Enlisted Marine Corps Aviators
Bill Kambic
pilots?
Bill Kambic
If, by any act, error, or omission, I have, intentionally or
unintentionally, displayed any breedist, disciplinist, sexist, racist,
culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, localist, ageist, lookist, ableist,
sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist, socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist,
phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist, or other violation of the rules of
political correctness, known or unknown, I am not sorry and I encourage you
to get over it.
Yofuri
For starters:
http://www.naval-air.org/exhibits/enlisted.asp
http://enlistedpilot.hypermart.net/silver.htm
Rick
--
My real e-mail address is: yof...@oakharbor.net
"Bill Kambic" <wka...@vic.com> wrote in message
news:3ed78...@news.vic.com...
Scott & Jeanie
Navy, Marines and Coast Guard (Naval Aviators all) had enlisted pilots, some
received commissions and others did not. The senior AP was known as the
"Gray Eagle."
SM USN Ret.
"Bill Kambic" <wka...@vic.com> wrote in message
news:3ed78...@news.vic.com...
Tom Schoene
> aviation pilots?
>
Yes.
There's a little dicussion of their role in Korea in this article (about
2/3s of the way down):
http://www.history.navy.mil/nan/2002/sep-oct/korea.html
--
Tom Schoene Replace "invalid" with "net" to e-mail
"If brave men and women never died, there would be nothing
special about bravery." -- Andy Rooney (attributed)
Ogden Johnson III
>OJ, III (or anyone else), did the Marine Corps ever have enlisted aviation
>pilots?
The Navy and the USMC had enlisted pilots, called Naval Aviation Pilot
[NAP] vice the Naval Aviator designation used for officers. A google
search on Naval Aviation Pilot, enlisted aviation pilot, etc., should
turn up a bunch of interesting stuff.
The program ran from the late-'20s/early-'30s through to, and into,
WWII. The program ended, IIRC during or shortly after the war.
During the war, many/most NAPs were commissioned, most temporarily,
some permanently. Some of them commanded squadrons. Those with temp
commissions reverted to their enlisted rank, still on flight status.
Most stayed in, to retire on 20 or whatever at their highest rank
held. A lot of them ended up commissioned again after going to
college, doing the "Bootstrap" program, etc. Some became Warrant
Officers [at one time, the Grey Eagle was CWO Henry Wildfang, who'd
been designated an NAP when Christ was a Corporal. They finally pried
him, kicking and screaming, out of his KC-130 cockpit and retired him
- in the late '70s, IIRC, but while I was at Cherry Point, so it
couldn't have been later than '82]. But a lot were satisfied with
staying enlisted, rising to MastGySgt/SgtMaj rank, and then retiring
on 30whatever at Captain's/Major's pay. My MAG-26 SgtMaj in the
mid-60s was an NAP. He'd qualified in jets in the early '50s, but by
the time I joined MAG-26, he'd been medically downgraded to
dual-piloted aircraft only. He still loved flying, and took every
opportunity he could to fly the group's C-117D when a mission for it
came up.
Disremember when the last, still enlisted, NAP - Navy or Marine,
retired {it was on one of the web pages I found during a google} but I
faintly remember that it was, like CWO Wildfang [he got NA designation
with his promotion to WO], either the very late '70s or the very very
early '80s.
OJ III
Leanne
"Bill Kambic" <wka...@vic.com> wrote in message news:3ed78...@news.vic.com...
> OJ, III (or anyone else), did the Marine Corps ever have enlisted aviation
> pilots?
Yes they did.... In the early 60's I flew in an all enlisted crew several times
in a R5D. (C54
for all the new kids)
I had a avionics officer,then a major, who showed me his logs when he flew
F4F's in
China in the late 40's as a SSGT. I think about the last was a Top Baker that
flew
helicopters in Vietnam.
Leanne
Dave in San Diego
<post snipped to comment on the sig>
> If, by any act, error, or omission, I have, intentionally or
> unintentionally, displayed any breedist, disciplinist, sexist,
> racist, culturalist, nationalist, regionalist, localist, ageist,
> lookist, ableist, sizeist, speciesist, intellectualist,
> socioeconomicist, ethnocentrist, phallocentrist, heteropatriarchalist,
> or other violation of the rules of political correctness, known or
> unknown, I am not sorry and I encourage you to get over it.
This is too good. A true gem. It's been added to my collection! Thanx.
Dave in San Diego
--
-
"For once you have tasted flight, you will walk the earth with your eyes
turned skyward;
For there you have been, and there you long to return."
