Moonless Night Claims Two Senior CAP Officers
Larry Dighera
Could the lack of a moon have contributed to this tragic accident?
TOP CIVIL AIR PATROL OFFICERS KILLED
(http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/996-full.html#196556)
The FAA and NTSB are investigating how two seasoned pilots, both
senior officers in the Civil Air Patrol, flew into a mountain near
Las Vegas Thursday evening. Col. Edwin Lewis, director of
operations for CAP's western region, and Col. Dion DeCamp,
commander of the Nevada unit, died when their CAP Cessna 182 hit
8,500-ft. Mt. Polosi, about 12 miles southwest of Las Vegas.
According to the FAA preliminary report
(http://www.faa.gov/data_statistics/accident_incident/preliminary_data/events01/media/01_881CP.txt)
visibility was listed as 10 miles when the aircraft crashed about
7:15 p.m.
********************************************************************************
** Report created 11/9/2007 Record 1 **
********************************************************************************
IDENTIFICATION
Regis#: 881CP Make/Model: C182 Description: 182, Skylane
Date: 11/08/2007 Time: 0315
Event Type: Accident Highest Injury: Fatal Mid Air: N
Missing: N
Damage: Destroyed
LOCATION
City: LAS VEGAS State: NV Country: US
DESCRIPTION
AIRCRAFT CRASHED INTO A MOUNTAIN, THE TWO PERSONS ON BOARD WERE
FATALLY
INJURED, 12 MILES FROM LAS VEGAS, NV
INJURY DATA Total Fatal: 2
# Crew: 2 Fat: 2 Ser: 0 Min: 0
Unk:
# Pass: 0 Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0
Unk:
# Grnd: Fat: 0 Ser: 0 Min: 0
Unk:
WEATHER: KLAS 090245Z 10SM FEW180 BKN250 33/M01 A2995
OTHER DATA
Activity: Unknown Phase: Unknown Operation: OTHER
FAA FSDO: LAS VEGAS, NV (WP19) Entry date:
11/09/2007
---------------------------------------------------
http://www.wrh.noaa.gov/mesowest/getobext.php?wfo=lox&sid=KLAS&num=130&raw=0
08 Nov 7:56 pm 69 32 25 WSW 3 10.00 FEW180 BKN250 1012.8 29.96
27.688 OK
08 Nov 6:56 pm 73 31 21 WSW 3 10.00 FEW180 BKN250 1012.9 29.95
27.678 OK
---------------------------------------------------
http://aa.usno.navy.mil/data/docs/MoonPhase.php#y2007
2007 Phases of the Moon
Universal Time
NEW MOON FIRST QUARTER FULL MOON LAST QUARTER
d h m d h m d h m d h m
JAN. 3 13 57 JAN. 11 12 45
JAN. 19 4 01 JAN. 25 23 01 FEB. 2 5 45 FEB. 10 9 51
FEB. 17 16 14 FEB. 24 7 56 MAR. 3 23 17 MAR. 12 3 54
MAR. 19 2 43 MAR. 25 18 16 APR. 2 17 15 APR. 10 18 04
APR. 17 11 36 APR. 24 6 36 MAY 2 10 09 MAY 10 4 27
MAY 16 19 27 MAY 23 21 03 JUNE 1 1 04 JUNE 8 11 43
JUNE 15 3 13 JUNE 22 13 15 JUNE 30 13 49 JULY 7 16 54
JULY 14 12 04 JULY 22 6 29 JULY 30 0 48 AUG. 5 21 20
AUG. 12 23 03 AUG. 20 23 54 AUG. 28 10 35 SEPT. 4 2 32
SEPT. 11 12 44 SEPT. 19 16 48 SEPT. 26 19 45 OCT. 3 10 06
OCT. 11 5 01 OCT. 19 8 33 OCT. 26 4 52 NOV. 1 21 18
NOV. 9 23 03 NOV. 17 22 33 NOV. 24 14 30 DEC. 1 12 44
DEC. 9 17 40 DEC. 17 10 18 DEC. 24 1 16 DEC. 31 7 51
-----------------------------------------------
http://www.fox5vegas.com/news/14562845/detail.html
Air Patrol Officers Killed In Potosi Plane Crash
Men Brought Planes To Nellis For Air Show
POSTED: 7:38 pm PST November 10, 2007
UPDATED: 8:34 pm PST November 10, 2007
LAS VEGAS -- Civil Air Patrol officials confirm that two of their
own were killed in a plane crash into Mount Potosi, just outside
of Las Vegas.
Col. Edwin W. Lewis Jr., director of operations for CAP's Pacific
Region, and Col. Dion E. DeCamp, commander of CAP's Nevada Wing,
died Thursday evening when their CAP plane crashed into the
mountain.
Lewis had traveled to Nellis Air Force Base to drop off a CAP
airplane to be used as an airshow display. He and DeCamp were
apparently en route to Rosamond, Calif., Lewis' hometown, when the
crash occurred.
"The CAP family is deeply saddened by this tremendous loss," said
Brig. Gen. Amy S. Courter, CAP interim national commander. "There
were no finer members than Col. DeCamp and Col. Lewis. Their
illustrious volunteer service, which collectively spanned more
than seven decades, touched innumerable lives and now, in sorrow,
consoles those left behind as a testament to their dedication and
commitment to the citizens of their respective communities."
The cause of Thursday evening's crash is unknown at this time.
Officials from the National Transportation Safety Board are
currently investigating the incident.
-----------------------------------------------------
http://www.signonsandiego.com/news/nation/20071109-0800-nv-civilaircrash.html
http://www.lvrj.com/news/11142391.html
Nov. 09, 2007
Small airplane crashes on Potosi
Accident described as not survivable by LV police air unit
By BETH WALTON
REVIEW-JOURNAL
Click image for enlargement.
Two people were presumed killed Thursday night when a Civil Air
Patrol plane crashed into Mount Potosi, about 35 miles southwest
of Las Vegas, officials said.
A police air unit crew who flew over the wreckage said the crash
was not survivable.
The plane, a single-engine Cessna 172 , went off the radar at
McCarran International Airport about 7:15 p.m., said Ian Gregor,
spokesman for the Federal Aviation Administration.
It was the second small plane that disappeared from local radar
Thursday night. The same thing had happened with a single-engine
Beechcraft Bonanza at 6:37 p.m. Authorities later learned that
plane had made a successful emergency landing several miles
southeast of Jean, and its two occupants, who were headed to
Phoenix from Las Vegas, were unhurt, Gregor said.
A Las Vegas police air unit was searching the area around Mount
Potosi when the crew heard an explosion and saw a plane burning on
the mountain, Lt. Steve Herpolsheimer said.
The crash was estimated to be about 2,000 feet from the top of the
8,514-foot tall mountain, Herpolsheimer said.
Search and rescue crews tried to get to the crash site using
four-wheel-drive vehicles, he said. Rescue air units were also
sent out to the site, said Las Vegas police spokesman Bill
Cassell.
