"German" Flying Saucers
Chris Morton
number of obviously doctored pictures of supposedly "German" flying saucers (the
Balkankreuzer were clumsily hand drawn). I've seen better composite photo work
in binary newsgroups.
I couldn't help thinking about Puketon Arndt and his bizarre fantasies. :)
--
--
Gun control, the theory that 110lb. women should have to fistfight with 210lb.
rapists.
Jeroen Wenting
projects in various stages of development.
I don't think any of them ever flew, but the ideas were certainly there.
"Chris Morton" <cmo...@newsguy.com> wrote in message
news:dlfg4...@drn.newsguy.com...
Rob Arndt
You actually make a good point with your post. Contrary to popular
belief I do not blindly accept what some of the disc writers have put
into print from 1955 forward. Much of the information from Maj. Rudolf
Lusar, Renato Vesco, Justo Miranda, Ernst Zundel, David Masters, and
William Harbinson have done more damage to the history of Flugscheiben
in Germany during the war than of any good trying to present the
credible evidence they screwed up. Here are their mistakes that I
corrected in my book:
1) Maj. Rudolf Lusar erred by using 1950s terminology to describe
"Projekt Saucer". As we all know the Germans did not use that term and
it originated with a reporter who interviewed Kenneth Arnold concerning
his sightings. What Maj. Lusar should have stated was "Projekt
Flugkreisel" (Flight Gyro), which was Rudolf Schriever's confiscated
disc idea. The people involved in that project are all real: Dr.
Richard Miethe (who worked for both AVRO Canada postwar on disc a/c as
well as the first US discs at Wright Patterson AB), Klaus Otto
Habermohl (captured by the Soviets), and Dr. Guiseppe Belluzzo who was
employed at Riva del Garda (renamed the Herman Goering Institute) and
who designed a round version of the V-1 called the "Turboproietti",
short for Turbine Projectile.
There is no disputing the authenticity of these three men and their
work. What is in error is Lusar's lumping a range of disc technology
under one heading which misled many people and caused confusion with
other writers.
2) Renato Vesco's credentials are suspect but he did work with the
Italian AF and had knowledge of certain German disc projects that he
mixed-up. From his books it appears that he has tried to cobble
together various disc programs and makes the same identification and
chronology mistakes as other writers. However, some of his material
that deals with Viktor Schauberger's work is accurate.
3) Justo Miranda is the Luftwaffe '46 of Europe and he has compiled a
fine list of valid German aircraft Projekts. But in his disc material
he has made critical mistakes in properly identifying the "Foo Fighter"
objects and perpetuating a hoax about the V-7 disc as some form of
aerial Flak mine launched off a SAM launcher (Messerschmitt Enzian)
with the use of rotors and Pabst ramjets (not available). Otherwise his
reports of the Sack A.S.6, Epp Omega Diskus, Coanda Lenticular Disc,
and BMW Flugelrads is accurate.
4) Ernst Zundel will not be believed for anything simply because he is
a holocaust denier; however, despite his political and moral views his
knowledge of German Secret Weapons is as accurate as Ian V. Hogg and he
shares some rare valid information on obscure weapons of the Reich that
are not discs. His main problem is proper identification of the
Flugelrad series and mixing them up with poor, inaccurate artist
depictions based on descriptions and Coanda's disc design. He also
provides great resource material for the Nazi Antarctic Expedition with
a good photographic record but then makes a whole bunch of wild claims
seperate from the SS Technical Branch and based on conventional
disc-fans that didn't work out. He seems to have no knowledge of the
occult disc programs at all.
5) David Masters was the first person to try to accurately make a
Luftwaffe 1946 book in 1982 with "German Jet Genesis". It was a valiant
attempt and highly accurate EXCEPT for his disc entries. He simply
copied the mixed up information of Ernst Zundel.
6) William Harbinson wrote a series of fictional novels based on fact
and even lists his extensive research in the back of his novels... but
he, like many others, seem to be fascinated with Schriever's failed
Flugkreisel and the mystery V-7 weapon.
So what is presented is some good evidence for certain German disc
programs but completely wrong information on others- not hoaxes and
lies, but a perpetuation of wrong dates, peoples, places, and proper
identifications.
What I did with my book was search chronologically and match up all the
proper names, dates, and places to eliminate most of the bad
information. What I found through FOIA documents, BIOS Reports, the
record of the 415th NFS, US Army and USAAF/USAF Technical Intelligence
Manuals from 1945-47, as well as eyewitness accounts and postwar disc
developments by AVRO Canada, Lockheed, Northrop, Boeing, and NASA
helped sort out the mistakes and I believe I corrected them all.
Solid evidence exists for the Sack A.S.6, Schauberger Repulsin discoid
motors, Focke's Schnellflugzeug patent/project, the mystery V-7 (Miethe
Elektrische Luft Turbine, under the Bruno Schwenteit postwar patent),
Coanda's Lenticular design, Josef Andreas Epp's Omega Diskus 1/10th
scale models as well as his GDR Pirna disc of 1950, Schriever's
Flugkreisel, and the BMW Prague facility Flugelrad jet auto-gyros.
