Thoughts on death
BH206B
Armbruster died. Please bear with me.
If you are involved in aviation for any length of time, you will know some
people who die. Fact of life. You look at a twisted blob of metal in which
someone you know has just perished, and it messes with your mind. Crashes
shake us up, make us wonder if we really need to be involved in an activity
that causes such pain. Eventually, we come to terms with it and move
on...older, wiser (hopefully), and sadder. We don't quit.
Because for some of us, there is no choice. Being a pilot is not just what I
do, it's who I am. My sister the lawyer will call me up (usually after a bad
crash) and say, "Bobby, why don't you quit that and come up here and we'll open
a business?" And I can't. Because not being a pilot WOULD kill me. It would
be the worst kind of torture. Every day I'd be looking up at an airplane or
helicopter flying over and say to myself, "Yeah, I used to do that." NOT being
a pilot scares me. And I will probably fly for a living as long as I can beg,
wheedle, cajole or bribe my way through a flight physical and annual checkride.
(I know, I know...I have an airplane I could fly for pleasure, but it would
not be the same.) It is the reason I probably won't go anywhere within my
company. Get out of the cockpit? Hah!
The point of all the above bullshit is that I'm doing what I want to be doing,
maybe what I was "meant" to do. If I were to die in a crash, my friends and
relatives might get a tiny bit of solitude from the fact that, "He knew the
risks." Of course, the second half of that statement is, "...But why did he
have to take them?" Because I do, is all. I fly.
And so yeah, along with the intense sadness, there is a certain amount of "Gee,
glad it wasn't me" when I hear about a crash. Mike Suldo put it very
succinctly in his post. You do the best you can. You learn as much about
aviation as you can, be the best pilot you can be, EVERY FLIGHT. And you get
right with God. And you don't let crashes and deaths get to you, or they'll
drive you nuts.
Jordan (Wingman150) had his first close brush with death. Airplane he flew,
instructor he knew. Could've been him? Who knows. Don't dwell on it. Say a
prayer for those who are gone, then get back in and fly that bastard better
than you ever did before.
Hey, the rotor blades on my ship might fly off tomorrow. That's okay with me,
I can accept that. But I'll be damned if I crash and burn because of something
stupid that I did or did not do. As much as we joke about flying, and act like
it's nothing but fun, the reality is that it can be quite deadly. Sadly, that
fact is driven home every now and then. And it always hurts. And it always
will.
In memory of Gil, and Allen, and Dan Haseloh, and... and all the others who
have gone before them. Let us not add our name to the list.
Bob Barbanes
Pensacola, Fla.
Petroleum Helicopters
"I've looked at clouds from both sides now, from up and down and still somehow
It's cloud illusions I recall, I really don't know clouds at all." Apologies
to Joni Mitchell
Wingman150
with death, but unfortunately, thats a part of life. I feel the same way you
do. I would die without flying. I thank my lucky starts for you, BWB, Fred,
Rinke, and the rest who have made it possible for me to fly. its not easy to
know that oneday I may die in a crash. to tell you the truth, I think flying
would be the damned scariest way to die. But I'd rather die flying than alone
in a nursing home when I'm 95...Not to mention anything else I might die
doing...I'd rather go doing what I love...Flying. Its been rough. I just got an
E-mail from Allen;s brother, Rich. He gave me some encouraging words. I don't
want top say I'm "past this," but I'm starting to get a grip. I got back in
that plane yesterday. I flew it, and I loved it. I was so busy I didn't even
think about crashing. But you know what, if I did crash and die, the hell with
it...I died doing what I loved. Not to say I WANT to die, and don't respect it,
because I do!!! The only I would ask is a fly-over from all you guys...Have
like 100 damn planes in the air!!! Now THATS a funeral. :o) But you know what,
I've learned that there is more to crashing than dieing. And if I do what you
guys said, and become the best damn pilot out there, there is LESS of a chance
it will happen to me.
Best wishes,
Jordan
RonPilotPI
I keep the following statement in my wallet. It is by Charles Lindbergh, while
he was flying P-38's during World War II. Obviously after his early pilot days
flying mail, and then his Spirit of St. Louis flight across the Atlantic in
1927.
Here it is in it's entirety:
==================================
Titled "A WORTHWHILE TRADE"
Science, freedom, beauty, adventure: What more could you ask of life? Aviation
combined all the elements I loved. There was science in each curve of an
airfoil, in each angle between strut and wire, in the gap of a spark plug or
the color of the exhaust flame. There was freedom in the unlimited horizon, on
the open fields where one landed. A pilot surrounded by beauty of earth and
sky. He brushed treetops with the birds, leapt valleys and rivers, explored the
cloud canyons he had gazed at as a child. Adventure lay in each puff of the
wind.
I began to feel that I lived on a higher plane than the skeptics on the ground
- one that was richer because of its very association with the element of
danger they dreaded, because it was freer of the earth to which they were
bound. In flying, I tasted the wine of the gods of which they could know
nothing. Who valued life more highly, the aviators who spent it on the art they
loved, or these misers who doled it out like pennies through their antlike
days? I decided that if I could fly for 10 years before I was killed in a
crash, it would be a worthwhile trade for an ordinary lifetime.
