!

I shouldn't complain since the higher tow means more income for the
operation, but I'd think pilot judgment would include releasing in lift -
even if it's below some preconceived release altitude.

Now, the instructors will say, "We need the altitude to accomplish the
objectives of the flight." I ask, "Wouldn't it better to demonstrate
judgment by releasing in strong lift and climbing to altitude to practice
maueuvers?"

Rant over...

[Bill D]

Excellent point - release in lift.

[Muttley]

A good tow pilot should be able to exploit the lift
he is flying through by turning in it. Do not understand
why tow pilots insist on flying straight all the time.

[soartech]

In the hang gliding world tow pilots always turn in lift to save gas
and climb faster.
Of course they are towing about 28 mph airspeed which makes it much
easier to
stay in a thermal.

[Steve Leonard]

On May 10, 9:34 am, "Dan Marotta" <dcmaro...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> This is prompted by someone's description of a flight involving high sink
> from tow release to landing.  The pilot stated that he released from tow in
> 800 fpm sink at 3,000' AGL.
>

> Rant over...

I find it is almost always easier to center a thermal that I am in
than to find one that I went through a minute or two ago.

[66]

Thermalling on tow is fine if the glider pilot is experienced but can
be a handful with a student.

And if my Ls6 is ballasted to the max i really dont want the tow pilot
to get too enthusiastic!

Common sense is obviously called for. Definitely route the tow under
likely looking Cu's or already thermalling gliders

Kirk
66
Glider & tow pilot

[Morgan]

Releasing at a target altitude is an artifact of our instruction process most of the time. Until I get my instructor rating, I can only complain so much, but I personally try to instill the habit of releasing in a good thermal above XXXX AGL where that value is essentially predetermined. It follows the other threads about making the decision up front and then just executing on it when your conditions are met. Clearly your airport operations need to dictate safe procedures, but I tend to treat getting off tow much like when to leave a thermal and have my preconditions determined up front.

As for thermalling on tow, if the tow pilot is game, I love it. Flying a Duo behind a Cessna 150/150 it can be a lot of fun to see how quickly you can get a big bird to altitude. You need to have that discussion with the tow pilot in some way shape or form though before you start though.

Morgan

[Darryl Ramm]

I really like the Soar Truckee tow ticket system, including the checkbox for "themal on tow"... to indicate if the glider pilot wants to thermal on tow if possible. Lots of other goodness, intended destination, contact info etc.

Darryl

[cycle...@bellsouth.net]

One reason to go all the way to 3000 ft and not thermal off tow, is to keep the student or ride from getting sick. On a good day with lift the tow will be enough to make some people uneasy. Some low time time students and rides will get sick easily and thermaling right after tow won't help. They need some level flight and easy turns to feel in control.
Yes I agree that a pilot intending to soar should get of in lift soon as you reach a safe altitude. It is less wait for the next in line, more chance for you to stay up, less fuel burned, less engine time. I'm amazed when the glider pilot almost beats the tow plane down on a good day. Most times when I ask the tow pilot, the glider went through lift several times and got off in sink. Just like others have said it's much easier to center the thermal you are in than go back through strong sink and find the one you hit on tow.

[T]

Hopefully if you were in sink, you were attempting to turn back to the
lift when the glider released?
Many times the instructor will want straight tows with shallow turns
to accomplish training, slack line, box wake etc. and then the tow
pilot should be free to return to a known lift area.

You did not say if this was an instructional flight, solo student or
rated pilot.
I've had pilots tell me.. straight out.. into the wind. They get off
when they are ready. It is a currency flight for them, not interested
in soaring.

At the end of the day... it's still the customers dollars..

T

[Jonathon May]

>ahh the barametric release system, works well for the accounts department
when all the release hights are the same.In reallity if its a trial
flight you give them what they have paid for if you are paying you you
release as soon as your confidence exceeds your lack of same.

[Walt Connelly]

Feel free to rant away. I made the observation of encountering 800 fpm
of sink upon release. My point was that these things occur on occasion
and if not handled quickly and appropriately it might result in being
low in the pattern resulting in the crash that occurred. I was
relatively inexperienced at the time (and by some standards may well
still be) but recognized that the circumstances might well preclude my
ability to return to the airport and land safely if I didn't get ahead
of the situation. Fortunately I received my glider training from two
old buzzards with thousands of hours of experience and benefited from
listening to their advice. I usually take a tow to 3000 feet but on
occasion will release if I encounter exceptional lift. Too often though
one flys thru lift, turns and can't find said lift again. Often times
it's a 50/50 chance of turning in the right direction and when wrong it
requires some searching to find adequate lift to climb. The bottom line
is that with an extra 1000 feet prior to release one has that extra
opportunity. I learned to fly gliders in November and December in
Florida and don't once remember encountering lift while flying with an
instructor. Most days were cold, wet and dreary with heavy overcast.
I'm sure that most instructors will release in lift to give their
student the opportunity to thermal to altitude. I'm just glad that it
was drilled into me to err on the side of caution and insure that I had
sufficient altitude to fly a reasonable pattern, maintain adequate
airspeed and land safely. That's what it's all about.

