OT: Concernign Nazi Technology Theft by the US
Rob Arndt
Theft of German Scientific Research Fueled Post-War Technology Boom
"TO THE VICTORS BELONG THE SPOILS" is an American saying (attributed
to Andrew Jackson) and, regrettably, an occasional American practice
as it was in the case of "the Great Patent Heist of 1946." It was made
official policy in World War II by President Harry Truman's Executive
Order 9604, also known as the "License to Steal," which permitted
agents of the U.S. government to execute the greatest robbery in world
history: the theft of German intellectual (scientific) property. What
technology the Americans and Soviets stole has, in fact, fueled some
of the greatest scientific advances of the modern era.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Daniel W. Michaels
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Now, almost three-quarters of a century after World War II, as the
fear of arrest and punishment for denying the received version of the
causes and consequences of World War II as established by the
victorious Allies diminishes, more and more Germans are investigating
Allied behavior before, during and after the war. Aside from the
"holocaust," which remains immune from critical studies, almost any
aspect of the war, however embarrassing to the victors (e.g., the
strategic bombing campaign), may now be studied without fear of
retribution.
In this new spirit, Friedrich Georg has published a study of Allied
postwar policy regarding the disposition of German intellectual
property, especially the modern and futuristic patents of Nazi
Germany. Georg finds that the Allies, chiefly the Americans and the
Soviets, simply confiscated all patents, designs, inventions etc they
could lay their hands upon - military, industrial and commercial -
regardless of international law or the Geneva Conference. Once in the
United States or Soviet Russia the German inventions were "reinvented"
and stamped "Made in the U.S.A." or "XXXX."
When World war II ended, America's elite determined that the United
States would not lapse back into it's prewar depressed state, but
rather would revitalize its economy and have a first-class military
and industrial establishment. To this end, germany's advanced military
hardware, aeronautical and industrial secrets would simply be
confiscated and transplanted in America.
Even before the war ended, Vannevar Bush, America's scientific
advisor, recommended that the activities of the Combined Intelligence
Operations Subcommittee (CIOS), a joint Anglo_American intelligence-
gathering operation, be expanded to include the exploitation of German
technical information of an industrial nature as well as of strictly
military matters. In August 1945, President Harry Truman, acting under
the adage that "might makes right" issued Executive Order 9604
ordering the release and distribution of confiscated German scientific
and industrial information (technologies, inventions, methods,
processes, equipment etc) to the U.S. civilian economy. It was
literally a license to steal.
President Truman's Executive Order 9604 provided for:
The release and dissemination of certain scientific and industrial
information heretofore or hereafter obtained from the enemy, including
all information concerning scientific, industrial and technological
processes, inventions, methods, devices, improvements and advances
heretofore or herafter obtained by any department or agency of this
government in enemy countries regardless of its origin, or in
liberated areas if such information is of enemy origin or has been
acquired or appropriated by the enemy. (Gimbel 27)
As the American military began to occupy Germany, they initially
concentrated on locating and securing advanced German military
hardware used in the war. In the summer of 1944 the Allied Combined
Chiefs of Staff created military-civilian teams, called the Joint
Intelligence Objectives Committee (JIOC), which was to follow the
invading armies and uncover Germany's military, scientific and
industrial assets. "Field Intelligence Agencies, technical" units
(FIAT units) scoured the countryside for German economic assets. While
the U.S. military had no qualms about confiscating German military
hardware, they hesitated and eventually refused to engage in the
wholesale seizure of German commercial and industrial assets,
considering such action not within their authority. More than a few
honorable U.S. Army officers, led by Gen. Lucius D. Clay, interceded
with civilian occupation policymakers on behalf of the Germans to stop
the looting.
Concerning the legality of the U.S. confiscations of German property,
William G. Downey, chief of the Army's International Law Branch in the
Judge Advocate General's Office, quoting extensively fromThe hague
Convention rules on the seizure of private enemy property, wrote:
It is a generally recognized principle of the international law of war
that enemy private property may not be seized unless it is sisceptible
of direct military use. An army of occupation can only take
possession...of property belonging to the state. (Gimbel 172)
The theft of intellectualproperty is not new, but the extent and
ruthlessness of what the "wannabe" superpowers did in Germany from
1945 to 1948 was unprecedented. The United States and the Soviet Union
literally stole the entire extant store of German patents, designs,
inventions and trademarks. Germans who were not forthcoming in
informing the U.S. Occupation Forces of the existence and location of
such records could be imprisoned, punished and even threatened with
death for "insufficient reporting." To ensure that the Allies would
have an insurmountable head start in exploiting the patents, the
Germans were even forbidden to use or refer to their own inventions
after they were confiscated. The German Patent Office was closed by
the Allies and not reopened for several years. When it did reopen, the
first number assigned was 800,001, indicating that some 800,000
original patents had been looted by the Allies. As a result, in the
immediate postwar years, with Germany prostrate and robbed of its
intellectual property, America and Russia soon emerged as the two
superpowers in a bipolar world.
