General Tibbets Goes West
C J Campbell
--
Waddling Eagle
World Famous Flight Instructor
Morgans
"C J Campbell" < wrote
> He was 92. God speed, General.
Damn. Another fine one of the great generation gone.
Guys like him are pretty dang tough to come by.
Rest easy, brave one.
--
Jim in NC
Gatt
>
> Damn. Another fine one of the great generation gone.
>
> Guys like him are pretty dang tough to come by.
I always wondered how well he slept at night long after the war.
Not saying what he did was wrong, but, so many men of virtue who knew they
were fighting the good fight or who had no choice but to kill are haunted by
their war. The pilot of my grandfather's plane never talked about it to his
family, and the co-pilot shut down to the point where he refused to
believe--he got angry at the suggestion--that there were ever B-17s that
weren't olive drab when I spoke with him a few years ago. One of the
officers later committed suicide. Very brave men who did what they had to
do, but couldn't bear to remember.
To be reminded of that every time the History Channel or somebody talked
about dropping The Bomb must have weighed heavy on the old warrior. May he
rest in eternal peace.
-c
Blueskies
"Gatt" <ga...@damnnearwiley00.com> wrote in message news:13ikm3h...@corp.supernews.com...
>>> He was 92. God speed, General.
>>
>> Damn. Another fine one of the great generation gone.
>>
>> Guys like him are pretty dang tough to come by.
>
> I always wondered how well he slept at night long after the war.
>
They had a recorded interview with him on the news tonight. He said that war was immoral, and he did what he had to do
in that immoral situation. He also said that he slept well at night...
BT
as a B-1 Aircraft Commander in IRAQ and I've lost track of him.
BT
"Morgans" <jsmo...@charterJUNK.net> wrote in message
news:PHqWi.30$Kq...@newsfe05.lga...
M.W. Barrow
>>
>> Damn. Another fine one of the great generation gone.
>>
>> Guys like him are pretty dang tough to come by.
>
> I always wondered how well he slept at night long after the war.
Based on a radio interview I heard him give a couple years ago, I'd guess he
selpt just fine.
IIUC, much of PTS was from ABJECT FEAR for themselves and their buddies, not
for what they did to the enemy.
>
> Not saying what he did was wrong, but, so many men of virtue who knew they
> were fighting the good fight or who had no choice but to kill are haunted
> by their war. The pilot of my grandfather's plane never talked about it
> to his family, and the co-pilot shut down to the point where he refused to
> believe--he got angry at the suggestion--that there were ever B-17s that
> weren't olive drab when I spoke with him a few years ago. One of the
> officers later committed suicide. Very brave men who did what they had to
> do, but couldn't bear to remember.
See above. Also, get the DVD set for "Band of Brothers" and listen to the
interviews of the original men from the 101st.
>
> To be reminded of that every time the History Channel or somebody talked
> about dropping The Bomb must have weighed heavy on the old warrior.
Again, based on the radio interview mentioned above, I don't think so.
> May he rest in eternal peace.
Indeed! Godspeed, General.
Gatt
"Blueskies" <nospamb...@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:3gtWi.9900$Pv2....@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
>>> Damn. Another fine one of the great generation gone.
>>>
>>> Guys like him are pretty dang tough to come by.
> They had a recorded interview with him on the news tonight. He said that
> war was immoral, and he did what he had to do in that immoral situation.
> He also said that he slept well at night...
I'm glad to hear that.
-c
Gatt
"M.W. Barrow" <matt_...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:ATtWi.153$M56...@newsfe16.lga...
> See above. Also, get the DVD set for "Band of Brothers" and listen to the
> interviews of the original men from the 101st.
I just watched it with my little brother, who came home on leave from his
second (and final..woohoo) deployment. Had a friend of the family who was a
captain in one of those companies. I never knew anything about it until I
saw his Purple Heart license plate. Asked my mother if she knew he'd been
there and she said that when she was a kid, he was their neighbor and he'd
wake up screaming so loud that my grandfather would go over with a couple of
beers or some whiskey and help him out. When I asked about the plate he
told me he had gone to the unveiling of the World War II memorial, and that
had given him closure.
>> To be reminded of that every time the History Channel or somebody talked
>> about dropping The Bomb must have weighed heavy on >>the old warrior.
> Again, based on the radio interview mentioned above, I don't think so.
I wish I could completely believe that. I was raised by a B-17 vet. I
understand the part about fear waking them up, but, I was with him in his
last hours. It was the final moment that I realized I would never, ever
want to have carried that weight.
The 96th was sent to bomb a cathedral city on Sunday, and on that day when
the chaplain came around before the mission he refused prayer because he he
said he couldn't pray for safety when he was about to go bomb civilians in
the houses of God. Of course he knew it had to be done, but, as a debout
Catholic it ate him up. On the other hand, he wasn't fighting the Imperial
Japanese or knowingly striking the blow that could end the war. That might
have made all the difference to Tibbets and his crew.
Thanks for answering my question, though. That's good to know.