Late Thursday, police were considering pulling back and waiting
until daylight to try to reach the crash site.
Cassell said he had no idea why the Civil Air Patrol plane was
flying Thursday night. The most common mission for the Civil Air
Patrol is search and rescue.
The crew of this plane was not believed to have been searching for
the missing Beechcraft, so perhaps they were involved in a
training flight, Cassell said.
Civil Air Patrol representatives could not be reached for comment
late Thursday.
Mount Potosi is known as the site of a 1942 plane crash in which
actress Carole Lombard and 21 other people died.
Lombard, the wife of actor Clark Gable, had been returning to
California after taking part in a national war bond campaign for
World War II when the plane she was in, a twin-engine DC-3,
slammed into a cliff near the top of the mountain.
Bertie the Bunyip
news:er7jj3tcisua5sbia...@4ax.com:
>
> Could the lack of a moon have contributed to this tragic accident?
Offhand I'd say it an impact with granite. And that's always down to the
pilot not knowing where he is.
Period.
Bertie
Denny
> Larry Dighera <LDigh...@att.net> wrote innews:er7jj3tcisua5sbia...@4ax.com:
>
>
>
> > Could the lack of a moon have contributed to this tragic accident?
>
> Offhand I'd say it an impact with granite. And that's always down to the
> pilot not knowing where he is.
>
> Period.
>
> Bertie
Damn, that hadda smart!
Long ago we had a hot shot pilot on our field that liked to hot dog
it, run the length of the runway and then do a zoom up, etc... He
went on a flying trip to South America and found a Cumulus Granitis
one scud run day...
denny
Bertie the Bunyip
news:1194968561....@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com:
Sam Clemens was asked, when he applied for a job as a River boat captain,
if he knew where the various sandbars and other hazards in the missisippi
were. "nope, but I know where they ain't" said he.
Bertie
Darkwing
"Larry Dighera" <LDig...@att.net> wrote in message
news:er7jj3tcisua5sbia...@4ax.com...
>
> Could the lack of a moon have contributed to this tragic accident?
>
>
> TOP CIVIL AIR PATROL OFFICERS KILLED
> (http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/996-full.html#196556)
> The FAA and NTSB are investigating how two seasoned pilots, both
> senior officers in the Civil Air Patrol, flew into a mountain near
> Las Vegas Thursday evening. Col. Edwin Lewis, director of
> operations for CAP's western region, and Col. Dion DeCamp,
> commander of the Nevada unit, died when their CAP Cessna 182 hit
> 8,500-ft. Mt. Polosi, about 12 miles southwest of Las Vegas.
> According to the FAA preliminary report
>
>
Oh I just love reading stuff like this. Two experienced (way more than me)
pilots in the same cockpit auger it in. Makes me and my feeble skills feel
real good...pause...NOT.
----------------------------------
DW
ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
What's really sad is both of them being locals should have known
better.
The Southwestern desert area is full of peaks in the 6000 to 9000
foot range.
There are no lights, they are damn hard to see under a full moon, and
impossible to see in anything less.
There are four simple solutions to the problem:
1. Don't fly at night in the area.
2. Sophisticated terrain avoidance technology.
3. Always fly high.
4. Stay over a highway.
Numbers 1 and 4 are probably the most practical for most GA VFR pilots.
As a student, my night cross country was through the Banning Pass to
Palm Springs on a night with close to a full moon.
The fact that for a conciderable portion of the flight the only thing
I could reliably see was the traffic on the highway below me while
surrounded by mountains I could not climb over made a lasting impression.
I think that was the CFI's goal.
--
Jim Pennino
Remove .spam.sux to reply.
Marco Leon
news:m04p05-...@mail.specsol.com...
>
> What's really sad is both of them being locals should have known
> better.
I know the USAF has many Standard Operating Procedures to prevent this kind
of stuff. Does CAP follow the USAF SOPs or do they have their own?
Marco
Bertie the Bunyip
news:542dnUThIIFMd6Ta...@giganews.com:
Bwawhahwhahwhahwhahwhahhwahwhhawhhahwhahwhahwahhwahwhahhwhahwhahwhawhhahwha
hwhahwhahwhahhw!
Bertie
Peter R.
> Oh I just love reading stuff like this. Two experienced (way more than me)
> pilots in the same cockpit auger it in. Makes me and my feeble skills feel
> real good...pause...NOT.
The NTSB (US) accident reports are full of very experience pilots killing
themselves and others. I believe the lesson is often that experience
sometimes leads to complacency. With experience you need to vow to not become
complacent in any aspect of aviation.
--
Peter
NW_Pilot
"Larry Dighera" <LDig...@att.net> wrote in message
news:er7jj3tcisua5sbia...@4ax.com...
>
Darkwing
"NW_Pilot" <use...@aircraft-nospam-delivery.net> wrote in message
news:7bWdnW45TejjaKTa...@comcast.com...
> Flying mountians at night with an overcast is looking for trouble!
>
>
Would you do it with a TAWS equipped GPS?
----------------------------------
DW
JGalban via AviationKB.com
>
>Would you do it with a TAWS equipped GPS?
>
Would you trust your life to a TAWS equipped GPS?
Instrument rules will keep you away from things that go bump in the night.
When flying VFR at night in the mountains, you have to know exactly where you
are and exactly where the granite is (at least until you've climbed high
enough).
On the occasions that I do fly night VFR in the mountains, I only do so
when I can get high enough to clear all terrain, or fly the whole route over
a highway. On climb out and descent, I stay over visible highways.
I know some pilots that are using the terrain features of their Garmin
396/496 to keep them clear of mountains at night. I think they're nuts.
John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200711/1
Peter R.
> I know some pilots that are using the terrain features of their Garmin
> 396/496 to keep them clear of mountains at night.
And also the terrain database of the GNS430W/530W units, too, I would
imagine.
--
Peter
Bertie the Bunyip
O64yaYaTanZ2...@giganews.com:
>
> "NW_Pilot" <use...@aircraft-nospam-delivery.net> wrote in message
> news:7bWdnW45TejjaKTa...@comcast.com...
>> Flying mountians at night with an overcast is looking for trouble!
>>
>>
>
> Would you do it with a TAWS equipped GPS?
>
I do it all the time and haven;'t hit anything yet, AFAIK
Bertie
dea...@msn.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
And he was hired on the spot!
Watson
false ELT. I was a Mountain Mission Pilot with CAP for some 20 odd years.
I and my squadron were punished for the refusal. "I order you to fly this
search!" No, thank you. Be happy to launch at first light.
No longer with them.
Watson
"Bertie the Bunyip" <Sn@rt.1> wrote in message
news:Xns99E7E15822C...@207.14.116.130...
Bertie the Bunyip
news:1194992276.3...@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com:
Yep.
