Af/Pak & Other News (9/24/2012)

[dump...@hotmail.com]

Taliban release video on Afghan base attackers:

http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/2012/09/24/nato-insurgent-attacks-afghanistan-declining/xw8fTsk8xDRB8XQ3ML0W6H/story.html



Navy Cultivates Fire Scout Experts During Deployment:

http://www.defencetalk.com/navy-cultivates-fire-scout-experts-during-deployment-44695/



Threat of Terrorist IED’s Growing, Expanding, General Says:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/138675/ied-threat-growing%2C-expanding%2C-us-warns.html



Slain Marine commander’s actions in Afghanistan called heroic:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/slain-marine-commanders-actions-in-afghanistan-called-heroic/2012/09/21/f4703c76-042d-11e2-91e7-2962c74e7738_story_1.html



VMA-211 returns home from Afghanistan:

http://alert5.com/2012/09/24/vma-211-returns-home-from-afghanistan/




The air force men who fly drones in Afghanistan by remote control:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9552547/The-air-force-men-who-fly-drones-in-Afghanistan-by-remote-control.html




Taliban Targeted by Local Uprisings:

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444620104578006201295641128.html?mod=googlenews_wsj



Panetta Announces Completion of Afghanistan Surge Drawdown:

http://www.defencetalk.com/dod-completion-afghanistan-surge-drawdown-44683/



IAF to procure two 2nd-hand Mirage-2000:

http://www.financialexpress.com/news/iaf-to-procure-two-2ndhand-mirage2000/1006766/



Iraq aims to unite with new national anthem, flag:

http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Iraq_aims_to_unite_with_new_national_anthem_flag_999.html



Syria jets 'bomb Aleppo' ahead of Brahimi UN briefing:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19700212



Over 2,000 Syrian soldiers defected to Jordan:

http://gulfnews.com/in-focus/syria/over-2-000-syrian-soldiers-defected-to-jordan-1.1080500



Syria information ministry email hacked: TV:

http://english.ahram.org.eg/NewsContent/2/8/53713/World/Region/Syria-information-ministry-email-hacked-TV.aspx



IN FOCUS: Israeli police expands the role of rotorcraft:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/in-focus-israeli-police-expands-the-role-of-rotorcraft-376847/



Two Israeli Air Force generals come close to colliding head-on:

http://alert5.com/2012/09/24/two-israeli-air-force-generals-come-close-to-colliding-head-on/



Israeli air force re-engining Hermes 450 fleet:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/israeli-air-force-re-engining-hermes-450-fleet-376841/



Female sniper: I didn’t think twice:

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4285423,00.html



IAI offers Panther tiltrotor for ship-based operations:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/iai-offers-panther-tiltrotor-for-ship-based-operations-376840/



Egypt sentences 14 to death over Sinai attacks:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/sns-rt-us-egypt-sinai-courtbre88n0ec-20120924,0,2181121.story



Deadly Libya attack a major blow to CIA efforts:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/49143983/ns/world_news-the_new_york_times/?ocid=msnhp



Industrial Automotive Design partners with Streit Group, launches new
vehicle:

http://www.defenceweb.co.za/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=27785:industrial-automotive-design-partners-with-streit-group-launches-new-vehicle&catid=50:Land&Itemid=105



Poland Eyes $4 Bln Missile Modernization Program:

http://en.ria.ru/mlitary_news/20120924/176197111.html



Japan protests as Chinese ships enter disputed waters:

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/japan-protests-as-chinese-ships-enter-disputed-waters-271603



China seeks drones to monitor islands:

http://defensetech.org/2012/09/24/china-seeks-drones-to-monitor-islands/



Boeing gets contract to build 11 more P-8As:

http://alert5.com/2012/09/23/boeing-gets-contract-to-build-11-more-p-8as/



AFRL Backs New Type Of Combat-Aircraft Engine:

http://www.aviationweek.com/Article.aspx?id=/article-xml/AW_09_24_2012_p31-497914.xml



Regrown Bones, Transplanted Faces: This Chemist Is Remaking Military
Medicine:

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/09/worlds-most-wired-joachim-kohn/



JFK Tapes Reveal New Insight into Tensions During Cuban Missile
Crisis:

http://www.kabc.com/rssItem.asp?feedid=118&itemid=29913510

[Andrew Swallow]

On 24/09/2012 17:06, dump...@hotmail.com wrote:
> Taliban release video on Afghan base attackers:
>
> http://www.boston.com/news/world/asia/2012/09/24/nato-insurgent-attacks-afghanistan-declining/xw8fTsk8xDRB8XQ3ML0W6H/story.html
>

I noticed that the above article reported,
"NATO said the shortened poppy harvest in the spring meant that the
usual summer fighting season started earlier."