Charles A Lindbergh, P-38 Pilot, 475th Fighter Group
==================================
Ron
Wingman150
Yet another very wise statement!!! Not only was he one hell of a pilot, but one
hell of a poet if he wrote that!!!
Best wishes,
Jordan
RonPilotPI
>
>Yet another very wise statement!!! Not only was he (Charles Lindbergh) one
hell of a pilot, but >one
>hell of a poet if he wrote that!!!
>
>
>Best wishes,
>Jordan
================================
Yup - Charles lindbergh was a great writer. Look in the library for his early
autobiography written around 1928 after his solo flight across the Atlantic.
Very inspiring book.
Ron - Connecticut
LRobin9900
Sorry for not talking to you lately ,
other things have been in my mind.
I will send you the $10.00you asked for
and i will send more photos .
I hope all is well and you and your family have a Happy new year.
Skip
Craig Wall
Badwater Bill wrote:
> I really like this last line. I was thinking something similar about
> 15 minutes ago when I posted to the thread about crashing on RAH but I
> couldn't explain it in simple terms like this.
>
> I would rather have high quality and live for a short time then have
> poor quality and live forever.
Hehe hehe heh.... if I couldn't fly, even a short time would *seem* like
forever...
Hey Bill- I'm going out to LA the weekend of the 23rd and hope to see
Wingy- but do me a favor, will ya? Talk to the kid and explain to him all
the reasons he ought to join the Lake Elsinore Soaring Club. He thinks
your forced landing was a big deal, but you and I know any sailplane pilot
would shiver with embarrassment if they blew a simple power loss with a
decent road within reach. Tell him I'll pay his initiation fee, and he can
learn to fly the *right* way- motorless.
(And tell him there's a bunch of cute teenaged girls flying gliders,
too. He can go to Michele Boland's web site and find the LESC link- they
have an Air Explorer wing....)
Craig Wall
Beavis
<bh2...@aol.com.net.com> writes
Bob, you'll probably never know how lucky you are! You're doing what I
wanted to do for as long as I can remember. Fate dealt me a shit hand
though which stopped me being allowed to hold a licence, so I never
reached my goal and had to make a few quid instead (which is NO
compensation I can tell you)
I'd trade it all in a second to have had the opportunity to pursue my
ambition, but it wasn't to be, so c'est la vie.
As for flying and dying, I want to die in my sleep like my Granddad: not
wide awake screaming like his backrest passengers :-)
>
>"I've looked at clouds from both sides now, from up and down and still somehow
>It's cloud illusions I recall, I really don't know clouds at all." Apologies
>to Joni Mitchell
Don't apologise to Joni for that. Wait till you've heard me sing it!
(LOL)
Beav
--
E-mail me if you feel the desire at the usual place
Beavis at nachos dot demon dot co dot uk (No xxx's)
You can even visit my website at WWW.nachos.demon.co.uk
GeeMan8799
> other things have been in my mind.
>
> I will send you the $10.00you asked for
> and i will send more photos .
Geez, a little inappropriate for this thread, dont ya think? Keep the
personals to the private e-mail. Please.
BTW, what "things have been IN your mind"?
Govt. planting those mind control nodes agin?
The Gee Man
Micbloo
>wide awake screaming like his backrest passengers :-)
Or like my aunt. 95 years old, in her own house, quietly, with someone who
cared about her by her side.
Wingy is still young. For young people, death is something they see on TV or
in the movies. Not something they experienced(hopefully) very much. I can see
his experience scaring the hell out of him. But as the days go on he'll grow
stronger and though he will never forget this incident it isnt something that
will haunt him. He will learn from it and take those lessons with him.
Gerard
Badwater Bill
I think he made a mistake and hit the wrong button. I do it all the
time myself.
BWB
Badwater Bill
I really like this last line. I was thinking something similar about
15 minutes ago when I posted to the thread about crashing on RAH but I
couldn't explain it in simple terms like this.
I would rather have high quality and live for a short time then have
poor quality and live forever.
BWB
Badwater Bill
Deal. I'll tell him. You know Craig that's a funny post you just
made. I was checking another CFI out in the RV-6 that day when that
engine puked out all of its oil. I looked over at him and sort said,
"Okay, let me have it. We are glider pilots now."
That was the end of it. I just went into my glider mode and put it
down safely in a flood control basin about 5 minutes later. I
remember thinking back about it that night, wondering if I felt any
fear. The answer to that was NO. Since I'm a glider CFI with about
1000 hours in sailplanes, I simply shifted gears and became a glider
pilot.
The only emotion I recalled when thinking about it later on was that I
was pissed off. Not scared, I was angry. I remember thinking, "Shit,
this kind of crap just never happens to me." But it did! I had a
catastrophic engine failure, bigger than hell. I also remember that
my hand was shaking a bit when the tower couldn't figure out where we
were in the desert and it was 120 degrees out as I when for the
Xponder and squawked 7700.
