Could the lack of a moon have contributed to this tragic accident?
TOP CIVIL AIR PATROL OFFICERS KILLED (http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/996-full.html#196556) The FAA and NTSB are investigating how two seasoned pilots, both senior officers in the Civil Air Patrol, flew into a mountain near Las Vegas Thursday evening. Col. Edwin Lewis, director of operations for CAP's western region, and Col. Dion DeCamp, commander of the Nevada unit, died when their CAP Cessna 182 hit 8,500-ft. Mt. Polosi, about 12 miles southwest of Las Vegas. According to the FAA preliminary report
POSTED: 7:38 pm PST November 10, 2007 UPDATED: 8:34 pm PST November 10, 2007
LAS VEGAS -- Civil Air Patrol officials confirm that two of their own were killed in a plane crash into Mount Potosi, just outside of Las Vegas.
Col. Edwin W. Lewis Jr., director of operations for CAP's Pacific Region, and Col. Dion E. DeCamp, commander of CAP's Nevada Wing, died Thursday evening when their CAP plane crashed into the mountain.
Lewis had traveled to Nellis Air Force Base to drop off a CAP airplane to be used as an airshow display. He and DeCamp were apparently en route to Rosamond, Calif., Lewis' hometown, when the crash occurred.
"The CAP family is deeply saddened by this tremendous loss," said Brig. Gen. Amy S. Courter, CAP interim national commander. "There were no finer members than Col. DeCamp and Col. Lewis. Their illustrious volunteer service, which collectively spanned more than seven decades, touched innumerable lives and now, in sorrow, consoles those left behind as a testament to their dedication and commitment to the citizens of their respective communities."
The cause of Thursday evening's crash is unknown at this time. Officials from the National Transportation Safety Board are currently investigating the incident.
Accident described as not survivable by LV police air unit
By BETH WALTON REVIEW-JOURNAL Click image for enlargement.
Two people were presumed killed Thursday night when a Civil Air Patrol plane crashed into Mount Potosi, about 35 miles southwest of Las Vegas, officials said.
A police air unit crew who flew over the wreckage said the crash was not survivable.
The plane, a single-engine Cessna 172 , went off the radar at McCarran International Airport about 7:15 p.m., said Ian Gregor, spokesman for the Federal Aviation Administration.
It was the second small plane that disappeared from local radar Thursday night. The same thing had happened with a single-engine Beechcraft Bonanza at 6:37 p.m. Authorities later learned that plane had made a successful emergency landing several miles southeast of Jean, and its two occupants, who were headed to Phoenix from Las Vegas, were unhurt, Gregor said.
A Las Vegas police air unit was searching the area around Mount Potosi when the crew heard an explosion and saw a plane burning on the mountain, Lt. Steve Herpolsheimer said.
The crash was estimated to be about 2,000 feet from the top of the 8,514-foot tall mountain, Herpolsheimer said.
Search and rescue crews tried to get to the crash site using four-wheel-drive vehicles, he said. Rescue air units were also sent out to the site, said Las Vegas police spokesman Bill Cassell.
Late Thursday, police were considering pulling back and waiting until daylight to try to reach the crash site.
Cassell said he had no idea why the Civil Air Patrol plane was flying Thursday night. The most common mission for the Civil Air Patrol is search and rescue.
The crew of this plane was not believed to have been searching for the missing Beechcraft, so perhaps they were involved in a training flight, Cassell said.
Civil Air Patrol representatives could not be reached for comment late Thursday.
Mount Potosi is known as the site of a 1942 plane crash in which actress Carole Lombard and 21 other people died.
Lombard, the wife of actor Clark Gable, had been returning to California after taking part in a national war bond campaign for World War II when the plane she was in, a twin-engine DC-3, slammed into a cliff near the top of the mountain.
> > Could the lack of a moon have contributed to this tragic accident?
> Offhand I'd say it an impact with granite. And that's always down to the > pilot not knowing where he is.
> Period.
> Bertie
Damn, that hadda smart!
Long ago we had a hot shot pilot on our field that liked to hot dog it, run the length of the runway and then do a zoom up, etc... He went on a flying trip to South America and found a Cumulus Granitis one scud run day...
>> > Could the lack of a moon have contributed to this tragic accident?
>> Offhand I'd say it an impact with granite. And that's always down to >> the pilot not knowing where he is.
>> Period.
>> Bertie
> Damn, that hadda smart!
> Long ago we had a hot shot pilot on our field that liked to hot dog > it, run the length of the runway and then do a zoom up, etc... He > went on a flying trip to South America and found a Cumulus Granitis > one scud run day...
Sam Clemens was asked, when he applied for a job as a River boat captain, if he knew where the various sandbars and other hazards in the missisippi were. "nope, but I know where they ain't" said he.
> Could the lack of a moon have contributed to this tragic accident?