Konrad Adenauer, the first chancellor of the German Federal Republic,
wrote in his Memoirs:
At the end of 1948 the director of the American office for technical
services, Mr. John Green, gave the press a report on his activities,
which were concerned with the exploitations of German patents and
industrial secrets. What strikes one in this report is the fact that
AMTORG [Moscow's foreign trade organization] was the keenest
purchaser. During one month alone the Russians bought more than 2,000
Wehrmacht reports on secret German weapons, for which they paid
$6,000. According to a statement made by an American expert, the
patents formerly belonging to IG Farben have given the American
chemical industry a lead of at least 10 years. The damage thus caused
to the German economy is huge and cannot be assessed in figures. It is
extraordinarily regrettable that the new German inventions cannot be
protected either, because Germany is not a member of the Patent Union.
Britain has declared that it will respect German inventions regardless
of what the peace treaty may say. But America has refused to issue
such a declaration. German inventors are therefore not in a position
to exploit their own inventions. This puts a considerable brake on
German economic development. (Adenauer 429)
Adenauer denied reports in the British zone of occupation press that
he had characterized Allied measures regarding German patents as sheer
robbery:
I had said nothing of the kind....I had mentioned the view of leading
foreign politicians that the German patents were extremely valuable.
My speech was intended to point out that German inventors still did
not enjoy international protection of their rights and that this
constituted a notable obstacle to German recovery. (147-51)
Years later, in 1953, the chancellor pressed President Dwight
Eisenhower to resolve the question of the use of trademarks owned by
German nationals before the war. Some progress had been made in
restoring trademarks to their previous German owners, and Adenauer
received assurances that no furhter German assets or trademarks would
be confiscated or liquidated and that restitution would be
"considered" at some later date. (That date has not yet arrived.)
The United States also promised to review the situation concerning
German ships, with an eye to possibly returning them to German
control.
Although Americans today find it hard to believe that this country was
once a laggard nation in science and industrial innovations, it was,
until the hostilities broke out in late 1941. America under President
Franklin Roosevelt had failed to pull the country out of the doldrums
of the depression, and while the economy, after having been put on a
wartime basis, was unsurpassed in its volume of production, its
products, including wartime hardware, were inferior to those of the
German war machine. Mass production-quantity rather than quality-
characterized American manufacturing.
Even during the war the United States was not particularly noted for
major breakthroughs in pure science or innovative technologies. The
National Science Foundation brought this deficit in American
capabilities sharply to the attention of the government in a 1946
report indicating, among other factors, that up to that date the
United States had been the home of only four Nobel Prize winners in
chemistry as compared to 37 recipients in Europe, eight U.S. winners
in Physics to 39 in Europe, and six in medicine, to 37 in Europe. Most
of these prizes were awarded to Germans and Austrians.
While military analysts the world over now recognize the superiority
of German World War II hardware, few, however, are aware that German
scientists had done much of the basic scientific pioneer work in the
development of many postwar industrial technologies and products for
civilian use. In consumer goods and medical advances, Germans under
National Socialism were enjoying color TV and color photography a
decade before the American public could buy it's first black-and-white
sets. The Nazi government had modernized the road system in Germany in
the 1930s with the Autobahn, and Volkswagen had begun to produce the
'Beetle' so that all citizens could afford to own an automobile. It
was not until the 1950s, under President Eisenhower, that the United
States undertook the construction of a modern highway system.
German scientists established a link between smoking and cancer in the
1930s, but fierce resistance of the American tobacco companies
prevented the American people from having access to this knowledge
until 20 years after its discovery. They studied the effects of
positively and negatively ionized air on health conditions, developed
performance-enhancing drugs, and introduced other innovative and
therapeutic treatments that are common practice today everywhere.
During the war Germans had also developed a synthetic blood plasma
(capain), a blood liquid substitute (periston), and synthetic
penicillin, 'substitute 3065.'
The revolutionary birth control pill, whose discovery was announced in
the United States in 1951, also had its origins in investtigations
conducted in the laboratories of Gottingen University, Germany, in the
1940s. Chemist Carl Dierassi, who emigrated from Vienna to America
shortly before the war, worked with pharmacologists Gregori Pincus and
John Rock to introduce 'Enovid' on the American market, protected by a
U.S. patent, in the 1960s. (Georg, 157)
Germany, like Japan, was and remains one of the 'have-not' nations,
small in size and wanting in natural resources. The development of
synthetic (ersatz) products of all kinds was essential to german
existence, especially in wartime. Necessity neing the mother of
invention, German chemists undertook to provide substitutes for Mother
Nature's shortcomings. Most sysnthetics served well. Some, like ersatz
coffee (Kaffee-Ersatz), fell short of general acceptance.
One of the largest hauls of classified information harvested by the
Allies came from laboratories and plants of IG Farben, a syndicate
with close American ties that held an almost complete monopoly on
chemical production. Chemistry of course was the foundation for the
creation of most synthetics. The enormous IG Farben Building in
Frankfurt, which housed records of estimable value, was 'miraculously'
spared during World War II bombing orgy, proving that better bombing
accuracy was possible if the Allies had wished it. The vaults of the
Farben Building contained secret industrial information on, among
others, liquid and solid fuels, metaluurgy, synthetic rubber,
textiles, chemicals, plastics, drugs and dyes. Secret formulas were
obtained for over 50,000 dyes, many faster and better than those in
the democracies.