Later on I laughed like hell when ATC told me I rang every bell in
every radar room between Salt Lake City and San Francisco. Hell,
that's what I pay taxes for.
BBWWWAHHHAHAAAAA!
Anyway,,, your suggestions are well taken. Once you can fly gliders
and you lose an engine it's mostly a simple change of thought process
if you are lucky enough to have something you can glide to that's
landable.
BWB
Wingman150
>too. He can go to Michele Boland's web site and find the LESC link- they
>have an Air Explorer wing....)
HUH??? WHAT??? GIIIIIIIIRLS???
WHERE????????????????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?????????????????????????
Getting ***VERY*** excited,
Jordan
Wingman150
This may be sort of off-topic, but maybe not. About 2 months ago, it was
red-ribbon week at school. You know, say not to drugs and alcohol. Well, our
school is pretty big, but not THAT big...about 600 people. We are right next to
the Loma Linda hospital. We had a speaker come in that works in the ER there,
primarily with teen accidents. HE did something I never expected for any
speaker to do. HE turned down the lights, and showed us actual pictures of dead
people. A dead person lying in a car after a crash. A motorcyclist that was
drunk nit a telephone pole straight on. A young 16 year old girl left a party
and wasn't even drinking. However, when she left, she was hit by someone from
that party, and killed. He showed pictures upon pictures of DEAD people. No cut
outs or anything. One person was maulled by a lion after getting high and
getting into a lions cage in San Diego CA. I didn't sleep that night. First of
all, the way they died...There was just no reason for it. Second, I realized
that I was young. I have time until I get old...I want to live. And I realized
that. It scared the living shit out of me to be quite frank. From that day on,
I vowed to never do drugs, PERIOD. But like you said, I'm young...I have time
until I "supposed" to die. I think thats what scared me the most. But you know
what, someone said something that applies to me...I think it was Bob. He said
is he stopped flying, he would die. So would I. I know flying and drugs are two
very different things. They are both addictive, they are both "fun." They are
both playing with our lives. But you know what, I'd die for flying. I wouldn't
die for drugs.
I didn't mean this to sound like a drug free program ad, just to say that those
photos really had an impact on me. It made me realize what you just said about
being young...I still have time to die.
Flying is something I will never stop. It is just mentally draining when a
fried dies doing what you love to do most.
Best wishes,
Jordan
Badwater Bill
Hang in there Jordan. I forgot that at 15 you have this problem.
It's been so long ago for me that I'd forgotten. Sometimes I think
back that there was something I used to do with girls that was
fun...but I forget what it was.
BWB
Management Company
want to live forever. Long line flying scares me from the ground, but
as the Huey spins up, the familiar turbine whine, control harmony and
thumbs up from my crew chief reminds me that this really is just another
day at work. The same goes in my ag plane. The big 2B20 prop and
radial engines strong beat calms the nerves and puts the fear back into
perspective. Flying is safe and I don't worry about component failure
any more than I worry about the brakes on my car failing as I crest a
steep hill. I do watch my fuel and weather. And I maintain the ships I
fly.
That is why the senseless injuries and deaths caused by the piece of
shit known as the Mini-500 angers me so much. The trust that we as
pilots have in our flying machines extended to this machine. It did not
earn out trust, we granted it to the ship because we believed the
builder of the kit had moral standards, and that he had our interest as
fellow pilots as his first priority. Others kit machines (rv's,
kitfoxs) have shown that inexpensive does not have to equate to poor
engineering and death. When these kits are involved with trauma the
steps that the kits suppliers go through to keep the builders good will
is proof that their trust is earned.
The Revolution kits continuing terrible accident record and limited
post crash answers have broken the trust. Flying the mini 500 is like
kissing the devil, the foul taste is sure to make you gag.
The point of this is that for me the mini 500 experience is
representative of everything bad in aviation, I hate it for how it has
tainted a passion for hovering flight that few get to experience.
Fortunatly, because I have other ships to enjoy, the stench of its being
is reduced as I lock it away in a cold dark hanger..
Joseph Berto
"In memory of Gil and the others who have gone west before him."
>
Craig Wall
Badwater Bill wrote:
> Deal. I'll tell him. You know Craig that's a funny post you just
> made. I was checking another CFI out in the RV-6 that day when that
> engine puked out all of its oil. I looked over at him and sort said,
> "Okay, let me have it. We are glider pilots now."
>
> That was the end of it. I just went into my glider mode and put it
> down safely in a flood control basin about 5 minutes later. I
> remember thinking back about it that night, wondering if I felt any
> fear. The answer to that was NO. Since I'm a glider CFI with about
> 1000 hours in sailplanes, I simply shifted gears and became a glider
> pilot.
Yup. I once heard the Feds had statistics that suggested that 10 hours in
gliders reduced the incidence of a blatant mistake in a power loss by over
90%. And, modern jet airliners have been successfully landed deadstick twice
that I know of- a 747 on a frozen lake and and Airbus on an autobahn- and both
times the pilot was a sailplaner.