The problem most people have is with the SS Technical Branch E-IV and
their occult disc programs that date way back to 1922 with the occult
Thule and Vril Gesellschafts. Speer, however, in his book
"Infiltration" tells of his denial of access to SS war production,
materials accumulated, direction of slave work force for weapon
construction, and active projects. Even so, the rumored "Flying Tops"
and request for more slave laborers to work on their production
facility (Jonastal S-III) IS documented by the Armaments Minister.
As far as fakes and hoaxes go, I myself have tried in vain to encourage
every website online with bad information to make suitable corrections
in their chronologies and identifications... but people want to stick
to what they have believed. The SS Schildkrote was exposed on the IFO
Library and I personally sent Miranda and Zundel the patent for the V-7
in an attempt to get them to stop ruining legitimate German disc
information. I got hate mail from both of them.
I simply want to provide a comprehensive German disc development book
that discards the works of others and breaks the discs down into
categories- none of which came under the RLM at any time. People can't
understand that occult societies, the SS, German individuals,
imprisoned aeronautical experts from occupied nations, captured
patents, and the desperation of round-the-clock bombing combined to
create such a wide range of disc projects in the Reich. Even Hitler was
kept ill-informed of the activities of occult socieites that avoided
his 1941 ban and were kept operating under SS designations by Himmler
himself. Goering also had his own private disc project at Peenemunde.
This accumulated knowledge and associated secrecy kept classified and
compartmentalized by the US, UK, and even the German Govt. makes people
uncomfortable, especially with victor-written history and aeronautical
books. I have problems just trying to convince people that the first US
stealth official craft wasn;t the F-117 "Hopeless Diamond" design but a
Windecker Eagle fitted with RAM. Then tell them the entire F-117
faceting originated in the USSR by a Russian professor! It angers
USA-Number-One types who are blinded by false history. Tell them the
Germans had a stealth interceptor MBB Lampyridae (Firefly)
independently from the F-117 and they get upset too.
So Flugscheiben ARE problematic, as are ALL terrestrial UFOs and their
histories.
DT88
Krztalizer
aircraft" was not only built, it also made several attempted flights at
Brandis, home of JG 400's Me 163s. One of JG 400's rather fearless
pilots tried to get Sack's tiny craft airborne and concluded (as did
the other test pilot) that it could have flown if it had a decent motor
installed. It was pieced together from several crashed Luftwaffe
aircraft but the powerplant was not adequate and all it could do is
fast-taxi and hop for very short distances.
v/r
Gordon
Chris Morton
>
>Actually the Germans indeed experimented with the idea and had several
>projects in various stages of development.
>I don't think any of them ever flew, but the ideas were certainly there.
Being that you're in the Netherlands, you might not have had the opportunity to
actually see the show. There were obviously doctored photographs presented,
purporting to show actual aircraft, some of them as large as or larger than a
Ju88.
Chris Morton
says...
>4) Ernst Zundel will not be believed for anything simply because he is
>a holocaust denier
As is indeed right and fitting. He is a pathological liar and fraud, and
anything he says should be evaluated in that context.
He is the Michael Moore of the ultra-rightwing, and is every bit as dishonest.
Chris Morton
says...
Did you see the show? I don't think they showed that particular aircraft. Did
Sack have a large beard? If so, they might have mentioned him, albeit in a
wildly inaccurate manner. What they DID show was obviously doctored photos of
aircraft which were neither built nor flown, including the relatively well known
"Outer Limits" type saucer fake with the apparent MG151 grafted onto the bottom.
Some of the "craft" they showed were poorly composited to make them appear
between a Ju88 and an He111 in size.
I've seen several of these hoax pictures in the past, at least once on a local
cable access show in rural western Ohio.
I'm non-committal when it comes to UFOs. I'm completely unambiguous in my
disdain for the obvious hoax perpetrated by the show.
Rob Arndt
The Discovery Channel contacted me when I was doing the IFO Picture
Library WW2 section. They wanted information of the connection between
Josef Andreas Epp and the V-7. When I told them there was no connection
at all and that the V-7 was Miethe's Elektrische Luft Turbine that they
could look up online under the postwar Schwenteit patent... there was
silence and the interviewer was disappointed. You can verify that
information by contacting Giesbert @ www.laesieworks.com.
I do not know if the Discovery Channel ever did the show on Epp and the
V-7. I never saw anything about it so they probably cancelled it.
That's the problem I was referring to when people read old inaccurate
information and then jump to the wrong conclusions. I knew the correct
history of Epp and his failed Omega Diskus and virtually unknown Pirna
Disc built by the Soviets in the GDR in 1950. The Discovery Channel
didn't want to hear it even though I proved through Epp's timeline that
he COULDN'T have been in 3 places at once working on 3 different
projects! You see, chronology is used by police to determine if someone
is lying. Slip up on time and that is the quickest way to determine
something is wrong. Same for those idiots that keep posting that Vril
started flight testing of RFZ discs in 1934 at Arado-Brandenburg and
even used an Ar-196 tail on RFZ-1.
