Bombers downing Fighters

[Daryl]

I watched a few documentaries on Bombers, notably the B-17 and the B-24.
Most had more than a few fighter kills painted on their sides.
Sometimes 24 or more. Now, I know that bombers were never on the Ace
List but if they were, how many would have been on that Ace list if allowed.

Daryl

[Gordon]

There is an Ace List of bombers and non-pilot aces, but considering 85% of bomber claims were bogus, I am not sure what good it would be. That 17 in the SoPac that took on and killed a bunch of Japanese fighters early in the war has to be on your list.

[tutall]

Besides, could a pilot become an ace for what his tailgunner shot
down?

That doesn't seem right.
And yes, bomber gunner claims were pretty ridiculous. Heck, the
ridiculousness was tacitly encouraged as a morale booster. Unlike
fighter pilots who's overclaims were (eventually) discouraged.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Gordon" <Gor...@oldboldpilots.org> wrote in message
news:288152f8-86c9-4b3a...@googlegroups.com...

85% bogus because the fighter wasn't shot down, or because each of the
six bombers who saw their tracers hitting it claimed it?
jsw

[tutall]

> jsw- Hide quoted text -
>

How about "both of those and more".

[Bill Shatzer]

http://www.airforce-magazine.com/MagazineArchive/Pages/1991/April%201991/0491gunners.aspx
http://www.amazon.com/Aerial-Gunners-Unknown-Aces-World/dp/0914379011

[Bill Shatzer]

tutall wrote:

> On Mar 18, 8:31 am, Gordon <Gor...@oldboldpilots.org> wrote:
>
>>On Monday, March 18, 2013 6:24:13 AM UTC-7, Daryl wrote:
>>
>>>I watched a few documentaries on Bombers, notably the B-17 and the B-24.
>>
>>> Most had more than a few fighter kills painted on their sides.
>>
>>>Sometimes 24 or more. Now, I know that bombers were never on the Ace
>>
>>>List but if they were, how many would have been on that Ace list if allowed.
>>
>>There is an Ace List of bombers and non-pilot aces, but considering 85% of bomber claims were bogus, I am not sure what good it would be. That 17 in the SoPac that took on and killed a bunch of Japanese fighters early in the war has to be on your list.

> Besides, could a pilot become an ace for what his tailgunner shot
> down?

The entire crew of a night fighter shared credit for an enemy aircraft
downed.

[Jeff Crowell]

"Swede" Vejtasa got 3 Zeroes on just one flight in an SBD...


Jeff
--
Murphy's Laws of gunfights:
Always cheat.

[Keith W]

Jeff Crowell wrote:
> Daryl wrote:
>> I watched a few documentaries on Bombers, notably the B-17 and the
>> B-24. Most had more than a few fighter kills painted on their
>> sides. Sometimes 24 or more. Now, I know that bombers were never on
>> the Ace List but if they were, how many would have been on that Ace
>> list if allowed.
>
>
> "Swede" Vejtasa got 3 Zeroes on just one flight in an SBD...
>

Indeed but he was a truly exceptional pilot and he was flying
an SBD not a B-17. This is a pilot who knocked down 7 enemies
on a single mission while flying an F4F and was awarded 2 Navy
Crosses , one for his dive bombing and another as a fighter pilot.
He went on to become skipper of the USS Constellation (CV 64)
before his retirement.

Keith

[Ian B MacLure]

Daryl <dh...@nospamtvmoviesforfree.com> wrote in
news:ki74ej$vfu$1...@dont-email.me:

How about Dive Bomber gunners?
IIRC there was at least one SBD back seater who got 5 or more.

IBM

[Gordon]

About Swede, be was also one of the guys that created Top Gun, serving as its CO at one point. He was a "First Team" (pre-WWII-trained)pilot, capable of flying anything in the Navy inventory. Among the crazy things he did was landing on the BOW of a carrier once, during combat! another time, being catapaulted from the hangar bay, right into a fight. I am quite humbly proud that we were friends for years. Swede's defense of the Enterprise at the Battle of Santa Cruz is legendary - sometimes referred in Navy circles as "the USS Enterprise vs the Imperial Japanese Navy" (instead of the Battle of Santa Cruz), at one point boiled down to a single F4F vs a squadron of divebombers; he wiped them all out. Five in a few seconds, another two on the way back. When Swede flew as CAP, you had a f****** CAP.

[Matt Wiser]

"Gordon" <Gor...@oldboldpilots.org> wrote in message

news:4bd40b1e-e9d8-41b3...@googlegroups.com...

One of the guys Swede killed at Santa Cruz was LCDR Shigeharu Murata, the
torpedo leader at Pearl Harbor.

[Bob D]

One b29 in the Korean war..."Command Decision" got credit for 5 kills

[Jeff Crowell]

Jeff Crowell wrote:
>> "Swede" Vejtasa got 3 Zeroes on just one flight in an SBD...

Keith W wrote:
> Indeed but he was a truly exceptional pilot and he was flying
> an SBD not a B-17. This is a pilot who knocked down 7 enemies
> on a single mission while flying an F4F and was awarded 2 Navy
> Crosses , one for his dive bombing and another as a fighter pilot.
> He went on to become skipper of the USS Constellation (CV 64)
> before his retirement.

Keith, you're barking up the wrong tree if you are looking
for me to disagree with what you wrote. As far as I'm
concerned, Swede Vejtasa pretty much defines the phrase
"truly exceptional pilot."

I was mostly just poking Daryl.


Jeff
--
YOU KNOW YOU'RE A REDNECK IF...
When someone asks to see your ID, you show them
your belt buckle.

[Airyx]

On Monday, March 18, 2013 9:19:02 PM UTC-5, i...@svpal.org wrote:
> Daryl <dh...@nospamtvmoviesforfree.com> wrote in

> How about Dive Bomber gunners?
>
> IIRC there was at least one SBD back seater who got 5 or more.

I was thinking the same thing. I've always wondered how effective the guns were on the back of SBDs, and Helldivers.

[Ian B MacLure]

Airyx <ewei...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:857b18fe-aa64-4f08...@googlegroups.com:

On the SBD reasonably so although that may have had something to do
with the USN training syllabus and aggressive manoeuvering by the
pilot's. US Army SBDs (A24?) were far less successful against aerial
opponents.

IBM