Af/Pak & Other News (11/20/2012)

[dump...@hotmail.com]

Pakistan, Afghan army chiefs, Isaf commander meet in Kabul:

http://dawn.com/2012/11/20/pakistan-afghan-army-chiefs-isaf-commander-meet-in-kabul/



Four Calif. men arrested for plotting attacks against US in
Afghanistan:

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/11/20/15299647-four-calif-men-arrested-for-plotting-attacks-against-us-in-afghanistan



Karzai Orders Afghan Forces to Take Control of American-Built Prison:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/20/world/asia/karzai-orders-takeover-of-afghan-prison.html?_r=0&adxnnl=1&ref=world&adxnnlx=1353429978-Z3InsYduBLSBs1l0D7Bctw



France ends combat mission in Afghanistan:

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hSR9sSRgQ_JFTDLIWcC4_kSJAlgQ?docId=CNG.a711be44c47c225c3590da1ac91c4942.6a1



UN: Afghan Opium Poppy Cultivation up 18 Percent:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/afghan-opium-poppy-cultivation-18-percent-17766035



Blast kills ex-Taliban who joined Afghan police:

http://seattletimes.com/html/nationworld/2019712101_apasafghanistan.html



Indian Maoists facing ammunition shortages:

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Indian_Maoists_facing_ammunition_shortages_999.html



Kurdish Commander Warns of Battle Against Iraq:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/iraqi-president-heads-tense-kurdish-area-17762935



Assad troops fight to oust rebels from Damascus:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/20/us-syria-crisis-idUSBRE88J0X720121120



Britain recognizes Syrian opposition, joining France, European Union:

http://news.msn.com/world/britain-recognizes-syrian-opposition-joining-france-european-union



Israeli aircraft hit Hamas bank HQ in Gaza:

http://news.yahoo.com/israeli-aircraft-hit-hamas-bank-hq-gaza-061135463.html



Truce mediator Egypt sees imminent end to Gaza conflict:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/20/us-palestinians-israel-hamas-idUSBRE8AD0WP20121120



Anonymous Is Losing Its War Against Israel:

http://gizmodo.com/5961685/anonymous-is-losing-its-war-against-israel?tag=hackers



F-16s vs. M16s? Gaza Conflict Revives Old Debate:

http://www.defensenews.com/article/20121119/DEFREG04/311190011/F-16s-vs-M16s-Gaza-Conflict-Revives-Old-Debate?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE



Israel broadens Iron Dome coverage:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/israel-broadens-iron-dome-coverage-379241/



Iron Dome Spoils The Hamas Surprise Attack:

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htada/articles/20121120.aspx



Congolese rebels seize Goma, take airport:

http://news.msn.com/world/congolese-rebels-seize-goma-take-airport



Zambian Air Force incapable of defending national airspace - President
Sata:

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=28598:zambian-air-force-incapable-of-defending-national-airspace-president-sata&catid=35:Aerospace&Itemid=107



Russia Developing 200-km Range Rocket System:

http://www.defencetalk.com/russia-developing-200-km-range-rocket-system-45573/



Poland arrests bomb plotter linked to Norway's Breivik:

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/20/us-poland-attack-idUSBRE8AJ0HQ20121120



Avic Promotes J-31 As An Export Fighter:

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_11_19_2012_p26-517474.xml



Philippines: Military to buy 2 anti-submarine choppers:

http://www.philstar.com/headlines/2012/11/19/868597/military-buy-2-anti-submarine-choppers



US Plans Javelin Sales to Indonesia, Oman:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/140349/us-plans-javelin-sales-to-indonesia%2C-oman.html



Last Boeing P-8 Poseidon LRIP I aircraft almost ready for delivery:

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2012/11/last-boeing-p-8-poseidon-lrip.html



BAE Banking on Hybrid-Electric Combat Vehicle:

http://defensetech.org/2012/11/20/bae-banking-on-hybrid-electric-combat-vehicle/



563rd Rescue Group Receives First Combat Ready HC-130J Combat King II:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/140337/first-combat-ready-hc_130j-enters-service.html



Ban killer robots – Human Rights Watch:

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=28587:ban-killer-robots--human-rights-watch&catid=50:Land&Itemid=105



US Navy's transition from Prowlers to Growlers proceeding smoothly:

http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2012/11/us-navys-transition-from-prowl.html



U.S. Navy, Northrop Grumman Conducting Triton Ground Testing:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/140338/us-navy%2C-northrop-in-triton-uav-ground-testing.html



Silent but Deadly: Special Forces Seek Quiet, Subsonic Bullets:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/11/subsonic-bullets/



U.S. Navy Sticks To Bold Course With Zumwalt Destroyer:

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_11_19_2012_p12-512525.xml



FBI releases files of Stalin's daughter:

http://news.msn.com/world/fbi-releases-files-of-stalins-daughter

[Grantland]

Silent but Deadly: Special Forces Seek Quiet, Subsonic Bullets:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/11/subsonic-bullets/

Bullshit article.

Grantland

[David E. Powell]

Not at all. In the early 1990s 9mm Subsonic was even considered the hot 9mm defense and law enforcement round. That thinking has changed a bit, but the 9mm subsonic rounds are still made, and bought up by civilian shooters as well as police and military for practice and defense.

Of course, the idea of a subsonic bullet being better for use in suppressed or "silenced" weapons goes back many years. The gas from the shot is muffled but if the bullet is supersonic there will still be a sonic crack from the round, a mini sonic boom if you will.

The venerable .45 ACP round showed a bullet can be subsonic and still deadly. It is still plenty fast, moving just under the speed of sound, and has plenty of mass. The standard 9mm is often supersonic, so loading a heavier bullet with less velocity is seen as a compromise, getting it subsonic for use with suppressed weapons while still having lethality. Standard 9mm is 115 to 124 grains, at least in NATO loadings. 9mm Subsonic usually ran at 147 grains if I am not mistaken.

