?about downed pilot survival
CW3 K. Barker
Why don't we stuff our flightsuits with two weeks worth of food? Because
everything in life is a tradeoff. In a survival scenerio like Scott
O'Grady was in, the priorities were: evasion, water, everything else,
THEN food. When you're trying to evade, carrying ten pounds extra weight
around will just slow you down and tire you out sooner and just may make
the difference between getting away or getting captured. It's physically
impossible to carry around two weeks worth of water in a flightsuit so
we carry plastic bags and find it locally or distill it. The survival
school teaches you how to find "edibles" _so that you don't have to pack
your food around_. When you're already wearing forty pounds or more of
flight gear when walking out to your aircraft you have to draw the line
somewhere, and not carrying around two week's worth of food is the
easiest place to start.
Dave Stein
Something occurs to me. When the whole Scott O'Grady story went down (no
pun intended), we heard alot about pilot survival schools, eating ants
and twigs, etc. Even O'Grady said he had to hunt for food, eat bugs,
etc. My question is why don't pilots, especially those in true combat or
dangerous peace-keeping situations, stuff all those hundreds of pockets
in their flight suits with PowerBars, Clif bars, etc? In a real
emergency sit. 7 bars could last you 2 weeks or so.
--
.
Calcap40
1-It will never happen to me.
2-pockets (at least mine on SAR missions have Strobe, knife, firestarter,
pencil flares ,flashlight, survival manual, a couple of 4 oz water packs, and
1 high calorie survival bar. NOTE: This is a backup to my vest and survival
pack.
3-WATER, not food is critical for survival. Most people can go 2 weeks safely
without food but need lots of water daily in ANY temperature zone.
4-Combat pilots need to worry about evasion, not eating. Even O'grady focused
on evading.
5-When I fly civilian I carry a survival weapon, not to kill animals but to
signal since a gunshot carries farther than a human voice.
Good question, though
Matt
These opinions are mine, and do not represent CAP or Air Force views.
>Subject: ?about downed pilot survival
>From: Dave Stein <dave....@oakweb.com>
>Date: Wed, Feb 18, 1998 08:44 EST
>Message-id: <34EAE5...@oakweb.com>
Calcap40
> I've recently seen a water filter that allow you to drink
>through it like a straw - it's a mico-pore filter too, so it gets all
>the major bad germs like Giardia et al.
>
> Seems like just the ticket for survival use ! Let's face it -
>water is HEAVY when you're packing it !
>
>
>
>
Yes. I carry one in my survival pack. The flight suit stuff is the 3rd layer of
supplies- Flight suit then vest then pack. I wear my suit so if I get out of
the airframe I have something. Survival vest is over seat so I can grab it as I
egress. I do not wear becuse civilian type aircraft that we fly are too small,
and survival pack is in back seat across from me so I can grab it quickly. We
also have 2 quarts of water on a web belt loose around the waist. Everything
is added to the weight and balance.
Matt
James Sanchez
Dave Stein wrote:
> Something occurs to me. When the whole Scott O'Grady story went down (no
> pun intended), we heard alot about pilot survival schools, eating ants
> and twigs, etc. Even O'Grady said he had to hunt for food, eat bugs,
> etc. My question is why don't pilots, especially those in true combat or
> dangerous peace-keeping situations, stuff all those hundreds of pockets
> in their flight suits with PowerBars, Clif bars, etc? In a real
> emergency sit. 7 bars could last you 2 weeks or so.
The survival gear a fighter pilot has does include food and water, but not
enough for a week! Ever go camping? Carrying more than a small amount of
food is not practical for a combat pilot.
--
*************
James Sanchez
san...@null.net
http://home.interpac.net/~sanchez
Ed Rasimus
Dave Stein <dave....@oakweb.com> wrote:
> My question is why don't pilots, especially those in true combat or
>dangerous peace-keeping situations, stuff all those hundreds of pockets
>in their flight suits with PowerBars, Clif bars, etc? In a real
>emergency sit. 7 bars could last you 2 weeks or so.
There are a lot of choices about what you carry into combat. Start by
covering most of your legs and waist with a G-suit, covering those
flight suit pockets (you wouldn't put anything in since the squeeze of
the G-suit would hurt you and ruin the item.)
Then add a Combat Edge vest, an LPU (maybe incorporated in the
ejection harness), and a survival vest with its pockets.
Some things you are probably carrying include two (or more) survival
radios, an extra radio battery, a couple of day/night flares, a
pen-gun flare kit, a gun and some ammo, a knife, a mirror, a medical
kit, some marker panels, a medical kit, a flashlight, maybe a
blood-chit and a water bottle or two.