-c
Bill Watson
always answered it the same way. To his credit, I doubt whether that's
true. Perhaps best reflected in his request for no funeral or grave
marker... though it can be interpreted in several ways.
In any case, may he rest in peace knowing many will never forget.
xxx
Here's a link to it:
http://www.avweb.com/news/profiles/PaulTibbets_StudsTerkel_EnolaGayInterview_2002_196499-1.html
Morgans
"Gatt" <ga...@damnnearwiley00.com> wrote
> The 96th was sent to bomb a cathedral city on Sunday, and on that day when
> the chaplain came around before the mission he refused prayer because he
> he said he couldn't pray for safety when he was about to go bomb civilians
> in the houses of God.
That Chaplin put a heavy load on guys like your dad, just so he could feel
better about himself. That is a far greater sin than what the 96th did,
IMHO. I hope he realizes what he did, and how harmful it was, and prays for
forgiveness every day.
That story is hard to believe. It isn't that I don't believe it, but it is
really hard to swallow. I put to you, that the Chaplin was not a very good
Christian, after all. He should have been able to forgive, like the
teachings of the One he follows.
> Of course he knew it had to be done, but, as a debout Catholic it ate him
> up. On the other hand, he wasn't fighting the Imperial Japanese or
> knowingly striking the blow that could end the war. That might have made
> all the difference to Tibbets and his crew.
I believe it did. I always got the feeling he was telling the truth when
he said he slept at night. He always seemed like an up front, straight
shooting guy.
Other members of his crew, not so much, as far as not sleeping well,
perhaps. Only Tibbits really knew what the whole program was about, the
whole time. He knew what was going to happen, and how big of a deal it was.
He knew that he would be taking many lives, but saving many more. He had
reconciled it long before the bomb bay doors opened. If there were any
sleepless nights, I'm betting that during that reconciling is when he may
have had some sleepless nights.
That HAD to have made a difference. The crews only knew the whole magnitude
when they saw the size of the flash and cloud. That would be hard to
reconcile, in that short of a time, I would think.
--
Jim in NC
BT
Tibbets refused the prayer.. not that the Chaplin refused to pray for the
men.
BT
"Morgans" <jsmo...@charterJUNK.net> wrote in message
news:l1wWi.87$oS4...@newsfe02.lga...
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
> He has been recorded more than once answering that question. He's
> always answered it the same way. To his credit, I doubt whether that's
> true. Perhaps best reflected in his request for no funeral or grave
> marker... though it can be interpreted in several ways.
I wondered about that too. He is eligible for a military burial at Arlington
National Cemetery... and there ain't so such thing as a protest there. He'd be
in excellent company and he'd be safe for posterity.
--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com
C J Campbell
He asked that there be no funeral or headstone so that there would be
no place for protesters to gather. He always said that dropping the
atomic bomb was the right thing to do. He said he did not start the
war, but he was determined to finish it.
C J Campbell
>
> "M.W. Barrow" <matt_...@cox.net> wrote in message
> news:ATtWi.153$M56...@newsfe16.lga...
>
>> See above. Also, get the DVD set for "Band of Brothers" and listen to the
>> interviews of the original men from the 101st.
>
> I just watched it with my little brother, who came home on leave from his
> second (and final..woohoo) deployment. Had a friend of the family who was a
> captain in one of those companies. I never knew anything about it until I
> saw his Purple Heart license plate. Asked my mother if she knew he'd been
> there and she said that when she was a kid, he was their neighbor and he'd
> wake up screaming so loud that my grandfather would go over with a couple of
> beers or some whiskey and help him out. When I asked about the plate he
> told me he had gone to the unveiling of the World War II memorial, and that
> had given him closure.
>
>>> To be reminded of that every time the History Channel or somebody talked
>>> about dropping The Bomb must have weighed heavy on >>the old warrior.
>
>> Again, based on the radio interview mentioned above, I don't think so.
>
> I wish I could completely believe that. I was raised by a B-17 vet. I
> understand the part about fear waking them up, but, I was with him in his
> last hours. It was the final moment that I realized I would never, ever
> want to have carried that weight.
For some time he flew re-enactments in B-29s at air shows. He had
little patience for the protesters there, or for the proposed
apologetic display of the Enola Gay at the Smithsonian. He was
convinced that what he did was necessary, which I suppose is the only
way anyone could deal with a thing like that.
He was irritated by the perennial rumor that he had committed suicide.
Matt W. Barrow
"BT" <bNO...@SPAM.cox.net> wrote in message
news:18wWi.47$pr6...@newsfe06.phx...
> Read it again Morgans..
> Tibbets refused the prayer.. not that the Chaplin refused to pray for the
> men.
It wasn't Tibbets, he's speaking of a different outfit.
Jay Honeck
Mary and I had the opportunity to meet the General at OSH '04 or '05
-- I forget which one.
