Bad Stories about Plane Purchases
Jon Kraus
aware of the costs (as much as a non-owner can be). I would like to
hear from those of you who have unfortunately have had a bad (expensive
or otherwise)experience with a plane purchase. I will also post for good
experiences. Thanks !!
Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
(possible Mooney buyer)
Jon Kraus
aware of the costs (as much as a non-owner can be). I would like to
purchase. I have the bad experience posts also. My guess is that the
good will outweigh the bad by a long shot (or at least I am hoping so)
OtisWinslow
from
a dealer far away. No prebuy. Didn't have a single problem with it. Plane
three I bought
from a dealer a few hundred miles away, looked at by a friend and haven't
had a problem with
it. Plane two I bought from a local owner, had an annual as a prebuy, low
time plane (900 hrs),
engine started making metal a year later, seems like I was fixing one thing
after another
till I sold it. So out of five planes I've owned .. the only one I had a
good prebuy done cost me
a fortune constantly until I sold it. The others never had any issues. Go
figure.
"Jon Kraus" <jkr...@indy.rr.com> wrote in message
news:SMnSc.154948$fv.1...@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
jkr...@indy.rr.com
David Megginson
> I am looking into purchasing my own plane... I think that I am pretty
> aware of the costs (as much as a non-owner can be). I would like to
> hear from those of you who have unfortunately have had a bad (expensive
> or otherwise)experience with a plane purchase. I will also post for good
> experiences. Thanks !!
Well, you're starting with a complex plane, which will mean more surprises
for you, but from what everyone's posting, the Mooneys (metal wing) are
about as simple as complex planes get.
My experiences with my Warrior were neither good nor bad, but I did learn a
lot -- for example, if you want to fly IFR and have old radios in the plane,
be prepared for lots of trips to the avionics tech, especially if the
previous owner was VFR-only and didn't really care if he could hear ident on
nav2 or the CDI was 15 degrees off on alternate Tuesdays. If you learn to
remove the radios yourself so that you can drop them off and pick them up,
and you're a bit flexible about time, and you might find that avionics techs
will try to fit smallish jobs into a single billing hour. They can also
often source used parts for you, since they make most of their money
removing old avionics stacks and installing new ones.
Maintenance costs will likely be your single biggest item, so be *very*
specific about what work you want done on your plane, ask for a rough
estimate in advance (understanding that unexpected problems can show up),
and try to be present while the work is being done: I'm not suggesting that
mechanics are dishonest (on the contrary, mine have been excellent), but it
gets expensive fast once they start doing things you could do yourself.
They need to understand that you're not one of the toss-them-the-keys,
never-look-under-the-cowling, money-is-no-object owners you see around airports.
In my experience, mechanics (especially the ones used to working on
commercially-registered planes) tend to order expensive parts from the
manufacturer rather than much cheaper third-party parts, especially for
non-critical things like plastics, fairings, windows, etc. -- the people on
the Mooney list will help you learn to source things like that for a
fraction of the price (and typically much higher quality than the
manufacturer's parts as well). That's another big opportunity to control costs.
Even taking all of this into consideration, the rule of thumb is to set
aside 25% of the purchase price as a reserve for unplanned repairs and
upgrades during the first couple of years -- or, in other words, don't spend
more than 80% of what you have available. From my experience, that's about
right. If you accept in advance that you'll have to spend an extra $25K on
a $100K plane in the first couple of years, over and above regular flying
costs, you'll end up with a good story; if you let it catch you by surprise,
you'll end up with a bad one.
Best of luck, and you'll have my envy when you're zooming past me in your
Mooney.
All the best,
David
Jon Kraus
aware of the costs (as much as a non-owner can be). I would like to
jkr...@indy.rr.com
Aaron Coolidge
: I am looking into purchasing my own plane... I think that I am pretty
Jon, I had an extremely good experience buying my airplane. It was located
completely across the country. I flew out, looked at it, had a quick prebuy
done (2 hours of labor from a mechanic*), and agreed to buy it. It was exactly
as advertised by the seller. I have flown the airplane > 600 hours in the last
4 years, and I have had no significant surprises or unexpected repairs. I
try to be pro-active in maintenance instead of presenting a huge list of
broken items at an annual, I have those items repaired as needed. I make
every attempt to keep the plane in top condition, which often doesn't need
large sums of money - I keep the engine bay & belly clean which makes small
oil drips easy to find before they become big problems, etc.
* I believe that it's possible to do the entire visual inspection part of
an annual inspection on a Cherokee in less than 2 hours if the inspection
plates are off, and I took those off for this inspection. I had the mechanic
concentrate on areas of corrosion (none), condition of flight controls (good)
cables (good) and bearings (good), and engine condition (compression good,
no metals found in oil filter or screen).
--
Aaron Coolidge (N9376J)
Dylan Smith
> I am looking into purchasing my own plane... I think that I am pretty
> aware of the costs (as much as a non-owner can be). I would like to
> hear from those of you who have had a good experience with a plane
> purchase.
We found Lusty Betty (our C140) for sale at our airport before it was
even advertised (often the best buys go by word-of-mouth and sell before
they reach print). The plane was in very good condition and needed very
little work doing to it. I flew that plane coast to coast in the US.