So this war is not Muslims V. Christians but drug pushes V. the God fearing.

That leaves plenty of room for propaganda. Some of the following is
even true.

It would not be hard to make the drug lords appear to be secret devil
worshippers - who have sold their souls to The Devil for money, or if
they are old men for extra life.

These evil men are contaminating good people for money. Their Muslim
victims turn to crime to get the money - theft and prostitution. An
offence unto Allah and pleasing to The Devil.
Note: drug taking is the sin of gluttony. Lots of lost souls there.

Since the authorities arrest drug dealers and destroy their crops these
evil men need defenders. Many government officials are bribed
(accepting a bribe is easier than doing jobs that help the people).
There are still officials who try to stop the drug lords - physical
force is used to fight the good men.

Men can be recruited to fight for money. However defending drugs tends
to upset both the man's family and Imam. So the recruiters tell the
Imam that the men will be fighting Infidels for Mohamed; and hope the
Imam does not discover that the recruiter's boss is a drug lord who
commits lots of sins.

The West may have made the mistake of believing this war was about oil.
Osama bin Laden came from oil rich Saudi Arabia and his men's families
had connections to oil. However he fled to Afghanistan and Pakistan;
his hosts make money from growing poppies.

Plenty there for Hollywood, particularly if evidence is produced.
Although in that part of the world I suspect they watch films made by
Bollywood. Bollywood is based in India, no friend of Pakistan and its
film produces are short of money.

Andrew Swallow

[Andrew Swallow]

On 24/09/2012 17:06, dump...@hotmail.com wrote:

> Taliban Targeted by Local Uprisings:
>
> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444620104578006201295641128.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

A power-mad Pakistan based Taliban offshoot killing Afghanistan locals
probably counts as murder. That allows police and government intervention.

The locals appear to be fighting an uprising against the Taliban. If
the Taliban faction can be linked to illegal drugs and the locals do not
grow them, then the DEA could be used as the front organisation to
supply the unofficial militia with weapons. The DEA may have rules
permitting it.

To reduce blow back please ensure any heavy weapons stop working after
about 10 years.

Andrew Swallow

[Bill]

Any article that talks about 'village elders' and routinely rusty
weapons in Afghan villages is to be treated with extreme suspicion.

[La N.]

"Bill" <black...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:tni168p856quf39or...@4ax.com...

Those who know A LOT about Afghanistan say that it should be noted that
Afghans are fighting against Pakistan Talis, not necessarily Afg Talis (for
various reasons), so wouldn't get too excited.

- nilita

[Alex Potter]

On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 14:16:44 -0700, La N. wrote:

> Those who know A LOT about Afghanistan say that it should be noted that
> Afghans are fighting against Pakistan Talis,

i.e "foreigners". Same old, same old, then.

--
Alex

[Bill]

Not quite.

They're all Pathans...

[Alex Potter]

Given that people from the next English county in the not-too-distant
past were considered to be "furrinners", I wouldn't be surprised if the
fact that they are all Pathan is not significant?

--
Alex

[Bill]

On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 21:31:38 +0000 (UTC), Alex Potter

<spa...@ap-consulting.co.uk> wrote:

>On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 22:22:15 +0100, Bill wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 21:21:08 +0000 (UTC), Alex Potter
>> <spa...@ap-consulting.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 14:16:44 -0700, La N. wrote:
>>>
>>>> Those who know A LOT about Afghanistan say that it should be noted
>>>> that Afghans are fighting against Pakistan Talis,
>>>
>>>i.e "foreigners". Same old, same old, then.
>>
>> Not quite.
>>
>> They're all Pathans...
>
>Given that people from the next English county in the not-too-distant
>past were considered to be "furrinners", I wouldn't be surprised if the
>fact that they are all Pathan is not significant?

Oh they'll certainly all be from different tribes to the locals.

Mainly because any locals who are also Taliban will side with their
clan and sept against the other Taliban.

Politics is one thing, the clan is another story. Especially in a
society where clan links are probably the strongest links the young
men involved have ever had.

[Keith W]

Andrew Swallow wrote:
> On 24/09/2012 17:06, dump...@hotmail.com wrote:
>> Taliban Targeted by Local Uprisings:
>>
>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444620104578006201295641128.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
>
> A power-mad Pakistan based Taliban offshoot killing Afghanistan locals
> probably counts as murder. That allows police and government
> intervention.
> The locals appear to be fighting an uprising against the Taliban. If
> the Taliban faction can be linked to illegal drugs and the locals do
> not grow them, then the DEA could be used as the front organisation to
> supply the unofficial militia with weapons. The DEA may have rules
> permitting it.
>

The locals are the ones who grow the stuff, what you have here
is a war between two groups of drug dealers.

> To reduce blow back please ensure any heavy weapons stop working after
> about 10 years.
>

Please explain how you stop a percussion cap going bang
when struck by a firing pin ?

