I haven't tried it yet with FS2002, but in "real life" approach control is the group that sets you up for the approach. They will give you vectors to intercept the localizer, or they will get you to the IAF (Initial approach fix) an then expect you to perform the procedure turn as depicted on the approach plate. The tower is not involve with this, You contact the tower just before you land, inside the outer marker. You would have to file and instrument flight plan to invoke this.
Rod
"Chris" <teddyma...@eudoramail.com> wrote in message
> I haven't tried it yet with FS2002, but in "real life" approach control is > the group that sets you up for the approach. They will give you vectors to > intercept the localizer, or they will get you to the IAF (Initial approach > fix) an then expect you to perform the procedure turn as depicted on the > approach plate. The tower is not involve with this, You contact the tower > just before you land, inside the outer marker. You would have to file and > instrument flight plan to invoke this.
This is (at least for major parts of europe, and I think in the US it will be similar) not correct. The last radar controller (usually DIRECTOR 124.200 here at Frankfurt when it gets busy) has the task to line you up onto the final. As soon as you are established at least on the localizer you will be given a speed instruction for the final to the outer marker and then be hand´ off to the tower. This often occurs when the aircraft is still 10-15mls out and still has a way to go to the outer marker. This procedure assures that workload is been taken away from the usualy busy approach controllers.
> "Rod Madsen" <rkmad...@bellsouth.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > news:UtqX7.316426$er5.6568997@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com... > > I haven't tried it yet with FS2002, but in "real life" approach control is > > the group that sets you up for the approach. They will give you vectors > to > > intercept the localizer, or they will get you to the IAF (Initial approach > > fix) an then expect you to perform the procedure turn as depicted on the > > approach plate. The tower is not involve with this, You contact the > tower > > just before you land, inside the outer marker. You would have to file and > > instrument flight plan to invoke this.
> This is (at least for major parts of europe, and I think in the US it will > be similar) not correct. The last radar controller (usually DIRECTOR 124.200 > here at Frankfurt when it gets busy) has the task to line you up onto the > final. As soon as you are established at least on the localizer you will be > given a speed instruction for the final to the outer marker and then be > hand´ off to the tower. This often occurs when the aircraft is still > 10-15mls out and still has a way to go to the outer marker. This procedure > assures that workload is been taken away from the usualy busy approach > controllers.
> > "Rod Madsen" <rkmad...@bellsouth.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > > news:UtqX7.316426$er5.6568997@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com... > > > I haven't tried it yet with FS2002, but in "real life" approach control > is > > > the group that sets you up for the approach. They will give you vectors > > to > > > intercept the localizer, or they will get you to the IAF (Initial > approach > > > fix) an then expect you to perform the procedure turn as depicted on the > > > approach plate. The tower is not involve with this, You contact the > > tower > > > just before you land, inside the outer marker. You would have to file > and > > > instrument flight plan to invoke this.
> > This is (at least for major parts of europe, and I think in the US it will > > be similar) not correct. The last radar controller (usually DIRECTOR > 124.200 > > here at Frankfurt when it gets busy) has the task to line you up onto the > > final. As soon as you are established at least on the localizer you will > be > > given a speed instruction for the final to the outer marker and then be > > hand´ off to the tower. This often occurs when the aircraft is still > > 10-15mls out and still has a way to go to the outer marker. This procedure > > assures that workload is been taken away from the usualy busy approach > > controllers.
Yesterday I filed an instrument flight plan between two airports that were close together (KEQY to KCLT). ATC handled it pretty much the way it is really done. They took me to the vicinity of the IAF, reduced my altitude, gave me a vector to intercept the localizer, and cleared me for the approach. On final they sent me to the tower who simply cleared me to land. I had set up IMC weather before invoking the flight plan. This might be required, or they will insist on a visual approach.
Rod
"Steve Barnes" <shbar...@nospam.bellsouth.net> wrote in message
> They do it like that at KTMB Class D.where I fly in and out of. I guess the > details might be different in Europe
> Steve Barnes
> "Rod Madsen" <rkmad...@bellsouth.net> wrote in message > news:q1HX7.325312$er5.6821835@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com... > > OK. I can't speak for Frankfurt, but in the two Class B airports I fly > > into, Dallas and Charlotte, they do it as I described.