> TOP CIVIL AIR PATROL OFFICERS KILLED > (http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/996-full.html#196556) > The FAA and NTSB are investigating how two seasoned pilots, both > senior officers in the Civil Air Patrol, flew into a mountain near > Las Vegas Thursday evening. Col. Edwin Lewis, director of > operations for CAP's western region, and Col. Dion DeCamp, > commander of the Nevada unit, died when their CAP Cessna 182 hit > 8,500-ft. Mt. Polosi, about 12 miles southwest of Las Vegas. > According to the FAA preliminary report
Oh I just love reading stuff like this. Two experienced (way more than me) pilots in the same cockpit auger it in. Makes me and my feeble skills feel real good...pause...NOT.
> > Could the lack of a moon have contributed to this tragic accident?
> > TOP CIVIL AIR PATROL OFFICERS KILLED > > (http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/996-full.html#196556) > > The FAA and NTSB are investigating how two seasoned pilots, both > > senior officers in the Civil Air Patrol, flew into a mountain near > > Las Vegas Thursday evening. Col. Edwin Lewis, director of > > operations for CAP's western region, and Col. Dion DeCamp, > > commander of the Nevada unit, died when their CAP Cessna 182 hit > > 8,500-ft. Mt. Polosi, about 12 miles southwest of Las Vegas. > > According to the FAA preliminary report
> Oh I just love reading stuff like this. Two experienced (way more than me) > pilots in the same cockpit auger it in. Makes me and my feeble skills feel > real good...pause...NOT.
What's really sad is both of them being locals should have known better.
The Southwestern desert area is full of peaks in the 6000 to 9000 foot range.
There are no lights, they are damn hard to see under a full moon, and impossible to see in anything less.
There are four simple solutions to the problem:
1. Don't fly at night in the area.
2. Sophisticated terrain avoidance technology.
3. Always fly high.
4. Stay over a highway.
Numbers 1 and 4 are probably the most practical for most GA VFR pilots.
As a student, my night cross country was through the Banning Pass to Palm Springs on a night with close to a full moon.
The fact that for a conciderable portion of the flight the only thing I could reliably see was the traffic on the highway below me while surrounded by mountains I could not climb over made a lasting impression.
> Oh I just love reading stuff like this. Two experienced (way more than me) > pilots in the same cockpit auger it in. Makes me and my feeble skills feel > real good...pause...NOT.
The NTSB (US) accident reports are full of very experience pilots killing themselves and others. I believe the lesson is often that experience sometimes leads to complacency. With experience you need to vow to not become complacent in any aspect of aviation.
> Could the lack of a moon have contributed to this tragic accident?
> TOP CIVIL AIR PATROL OFFICERS KILLED > (http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/996-full.html#196556) > The FAA and NTSB are investigating how two seasoned pilots, both > senior officers in the Civil Air Patrol, flew into a mountain near > Las Vegas Thursday evening. Col. Edwin Lewis, director of > operations for CAP's western region, and Col. Dion DeCamp, > commander of the Nevada unit, died when their CAP Cessna 182 hit > 8,500-ft. Mt. Polosi, about 12 miles southwest of Las Vegas. > According to the FAA preliminary report
> POSTED: 7:38 pm PST November 10, 2007 > UPDATED: 8:34 pm PST November 10, 2007
> LAS VEGAS -- Civil Air Patrol officials confirm that two of their > own were killed in a plane crash into Mount Potosi, just outside > of Las Vegas.
> Col. Edwin W. Lewis Jr., director of operations for CAP's Pacific > Region, and Col. Dion E. DeCamp, commander of CAP's Nevada Wing, > died Thursday evening when their CAP plane crashed into the > mountain.
> Lewis had traveled to Nellis Air Force Base to drop off a CAP > airplane to be used as an airshow display. He and DeCamp were > apparently en route to Rosamond, Calif., Lewis' hometown, when the > crash occurred.
> "The CAP family is deeply saddened by this tremendous loss," said > Brig. Gen. Amy S. Courter, CAP interim national commander. "There > were no finer members than Col. DeCamp and Col. Lewis. Their > illustrious volunteer service, which collectively spanned more > than seven decades, touched innumerable lives and now, in sorrow, > consoles those left behind as a testament to their dedication and > commitment to the citizens of their respective communities."
> The cause of Thursday evening's crash is unknown at this time. > Officials from the National Transportation Safety Board are > currently investigating the incident.
> Accident described as not survivable by LV police air unit
> By BETH WALTON > REVIEW-JOURNAL > Click image for enlargement.
> Two people were presumed killed Thursday night when a Civil Air > Patrol plane crashed into Mount Potosi, about 35 miles southwest > of Las Vegas, officials said.
> A police air unit crew who flew over the wreckage said the crash > was not survivable.
> The plane, a single-engine Cessna 172 , went off the radar at > McCarran International Airport about 7:15 p.m., said Ian Gregor, > spokesman for the Federal Aviation Administration.
> It was the second small plane that disappeared from local radar > Thursday night. The same thing had happened with a single-engine > Beechcraft Bonanza at 6:37 p.m. Authorities later learned that > plane had made a successful emergency landing several miles > southeast of Jean, and its two occupants, who were headed to > Phoenix from Las Vegas, were unhurt, Gregor said.
> A Las Vegas police air unit was searching the area around Mount > Potosi when the crew heard an explosion and saw a plane burning on > the mountain, Lt. Steve Herpolsheimer said.