Several U.S. Army officers stationed in the Farben Building after the
war commented that the value of the files and records confiscated
would alone have been sufficient to finance the war.
In the digital world, for example, German prewar and wartime
scientists had been at the cutting edge of important developments,
from the quartz clock, semiconductors, silicon technology and
transistors to the first computer. Among others, German researchers
Herbert F. Matere and Heinrich Welker, working with Zeiss, Siemans and
the Kaiser Willhelm Institute for Silicate Research, were the first to
develop the process for the industrial production of integrated
circuits and transistors.
The culmination of these advances in solid-state physics and digital
instrumentation in Nazi Germany was the wartime development of a
pioneer computer, the Z4. Engineers Konrad Zuse and Helmut Schreyer in
Berlin developed these earliest computers. Zuse's laboratory and
earlier models of his computer, dating from 1937, were destroyed in
bombing raids during the Battle of Berlin, but in the immediate
postwar era Zuse was able to rebuild a fully operational Z4 by 1949,
several months before the debut of the U.S. Eniac. Zuse is also
credited with having developed the first programmable computer
language, 'Plankalkul.' America's Bill Gates met with Zuse in 1995 and
now displays Zuse's picture in his office at Microsoft.
Of foremost importance to all industrial nations, and to Germany in
particular for the war, was the need for a reliable source of energy
to power the factories, heat the homes, and fuel the ships, planes and
vehicles of the nations.
Germany possessed coal but not oil. German chemists met the challenge
quickly and successfully through the development of both the Fischer-
Topische and the hydrogenation methods of converting (liquefying) coal
into oil and, from the oil, to make lubricants and gasoline. In the
course of the war these plants were gradually being moved underground
to protect them from bombing. After the war the Allies confiscated all
patents and records on the design and operation of the hydrogenation
and Fischer-Topische plants and forbade the Germans from using
existing plants or developing new ones, making them dependent on
imported oil. For example, 10% of Marshall Plan had to be used to buy
American oil.
Germany is also said to have invented a distillation process for the
separation of gasoline from oil by the use of audible frequency
vibrations. Self-sufficiency in power generation is essential to the
sovereignty and independence of all nations. So important is the power
factor that the planned Berlin_Baghdad-Basra railroad is said to have
been as decisive for the British declaration of war against Germany in
World War I as the development of the Fischer-Topische and
hydrogenation processes in Germany was for the British declaration of
war in World War II. As long as Britain and France controlled the Near
East oil fields, Germany would never be granted free access, nor would
the Allies want to see Germany gain oil independence through its newly
developed conversion processes.
In the matter of nuclear power, German scientists in Berlin were
making feasibility studies of the possible uses of nuclear energy to
propel ships and submarines as early as 1941. Moreover, the
possibilities of employing nuclear reactors to power land vehicles
were also being explored.
To list just a few of the many technological advances of consumer
interest, German industry developed synthetic mica, synthetic
sapphires, Diesel engines, plastics, rayon-weaving machines, the cold-
extrusion process, UV milk pasteurization, fruit juice sterilization
without heat, food preservation techniques, magnetic tape, infrared
night vision aids, laser guidance and so on. The patents, test models,
and prototypes of all of the above were simply taken and exploited by
their new proprietors.
By the time the war ended, Germany had 138 types of guided missiles in
various stages of development and production as well as every
conceivable experimental and operational guidance and triggering
systems (radar, radio, wire, continuous radio waves, acoustic,
infrared, light beams, and magnetics) for its war effort. The 'rocket'
that launched the United States into superpower realm was German. The
Soviet Union also copied the German weaponry but largely ignored
consumer products.
In May 1955 Paris Agreement, the Allies, aware of the impropreties
involved in their seizure of German industrial secrets, made the
German Federal Government agree to renounce all claims or objections
to Allied actions during the occupation:
The [German] federal government shall in the future raise no
objections against the measures which have been, or will be, carried
out with regard to German external assets or other property, seized
for the purpose of reparation or restitution, or as a result of the
state of war, or on the basis of agreements concluded, or to be
concluded by the Three Powers with any other Allied countries, neutral
countries or former allies of Germany. (Georg 338)
It is clear from the above provision that the Allies, chiefly the
United States, still maintain the right to monitor German industry by
means of the 'Echelon' eavesdropping program and other intellignece
aganecies. The fruits of this ongoing surveillance are sent, among
other destinations, to U.S. and Israeli recipeients. (Georg 345)
It is of course impossible to determine exactly how much the
confiscation, sale, and the industrial exploitation of the German
patents enriched the United States and Israel in dollars. Prof. John
Gimbel, in his book Science, Technology, and Reparations: Exploitation
and Plunder in Postwar Germany, estimates the 'intellectual
reparations' taken by the U.S. and the UK alone amounted to about $10
billion.