I want Jordan to learn the *real* essentials- and to me, that means two
things: model airplanes and soaring. Everything else is frosting.
Seriously- I'll pony up the initiation fee for the kid. I'm leaving for
Florida in about 20 minutes, but I'll talk to both of you when I get back, and
I expect to get to LA in about three weeks after that, and we'll take a little
"field trip" to Lake Elsinore. (I was going to bring my boomtrainer, but it
won't be done quite that soon.)
Craig Wall
Thomas A Nelson
die,then to never flown and die aney way.
T.NELSON Heilo & fixed wing pilot :)
RonPilotPI
Craig Wall
================================
Nope - it was a 767, not a 747, that made a dead stick landing at a closed
military base in Canada, due to fuel starvation from miscalculating gallons,
pounds, and liters of fuel. The pilot was certified in gliders.
Ron
BH206B
> modern jet airliners have been successfully landed deadstick twice
>both
>times the pilot was a sailplaner.
You know, I thought I was "up" on most airliner crashes. But the only
deadstick landing I remember (senility, you understand) was the Air Canada 767
that was landed on the closed dragstrip by a former sailplane (co)pilot.
Okay, I showed you mine; you show me yours. Details?
Personally, I think Jordan should concentrate on ONE thing, his PPL. Forget
boomtrainers and gyros and sailplanes and R/C's (sorry, old boy) and any of
those other distractions...for now. There will be plenty of time/opportunity
for that chaff after he's rated. Sheesh, he's only sixteen! One thing at a
time. FOCUS! You guys is pulling him in sixteen different erections... I
mean DIrections (sorry, I was just reading that bit about those young, nubile
girls in that sailplane club...can I join??).
Bob "One Step At A Time" Barbanes
Pensacola, Fla.
Petroleum Helicopters
"I've looked at clouds from both sides now, from up and down and still somehow
Beavis
<bh2...@aol.com.net.com> writes
>Craig wrote:
>> modern jet airliners have been successfully landed deadstick twice
>>that I know of- a 747 on a frozen lake and and Airbus on an autobahn- and
>>both
>>times the pilot was a sailplaner.
>
>You know, I thought I was "up" on most airliner crashes. But the only
>deadstick landing I remember (senility, you understand) was the Air Canada 767
>that was landed on the closed dragstrip by a former sailplane (co)pilot.
>
>Okay, I showed you mine; you show me yours. Details?
>
>Personally, I think Jordan should concentrate on ONE thing, his PPL. Forget
>boomtrainers and gyros and sailplanes and R/C's (sorry, old boy) and any of
>those other distractions...for now. There will be plenty of time/opportunity
>for that chaff after he's rated. Sheesh, he's only sixteen! One thing at a
>time. FOCUS! You guys is pulling him in sixteen different erections... I
>mean DIrections (sorry, I was just reading that bit about those young, nubile
>girls in that sailplane club...can I join??).
Bob, nubile young bints aren't interested in old farts that play around
IN choppers, they're interested in what guys can do WITH 'em!
Beav
Mike Patterson
That's why you had the picture of the ...uhhh... flap hinges...on your
web page for so long...
Mike "I wasn't born yesterday...or was I?" Patterson
bill...@ix.netcom.com (Badwater Bill) wrote:
<<SNIP>>
> Sometimes I think
>back that there was something I used to do with girls that was
>fun...but I forget what it was.
>
>BWB
>
>
<<SNIP>>
Micbloo
I thought Wingy said flying was better than sex!! Now all of a sudden the kid
is lusting like the teenager he is!! Ah, to be young again!!
Gerard
Bill Sykes
<snipped>
> But you know
>what, someone said something that applies to me...I think it was Bob. He said
>is he stopped flying, he would die. So would I. I know flying and drugs are two
>very different things. They are both addictive, they are both "fun." They are
>both playing with our lives. But you know what, I'd die for flying. I wouldn't
>die for drugs.
>
>Flying is something I will never stop. It is just mentally draining when a
>fried dies doing what you love to do most.
>
>Best wishes,
>Jordan
Hey Wingy you left out that they're both expensive! I also noticed you
said you would never take drugs, (that's great!), but failed to
mention anything about drinking. Kind of reminds me of an old joke:
There once was a pilot who after the days work was finished, would go
to the bar and drink himself senseless. After a week or so the
bartender asked the pilot why he drank so much.
The pilot replied,"Because I'm afraid of flying."
The bartender said, "Then WHY do you FLY?"
The pilot said, "Because I love to drink!"
On the serious side Wingy, I related your feelings to some of the guys
at work. They (and I) wish you well and advise that you not dwell on
it. Like so many have said before, just learn from it and adjust your
attitude and habits towards not letting it happen to you.
My first brush with aviation death came as I was working in Utah as a
lineman. The local helicopter operarator's cheif pilot was flying a
Bell 47G, with the mission of taking a photographer to shoot pictures
of the Great Salt Lake for National Geographic. They came to the pumps
and I refueled them, then they set out for the lake. My shift was up
and so I went home.