He had been signing autographs and talking all afternoon, and he was
visibly tired. We found him sitting incongruously on a kitchen chair
near the edge of Aeroshell Square, with a young woman acting as his
"keeper". As we approached, he looked like a lion, with a thick
shock of white hair, two hearing aids (now THAT is an old pilot's
signature, no?), and rheumy eyes that nevertheless felt like lasers
when he focused on you.
As we got closer, he looked more and more tired. My son and daughter
wanted him to sign their airshow hats in the worst way, but as we
walked up to him his "keeper" shot me a look with pleading eyes, as if
to say "Please give him a break!"
I steered the kids away, without stopping to chat.
Godspeed, General. I thank you for saving my dad's life.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
Dudley Henriques
from Japanese citizens thanking him for helping to save what would have
been millions of their lives as well the American lives saved by forcing
the surrender.
He never had trouble sleeping and always understood the role he played
in ending the war.
About his grave request; Tibbets always has understood and has had to
deal with the extreme left all through his life. He was well aware of
the ingenuity and inventiveness of some of these people. To my knowledge
he has always believed that no matter where he was buried, the location
would be a prime target for these people.
As for Arlington; interning him there would only have served to feed the
extreme left who would again have used the very location of the
internment as cannon fodder for keeping his name alive for use in the
anti-war movement.
The word I have gotten through my sources is that Tibbets simply wanted
to not be used after his death in any way the location of his remains
would have provided. He had quite enough of that in life, and simply
wanted not to be used in any ongoing controversy.
Personally, I think he did the right thing, although it's puzzling to me
why, considering his goals, he simply didn't choose cremation. It's not
too much a stretch however, to surmise that feeling the way he did about
all of it, that he chose to take even the "fire" relationship out of the
equation for the extreme left.
--
Dudley Henriques
ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
> --
> Dudley Henriques
According to
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/EnolaGayPilotPaulTibbetsDies_196498-1.html
"He asked that his ashes be spread over the English Channel, where he flew
for part of his war service."
--
Jim Pennino
Remove .spam.sux to reply.
Gatt
"Morgans" <jsmo...@charterJUNK.net> wrote in message
news:l1wWi.87$oS4...@newsfe02.lga...
>
>
>> The 96th was sent to bomb a cathedral city on Sunday, and on that day
>> when the chaplain came around before the mission he refused >>prayer
>> because he he said he couldn't pray for safety when he was about to go
>> bomb civilians in the houses of God.
>
> That Chaplin put a heavy load on guys like your dad, just so he could feel
> better about himself. That is a far greater sin than what the >96th did,
> IMHO. I hope he realizes what he did, and how harmful it was, and prays
> for forgiveness every day.
At the risk of sounding foolish, I hope I articulated that clearly; the
Chaplain offered prayer and my grandfather (and some of the others) couldn't
accept because he didn't feel right about being blessed to go bomb people
whey they were in church. As to the Chaplain, on the Schweinfurt raid he
offered last rites as the crews were departing. How's that for a morale
booster? Maybe Tibbets just had a really good chaplain.
> I believe it did. I always got the feeling he was telling the truth when
> he said he slept at night. He always seemed like an up front, >straight
> shooting guy.
Well, with nerves like that I sure wouldn't want to have gotten on his bad
side! :>
KAE
>
>According to
>http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/news/EnolaGayPilotPaulTibbetsDies_196498-1.html
>
>"He asked that his ashes be spread over the English Channel, where he flew
>for part of his war service."
They replayed an interview with him on NPR yesterday. He said he
wanted his ashes to be scattered over the North Atlantic because the
flights over the ocean were the most peaceful times he ever had.
Gatt
"xxx" <rme...@utdallas.edu> wrote in message
news:1193968758....@t8g2000prg.googlegroups.com...
> He did an interview with Studs Terkel a few years ago.
>
> Here's a link to it:
>
> http://www.avweb.com/news/profiles/PaulTibbets_StudsTerkel_EnolaGayInterview_2002_196499-1.html
What an amazing interview! Thank you for posting this.
-c
Gatt
"Jay Honeck" <jjho...@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:1194004427.3...@z9g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Godspeed, General. I thank you for saving my dad's life.
A friend of mine's wife's grandfather died a couple of years ago and they
asked him to come sort through his military stuff and determine what was
important or worth keeping.
Apparently, there's a whole bunch of maps of Japan with invasion routes
drawn on them, and various other documents. Mike called and asked me if I
thought they were important. Heh.
Maybe they were just for training, but, I said the best thing to do would be
to take them to the Evergreen Air Museum or somewhere. Not sure what they
ended up doing, but, this reminds me that I should ask.
-c
S Green
"Morgans" <jsmo...@charterJUNK.net> wrote in message
I am sure there is a place reserved for him in Hell.
Gatt
"S Green" <stevenos...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:nMadnXcJmb9p-bba...@bt.com...
>> Rest easy, brave one.
>
> I am sure there is a place reserved for him in Hell.
Arrogant, ignorant and meaningless.