> > > "Rod Madsen" <rkmad...@bellsouth.net> schrieb im Newsbeitrag > > > news:UtqX7.316426$er5.6568997@e3500-atl2.usenetserver.com... > > > > I haven't tried it yet with FS2002, but in "real life" approach > control > > is > > > > the group that sets you up for the approach. They will give you > vectors > > > to > > > > intercept the localizer, or they will get you to the IAF (Initial > > approach > > > > fix) an then expect you to perform the procedure turn as depicted on > the > > > > approach plate. The tower is not involve with this, You contact the > > > tower > > > > just before you land, inside the outer marker. You would have to file > > and > > > > instrument flight plan to invoke this.
> > > This is (at least for major parts of europe, and I think in the US it > will > > > be similar) not correct. The last radar controller (usually DIRECTOR > > 124.200 > > > here at Frankfurt when it gets busy) has the task to line you up onto > the > > > final. As soon as you are established at least on the localizer you will > > be > > > given a speed instruction for the final to the outer marker and then be > > > hand´ off to the tower. This often occurs when the aircraft is still > > > 10-15mls out and still has a way to go to the outer marker. This > procedure > > > assures that workload is been taken away from the usualy busy approach > > > controllers.
In article <9A%X7.115914$BX4.7399...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com>, rkmad...@bellsouth.net says...
> Yesterday I filed an instrument flight plan between two airports that were > close together (KEQY to KCLT). ATC handled it pretty much the way it is > really done. They took me to the vicinity of the IAF, reduced my altitude, > gave me a vector to intercept the localizer, and cleared me for the > approach. On final they sent me to the tower who simply cleared me to land. > I had set up IMC weather before invoking the flight plan. This might be > required, or they will insist on a visual approach.
> Rod
I am a beginner. Could you please give details about this flight because that is what I am looking for - ATC guiding me to the approach - and I do not know how to have that on my FS2002.
> I am a beginner. Could you please give details about this flight > because that is what I am looking for - ATC guiding me to the approach > - and I do not know how to have that on my FS2002.
If you set up an IFR flight plan in the flight planner, then talk to the appropriate ATC controllers along the way they'll help you all the way in, including radar following along the way if you ask for it.
1. Set up your airplane at the airport of your choice. (on the runway is OK) 2. Set up IMC weather, i.e visibility less than 3 miles or ceiling less that 1000 feet AGL. 3. Go to flight planner and set up an IFR plan from you airport to another airport with an ILS> 4. Invoke the ATC option 5. You must go through all of the ATC steps (clearance, ground, tower, departure/approach, etc.) or they will cancel your IFR flight plan. 6. Follow ATC directions. You will need the approach plate for landing because you can't see the ground, i.e., you must fly the ILS.
Rod
"Chris" <teddyma...@eudoramail.com> wrote in message
> In article <9A%X7.115914$BX4.7399...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com>, > rkmad...@bellsouth.net says... > > Yesterday I filed an instrument flight plan between two airports that were > > close together (KEQY to KCLT). ATC handled it pretty much the way it is > > really done. They took me to the vicinity of the IAF, reduced my altitude, > > gave me a vector to intercept the localizer, and cleared me for the > > approach. On final they sent me to the tower who simply cleared me to land. > > I had set up IMC weather before invoking the flight plan. This might be > > required, or they will insist on a visual approach.
> > Rod
> I am a beginner. Could you please give details about this flight > because that is what I am looking for - ATC guiding me to the approach - > and I do not know how to have that on my FS2002.
In article <z1kY7.123850$BX4.7936...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com>, rkmad...@bellsouth.net says...
> 1. Set up your airplane at the airport of your choice. (on the runway is > OK) > 2. Set up IMC weather, i.e visibility less than 3 miles or ceiling less > that 1000 feet AGL. > 3. Go to flight planner and set up an IFR plan from you airport to another > airport with an ILS> > 4. Invoke the ATC option > 5. You must go through all of the ATC steps (clearance, ground, tower, > departure/approach, etc.) or they will cancel your IFR flight plan. > 6. Follow ATC directions. You will need the approach plate for landing > because you can't see the ground, i.e., you must fly the ILS.