I keep telling them Vril only bought the fallow land around
Arado-Brandenburg in 1937 and that the Ar-196 wasn't around in 1934.
Yet they stick to the same old wrong info. That ruins their timeline:
Wrong Info:
RFZ 1: 1934
RFZ 2: 1934
RFZ 3: 1934
RFZ 4: 1935
RFZ 5: 1939 * 4 year gap in false timeline
RFZ 6: 1940
RFZ 7: 1941
True Info:
RFZ 1: 1937
RFZ 2: 1937
RFZ 3: 1937
RFZ 4: 1938
RFZ 5: 1939
RFZ 6: 1940
RFZ 7: 1941
perfect alignment which matches Vril purchase of land, Ar-196 tail, and
Thule and Vril reunification as RFZ 5 was Haunebu I and RFZ 7 was Vril
1 Jager. Vril was at Arado-Brandenburg the entire time while Thule was
in NW Germany at Hauneburg testing the Haunebu I.
You see, I know my disc chronology and all histories of both the discs
and the people who built them.
DT88
Andreas Parsch
> In article <1132162975.3...@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com>, Rob Arndt
> says...
>
>
>>4) Ernst Zundel will not be believed for anything simply because he is
>>a holocaust denier
>>
>
> As is indeed right and fitting. He is a pathological liar and fraud, and
> anything he says should be evaluated in that context.
>
> He is the Michael Moore of the ultra-rightwing, and is every bit as dishonest.
>
Just for the record:
Ernst Zündel is the inventor of Nazi-Rob's "Neuschwabenland"
fantasies. Zündel made up the story simply to provide a striking
example of "German superiority" to go with his neo-nazi writings. In
fact, Zündel himself _admitted_ that the "Neuschwabenland" myth was
invented by him for propaganda purposes.
Zündel lived in Canada for decades, but he is still a German citizen
(Canada refused to grant him the Canadian citizenship). Not long ago,
he was expelled from Canada to Germany, and was arrested as soon as he
landed in Frankfurt :-). He is currently on trial for writing and
distributing holocaust-denying and other revisionist material.
Andreas
Eunometic
Andreas Parsch wrote:
> Chris Morton wrote:
>
> Just for the record:
>
> Ernst Zündel is the inventor of Nazi-Rob's "Neuschwabenland"
> fantasies. Zündel made up the story simply to provide a striking
> example of "German superiority" to go with his neo-nazi writings. In
> fact, Zündel himself _admitted_ that the "Neuschwabenland" myth was
> invented by him for propaganda purposes.
>
> Zündel lived in Canada for decades, but he is still a German citizen
> (Canada refused to grant him the Canadian citizenship). Not long ago,
> he was expelled from Canada to Germany, and was arrested as soon as he
> landed in Frankfurt :-). He is currently on trial for writing and
> distributing holocaust-denying and other revisionist material.
>
> Andreas
Andreas,
I wouldn't expet you to get involved in the whictch hunt. Zundel has
done some weird things in his life (his sourcer stuff is no weirder
than Erich van Danikens nonsense though) but the stuff you accuse him
of no doubt comes from unreliable sources. It is nonsense and
exaggeration.
1 Zundel was an Canadian citizen. He had it revoked.
2 Zundel was on the way to becoming an American by marriage. In a
country known for its rediculous boarder control where almost a million
illegal Hispanics every year and police are directed not to ask for
someone 'immigration status' and in which illegal immigrants with
convictions as serious as sexual child molestation are tollerated and
not deported Zundel, a 70+ year old who was a child in WW2 was arrested
for not turning up to an immigraion department meeting he had been
informed of only by mail and which he did not receive.
These is no doubt he was picked upon and there is no doubt that
american law is not law but arbitrary.
3 Zundel was not a holocaust denier. The lowest numbers of Jews he
estimated were killed was 1.5 million.
It has to be remembered that the claims of 4 million were often made of
Auscwhitz and many revisionists had caluclated this was technically
impossible. They were definetly correct as the numbers are now down to
less than 800,000 (and probably much less than that) and the 5.7
million claim can only be maintained when the East European camps are
included.
4 Zundel was not associated with any far right neo-nazi or anti-semitic
group. He never spoke to any and he never went to any meetings. He
was simply a holocaust revisionist, a poor one but a passionate one.
5 Zundel has professed life long pacifistic beliefs.
In Germany there has never been freedom of speach. Not under Hitler,
not under any Kaiser and not under the current government. In Germany
there is now as there was then a totalitarianism in which saying the
wrong thing is considered a crime.
The US is rapidly degenerating and approaching a sort of totalitarian
nation. There are politically correct beliefs originating in both the
left and right of american politics that can not be uttered. In Canada
for all its left wing liberalism the same is happening in a subtler
way.
Most interestingly americans are close to loosing habeous corpus which
prevents governments from arresting people without puting them on trial
or charing them speedily.