Keith

[Bill]

On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 22:46:33 +0100, "Keith W"
<keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote:

>Andrew Swallow wrote:
>> On 24/09/2012 17:06, dump...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>> Taliban Targeted by Local Uprisings:
>>>
>>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444620104578006201295641128.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
>>
>> A power-mad Pakistan based Taliban offshoot killing Afghanistan locals
>> probably counts as murder. That allows police and government
>> intervention.
>> The locals appear to be fighting an uprising against the Taliban. If
>> the Taliban faction can be linked to illegal drugs and the locals do
>> not grow them, then the DEA could be used as the front organisation to
>> supply the unofficial militia with weapons. The DEA may have rules
>> permitting it.
>>
>
>The locals are the ones who grow the stuff, what you have here
>is a war between two groups of drug dealers.

Nobody cares about where the money comes from yet.

If Afghanistan is industrialised the dope farmers and smugglers will
probably stop their operations as they don't earn that much money at
it.

>> To reduce blow back please ensure any heavy weapons stop working after
>> about 10 years.
>>
>
>Please explain how you stop a percussion cap going bang
>when struck by a firing pin ?

Probably with a clever electrical ignition and sighting system.

See how they do it with the Stinger.

[Keith W]

Bill wrote:
> On Mon, 24 Sep 2012 22:46:33 +0100, "Keith W"
> <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>> On 24/09/2012 17:06, dump...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> Taliban Targeted by Local Uprisings:
>>>>
>>>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444620104578006201295641128.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
>>>
>>> A power-mad Pakistan based Taliban offshoot killing Afghanistan
>>> locals probably counts as murder. That allows police and government
>>> intervention.
>>> The locals appear to be fighting an uprising against the Taliban.
>>> If the Taliban faction can be linked to illegal drugs and the
>>> locals do not grow them, then the DEA could be used as the front
>>> organisation to supply the unofficial militia with weapons. The
>>> DEA may have rules permitting it.
>>>
>>
>> The locals are the ones who grow the stuff, what you have here
>> is a war between two groups of drug dealers.
>
> Nobody cares about where the money comes from yet.
>
> If Afghanistan is industrialised the dope farmers and smugglers will
> probably stop their operations as they don't earn that much money at
> it.
>

Indeed

>>> To reduce blow back please ensure any heavy weapons stop working
>>> after about 10 years.
>>>
>>
>> Please explain how you stop a percussion cap going bang
>> when struck by a firing pin ?
>
> Probably with a clever electrical ignition and sighting system.
>
> See how they do it with the Stinger.

The main way they did it was to carefully control the supply
but the reality is that most heavy weapons dont have batteries
with a fixed shelf life.

Keith

[Bill]

On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 00:28:05 +0100, "Keith W"
<keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote:

>Bill wrote:

>>> Please explain how you stop a percussion cap going bang
>>> when struck by a firing pin ?
>>
>> Probably with a clever electrical ignition and sighting system.
>>
>> See how they do it with the Stinger.
>
>The main way they did it was to carefully control the supply
>but the reality is that most heavy weapons dont have batteries
>with a fixed shelf life.

So change the way things are done.

Stopping the bad guys getting their hands on this stuff is obviously
impossible.

For a start all the Arab tyrannies leak heavy weapons all the time. If
it isn't government policy it's the troops wanting some cash.

So.

UN binding resolution enforcing the use of electrical ignition for
everything over 12mm/.50".

Inspection by a collection of people who don't usually get on (A joint
US/Russian/Chinese/Indian/Malaysian inspection team would probably
offend everyone.

[Andrew Swallow]

Batteries in Singer missiles can need replacing.
Gun powder used to have problems, I suspect that modern warheads could
contain a third chemical that neutralises the oxidiser.

Andrew Swallow

[Andrew Swallow]

Modern infantry men wear armour. It is the stuff that kills when he is
in armour that we have to worry about.

I assume that the main things being inspected are the armament
factories, with supply dumps being a double check.

Andrew Swallow

[dott.Piergiorgio]

Il 25/09/2012 11:45, Andrew Swallow ha scritto:

> Modern infantry men wear armour. It is the stuff that kills when he is
> in armour that we have to worry about.

not all infantry... there's always light infantry (and honestly, no one
here take seriously heavy BDA for the Bersaglieri, whose ARE the
quintessential light infantry...)

BDA's main role is of enabling infantry to make close contact with the
enemy, dealing mainly with shell fragment and long-range (and slowed
down) suppressive fire....