In 1952 the publisher Herbert Grabert ventured an estimate of $30
billion. Converted into 2008 dollars these estimates would amount to
hundreds of billions. If the loot taken by the Soviet Union were also
taken into account, the sum would likely approach $1 trillion. An
infusion of this amount into the U.S. economy over a period of years
easily explains U.S. postwar prosperity.
In conclusion, author Friedrich Georg warns that successive countries
in history have for a time enjoyed a leading position in world power,
only to see the baton pass on to competing nations, America too must
guard its vanguard position. In order to ensure its status as the
world's superpower today, the United States will have to maintain an
innovative scientific, engineering and technological base. China,
Georg believes, is currently in the best position to overtake the
United States in that the Chinese have talent, the drive, the
geography and most importantly, thanks to globalization, the wealth
(in U.S. dollars) to buy whatever they require.
***************************************
DANIEL W. MICHAELS was for over 40 years a translator of Russian and
German for the Department of Defense, the last 20 years of which he
was with the Naval Maritime Intelligence Center. He is the author of
various scientific reports and is a contributor of book reviews and
articles to geographical and historical periodicals. Born in New York
City, he now lives in Washington, D.C. area.
Geoffrey Sinclair
news:bc388e7b-ce91-4cfe...@v56g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Uncensored History of World War II
Translation, Robert has decided to copy an article from
http://toolittle-toomuch.blogspot.com/2008/09/reading-around-yes-thats-only-way-to.html
People can read the article there, I will just use a few of the highlights,
> Theft of German Scientific Research Fueled Post-War Technology Boom
Actually the various wartime research programs fuelled the post war
boom in new products, as did the enforced savings made during the war,
things like war bonds were eventually redeemed, and a lot was spent on
the new goods.
> "TO THE VICTORS BELONG THE SPOILS" is an American saying (attributed
> to Andrew Jackson) and, regrettably, an occasional American practice
> as it was in the case of "the Great Patent Heist of 1946." It was made
> official policy in World War II by President Harry Truman's Executive
> Order 9604, also known as the "License to Steal,"
Or license to transfer some of the German wealth from the German
patent holders, usually the large corporations that had made lots of
money supplying the war, to the public domain.
> which permitted
> agents of the U.S. government to execute the greatest robbery in world
> history: the theft of German intellectual (scientific) property.
My but what an exaggeration we have, it rather ignores the amount of
material the Germans took from Europe in WWII for example.
> What
> technology the Americans and Soviets stole has, in fact, fueled some
> of the greatest scientific advances of the modern era.
Ah yes, just ignore non German contributions.
> By Daniel W. Michaels
Let us just say Robert is not going to actually provide much more than
the preferred version of Mr Michaels, not his publications in things
like the Journal for Historical Review. Or the revisionist clarion
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-occupiedgovernments-CIS-financiers.html
Or for that matter swallowing whole the Suvorov fiction that the USSR
was going to attack in mid 1941.
www.library.flawlesslogic.com/suvorov.htm
Or perhaps this statement,
"Indeed the allies very probably outdid the Germans in crimes and
atrocities." from
http://www.gnosticliberationfront.com/allied_war_crimes.htm
> Now, almost three-quarters of a century after World War II, as the
> fear of arrest and punishment for denying the received version of the
> causes and consequences of World War II as established by the
> victorious Allies diminishes, more and more Germans are investigating
> Allied behavior before, during and after the war.
Ah yes the self proclaimed persecuted ones.
> Aside from the
> "holocaust," which remains immune from critical studies, almost any
> aspect of the war, however embarrassing to the victors (e.g., the
> strategic bombing campaign), may now be studied without fear of
> retribution.
And the quotes around the Holocaust rather give the views of the
author away.
What I like about the article is yet again the USA and USSR are
the bad guys and the British the good guys, which continues the
theme of those trying to rewrite WWII and post WWII history.
By the way, the allies ended up as the Government of Germany
post WWII, they had the rights of government when it came
to German property.
> The theft of intellectualproperty is not new, but the extent and
> ruthlessness of what the "wannabe" superpowers did in Germany from
> 1945 to 1948 was unprecedented.
I like the idea the USA and USSR were want to be superpowers
post WWII, little things like the size of the USN to the RN or for
that matter atomic weapons come to mind.
> Although Americans today find it hard to believe that this country was
> once a laggard nation in science and industrial innovations, it was,
> until the hostilities broke out in late 1941.
Little things like mass production which the Germans never really
managed to do until possibly late in the war seem to have been
discounted.
> America under President
> Franklin Roosevelt had failed to pull the country out of the doldrums
> of the depression, and while the economy, after having been put on a
> wartime basis, was unsurpassed in its volume of production, its
> products, including wartime hardware, were inferior to those of the
> German war machine.
Translation folks the P-51, B-29, Essex class aircraft carriers and atomic
weapons were second class hardware. If you believe in fiction.
> Even during the war the United States was not particularly noted for
> major breakthroughs in pure science or innovative technologies. The
> National Science Foundation brought this deficit in American
> capabilities sharply to the attention of the government in a 1946
> report indicating, among other factors, that up to that date the
> United States had been the home of only four Nobel Prize winners in
> chemistry as compared to 37 recipients in Europe, eight U.S. winners
> in Physics to 39 in Europe, and six in medicine, to 37 in Europe. Most
> of these prizes were awarded to Germans and Austrians.
http://nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/lists/all/
> While military analysts the world over now recognize the superiority
> of German World War II hardware,
Actually the world over recognises some of the German hardware
was superior and other hardware was superior for a time.