That's the trick to just about any kind of flying. A lot of people focus
on the "right way to do it". Well, the fact is there is no real right
way to do anything. There are some things that are just wrong, but the
only constant truth I've seen about flying any airplane is that you are
going to fuck up something during every flight. Mostly, you;re fucking
up quite a few things at any given moment during every flight. If it;'s
not you fucking something up, it's your crew, ATC, the manufacturer of
the airplane or whoever. Mostly it's yourself and your job, should you
wish to make it to the end of your career n the air, is to spot them and
/or operate in such a way as to keep the fuckups from killing you.
The one common thread between almost all CFIT accidents has been, at
some point close to the event if not right up to it, the crew were sure
they knew where they were. If they had questioned that notion regularly
well..
Oh damn, now I've gone and answered Matt Whitefishfaced question as well
and given him somethng to beat me with.
My life will surely be a misery now.
Bertie
>
Bertie the Bunyip
news:B9Kdnf2YmbLovqfa...@bresnan.com:
> I refused a visual mountain search at night for a found out later to
> be a false ELT. I was a Mountain Mission Pilot with CAP for some 20
> odd years. I and my squadron were punished for the refusal. "I order
> you to fly this search!" No, thank you. Be happy to launch at first
> light.
>
> No longer with them.
>
Well, I've known quite a few of them over the years. Some really good guys
in the CAP, but about 95% are complete and utter assholes.
Bertie
Gatt
"Bertie the Bunyip" <Sn@rt.1> wrote in message
news:Xns99E7E15822C...@207.14.116.130...
>> Would you do it with a TAWS equipped GPS?
>>
>
> I do it all the time and haven;'t hit anything yet, AFAIK
LOL! The "AFAIK" must make your insurance guy a little jumpy.
-c
Peter Clark
wrote:
And considering the N-number was a 2007 T182T they were in a G1000
with moving map and minimally can display "terrain" screens on the 12"
moving map MFD.
Bertie the Bunyip
@corp.supernews.com:
Well, I have to be open to the possibility that I hit one and am now in the
afterlife.
Bertie
Bertie the Bunyip
news:p1bkj31pqd0mpqkh7...@4ax.com:
If you're relying on one of those things you can't have a goo situational
awareness thing going on where it counts.
in your head.
the guys who hit the hills in Cali had a moving map....
Bertie
Kloudy via AviationKB.com
>
>Well, I have to be open to the possibility that I hit one and am now in the
>afterlife.
>
>Bertie
Sorry. Afterlife ain't like this.
Its kinda like Cleveland in March.
And its got no internet.
The gods favor messages on post-its.
Bertie the Bunyip
news:7b2c871147406@uwe:
> Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
>>
>>Well, I have to be open to the possibility that I hit one and am now
>>in the afterlife.
>>
>>Bertie
>
> Sorry. Afterlife ain't like this.
>
> Its kinda like Cleveland in March.
>
> And its got no internet.
>
> The gods favor messages on post-its.
MM, thanks for the clarification.
I's a bit like a Holiday inn as opposed to a Marriot, then.
Bertie
JGalban via AviationKB.com
>
>And also the terrain database of the GNS430W/530W units, too, I would
>imagine.
>
I might trust one of those a bit more than the handheld versions. At
least they have RAIM.
Veeduber
>
> There are four simple solutions to the problem:
>
> 1. Don't fly at night in the area.
>
> 2. Sophisticated terrain avoidance technology.
>
> 3. Always fly high.
>
> 4. Stay over a highway.
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A lot of us don't have an option (although we always have a choice).
An' besides, it's a lot smoother in the dark :-)
Night (or at least, pre-dawn) may be the only time we can get the bird
off the ground.
The technology in a lot of old planes is limited to compass, ASI and
altimeter.
With only forty horses under the cowl, flying 'high' is a relative
sort of thing.
But you get my vote for #4. Even I-10 is necklace of lights, even
late at night & middle of the week.
-R.S.Hoover
BT
They were both very high time instrument rated pilots.
They were both experienced with mountain flying.
They were flying with the G1000 system that highlights terrain.
There was a "report" to ATC that they had a fuel problem.. that has yet to
be confirmed.
B
"Larry Dighera" <LDig...@att.net> wrote in message
news:er7jj3tcisua5sbia...@4ax.com...
>
> Could the lack of a moon have contributed to this tragic accident?
>
>
webs...@cox.net
> I refused a visual mountain search at night for a found out later to be a
> false ELT. I was a Mountain Mission Pilot with CAP for some 20 odd years.
> I and my squadron were punished for the refusal. "I order you to fly this
> search!" No, thank you. Be happy to launch at first light.
>
> No longer with them.
Since you were with CAP for 20 years, you are aware (and others might
not be) that all members are volunteers, and each and every mission is
a volunteer mission that can be refused because it is unsafe, or you
are tired, or your dog is sick.
While there are "politics" in the CAP wings, there is no way anyone
should have been punished, by any definition. If the situation is as
you described, someone should have run this all the way to National.
Sorry we lost you.
webs...@cox.net
> <j...@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message
The CAP has quite a few SOPs. I've never been an AF pilot so I
wouldn't know much about the differences. Of course, at least one
difference would be that the CAP doesn't get to shoot things down....
There is an incredible amount of pre-flight planning and paperwork
that is required for any CAP flight.
Obviously, something went quite wrong. I could come up with a couple
guesses, but I prefer not to outwardly speculate until some of the
investigation is complete.
While there are a few smartalec comments in the thread, there is one
inescapable fact: A couple of pilots who, by their position and air
time, had spent much time and money in volunteer service, have been
lost. I offer condolences to their families, friends, and squadrons.
Tom C
"Marco Leon" <mml...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:542dnUThIIFMd6Ta...@giganews.com...
CAP 60-1.
Tom C
F. Baum
>
> I know some pilots that are using the terrain features of their Garmin
> 396/496 to keep them clear of mountains at night. I think they're nuts.
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
John,
Good call on your terain avoidance tactics. As for your GPS comments,
the next time you fly on an airliner go tell the crew they are nuts.
The use of MAP mode is actually required in mountanous terain.
benf...@aol.com
And the taxpayers lost a pretty expensive new plane in the process.
Between this one and the two crashes in Wyoming the CAP is painting a
dismal picture of safety. Godspeed to the lost pilots....
Watson
<webs...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:1195008239....@s15g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 13, 3:21 pm, "Watson" <watso...@nospambresnan.net> wrote:
>> I refused a visual mountain search at night for a found out later to be a
>> false ELT. I was a Mountain Mission Pilot with CAP for some 20 odd
>> years.
>> I and my squadron were punished for the refusal. "I order you to fly
>> this
>> search!" No, thank you. Be happy to launch at first light.
>>
>> No longer with them.
>
>
> Since you were with CAP for 20 years, you are aware (and others might
> not be) that all members are volunteers, and each and every mission is
> a volunteer mission that can be refused because it is unsafe, or you
> are tired, or your dog is sick.
I understand that, too bad it did not work as advertised in the real world.