When I returned the next day, I found out that they had crashed,
killing the pilot, but the photographer had been thrown free because
he was not strapped in because he was taking pictures. Later it was
discovered that a bolt in the control linkage had sheared, sending the
blade through the cabin and killing the pilot.
Needless to say I was spooked, especially knowing that I was the last
person to see him alive. That pilot was a really great guy and I felt
it unfair that such a fate should befall him. He didn't even have a
chance because all control was lost.
That was 25 years ago, and I'm sorry to say I have lost other great
people to flying since. But, I've learned that it is a part of
aviation, as well as life. I guess I've adopted a more or less
fatalistic view towards death which is, when your number comes up,
it's your time to go, so don't worry about it. Just do all that you
can to prevent it, (or invite it).
That's why I have the signature line that I do. Another would be,
Takeoffs are optional, Landings are mandantory!
Take care Wingy, and read (and heed) the signature,
Bill Sykes
"Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even
greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any
carelessness, incapacity, or neglect" Author unknown.
tom c
BH206B <bh2...@aol.com.net.com> wrote in article
<19981230192619...@ng98.aol.com>...
> > time. FOCUS! You guys is pulling him in sixteen different
erections... I
> mean DIrections (sorry, I was just reading that bit about those young,
nubile
> girls in that sailplane club...can I join??).
>
> Bob "One Step At A Time" Barbanes
>
>
Just don't fly within 6 hours of taking Viagra - one guy landed rough after
manipulating the wrong stick :)
Tom Cooper
tom c
Wingman150 <wingm...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19981230015206...@ng137.aol.com>...
> Hey Gerard,
>
> . We had a speaker come in that works in the ER there,
> primarily with teen accidents. HE did something I never expected for any
> speaker to do. HE turned down the lights, and showed us actual pictures
of dead
> people.
Another interesting read is "The Knife and Gun Club" by Eugene Richards or
"How We Die" by Sherwin B. Nuland.
Anyway Wingy you got a photo journey into my world, my career. I dance with
the Reaper on a regular basis, hell sometimes I even win. But the bottom
line is no matter how many times we beat the Reaper, eventually he is going
to win. So the question becomes not if but when we are going to end. The
second and by for most important question is - what are we going to do with
our GIFT of time. Are we going to wallow it away beset by fear and walled
in so as assume no risks? Or, are we going to use the gift to grow, expand
and make a contribution to the world around us? Are we going to live, or
just die slowly over 70 to 80 years. Why do people take recreational
drugs? So they don't feel, to numb feeling or create false good feelings.
It is a wall, an armor against risk, against chancing a negative feeling.
It is fear, fear of living, fear of experiencing, fear of not being cool,
fear of having to stand on your own merit. Flying, is the diametrical
opposite an embracement of life, experience, self reliance and
self-confidence.
How does this little thanatopsis relate to flight? Flying is a conscious
choice to experience life. I fly because I choose to live, to see other
places, meet other people, to not limit myself to the boob tube and other
peoples' dreams. To not take a risk, to stay walled up in convention, to do
the TV, Bingo, neighborhood bar routine is to die slowly, not live. Yes
there is a risk of an early loss of the gift. But the gift will have been
used, not wasted away. And everyday existence has a risk. At my job one
simple needle stick could kill me albeit slowly. Many nurses and Paramedics
have paid the ultimate price for our careers. We're still not quitting, we
make a positive contribution to our world, we choose to live life not die
slowly. By choosing a career that makes you feel that heady rush of life is
a choice that makes the world a better place. It is a life well spent not
misered into meaning at end - nothing.
Tom Cooper
RotorDyne
>manipulating the wrong stick :)
>Tom Cooper
(Q) What do Disneyland and Viagra have in common? (A) They both have at least
a 30 minute wait for a 2 minute ride.
Flygyros
If your going to fly be the best at it learn from everybody and there mistakes,
and never show off ,because when you go down they will still be around not you
so take it from me that i have wrecked 4 times and have been lucky to walk oway
with my life.
your amigo
Esteban
Beavis
<th...@spambitesptd.net> writes
>
>
>BH206B <bh2...@aol.com.net.com> wrote in article
><19981230192619...@ng98.aol.com>...
>> > time. FOCUS! You guys is pulling him in sixteen different
>erections... I
>> mean DIrections (sorry, I was just reading that bit about those young,
>nubile
>> girls in that sailplane club...can I join??).
>>
>> Bob "One Step At A Time" Barbanes
>>
>>
>manipulating the wrong stick :)
Having a bit of a hard time was he Tom :-)
Beav
Badwater Bill
(Mike Patterson) wrote:
>RIGHT Bill...
>
>That's why you had the picture of the ...uhhh... flap hinges...on your
>web page for so long...
>
>Mike "I wasn't born yesterday...or was I?" Patterson
SSSHHHHHH! ......ooooohh! You weren't suppose to tell, Mike. I
think that picture of the Navy blue RV-6 at Arlington this summer was
real nice too, don't you?
http://www.angelfire.com/nv/rvpilot/Adults.html
Please don't tell my mom about this website!