> I assume that the main things being inspected are the armament
> factories, with supply dumps being a double check.

well, is certain here that some (Italian-made...) Saudi weapon ends in
hand of the Red Brigades, late 1970s/early 1980 the thing was discovered
when the weapons was recovered, and the Saudi markings was duly noticed
and ID (how Saudis and PLO don't think of filing out the telltale
marking of crossed shamishirs and Arabic writing, escapes me....)

[Naval content here, the recovery of these weapons led to the uncovering
of the Red Brigades's sea smuggling expedition, a tale whose of course
was deeply researched by myself....]

Best regards from Italy,
dott. Piergiorgio.

[Bill]

You make damn sure the stuff is properly marked in a very hard to
delete way.

You get hold of anything that gets captured.

You make life Hell for anyone who has lost stuff without a decent
reason. Close the factory, lock up any soldiers involved for a
decade, disqualify any politicians involved from office.

[Bill]

On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 12:56:01 +0200, "dott.Piergiorgio"
<chied...@ask.me> wrote:

>well, is certain here that some (Italian-made...) Saudi weapon ends in
>hand of the Red Brigades, late 1970s/early 1980 the thing was discovered
>when the weapons was recovered, and the Saudi markings was duly noticed
>and ID (how Saudis and PLO don't think of filing out the telltale
>marking of crossed shamishirs and Arabic writing, escapes me....)

You can file off all the numbers you want.

The stress marks from the stamping process leaves stress lines in the
metal and the numbers can be read under certain kinds of specialised
light.

Serial numbers on a weapon are always accessible.

You need special factories making highly illegal numberless weapons,
like the Welrod, to actually make weapons untraceable.

These are invariably in government hands.

[dott.Piergiorgio]

Il 25/09/2012 15:18, Bill ha scritto:

>> well, is certain here that some (Italian-made...) Saudi weapon ends in
>> hand of the Red Brigades, late 1970s/early 1980 the thing was discovered
>> when the weapons was recovered, and the Saudi markings was duly noticed
>> and ID (how Saudis and PLO don't think of filing out the telltale
>> marking of crossed shamishirs and Arabic writing, escapes me....)
>
> You can file off all the numbers you want.
>
> The stress marks from the stamping process leaves stress lines in the
> metal and the numbers can be read under certain kinds of specialised
> light.

we're talking ownership marking, not serial #; the latter is
intentionally stamped deep with force for the reason you put;
country/service markings are generally stamped much lightly; I guess
that in late 1970s/early 80s was feasible to at least blur enough the
stress lines to render unrecognizable enough the markings (I think I
still have around a forensic ballistics book of that timeframe...)

there are pics of country/service markings, whose I suspect you're
throughly familiar:

> http://www.allaboutenfields.co.nz/history/markings/

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bill" <black...@gmail.com> wrote

> UN binding resolution enforcing the use of electrical ignition for
> everything over 12mm/.50".

How will that stop someone from taping a battery to the outside of
weapons that don't have to fly?

[Bill]

All firearms have a serial number and all are 'inventory items'.

They are traceable because they're 'on someone's chitty'.

Military weapons leave a paper-trail that can be followed by serial
number.

The various tribal 'touchmarks' inscribed during the weapon's life are
irrelevant.

The stores wonks record the serial number, and all firearms have got
one.

Bigger pieces, like artillery, have a 'gun book' which should record
every round fired. This is important because the point of aim of an
artillery piece changes with wear in a predictable manner.

[Bill]

The same way they do for Stinger.

A peculiar battery shape coupled with complicated electrical
connections and a shortish battery life.

[Keith W]

Andrew Swallow wrote:
> On 24/09/2012 22:46, Keith W wrote:
>> Andrew Swallow wrote:
>>> On 24/09/2012 17:06, dump...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>>> Taliban Targeted by Local Uprisings:
>>>>
>>>> http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444620104578006201295641128.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
>>>
>>> A power-mad Pakistan based Taliban offshoot killing Afghanistan
>>> locals probably counts as murder. That allows police and government
>>> intervention.
>>> The locals appear to be fighting an uprising against the Taliban. If the
>>> Taliban faction can be linked to illegal drugs and the
>>> locals do not grow them, then the DEA could be used as the front
>>> organisation to supply the unofficial militia with weapons. The
>>> DEA may have rules permitting it.
>>>
>>
>> The locals are the ones who grow the stuff, what you have here
>> is a war between two groups of drug dealers.
>>
>>> To reduce blow back please ensure any heavy weapons stop working
>>> after about 10 years.
>>>
>>
>> Please explain how you stop a percussion cap going bang
>> when struck by a firing pin ?
>>
>> Keith
>>
>>
>
> Batteries in Singer missiles can need replacing.

Betting that the enemy cant source alternative batteries isnt
a great basis for a security system.

> Gun powder used to have problems,

Gun powder went out of use around 150 years ago

> I suspect that modern warheads could
> contain a third chemical that neutralises the oxidiser.
>

Not exactly great for your own stockpiles is that.