We would be pressured many times to take a questionable sortie in marginal
weather in the mountains or at night. If you refused or were reluctant they
would say things like: "Maybe you need more training?" or "If your skills
are not adequate to handle this situation, then your certification in this
area may not be appropriate." That kind of "subtle" pressure gets people
killed.
All the hours in the logbook and all the experience in the world will not
make that mountain any softer. Shaking your logbook at death never works.
> While there are "politics" in the CAP wings, there is no way anyone
> should have been punished, by any definition. If the situation is as
> you described, someone should have run this all the way to National.
>
> Sorry we lost you.
I'm not.
The "politics" in that wing are out of control. I was a Chief Check Pilot
for a group.
I saw numerous violations of their SOP reg (60-1). If the offender was a
favored son, then everything was swept under the rug. The wing vice pobah
took an airplane at an USAF evaluated SAR exercise with absolutely no
paperwork. The mad scramble was on behind the scenes trying to cover his
tracks with made up forms and to keep the AF in the dark.
An owner/member with a helicopter would got away with violating many regs
because the wing thought it was neat to have a helo at their disposal and
the wing commander was an employee in the helo owner's business.
I took my own airplane to a SAR at Wing CAP's request, when I refused to
hand over the keys of my airplane to the Mission Coordinator I was asked -
"ordered" to leave. When I got the engine started he changed his mind.
My former squadron was nearly decimated by a money grab in which locally
donated money was required to be sent to wing hq on the other side of the
state. That did not sit too well with our local benefactors who expected
their donated money to benefit their community. The wing commander wanted a
new HQ building and couldn't stand to see principal earning interest over
which he had no control.
These are some of the many horror stories. I can't beleive they have pulled
the wool over their funding agencies eyes; the state legislatures and US
Congress, for so long.
These are just the highlights. Film at eleven.
But I'm not bitter, not much.
Watson
Bertie the Bunyip
Like I said, assholes.
Most of them are little tinpot power freaks who are too crazy to get
clearance to be security gaurds at pillsbury bakeoff.
Bertie
Larry Dighera
in <57t_i.8327$zN3....@newsfe14.phx>:
>What would the moon or lack of it have to do with this.
I'm thinking the new moon would make the terrain difficult to see.
>They were both very high time instrument rated pilots.
>They were both experienced with mountain flying.
>They were flying with the G1000 system that highlights terrain.
That's what makes the cause of the mishap so baffling.
>There was a "report" to ATC that they had a fuel problem.. that has yet to
>be confirmed.
>
Are you able to cite a source for that information? This is the first
I've heard of it.
Ron Lee
>
>Oh I just love reading stuff like this. Two experienced (way more than me)
>pilots in the same cockpit auger it in. Makes me and my feeble skills feel
>real good...pause...NOT.
Why worry? Two experienced pilots does not mean that they have common
sense. I don't fly in the mountains at night...moon or no moon.
Most likely the final report will indicate that they screwed up.
Ron Lee
Ron Lee
>news:7bWdnW45TejjaKTa...@comcast.com...
>> Flying mountians at night with an overcast is looking for trouble!
>>
No.
Ron Lee
ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
> On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:32:32 -0800, "BT" <bNO...@SPAM.cox.net> wrote
> in <57t_i.8327$zN3....@newsfe14.phx>:
> >What would the moon or lack of it have to do with this.
> I'm thinking the new moon would make the terrain difficult to see.
I take it you've never flown in the southwestern desert areas.
Under a full moon the terrain is difficult to see.
Under much less than a full moon the terrain is impossible to see.
I Follow Roads is the only visual reference you have.
--
Jim Pennino
Remove .spam.sux to reply.
Marco Leon
news:7b2cb0da861fe@uwe...
> Peter R. wrote:
>>
>>And also the terrain database of the GNS430W/530W units, too, I would
>>imagine.
>>
> I might trust one of those a bit more than the handheld versions. At
> least they have RAIM.
The handhelds do put a very large X over the screen when there is not enough
data. I personally think the handhelds are pretty conservative in their
depiction parameters. If you never let any yellow areas show up, you've
given yourself at least a 1,000-foot cushion.
That said, I almost always fly under IFR at night unless I'm doing practice
approaches.
Marco
JGalban via AviationKB.com
>
>John,
>Good call on your terain avoidance tactics. As for your GPS comments,
>the next time you fly on an airliner go tell the crew they are nuts.
>The use of MAP mode is actually required in mountanous terain.
Aren't airliners flying IFR? Terrain avoidance is built in to instrument
procedures (assuming you follow the rules). I've also never seen a 396/496
handheld in an airliner cockpit.
As someone else posted, the handhelds can give an indication when
satellites become unavailable, but I don't think they are quite at the level
of RAIM integrity in the IFR approved units. I've seen a 396 just freeze on
position, with no error indication. Don't get me wrong, they are good.
Just not up to the level that I'd be willing to trust my hide to one.
Larry Dighera
<k1or05-...@mail.specsol.com>:
>Larry Dighera <LDig...@att.net> wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:32:32 -0800, "BT" <bNO...@SPAM.cox.net> wrote
>> in <57t_i.8327$zN3....@newsfe14.phx>:
>
>> >What would the moon or lack of it have to do with this.
>
>> I'm thinking the new moon would make the terrain difficult to see.
>
>I take it you've never flown in the southwestern desert areas.
>
Pilots who reside on the west coast who don't fly over the desert have
precious little else to fly over, given that the Pacific covers the
western half of the area, and the Mojave desert surrounds the
populated areas to the east. So, of course I've flown over
unpopulated areas at night. With a full moon on a clear night, I find
it easy to see the terrain. It's actually quite a lovely sight.
With a new moon over the deserted desert, you're effectively on
instruments, or you should be.
>Under a full moon the terrain is difficult to see.
>
Our opinions differ.
>Under much less than a full moon the terrain is impossible to see.
>
Effectively, yes. That's why I thought the new moon may have
contributed to this mishap.
>I Follow Roads is the only visual reference you have.
Of course, that only works if there is traffic with headlights lit on
the desert road, and it's still no substitute for _through_ flight
planning before departure, and radar advisories en route. Those pesky
F-16s are impossible to see-and-avoid at night.
ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
> On Wed, 14 Nov 2007 17:35:02 GMT, ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote in
> <k1or05-...@mail.specsol.com>:
> >Larry Dighera <LDig...@att.net> wrote:
> >> On Tue, 13 Nov 2007 18:32:32 -0800, "BT" <bNO...@SPAM.cox.net> wrote
> >> in <57t_i.8327$zN3....@newsfe14.phx>:
> >
> >> >What would the moon or lack of it have to do with this.
> >
> >> I'm thinking the new moon would make the terrain difficult to see.
> >
> >I take it you've never flown in the southwestern desert areas.
> >
> Pilots who reside on the west coast who don't fly over the desert have
> precious little else to fly over, given that the Pacific covers the
> western half of the area, and the Mojave desert surrounds the
> populated areas to the east. So, of course I've flown over
> unpopulated areas at night. With a full moon on a clear night, I find
> it easy to see the terrain. It's actually quite a lovely sight.