Without habeous corpus governments can just terrorise their opponets by
arresting them indefinetly.
by picking on Zundel idiosychrisies and exagerating his beliefs (indeed
you turn his oppionions and arguments into crimes) you show the
mentality of the gang of kids who go along with the school yard bully.
Andreas Parsch
>
> Andreas,
>
> I wouldn't expet you to get involved in the whictch hunt. Zundel has
> done some weird things in his life (his sourcer stuff is no weirder
> than Erich van Danikens nonsense though)
Which is almost true by default, because it's _very_ hard to come up
with weirder nonsense than von Däniken!
> but the stuff you accuse him
> of no doubt comes from unreliable sources. It is nonsense and
> exaggeration.
You sound like Zündel's (ex-)lawyer, who has himself been convicted
for revisionism in the past.
[snip...]
>
> 3 Zundel was not a holocaust denier.
And pigs can fly.
[snip]
>
> In Germany there has never been freedom of speach. Not under Hitler,
> not under any Kaiser and not under the current government. In Germany
> there is now as there was then a totalitarianism in which saying the
> wrong thing is considered a crime.
Describing the current German state as "totalitarian" proves that you
have no grasp of reality whatsoever.
Andreas
Eunometic
The Germans do appear to have been working on several "coanda effect"
flying saucer concepts whose goal was to achieve vertical takeoff and
landing combined with high forward speed. Such proposals came out of
other nations as well in the prewar period but the Germans were probaly
the first to look at using gas turbines in them. Indeed the jet engine
would have made anyone brush of all the old prewar coanda proposals and
have a look again.
A whole bizzare mythology has unfortunatly developed around this work
and the flying sourcers are claimed to have used occult forces or forms
of anti-gravity.
I believe these myths can be traced to the late 40s and the early 50s
when a flying sourcer craze swept through the world. A few sci-fi
style 'fantasty stories' then took on the status of urban myth to some.
Unfortunatly the myths have obscured the plentifull prewar efforts at
creating lenticular vehicles that make use of serodynamic forces.
Keith W
"Eunometic" <euno...@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:1132220345.9...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> 3 Zundel was not a holocaust denier. The lowest numbers of Jews he
> estimated were killed was 1.5 million.
Yet he repeatedly refers to the holocaust as a lie
> It has to be remembered that the claims of 4 million were often made of
> Auscwhitz and many revisionists had caluclated this was technically
> impossible. They were definetly correct as the numbers are now down to
> less than 800,000 (and probably much less than that) and the 5.7
> million claim can only be maintained when the East European camps are
> included.
And why should the Eastern European camps be excluded ?
Fact is the holocaust DID happen and the German Government is
rightly concerned that shit like Zundel be shown for the scum
they are.
Keith
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Eunometic
> Eunometic wrote:
>
> >
> > Andreas,
> >
> > I wouldn't expet you to get involved in the whictch hunt. Zundel has
> > done some weird things in his life (his sourcer stuff is no weirder
> > than Erich van Danikens nonsense though)
>
>
> Which is almost true by default, because it's _very_ hard to come up
> with weirder nonsense than von Däniken!
>
> > but the stuff you accuse him
> > of no doubt comes from unreliable sources. It is nonsense and
> > exaggeration.
>
>
> You sound like Zündel's (ex-)lawyer, who has himself been convicted
> for revisionism in the past.
Lets prosecute the defense lawyers as well.
>
> [snip...]
>
>
> >
> > 3 Zundel was not a holocaust denier.
>
>
> And pigs can fly.
The term 'holocaust denier' is just a label. It gives no freedom for
debate or discusion.
If you reduce debate to applying a label to someone whther that label
be holocaust denier or homosexual it is not a debate or an argument
anymore. Nor does it have anything to do with establishing any facts.
Zundell was right about some things he was wrong about a few, big deal.
It's no reason to imprison someone unless you have the same motives as
Stalin or Pol Pot.
>
> [snip]
>
> >
> > In Germany there has never been freedom of speach. Not under Hitler,
> > not under any Kaiser and not under the current government. In Germany
> > there is now as there was then a totalitarianism in which saying the
> > wrong thing is considered a crime.
>
>
> Describing the current German state as "totalitarian" proves that you
> have no grasp of reality whatsoever.
As a German your opinion of several matters including not only the
Holocaust but several other matters is sadly worthless. The state
decrees that you can only express one opinion or you will be fined and
jailed. You are also legaly exposed to one set of views as well for
anyone publically expressing or dissemination any other view will also
be fined or jailed.
this was found in the american renaisance journal
http://www.amren.com)
Paul Gotfried incidently has two Jewish Parents.
Paul Edward Gottfried, Multiculturalism and the Politics of Guilt:
Toward a Secular Theocracy
University of Missouri Press, 2002
As Prof. Gottfried points out, American notions of "caring,"
"inclusiveness," and deprecation of the majority population are
quickly becoming the norm in Europe. Germany, in particular, must
consider everything in light of whether it atones properly for Nazism.
Prof. Gottfried describes "Weimar 1999," the celebration of the 250th
Anniversary of Goethe's birth in that town, as an especially loathsome
example.