Keith

[Keith W]

The biggest killers in Afghanistan and Iraq are crude improvised
explosive devices. Having 1000 lbs of home made ANFO
go off under your APC can ruin your whole day.

Keith

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bill" <black...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:ijq36851nu4bj28vb...@4ax.com...

I see. In your world no one knows how to solder wires and a clever
shape would defeat duct tape.

A good electronic tech with a small lathe and milling machine can
jury-rig a mate to most custom electrical connectors by waxing the
connector, sticking in bits of brass sheet or tube and potting them
together in epoxy. Kapton adhesive tape is very useful as
high-performance homebrew insulation for making odd-sized laptop
coaxial power plugs etc.

Someone had to make the first one from scratch somehow.

I've cobbled up plugs and disassembly tools to fit several oddball
military connectors when I had a week to test the device and the
manufacturer's part had a 6 month lead time.

JSW, who has hot-wired integrated circuits that were still on the
silicon wafer.
http://gallery.hd.org/_exhibits/electronics/_more2004/_more05/silicon-wafer-oblique-gold-background-1-DHD.jpg

[Jim Wilkins]

"Keith W" <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote in message
news:%sm8s.239145$M53....@fx26.am4...

> Andrew Swallow wrote:
>
>> I suspect that modern warheads could
>> contain a third chemical that neutralises the oxidiser.
>
> Not exactly great for your own stockpiles is that.
>
> Keith

Nitrates decompose slowly if not stabilized, but storing them in a
cool cave slows it down. The stabilizer caused the powder fouling in
Vietnam.

[Andrew Swallow]

Assuming that you use the same explosive for export models and own forces.

> Keith
>
>

[Andrew Swallow]

And think how much worse things would be if the insurgents were using
proper explosives.

Many IEDs were made from things like artillery shells.

Andrew Swallow

[Bill]

On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 19:11:05 +0100, "Keith W"
<keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote:


>> Batteries in Singer missiles can need replacing.
>
>Betting that the enemy cant source alternative batteries isnt
>a great basis for a security system.
>

It seems to work...

[Bill]

On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 14:33:45 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

I'm sure all the above is true.

Twenty odd years ago I used to do similar things myself.

However the Stinger missiles given to the Mujahadin in Afghanistan
have not turned up elsewhere.

The Stinger BCU (Battery coolant unit) seems to have been special
enough to defy the manufacture of a field expedient replacement.

[Dean Markley]

Well to be sure, most modern explosives do not use "nitrates". But since the original source of nitrate was guano, I doubt their stability was a problem. Now you may be thinking nitrocellulose and nitroglycerine which were used in cordite and stabilized with petroleum jelly.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bill" <black...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:2a0468d3p88rjdafe...@4ax.com...

> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 14:33:45 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
> <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:

> ................

> Twenty odd years ago I used to do similar things myself.
>
> However the Stinger missiles given to the Mujahadin in Afghanistan
> have not turned up elsewhere.
>
> The Stinger BCU (Battery coolant unit) seems to have been special
> enough to defy the manufacture of a field expedient replacement.

Exotic high-performance batteries in space- and weight-limited
airframes are another story, you can't just tape a bunch of
model-airplane Lithiums to the outside. My point is that ground
weapons aren't so restricted.

Laptop batteries are a good analogy. I had to have solder tabs
spot-welded onto the proper 2016 coin cell to replace the dead CMOS
battery. There's no room for anything else.

The main battery is possible but difficult to rebuild, and has a
custom battery management computer built in that I wouldn't touch if I
didn't have industrial experience repairing Lithium battery packs.
http://www.ti.com/ww/en/analog/bq77910_integrated_battery_protection_solution/index.shtml

OTOH I can run it for days on a lead-acid truck battery and an
auto-air adapter. If I hire a kid to haul the battery it's still
portable.

jsw

[Bill]

On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:52:24 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

<murat...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Bill" <black...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:2a0468d3p88rjdafe...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 14:33:45 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
>> <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> ................
>
>> Twenty odd years ago I used to do similar things myself.
>>
>> However the Stinger missiles given to the Mujahadin in Afghanistan
>> have not turned up elsewhere.
>>
>> The Stinger BCU (Battery coolant unit) seems to have been special
>> enough to defy the manufacture of a field expedient replacement.
>
>Exotic high-performance batteries in space- and weight-limited
>airframes are another story, you can't just tape a bunch of
>model-airplane Lithiums to the outside. My point is that ground
>weapons aren't so restricted.

Stinger is an infantry weapon.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bill" <black...@gmail.com> wrote in message

news:kra468tbrvi7mamcm...@4ax.com...

Is the irreplaceable battery in the launcher or the missile? I've only
practiced aiming an inert trainer.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:k3tg1f$5vc$1...@dont-email.me...