> Rod
Thanks Rod and other people on this thread for the explanations. I have learned something new here. Could somebody please recommand an particular easy IFR flight plan between 2 airports? (I am a beginner in FS). Something short of about 30 minutes. Thanks
> Thanks Rod and other people on this thread for the explanations. I have > learned something new here. Could somebody please recommand an > particular easy IFR flight plan between 2 airports? (I am a beginner in > FS). Something short of about 30 minutes. Thanks
Chris,
You say you are a beginner and request a simple IFR flight. I will give you step-by-step instructions for such a trip. Please excuse me if I make it too simple. In actual practice it takes longer to become proficient on instruments than it does to get a private pilot certificate. Don't be discouraged if it seems like tasks are piling up faster than you can comply. You should take the lessons that are offered in MSFS.
Here's the set-up: we are going to fly from Monroe, NC, a small town SE of Charlotte, to Charlotte's big airport, Charlotte Douglas Intl. It's only about 25 miles, but ATC will take you around the long way and you will be flying about 50 miles. You should use your GPS for the trip to help you keep situational awareness (know where you are at all times). You should also use your radio panel because you are going to need to tune in the localizer for the runway ATC assigns. You won't know which localizer to tune in (CLT has 6 of them) until you are cleared for the approach.
1. Set yourself up at Monroe's runway 5 by using the WORLD>AIRPORT option and typing in KEQY for the airport identifier
2. Next we have to set up IMC (Instrument Meteorological Conditions) weather so that an IFR flight plan will be the only option. This will force ATC to give us an instrument approach. Do this by using WORLD>WEATHER>ADVANCED WEATHER and choose the CLOUDS tab. Push the little "+" tab to add a cloud layer. Pull the bottom line of the layer graphic down to 500 feet. This puts you in IMC. Make sure the cloud coverage is at least 7/8. Click OK. Next push the VISIBILITY tab and lower the visibility to 2 miles. Push OK. Your airplane should now be on Monroe's runway 5 and the weather outside looks pretty crappy.
3. Now we have to file an IFR flight plan. Go to FLIGHTS>FLIGHT PLANNER and choose your departure airport (KEQY) and your destination airport (KCLT). Choose flight plan type =IFR. Choose routing =DIRECT GPS. Click FIND ROUTE, choose a cruising altitude of 4000 feet. Click OK to save it.
4. Now we are back in the airplane about fly. First invoke ATC by clicking on the little headset icon.. Tune in Charlotte approach, request an IFR clearance, and acknowledge the clearance.
5. Next you tune in Monroe Traffic (push 1) and announce your intention to take off and depart to the north (push 4). Monroe is a little field and doesn't have a tower. Announcing you intentions to "traffic" lets other airplanes in the area know what you are doing so they can stay out of your way. Take off and fly the runway heading (50 degrees) until you are up to about 1200 feet. At that point you can tune in Charlotte approach and follow their commands, They will probably give you a left turn to 345 degrees to take you towards Charlotte. At this point you do nothing but fly heading 345 and climb to 4000 feet. When you reach 4000 feet you level off, reduce throttle, and listen for ATC. They will probably ask you to change to other frequencies as you proceed along. Make the changes and acknowledge them. At his point its good to use the auto pilot if you know how, but that's beyond the scope of this discussion.
6. As you approach Charlotte you will be told to expect the ILS for runway 18R. That means get out the approach plate for 18R, put the localizer frequency into your NAV 1 radio so you will be ready to fly the approach. The frequency for this localizer is 111.3 MHz. Ignore offers to cancel IFR or make a visual approach. That's not what you want to do. You want an instrument approach. Just keep on quietly flying 345 at 4000 feet. Soon your GPS will tell you that you have passed Charlotte, but not to worry, ATC will soon turn you west to intercept the localizer about 15 miles north of the runway. When ATC warns you about traffic and asks you to report it in sight you have to say "not in sight" because you are in clouds and can't see anything.