Have a nice lunch:
http://www.rotten.com/library/history/war-crimes/rape-of-nanking/
http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/germwar/vivisect.gif
http://www.history.ucsb.edu/faculty/marcuse/classes/133p/133p04papers/133p04papimg/NanjingBuriedAlive400pxh.jpg
Pedophelia, torture, rape, vivisection and civilians being buried alive.
Ask the Marines at Saipan who tried to stop the women from throwing their
kids over the cliff what the probability of a Japanese surrender might have
been.
-c
C J Campbell
>
>
> Personally, I think he did the right thing, although it's puzzling to
> me why, considering his goals, he simply didn't choose cremation.
Actually, his family will have him cremated and his ashes scattered on
the English Channel.
C J Campbell
What a mean thing to say.
Jay Honeck
> drawn on them, and various other documents.
Dang. Those have to be sobering to view.
My dad was a Captain in the Signal Corps at war's end. Thanks to Paul
Tibbets and the atomic bomb, instead of being shipped off to the
Pacific Theater he stayed in Germany as an aide at the Nuremburg
Trials.
My dad has been gone since '93, but I'll bet he's shaking Paul's hand
right now, thanking him for the good life his children have been able
to lead because the war was ended when it did...
Steven P. McNicoll
I am sure you're wrong and equally sure you'll never understand why.
Jay Honeck
>
> > I am sure there is a place reserved for him in Hell.
>
> Arrogant, ignorant and meaningless.
You're wasting your breath on the likes of him...
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
Perhaps you will take his place. He's been upgraded.
Maxwell
"Gatt" <ga...@damnnearwiley00.com> wrote in message
news:13ikm3h...@corp.supernews.com...
>>> He was 92. God speed, General.
>>
>> Damn. Another fine one of the great generation gone.
>>
>> Guys like him are pretty dang tough to come by.
>
>
> Not saying what he did was wrong, but, so many men of virtue who knew they
> were fighting the good fight or who had no choice but to kill are haunted
> by their war. The pilot of my grandfather's plane never talked about it
> to his family, and the co-pilot shut down to the point where he refused to
> believe--he got angry at the suggestion--that there were ever B-17s that
> weren't olive drab when I spoke with him a few years ago. One of the
> officers later committed suicide. Very brave men who did what they had to
> do, but couldn't bear to remember.
>
> he rest in eternal peace.
>
I had heard years ago that Tibbet's bombardier had taken his own life
shortly after the war, but I have my doubts. Does anyone know for sure?
Gatt
"Maxwell" <luv2...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:5oLWi.346$jn1...@newsfe14.lga...
>
> I had heard years ago that Tibbet's bombardier had taken his own life
> shortly after the war, but I have my doubts. Does anyone know for sure?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Ferebee
"Like Tibbets, Ferebee never expressed regret for his role in the bombing,
saying, "it was a job that had to be done."
He remained in the military in the years after World War II, eventually
serving in Vietnam and retiring in the rank of He died in Windermere,
Florida home at the age of 81"
Maxwell
That's good to know Gatt, thanks.
Al G
Some people have too large a carbon footprint.
Al G
Bill Watson
the left side political and social thinking. At the same time, I
totally honor Mr Tibbets. I even think a lot of you. Do we have to
politicize EVERYTHING?
Mr Oppenheimer arguably had more to do with dropping the big one - check
out what the far right did to him... and that actually happened.
Christ! Politics! Let's fly.
Dudley Henriques
believe I have politicized something that need not have been politicized?
Anyway, I'm happy that you "even like me" whatever the "even" might
represent :-))
--
Dudley Henriques
Bill Watson
people" and "extreme". They've been used so often to negatively
characterize people of good faith and purpose. I also tend to consider
the terms "left wing" and "extreme left" to be political, don't you?
And I consider their application to the remembrance of the recently
deceased to be "politicizing".
And yes, I still 'even' respect you despite your insistence on the
casual politicization of the passing of a hero.... or your unwillingness
to recognize the weight of you words.
I think Paul Tibbets was a man who bore his duty, and the great burden
that attended it, with honor and distinction. And I know you do too.
Perhaps we can agree with that if nothing else.
Bill Watson
Durham NC
Dudley Henriques
Sorry. I can't agree with you on that. I do however respect your right
to an opinion and I won't push the issue.
Best to you
DH
--
Dudley Henriques
SockPuppet
rme...@utdallas.edu says...
> He did an interview with Studs Terkel a few years ago.
>
S Green
>
> "S Green" <stevenos...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:nMadnXcJmb9p-bba...@bt.com...
>
>>> Rest easy, brave one.
>>
>> I am sure there is a place reserved for him in Hell.
>
> Arrogant, ignorant and meaningless.
>
on the winning side
Matt Whiting
No, you have your place and his confused.
Matt
Bob Noel
"S Green" <stevenos...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> The only difference between him and your average war criminal is that he was
> on the winning side
Define "war criminal"
--
Bob Noel
(goodness, please trim replies!!!)
Gatt
>> Arrogant, ignorant and meaningless.
>>
> The only difference between him and your average war criminal is that he
> was on the winning side
My assessment of you stands. You are of course entitled to your opinion.