> "Bill" <black...@gmail.com> wrote in message

>> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:52:24 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

>>>"Bill" <black...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>>

>>>> The Stinger BCU (Battery coolant unit) seems to have been special
>>>> enough to defy the manufacture of a field expedient replacement.

A 20mm electric primer should fire from a 2uF capacitor charged to
160VDC. That isn't much of a challenge to build from scrap. I made a
shock-when-opened Sucrets tin as a kid that put out a bigger zap from
a homemade spark coil that fit inside.

[Keith W]

The battery coolant unit is more than just a power supply, in fact
the battery part is a no brainer for any electronis tech. Since the
1990's the original chromate batetry has been replaced with lithium
batteries not dissimilar to those used in consumer electronics.

The crucial bit is the supply of argon gas it contains to cool the
IR seeker. Without that its just an expensive rpg.

The real reason that the 1980's Stinger are scrap probably has
more to do with the rocket motor which uses an HTPB propellant
in a polymer binder. That binder gradually degrades which means
that at best the missile flies erratically and at worst explodes on firing.

Keith

[dott.Piergiorgio]

well, capacitors, esp. electrolytic ones, *can* be used as primer, with
their nasty propension to blown when suddenly overloaded....

[Bill]

On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 19:51:34 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"

<murat...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>"Bill" <black...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>news:kra468tbrvi7mamcm...@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 17:52:24 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
>> <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Bill" <black...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>news:2a0468d3p88rjdafe...@4ax.com...
>>>> On Tue, 25 Sep 2012 14:33:45 -0400, "Jim Wilkins"
>>>> <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> ................
>>>
>>>> Twenty odd years ago I used to do similar things myself.
>>>>
>>>> However the Stinger missiles given to the Mujahadin in Afghanistan
>>>> have not turned up elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>> The Stinger BCU (Battery coolant unit) seems to have been special
>>>> enough to defy the manufacture of a field expedient replacement.
>>>
>>>Exotic high-performance batteries in space- and weight-limited
>>>airframes are another story, you can't just tape a bunch of
>>>model-airplane Lithiums to the outside. My point is that ground
>>>weapons aren't so restricted.
>>
>> Stinger is an infantry weapon.
>
>Is the irreplaceable battery in the launcher or the missile? I've only
>practiced aiming an inert trainer.
>

It's the lump you insert into the grip just before firing.
>

[Jim Wilkins]

"Keith W" <keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote in message

news:2xy8s.364315$N83.1...@fx21.am4...

>
> The real reason that the 1980's Stinger are scrap probably has
> more to do with the rocket motor which uses an HTPB propellant
> in a polymer binder. That binder gradually degrades which means
> that at best the missile flies erratically and at worst explodes on
> firing.
>
> Keith

Those don't apply to low-tech AA cannon shells etc with electric
primers.

[Andrew Chaplin]

Bill <black...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:kra468tbrvi7mamcm...@4ax.com:

> Stinger is an infantry weapon.

Oh. Dear. Not in any professional army, it ain't, and not even in any
conscript army worthy of being called an "army." The guys who fire it may
look like grunts, but that is just protective colouring. They're AD
specialists, even in the USMC, because they have to be integrated into an AD
command and control system and they have to identify targets correctly. The
integration into the system is the biggie here, as infantry does not have
the comms to do it nor, frankly, the time.
--
Andrew Chaplin
SIT MIHI GLADIUS SICUT SANCTO MARTINO
(If you're going to e-mail me, you'll have to get "yourfinger." out.)

[Bill]

In the words of a highly successful manager:

"That's a technical issue and can be solved, what matters is making
the boss happy."

[Bill]

On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:04:41 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Chaplin
<ab.ch...@yourfinger.rogers.com> wrote:

>Bill <black...@gmail.com> wrote in
>news:kra468tbrvi7mamcm...@4ax.com:
>
>> Stinger is an infantry weapon.
>
>Oh. Dear. Not in any professional army, it ain't, and not even in any
>conscript army worthy of being called an "army." The guys who fire it may
>look like grunts, but that is just protective colouring. They're AD
>specialists, even in the USMC, because they have to be integrated into an AD
>command and control system and they have to identify targets correctly. The
>integration into the system is the biggie here, as infantry does not have
>the comms to do it nor, frankly, the time.

If they're wearing green uniforms and fighting on foot with a shoulder
fired weapon they're infantry.

They may have some special training and may even technically be under
someone else's control, but they're infantry...

[Andrew Chaplin]

Bill <black...@gmail.com> wrote in
news:jno5689rcpb945sgd...@4ax.com:

> If they're wearing green uniforms and fighting on foot with a shoulder
> fired weapon they're infantry.
>
> They may have some special training and may even technically be under
> someone else's control, but they're infantry...