--
Dylan Smith, Castletown, Isle of Man
Flying: http://www.dylansmith.net
Frontier Elite Universe: http://www.alioth.net
"Maintain thine airspeed, lest the ground come up and smite thee"
Peter Duniho
> I am looking into purchasing my own plane... I think that I am pretty
> aware of the costs (as much as a non-owner can be). I would like to
> hear from those of you who have unfortunately have had a bad (expensive
> or otherwise)experience with a plane purchase. I will also post for good
> experiences. Thanks !!
Very few aircraft purchases are likely to be purely bad or purely good.
I'll offer some hindsight-based advice from my own experience:
* Review the logbooks yourself. The mechanic doing the prepurchase
inpection may or may not note all of the interesting details. In my own
case, the prepurchase inspection made no mention of the airplane not being
up-to-date on inspections related to IFR requirements.
* If there are any contingencies, seller-provided add-ons, repairs,
whatever, make sure that the language in your contract is very clear. The
seller likely will take any opportunity to skimp on their obligations, if
the contract offers an opportunity to do so.
* Any inspection on which the sale is contingent must be done by a
disinterested third-party, one of your choosing. A prepurchase is useless
otherwise, and a "legal" annual inspection can be accomplished without
necessarily bringing the airplane up to your standards (I put "legal" in
quotes, because what's legal to the IA may not seem legal to you or me).
Make sure the A&P/IA doing any inspection is very familiar with the type of
aircraft. Talk to type clubs and other owners to find out who the local
"expert" in that type is, to find an appropriate person to do inspections.
* Before making a final agreement to purchase, do a thorough preflight
inspection and complete inflight testing of *everything* on the airplane.
Fly the airplane through a wide range of its envelope, from slow flight to
the top of the yellow arc. Test EVERY piece of avionics equipment
installed; for navigation equipment, reference visual landmarks to ascertain
accuracy. Make sure various entities (ATC, other pilots, Unicom operators)
can receive communications and transponder signals.
Finally, it's probably best to decide ahead of time what course of action
you plan to take should something regarding the sale go wrong. One option
is always legal action against the seller, but in truth that will involve a
huge amount of headache, time, and expense and you may find that stress is
better invested in simply rectifying whatever problem with the airplane that
exists. Of course, it's better to do as much in advance of the sale to
ensure you know what you're getting and that the airplane meets the seller's
claims (if any).
Regardless, you can expect to spend as much as one or two annual inspections
or more getting the airplane up to your standards after purchase. Make sure
you have enough reserve money to cover those expenses. Most airplanes being
sold are being sold because the owner has finally figured out that they can
no longer justify ownership, often after the airplane has been left somewhat
neglected (though usually still airworthy) for some time. Things that might
be acceptable to an owner thinking of getting rid of the airplane anyway
might not be acceptable to a new owner expecting to get a lot of use out of
their newly acquired airplane.
Pete
G.R. Patterson III
Dylan Smith wrote:
>
> We found Lusty Betty (our C140) for sale at our airport before it was
> even advertised (often the best buys go by word-of-mouth and sell before
> they reach print).
The local airport is frequently the best place to find a good deal. I still regret
not doing a better job of that when I bought my first plane. There was a Bonanza I
missed out on. Bought a 150 instead. :-(
If I'd bought that and spent about as much money on it as I did on the 150 and Maule,
I'd have a *really* nice antique.
George Patterson
If you want to know God's opinion of money, just look at the people
he gives it to.
Jay Honeck
> > aware of the costs (as much as a non-owner can be). I would like to
> > hear from those of you who have unfortunately have had a bad (expensive
> > or otherwise)experience with a plane purchase. I will also post for good
> > experiences. Thanks !!
It's all good, with hind-sight.
Plane one, a Piper Warrior, was an easy buy -- but it took forever to find.
After a good pre-buy we dickered on price, the seller came down to my offer,
we shook hands, signed the paperwork, and the deal was done.
That plane flew great until my first annual, where the shop (the same one
that did the pre-buy) found $5K worth of stuff to fix. Little did I know
they were going bankrupt, and were trying to make their payroll on my
nickel. As a new owner, beware!
After that, it was (and still is) a trouble-free, great little plane.
Our second plane, a Piper Pathfinder, was a "cream-puff" we had been
drooling over on the field. We discovered that it was making metal at the
pre-buy. We offered commensurately less money, the seller agreed, and we
immediately put in an overhauled Lycoming O-540.
We spent a lot more money than we had expected, but ended up with (in our
opinion) our perfect plane. Other than basic maintenance and a fair number
of upgrades, it's been a low cost, trouble-free plane.
Buying a plane is tough, and a crap shoot -- but aircraft ownership is
easily worth the hassle.
Good luck!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"
Ken Reed
> aware of the costs (as much as a non-owner can be). I would like to
> hear from those of you who have had a good experience with a plane
> purchase. I have the bad experience posts also. My guess is that the
> good will outweigh the bad by a long shot (or at least I am hoping so)
Last year I bought a 1967 'C' model Mooney. It had 2500 TT & 700 SMOH. I
put 125 hours on it the first year. I've replaced the PC (autopilot) &
retractable step servos. They were about $70 each and I did the work
under A&P supervision. They took about a half-hour each on average.
I added a yoke mount GPS (AvMap, with significant influence by Jay) and
had the windshield installed that was part of the purchase of the airplane.
Really nothing significant. The dreaded first annual was a non-event. I
put the engine on oil analysis and it has been absolutely fine and
trouble free.
It is tough to beat a 'C' model Mooney for value, economy and simplicity
and reliability of systems.