Most survival experiences are short term and the most demanding
nutritional need immediately after ejection is water, not food.
Ed Rasimus *** Peak Computing Magazine
Fighter Pilot (ret) *** (http://peak-computing.com)
*** Ziff-Davis Interactive
*** (http://www.zdnet.com)
Bill Kambic
Dave, most do carry some personal rations, but space is really quite
limited. Wearing a g-suit (like the tacair guys do) precludes the use
of pockets underneath (unless you want "Hershey" permanantly tatooed on
some part of your body). Even if you are in a non-g-suit community
(like P-3's) there are still limits. If you put too much into the
pockets you begin to approach the "teddy bear" look.
Once you get past the GI stuff, what to carry is personal. In most
situations, water is much more important than food. You can last a long
time on twigs and leaves, but relatively few hours without water. And a
case of "milosovich's revenge" can be just as debilitating as a wound.
Personally, I look for a couple of extra cans of H20 and fresh batteries
in the PRC.
Bill Kambic, CDR, USNR(RET)
Bright Star Farm, Kingston, TN
http://www.geocities.com/heartland/hills/1816
Believer in the Great Ambiguous Blessing:
"Dear Lord, for what we are about to receive, may we be truly thankful."
agr...@kosone.com
On Wed, 18 Feb 1998 05:44:23 -0800, Dave Stein <dave....@oakweb.com>
wrote:
>Something occurs to me. When the whole Scott O'Grady story went down (no
>pun intended), we heard alot about pilot survival schools, eating ants
>and twigs, etc. Even O'Grady said he had to hunt for food, eat bugs,
>etc. My question is why don't pilots, especially those in true combat or
>dangerous peace-keeping situations, stuff all those hundreds of pockets
>in their flight suits with PowerBars, Clif bars, etc? In a real
>emergency sit. 7 bars could last you 2 weeks or so.
>--
>.
What kind of equipment do military pilots carry with them in the air
in their kits. I'm assuming that the vests you wear in flight are
survival kits. In an air crash, what you have on you when you leave
the aircraft is usually all you have to keep you alive, military or
civie. I'm trying to put together a survival kit for myself, and what
better model to work off of? Any input is greatly apreciated, and may
save the lives of fellow pilots some day. Thanks in advance.
Aaron A. Grubin
a_grubin@ hotmail.com
CDB100620
>1-It will never happen to me.
>2-pockets (at least mine on SAR missions have Strobe, knife, firestarter,
>pencil flares ,flashlight, survival manual, a couple of 4 oz water packs,
>and
>1 high calorie survival bar. NOTE: This is a backup to my vest and survival
>pack.
Was shot down twice during WWII. The last time, over Ormoc Bay, PI, was on
the run for 2 weeks. Survival gear was in the life raft, which was shredded by
AAA and sank out of sight as soon as I tried to inflate it. The life vest was
holed, too. I stripped off everything, including .45 and boots to stay afloat.
When I got to shore about 15 hours later, what I desperately wanted was water.
I drank surface water and ended up with dysentary. Mosquitos gave me dengue
fever and malaria. I acquired various internal parasites. I lost about three
pounds a day during the time I was on the ground.
Were I facing that situation today, I would want one of those mini water
purifiers, a small folding knife with a lockable handle, and a couple of
bottles of DEET. I might tape them to my calf so that I wouldn't lose them
during the bailout/landing fun. The most important thing to have, however, is
faith in yourself. You have to believe that you will come out of it okay,
that, somehow, you will find a way to survive and get home. If you have that
faith, you can keep your brain functioning, keep your body moving--and make it.
Red Rider
> Dave Stein <dave....@oakweb.com> wrote:
> My question is why don't pilots, especially those in true combat or
>dangerous peace-keeping situations, stuff all those hundreds of pockets
>in their flight suits with PowerBars, Clif bars, etc? In a real
>emergency sit. 7 bars could last you 2 weeks or so.
WATER! WATER! WATER! You will drink a gallon just to stop the adrenalin
rush. A couple of high energy bars, a knife, a couple of radios, extra
batteries, a small flashlight, a mirror, a sheet of plastic for collecting
water/shelter, water purfacation tabs, flares, signal panals mirror,
firestarter, medical supplies, and finally the modern pilot needs to
include Tylenal for those aches and pains to keep going.
Although there were exceptions, most shootdowns over NV were over one way
of the other in a matter of hours. You were either rescued of captured. For
the majority a firearm was a liability instead of an aid. If you used it
against the NV it just pissed them off more and unlike the movies the user
would die instead of fighting off the bad guy. Offhand I can only recall
two incidents where a pistol enabled the downed avaitor to be rescued. And
in one of those the he had a second pistol that was hidden which he used to
shoot the guys trying to capture him, enabling him to be rescued at the
last second.