BWB
George Moore
George
Craig Wall
RonPilotPI wrote:
IIRC, the 747 incident was about 30 years ago, when it was refused a landing
following a skyjacking and was being herded around for hours by some fighters
and ran out of gas. Long before the 767 was built. *Two* sailplane pilots in
that cockpit- Krauts-, the way I heard it. (I got this from an airline pilot in
our soaring club- and this was back in the late 60's, not too long after the 747
came out.)
Craig Wall
Craig Wall
BH206B wrote:
> Craig wrote:
> > modern jet airliners have been successfully landed deadstick twice
> >that I know of- a 747 on a frozen lake and and Airbus on an autobahn- and
> >both
> >times the pilot was a sailplaner.
>
> You know, I thought I was "up" on most airliner crashes. But the only
> deadstick landing I remember (senility, you understand) was the Air Canada 767
> that was landed on the closed dragstrip by a former sailplane (co)pilot.
>
> Okay, I showed you mine; you show me yours. Details?
See my other reply- I got this from another airline pilot- 30 years ago. Long
before the 767 incident. Hunt for it if you want to.
>
>
> Personally, I think Jordan should concentrate on ONE thing, his PPL. Forget
> boomtrainers and gyros and sailplanes and R/C's (sorry, old boy) and any of
> those other distractions...for now. There will be plenty of time/opportunity
> for that chaff after he's rated. Sheesh, he's only sixteen! One thing at a
> time. FOCUS! You guys is pulling him in sixteen different erections... I
> mean DIrections (sorry, I was just reading that bit about those young, nubile
> girls in that sailplane club...can I join??).
>
> Bob "One Step At A Time" Barbanes
I absolutely disagree. The boomtrainer will make him aware of structures, if
nothing else, and there's no reason at all he needs to spend money on it. And
model airplanes and sailplanes are best mastered BEFORE the power PPL. I consider
any other opinion on this to just be *ignorant*, period.
I mean, *come on*....you want to make a cookie-cutter pilot out of him? Since
when has breadth been detrimental to depth? And you *really* think sailplanes
ought to come *AFTER* a power ticket? That shows what YOU know; *tell* him,
Bill....
Craig ( Jeez, I go away for 4 days and the cowboys take over...)Wall
RonPilotPI
>following a skyjacking and was being herded around for hours by some fighters
>and ran out of gas. Long before the 767 was built.
Craig Wall
=================================
OK - you made me look up the details of the Boeing 767 deadstick landing I
referred to, in disputing your comment that it was a 747.
On July 23, 1983 an Air Canada Boeing 767 ran out of fuel on a flight from
Montreal to Edmonton, Alberta due to problems with calculating and reading the
fuel level. The plane made a successful dead-stick landing at the closed
Canadian Air Force base called Gimli near Winnipeg, Manitoba. Captain Bob
Pearson was a rated glider pilot and made the landing, touching down within 800
feet of the runway threshold. Drag racing was going on at the closed base that
day, but the people on the runway scattered, and no one was injured.
I'm not aware of any similar deadstick landing of a 747.
Ron
Beavis
<ronpi...@aol.com> writes
There WAS an incident with a 747 Ron, where it flew through the
"effluence" thrown up by Mt. St. Helens and choked all 4 engines. The
pilot managed to re-start after a goodly amount of time spent as a
glider though, so a dead-stick landing wasn't called for. I wonder if
there's some confusing of the 2 incidents happening?
Beav
--
E-mail me if you feel the desire at the usual place
Beavis at nachos dot demon dot co dot uk (No xxx's)
You can even visit my website at WWW.nachos.demon.co.uk
Badwater Bill
I agree with everything you say here Craig. What I'd like to see is
for the kid to get a glider rating first, build and fly some model
RC's at the same time, move on to the power PPL then transistion to
rotorcraft through a gyro first then the Robie.
But, the kid ain't rich. In fact myself and a few other generous guys
have donated to help him learn to fly. He can't afford to go
sailplaning, RCing and Gyroing. The cheapest way is to buy him Cessna
150 time. Sure, it's not going to teach him all the skills I'd like
him to have but it will get him in the air fast and allow him to start
thinking about alternative forms of flight.
I was so poor, I was 25 years old before I could afford my first RC
radio and airplane. That was a Kraft Sportster 5-channel. The year
was about 1970 or so and I remember it cost me $250 bucks. I was only
making $1500 a year in those days while going to college. It was a
major expenditure.
Nowadays, I buy a new radio with every RC I build. They are only $145
buck for a 4-channel Futaba on 1999 dollars. The servos in the 1970
era were $40 each. Now they are $15 and it's 1999 dollars. RC flying
is cheaper than it's ever been in the history of man. These costs
today if extrapolated back to 1970 equate to about $50 for the radio
and $5 per servo.
Anyway, although it's cheap for adults, it's expensive for Jordan. He
must focus on the PPL in a power plane. He's also in high school and
has a ton of homework to do. He can't be spreading himself thin.