---
Ken Reed
http://www.dentalzzz.com
JJS
wind damage? If so was it repaired? What happened to it?
Joe Schneider
8437R
JJS
would know how little money I have invested and someday I may want to
sell it to someone on the group. :')
Joe Schneider
8437R
"Jon Kraus" <jkr...@indy.rr.com> wrote in message
news:phoSc.154976$fv.1...@fe2.columbus.rr.com...
Paul Sengupta
news:WxtSc.289094$XM6.146747@attbi_s53...>
> We spent a lot more money than we had expected, but ended up with (in our
> opinion) our perfect plane. Other than basic maintenance and a fair number
> of upgrades, it's been a low cost, trouble-free plane.
>
> Buying a plane is tough, and a crap shoot -- but aircraft ownership is
> easily worth the hassle.
So when are you going to buy a Decathlon or other such toy "for Mary"?
Paul
Jay Honeck
I've got to find a few partners before buying a "fun" plane...
The Decathlon is very cool, but it's not a great traveling plane, nor can it
carry my kids.
Paul Sengupta
> > So when are you going to buy a Decathlon or other such toy "for Mary"?
>
> I've got to find a few partners before buying a "fun" plane...
>
> The Decathlon is very cool, but it's not a great traveling plane, nor can
it
> carry my kids.
Hence the "for Mary" bit. As in second plane. As well as the PA28,
not instead of...
It can carry one kid at a time...
Paul
tony roberts
One thing that I don't understand, and hopefully someone here will
enlighten me, is why it is so sacred to have an aircraft that hasn't had
accident damage.
Two of my friends each have aircraft that had accident damage over 30
years ago.
So What?
They have flown beautifully for more than 30 years since the accident -
so what is the big deal? I absolutely don't get it. - It would be
different if the accident was 5 flight hours ago - but these are more
than a major TBO away.
Tony
In article <7KnSc.154946$fv.7...@fe2.columbus.rr.com>,
Jon Kraus <jkr...@indy.rr.com> wrote:
--
Indiacha...@hotmail.com
Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Almost Instrument :)
Cessna 172H C-GICE
Peter Duniho
news:nospam-4DDD2A.22064411082004@shawnews...
> One thing that I don't understand, and hopefully someone here will
> enlighten me, is why it is so sacred to have an aircraft that hasn't had
> accident damage.
IMHO, it depends on when the damage occurred. Recent damage history is
certainly cause for concern. Presumably the airplane has been repaired to
its original airworthiness standards, but you never really know for sure.
Better to have someone else fly the plane for awhile to prove it.
Damage that occurred 5 or 10 years ago is much less of an issue. As you
suggest, planes that have been damage can be and are repaired to perfectly
normal, flyable condition.
In the end, it's as much a market value thing as anything else. It's not so
much that you want to strictly avoid airplanes with damage history as it is
that you don't want to pay as much for one, since most other people wouldn't
either. The more recent the damage, the greater the discount ought to be.
That said, in any case it would be unusual for the discount to be very
large, even with recent damage. I could see very recent damage history
reducing the price by as much as 10%, maybe 15% worst-case for very serious
damage (for damage that's been properly repaired, of course).
Pete
Frank Stutzman
Fugitaboutit. I suggested that idea before he bought the pathfinder. It
seemed to make perfect logic to me, but it seemed to pass Jay by.
--
Frank Stutzman
Bonanza N494B "Hula Girl"
Hood River, OR
Dylan Smith
> Dylan is this the airplane that was tied down with chains and suffered
> wind damage? If so was it repaired? What happened to it?
It was repaired (another long story about terrible maintenance
organisations that lie) and then properly repaired when it got back to
Salt Lake City. I left the US, my partners bought my share and then
fitted a climb prop - it didn't climb great in the Houston flatlands
with 85hp and a cruise prop, and it was even worse at 4800 feet in SLC!
(The climb prop apparently made a useful difference without degrading
cruise speed much. She only did 85 knots in any case).
My partners, realising that 85hp really wasn't the best in all the high
country they wanted to fly to sold it to a gentleman in Georgia, and
bought a share in a Cessna 180.
Unfortunately I bought a wreck of an old house and spent all of my net
worth restoring it, so all I own aviation wise at the moment is a 1/4
share in a 1960s Ka-8 glider!
Bob Noel
<nos...@nowhere.ca> wrote:
> One thing that I don't understand, and hopefully someone here will
> enlighten me, is why it is so sacred to have an aircraft that hasn't had
> accident damage.
Look at it this way: when considering Cessnas and Pipers, why take a
chance on an aircraft with recent damage history when there are so
many other aircraft available?
Implied by my use of "recent" is the recognition that old old
old damage history that was properly repaired shouldn't be
an issue.
--
Bob Noel
Seen on Kerry's campaign airplane: "the real deal"
oh yeah baby.
Jim Burns
and each of their mechanics, consider and define "properly repaired",
"completely repaired", "adequately repaired", "repaired by a Brand C or P or
XYZ certified repair station", or "repaired to new condition". None of
those things actually tell you how well it was repaired.
Certain types of damage may go unseen by a mechanic that thinks he's
"properly repairing" the plane, and then those things get covered up by
fuselage skin and may be in locations where inspection plates just don't
allow a good view. It also may be impractical to remove the skin to
properly view the repairs during a pre-buy.