Thanks, mainly, to guys like Tibbets who risked their lives so that it could
be preserved for you.
Had Japan or Germany won the war you would not now have the ability to
accuse their warriors of war crimes in a public forum.
-c
akjcbkJA
have been accused of being war criminals - victors justice
Bob Noel
wrote:
> I think he was saying that if Japan or Germany had won the war they would
> have been accused of being war criminals - victors justice
In this case being accused and actually being a war criminal are two different
things.
I'll take the Allies definition of war criminal over WWII Japan's or Germany's
definition thankyouverymuch.
C J Campbell
Ah. So you think the Nazis were morally equivalent to the Allies.
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
>> Had Japan or Germany won the war you would not now have the ability to
>> accuse their warriors of war crimes in a public forum.
>>
> I think he was saying that if Japan or Germany had won the war they would
> have been accused of being war criminals - victors justice
"To the victor goes the spoils." - Andrew Jackson
If that seems unpalatable, better not lose.
ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
While there is a modicum of truth in that, the Allied nations did not
as policy commit the atrocities of the Axis powers.
--
Jim Pennino
Remove .spam.sux to reply.
Matt W. Barrow
"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
news:FIWdndrSHMwMqqza...@giganews.com...
> akjcbkJA wrote:
>>> Had Japan or Germany won the war you would not now have the ability to
>>> accuse their warriors of war crimes in a public forum.
>>>
>> I think he was saying that if Japan or Germany had won the war they would
>> have been accused of being war criminals - victors justice
>
>
> "To the victor goes the spoils." - Andrew Jackson
>
> If that seems unpalatable, better not lose.
>
C J Campbell
<mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> said:
> akjcbkJA wrote:
>>> Had Japan or Germany won the war you would not now have the ability to
>>> accuse their warriors of war crimes in a public forum.
>>>
>> I think he was saying that if Japan or Germany had won the war they would
>> have been accused of being war criminals - victors justice
>
>
> "To the victor goes the spoils." - Andrew Jackson
>
> If that seems unpalatable, better not lose.
I am stunned at the number of people here who are saying that the only
difference between the Nazis and the Allies was that the Allies won the
war.
John Godwin
news:2007110621170450073-christophercampbell@hotmailcom:
> I am stunned at the number of people here who are saying that the
> only difference between the Nazis and the Allies was that the
> Allies won the war.
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
- George Santayana (1863–1952), U.S. philosopher, poet.
--
Frank Ch. Eigler
C J Campbell <christoph...@hotmail.com> writes:
> I am stunned at the number of people here who are saying that the only
> difference between the Nazis and the Allies was that the Allies won
> the war.
I'm not. Anti-patriotism is fashionable.
- FChE
RST Engineering
administration that committed atrocities on a par with the Axis powers.
Jim
dea...@msn.com
> While there is a modicum of truth in that, the Allied nations did not
> as policy commit the atrocities of the Axis powers.
>
> --
> Jim Pennino
>
> Remove .spam.sux to reply.
Dresden?
C J Campbell
> You are correct. It took over 50 years for the USA to elect an
> administration that committed atrocities on a par with the Axis powers.
>
> Jim
Really? What atrocities would those be? The Holocaust? Concentration
camps? Extermination camps? Gas ovens? Lining up whole towns and making
people dig their own graves before being shot? Enslaving the population
of entire countries? Making lampshades of human skin? Murdering entire
populations for their dental fillings? Looting artistic treasures?
Forcing hundreds of thousands of women to work as prostitutes for the
soldiers? Deliberately murdering prisoners of war? The rape of Nanking?
The destruction of Manila? Murdering 6 million people because of their
race? Testing biological weapons on humans? Widespread use of chemical
weapons? Mass cannibalism? Using famine as a weapon of war? Forced
labor camps?
All of these are actually official administration policy? The
administration actually commits crimes on a par with these?
You seem to have a serious difficulty with judgment and scale. In fact,
you appear to be severely and clinically delusional.
C J Campbell
The frequency with which you and others fall victim to Godwin's law
when talking about the current administration reveals complete moral
and intellectual bankruptcy. You do not belong in any forum which
engages in civil discourse. Civility and truth are apparently totally
foreign concepts to you.
You owe this group an apology, the administration an apology, and our
armed forces and apology. Not that we are likely to get it. Your
outrageous, uncontrolled, self-centered, egoistic attitude, your hate,
your bottomless pit of bile, will not allow you to do that.
I have no respect at all for you, your opinions, or those who spawned
you. You are nothing but a venomous little worm.
RST Engineering
again.
Jim
Bertie the Bunyip
> On 2007-11-07 08:30:34 -0800, "RST Engineering"
> <j...@rstengineering.com> said:
>
>> You are correct. It took over 50 years for the USA to elect an
>> administration that committed atrocities on a par with the Axis
>> powers.