> In consumer goods and medical advances, Germans under
> National Socialism were enjoying color TV and color photography a
> decade before the American public could buy it's first black-and-white
> sets.
http://www.tvhistory.tv/1935-1941.htm
So there were US TV sets in 1938, so the Germans are supposed to
have colour TV and a Nazi government in 1928.
> Germany, like Japan, was and remains one of the 'have-not' nations,
> small in size and wanting in natural resources.
Just ignore the fact both have economies in the top 8 in the world.
Just ignore German reserves of coal and iron ore, the key raw materials
of 19th century economic development. The Nazis had the problem
light metals and oil became more important in 20th century warfare.
> One of the largest hauls of classified information harvested by the
> Allies came from laboratories and plants of IG Farben, a syndicate
> with close American ties that held an almost complete monopoly on
> chemical production.
Ah so the allies acted in an anti monopoly manner, correct?
> Chemistry of course was the foundation for the
> creation of most synthetics. The enormous IG Farben Building in
> Frankfurt, which housed records of estimable value, was 'miraculously'
> spared during World War II bombing orgy, proving that better bombing
> accuracy was possible if the Allies had wished it.
Yes folks, one building was missed so it must have been
deliberate, just imagine how stupid Farben would have been
to have all those records available for burning in the middle
of a city.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IG_Farben_Building
> Several U.S. Army officers stationed in the Farben Building after the
> war commented that the value of the files and records confiscated
> would alone have been sufficient to finance the war.
The USAAF fuel bill for the 1942 to 1945 period was about
1.2 billion wartime dollars.
Needless to say the financial value of the German devices is
being exaggerated.
> Germany possessed coal but not oil. German chemists met the challenge
> quickly and successfully through the development of both the Fischer-
> Topische and the hydrogenation methods of converting (liquefying) coal
> into oil and, from the oil, to make lubricants and gasoline. In the
> course of the war these plants were gradually being moved underground
> to protect them from bombing.
No, the underground plants idea was a rushed venture from mid 1944,
and did not bear fruit. It did put lots of German labour into building
the new facilities instead of regular repair or improvement work.
> In the matter of nuclear power, German scientists in Berlin were
> making feasibility studies of the possible uses of nuclear energy to
> propel ships and submarines as early as 1941.
Just ignore other people's work.
Oh yes, a discussion on board an RAN warship after the bombs
were used, with one seaman noting a cup full of fuel could drive the
Queen Mary across the Atlantic. This is from a book published
in the 1940's. Using the idea of discussion as a way of claiming.
> Moreover, the
> possibilities of employing nuclear reactors to power land vehicles
> were also being explored.
Now that would have been a fun vehicle to drive.
> To list just a few of the many technological advances of consumer
> interest, German industry developed synthetic mica, synthetic
> sapphires, Diesel engines, plastics, rayon-weaving machines, the cold-
> extrusion process, UV milk pasteurization, fruit juice sterilization
> without heat, food preservation techniques, magnetic tape, infrared
> night vision aids, laser guidance and so on. The patents, test models,
> and prototypes of all of the above were simply taken and exploited by
> their new proprietors.
So much for Bell labs inventing the laser in 1958. Seems like the
usual exaggeration of German achievements. The Germans deserve
better.
By the way the British were doing quite well with infra red detectors
for night fighters pre WWII, they dropped the idea for radar, apart
for the idea of covering the are under minimum radar range.
The RN pre war IFF system used infra red lamps.
And so on.
> By the time the war ended, Germany had 138 types of guided missiles in
> various stages of development and production
It would be fun to list all these missiles, to make this sort of number
must include all back of envelope ideas. Just ignore the sheer insanity
of having that many missiles in prototype form for example, not to
mention the resources required.
> It is of course impossible to determine exactly how much the
> confiscation, sale, and the industrial exploitation of the German
> patents enriched the United States and Israel in dollars.
Now there is a shock, Israel appears as a bad guy.
> Prof. John
> Gimbel, in his book Science, Technology, and Reparations: Exploitation
> and Plunder in Postwar Germany, estimates the 'intellectual
> reparations' taken by the U.S. and the UK alone amounted to about $10
> billion.
By the way the wartime expenditure on the USAAF came to well over
$35 billion wartime dollars. So much for the Farben could pay for WWII
ideas.
By the way in the article the British are supposed not to have taken
any of the German intellectual property. Now they do.
> In 1952 the publisher Herbert Grabert ventured an estimate of $30
> billion. Converted into 2008 dollars these estimates would amount to
> hundreds of billions. If the loot taken by the Soviet Union were also
> taken into account, the sum would likely approach $1 trillion. An
> infusion of this amount into the U.S. economy over a period of years
> easily explains U.S. postwar prosperity.