Depending on the type of damage, you may or may not be able to determine how
the airplane was flown. One example would be a replaced or repaired
firewall on a 182. If the plane was consistently and repeatedly landed hard
on it's nose wheel that the firewall buckled, what else might be slightly
"tweaked" in the engine mounts, landing gear, or airframe??
IMHO, damage history, unless completely explained and repairs well
documented and "inspectable" give me a certain "fear of the unknown" and the
price should be adjusted accordingly.
Jim Burns
"tony roberts" <nos...@nowhere.ca> wrote in message
news:nospam-4DDD2A.22064411082004@shawnews...
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G.R. Patterson III
tony roberts wrote:
>
> Two of my friends each have aircraft that had accident damage over 30
> years ago. So What?
You are quite correct. Properly repaired accident damage is no problem, and the
longer it's been since the repair, the less important it is. Unless, as you say, the
damage is recent, it's just a tool that unscrupulous buyers use to try to talk the
price down.
Jay Honeck
> seemed to make perfect logic to me, but it seemed to pass Jay by.
What, you mus' tink I'm made-a-money?
:-)
Wily Wapiti
good, but stressful experience. The stressor being that, besides a
house, this was my biggest single outlay of money ever. No matter how
good your prebuy, there is always potential for a major disaster after
the plane becomes yours. What will you do if you blow an engine early
on? My partner and I decided that, if the worst happened, the plane
would have to sit for a while while we saved money for a new engine.
This was a risk we looked at and decided up front that we were willing
to take.
Expect the prebuy negotiations, inspections, and paperwork to take a
lot longer and cost more than you anticipate, especially if you are
buying from a private owner. We filled out the FAA Bill-of-Sale form,
but not the Request-for-Registration form, which meant we weren't
quite legal for a couple of days. These forms are virtually identical,
so we thought we were good. One place where going through a
trustworthy broker would be nice! Also, we were doing the purchase
from a private owner, long distance, who was hard to get a hold of.
Minor questions often took several days to get ironed out. Negotiate
with the insurance company on coverage and required hours as well if
you are stepping up in aircraft class.
Have the conditions of the purchase and contigencies SPELLED OUT in
your prepurchase agreement. We jumped the gun and sent the owner a
deposit before we actually filled out the agreement, which made
getting money for several prepurchase deficiencies difficult. Despite
some deficiencies that the prepurchase revealed, we decided the plane
was still what we wanted and in our price range. If we had been
willing to walk away, we might have been able to find something for
slightly less money, fewer problems, better equipment, etc..., but we
decided at the time that it was "close enough". We spent 6 months to
get "close enough".
Be prepared to spend some money right after you get your plane. We
found the following on our prebuy:
1. No current weight and balance: $450
2. Fixed display on #2 NAV: $300
3. Corroded overhead speaker wire: $100
4. Installed new magnetic compass: $100
5. Pitot-static/transponder check: $180
6. Altimeter failed during #5: $750
Several other problems that we haven't fixed yet, but will need
attention.
For the money we spent, we thought we should be able to get something
closer to perfect, but it wasn't in the cards.
Vic
Jay Honeck
> enlighten me, is why it is so sacred to have an aircraft that hasn't had
> accident damage.
Our plane had a bad landing accident when it was just a few months out of
the Piper factory, way back in 1974. It was repaired at a Piper service
center, and has never been damaged since.
I'm sure that incident adversely affected the resale price for the first
decade or so after the accident -- but it certainly hasn't had any impact
since.
At the pre-buy my A&P looked at the logs, looked at the plane, said "hmph",
and never mentioned it again.
A Lieberman
> I am looking into purchasing my own plane... I think that I am pretty
> aware of the costs (as much as a non-owner can be). I would like to
> hear from those of you who have had a good experience with a plane
> purchase.
Hi Jon,
I can say I had a good experience. Frustrating at times, but a good
experience. I happen to be at my airport looking on the bulletin board,
when someone came to me and asked if I was interested in a Sundowner. He
was based at my airport. I said sure, we went to the plane, and everything
looked great to me. My main concern was the high time engine. He offered
44K for it. I said, let me get back to him as I wanted to do some research
on it. Did an AOPA Vref, found that he was about 2K high. Knowing the
engine was on borrowed time (1940 hours). The recommended TBO is 2000
hours. I said at this time, with the high time engine, that I am not
interested. The seller then came back to me 3 weeks later, dropped the
price to 38K. I then said, good so far, but I want a prepurchase
inspection. He wanted me to use his mechanic that was located in a
different airport. I said, no, I want the local mechanic. The local
mechanic did the prepurchase inspection, found some squawks, but nothing of
any major consequence. Compressions on the engine was 76 to 78 (more on
this later). My mechanic said it looked to be a nice plane for the price I
was looking to pay. Logs were excellent he said. Good deal I said.
I then went back to the AOPA website, requested a title search, the title
was clear. The next day, contacted the prior owner and asked him if my CFI
and I could take it around the patch so he could see any problems. No
problems noted with the plane handling except for the Autopilot. Autopilot
was the only thing not working. We didn't realize it at the time, but the
reason the autopilot wasn't working was that the turn coordinator wasn't
working. After flying it, looking at it, I went ahead with the deal. Very
little paperwork. A Bill of Sales, and a form to the FAA to get the
registration in my name. Registration arrived about 1 month later.