> With a new moon over the deserted desert, you're effectively on
> instruments, or you should be.
> >Under a full moon the terrain is difficult to see.
> >
> Our opinions differ.
With a full moon on a clear night and a clean, clear windscreen, I
agree you can see the desert terrain.
With anything less, such as a cloudy, old windscreen as found on most
rentals, good luck.
> >Under much less than a full moon the terrain is impossible to see.
> >
> Effectively, yes. That's why I thought the new moon may have
> contributed to this mishap.
> >I Follow Roads is the only visual reference you have.
> Of course, that only works if there is traffic with headlights lit on
> the desert road, and it's still no substitute for _through_ flight
> planning before departure, and radar advisories en route. Those pesky
> F-16s are impossible to see-and-avoid at night.
I agree with the planning part, but there is lots of desert area where
you can't get radar or comm unless you are really high, in which case
you don't really need to worry much about peaks.
Unless you have an airplane that climbs really well, you will lose
communications with Las Vegas app/dep climbing out from Henderson
for a while because of the hills around Vegas for example.
And it seems that (departure and approach) is when most of these
accidents occur; not at a good cruise altitude and can't see much.
BTW, there is always traffic on the freeways 24/7/365.
B A R R Y
<mmleon.n....@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>That said, I almost always fly under IFR at night
Same here...
webs...@cox.net
> <websu...@cox.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1195008239....@s15g2000prm.googlegroups.com...
>
> > On Nov 13, 3:21 pm, "Watson" <watso...@nospambresnan.net> wrote:
> >> I refused a visual mountain search at night for a found out later to be a
> >> false ELT. I was a Mountain Mission Pilot with CAP for some 20 odd
> >> years.
> >> I and my squadron were punished for the refusal. "I order you to fly
> >> this
> >> search!" No, thank you. Be happy to launch at first light.
>
> >> No longer with them.
>
> > Since you were with CAP for 20 years, you are aware (and others might
> > not be) that all members are volunteers, and each and every mission is
> > a volunteer mission that can be refused because it is unsafe, or you
> > are tired, or your dog is sick.
>
> I understand that, too bad it did not work as advertised in the real world.
It *usually* does, but not always. Clearly, in your case, it did
not.
> > Sorry we lost you.
>
> I'm not.
I'm not surprised. It's still too bad that some folks are screwing
things up that bad somewhere. I'm still sorry we lost you.
>snip of some bad happenings<
> These are some of the many horror stories. I can't beleive they have pulled
> the wool over their funding agencies eyes; the state legislatures and US
> Congress, for so long.
Crap happens. I've heard of some in my local wing. Most of us work
what we can against it, and hang around to do the job. Actually, the
negative things in CAP aren't much different than the negative things
in most other organizations I've been in or observed. "They" isn't
everyone; and most are volunteering their time and resources even
though things aren't perfect. That's why they still have the support
of the states and Congress.
Bertie the Bunyip
news:0f8d0846-1c91-4bd1...@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
>
> Crap happens. I've heard of some in my local wing. Most of us work
> what we can against it, and hang around to do the job. Actually, the
> negative things in CAP aren't much different than the negative things
> in most other organizations I've been in or observed. "They" isn't
> everyone; and most are volunteering their time and resources even
> though things aren't perfect.
That's true, but the percentage is much higher..
I was being harangued into joining a chapter years ago because I had a lot
of big tailwheel time and they had a very beat up Otter they wanted to fly.
Most of them were OK and at least they actually were attempting aviation,
but they still had so much crap going on anyone in their right mind would
run a mile.
Then they got an AT-11 that "needed a bit of work" I wanted a personal
notam if the thing ever got flying (fortunatley it didn't) so's I could
rapidly get out of its operational range in case it fell on me.
Bertie
webs...@cox.net
First, from you a couple days ago:
>Most of them are little tinpot power freaks who are too crazy to get
>clearance to be security gaurds at pillsbury bakeoff.
Now,
>Most of them were OK...
So, basically, you left because you didn't like their airplane and now
they are all bad guys.
Wrong.
There are some power freaks and politicos, like everywhere. Most are
guys like me. We volunteer to go looking for people and stuff when
needed, pay for the training to do so, and put in lots of time. Many
of the services are other than SAR. When you carelessly paint with a
broad brush, you do a disservice to an awful lot of good people.
Maybe they don't miss you. You call people names way too often to be
good company.
Bertie the Bunyip
news:7748bbd6-8776-47bf...@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
> On Nov 14, 7:48 pm, Bertie the Bunyip <S...@rt.1> wrote:
>> websu...@cox.net wrote
>> innews:0f8d0846-1c91-4bd1-bacc-
b7a0dc...@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.c
>> om:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Crap happens. I've heard of some in my local wing. Most of us
>> > work what we can against it, and hang around to do the job.
>> > Actually, the negative things in CAP aren't much different than the
>> > negative things in most other organizations I've been in or
>> > observed. "They" isn't everyone; and most are volunteering their
>> > time and resources even though things aren't perfect.
>>
>> That's true, but the percentage is much higher..
>>
>> I was being harangued into joining a chapter years ago because I had
>> a lot of big tailwheel time and they had a very beat up Otter they
>> wanted to fly. Most of them were OK and at least they actually were
>> attempting aviation, but they still had so much crap going on anyone
>> in their right mind would run a mile.
>> Then they got an AT-11 that "needed a bit of work" I wanted a
>> personal notam if the thing ever got flying (fortunatley it didn't)
>> so's I could rapidly get out of its operational range in case it fell
>> on me.
>>
>> Bertie
>
> First, from you a couple days ago:
>>Most of them are little tinpot power freaks who are too crazy to get
>>clearance to be security gaurds at pillsbury bakeoff.
> Now,
>>Most of them were OK...
>
> So, basically, you left because you didn't like their airplane and now
> they are all bad guys.
Nope.
> Wrong.
>
> There are some power freaks and politicos, like everywhere.
Yep, but not a few.
Most are
> guys like me.
Not in any squadron I've come across.
We volunteer to go looking for people and stuff when
> needed, pay for the training to do so, and put in lots of time. Many
> of the services are other than SAR. When you carelessly paint with a
> broad brush, you do a disservice to an awful lot of good people.
Nope, the good ones are great. Just not many of them.
>
> Maybe they don't miss you.
Dunno.
You call people names way too often to be
> good company.
Mebbe, besides the point, though.
Bertie
Bertie the Bunyip
> On Nov 14, 7:48 pm, Bertie the Bunyip <S...@rt.1> wrote:
>> websu...@cox.net wrote
>> innews:0f8d0846-1c91-4bd1-bacc-
b7a0dc...@d21g2000prf.googlegroups.c
>> om:
>>
>>
>>
>> > Crap happens. I've heard of some in my local wing. Most of us
>> > work what we can against it, and hang around to do the job.
