Corporate Capitalism is not democracy - rec.aviation.military

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Message from discussion Corporate Capitalism is not democracy
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NNTP-Posting-Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 11:30:04 -0600
From: Orval Fairbairn <orfairba...@earthlink.net>
Newsgroups: sci.military.naval,alt.war.vietnam,soc.veterans,rec.aviation.military,us.military.army
Subject: Re: Corporate Capitalism is not democracy
Organization: Fairbairn Associates
References: <1af18992-360f-47af-93c1-412288735cb7@googlegroups.com> <k6d04201ule@news3.newsguy.com> <ncednVVMhp19QhfNnZ2dnUVZ_vGdnZ2d@supernews.com> <k6f1km0mj3@news3.newsguy.com> <K5udnSo3qsQYjBDNnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@supernews.com> <m5WdnZChy9w94xLNnZ2dnUVZ_rydnZ2d@supernews.com> <lLSls.15901$WP2.14009@newsfe20.iad> <k7953g$abh$1@dont-email.me> <orfairbairn-2EEA7C.16154805112012@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net> <k7c6dl$knf$1@dont-email.me> <orfairbairn-6FE3AF.21310106112012@70-3-168-216.pools.spcsdns.net> <k7cqdh$33c$1@dont-email.me>
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Date: Wed, 07 Nov 2012 12:30:04 -0400
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In article <k7cqdh$33...@dont-email.me>,
 "Jeffrey Hamilton" <bberesf...@cogeco.ca> wrote:

> Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> > In article <k7c6dl$kn...@dont-email.me>,
> > "Jeffrey Hamilton" <bberesf...@cogeco.ca> wrote:
> >
> >> Orval Fairbairn wrote:
> >>> In article <k7953g$ab...@dont-email.me>,
> >>> Daryl <dh...@nospami70west3.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 11/5/2012 10:33 AM, Mark Test wrote:
> >>>>> "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D."  wrote in message
> >>>>> news:m5WdnZChy9w94xLNnZ2dnUVZ_rydnZ2d@supernews.com...
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D. wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> a425couple wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D." <d...@coldine.edu> wrote in message...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> a425couple wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> "Eris" <vith...@gmail.com> wrote in message...
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Corporate Capitalism is not democracy
> >>>>>>>>>> It isn't capitalism either. It's a corporatocracy
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Sigh, Capitalism is our economic system, with property
> >>>>>>>>> rights and freedom of choices as to what we get, and who we
> >>>>>>>>> get it from (free enterprise).
> >>>>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capitalism
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> As usual you leave out the ugliness of Capitalism.  e.g. the
> >>>>>>>> vast numbers
> >>>>>>>> of people who are left in the worst poverty
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Pure nonsense!
> >>>>>>> The "worst poverty" is clearly when large numbers of
> >>>>>>> the population starve to death.
> >>>>>>> That was clearly in the years before corporations helped
> >>>>>>> capitalism develop effective trade,
> >>>>>>> or in areas of the world that in more modern times
> >>>>>>> shunned capitalism.
> >>>>>>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wars_and_anthropogenic_disasters_
> >>>>>>> by
> >>>>>>> _d
> >>>>>>> eath_toll#Famine
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> China 1959-61, between 15 and 43 million.
> >>>>>>> USSR 1932-39, between 6 and 8 million.
> >>>>>>> USSR 1929-1922, between 5 and 10 million.
> >>>>>>> Starving to death IS clearly the "worst poverty".
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Again, as usual you completely ignore the ugliness of
> >>>>>> Capitalism, especially
> >>>>>> South of the Rio Grande down through South America.  Son your
> >>>>>> own goofy
> >>>>>> website says up to 100 million killed by the [Capitalist]
> >>>>>> colonization of
> >>>>>> America, and if you want to play this game you need to include
> >>>>>> events
> >>>>>> like WW1, up to 65 million, as Capitalism certainly influenced
> >>>>>> the start
> >>>>>> of that war, and *certainly* the 7 million killed in the
> >>>>>> Vietnam war and
> >>>>>> the millions killed in Vietnam before 1945 were all caused by
> >>>>>> ugly Capitalism.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Again, Capitalism is fine if it is well controlled by good
> >>>>>> socialist
> >>>>>> laws like anti-monopoly laws, minimum wage, 8 hour days, child
> >>>>>> labor laws, workers comp insurance, etc. but your "free"
> >>>>>> Capitalism
> >>>>>> is the ugliest as it leads to business owners ruthlessly cheating
> >>>>>> people out of a livable wage, and uncontrolled growth (like a
> >>>>>> cancer),
> >>>>>> as Capitalism *always* needs new markets to exploit, so the
> >>>>>> Capitalists
> >>>>>> move on to exploit elsewhere leaving blight and poverty in
> >>>>>> their path.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> So don't forget to add in every child who died of malnutrition,
> >>>>>> or infant deaths caused by inadequate health care, etc,
> >>>>>> *caused* by
> >>>>>> the greedy Capitalists...in your silly dishonest numbers game.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I add, the OP (Eris) is correct...Capitalism is an economic
> >>>>> concept and
> >>>>> democracy is a governing concept...neither is necessary for the
> >>>>> other.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> and why are we capitalizing Capitalism but not democracy?
> >>>>> ;-)
> >>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------
> >>>>> Perhaps because we are a Republic?  Perhaps because capitalism
> >>>>> supports the
> >>>>> individual, whereas democracy and government limits the
> >>>>> individual...?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny
> >>>>> individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities."
> >>>>> --- Ayn Rand
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Capitalism, if use properly results in the better life of all
> >>>> involved.  capitalism as it is today (not the small case) is
> >>>> where you trash your own country to make more money and power for
> >>>> just yourself.  Screw the regular people.
> >>>>
> >>>> Democracy lasts about 10 minutes as a community grows.  It
> >>>> outgrows it very quickly is is replaced by either a flavor of
> >>>> mixed Republic or a mixed Socialist Government.  Usually, it's
> >>>> healthy to borrow from both.  It's a balancing act.  The US has
> >>>> gone from a Democracy that lasted about 10 minutes to a Republic
> >>>> for just the Rich While Landowners, to women voting, Blacks
> >>>> voting, Polling Stations that used bully boys to prevent Non
> >>>> White Rich Landowners from voting, and more.  If you are in a
> >>>> country that is a Democracy then you don't live in the United
> >>>> States past the 10 minutes it was one for just the Rich White
> >>>> Landowners.
> >>>>
> >>>> What you do live in, right now, is a mix of Republic and
> >>>> Corporate controlled Government.  The Republic side is good but
> >>>> the Corporate side is extremely bad.  Corporations should not be
> >>>> allowed in Politics like they are today.  What we have today is
> >>>> what I like to call Corporate Republic.  Correct that and I have
> >>>> no trouble with the policies of the Right.  Unfortunately, the
> >>>> Corporation have purchased out Government from the local to the
> >>>> Federal.  Had a Republican stand up and say they are going to
> >>>> correct this and actually go and do it, then they have my vote.
> >>>> Until then, their lack of FACT CHECKING and outright lying makes
> >>>> me not vote for them.
> >>>>
> >>>> I didn't move towards the left, the right moved away from me.  If
> >>>> we were in the Truman Time, I would be a Right Wing Republican.
> >>>> But not today.  Especially with the way you children are operating.
> >>>
> >>> By the same token as above, we should not allow unions to have a
> >>> political say, nor should we allow public employee unions, since
> >>> they, through their PACs and their own resources can control those
> >>> with whom they negotiate salaries and benefits.
> >>
> >> Unions are nothing more than an middleclass workers attempt to have
> >> a say ! The ..."Right To Work States"movement ... are an argmanent
> >> against such ! So why should Unions _not_ have a say ?
> >>
> >>   cheers....Jeff
> >
> > Unions have evolved into businesses themselves, often losing sight of
> > their original intent, which was to represent the membership. When
> > union bosses pull in 7-figure salaries plus benefits,
> 
> Would you be able to supply some cites for these seven figure salaries 
> you're speaking of, Orval ?