About compressions. A lot of emphasis is put on compressions. This is
fine and dandy on the top of the engine, but it doesn't tell you the bottom
half of the engine. I had an exhaust valve break on me in flight from
metal fatique. So, if you are looking at a high time engine, keep this in
mind.
Since owning the plane, I did have all sorts of quirky things happen (sadly
the plane was only flown 10 hours in the prior two years of me getting
it!). After the exhaust valve went belly up, I got the cylinder replaced,
and 10 hours later, a second cylinder started acting up on runup (couldn't
clear the mag). I taxied back, called the mechanic and asked him to get me
an overhaul. Overhaul was 13K on my 180 HP AK4 Lycoming.
I had a vacuum pump failure, turn coordinator replaced, New battery, Nav1
and Nav2 instruments recalibrated when I started my instrument training,
and my first annual last year was 3K for replacing things that go bump in
the night from the UNDERUSAGE of this airplane (wheel bearings replaced for
starters).
I have now flown 253 hours on this plane in the last 18 months. The last
12 months since overhaul, all I have done is change the oil and any other
maintenance my mechanic has recommended.
I will be the first to tell you, ownership has it's price, but the price
you pay is well worth the walk out on the ramp to fly YOUR OWN airplane
without thinking twice. I figured that 253 hours X 100 rental fees would
be 25,300. So, yes on the surface, I paid more for the plane and overhaul,
but saving money now as I am flying 2 times a week.
Fuel runs about $2.80 or so per gallon at 10 gallons an hour. I get the
15W50 oil, very expensive, but I am a believer you get what you pay for. I
change the oil every 50 hours which is working out to be about every other
month.
Tie down is $40 a month, and insurance is $1,200 a year. I suspect the
insurance will drop big time once I get my instrument ticket (checkride
date is 09/04.
Down the road, I will update the avionics. Original radios that came with
plane, and it does have a Garmin 250XL VFR GPS in it. Interior is
original, and needs to be refreshed down the road as well. Mucho bucks for
both, but both work, so I will not fix what works.
I have the plane now where I know it will be a very reliable source of
transportation (after all that was done above, it better be!). Engine
fires within three turns of the prop, hot or cold.
Hope this helps.
Allen
Jerry Jesion
wrote:
>I am looking into purchasing my own plane... I think that I am pretty
>aware of the costs (as much as a non-owner can be). I would like to
>hear from those of you who have unfortunately have had a bad (expensive
>or otherwise)experience with a plane purchase. I will also post for good
>experiences. Thanks !!
I had a bad experience. I purchased a complex plane that looked good,
and had a good pre-buy inspection (2 days) by a mechanic I trust. 260
hrs SMOH by a local shop, good compression, decent radios, and the
logs looked good etc, etc. There were a few squawks that were fixed
right away and I thought things were good. Six months after purchase
I took a trip out west and on the way back the #3 jug came loose.
(All the nuts/studs on the bottom of the cylinder were gone.) Landed
in Co (AKO) and had the engine removed and shipped to a local (to me)
shop with a good reputation for repair. Upon tear down the shop
determined that the wrong pistons were installed (O-320 pistons in an
O-360) a bolt at the accessory drive was missing, the nuts on the
cylinder studs were mis-torqued, and other assorted items had not been
properly done at the last overhaul. I opted for a complete overhaul
at that time with all new cylinders/pistons etc. I went out with my
mechanic and we installed the engine and started back east. I did 3-4
circuits well above pattern altitude and turned east. A few minutes
later I experienced an engine over speed, turned around and landed.
The prop shop determined later that the governor had been misassembled
at the last overhaul. This was repaired and the flight home was
uneventful. At the next annual I decided to get the prop and governor
overhauled by a different shop. The prop hub and one blade failed
inspection so I opted for a new 3 blade. At 130 hours after the 2nd
engine overhaul I found metal in the filter, and when the engine was
disassembled #1 cylinder had most of the boss that the wrist pin goes
thru missing on both sides. Further inspection discovered that the
wrist pin had broken right in the center of the con rod. Off came the
engine and it was sent back to the overhaul shop.
So, the unexpected out of pocket cost so far:
Engine overhaul ~$13k
New prop and governor overhaul ~$8k
Governor overhaul and prop
inspection due to metal in the oil $1300
Engine tear down, repair and R&R ~$4.5k estimated
This adds up to over $26,000 on a $52,000 purchase. I have spent
significant $$ on avionics, and preventative maintenance that I have
not included since this money was my decision to spend. In the last
2.5 years there have been less than 200 hours on the plane. It just
is not airworthy very much of the time.
Lessons learned? Well, if I were to do it again I would never buy a
plane that had a field overhauled engine. I would insist on one that
was done by a major shop. A good pre-buy is a must, but don't count
on it finding all that could be wrong. And finally make sure that you
have plenty of $$ in case things go bad.....
j
Jon Kraus
somewhere. :-) That or you are one of the unluckiest souls I have ever
heard of.... What are the chances of this happening??? Serously...
Sorry to hear of your delema... Is everything OK now?
Jon Kraus
PP-ASEL-IA
Doug
logbooks and copy them. Put them in the safety deposit box. Now, go to
an office supply store and buy a nice 3 ring binder with plastic
sleeves. Copy enough paper with the words "do not use this side" on
one side. Put the paper in the sleeves. Now, when you have to log
something, the log sticker goes on one sheet of paper. One log sticker
per sheet of paper. Or if the mechanic prefers to write directly on
the paper, fine. But ONE log per sheet! If you want to make an oil
change log, do that on a seperate sheet of paper (not each oil change,
you can put those all on one). Now, the advantage is, if there is a
mistake in the logs, it is fixable. You have one log per sheet.