7. Finally, you will be given a couple of left turns and then be cleared for the approach. At this point you have to know how to follow the localizer and glide slope. You also have to reduce power, lower flaps and gear and control your speed to that which is appropriate for your airplane. If you are using the autopilot, you can turn off the heading mode and turn on the approach mode which will fly you down the path. All you have to do is control airspeed with the throttle.
> You say you are a beginner and request a simple IFR flight. I will give you > step-by-step instructions for such a trip.
<snip>
Rod, excellent steps! A simple question about your instructions, if I may.
> You won't know which localizer to tune in (CLT has 6 of them) until you are > cleared for the approach.
When flying VFR as in real life, the pilot would be expected to tune to the airport's (in your example, CLT) ATIS frequency as soon as viable to get current weather conditions at the field and to get the current landing and departing runways.
Wouldn't a pilot also tune to ATIS while flying IFR to get CLT's landing runway? This would allow the pilot to tune the ILS frequency into NAV1's standby frequency much earlier in the flight, rather than at approach time when a pilot's tasks increase significantly.
> When ATC warns you about traffic and asks you to report it in > sight you have to say "not in sight" because you are in clouds and > can't see anything.
This bugs me about FS2002 ATC. Obviously ATC does not actually issue traffic alerts in bad weather, right?
-- pr
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> Rod, excellent steps! A simple question about your instructions, if I > may.
> > You won't know which localizer to tune in (CLT has 6 of them) until you are > > cleared for the approach.
> When flying VFR as in real life, the pilot would be expected to tune to > the airport's (in your example, CLT) ATIS frequency as soon as viable to > get current weather conditions at the field and to get the current > landing and departing runways.
Yes, you should tune in ATIS in IFR flights as well as VFR. However, FS2002 doesn't seem to give you that option. In any event, CLT is often landing on 3 runways at the same time, 18R, 18L and 25, so you still have to wait until they tell you which approach to expect. They give you plenty of warning.
> Wouldn't a pilot also tune to ATIS while flying IFR to get CLT's landing > runway? This would allow the pilot to tune the ILS frequency into NAV1's > standby frequency much earlier in the flight, rather than at approach > time when a pilot's tasks increase significantly.
Yes. See above.
> > When ATC warns you about traffic and asks you to report it in > > sight you have to say "not in sight" because you are in clouds and > > can't see anything.
> This bugs me about FS2002 ATC. Obviously ATC does not actually issue > traffic alerts in bad weather, right?
Yeah, that a flaw. However, ATC often doesn't know what conditions you are in. You might be on an IFR flight plan while in VMC. The usual response is not "not in sight", but rather "on instruments".
In article <go3Z7.156232$BX4.9436...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com>, rkmad...@bellsouth.net says...
> Chris,
> You say you are a beginner and request a simple IFR flight. I will give you > step-by-step instructions for such a trip. Please excuse me if I make it too > simple. In actual practice it takes longer to become proficient on
Fantastic! I thank you very much Rod for taking the time to write such a detailled and useful explanation. I am going to print it and work on it. I am sure it will help me a lot. THANK YOU.
I tried your flight plan and managed to land safely on the destination airport, which is not so bad for me! I had a few problems though, here they are:
> 2. Next we have to set up IMC (Instrument Meteorological Conditions) weather > so that an IFR flight plan will be the only option. This will force ATC to > give us an instrument approach. Do this by using WORLD>WEATHER>ADVANCED
Just a little question here: if we declare the flight plan as IFR, isn't is the same? Do we have to declare a terrible weather to be sure we get an ILS approach in the end?
> 6. As you approach Charlotte you will be told to expect the ILS for runway > 18R. That means get out the approach plate for 18R, put the localizer > frequency into your NAV 1 radio so you will be ready to fly the approach.
I am not sure I know how to do that. What I did is: open the Radio Panel and choose the frequency 111.3 in the NAV 1 radio. Does that mean that the ILS data are displayed on the VOR 1 indicator? Above this indicator there is a NAV/GPS switch (Cessna), which position should I choose?
> 7. Finally, you will be given a couple of left turns and then be cleared for > the approach. At this point you have to know how to follow the localizer > and glide slope. You also have to reduce power, lower flaps and gear and
How do you know that the ILS signal is received by the onboard instruments? Is there a flashing light on the instrument panel for example? I found very difficult to know when to ignore the instructions from the ATC and follow the ILS indication instead...