Leonardo da Vinci
Ron
> Disremember when the last, still enlisted, NAP - Navy or Marine,
> retired {it was on one of the web pages I found during a google} but I
> faintly remember that it was, like CWO Wildfang [he got NA designation
> with his promotion to WO], either the very late '70s or the very very
> early '80s.
>
> OJ III
Wildfang, who was the last Marine NAP, retired in '79. A sailor, Robt.
"Nap" Jones outlasted him by two years and got the nickname from
being the only one remaining. Us'n named a NATTC building after
him in P'Cola two years ago.
Bill Kambic
I have met USN and USCG APs. but never any Marines. I suspected (bud was
not sure of) their existence.
Another question: Did the USAAF or USAF ever have enlisted aviation pilots?
If not, why not?
Ron
> As late as 1964, I was flying with enlisted aviators called "APs." The
> Navy, Marines and Coast Guard (Naval Aviators all) had enlisted pilots, some
> received commissions and others did not. The senior AP was known as the
> "Gray Eagle."
>
> SM USN Ret.
NAP (Naval Aviation Pilot) = a designation. AP (Aviation Pilot) = a rating.
The former were around from the beginning, (approx. 1916). The latter was
in effect for a few years in the 20s and again from '42 until '48, when the
program was abolished (those in place allowed to "grandfather" out --
last one in '81). All APs were NAPs, but not all NAPs were APs. In
the thirties, for instance, personnel records commonly referred to
enlisted pilots by primary MOS first, designation second. Aviation
Boatwain's Mate 1c./AP (NAP shortened to AP for administrative brevity).
In '42, all NAPs in place AND newly trained, became APs (the rating).
After '48 they all went back to NAP-designated MOSs as in the 30s, but
those who originated in the WWII program continued to refer to themselves
as APs. Then of course, there were the Marines, who were always NAPs,
I think, since AP was a Navy/Coast Guard-only system. My dad, who was
an Aviation Machinist's Mate, then Aviation Pilot, then Mustang/AP,
then commissioned Naval Aviator, didn't care what they called him, as
long as he got paid !!
-- rn
Jim Carriere
> Another question: Did the USAAF or USAF ever have enlisted aviation
pilots?
> If not, why not?
Off the top of my head, the USAAF (or maybe it was still USAAC) had a Flying
Sergeant program in the 1940s. One example that comes to mind is Chuck
Yeager...
Tex Houston
"Jim Carriere" <jcar...@isp01.net> wrote in message
news:bbdcvu$8de$1...@news.chatlink.com...
See "They Also Served" published by the Smithsonian Press.
Tex
Ogden Johnson III
><snipped for brevity>
< thanks, Ron>
>> Disremember when the last, still enlisted, NAP - Navy or Marine,
>> retired {it was on one of the web pages I found during a google} but I
>> faintly remember that it was, like CWO Wildfang [he got NA designation
>> with his promotion to WO], either the very late '70s or the very very
>> early '80s.
> Wildfang, who was the last Marine NAP, retired in '79. A sailor, Robt.
> "Nap" Jones outlasted him by two years and got the nickname from
> being the only one remaining. Us'n named a NATTC building after
> him in P'Cola two years ago.
Thanks, Ron. Nice to know that the memory cells haven't *totally*
gone south.
OJ III
Paul Livramento
whirlybird.news:3ed78...@news.vic.com...
Ron
>
> I have met USN and USCG APs. but never any Marines. I suspected (bud was
> not sure of) their existence.
>
> Another question: Did the USAAF or USAF ever have enlisted aviation pilots?
> If not, why not?
>
> Bill Kambic
USAAF, yes. USAF,no. The former had flying sergeants as previously
noted. Some early European theater bombers crewed exclusively by
enlisted, including pilot, co-pilot, B/N positions. Program curtailed,
apparently, due to officer-enlisted ego conflicts. Unlike USN/USMC/USCG
attrition program, Air Corps enlisted pilots offered either/or(accept
commission or cease flying). By '47, when USAF was formed from
Army Air Corps, there were no enlisted pilots remaining.
Interestingly, enlisted pilots were common in Japanese, German,
British, French, Russian and Fin forces -- prominent, even, in
Japanese Navy.
Anecedotal (no source): Marine squadron COs, during the banana
conflicts in the 30s preserved precious resources (airplanes) by
favoring NAP sergeants over newly-minted Marine Naval Aviators
because "they know what the hell they're doing." ;-)
-- rn
Joe Osman
Wasn't one reason for NAPs that they were not counted under the
Washington treaty because the treaty restricted the number of "flying
officers"?
The Marines had enlisted navigators in the 60s. Do they still have any?