OK -- six figure salaries, rather than 7+

From http://www.unionfacts.com/union/AFL-CIO

         AFL-CIO:
Members:    11,601,104
Assets:  $100,553,700.00
Employees:  448

President:  $293,750.00
Exec VP:    $260,320.00
Sec/Treas:  $253,117.00

Crime & Corruption:
criminal charges        4 
embezzlement charges    6 
guilty pleas            5
indictments             3 
officials sentenced     3

Political Contributions:
Democrats: $53,872,558.00 (0.9246)
Republicans: $4,221,471.00 (0.0725)


         National Education Assn.
http://www.unionfacts.com/union/National_Education_Association
Members:   3,167,412
Assets: $223,413,157.00
Employees: 1,018

President: $492,484.00
Exec VP:   $460,060.00
Sec/Treas: $371,904.00

Crime & Corruption:
criminal charges        61 
criminal convictions     7
embezzlement charges    61
guilty pleas            55
indictments             27 
officials sentenced     33

Political Contributions:
Democrats: $42,332,386.00 (0.7109)
Republicans: $17,019,773.00 (0.2858)


         SEIU:
http://www.unionfacts.com/union/Service_Employees
Members:  1,921,768
Assets:$246,060,289.00
Employees: 873
President: $290,334.00 
Exec VP:   $242,138.00
Sec/Treas: $330,503.00

Crime & Corruption:
criminal charges        20 
criminal convictions     1
embezzlement charges    22
guilty pleas            24
indictments              6 
officials sentenced     12

Political Contributions:
Democrats: $142,750,904.00 (0.8939)
Republicans: $16,790,785.00 (0.1051)

       American AMERICAN FEDERATION OF STATE COUNTY & MUNICIPAL Employees
http://www.unionfacts.com/union/American_Federation_of_State_County_%26_M
unicipal_Employe

Members:          1,423,584
Assets:        $109,224,928.00
Employees:           662

General Counsel:           $536,035.00
President:                 $512,369.00 
DIRECTOR, ORGANIZING & FI  $330,142.00
Sec/Treas:                 $433,886.00

Crime & Corruption:
criminal charges        21 
criminal convictions     1
embezzlement charges    50
guilty pleas            49
indictments             11 
officials sentenced     28

Political Contributions:
Democrats: $75,727,114.00 (0.7415)
Republicans: $26,057,113.00 (0.2551)

You can look up the stats on your favorite union at: 
http://www.unionfacts.com/cuf

It is obvious that the unions are major businesses and act as such and 
are major players in politics, rather than simple "nothing more than an 
middleclass workers attempt to have a say."


> 
>  it a rather
> > hard pill to swallow that "Unions are nothing more than an
> > middleclass workers attempt to have a say," rather than another bull
> > elephant in the fight to trample the ground.
> 
> Have you ever seen what happens to workers who don't have Union 
> representation , Orval ?

I used to be one -- it didn't seem to make much difference. I have also 
witnessed union excesses regarding work rules and who can do what. For 
instance, if you are an exhibitor at the Orlando Convention Center, you 
have to hire an electrician to plug your computer into a power outlet.

Clearly, unions have served some very important purposes - like 
eliminating payment in company scrip, usable only at the Company Store, 
legitimate health and safety concerns, child labor -- to name a few.

Excesses have been featherbedding rules on railroads, the above-cited 
stuff requiring unnecessary "skills," etc. 
> 
> The bull elephant trampling the ground is a good analogy, because that's 
> what management can easily do and THAT is why workers need unions.
> 

Yes -- I have always said that the presence of a union is an indicator 
of failed management. As an airline pilot friend put it: "The only thing 
worse than having a union is having the conditions that require it."
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