No, infantry closes with the enemy and destroys it. Artillery establishes
such fire supremacy in the battle area that the enemy can neither interfere
with our operations nor effectively develop his own. As part of the
artillery, air defence artillery prevents the enemy from interfering from
the air with our operations on the ground. ADA does not "close with the
enemy," the enemy comes to him. The fact the Stinger operator is on his feet
is because he is the mount.

[Andrew Chaplin]

Andrew Chaplin <ab.ch...@yourfinger.rogers.com> wrote in
news:XnsA0DA4AD866AC2H...@88.198.244.100:

> Bill <black...@gmail.com> wrote in
> news:jno5689rcpb945sgd...@4ax.com:
>
>> If they're wearing green uniforms and fighting on foot with a shoulder
>> fired weapon they're infantry.
>>
>> They may have some special training and may even technically be under
>> someone else's control, but they're infantry...

<Instructor-in-Gunnery hat>

> No, infantry closes with the enemy and destroys it. Artillery
> establishes such fire supremacy in the battle area that the enemy can
> neither interfere with our operations nor effectively develop his own.
> As part of the artillery, air defence artillery prevents the enemy from
> interfering from the air with our operations on the ground. ADA does
> not "close with the enemy," the enemy comes to him. The fact the
> Stinger operator is on his feet is because he is the mount.

</Instructor-in-Gunnery hat>

"You can't get ahead without a hat."

[Bill]

On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:21:27 +0000 (UTC), Andrew Chaplin
<ab.ch...@yourfinger.rogers.com> wrote:

>Bill <black...@gmail.com> wrote in
>news:jno5689rcpb945sgd...@4ax.com:
>
>> If they're wearing green uniforms and fighting on foot with a shoulder
>> fired weapon they're infantry.
>>
>> They may have some special training and may even technically be under
>> someone else's control, but they're infantry...
>
>No, infantry closes with the enemy and destroys it. Artillery establishes
>such fire supremacy in the battle area that the enemy can neither interfere
>with our operations nor effectively develop his own. As part of the
>artillery, air defence artillery prevents the enemy from interfering from
>the air with our operations on the ground. ADA does not "close with the
>enemy," the enemy comes to him. The fact the Stinger operator is on his feet
>is because he is the mount.

That's doctrinal and local.

[Andrew Chaplin]

On Sep 26, 2:54 pm, Bill <blackuse...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:21:27 +0000 (UTC),Andrew Chaplin
>
>
>
>
>

> <ab.chap...@yourfinger.rogers.com> wrote:
> >Bill <blackuse...@gmail.com> wrote in

> >news:jno5689rcpb945sgd...@4ax.com:
>
> >> If they're wearing green uniforms and fighting on foot with a shoulder
> >> fired weapon they're infantry.
>
> >> They may have some special training and may even technically be under
> >> someone else's control, but they're infantry...
>
> >No, infantry closes with the enemy and destroys it. Artillery establishes
> >such fire supremacy in the battle area that the enemy can neither interfere
> >with our operations nor effectively develop his own. As part of the
> >artillery, air defence artillery prevents the enemy from interfering from
> >the air with our operations on the ground. ADA does not "close with the
> >enemy," the enemy comes to him. The fact the Stinger operator is on his feet
> >is because he is the mount.
>
> That's doctrinal and local.

Doctrinal, certainly. Your view would seem to be anachronistic. What
do you mean by local?

[Bill]

You have to ask who would use such a weapon, and why, in today's
world.


The chances of a major military power needing such a device are, at
best, slight.

Their current crop of opponents don't use fast jets...

The real customers would be the major terrorist organisation of the
world.

Therefore such weapons are very strictly controlled.

It is interesting that Stinger has not been updated in a quarter of a
century but the Russian 'Igla' and the British 'Starstreak' have both
been continually improved.

Both Igla and Starstreak are considerably less 'concealable' in a
civilian context than Stinger...

[peter skelton]

"Bill" wrote in message
news:mns668hki1s35pkcs...@4ax.com...

You are have taken Wiki seriously. Try this site:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/stinger.htm

[Bill]

That says the improvements desired and ordered in 2001 have been
cancelled.

[peter skelton]

"Bill" wrote in message
news:0lv668lsi23qrmfo2...@4ax.com...

It says the second phase of those improvements was
cancelled.

[Bill]

On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 18:30:56 -0400, "peter skelton"

<skel...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>"Bill" wrote in message

>news:0lv668lsi23qrmfo2...@4ax.com...

>
>>>Both Igla and Starstreak are considerably less
>>>'concealable' in a
>>civilian context than Stinger...
>>
>>You are have taken Wiki seriously. Try this site:
>>
>>http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/stinger.htm
>
>>That says the improvements desired and ordered in 2001 have
>>been
>cancelled.
>
>It says the second phase of those improvements was
>cancelled.