Yes folks, just ignore for example the real wealth transfers from
Britain and France pre war. Ignore the major social changes in
the USA, ignore the post war reality of the US having much
less damage than other powers, being mobilised for a shorter
period, and things like the post war dominance of the US merchant
fleet as a source of income for example.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
Rob Arndt
http://greyfalcon.us/restored/Gerrev.htm
And here is this:
http://www.xs4all.nl/~aobauer/fiat-cios-bios.htm
Rob
p.s. What great technology did Germany steal from the occupied nations
in WW2 that was put to German use during the war besides the Dutch
Schnorkel and the US Bazooka found in Tunisia (both of which were
modified and improved)??? IIRC, the US got the atomic bomb project
jump-started by the British Tube Alloys documents taken to America in
1940 along with 44 British scientists, the US got uranium from Canada
and captured German stocks after D-Day, the British provided their
best sonar, radar, and centrifugal jet engines to get the US jet
program started, and generally Britain shared all of its secrets
including decryption of enigma (via captured U-boat sample and
Colossus) to America. Before America ever got into the war, a British
jet had flown, the RN had already captured enigma, RAF had bombed
Berlin and had a better overall bomber in WW2 in the ETO (the
Lancaster), had superior radar than the US, and had defeated Germany
in the BoB, sunk the Bismarck, etc... by the end Britain had the only
operational Allied jet fighter, the Tallboys and Grand Slams,
facilitated the D-Day invasion, defeated enigma, carried-out the night
time bomber campaign raids on Germany, executed the dam-buster
raids,and had created a range of Allied special forces emulated by the
Americans. What did Britain get in return from the US? All of it's
secrets stolen, as well as all captured German documentation stolen
too- for war debt. And they did not get to share in the atomic bomb
knowledge even though THEY started that program in 1940! What
ingratitude by the US.
Dan
> Uncensored History of World War II
>
> Theft of German Scientific Research Fueled Post-War Technology Boom
>
> "TO THE VICTORS BELONG THE SPOILS" is an American saying (attributed
> to Andrew Jackson)
Actually it predates the Romans.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
Dan
> Nice try, so defend this:
> http://greyfalcon.us/restored/Gerrev.htm
>
> And here is this:
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~aobauer/fiat-cios-bios.htm
>
> Rob
>
> p.s. What great technology did Germany steal from the occupied nations
> in WW2 that was put to German use during the war besides the Dutch
> Schnorkel and the US Bazooka found in Tunisia (both of which were
> modified and improved)???
Are you suggesting the Nazis wouldn't have "stolen" advanced
technologies, had there been any, from the countries they raped? Are you
suggesting the Allies should have just left Germany alone after the war
and not taken materials and data Germany wasn't going to use anyway? Are
you suggesting the Nazis would have done that had the situation been
reversed?
ohar...@mindspring.com
Rob:
I love the pics you post but stop these silly rants because they make
you seem ridiculous.
Rob Arndt
>
> - Show quoted text -
I defer to your demands for the moment...
Here, check out this new Best of 1918 Page for the WW1 section under
construction at Black Sun:
http://strangewwi.greyfalcon.us/Best%20of%201918.htm
Click Index at bottom for cover page with dedication and some links as
well. I have 4 more sections to complete...
Enjoy,
Rob
Warning: Aviation Content
tankfixer
Rob should be greatful that Trueman didn't implement Morgenthau program
for post war Germany.
--
Meddle ye not in the Affairs of Dragons, for Thou art Crunchy and taste
Goode with Ketchup.
Rob Arndt
> In article <WUHLk.36093$SH5.2...@newsfe08.iad>, B24...@aol.com says...
>
> - Show quoted text -
He couldn't- W Germany was needed as a capitalist nation and NATO ally
against the USSR and WP...or else Europe would have fallen and the
nukes would be going off farther west ;)
Rob
p.s. Germany more than paid for both the Marshall Plan and Berlin
Airlift with all of its stolen technology and intellectual brain-drain
by the US and the West, all of its wind tunnel data and
SS files on the USSR for the CIA...
Dan
But Germany has yet to pay for all the technology, natural resources,
food, manpower.. etc they stole from the occupied nations. Amazing how
you accuse the Allies of "stealing" from the Nazis, but never use the
same terms when referring to what the Nazis took from the nations they
invaded, isn't it?
I consider the Nazi technology you are constantly whimpering about
partial down payment for the damage they did and the costs of putting
them back in their sewer.
Geoffrey Sinclair
> Nice try,
Obviously a much better than nice try, given none of the text
could be refuted, just ignored.
> so defend this:
> http://greyfalcon.us/restored/Gerrev.htm
Lets see now, it starts with someone announcing they have a problem
with people of the Jewish faith. Then tries to claim Germany under
the Nazis presided over possibly the most creative period in world
history. Which is really funny given how much humanity knows has
been discovered in the past few years. Then it goes on to once again
claim the US has simply been coasting on top of German brilliance,
using the same sort of inventions list as Robert's first attempt to push
the junk claim.
The repeating of the same claims is sort of like noting the children's
section of the book store has several reports of cows jumping over
the moon, they are remarkably uniform, down to all ignoring things
like how the cow coped with the atmosphere re-entry heat problem.