> I tried your flight plan and managed to land safely on the destination > airport, which is not so bad for me! I had a few problems though, here > they are:
> > 2. Next we have to set up IMC (Instrument Meteorological Conditions) weather > > so that an IFR flight plan will be the only option. This will force ATC to > > give us an instrument approach. Do this by using WORLD>WEATHER>ADVANCED > Just a little question here: if we declare the flight plan as IFR, > isn't is the same? Do we have to declare a terrible weather to be sure > we get an ILS approach in the end?
I'm not sure. Your suggestion may work (i.e. keep the VMC weather). When I tried it they told me to report downwind for a visual approach. If the weather is VMC, ATC doesn't have to give you an instrument approach.
> > 6. As you approach Charlotte you will be told to expect the ILS for runway > > 18R. That means get out the approach plate for 18R, put the localizer > > frequency into your NAV 1 radio so you will be ready to fly the approach. > I am not sure I know how to do that. What I did is: open the Radio > Panel and choose the frequency 111.3 in the NAV 1 radio. Does that mean > that the ILS data are displayed on the VOR 1 indicator? Above this > indicator there is a NAV/GPS switch (Cessna), which position should I > choose?
You choose the NAV position on the switch. You put the 111.3 in the NAV1 standby postion (on the right) and then push the toggle beneath it to move it into the active posion. The ILS data (azimuth and glide slope) will be presented on the VOR 1 indicator WHEN YOU COME INTO RANGE OF THE ILS. Before that the needles will be centered and it will indicate you are not yet receiving the signal.
> > 7. Finally, you will be given a couple of left turns and then be cleared for > > the approach. At this point you have to know how to follow the localizer > > and glide slope. You also have to reduce power, lower flaps and gear
and
> How do you know that the ILS signal is received by the onboard > instruments? Is there a flashing light on the instrument panel for > example? I found very difficult to know when to ignore the instructions > from the ATC and follow the ILS indication instead...
See above. As soon as you get deflected needles on the VOR 1 indicator you should expect the vertical needle to begin centering on the last heading ATC gave you. When it is centered, you fly the needle (fly a course of about 183 + or - to keep it centered) but hold your assigned altitude until the horizontal needle centers. Thats when you lower gear and one notch of flaps to begin a descent of about 500 ft/min to keep the horizontal needle centered.
What kind of airplane are you flying, Chris? If its a C172 you should fly the approach at about 90 knots with one notch of flaps. Reduce power until you are flying that speed and descending at 500fpm.
Where do you live? It's more fun to work with airports in your vicinity.
Someone asked earlier about an easy IFR Flight Plan.
FS2002 already has several preprogrammed. Check out the chauffer pilot and European airline pilot. All you need to do is follow the controller's instructions, and they will take you the whole way.
I suspect many others have been silent students who've had a quantum leap in their understanding from this thread.
Have printed out your detailed procedure for digestion when I have more time(not allowed back until the lawns are done) Just had a thought - might set up Real Weather for storms in our area! Better wait until it clears up, dear.
On a unrelated matter is there any way of improving on the page layout when printing from Outlook Express? The left margin is nonexistent. Obviously I could copy into Word and format it there but wonder if there is a simpler way.
Many Thanks, John
On a unrelated matter is there any way to
"surfnole" <don_f_dun...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> Someone asked earlier about an easy IFR Flight Plan.
> FS2002 already has several preprogrammed. Check out the chauffer > pilot and European airline pilot. All you need to do is follow the > controller's instructions, and they will take you the whole way.
In article <thmZ7.172274$BX4.9900...@e3500-atl1.usenetserver.com>, rkmad...@bellsouth.net says...
> What kind of airplane are you flying, Chris? If its a C172 you should fly > the approach at about 90 knots with one notch of flaps. Reduce power until > you are flying that speed and descending at 500fpm.
Yes it is a Cessna C172SP: I will follow your advice.
> Where do you live? It's more fun to work with airports in your vicinity.
I live in the South of France (a city called Toulouse). I am going to try and find an airport with ILS approach in my area.