>>
>> Jim
>>
>>>
>>> While there is a modicum of truth in that, the Allied nations did
>>> not as policy commit the atrocities of the Axis powers.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Jim Pennino
>>>
>>> Remove .spam.sux to reply.
>
> The frequency with which you and others fall victim to Godwin's law
> when talking about the current administration reveals complete moral
> and intellectual bankruptcy.
Well, godwin's law is susppended when you're actually talking about a
tinpot little dictator.
In some future forum, it;s not hard to see Godwin's law revised to include
any mention of the current administration (and it's lost boys like
Rumsfeld)
Bertie
ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
> Dresden?
What about it?
John Godwin
news:Xns99E1DD69B6E...@207.14.116.130:
> In some future forum, it;s not hard to see Godwin's law revised to
> include any mention of the current administration (and it's lost boys
> like Rumsfeld)
I resent that. :-)
Bertie the Bunyip
news:Xns99E18E7D...@216.168.3.50:
Hey you made the rules, you'll have to live with them.
Bertie
C J Campbell
> I'm having trouble discerning whether you are off your meds or on the bottle
> again.
>
> Jim
I guess I should expect no more of you. Defamation and name-calling
appear to be the limit of your intellectual capacity.
C J Campbell
> C J Campbell <christoph...@hotmail.com> wrote in
> news:2007110711212175249-christophercampbell@hotmailcom:
>
>> On 2007-11-07 08:30:34 -0800, "RST Engineering"
>> <j...@rstengineering.com> said:
>>
>>> You are correct. It took over 50 years for the USA to elect an
>>> administration that committed atrocities on a par with the Axis
>>> powers.
>>>
>>> Jim
>>>
>>>>
>>>> While there is a modicum of truth in that, the Allied nations did
>>>> not as policy commit the atrocities of the Axis powers.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Jim Pennino
>>>>
>>>> Remove .spam.sux to reply.
>>
>> The frequency with which you and others fall victim to Godwin's law
>> when talking about the current administration reveals complete moral
>> and intellectual bankruptcy.
>
>
> Well, godwin's law is susppended when you're actually talking about a
> tinpot little dictator.
In that event, it is not suspended here.
>
>
> In some future forum, it;s not hard to see Godwin's law revised to include
> any mention of the current administration (and it's lost boys like
> Rumsfeld)
>
>
> Bertie
If that ever happens, Godwin's law would be revised to say that the
probability of someone being compared to a Nazi at the beginning of any
thread is approaching one.
Bertie the Bunyip
> On 2007-11-07 13:47:20 -0800, Bertie the Bunyip <Sn@rt.1> said:
>
>> C J Campbell <christoph...@hotmail.com> wrote in
>> news:2007110711212175249-christophercampbell@hotmailcom:
>>
>>> On 2007-11-07 08:30:34 -0800, "RST Engineering"
>>> <j...@rstengineering.com> said:
>>>
>>>> You are correct. It took over 50 years for the USA to elect an
>>>> administration that committed atrocities on a par with the Axis
>>>> powers.
>>>>
>>>> Jim
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> While there is a modicum of truth in that, the Allied nations did
>>>>> not as policy commit the atrocities of the Axis powers.
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>> Jim Pennino
>>>>>
>>>>> Remove .spam.sux to reply.
>>>
>>> The frequency with which you and others fall victim to Godwin's law
>>> when talking about the current administration reveals complete moral
>>> and intellectual bankruptcy.
>>
>>
>> Well, godwin's law is susppended when you're actually talking about a
>> tinpot little dictator.
>
> In that event, it is not suspended here.
Well, onl technically. Geroge W Bush isn't bright enough to stand still
long enough tot be a doorstop, never mind a dicatator.
>
>>
>>
>> In some future forum, it;s not hard to see Godwin's law revised to
>> include any mention of the current administration (and it's lost boys
>> like Rumsfeld)
>>
>>
>> Bertie
>
> If that ever happens, Godwin's law would be revised to say that the
> probability of someone being compared to a Nazi at the beginning of
> any thread is approaching one.
Yeh, Ok..
Bertie
Matt Whiting
> You are correct. It took over 50 years for the USA to elect an
> administration that committed atrocities on a par with the Axis powers.
Yes, but Bill has been out of office for some time now so it is time to
let it go.
Matt
Bertie the Bunyip
@news1.epix.net:
Care to get specific there?
Or are you just one of the anal retentive types that equates oral sex with
attempted genocide?
Bertie
news.verizon.net
a group that was founded Osama Bin Laden?
Let's face it, this administration does not have a corner on poor decisions,
we have that problem for a very long time.
Google is your friend.
"Bertie the Bunyip" <Sn@rt.1> wrote in message
news:Xns99E217AA4DE...@207.14.116.130...
Bertie the Bunyip
news:oRvYi.5272$lx.978@trndny05:
> How about his inaction in Rwanda and his arming the Kosovo Liberation
> Army, a group that was founded Osama Bin Laden?
>
> Let's face it, this administration does not have a corner on poor
> decisions, we have that problem for a very long time.
Well, a people get the government they deserve..