Next of course, given the large numbers of German dead in the final
months of the war, comes an attempt to pretend the wonder weapons
were close so the Nazis were right to force the Germans to keep
fighting. Of course this means the author is implying a Nazi victory
was a good thing.
Oh yes, the Germans were not years ahead in jet engine development.
First conspiracy theory, FDR ordered Eisenhower and Patton to
pull back, he did not, Eisenhower decided he was not going to
capture territory he did not have to and which was to be handed
over to Soviet control under the Yalta agreements. Also note when
FDR died.
As for the rockets, Antwerp was on the front line for most of the
time it was in allied hands, a major V2 campaign against it failed
to stop it unloading hundreds of thousands of tons of supplies
each month.
By the way the Speer economic improvements were fuelled
by earlier investments in industry under Todt as well as the
realisation the situation was becoming worse.
It seems the article is designed to use the poor reputation of
one Robert Maxwell, and to make sure he is called Jewish.
Second conspiracy theory, the German scientists did not try for
a nuclear weapon even though they could have. Rather than
they Germans made some mistakes in trying to figure out the
physics and engineering. Plus the sheer size of the required
program.
Third conspiracy theory, U-234 was full of advanced wonder
weapons plans. With obligatory exaggerated quote of importance.
Fourth conspiracy theory, the area 51 junk.
Fifth conspiracy theory, Nordic types create miracles. Apparently
the pyramids are virtually gravity defying, unlike normal piles of
rock called mountains with small caves in them. Along with attempts
to claim important Chinese figures were Nordic types.
I note the allies are supposed to know all about the German
atomic weapons program, when in fact they did not, hence the
efforts against the heavy water production plant.
Oh yes, I like the way the documents created or taken post war
are said to come to thousands of tons then the admission most
gathered dust.
Sixth conspiracy theory, Pearl Harbor.
Next we are treated to a reverend who prefers the Nazis as
they are white Christians, mostly anyway. Oh yes, the reverend
seems to think 20 to 30 million Germans were killed post WWII.
The idea 99% of US PoWs survived in Europe,
"the actual figures, as given by "Army Battle Casualties and
Nonbattle Deaths in World War II, Final Report, 7 December 1941 - 31
December 1946," Department of the Army, Office of the Adjutant
General, are as follows:
Total number of US Army (including USAAF) personnel captured/KIA while
POW (by air bombardment or while trying to escape)/died of wounds or
injuries while POW (wounds suffered in action or while POW)/died of
other causes (nonbattle)/returned to military control were:
Total 124,079/3,102/453/9,098/111,426
ETO 73,759/224/194/532/72,809
MTO 20,182/64/63/44/20,011
PTP 27,465/2,473/182/8,452/16,358
All other theaters 2,673/341/14/70/2,248
Definitions:
Died of other causes (nonbattle) - "other causes" (where have we heard
that phrase before?, but note here that "died" is clearly indicated,
as it is not in the other case) in this case included those who "died
of disease or other nonbattle cause while in a captures, interned or
missing in action status."
Other theaters include Alaska Department, CBI, USASAF (20th AF), and
theater unknown."
Meantime the Reverend claims not 1% of German prisoners
were sent home, instead they were sent as slave labour. Of
course slave labour in WWII means working people to death.
Hence the need to pretend the allies did it.
German prisoners in the US peaked at around 372,000 in May
1945, down to 313,000 in December, and 141 in June 1946.
Meantime in Europe he US peaked at around 3.4 million PoWs
in the third quarter of 1945. Down to 1 million in the first quarter
of 1946, and 72,000 in the final quarter of that year. The French
took about 700,000 PoWs from US camps or took over US
camps with that many prisoners.
The allies had around 8.7 million German prisoners in Europe
in the third quarter of 1945, 4.2 million at the start of 1946,
2.4 million at the start of 1947.
> And here is this:
> http://www.xs4all.nl/~aobauer/fiat-cios-bios.htm
So it is a list of technical reports. Given the unpleasant shock when
the German nerve gasses were discovered by allied teams, plus the
possibility the Japanese had been told about them, the allies were
going to make sure they knew what the Germans had been up to.
Not to mention Stalin having a copy, and Communism's legal ideas
over private property ensured the state would take control there.
The British and the US often compiled their own reports rather than
one joint report. See for example the BBSU versus the USSBS.
> p.s. What great technology did Germany steal from the occupied nations
> in WW2 that was put to German use during the war besides the Dutch
> Schnorkel and the US Bazooka found in Tunisia (both of which were
> modified and improved)???
Yes folks, note how the Germans modify and improve technology but
apparently the rest of the world cannot improve any device people
like Robert claim the Germans invented.
Try this, when the US Army moved to recruit local French labour in
the second half of 1944 they found the workers were suffering from
the effects of malnutrition. When the allies invaded southern France
they deliberately included supplies of civilian clothing, since they knew
how short of clothing the population was. And conditions for civilians
normally became worse the further east in Nazi controlled Europe
you went, the exception being Germany of course.
Now add the direct requisitions of supplies which were not paid for.