Walt Connelly
Commercial Pilot/Airplanes and Gliders
and still learning




--
Walt Connelly

[matt...@gmail.com]

On Thursday, May 10, 2012 10:34:53 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:

I learned to release in lift early in my training (probably first page in
the logbook). I'd try releasing and going back to the thermal we'd hit
earlier, but could never find it. The instructor told me to release in lift
instead.

Last year I was climbing nicely in our house thermal. One of our rated (ATP!)
pilots was on tow going by me. The tow pilot pointed me out. He stayed on
for a couple more minutes, released, and tried to go back to my thermal.
I took pity on him, pulled spoilers, and tried to show him the lift. Twice.
I climbed up from 1100 AGL finally, and he had a 15 minute flight.

It did make for a good ground lesson afterwards...

-- Matt

[rlovinggood]

At contests that I attend, we have pre-paid for 2,000' agl tows. Why get off any lower? There's a chance of getting off lower and missing the thermal, then having to work like crazy to get back up to release height, all before the gate has opened. I don't want to have to work before the gate opens; I just want to relax a little and save my concentration to spot the other gliders that are out there. They are marking thermals, so there isn't a need to pull the release below the 2,000' agl mark.

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

[Dan Marotta]

No disrespect meant, Walt.

My point was that you should get off in lift, not in sink. If there was
sink at your planned release altitude, you should stay on until you get into
lift. Of course, if there's no lift, you have to do what you have to do.

By convention, you have to turn right when you release (in the USA, at
least). If you know the lift is to your left, you can make your right turn
to clear the rope and then immediately turn left into the lift.
Alternatively, you can make a right 270 and you should hit the lift.


"Walt Connelly" <Walt.Conne...@aviationbanter.com> wrote in message
news:Walt.Conne...@aviationbanter.com...

[John]

I thought this maybe had something to do with RAND Baldwin.

J4

[Dan Marotta]

Nah... It's my typing (and lack of proof reading).

RANT, RANT, RANT...


"John" <jbo...@charter.net> wrote in message
news:E6trr.7044$3y3...@newsfe20.iad...

[Ventus2NZ]

I am a tow pilot and fly competitions.

As a tow pilot the challenge is to plan your flight path to drop the
glider in lift at their release altitude.

[Dan Marotta]

I turn all the time when I'm towing, both to the right and to the left. If
I know the glider pilot can handle it, I'll turn tighter and keep him in the
thermal. Then there are training flights where the instructor wants me to
fly straight so they can box the wake.

It's the lesser experienced glider pilots who, during their training, always
released at 3,000 ft or at pattern altitude. I think it gets instilled in
them to release at 3,000 and not a foot lower, and there's no thought of air
movement.


"Muttley" <ramsey...@live.com> wrote in message
news:7337340.620.1336666327242.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@vbez18...

[Dan Marotta]

What started me ranting are low time glider pilots (licensed) who tell me
they will release at a particular altitude, generally 3,000 feet, and then
do exactly that. I try to keep them in lift but they don't have the
experience to stay with me if I turn too tightly. The problem is that, I
may be going up like gang busters at 2,800 ft and they'll hang on and, at
3,000 ft, when I'm in sink and turning back towards the lift, they release
in the sink rather than wait another minute.

I was hoping to spark a discussion and it appears that I've done just that.


"T" <xcs...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f71a0f5-2d09-4b96...@e20g2000vbm.googlegroups.com...

[Dan Marotta]

You missed the point entirely, Ray.


"rlovinggood" <rlovi...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:7768138.164.1336763933565.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@ynff7...

[Dan Marotta]

It's a good challenge and I really try, but starting at 6,200' MSL (8,500'
density altitude), it's a good struggle for a normally aspirated tug.

And, still, the point is about releasing in sink just because you're at a
preplanned altitude. Was that point not clear?


"Ventus2NZ" <a.bel...@xtra.co.nz> wrote in message
news:8477d50d-9745-4bae...@s9g2000pbq.googlegroups.com...

[rlovinggood]

On Tuesday, May 15, 2012 10:58:30 PM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
> You missed the point entirely, Ray.
>
>

That's my standard operating procedure...

Ray

[Ramy]

1500' agl in lift is much better place to release than 2000' agl in sink...

Ramy