The events, for which there was federal government money, concentrated
as much on the nearby Nazi camp of Buchenwald as on the ancient
Thuringian town ostensibly being honored. This new brand of German
"civic patriotism" even required staged, public conversations between
Weimar school children and elderly survivors of the camps.
Any celebration of anything German must be tempered with apologies for
Hitler. As Prof. Gottfried explains, "maintenance of a contrite mood
serves so- country is so hysterical about the dangers of "improper
thought" that a federal judge, Rudolf Wassermann, wrote in 1994,"He
who denies the truth about the Nazi extermination camps
threatens the very foundations upon which the German Federal Republic
is erected." The very foundations!
Prof. Gottfried quotes the famous German historian Ernst Nolte: "There
will continue to be a kind of soft totalitarianism, which is certainly
not bloody, which allows some range of opinions, and which is even
permissive in matters that are not politically important, but
intellectually it is totalitarianism all the same."
Rob Arndt
with the Nazi Expedition in 38/39, their mapping out and claiming the
territory with German national markers, and establishment for the site
of what was to become Base 211 in the Muhlig-Hoffman mountains.
In the early 1940s the German surface raiders and U-boats brought men
and mining supplies to Neu Schwabenland where Base 211 became
operational between 1942-43. Doenitz gave a speech to his U-boat men
about such a "safe haven" for U-boats in 1943, a place "outside" the
Reich.
Furthermore, during the war Argentina supplied German U-boats with
supplies and kept track of their movements in the South Atlantic, to
Tierra del Fuego, the Falklands, and Neu Schwabenland. The British
Occult Bureau of MI5 sent Wraith commandos recruited from S.O.E. to
track down Ahnenerbe and SS Technical Branch technology which led them
to Neu Schwabenland. The British captured German soldiers on the
Falklands while the US captured German soldiers involved in occult
activities in Greenland. These are historical facts that cannot be
denied. The last communication out of Berlin from Goebbel's ministry
was to Tierra del Fuego. That would seem utterly of no use at all
except for the fact that Hitler chose Doenitz as Fuhrer. The
Kreigsmarine leadership were the least obedient to the NSDAP and yet
Hitler chose Grossadmiral Doenitz as his replacement. Why? Because
Doenitz knew of Neu Schwabenland and the plans for a Fourth Reich.
Himmler did too but was a traitor while Canaris was found to be
collaborating with Vril to groom a new Fuhrer while Hitler was still
alive. SS General Kammler, head of ALL of Germany's most secret weapons
disappeared from Germany in April 1945 and there is little doubt he
fled to Neu Schwabenland with the disc technology intact. According to
various high-level declassified communications between Washington D.C.
and London in late 1945 and 1946, the US was worried about the alleged
German base in Antarctica AND flight disc technology.
Zundel, therefore, fabricated nothing. 54 U-boats WERE missing from
Nazi Germany along with between 142,000-250,000 people of which
virtually the entire SS Technical Branch, the entire Vril and Thule
Gesellschafts, six thousand scientists and technicians, tens of
thousands of slave laborers, and the stolen plans to the Type XXVI
U-Boat were a part of.
Zundel had NOTHING to do with the 1947 Operation Highjump military task
force fiasco to Neu Schwabenland nor the famous UFO-blitz over
Washington D.C. while there was a plan to use nukes in Antarctica
(against the German colony) in Congress. Amazingly, the nuke plans were
scrapped immediately afterward.
Please note that the nations involved in Antarctica have their bases
established largely out of Neu Schwabenland, forming a ring around it!
Although some exploration has been done there, that does NOT prove a
German base(s) do not sit there underground. Plenty of US soldiers
walked right over vast underground VC strongholds/networks without a
clue and that is in decent weather. Antarctic weather is the worst on
the planet. It has been further claimed that the German colony is down
two miles underground since 1945 so good luck "stumbling" upon the
entrance to it. Keith Willshaw sems to think the Germans would be
stupid enough to build an above ground fortress! The Germans are master
bunker builders and even in European Germany in 1945 under total
bombardment plans were moving forward to move the entire population and
industry underground. In Antarctica with no bombing nor interference it
would be quite possible to achieve this. Zundel's holocaust views and
political beliefs have nothing to do with creating a Neu Schwabenland
myth IMO. I've read his stuff too and I only complained to him about
his outdated, inaccurate disc information. His wife is trying to answer
for him while he is under scrutiny so she got mad and responded with
hostility. It's understandable.
DT88
Keith W
"Rob Arndt" <teut...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:1132244483.6...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Zundel also did NOT invent the Neu Schwabenland history. It started
> with the Nazi Expedition in 38/39, their mapping out and claiming the
> territory with German national markers, and establishment for the site
> of what was to become Base 211 in the Muhlig-Hoffman mountains.
OK so far
> In the early 1940s the German surface raiders and U-boats brought men
> and mining supplies to Neu Schwabenland where Base 211 became
> operational between 1942-43.
This is where you get silly.