>> > Actually, the negative things in CAP aren't much different than the
>> > negative things in most other organizations I've been in or
>> > observed. "They" isn't everyone; and most are volunteering their
>> > time and resources even though things aren't perfect.
>>
>> That's true, but the percentage is much higher..
>>
>> I was being harangued into joining a chapter years ago because I had
>> a lot of big tailwheel time and they had a very beat up Otter they
>> wanted to fly. Most of them were OK and at least they actually were
>> attempting aviation, but they still had so much crap going on anyone
>> in their right mind would run a mile.
>> Then they got an AT-11 that "needed a bit of work" I wanted a
>> personal notam if the thing ever got flying (fortunatley it didn't)
>> so's I could rapidly get out of its operational range in case it fell
>> on me.
>>
>> Bertie
>
> First, from you a couple days ago:
>>Most of them are little tinpot power freaks who are too crazy to get
>>clearance to be security gaurds at pillsbury bakeoff.
> Now,
>>Most of them were OK...
>
> So, basically, you left because you didn't like their airplane and now
> they are all bad guys.
Oh, and BTW, I didn't dislike either of those airplanes.
You missed the point.
Bertie
benf...@aol.com
> websu...@cox.net wrote innews:7748bbd6-8776-47bf...@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.com:
>
> > On Nov 14, 7:48 pm, Bertie the Bunyip <S...@rt.1> wrote:
> >> websu...@cox.net wrote
> >> innews:0f8d0846-1c91-4bd1-bacc-
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
Once again I am with Bertie on this topic. I don't know who
websu...@cox.net is but I would love for you to research the Wyoming
wing, look at all the deaths, pay close attention to the structuring
of the organization, count two destroyed panes and four body bags in
the last couple of years and come back and argue to Bertie and me
about how functional the CAP really is. Granted there are a few good
guys in it, The local CAP top dog here in Jackson, whose name is Bill
is a good friend and a great pilot. I would not hesitate to fall
asleep while he is flying. The rest are scary at best and deadly at
worst. When I joined a few years back I read the criteria for what
their members needed to conform to. One was weight/height,,, or
overall decent health. The wing commander was overweight to the point
of being a poster child for a heart attack.. I went to a SAREX to
qualify for the spotter, scanner and position myself for a mission
pilot spot and 75% of the members needed Jenny Craig on their speed
dial... They seemed to want to belittle me to prevent me from getting
to the front seats, ie, scanner/ mission pilot and relinquish me to
the rear of the plane. This tactic was to keep from sharing their
plane with an outsider. That was my last dealing with those idiots. If
you are truly a dedicated CAP member who wants to help and doesn't
play those games then I take my hat off to ya and wish you well. Your
move.........................
Bertie the Bunyip
news:e7f1286b-5b56-41d6...@w28g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
> On Nov 15, 8:55 pm, Bertie the Bunyip <S...@rt.1> wrote:
>> websu...@cox.net wrote
>> innews:7748bbd6-8776-47bf-956a-
141cf6...@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.c
>> om:
I'm sorry, but I can't be having Germans agreeing with me like this. I
spend time in Germany and every waking minute is spent in argument with
them. "wo ist der hofbanhauf?" turns into a ten minute Wagnerian opera.
"Ein anderes beir, Bitte" turns Gert Frobe behind the bar into a raging
bul. (it was a single brand establishment und mein Deutsch is sheisse)
And don't even get me started on the Bavarians...
Oh, and websu..@cox.net was a sockpuppet, I meet a lot of those.
Bertie (fair and balanced)
Bertie the Bunyip
news:e7f1286b-5b56-41d6...@w28g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
> On Nov 15, 8:55 pm, Bertie the Bunyip <S...@rt.1> wrote:
>> websu...@cox.net wrote
>> innews:7748bbd6-8776-47bf-956a-
141cf6...@d27g2000prf.googlegroups.c
>> om:
Oops, sorry, I thought it was Thomas agreeing with me. I'm unaccustomed
to having people agree with me and my bearings were thrown..
OTOH, if you provide enough details I may be able to find something to
insult you about which should make the Silly Ass Patrol guy feel better.
I really wish the CAP was what it was supposed to be, and for a lot of
people it is, I suppose. More power to them 'cuz it's a great idea.
It would be a great thing if it was waht it was supposed to be, but
even then it prolly still wouldn't be for me. I dislike being told what
to do at the best of times (though obviously I do when I understand the
whys or I'd be ATC's worst nighmare) and if some jumped up little
fjukkwit on a power trip starts giving me shit, well, he's not going to
have a bunyip buddy, let us say..
I belonged for a brief period as a young fella. I made five stripes
quick, too, but their asinine attitude towards flying, life and
everyhting left a lot to be desired and I never looked back after
leaving. Did like the SAR ground training, though.
The guy who got me into it left even quicker and went on to the navy via
college after leaving high school. He washed out of Pensacola due to
medical probs, though.
He found ROTC to be a similar mess, but the actual Navy to be much to
his liking.
He's an Admiral now (as my mother seems to enjoy pointing out) and still
laughs at the "toy soldiers", as he calls them.
BTW, usenet should be glad he's not here.
Even I cringe at his acid sense of humor.
Bertie
Marco Leon
news:t8bs05-...@mail.specsol.com...
>
> I agree with the planning part, but there is lots of desert area where
> you can't get radar or comm unless you are really high, in which case
> you don't really need to worry much about peaks.
>
> Unless you have an airplane that climbs really well, you will lose
> communications with Las Vegas app/dep climbing out from Henderson
> for a while because of the hills around Vegas for example.
>
> And it seems that (departure and approach) is when most of these
> accidents occur; not at a good cruise altitude and can't see much.
>
> BTW, there is always traffic on the freeways 24/7/365.
As someone mentioned, doesn't the G1000 have terrain built-in? Also, aren't
there TAWS-like audible warnings with a window-popup?
If I was a Garmin employee, I'd take a hard look at this. Anything is
possible but I find it hard to believe two highly-experienced aviators would
be able to ignore multiple alarms like that.
Marco
ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com
Most of the desert peaks are pretty steep.
One wonders how long it takes to recognize the alarms, analyze what
the alarms are for, decide on an action, then take the action if you
are not actively paying attention to the TAWS information.
My pulled from my butt guess is that if you were busy looking for
traffic in a class B area or doing whatevever, by the time you
figured it out it would be too late.
With two experienced pilots on board and no system failures, this
should have been a no-brainer.
One guy flies the airplane and the other guy make sure they aren't
going somewhere they shouldn't be going, like into a peak.
JGalban via AviationKB.com
>John, first, I didnt realize you flew for the airlines sorry. Second,
>for everyone elses benefit, I was refering to the terain database on
>the ND, I am sorry for the confusion. To clarify further, the type of
>flight plan does not dictate the use of the MAP mode, it is the terain
>you are flying over that does. Hey I dont make the rules {G}.
Just to clarify, I don't fly for the airlines, though several of my friends
do. The original comment that you responded to was :
> I know some pilots that are using the terrain features of their Garmin
> 396/496 to keep them clear of mountains at night. I think they're nuts
Those are the pilots whom I still think are nuts. You were the one that
mentioned airliners.