There were long discussions that many injuries were caused by carrying too
much equipment which had a tendency to come loose when the avaitor ejected.
Everyone was in one of two groups, those that carried everything they
could, and those that carried the minimum.
The real problem was that there was no choice in most cases as when to
eject. Speed, altitude, attitude, and timing were not always choices.
Red Rider
(J-V-B) We Shoot For Accuracy
tria...@gibralter.net
"I may have a bad memory, but I have 35 years of diaries, log books and
notes".
Carlo Kopp
CDB100620 wrote:
>
> Was shot down twice during WWII. The last time, over Ormoc Bay, PI, was on
> the run for 2 weeks. Survival gear was in the life raft, which was shredded by
> AAA and sank out of sight as soon as I tried to inflate it. The life vest was
> holed, too. I stripped off everything, including .45 and boots to stay afloat.
> When I got to shore about 15 hours later, what I desperately wanted was water.
> I drank surface water and ended up with dysentary. Mosquitos gave me dengue
> fever and malaria. I acquired various internal parasites. I lost about three
> pounds a day during the time I was on the ground.
> Were I facing that situation today, I would want one of those mini water
> purifiers, a small folding knife with a lockable handle, and a couple of
> bottles of DEET. I might tape them to my calf so that I wouldn't lose them
> during the bailout/landing fun. The most important thing to have, however, is
> faith in yourself. You have to believe that you will come out of it okay,
> that, somehow, you will find a way to survive and get home. If you have that
> faith, you can keep your brain functioning, keep your body moving--and make it.
What were you flying when you got shot down ? I don't recall you
mentioning this in previous postings - BTW I enjoy reading your posts.
Thanks,
Carlo
FNG1970
food not a major factor.
in a event of ejection pilot is 50% likely to break a bone in one of the limbs
food is only important if on the ground for long time
keeping from becoming p.o.w is more important, need to move
SteveM8597
As an F-4 crewmember, I had the privilege of attending water, land, artic,
jungle, ans sea survival schools. Fortuantely never had to use what I learned
for real. One consistent lesson in all the schools was that you really didn't
need food for a couple of weeks. You needed water as soon as you got out of
your chute. And guns were basically only signalling devices. It was pretty
unlikely you would be on the ground long enough for hunger to become a problem.
Steve
Jim
While my survival training is non-aviation (mountain search and rescue)
it offers good parralles. And survival is survival.
There is a thing called the rule of threes:
Three minutes without air - you die
Three hours without shelter - you die (winter)
Three days without water - you die
Three weeks without food - you get really hungry.
Water is the single most (only) important consumable.
True, in order to maintain strength you need calories, but it's amazing
what adrenaline will do. And you body will make calories (out of you).
The posing on being shot down in WWII was great, and to the point. I
would also like to point out that all of the dieseses he contracted by
drinking bad water were curable (and a hell of a lot easier than
dehydration). If you are really concerned about the quality of your
water supply (and you should not be paranoid about it) try iodine
tables. It's smaller, lighter, and it works.
Jim
ch1...@earthlink.net
Dave Stein wrote:
>
> I think you missed my point. I know you can't carry two weeks worth of
> food, that's why I'm asking why not carry two weeks worth of PowerBars
> or the like, they weigh 2.25 Oz. each. That's just under a pound for two
> weeks. Even carrying 2 or 3 at 7 Oz. seems like a good trade-off to keep
> your energy up for movement and evasion.
>
> --
> .
Hey Dave,
I'd trade 100lbs of anything-you-want 'survival gear' for a chance to
stay with (some portion of) an occasionally blip-kicked seat equipped
with telescoping parawings somewhere between a K-36's balance arms and
the solar panels of a satellite.
You come out of a jet that may be disintegrating in rapid gyrations and
into an airstream which may be transonic or above and assuming you're
not already riddled with pilot-kill fragments from a dedicated weapon or
a golden hit; you will still flail around so much that your chances of
'escape and evasion' on the end of a visually significant long-chute
ride right over the target area seems utterly minimal to me.
GPS auto-fly for even 20nm to a premission plotted CSAR pickup with
helos already enroute from an offset loiter and they can at least ship
home the cripple or remains to mamma while the (visual) signature should
still be relatively tiny and so secondary groundfire risk minimal.