The voyages of the surface raiders took them into southern water but they
did not carry supplies or men for any such base. They in fact rarely went
south of Kerguelen Island , theoir crews are well documented
and there was simply no opportunity for them to do any such thing
even had they been equipped to do so.
> Doenitz gave a speech to his U-boat men
> about such a "safe haven" for U-boats in 1943, a place "outside" the
> Reich.
And then sent boats to operate from Japanese occupied Indonesia
> Furthermore, during the war Argentina supplied German U-boats with
> supplies and kept track of their movements in the South Atlantic, to
> Tierra del Fuego, the Falklands, and Neu Schwabenland.
This is even sillier
The Falklands were a BRITISH BASE and the RN had a permanent
representative at the Chilean Naval base at Ushuia
> The British
> Occult Bureau of MI5 sent Wraith commandos recruited from S.O.E. to
> track down Ahnenerbe and SS Technical Branch technology which led them
> to Neu Schwabenland. The British captured German soldiers on the
> Falklands while the US captured German soldiers involved in occult
> activities in Greenland.
The US captured weather stations in Greenland. Now I'll agree
weather forecasting can be pretty arcane but it usually involves
barometers and rain gauges not crystal balls.
> These are historical facts that cannot be
> denied. The last communication out of Berlin from Goebbel's ministry
> was to Tierra del Fuego.
Perhaps he was expectin help from the Penguins
> That would seem utterly of no use at all
Indeed it would - IF it happened
> except for the fact that Hitler chose Doenitz as Fuhrer. The
> Kreigsmarine leadership were the least obedient to the NSDAP and yet
> Hitler chose Grossadmiral Doenitz as his replacement. Why? Because
> Doenitz knew of Neu Schwabenland and the plans for a Fourth Reich.
How strange that Doenitz didnt realise that
> Himmler did too but was a traitor while Canaris was found to be
> collaborating with Vril to groom a new Fuhrer while Hitler was still
> alive.
BWAHAHAHHA
SS General Kammler, head of ALL of Germany's most secret weapons
> disappeared from Germany in April 1945 and there is little doubt he
> fled to Neu Schwabenland with the disc technology intact. According to
> various high-level declassified communications between Washington D.C.
> and London in late 1945 and 1946, the US was worried about the alleged
> German base in Antarctica AND flight disc technology.
> Zundel, therefore, fabricated nothing. 54 U-boats WERE missing from
> Nazi Germany
You've been challenged on this before
Fact is 54 of the boats that failed to return were lost to unknown
causes during the entire war.
Provide the pennant numbers of those boats or be proven
a liar and a fool , you see there are records of all such
pennant numbers and the loss dates of those that failed
to return and its clear from them there was no mass last
exodus.
So put up or shut up
along with between 142,000-250,000 people of which
> virtually the entire SS Technical Branch, the entire Vril and Thule
> Gesellschafts, six thousand scientists and technicians, tens of
> thousands of slave laborers,
And they all travelled to Antarctica in flying saucers right !
> and the stolen plans to the Type XXVI
> U-Boat were a part of.
Lots of luck building submarines with neither industries or shipyards
> Zundel had NOTHING to do with the 1947 Operation Highjump military task
> force fiasco to Neu Schwabenland
Well no , he wasnt in the USN
> nor the famous UFO-blitz over
> Washington D.C. while there was a plan to use nukes in Antarctica
> (against the German colony) in Congress. Amazingly, the nuke plans were
> scrapped immediately afterward.
> Please note that the nations involved in Antarctica have their bases
> established largely out of Neu Schwabenland, forming a ring around it!
You silly little man , they have done no such thing
The base map is online at
http://www.geoscience.scar.org/stations/stn_map00.htm
> Although some exploration has been done there, that does NOT prove a
> German base(s) do not sit there underground. Plenty of US soldiers
> walked right over vast underground VC strongholds/networks without a
> clue and that is in decent weather. Antarctic weather is the worst on
> the planet. It has been further claimed that the German colony is down
> two miles underground since 1945 so good luck "stumbling" upon the
> entrance to it. Keith Willshaw sems to think the Germans would be
> stupid enough to build an above ground fortress!
No I dont think the Germans were stupid enough to try and
build ANYTHING there, thats your fantasy. I know what Arctic
conditions are like and how hard it is to sustain life down there.
During the Yukon gold rush the RCMP estimated it took a
minimum of 1 ton of supplies to supprt a person for a year
and thats in a much less harsh climate than Antarctica.
So how did you plan on moving between 250,000 and a million
tons of supplies ?
> The Germans are master
> bunker builders and even in European Germany in 1945 under total
> bombardment plans were moving forward to move the entire population and
> industry underground. In Antarctica with no bombing nor interference it
> would be quite possible to achieve this.
Were it not for the minor fact that they would be in a race between
starving and freezing to death. There are no convenience stores
down there and growing crops on ice aint easy.
> Zundel's holocaust views and
> political beliefs have nothing to do with creating a Neu Schwabenland
> myth IMO. I've read his stuff too and I only complained to him about
> his outdated, inaccurate disc information. His wife is trying to answer
> for him while he is under scrutiny so she got mad and responded with
> hostility. It's understandable.