> The crash was estimated to be about 2,000 feet from the top of the > 8,514-foot tall mountain, Herpolsheimer said.
> Search and rescue crews tried to get to the crash site using > four-wheel-drive vehicles, he said. Rescue air units were also > sent out to the site, said Las Vegas police spokesman Bill > Cassell.
> Late Thursday, police were considering pulling back and waiting > until daylight to try to reach the crash site.
> Cassell said he had no idea why the Civil Air Patrol plane was > flying Thursday night. The most common mission for the Civil Air > Patrol is search and rescue.
> The crew of this plane was not believed to have been searching for > the missing Beechcraft, so perhaps they were involved in a > training flight, Cassell said.
> Civil Air Patrol representatives could not be reached for comment > late Thursday.
> Mount Potosi is known as the site of a 1942 plane crash in which > actress Carole Lombard and 21 other people died.
> Lombard, the wife of actor Clark Gable, had been returning to > California after taking part in a national war bond campaign for > World War II when the plane she was in, a twin-engine DC-3, > slammed into a cliff near the top of the mountain.
Instrument rules will keep you away from things that go bump in the night. When flying VFR at night in the mountains, you have to know exactly where you are and exactly where the granite is (at least until you've climbed high enough).
On the occasions that I do fly night VFR in the mountains, I only do so when I can get high enough to clear all terrain, or fly the whole route over a highway. On climb out and descent, I stay over visible highways.
I know some pilots that are using the terrain features of their Garmin 396/496 to keep them clear of mountains at night. I think they're nuts.
> >> > Could the lack of a moon have contributed to this tragic accident?
> >> Offhand I'd say it an impact with granite. And that's always down to > >> the pilot not knowing where he is.
> >> Period.
> >> Bertie
> > Damn, that hadda smart!
> > Long ago we had a hot shot pilot on our field that liked to hot dog > > it, run the length of the runway and then do a zoom up, etc... He > > went on a flying trip to South America and found a Cumulus Granitis > > one scud run day...
> Sam Clemens was asked, when he applied for a job as a River boat captain, > if he knew where the various sandbars and other hazards in the missisippi > were. "nope, but I know where they ain't" said he.
I refused a visual mountain search at night for a found out later to be a false ELT. I was a Mountain Mission Pilot with CAP for some 20 odd years. I and my squadron were punished for the refusal. "I order you to fly this search!" No, thank you. Be happy to launch at first light.
>> >> > Could the lack of a moon have contributed to this tragic >> >> > accident?
>> >> Offhand I'd say it an impact with granite. And that's always down >> >> to the pilot not knowing where he is.
>> >> Period.
>> >> Bertie
>> > Damn, that hadda smart!
>> > Long ago we had a hot shot pilot on our field that liked to hot dog >> > it, run the length of the runway and then do a zoom up, etc... He >> > went on a flying trip to South America and found a Cumulus Granitis >> > one scud run day...
>> Sam Clemens was asked, when he applied for a job as a River boat >> captain, if he knew where the various sandbars and other hazards in >> the missisippi were. "nope, but I know where they ain't" said he.
>> Bertie- Hide quoted text -
>> - Show quoted text -
> And he was hired on the spot!
Yep.
That's the trick to just about any kind of flying. A lot of people focus on the "right way to do it". Well, the fact is there is no real right way to do anything. There are some things that are just wrong, but the only constant truth I've seen about flying any airplane is that you are going to fuck up something during every flight. Mostly, you;re fucking up quite a few things at any given moment during every flight. If it;'s not you fucking something up, it's your crew, ATC, the manufacturer of the airplane or whoever. Mostly it's yourself and your job, should you wish to make it to the end of your career n the air, is to spot them and /or operate in such a way as to keep the fuckups from killing you. The one common thread between almost all CFIT accidents has been, at some point close to the event if not right up to it, the crew were sure they knew where they were. If they had questioned that notion regularly well..
Oh damn, now I've gone and answered Matt Whitefishfaced question as well and given him somethng to beat me with.
> I refused a visual mountain search at night for a found out later to > be a false ELT. I was a Mountain Mission Pilot with CAP for some 20 > odd years. I and my squadron were punished for the refusal. "I order > you to fly this search!" No, thank you. Be happy to launch at first > light.
> No longer with them.
Well, I've known quite a few of them over the years. Some really good guys in the CAP, but about 95% are complete and utter assholes.
>> Could the lack of a moon have contributed to this tragic accident?
>Offhand I'd say it an impact with granite. And that's always down to the >pilot not knowing where he is.
>Period.
And considering the N-number was a 2007 T182T they were in a G1000 with moving map and minimally can display "terrain" screens on the 12" moving map MFD.
>>> Could the lack of a moon have contributed to this tragic accident?
>>Offhand I'd say it an impact with granite. And that's always down to the >>pilot not knowing where he is.
>>Period.
> And considering the N-number was a 2007 T182T they were in a G1000 > with moving map and minimally can display "terrain" screens on the 12" > moving map MFD.
If you're relying on one of those things you can't have a goo situational awareness thing going on where it counts.
in your head.
the guys who hit the hills in Cali had a moving map....
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