>
> Google is your friend.
No it isn't. I choose my own friends, thank you.
Bertie
>
C J Campbell
Quite honestly, I have neither time nor patience to deal with ignorant
loons who insist on spouting the vile obscenity that the US is like
Nazi Germany -- and then they insist that this is patriotism. These
people are extremely dishonest or abysmally ignorant of what Nazi
Germany was really like -- probably both. The very fact that they are
free to compare the US to Nazi Germany ought to prove them wrong. If
they had tried publicly saying that kind of stuff in Nazi Germany they
would have found out the true meaning of Himmler's "night and fog"
order.
Frankly, if declaring "Bush is a Nazi" and equating waterboarding with
flaying a man alive are all that the Democrats have to offer on
national security, they will lose the next election by a resounding
margin, and deservedly so. They will probably blame it on the public,
saying that people were not ready for a woman President or some such
tripe. It never occurs to them that name-calling is not a substitute
for policy or that treason is not a substitute for governing. They say
nothing that would have been out of character for Lord Haw Haw or Tokyo
Rose, and they act like this in time of war, giving aid and comfort to
those who would like nothing better than to kill them. FDR would never
have tolerated it.
They do not even see their own intemperance. The language they are
using was once cause for mortal duels, if not war. There are limits to
what people will tolerate, and these guys passed those limits long ago.
I see no reason to continue reading posts from people who have lost all
sense of civility. I do not have to expose myself to their obscene
assertion that the US is like Nazi Germany. It has been a long time
since they had anything worthwhile to contribute, anyway.
I started this thread to honor the memory of a man who was a genuine
hero. He did more for the good of humanity than the sum of all of his
critics will manage in their entire lives. The least I can do is invoke
Godwin's law and declare the thread closed.
Bertie the Bunyip
> On 2007-11-07 20:00:20 -0800, "news.verizon.net"
> <JTh...@FLYverizon.net> said:
>
>> How about his inaction in Rwanda and his arming the Kosovo Liberation
>> Army, a group that was founded Osama Bin Laden?
>>
>> Let's face it, this administration does not have a corner on poor
>> decisions, we have that problem for a very long time.
>>
>> Google is your friend.
>>
>> "Bertie the Bunyip" <Sn@rt.1> wrote in message
>> news:Xns99E217AA4DE...@207.14.116.130...
>>> Matt Whiting <whi...@epix.net> wrote in news:siuYi.649$2n4.23813
>>> @news1.epix.net:
>>>
>>>> RST Engineering wrote:
>>>>> You are correct. It took over 50 years for the USA to elect an
>>>>> administration that committed atrocities on a par with the Axis
>>>>> powers.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but Bill has been out of office for some time now so it is
>>>> time to let it go.
>>>
>>>
>>> Care to get specific there?
>>>
>>>
>>> Or are you just one of the anal retentive types that equates oral
>>> sex with attempted genocide?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bertie
>
> Quite honestly, I have neither time nor patience to deal with ignorant
> loons who insist on spouting the vile obscenity that the US is like
> Nazi Germany -- and then they insist that this is patriotism.
I said nothing of the sort.
I said he was an idiot and I said nothing irreverant about Paul Tibbets
nor would I.
I did say that George Bush is an idiot, and he is.
I also think that the war in Irag is a criminal one, which makes him and
his buddies criminals.
in fact, Rumsfeld had best watch where he spends his next vacation, lest
he end up in the Hague.
Bertie
Bertie the Bunyip
news:74e06469705b61a5...@dizum.com:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> From: Bertie the Bunyip <Sn@rt.1>
>
>>Or are you just one of the anal retentive types that equates oral sex
>>with attempted genocide?
>
> Well,.........Technically.............
>
Good man! I wondered as I wrote that if anyone would pick it up.
Bertie
Matt Whiting
I was as specific as was the email to which I replied.
Matt
Cubdriver
<christoph...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> You are correct. It took over 50 years for the USA to elect an
>> administration that committed atrocities on a par with the Axis powers.
Um, 50 years from 1941 was 1991, the GWH Bush administration, and 50
years from 1945 was 1995, the Clinton administration. Which one did
you have in mind?
Blue skies! -- Dan Ford
Claire Chennault and His American Volunteers, 1941-1942
new from HarperCollins www.FlyingTigersBook.com
Cubdriver
<Ne...@NOavilineSPAM.com> wrote:
>"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
>- George Santayana (1863–1952), U.S. philosopher, poet.
Actually, he was a Spanish citizen throughout his life.
(That would include a good part of the Franco era.)
Steven P. McNicoll
"Cubdriver" <usenet AT danford DOT net> wrote in message
news:tg87j39c56spcqg8k...@4ax.com...
>
> Um, 50 years from 1941 was 1991, the GWH Bush administration, and 50
> years from 1945 was 1995, the Clinton administration. Which one did
> you have in mind?
>
I believe that should be GHW Bush.
John Godwin
> Actually, he was a Spanish citizen throughout his life.