>
With loonies like you hassling her it surely is.
Peter Twydell
Eunometic <euno...@yahoo.com.au> writes
>
<snip>
>Andreas,
>
>I wouldn't expet you to get involved in the whictch hunt. Zundel has
>done some weird things in his life (his sourcer stuff is no weirder
>than Erich van Danikens nonsense though) but the stuff you accuse him
>of no doubt comes from unreliable sources. It is nonsense and
>exaggeration.
>
>
<snip other error-ridden text>
>by picking on Zundel idiosychrisies and exagerating his beliefs (indeed
>you turn his oppionions and arguments into crimes) you show the
>mentality of the gang of kids who go along with the school yard bully.
>
Please please please please get a spell checker. Doesn't Mozilla have
one? Trying to decipher your posts is driving me crazy.
--
Peter
Ying tong iddle-i po!
Greg Hennessy
<keit...@kwillshaw.nospam.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>Provide the pennant numbers of those boats or be proven
>a liar and a fool ,
What's there to prove ?
It's a self documenting demented drug addled neo nazi f*cknut.
Nothing short of a smack in the mouth will cure it.
greg
--
"Access to a waiting list is not access to health care"
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
I wonder where I can get whatever modemwarrior-heil hitler teuton is
on. His world seems like so much more fun than reality.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Andreas Parsch wrote:
>> Just for the record:
>>
>> Ernst Zündel is the inventor of Nazi-Rob's "Neuschwabenland"
>> fantasies. Zündel made up the story simply to provide a striking
>> example of "German superiority" to go with his neo-nazi writings. In
>> fact, Zündel himself _admitted_ that the "Neuschwabenland" myth was
>> invented by him for propaganda purposes.
>>
>> Zündel lived in Canada for decades, but he is still a German citizen
>> (Canada refused to grant him the Canadian citizenship). Not long ago,
>> he was expelled from Canada to Germany, and was arrested as soon as he
>> landed in Frankfurt :-). He is currently on trial for writing and
>> distributing holocaust-denying and other revisionist material.
>
>> Andreas
>I wouldn't expet you to get involved in the whictch hunt.
The situation is Andreas is much closer to the truth.
>Zundel has
>done some weird things in his life (his sourcer stuff is no weirder
>than Erich van Danikens nonsense though) but the stuff you accuse him
>of no doubt comes from unreliable sources. It is nonsense and
>exaggeration.
Zundel ran a neo nazi publishing house for years.
Try that for starters.
http://www.adl.org/learn/Ext_US/zundel.asp?xpicked=2&item=zundel
http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/zundel/
http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/resources/books/annual6/chap07.html
>1 Zundel was an Canadian citizen. He had it revoked.
Wrong, Zundel was a permanent resident whose applications for
citizenship were rejected.
> 2 Zundel was on the way to becoming an American by marriage.
Wrong, Zundel married an American citizen in 1996, a union that
lasted about a year. Then he married the woman officially running
his web site in 2001 and moved to America after his trials in
Canada. She was a US citizen. The US deported Zundel in
February 2003.
The US does look rather carefully at people trying to become
citizens by marriage, especially when they are fleeing trouble.
(snip) the usual more horrible people out there line.
>Zundel, a 70+ year old who was a child in WW2 was arrested
>for not turning up to an immigraion department meeting he had been
>informed of only by mail and which he did not receive.
Wrong, Zundel was born in 1939, making him 62 or 63 in early 2002.
His 70th birthday will not be until 2009.
No doubt the letter claim is Zundel's.
>These is no doubt he was picked upon and there is no doubt that
>american law is not law but arbitrary.
Wrong, unless arbitrary is defined as not agreeing with those pushing
the neo nazi fiction.
>3 Zundel was not a holocaust denier. The lowest numbers of Jews he
>estimated were killed was 1.5 million.
Wrong again,
Sorry for the URL overlap. In the page Zundel quietly tries for 500,000
from all causes, that is including combat deaths at least, plus probably
natural causes.
Zundel is an extermination program denier, all you need to do is see
the material he published.
>It has to be remembered that the claims of 4 million were often made of
>Auscwhitz and many revisionists had caluclated this was technically
>impossible. They were definetly correct as the numbers are now down to
>less than 800,000 (and probably much less than that) and the 5.7
>million claim can only be maintained when the East European camps are
>included.
Wrong again.
Ah yes the advertisement, the 4 million suffered and died line being twisted
into 4 million dead followed by the claims the deniers have forced the truth.
Simple really, the latest BBC multi part series on the camp complex
has 1.3 million imprisoned there, 1.1 million killed, around 90% of whom
were Jewish.
Note the fact many SS ran away when the Red Army came close was
a real contributor to the survival rates, they failed to kill all the witnesses
before leaving.
There were the death camps, the work to death camps, the let die from
neglect camps, and the killing squads, plus the medical program to kill
people who where classified as too handicapped.