He'll be a cookie cutter pilot when he gets through, there's no doubt
about it. In fact he won't be worth a shit. But, that's why he has
you, me, Carl Johansson, O'ring, Richard Riley, and many others.
We'll tune his ass up. I'll have him doing loops in my RV-6 by the
end of this year and you'll probably have him on the boom trainer.
Plus, I'm a glider CFI. I may spend some time with him in a sailplane
this coming summer. In the next few years, he'll see most of it.
BWB
Micbloo
And speaking of close calls, on Saturday a Beechcraft was on final to
Republic Airport in Farmingdale NY when something went wrong. The pilot couldnt
make the runway and crashe landed - in a CEMETARY!!!
Both pilot and passenger suffered minor injuries!!
Gerard
Badwater Bill
You and Bill Sykes are just very profound and astute people. Great
posts. I thought I would think back and tell you all of my first
encounter with death and flying.
When I was in high school I was dirt poor. I washed cars mowed lawns,
worked my butt off to try and make $10.00 a week. In the 1960's you
got a buck for mowing a lawn and 50 cents for washing a car. I also
played the piano and organ real well and had a small band. I'd make
another $10 a week playing for high school dances. Of course I had
other expenses but I'd try to fly an hour every week or two when I was
a senior in high school. I soloed (legally) in 1967 and worked
pumping gas at the airport the summer after my graduation while I
waited to go to college.
The lead guitar player in our band (Chuck Baker) also worked at the
local airport that summer. I got him a job as a line-boy too. Well,
I soloed and I was poor. So, one evening I told Chuck if he would pay
the $10 /hr on the Cessna 150 I'd take him flying after dark. He was
very excited and he had 3 hours of dual himself by that time.
We met at the airport about 9 p.m. on a night at about the end of
August. I took him up for an hour. We flew over Hoover Dam, over Las
Vegas, then back to Boulder City where we lived. The runway in those
days started downhill on the outskirts of town but ran right at the
city and terminated at a grocery store just at the beginning of
dense-pack homes. There were big transmission lines there too. It was
a dangerous airport. You landed uphill and took off downhill. This
night, I wanted to plant the airplane on the end of the runway in the
dark, let Chuck out, and then taxi up the runway toward the city where
we all parked. I blew it and came either too high or too hot. I
can't remember. So, I punched it and went around. It was one of
those darker-than-hell nights too, but I made it around okay. I
landed, let Chuck out then continued up the hill toward town to park
the ship. Everything went fine.
Two weeks later I was out flying during the day. When I got back I
was roaring around in my taxi to get it into the parking place as fast
as I could and shut off the Hobbs meter. Hell, every 10th was another
buck, and equated to two car washings or a lawn mowing. Bad move! I
swung into the parking place to close to my old 1953 Chevy Pickup and
smacked the wingtip on the cab of my truck.
After shutting down and looking at the damage, I destroyed the spar.
It was bent at the root and the leading edge of the tip from the
fiberglass tip cover in about 2 feet was flattened. I was in deep
shit. I wrote a note on a big piece of white paper that said. "Do not
fly this airplane. Damage to wingtip" and I placed it on the top of
the instrument panel. I was sick. I figured I'd have to wash cars
for 50 years to pay for this. I called the flying club president and
told him about it but I didn't tell my dad. My dad was a maniac.
He's have come unglued and kicked my butt. So, I went home that night
(Friday) and prayed all night long for something to come along which
would get me out of this mess. I really did too. I prayed, I
meditated, I asked for help from God. I was pretty religious in those
days and I did transcendental meditation too which I thought at the
time might give me an edge with the Universe! Ha Ha!
On Saturday night (the next day) all the power in the entire city went
out at about 9:30. It was the first week in September 1967 and I was
worrying about registration at the University on Monday morning plus I
was dirt poor and knew I'd have a big bill to pay for this stunt and
would eventually have to tell my father who was a maniac. The power
stayed out for some reason. So I jumped on my motor scooter (Cushman
Eagle) and went for a ride (cheaper gas per mile). I ended up
following some fire trucks to some sort of incident. There was a road
block set up by the police at a gateway to a trailer park inside of a
6 foot wall. I parked my scooter and started walking toward the wall.
I could see lights on the other side and a lot of activity. I can't
remember what I said but I ran into my high school physics teacher in
the street and said something sort of funny about there being a fire
or something. John Milburn, my high school physics teacher said,
"Bill, you might want to not go over there so excited and joking
because there are two guys who crashed an airplane."
I looked over the wall and 30 feet away there was the C-150 completely
destroyed. It had burned, the wings were evaporated where they
attached to the fuselage as was all of the other superstructure around
the two bodies. I could hardly tell that those were human bodies
there because they were burned beyond recognition. My eyes went to
the N-number as rapidly as I could and it was the C-150 where I had
trashed wing.
I was panic stricken. I started yelling at the police that I'd put a
message in that airplane not to fly it. It had damage to the
structure. No one seemed to listen much. Then I said, "Who is it?