John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
--
Message posted via http://www.aviationkb.com
Peter Clark
<mmleon.n....@gmail.com> wrote:
><ji...@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message
>news:t8bs05-...@mail.specsol.com...
>>
>> I agree with the planning part, but there is lots of desert area where
>> you can't get radar or comm unless you are really high, in which case
>> you don't really need to worry much about peaks.
>>
>> Unless you have an airplane that climbs really well, you will lose
>> communications with Las Vegas app/dep climbing out from Henderson
>> for a while because of the hills around Vegas for example.
>>
>> And it seems that (departure and approach) is when most of these
>> accidents occur; not at a good cruise altitude and can't see much.
>>
>> BTW, there is always traffic on the freeways 24/7/365.
>
>As someone mentioned, doesn't the G1000 have terrain built-in? Also, aren't
>there TAWS-like audible warnings with a window-popup?
Terrain is builtin, TAWS is a ~$7500 addon card which I don't think
the CAP opts to pay.
>If I was a Garmin employee, I'd take a hard look at this. Anything is
>possible but I find it hard to believe two highly-experienced aviators would
>be able to ignore multiple alarms like that.
I doubt they had TAWS and no, there's no audible alarms from the
terrain functions.
Ron Lee
>the CAP opts to pay.
>
>>If I was a Garmin employee, I'd take a hard look at this. Anything is
>>possible but I find it hard to believe two highly-experienced aviators would
>>be able to ignore multiple alarms like that.
>
>I doubt they had TAWS and no, there's no audible alarms from the
>terrain functions.
The terrain alerting function on the Garmin GNS 430W is hard to miss.
Considering of of my flights in the Colorado Rockies it can actually
be very annoying.
Ron Lee
Peter Clark
wrote:
We're not talking about the 430, we're talking about the G1000.
benf...@aol.com
<Inval...@NotIn.YourLifetime.com.hatespam> wrote:
> On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 01:56:56 GMT, ronleenos...@pcisys.net (Ron Lee)
What we are really talking about is safely flying a plane without
killing yourself and others and destroying said plane. Having extra
bells and whistles to warn of terrain is great but the first order of
business is to be able to not hit anything hard. The CAP is gaining a
reputation of getting this ALL wrong.
Larry Dighera
<benf...@aol.com> wrote in
<4c051497-c423-472d...@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>:
>The CAP is gaining a reputation of getting this ALL wrong.
Ah come on. Look at the superb job the CAP did in locating the
remains of downed flyer Steve Fossett. :-(
Bertie the Bunyip
news:4c051497-c423-472d...@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
Exactly. when the bells and whistles become the first line of defense
instead of the last, as seems to be the way things are going in aviation,
you cease to be a pilot and become a systems operator.
Or a statistic.
Bertie
Ron Lee
>>The terrain alerting function on the Garmin GNS 430W is hard to miss.
>>Considering of of my flights in the Colorado Rockies it can actually
>>be very annoying.
>
>We're not talking about the 430, we're talking about the G1000.
I was providing a data point for others. Ignore it if it is of no
value to you.
Ron Lee
Darkwing
"Larry Dighera" <LDig...@att.net> wrote in message
news:9jvtj3d54ef08a8fi...@4ax.com...
Yeah what is up with that?? I can't believe the wreckage hasn't been found
unless he went down in a lake or something. Pretty amazing. Where is Robert
Stack when you need him? This is Unsolved Mysteries material.
-----------------------------
DW
benf...@aol.com
> "Larry Dighera" <LDigh...@att.net> wrote in message
>
> news:9jvtj3d54ef08a8fi...@4ax.com...
>
> > On Sat, 17 Nov 2007 06:29:52 -0800 (PST), "benfo...@aol.com"
> > <benfo...@aol.com> wrote in
> > <4c051497-c423-472d-a883-3bfa3e77b...@y5g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>:
>
> >>The CAP is gaining a reputation of getting this ALL wrong.
>
> > Ah come on. Look at the superb job the CAP did in locating the
> > remains of downed flyer Steve Fossett. :-(
>
> Yeah what is up with that?? I can't believe the wreckage hasn't been found
> unless he went down in a lake or something. Pretty amazing. Where is Robert
> Stack when you need him? This is Unsolved Mysteries material.
>
> -----------------------------
> DW
What really amazes me is in this country of " All people are created
equal" Steve Fossett gets C-130's with night vision stuff, satellites
orbiting for his benefit and god only knows what else they threw into
the mix, Kennedy's plane goes into the drink and the guvmint sends out
subs, satellites, boats, planes, yada, yada, yada. If , god forbid I
go down, I want the exact same search resources used to look for me.
After all I am a tax paying American citizan too.
...... Like thats really gonna happen . ;<(((
Ben
Rich Ahrens
> "Gatt" <ga...@damnnearwiley00.com> wrote in news:13jkb2tb9c2q155
> @corp.supernews.com:
>
>> "Bertie the Bunyip" <Sn@rt.1> wrote in message
>> news:Xns99E7E15822C...@207.14.116.130...
>>
>>>> Would you do it with a TAWS equipped GPS?
>>>>
>>> I do it all the time and haven;'t hit anything yet, AFAIK
>> LOL! The "AFAIK" must make your insurance guy a little jumpy.
>>
>
> Well, I have to be open to the possibility that I hit one and am now in the
> afterlife.
If there's Usenet in the afterlife, you went the wrong direction...
Bertie the Bunyip
news:473fc2f3$0$19230$8046...@newsreader.iphouse.net:
Yes, well I'm still looking for Valhalla but I havn't got the password.
Bertie
Rich Ahrens
Ask Njickie the Njazie nicely.
Bertie the Bunyip
$8046...@newsreader.iphouse.net:
I did! I even got a sock to ask him, but no luck.
That group wasn't propagated properly and apparently there were lot of ways
in but none that I found that lasted for long. I hinted to Gary about this
but he didn;t want to know..
Bertie
Mxsmanic
> Those pesky F-16s are impossible to see-and-avoid at night.
How often are they flying around at night?
Mxsmanic
> What really amazes me is in this country of " All people are created
> equal" Steve Fossett gets C-130's with night vision stuff, satellites
> orbiting for his benefit and god only knows what else they threw into
> the mix, Kennedy's plane goes into the drink and the guvmint sends out
> subs, satellites, boats, planes, yada, yada, yada. If , god forbid I
> go down, I want the exact same search resources used to look for me.
> After all I am a tax paying American citizan too.
That doesn't count. You have to be rich and/or famous, preferably both.
Bertie the Bunyip
news:a311k3h6a65j835rs...@4ax.com:
> Larry Dighera writes:
>
>> Those pesky F-16s are impossible to see-and-avoid at night.
>
> How often are they flying around at night?
More often than you.