Remember being Jewish as a reason was about half the deaths,
being Gypsy, Communist official, Polish intellectual, handicapped
child, homosexual, Christian clergy opposed to the Nazis and so
on were the rest.
You see Auschwitz was more than a killing camp complex, it was slave
labour as well. Places like Treblinka were simply a small forest clearing
with a rail line where something like 98% or higher of prisoners were killed
within hours of arrival. You had a higher survival chance in the Auschwitz
complex, but that is relative, and the complex became the number 1 camp
for total killings.
>4 Zundel was not associated with any far right neo-nazi or anti-semitic
>group. He never spoke to any and he never went to any meetings. He
>was simply a holocaust revisionist, a poor one but a passionate one.
Wrong.
What the above ignores is Zundel was a publisher of the material. It
seems you can talk the talk but unless doing it before the right group
the idea is you cannot be accused of bad things. See also the way
his name is used on a web site full of the usual neo nazi junk.
To call Zundel a simple "revisionist" ignores his white power activities
for example, it shows someone having a problem with reality.
Poor only applies to Zundel's lack of ability to handle the truth.
>5 Zundel has professed life long pacifistic beliefs.
Meantime using his money to publish hate material. Which is why
Canada decided he would not make a good citizen.
Zundel has real problems with the truth, including the claimed pacifism.
(snip) the rest of the usual free speech line, as opposed to free truthful
speech.
Zimbabwe has had a senior leader calling himself Hitler, if you are
really worried about life in the west perhaps you can move there.
Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
to dodge the draft. He could have gone back to Germany a few years later
without risk. He chose to remain in Canada to spew the filth for which
Germany would have imprisoned him.
Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired
WaltBJ
saw my first episode of 'Lost History's. Pearl Harbor, and those same
three Dauntlesses in a vic averred to be Japanese dive bombers going
after Pearl Harbor. Why oh why won't these ignorant geeks hire at least
one expert historian to clean up their goofs?
Walt BJ
M. J. Powell
WaltBJ <walt...@mindspring.com> writes
It's the film editor. The historian only writes the script usually.
I saw a film about the Blitz on UKHistory recently. In the middle of a
series of clips of Heinkels heading left, there was a clip of Lancasters
heading right!
Mike
Chris Morton
says...
I think that virtually EVERY documentary on Pearl Harbor that I've EVER seen has
used the footage of those same three SBDs.
I once saw a show on the Discovery Channel before the Discovery Wings Channel
came about (and died) where combat footage of at least three [entirely]
different aircraft of different COUNTRIES was used to illustrate a segment about
one.
Eunometic
All completely unbiased sources of course devoid of spin. The ADL and
of course the late Simon Wiesenthal whose bogus 'story' and holocause
industry antics stinks to high heaven and has been called into question
by embarrased members of his own religion.
SeppoP
Truth hurts, nazi boy?
--
Seppo P.
What's wrong with Theocracy? (a Finnish Taliban, Oct 1, 2005)
Keith W
>
> Zundel ran a neo nazi publishing house for years.
> Try that for starters.
>
> http://www.adl.org/learn/Ext_US/zundel.asp?xpicked=2&item=zundel
>
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/zundel/
>
> http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/resources/books/annual6/chap07.html
All completely unbiased sources of course devoid of spin.
CBC has apretty good reputation for unbiased reporting
and Zundels own words condemn him more thoroughly than
anything they could make up.
> The ADL and
> of course the late Simon Wiesenthal whose bogus 'story' and holocause
> industry antics stinks to high heaven and has been called into question
> by embarrased members of his own religion.
Thank you for making your own beliefs so clear.
Keith
Geoffrey Sinclair
Geoffrey Sinclair wrote:
>> Zundel ran a neo nazi publishing house for years.
>> Try that for starters.
>>
>> http://www.adl.org/learn/Ext_US/zundel.asp?xpicked=2&item=zundel
>>
>> http://www.cbc.ca/news/background/zundel/
>>
>> http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/resources/books/annual6/chap07.html
>All completely unbiased sources of course devoid of spin.
Having trouble with the truth I see. I note none of the facts I
presented are refuted, instead we have shoot the messenger
as a reply.
So tell us all what are the unbiased sources with no spin you
used to create the fictional Zundel you reported on?
Zundel has never been a Canadian citizen, was not well on the
way to becoming a US citizen by marriage, is still to turn 70,
he is an extermination program denier and publishes hate
material, including the neo nazi stuff and white power texts.
>The ADL and of course the late Simon Wiesenthal whose bogus 'story'
>and holocause industry antics stinks to high heaven and has been called
>into question by embarrased members of his own religion.
Having more trouble with the truth and trying to shoot the messenger
even harder I see, the above is about as accurate as the fictional
Zundel biography originally presented. So what is the charge against
the CBC, I note it is simply declared bad with no reason given.
By the way I note the actual URL from Zundel I put in showing his
ideas in his words about the extermination program was removed.
Is Zundel another one of those biased sources full of spin? After all
he also contradicts the fictional biography originally presented.
And yes, the death toll at Auschwitz is around 1,100,000 out of
1,300,000 people imprisoned there.