Perfectly legal with the FAA too. Don't worry about engine logs, prop
logs or aircraft logs, just keep it sequential.
If you sell the plane and the owner objects to this system, you can
carefully cut each log out, and paste it into a traditional logbook.
Do this and you will have pristine logs.
The logbooks to a plane are worth 1/4 the price of the plane. So next
time you take a look at your log books, think $25k.
"Peter Duniho" <NpOeS...@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> wrote in message news:<10hklgh...@corp.supernews.com>...
Paul Sengupta
> > Fugitaboutit. I suggested that idea before he bought the pathfinder.
It
> > seemed to make perfect logic to me, but it seemed to pass Jay by.
>
> What, you mus' tink I'm made-a-money?
We just like spending your money!
"I want to upgrade my Warrior"
"Get a new plane"
"But I can modify mine"
"Get a new plane"
"The engine's making metal"
"Buy it, but get a new engine"
etc...
Paul
Jay Honeck
Hey, now!
I gotta stop listening to you guys...
;-)
Jerry Jesion
wrote:
>You must be freakn' cursed !!! Is there a Kennedy in your family
>somewhere. :-) That or you are one of the unluckiest souls I have ever
>heard of.... What are the chances of this happening??? Serously...
>Sorry to hear of your delema... Is everything OK now?
>
>Jon Kraus
>PP-ASEL-IA
>
>
No Kennedys in the family! The engine is still at the overhaul shop
and should be back in the plane in a couple of weeks.
j
G.R. Patterson III
Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> > We just like spending your money!
>
> Hey, now!
>
> I gotta stop listening to you guys...
Why? *You* like spending your money too! :-)
Paul
What do you mean by "unscrupulous buyer" and that last bit about
"God's opinion about money".
Seems you may have your "knickers in a bundle"
Paul
"G.R. Patterson III" <grpp...@verizon.net> wrote in message news:<411B86C0...@verizon.net>...
psyshrike
> I am looking into purchasing my own plane... I think that I am pretty
> aware of the costs (as much as a non-owner can be). I would like to
> hear from those of you who have unfortunately have had a bad (expensive
> or otherwise)experience with a plane purchase. I will also post for good
> experiences. Thanks !!
>
> PP-ASEL-IA
> (possible Mooney buyer)
Howdy,
Mine was a 66 M20E
If I was going to do it again, I wouldn't bother with a buyers agent.
The sales process is about 3 pieces of paper, and a sales contract.
Definately not worth the percentage.
The prepurchase: BE THERE, and ASK QUESTIONS!
Don't even think about proceeding unless the guy doing the prepurchase
is recommended by another Mooney owner. They are simple for complex
aircraft, but the stuff that fails is different, and just as expensive
to fix. Joe cessna-wrench is not going to check everything that needs
to get checked.
Have a pre-purchase contract, and then work an annual into the deal.
The planes going to be all apart anyway, might as well complete the
job.
Logs. All of them. ALL OF THEM. I was niave, and didn't know there was
supposed to be a prop log too. Worthless (assorted creative explitives
deleted) buyers agent didn't say a word about it. Prop came off for
annual and the mechanic told me there was evidence of a prop strike.
Nothing in the airframe log about it, no wonder there was no prop log.
The prop TSO is a bigger deal than you might think. The existing
blades may or may not be salvagable at the next overhaul. Several
grand will be in play when all is said and done.
There was an expensive control rods AD that came out a few years ago.
STC fixed it. It will save you $100 at least yearly if it has been
done.
The johnson bar gear is the best LG system in the world IMHO. But
double check the light. It is possible to get it in the -down-
position and NOT locked. You have to jiggle it when this happens, and
more than one person has collapsed a gear because they didn't double
check the light.
Have a hell of a war chest. I'm not kidding. It doesn't take much to
go wrong for that thing to eat you alive. The long term ownership
costs quoted are capitalized over years. But expect 75% of the next
five years costs to show up in years 1 and 2.
I would go with the F model with the johnson bar gear if I was back in
the market. I think that is the best payload/performance/features
combination, with the Super21 being next. Most of the later models are
really 2 place aircraft until you get over the six digit mark.
I like the brittain autopilot. Some folks don't, until they are knee
deep in it and getting behind the curve. Then they are glad they have
it too.
Performance is awesome. People who complain about the ailerons haven't
figured out what the rudder is for yet.
Get a Mooney specific instructor. There are a couple instructors
around the country who train in Mooney's specifically. Don't expect a
brand C driver at your local patch to help you learn all the nuances
of this thing. He will train you WRONG, which is the reason why so
many people whine about how hard they are to land. They fly an orange
like an apple and get miffed when their landings don't squeek.
Figure the insurance companies dual into your numbers. Mine required
20 hours, regardless of the fact that I already had my license. Which
was good, because it does take a bit to learn how to talk to her.
You will become a master of the forward slip, especially when landing
over the proverbial 50 ft tree. She can descend like a meteor with a
little skill. Kindof neat staring at the numbers through the hamburger
window.
-Hope that helps!
-Matt
G.R. Patterson III
Paul wrote:
>
> Please clarify your statements.