Bertie
Bertie the Bunyip
news:j611k3dsh4ruojnn4...@4ax.com:
Not true. if you were rich and famous they wouldn't send a paper airplane
your way.
Bertie
Robert M. Gary
know who was lost, I've been going through some emails Ed and I
exchanged awhile back. He taught one of the classes when I went to CAP
Check Pilot school. Ed was certainly one of the most qualified pilots
I've ever met. He had been a test pilot, and was working for NASA up
until the time he died. I truely good person who will be missed.
I remember him telling me a story about landing a tailwheel equipped
RV after losing one rudder attachment. A very qualified pilot who was
very approachable, we need more of those..
-Robert
Robert M. Gary
> I refused a visual mountain search at night for a found out later to be a
> false ELT. I was a Mountain Mission Pilot withCAPfor some 20 odd years.
> I and my squadron were punished for the refusal. "I order you to fly this
> search!" No, thank you. Be happy to launch at first light.
>
> No longer with them.
>
I did hear about this story. Apparently the IC was not a qualified
pilot and did not correctly understand the PIC authority. That IC was
relived of duty that day.
-Robert
Robert M. Gary
<Inval...@NotIn.YourLifetime.com.hatespam> wrote:
> On Fri, 16 Nov 2007 11:53:14 -0500, "Marco Leon"
>
>
>
>
>
> ><j...@specsol.spam.sux.com> wrote in message
> >news:t8bs05-...@mail.specsol.com...
>
> >> I agree with the planning part, but there is lots of desert area where
> >> you can't get radar or comm unless you are really high, in which case
> >> you don't really need to worry much about peaks.
>
> >> Unless you have an airplane that climbs really well, you will lose
> >> communications with Las Vegas app/dep climbing out from Henderson
> >> for a while because of the hills around Vegas for example.
>
> >> And it seems that (departure and approach) is when most of these
> >> accidents occur; not at a good cruise altitude and can't see much.
>
> >> BTW, there is always traffic on the freeways 24/7/365.
>
> >As someone mentioned, doesn't the G1000 have terrain built-in? Also, aren't
> >there TAWS-like audible warnings with a window-popup?
>
> Terrain is builtin, TAWS is a ~$7500 addon card which I don't think
> theCAPopts to pay.
We have terrain on all our G1000 aircraft. However, I often find that
its been turned off. Some pilots doesn't use it (probably VFR day and
they don't like looking at all the red when flying through our
valley). CAP is a lot like the AF. When you jump in the plane any
number of people may have flown it since you flew it last, anyone
qualified can simply take it, there is no restriction other than being
qualified. In anycase, any G1000 qualified pilot should know how to
turn it back on. I'm not aware of any actual warning (aural, etc) just
the red area on the MFD and the PFD inset.
-Robert
Peter Clark
<N70...@gmail.com> wrote:
>I'm not aware of any actual warning (aural, etc) just
>the red area on the MFD and the PFD inset.
I'm not surprised, since advisory terrain comes with the system,
TAWS-B (aural warnings, "TERRAIN TERRAIN, PULL UP, PULL UP") is an
extra-cost addon.
Robert M. Gary
The sad thing is that of the two pilot friends I have lost that I was
the closest to both were night CFIT. I'm not sure if that is typical
or because we live near the Sierras or what.
-Robert
Kloudy via AviationKB.com
>> "Gatt" <ga...@damnnearwiley00.com> wrote in news:13jkb2tb9c2q155
>> @corp.supernews.com:
>> Well, I have to be open to the possibility that I hit one and am now in the
>> afterlife.
>
>If there's Usenet in the afterlife, you went the wrong direction...
I said it before.. AfterLife has no internet.
Post-it notes
spam in all colors o' the rainbow
--
Message posted via AviationKB.com
http://www.aviationkb.com/Uwe/Forums.aspx/aviation/200711/1
benf...@aol.com
>
> - Show quoted text -
Hi Robert. Sorry about your loss of a close friend. After reading your
post the common denominator is the word " qualified". If a CAP ,member
has not performed a Form 5 check ride in a G1000 aircraft he/she
should not be able to fly it. If they checked out in a older model
with steam gauges then that should be the extent of their privalages.
Two very experienced CAP pilots flying at night should have used every
option available to them, including terrain warning and flight
following. Now we have two dead pilots and one destroyed 400,000
dollar plane that belonged to the taxpayers. Who pays to reinburse the
american taxpayers? During the time I spent with the CAP here in
Wyoming all I ever heard was "you wreck it you bought it". Fletcher
Anderson flew N9928H, a CAP plane, into a wire 17 feet above the snake
river. He's dead, planes destroyed, as far as I know nobody payed. It
is the same ol CAP BS.
The Civil Air Patrol is a great idea with VERY poor execution.... No
wonder the US in in debt 10+ TRILLION dollars....
Just my two cents worth..
Ben
Robert M. Gary
CAP has procedure in place to insure that. Before he took off he
needed to secure a flight release from a flight release officer. That
flight release officer is required to ensure the pilot is current and
qualified in the G1000 aircraft.
> Two very experienced CAP pilots flying at night should have used every
> option available to them, including terrain warning and flight
And to our knowledge they did. No one knows what was displayed on the
MFD.
>
> The Civil Air Patrol is a great idea with VERY poor execution.... No
> wonder the US in in debt 10+ TRILLION dollars....
I've not seen that, at least in the California Wing. If anything there
is more red tape than I'd like to see.
-Robert
Watson
The IC threatened to punish the squadron. And was successful by having the
squadron assigned plane removed for a matter of months. The squadron had to
write an apology and agree to fly night search missions in the mountains
with some concessions like: real search (not just an ELT, two pilots
onboard, both IFR and night current, etc). So much for PIC authority.
There is the CAP on paper, then there is the real CAP. They are vastly
different in my experience.
"Robert M. Gary" <N70...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:6ebe3a7d-829b-4a4b...@g21g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
Robert M. Gary
> Maybe a different story.
>
> The IC threatened to punish the squadron. And was successful by having the
> squadron assigned plane removed for a matter of months. The squadron had to
> write an apology and agree to fly night search missions in the mountains
> with some concessions like: real search (not just an ELT, two pilots
> onboard, both IFR and night current, etc). So much for PIC authority.
>
> different in my experience.
Interesting. Again that has not been my experience. I did hear that a
California IC tried to order a pilot to fly during the Fausett mission
after the pilot felt he was too tired. The IC threatened the pilot
with relieving him of duty for the next week. The pilot called his
commander who called the group commander who had the IC relieved
within a few hours.
-Robert
Morgans
"Robert M. Gary" <> wrote
> Interesting. Again that has not been my experience. I did hear that a
> California IC tried to order a pilot to fly during the Fausett mission
> after the pilot felt he was too tired. The IC threatened the pilot
> with relieving him of duty for the next week. The pilot called his
> commander who called the group commander who had the IC relieved
> within a few hours.
I know I'm about to do a "forehead slap," but what does IC stand for?
Incident Commander, is my guess, but that is just a guess.
--
Jim in NC