Just an IMO:)
Dave Stein
John Hairell
In article <34eb0adf...@news.rmi.net> thu...@rmii.com (Ed Rasimus) writes:
[stuff snipped]
>There are a lot of choices about what you carry into combat. Start by
>covering most of your legs and waist with a G-suit, covering those
>flight suit pockets (you wouldn't put anything in since the squeeze of
>the G-suit would hurt you and ruin the item.)
>Then add a Combat Edge vest, an LPU (maybe incorporated in the
>ejection harness), and a survival vest with its pockets.
>Some things you are probably carrying include two (or more) survival
>radios, an extra radio battery, a couple of day/night flares, a
>pen-gun flare kit, a gun and some ammo, a knife, a mirror, a medical
>kit, some marker panels, a medical kit, a flashlight, maybe a
>blood-chit and a water bottle or two.
>Most survival experiences are short term and the most demanding
>nutritional need immediately after ejection is water, not food.
Ed,
I'm surprised at you. Being a retired fighter pilot, I thought you would
have remember the condoms...
John Hairell (jhai...@pop200.gsfc.nasa.gov or guar...@erols.com)
kb
John Hairell wrote:
> Ed,
> I'm surprised at you. Being a retired fighter pilot, I thought you would have remember the condoms...
Fighter pilots have told me condoms are not desirable when you're
partner is a sheep--they generate too much static electricity or
something...
jk
Ed Rasimus
jhai...@nospam.pop200.gsfc.nasa.gov (John Hairell) wrote:
>Ed,
>
>I'm surprised at you. Being a retired fighter pilot, I thought you would
>have remember the condoms...
>
The question was about survival equipment after ejection, not normal
routine supplies.
saa...@ibm.net
Ed Rasimus wrote:
>
> jhai...@nospam.pop200.gsfc.nasa.gov (John Hairell) wrote:
>
> >Ed,
> >
> >I'm surprised at you. Being a retired fighter pilot, I thought you would
> >have remember the condoms...
> >
> The question was about survival equipment after ejection, not normal
> routine supplies.
>
> Ed Rasimus
Is that a funny or is that a funny. Holding my sides.
:-)
Knowledgeable Startegic Air Command pilots always carried 5 ounces of
Gin and one ounce of Dry Vermouth in their Survival Kits.
If ever shot down, all you needed to do was to mix the two ingredients
together!
As you were doing this, someone is bound to show up and say -
"That is not the proper way to make a Martini!"
Voila, you are rescued!
ch1...@earthlink.net
Paul Tomblin wrote:
>
> In a previous article, saa...@ibm.net said:
> >Knowledgeable Startegic Air Command pilots always carried 5 ounces of
> >Gin and one ounce of Dry Vermouth in their Survival Kits.
> >If ever shot down, all you needed to do was to mix the two ingredients
> >together!
> >As you were doing this, someone is bound to show up and say -
> >"That is not the proper way to make a Martini!"
> >Voila, you are rescued!
>
> would show up to say "put the red queen on the black king".
>
> --
> Paul Tomblin (ptom...@xcski.com) I don't buy from spammers.
> "Tower zero one request clearance for takeoff."
> "Cleared runway three contact ground point six three when off the runway."
> - Michael Crichton destroys whatever technical credibility he had left.
The Ultimate Survival Gear Lightener, service ceiling increaser, and way
to get out from under a Greenland TDY: Silver 'Half' Dollar with
variable depth cuticle cleaning needle insert.
Courtesy of Gary Powers Enterprises.
1000 Langley Avenue,
Department: Loyalty Before Brains,
1962 south Uralsk Ave.
Paul Tomblin
James Sanchez
David Lesher wrote:
> ptom...@xcski.com (Paul Tomblin) writes:
>
> >A deck of cards would be lighter. Just start to play solitaire, and somebody
> >would show up to say "put the red queen on the black king".
>
> Naw. Carry a 2' long length of fiber optic cable.
> Drop it on the ground. Kick some dirt over it.
> In a short time, a backhoe will show up and dig it up.....
> Follow the backhoe back to civilization....
Take flight maps and wave them furiously, screaming, "I've got proof the president
had an affair!"
Wait for journalists.
David Lesher
ptom...@xcski.com (Paul Tomblin) writes:
>A deck of cards would be lighter. Just start to play solitaire, and somebody
>would show up to say "put the red queen on the black king".
Naw. Carry a 2' long length of fiber optic cable.
Drop it on the ground. Kick some dirt over it.
In a short time, a backhoe will show up and dig it up.....
Follow the backhoe back to civilization....
--
A host is a host from coast to coast.................wb8foz@nrk.com
& no one will talk to a host that's close........[v].(301) 56-LINUX
Unless the host (that isn't close).........................pob 1433
is busy, hung or dead....................................20915-1433