He was, what one could consider, a Classical Hispanic-American
Philosopher. He did remain a Spanish Citizen throughout his life.
--
Bertie the Bunyip
Um, no you weren't
Bertie
Bertie the Bunyip
> On Wed, 7 Nov 2007 11:21:21 -0800, C J Campbell
> <christoph...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>> You are correct. It took over 50 years for the USA to elect an
>>> administration that committed atrocities on a par with the Axis powers.
>
> Um, 50 years from 1941 was 1991, the GWH Bush administration, and 50
> years from 1945 was 1995, the Clinton administration. Which one did
> you have in mind?
>
Well, the rise of th eThird Reich puts it firmly in Reagans era, actually.
And lets not forget the cow who seemed to think it was a good idea to put
an airplane load of civilians in harm's way for a clearly military
objective.
Bertie
Matt Whiting
> Matt Whiting <whi...@epix.net> wrote in
> news:K_MYi.654$2n4....@news1.epix.net:
>
>> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>>> Matt Whiting <whi...@epix.net> wrote in news:siuYi.649$2n4.23813
>>> @news1.epix.net:
>>>
>>>> RST Engineering wrote:
>>>>> You are correct. It took over 50 years for the USA to elect an
>>>>> administration that committed atrocities on a par with the Axis
>>>>> powers.
>>>> Yes, but Bill has been out of office for some time now so it is time
>>>> to let it go.
>>>
>>> Care to get specific there?
>>>
>>>
>>> Or are you just one of the anal retentive types that equates oral sex
>>> with attempted genocide?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Bertie
>>>
>>>
>> I was as specific as was the email to which I replied.
>
>
> Um, no you weren't
>
>
> Bertie
Uh, yes I was. Actually, I was more specific.
Matt
Bertie the Bunyip
C J Campbell
<ronca...@earthlink.net> said:
Does it matter which administration it was? The United States is not
Nazi Germany and never has been. The assertion that any administration
was like the Nazis is reprehensible in the extreme.
Steven P. McNicoll
"C J Campbell" <christoph...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2007110822561916807-christophercampbell@hotmailcom...
>
> Does it matter which administration it was?
Not a different administration, just transposed initials.
>
> The United States is not Nazi Germany and never has been. The assertion
> that any administration was like the Nazis is reprehensible in the
> extreme.
>
True dat.
Matt Whiting
Naming a name is far more specific than the mythical "administration."
Matt
Bertie the Bunyip
Matt Whiting
It is for thinking people.
Bertie the Bunyip
Matt Whiting
Confirmed.
Bertie the Bunyip
AES
>>>>>>>>>>> Yes, but Bill has been out of office for some time now
I just came to a realization of a universal law of newsgroup reading
that I should have learned long ago: No newsgroup post that contains
more than four >>>> 's in any single line is worth reading.
Now if I could just find a newsreader with a filter mechanism that would
immediately auto-delete all such messages.
Ash Wyllie
http://www.opinionjournal.com/la/?id=110010857
by our own cubdriver.
-ash
Cthulhu in 2007!
Why wait for nature?
Jim Logajan
> Nice article in today's WSJ online edition
>
> http://www.opinionjournal.com/la/?id=110010857
>
> by our own cubdriver.
First paragraph is IMHO awful. First 20 words used "we" to make a false
claim that certainly doesn't speak for most Americans. Then went on to
completely overlook (i.e. "little to compare") the carnage of the American
Civil War (what's with that blind spot of a lot of writers lately anyway?)
wherein total American casualties exceeded that of WWII (keep in mind also
the relative population sizes made the Civil War even worse), among other
horrors visited on the civilan population (e.g Sherman's March).
C J Campbell
Stimson was probably right, though. It was probably worse than anything
that ever happened in the world. American casualties were relatively
light, especially among civilians, and they were less than the Civil
War. But when you start figuring in Europe and Asia, and including the
associated genocides, etc., WW II was truly horrific. For proportion of
population killed, though, I think that Frederick the Great saw entire
regions completely depopulated.
Usenet Rulez
news:HV8Zi.663$2n4....@news1.epix.net:
And Bunyips.
http://www.altavista.com/image/results?
itag=ody&q=Bertie+Bunyip&mik=photo&mik=graphic&mip=all&mis=all&miwxh=all
--
begin 644 cwp064_034.jpg.exe
utfyllnad
`
end
Usenet Rulez
For Bunyips
Bertie the Bunyip
news:8999A1DC1A79...@swnet.nu:
Of course.
>
> http://www.altavista.com/image/results?
> itag=ody&q=Bertie+Bunyip&mik=photo&mik=graphic&mip=all&mis=all&miwxh=a
ll
>
Couldn't get this link to work. I presume it's one of the ads for the
BtB show?
Bertie
>
>
>
Bertie the Bunyip
We're uneeek
Bertie
>
>
> http://www.altavista.com/image/results?
> itag=ody&q=Bertie+Bunyip&mik=photo&mik=graphic&mip=all&mis=all&miwxh=a
ll
>