Now add the rigging of exchange rates in Germany's favour for when
payment was made.
Now add the Germans charged occupied countries a fee for the
privilege of having an occupying army on their soil. The Japanese
approved of this, their demands for payment of similar fees for
French Indo China went along with the occupation.
> IIRC, the US got the atomic bomb project
> jump-started by the British Tube Alloys documents taken to America in
> 1940 along with 44 British scientists,
And a lot of scientists that had to flee Europe. Who initially helped
push the British project.
> the US got uranium from Canada
> and captured German stocks after D-Day,
Newsflash, the German uranium was largely the Belgian stockpile
captured in 1940.
> the British provided their best sonar, radar,
It is probable the RN sonars were normally more advanced than the
USN ones.
As for Radar given so many sets for the various conditions and the
joint development work the reality is some were joint, some US sets
were better, some British sets were better, at a given time.
> and centrifugal jet engines to get the US jet
> program started, and generally Britain shared all of its secrets
> including decryption of enigma (via captured U-boat sample and
> Colossus) to America.
You are aware the US shared its code breaking results with the
British, things like the Japanese codes? You are aware of the
US help in cracking the 4 rotor Enigma?
> Before America ever got into the war, a British
> jet had flown,
This is called the fruits of ramping up military research and development
earlier, and having plenty of reasons for doing so.
Meantime the British admitted US civilian transports and airliners
had moved ahead of British designs.
> the RN had already captured enigma,
You are aware capturing an Enigma machine was not a gateway
to its secrets, the Germans expected machines to be captured?
> RAF had bombed Berlin
Perhaps it could be pointed out the US was not supposed to go
around bombing nations it was at peace with?
> and had a better overall bomber in WW2 in the ETO (the
> Lancaster),
The answer to the above is better is mission dependent, and
you need to specify a date.
> had superior radar than the US, and had defeated Germany
> in the BoB, sunk the Bismarck, etc... by the end Britain had the only
> operational Allied jet fighter, the Tallboys and Grand Slams,
Actually the P-80 was in service, but not rushed.
> facilitated the D-Day invasion,
You might want to note where the majority of the landing craft were
built during WWII, and note the US modified the UK ideas as well
as supplying their own.
> defeated enigma,
It was back and forth in the code war until mid war.
> carried-out the night
> time bomber campaign raids on Germany,
You do know the US bombed by night and the RAF by day as
well as their main efforts?
> executed the dam-buster raids,
One raid, well after the US was in the war, by the looks of it the
Lancasters used were mark III, with US built Merlins.
> and had created a range of Allied special forces emulated by the
> Americans.
Too many, remember the records of the failures.
> What did Britain get in return from the US?
Lend lease shipments to the British Empire came to $30 billion
dollars, less around $6 to $8 billion dollars in reverse lend lease.
Given the majority of the Commonwealth countries managed to
come close to a balance between aid given and received the
majority of the nett lend lease went to Britain, most of which was
written off by the US post WWII.
That do for a start?
> All of it's
> secrets stolen, as well as all captured German documentation stolen
> too- for war debt.
You do know about things like the USN fire control systems that
went the other way? The US leading edge technology transferred?
> And they did not get to share in the atomic bomb
> knowledge even though THEY started that program in 1940! What
> ingratitude by the US.
Robert, if you are so concerned the US is a country of thieves head for
North Korea, minimal street crime there. Or try Zimbabwe, given the
ZANU-PF party admirers of Hitler.
tankfixer
@i18g2000prf.googlegroups.com>, teut...@aol.com says...
> On Oct 22, 9:02?pm, tankfixer <paul.carr...@gmail.comm> wrote:
> > In article <WUHLk.36093$SH5.2...@newsfe08.iad>, B24...@aol.com says...
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > > Rob Arndt wrote:
> > > > Nice try, so defend this:
> > > >http://greyfalcon.us/restored/Gerrev.htm
> >
> > > > And here is this:
> > > >http://www.xs4all.nl/~aobauer/fiat-cios-bios.htm
> >
> > > > Rob
> >
> > > > p.s. What great technology did Germany steal from the occupied nations
> > > > in WW2 that was put to German use during the war besides the Dutch
> > > > Schnorkel and the US Bazooka found in Tunisia (both of which were
> > > > modified and improved)???
> >
> > > technologies, had there been any, from the countries they raped? Are you
> > > suggesting the Allies should have just left Germany alone after the war
> > > and not taken materials and data Germany wasn't going to use anyway? Are
> > > you suggesting the Nazis would have done that had the situation been
> > > reversed?
> >
> > Rob should be greatful that Trueman didn't implement Morgenthau program
> > for post war Germany.
> >
>
> against the USSR and WP...or else Europe would have fallen and the
> nukes would be going off farther west ;)
Best you know that Rosevelt had already approved it then...
>
> Rob
>
> p.s. Germany more than paid for both the Marshall Plan and Berlin
> Airlift with all of its stolen technology and intellectual brain-drain
> by the US and the West, all of its wind tunnel data and
> SS files on the USSR for the CIA...
Best you ask a German if he would have prefereed the Soviets had taken
over...