>
> What do you mean by "unscrupulous buyer" and that last bit about
> "God's opinion about money".
Unscrupulous means people without scruples (look it up). Someone who attempts to
reduce the price based on a 30-year-old damage history has none. As to the quote,
it's an old Irish saying. Live with it.
Peter Duniho
> Unscrupulous means people without scruples (look it up).
> Someone who attempts to reduce the price based on a
> 30-year-old damage history has none.
Only the seller can control the price. A buyer who tries to
"unscrupulously" control the price will get outbid by someone else.
I can think of ways a buyer can be unscrupulous, but trying to negotiate a
lower price based on information the *seller* provided or which is
documented as true hardly seems unscrupulous to me. The seller is free to
accept or reject the buyer's logic, as they see fit.
Pete
Bob Noel
<NpOeS...@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> wrote:
> > Unscrupulous means people without scruples (look it up).
> > Someone who attempts to reduce the price based on a
> > 30-year-old damage history has none.
>
> Only the seller can control the price. A buyer who tries to
> "unscrupulously" control the price will get outbid by someone else.
>
> I can think of ways a buyer can be unscrupulous, but trying to negotiate a
> lower price based on information the *seller* provided or which is
> documented as true hardly seems unscrupulous to me. The seller is free to
> accept or reject the buyer's logic, as they see fit.
well, it's hardly ethical to base a negotiating point on a
bogus premise.
Christopher Brian Colohan
> well, it's hardly ethical to base a negotiating point on a
> bogus premise.
Really? In which case buyers should just hand over all their money to
sellers?
If a buyer is going to negotiate, they need a reason to ask for a
lower price. It could be a real reason, such as "I don't have that
much money", or it could be a mostly made up reason such as "perhaps I
can get a better deal up the street". But what it really comes down
to is "I don't want to pay you that much, and I don't think anyone
else will either." If the seller disagrees, they can take a risk and
try to sell to someone else.
Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: ch...@colohan.ca PGP: finger col...@cs.cmu.edu
Web: www.colohan.com Phone: (412)268-4751
Bob Noel
Brian Colohan <colo...@cs.cmu.edu> wrote:
> > well, it's hardly ethical to base a negotiating point on a
> > bogus premise.
>
> Really?
yes. Really.
> In which case buyers should just hand over all their money to
> sellers?
wow! how the heck did you go way over there? talk about
non sequiters (or however it's spelled).
>
> If a buyer is going to negotiate, they need a reason to ask for a
> lower price. It could be a real reason, such as "I don't have that
> much money", or it could be a mostly made up reason such as "perhaps I
> can get a better deal up the street". But what it really comes down
> to is "I don't want to pay you that much, and I don't think anyone
> else will either." If the seller disagrees, they can take a risk and
> try to sell to someone else.
if a buyer has a real reason to lower the price, then fine.
If the buyer has a bogus reason, then that cannot be considered
ethical.
And it cuts both ways. If a seller has a real reason for setting
the price, then fine. If the seller has a bogus reason, then that
also cannot be considered ethical.
Christopher Brian Colohan
> > If a buyer is going to negotiate, they need a reason to ask for a
> > lower price. It could be a real reason, such as "I don't have that
> > much money", or it could be a mostly made up reason such as "perhaps I
> > can get a better deal up the street". But what it really comes down
> > to is "I don't want to pay you that much, and I don't think anyone
> > else will either." If the seller disagrees, they can take a risk and
> > try to sell to someone else.
>
> if a buyer has a real reason to lower the price, then fine.
>
> If the buyer has a bogus reason, then that cannot be considered
> ethical.
>
> And it cuts both ways. If a seller has a real reason for setting
> the price, then fine. If the seller has a bogus reason, then that
> also cannot be considered ethical.
If I am going to negotiate for any big ticket item, I am going to do
the following:
a) Decide the maximum I want to pay. This is a hard limit, and I will
not exceed this during negotiations.
b) Decide how much I would _like_ to pay. This is my goal.
c) Arm myself with a big list of reasons not to buy the item in
question. This is my only defense and means of influencing the price.
Items on this list could include "I can get a better price elsewhere",
"another plane is almost as good and has lower risk of problems", "I
don't like the colour so much", or "I could get a really nice car for
this money instead". Some of these reasons may not be reasons for
avoiding purchasing the plane, but they certainly are reasons which
may make me more reluctant to buy at a particular price.
This is basic business negotiation. If you can't walk away from a
deal, you shouldn't be negotiating, because you will be fleeced.
Now you are saying there is a clear distinction between "real reasons"
and "bogus reasons" for wanting a lower price. I disagree, it is not
that clear.
For example, you claim that it is unethical to negotiate a lower price
based properly repaired damage in the distant past. But you agree
that recent damage is a cause for concern, and should result in a
lower price. What is the dividing line between these two cases? How
many years after the repair does using this as negotiating point
transition from being an intelligent buyer to being nitpicky? How
many years does it take to become downright unethical? Drawing a
clear line is hard. Also, different people will draw this line in
different places.
As long as this is ambiguous, it is fair game for price negotiation.
I may want a lower price because I know that when I sell the plane
someone _else_ will want a lower price. If you think the damage
history is no longer relevant, then don't budge in your price. If you
find a buyer who agrees, then you will get a higher price.