That's because there's no credible use for the thing in today's world,
except shooting down the 'good guys'.

The Soviet Union took early retirement on the grounds of ill health in
1989.

By 2001 it was fully apparent to everyone that the USA had no
reasonable enemy who could stand against them using conventional
weapons in a formal war.

Stinger became a weapon without a target for the foreseeable future...

Indeed, it became a liability because the consequences of them
slipping out of the hands of formal government ownership and into less
regulated areas is a nightmare populated by burning heavy passenger
aircraft and crashing police helicopters.

[Andrew Swallow]

On 26/09/2012 22:39, Bill wrote:
{snip}

> You have to ask who would use such a weapon, and why, in today's
> world.
>
>
> The chances of a major military power needing such a device are, at
> best, slight.
>
> Their current crop of opponents don't use fast jets...

{snip}

Any more trouble with Pakistan and the need to shoot down fast jets may
appear.

Andrew Swallow

[Bill]

Doubtful.

Their only really nasty aircraft is the F-16.

Following the great F-14 cock-up with Iran one assumes the USA has
arranged for some sort of problem that'll stop them being effective
against the USA.

Probably the sudden interruption of a supply of vital spare parts with
a very limited shelf life.

That or the sort of software problem that stops the undercarriage
being lowered on landing unless a new code number is typed in to the
console port every couple of weeks...

The rest of their aircraft are some superannuated Mirages and a shed
load of Chinese rubbish, probably fitted with the usual Chinese
clockwork avionics.

[peter skelton]

"Bill" wrote in message
news:h52768locr2jgc3an...@4ax.com...

On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 18:30:56 -0400, "peter skelton"
<skel...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>"Bill" wrote in message
>news:0lv668lsi23qrmfo2...@4ax.com...
>
>>>Both Igla and Starstreak are considerably less
>>>'concealable' in a
>>civilian context than Stinger...
>>
>>You are have taken Wiki seriously. Try this site:
>>
>>http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/stinger.htm
>
>>That says the improvements desired and ordered in 2001
>>have
>>been
>cancelled.
>
>It says the second phase of those improvements was
>cancelled.

That's because there's no credible use for the thing in
today's world,
except shooting down the 'good guys'.

<s>

So, unless 2001 was 25 years ago, you agree that there have
been upgrades in the last 25 years.

[Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.]

Good for you, Skelton...don't let the prick sidestep his lie...his usual "MO".
;-)

[Bill]

On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 20:03:17 -0400, "peter skelton"

<skel...@yahoo.ca> wrote:

>"Bill" wrote in message
>news:h52768locr2jgc3an...@4ax.com...
>
>On Wed, 26 Sep 2012 18:30:56 -0400, "peter skelton"
><skel...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>
>>"Bill" wrote in message
>>news:0lv668lsi23qrmfo2...@4ax.com...
>>
>>>>Both Igla and Starstreak are considerably less
>>>>'concealable' in a
>>>civilian context than Stinger...
>>>
>>>You are have taken Wiki seriously. Try this site:
>>>
>>>http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/land/stinger.htm
>>
>>>That says the improvements desired and ordered in 2001
>>>have
>>>been
>>cancelled.
>>
>>It says the second phase of those improvements was
>>cancelled.
>
>That's because there's no credible use for the thing in
>today's world,
>except shooting down the 'good guys'.
>
><s>
>
>So, unless 2001 was 25 years ago, you agree that there have
>been upgrades in the last 25 years.

Yes.

[Bill]

Come on shit-for-brains, make a constructive comment.

[peter skelton]

"Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D." wrote in message
news:IMydnUH4DYVGB_7N...@supernews.com...

Bill contributes, you side-step. I can understand your
jealousy on the few occasions when he uses your methods and
outstrips you.

[Dr. Vincent Quin, Ph.D.]

Yes, son, I am jealous.
;-)

[David E. Powell]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444620104578006201295641128.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

<http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10000872396390444620104578006201295641128.html?mod=googlenews_wsj>

Sounds a lot like the Iraqi uprising, the Anbar Awakening. Hope we can give them the support they need. Recon, support, aid, weapons, and they may do what the Iraqis did and pound the terrorists.

[Keith W]

While the 2004 upgrade didnt happen Stinger is still in the inventory
and is deployed.

Keith

[Bill]

On Thu, 27 Sep 2012 08:29:46 +0100, "Keith W"
<keithnosp...@demon.co.uk> wrote:

>While the 2004 upgrade didnt happen Stinger is still in the inventory
>and is deployed.

I know.

You do have to ask 'why' and 'where'.

Chances are they're in boxes somewhere.

I'd hate to think of them littering up bases in Afghanistan and so
available for pilfering...