Joe
Tom Schoene
news:3EE23200...@verizon.net
> Wasn't one reason for NAPs that they were not counted under the
> Washington treaty because the treaty restricted the number of "flying
> officers"?
Certainly not the Washington Naval Treaty; it makes no mention of personnel
at all. Neither does the 1930 London treaty.
It's possible that US legislation bringing the Washington Treaty into force
also imposed a limit on pilot officers, but the treaty itself does not.
Thomdenton
enlisted pilots (NAPs). This was reduced to 20% in 1932.
Ogden Johnson III
>The Marines had enlisted navigators in the 60s. Do they still have any?
They still did in the '80s. Actually, the fact that you ask tells me
you haven't kept up your MCA membership/Marine Corps Gazette
subscription. In last month's issue there was an article "KC-130
Community Changes" that was addressing the impact of the new KC-130J
[aka Gingrich's Gift]. One of those impacts is that the enlisted
navigator is going away, and being replaced with a third KC130 pilot
in the cockpit of the KC-130J. That pilot will man the "augment crew
station (ACS) to provide situational awareness support to the pilots
during periods of high task loading. ACS tasks include mission
information updates, radar operation, and aerial refueling pod
control." Later in the article, the HQMC weenie who wrote the article
lets slip the *real* [IMHO] reason for the change. KC-130 RAG will be
done by the USAF, who would be horrified at the USMC expecting them to
train an enlisted puke in ACS duties and operations rather than a
heavenly ordained officer pilot. [My words, not the weenie's; he
wrote it more circumspectly in pure Pentagonese.]
I suspect, but have no firm knowledge, that this change will be
retro'ed to the KC-130F/Rs for crew commonality, even though that
third pilot will have to navigate in the Fs/Rs. But he/she can
practice those ACS tasks, even without an ACS; providing mission
information updates, operating radar, and controlling the aerial
refueling pod, for when he/she gets a shot at the KC-130J. AIUI,
that's what the enlisted naviguessers do when they aren't
naviguessing.
OJ III
vincent p. norris
This isn't the answer to your question, but as a point of information,
there were enlisted navigators in the late '40s and I suspect a good
bit earlier than that.
vince norris
Ron
> Washington treaty because the treaty restricted the number of "flying
> officers"?
More likely reason for the existence of NAPs is that really early on the
hidebound "traditional" Navy (read Annapolis grads whose career goals
focussed on no less than command at sea) could divine no practical naval
use for flying machines. As a result, much of the construction, operation
and experimentation, was left to a few visionary mavericks and more than a
few "tradesmen" (mechanics, riggers, carpenters, etc.). Those who built 'em,
also flew 'em, in other words, so early naval aviation was heavily populated
by enlisted men. By the time aviation became "sexy" as a career path for
officers, enlisted pilots had already been around a pretty good while.
-- rn
Bill Kambic
> Wasn't one reason for NAPs that they were not counted under the
> Washington treaty because the treaty restricted the number of "flying
> officers"?
IIRC, the Treaties restricted equipment. The Treaty of Versailles
restricted the German Army to 100,00; that is the only personnel restriction
I am aware of.
There was a personnel restriction that might have been relevant, however,
and that was a Congressional limitation on the number of commissioned
officers. While there may have been restrictions on the total number of
enlisted personnel I think that number was determined more by $$$ than
Congressional fiat (but I might be mistaken). So, if you need pilots but
can't get any more officers then you can turn to senior E's to help "take up
the slack."
Ron
> senior E's to help "take up the slack."
>
> Bill Kambic
Indeed so, especially during the mobilizations for both world wars.
In fact, MUSTANGS (Men Under Service Temporarily Assigned Navy Gold
Stripes, according to naval historian Don Cruse) originated thus,
with CPOs, WOs and CWOs being advanced to Warrant Chief, Warrant
Ensign, Ltjg and Lt to meet WWI needs. It was common during WWII
and shortly after for APs (E-6) to advance to Ensign/AP, and Chief
APs (E-7) to Ltjg/AP, while continuing to build time in rate.
Demobilization after the war, produced some oddities with APs
reverting to prior enlisted ratings to retain flying status (Naval
Aviators were subject to transfer to Fleet Reserve, NAPs not).
Marine Warrant Officer Wildfang was notable among them. He was
orginally a Naval Aviator, attained rank of Major, and to avoid
transfer to reserves, got out for 89 days, came back as enlisted,
with NAP designator, and subsequently worked his way back up.
Joe Osman
Speaking of oddities, the father of another scout in my Boy
Scout troop in Millington, Tenn was an Airman 1st with Naval
Aviator wings. He had been a pilot on an aircraft carrier
who had sustained head injuries severe enough to make him
slightly retarded. Being an orphan, he had no family to take
care of him, so the Navy allowed him to remain in as an
enlisted man. Since promotion in the Navy required exams, he
had already reached the maximum rank that he could. This
would have been about 1962-1963.