Because of this, as an astute buyer, I will be sure to explore any
potential problems during negotiation, if only to allow me to properly
negotiate a fair price. If I bring something up (such as long past
damage history) and the price changes, then perhaps the seller thinks
it is important. If not, then I have to decide how important it is to
me. Not only am I a buyer, but I have to put myself in the shoes of
any buyer who later might buy the plane from me, if only to avoid
getting hosed if I ever have to sell the plane.
If you believe it is unethical to talk about your needs, desires, or
fears (even if they are small or remote) during a business
negotiation, then I suspect you are naive. You certainly won't get
the best price when negotiating as a buyer or a seller...
Bob Noel
Brian Colohan <colo...@cs.cmu.edu> wrote:
[snip]
> Because of this, as an astute buyer, I will be sure to explore any
> potential problems during negotiation, if only to allow me to properly
> negotiate a fair price.
Do you agree that "fair price" is not the same as "best price"?
Christopher Brian Colohan
> In article <ucloelc...@cilento.stampede.cs.cmu.edu>, Christopher
> Brian Colohan <colo...@cs.cmu.edu> wrote:
>
> [snip]
> > Because of this, as an astute buyer, I will be sure to explore any
> > potential problems during negotiation, if only to allow me to properly
> > negotiate a fair price.
>
> Do you agree that "fair price" is not the same as "best price"?
If both parties have equal skills as negotiators then they will be the
same. If not, then the better negotiator will have an advantage -- is
this fair? Not if the better negotiator recognizes the situation and
takes undue advantage of it.
Peter Duniho
news:ihatessppaamm-9E3...@netnews.comcast.net...
> well, it's hardly ethical to base a negotiating point on a
> bogus premise.
It may or may not be a bogus premise. The buyer will tell the seller what
they feel the airplane is worth. For some buyers, damage that occurred 30
years ago may well be a factor in their opinion of what the airplane is
worth. That usually would mean that that buyer would not get to buy that
particular plane, but it doesn't make the buyer unscrupulous.
In any case, the buyer does not have the ability to force a price on the
seller. A seller who accepts a price from a buyer on the basis of
information provided to that seller by the buyer has no reason for
complaint. They could just as easily have verified the information
themselves, rather than relying on the buyer.
Negotiation is an art poorly understood by most. It seems that there are
some people who believe that unless both the buyer and the seller come
completely clean with their ability to pay, desire to sell or buy, and every
tidbit of information that might affect the bid and buy price, some sort of
bad behavior is at work. When in fact, not having those things happen is
just what happens when a couple of strangers haggle.
Nothing unscrupulous about it.
Like I said, there are plenty of ways for a buyer to be unscrupulous, but
trying to talk the price down on the basis of damage history, no matter how
old, just isn't one of them.
Pete
C Kingsbury
> One thing that I don't understand, and hopefully someone here will
> enlighten me, is why it is so sacred to have an aircraft that hasn't had
> accident damage.
Karma. Any 172 that survives 5000 hours of rental use without a good
pranging must have gotten an extra coat of magic pixie dust at the
factory.
> Two of my friends each have aircraft that had accident damage over 30
> years ago.
> So What?
> They have flown beautifully for more than 30 years since the accident -
> so what is the big deal? I absolutely don't get it. - It would be
> different if the accident was 5 flight hours ago - but these are more
> than a major TBO away.
Shh! If everybody starts figuring out that a modest scrape a few
decades ago doesn't make a plane unflyable a lot of the good deals
will disappear.
In Alaska the definition of an salable PA-18 is one on which you can
still make out the registration plate. They'll happily rebuild the
whole plane around it with 90% new parts. But hey, it'll still have a
major damage history.
-cwk.
Gary T. Ciampa
> I am looking into purchasing my own plane... I think that I am pretty
> aware of the costs (as much as a non-owner can be). I would like to
> hear from those of you who have unfortunately have had a bad (expensive
> or otherwise)experience with a plane purchase. I will also post for good
> experiences. Thanks !!
>
> Jon Kraus
> PP-ASEL-IA
> (possible Mooney buyer)
>
Jon,
I guess my experience would fall into the "bad" category. A few items to
reinforce other comments that have been posted. I would recommend a
complete annual inspection, by an *independent authorized service
center*. Ensure you exorcise the airplane and engine throughout every
phase of flight and test every system on the airplane. Finally, ensure
you have sufficient financial resources in reserve, when it comes time
to overhaul or replace the engine.
If I was to do it over again: "Join a club!"
Details:
I searched quite a while for an airplane that was going to meet my
needs. I ended up purchasing a low-time experimental plane with 100
hours STOH (580 hours total). I had the airframe inspected by a
knowledgeable composite specialist, performed a conditional annual
inspection and had an A&P inspect the engine and review the airframe
logs for problems and AD compliance. I flew the airplane and inspected
the systems and engine operation prior to the purchase. NOTE: If I was
to do this over, I would ensure I run the engine at max-RPM for a while
to observe temps and pressures (my flight consisted of mostly cruise RPM
operations)
Two weeks and seven hours after the purchase, on a turn to cross-wind,
gulp, lost the number two cylinder, IO-360, the cylinder head seperated
from the barrel. There was nothing to suggest a problem w/ the cylinder
prior to the failure, engine logs were clean, engine temps and pressures
were all w/in normal limits, and compressions were all 75+ on the
inspection. I'm still adding up the damage, but I was certainly not
mentally or financially prepared for this sudden misfortune.
Good luck,
Gary