Who are those two people there that look like something that's been on
a rotisserie for 8 hours." Someone responded that it was Chuck Baker.
It was Chuck alright. The guy I'd spent all of high school with
playing in a band and chasing girls. The only child of a couple great
people. I KNEW I'D KILLED HIM. The other kid was named Bill Cerros
who was also one of my buddies but not as close as Chuck.
Chuck had been accepted to a big university and was just waiting like
me to leave in a couple days. He'd been at a party and was drinking.
He was bragging about being a pilot to some of them and they all said,
"Yeah, right Chuck. What a bunch of bull shit." The challenges got
stronger and Bill Cerros told him he'd pay for the flight if Chuck
would prove he was a pilot. Many gathered at the airport to watch the
big man pilot (with three hours logged) steal and airplane and take a
passenger. They always kept the key in the glove box.
I thought they'd taken off uphill toward the city and crashed because
the wing was damaged and they probably couldn't climb. It turns out
that was not the case. They had been flying for about 30 minutes and
were coming back in the dark. They were landing uphill toward the
city. They had made three go-arounds and on the final one they struck
the 240,000 volt transmission lines, burst into flames and flat spun
into a trailer park...dying.
Well, I was fraught with mental misery about what might have actually
occurred. Were they fine and found the note I'd left while flying?
Then panic-stricken tried to milk it back to the airport? Had the
wing come off? Was the wing damaged enough that it adversely affected
the flight characteristics of the machine?
It was a time of turmoil. The Viet Nam war was blazing strong. I had
no money and was on a scholarship or I'd have to go to war. I didn't
understand why we were killing people in Asia and it worried me. My
buddy just died in that airplane. My dad was an ass hole and figured
anyone who went to college was just avoiding getting up and going to
work. I didn't have a girl friend, I wasn't that smart and had to
study about 50 hours a week outside of class to make reasonable
grades. It was all tumbling in my head. Almost none of it made any
sense. I was in hard core Chemistry, Calculus, Physics, English 101,
PE, Psychology. Jesus, there was no break. My head spins thinking
about it now. It was a miserable period in my life.
I wandered around for a couple months wondering how or if I had
anything to do with his death. The guilt was strong but not
overwhelming. Finally I just had to let it go. There was nothing I
could do to affect the outcome of that flight 2 months after the fact.
I may have had some responsibility with those deaths but I couldn't
let it ruin my life. And, I didn't, even as a young man. It is what
it is. The best we can do when a buddy like Gil Armbruster goes away
is to help their family deal with the grief and get on with the rest
of our lives.
Chuck Baker was only the first. There were more. And, if I live
another 20 years, there will be more that I know, like Gil and Allen.
It's just the way it is. In flight, you press on and if you are lucky
you get to live. As you contemplate your mistakes and your
experiences you spend many hours in meditation about how stupid you
really are! But, people like me were born to fly. I have to fly. I
have no choice. I never did. When I was 4 years old I had a pedal
airplane not a car. I was flying 1/2 A models on U-control strings
when I was 8 years old. If I'd have been born rich I'd have done a
lot more when I was young but that was not the case. Now, at almost
50 years old I flew a helicopter today solo in a manner that cannot
even be described. It was spiritual. It was the ultimate freedom. I
landed on a mountain, shut down and sat on a rock for an hour...but
that's another story.
Many of us didn't pick this. It is what we are. It is who we are. I
for one had no choice. It's like being born a male. I had nothing to
do with it. I had to fly. I was driven. I am driven. I must fly
and I do.
Badwater Bill
BH206B
> And
>model airplanes and sailplanes are best mastered BEFORE the power PPL. I
>consider
>any other opinion on this to just be *ignorant*, period.
>
>
Ahh, what a bunch of bullshit. Sailplane rating will make you a better pilot?
Gimme a break. Oh yeah, they're relevant. NO power, and spoilers to control
glidepath. Sailplane won't teach him anything he can't learn at the controls
of a 150 or (even better!) a Traumahawk. That's like all of those morons who
say you can't be a REAL pilot until you master a tailwheel airplane. That's
elitist, narrow-minded thinking.
> I mean, *come on*....you want to make a cookie-cutter pilot out of him?
I don't want to make anything out of him. I want him to make it himself. He's
not a guinea pig or social experiment. Jordan has the drive and motivation
(and probably talent) that he is NOT going to become a "cookie-cutter" pilot,
no matter what he learns in. Just as I am not a cookie-cutter pilot even
though I somehow managed to fly all these years without a glider rating.
However, there is such a thing as too many distractions.
The boy should focus on one thing, his PPL, and acheive that. Afterward, if he
wants to dally with useless ratings, he can get his Sailplane. Or a tailwheel
checkout.
Bob
MSULDO
Mike
Ric
recovered 150 bodies....and are still digging.
Ric
Micbloo wrote:
--
џиџр
Craig Wall
Badwater Bill wrote:
> You and Bill Sykes are just very profound and astute people. Great
> posts. I thought I would think back and tell you all of my first
> encounter with death and flying.
>
Amen, Bill.
Craig Wall