Joe
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Ron
> pilots?
>
> Bill Kambic
An interesting historical aside to this discussion: During the open
cockpit, white silk scarf days, all Navy pilots were NAPs. The acronym
stood for Navy Air Pilot and all, officer and enlisted, were designated
thus. The officers, being officers, sought differentiation and won the
Naval Aviator distinction, while enlisted remained Navy Air Pilots. The
enlisted designation later morphed to Naval Aviation Pilot and remained
so for the duration.
Ron
I understand commissioning requires congressional approval, since the
duties, among others, may require that an individual be called upon
to represent the U.S. in dealings with foreign governments. The commission
therefore grants "agent" authority to perform such tasks.
But isn't the "warrant" also issued by congress? If so, what's the diff in
the authority/function between the two?
Leanne
> An interesting historical aside to this discussion: During the open
> cockpit, white silk scarf days, all Navy pilots were NAPs. The acronym
> stood for Navy Air Pilot and all, officer and enlisted, were designated
> thus. The officers, being officers, sought differentiation and won the
> Naval Aviator distinction, while enlisted remained Navy Air Pilots. The
> enlisted designation later morphed to Naval Aviation Pilot and remained
> so for the duration.
At the Naval Air Museum in Pensacola, there is a section devoted the NAP's.
There is a plaque the lists all of the NAP's, along with some memorabilia. It is
on the catwalk near the carrier below decks mock up and the WW II fighter base.
Leanne
Tom Cervo
>be
>enlisted pilots (NAPs). This was reduced to 20% in 1932.
Many were on duty in 1941, those who survived were soon commissioned. One such
was Marine ace Ken Walsh.
I saw a letter to the editor in an old Time or Newsweek, 1942. The writer was a
NAP who wanted flight duty, but was still doing a mechanic's job. Apparently
they got the non-hot jobs like relief pilot in PBY's and got picked last for
carrier duty.
vincent p. norris
I assume you mean temporarily. There were still enlisted pilots in
the early 1950s, and perhaps longer.
vince norris
Ogden Johnson III
Given what has been posted and substantiated in this thread, it would
appear a) that neither Tom Cervo nor vincent p. norris have been
following it and b) that both Tom Cervo and vincent p. norris [in
vincent's case, that "perhaps longer" extended into 1981] are full of
s[tuff].
OJ III
vincent p. norris
>>the early 1950s, and perhaps longer.
>
>Given what has been posted and substantiated in this thread, it would
>appear a) that neither Tom Cervo nor vincent p. norris have been
>following it and b) that both Tom Cervo and vincent p. norris [in
>vincent's case, that "perhaps longer" extended into 1981] are full of
>s[tuff].
>
>OJ III
I'm sure I missed some postings, OJ, but I don't recall saying that
enlisted pilots were still around in 1981. If I did, it was a typo.
vince norris
Ogden Johnson III
>>>I assume you mean temporarily. There were still enlisted pilots in
>>>the early 1950s, and perhaps longer.
>>Given what has been posted and substantiated in this thread, it would
>>appear a) that neither Tom Cervo nor vincent p. norris have been
>>following it and b) that both Tom Cervo and vincent p. norris [in
>>vincent's case, that "perhaps longer" extended into 1981] are full of
>>s[tuff].
>I'm sure I missed some postings, OJ, but I don't recall saying that
>enlisted pilots were still around in 1981. If I did, it was a typo.
I was trying to advise you that your "perhaps longer" was correct, in
that, as has been posted here in the thread, with a URL link to a site
that could verify it, the last NAP {who was Navy} retired from active
duty in 1981. So your "perhaps longer" extended to ~30 years. That
"perhaps" was the reason for including you in the "s[tuff]" comment.
30 years isn't a "perhaps" longer, it is a *lot* longer. ;-> Roughly
constituting *half* of the time US Navy and Marine enlisted pilots
existed and were flying.
OJ III
vincent p. norris
>that, as has been posted here in the thread, with a URL link to a site
>that could verify it, the last NAP {who was Navy} retired from active
>duty in 1981. So your "perhaps longer" extended to ~30 years. That
>"perhaps" was the reason for including you in the "s[tuff]" comment.
>30 years isn't a "perhaps" longer, it is a *lot* longer. ;-> Roughly
>constituting *half* of the time US Navy and Marine enlisted pilots
>existed and were flying.
>
>OJ III
Thanks for the clarification, OJ. I either missed or misread
something earlier.
vince norris