I am sure other calibers can be made subsonic too, some more feasibly than others.

Shoot safe out there!

David

By the way there has been an "Ear safety" drive of sorts to get suppressors and silencers made easier to get in the USA but it hasn't really taken off over here. Most people over here see them and think of Spy movies. In Europe they are considered polite in some places, less noise from firing ranges and all. Interesting world we live in, neh?

Addendum on the 9mm, the ".45 like" blend of higher weight and slower speed in the 9mm Subsonic round had some early 1990s pistoleros thinking it would have more stopping power as a result, but, well, the thinking is drifting back another direction. Of course any factory 9mm round will work mostly due to how well the shooter places the bullet. Ah if only we spent as much time actually practicing as debating, nitpicking and arguing over this many grains of powder or that many of projectile or this or that new firearm or "tactical accessory." I guess with ammo costs these days talk is actually cheaper so.... ;)

For a non-pistol weapon in .45 that used that round with a suppressor, google "De Lisle Carbine."

[David E. Powell]

P.S. Use of polymer clad ammunition has been done too, google "Federal Nyclad."

I suppose the exact polymers used in a lower velocity rifle bullet would be interesting and maybe classified.

The big questions in a rifle are:

1 - What is the effect on trajectory of the round being subsonic? How long are the shots going to be? A slower bullet will drop more over distance and fall to earth within a shorter distance. (Note, a shorter distance, not necessarily a shorter time.) They will need very consistent quality and data on the new loads, definitely, if they are planning for anything other than close range use. (Frankly, if you need to shoot in close the pistol and pistol caliber weapons like submachine guns or carbines will still suffice.)

2 - What effect will the lower velocity have on stopping power? Close in it will probably still be powerful, as the rifle bullets should retain their mass or even gain some, especially in the case of rounds in the 7.62mm range or higher calibers. Over a distance, though, there are again questions.

3 - If the rifle is an autoloader, whether a fully automatic or semi-automatic weapon, how will it be cycled? As many are gas operated I would guess the gas systems would have to be fitzed with a bit, and there is also the issue of that polymer cladding, and making sure it will not clog ports.

4 - I am guessing it will be for only a few ops, as it will probably be quite expensive to engineer and to make while the usual ammunition will be seen as OK for usual duty use.

[Grantland]

On Thursday, November 22, 2012 4:40:03 PM UTC+2, David E. Powell wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 1:34:06 PM UTC-5, Grantland wrote:
>
> > Silent but Deadly: Special Forces Seek Quiet, Subsonic Bullets:
>
> >
>
> > http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/11/subsonic-bullets/
>
> >
>
> > Bullshit article.
>
> >
>
> > Grantland
>
>
>
> Not at all. In the early 1990s 9mm Subsonic was even considered the hot 9mm defense and law enforcement round. That thinking has changed a bit, but the 9mm subsonic rounds are still made, and bought up by civilian shooters as well as police and military for practice and defense.
>
>
>
> Of course, the idea of a subsonic bullet being better for use in suppressed or "silenced" weapons goes back many years. The gas from the shot is muffled but if the bullet is supersonic there will still be a sonic crack from the round, a mini sonic boom if you will.
>
>
> The venerable .45 ACP round showed a bullet can be subsonic and still deadly. It is still plenty fast, moving just under the speed of sound, and has plenty of mass. The standard 9mm is often supersonic, so loading a heavier bullet with less velocity is seen as a compromise, getting it subsonic for use with suppressed weapons while still having lethality. Standard 9mm is 115 to 124 grains, at least in NATO loadings. 9mm Subsonic usually ran at 147 grains if I am not mistaken.
>
>
>
> I am sure other calibers can be made subsonic too, some more feasibly than others.
>
>
>
> Shoot safe out there!
>
>
>
> David
>

Exactly. That's why the article is bullshit.

Grantland

>
> By the way there has been an "Ear safety" drive of sorts to get suppressors and silencers made easier to get in the USA but it hasn't really taken off over here. Most people over here see them and think of Spy movies. In Europe they are considered polite in some places, less noise from firing ranges and all. Interesting world we live in, neh?
>
>
>
> Addendum on the 9mm, the ".45 like" blend of higher weight and slower speed in the 9mm Subsonic round had some early 1990s pistoleros thinking it would have more stopping power as a result, but, well, the thinking is drifting back another direction. Of course any factory 9mm round will work mostly due to how well the shooter places the bullet. Ah if only we spent as much time actually practicing as debating, nitpicking and arguing over this many grains of powder or that many of projectile or this or that new firearm or "tactical accessory." I guess with ammo costs these days talk is actually cheaper so.... ;)
>
>
>
> For a non-pistol weapon in .45 that used that round with a suppressor, google "De Lisle Carbine."

In other words, all the worries about poor accuracy, obturation problems, lead "burning" etc are bullshit.

[Keith W]

David E. Powell wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 20, 2012 1:34:06 PM UTC-5, Grantland wrote:
>> Silent but Deadly: Special Forces Seek Quiet, Subsonic Bullets:
>>
>> http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/11/subsonic-bullets/
>>
>> Bullshit article.
>>
>> Grantland
>
> Not at all. In the early 1990s 9mm Subsonic was even considered the
> hot 9mm defense and law enforcement round. That thinking has changed
> a bit, but the 9mm subsonic rounds are still made, and bought up by
> civilian shooters as well as police and military for practice and
> defense.
>

It was popular a little before that, the original Saint books
by Leslie Charteris written in the late 1920's mentioned that
he used a 9mm pistol with reduced charge ammunition.

Keith