A friend and I were having an argument about the command structure onboard US Navy carriers. So I have a few questions, and I hope you can answer them. He got his info from the son of a former flight surgeon, whereas I got mine from reading this NG.
1. Is the Captain senior to the CAG?
2. Does the CAG have to do what the Captain says? (within reason, I read here the CAG reports to the CBGs CO, a Rear Admiral, I believe)
3. Who does the Air Boss report to? Is he under the CAG or the Captain?
Thanks in advance! -- Nick Laurent elkab...@earthlink.net ICQ: 11325679 AOL-IM: NicLaurent "Oh yeah! Well if you don't think that's funny, you can get out of your chair and blow me!" -Comedian Will Rogers to President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, responding to a comment the President made during his act
In article <6qorrj$1a...@birch.prod.itd.earthlink.net>, Nick Laurent
<elkab...@earthlink.net> wrote: > A friend and I were having an argument about the command structure > onboard US Navy carriers. So I have a few questions, and I hope you > can answer them. He got his info from the son of a former flight > surgeon, whereas I got mine from reading this NG.
> 1. Is the Captain senior to the CAG?
Typically, the CV CO is of an earlier year group (i.e., a more senior captain) than CAG. This won't necessarily be true, but generally the answer is Yes. A carrier CO who doesn't screw up will wear a star at his next job. A CAG who doesn't screw up still has a few more tickets to punch before he breathes the rarefied air of the O-7.
The Captain is *not* senior to CAG by virtue of his position as CO of the carrier. CAG commands a "tenant" command aboard the carrier. If a CV CO should happen to be technically junior to CAG, the situation would be even more politically interesting than it usually is.
> 2. Does the CAG have to do what the Captain says? (within reason, I > read here the CAG reports to the CBGs CO, a Rear Admiral, I believe)
In theory, the idea behind the modern CAG (which used to be called "super-CAG") is that he and the CV CO are equal. In practice, the CV CO is a bit more "equal." Yes, they both report directly to the one- or two-star admiral commanding the battle group.
In practice, it's possible for the admiral's chief of staff to be junior to both CAG and the Captain, and still make both their lives miserable. For that matter, I've seen COS's whose mission in life is to make the lives of everyone within a 75-mile radius miserable. Come to think of it, I never saw a COS who had any *other* mission in life.
> 3. Who does the Air Boss report to? Is he under the CAG or the > Captain?
He reports directly to the Captain. He is one of the "major" department heads, the head of the Air Department, which "owns" the flight deck, catapults, hangar bays, fueling operations, "yellow gear" and miscellaneous stuff. The Air Boss, the Chief Engineer, the Reactor Officer and the Operations Officer could be thought of as the "barons" of the ship. There are about ten other department heads, but they are not nearly as important. Except the Supply Officer *thinks* he is. -- From the catapult of J.D. Baldwin |+| "If anyone disagrees with anything I _,_ Finger bald...@netcom.com |+| say, I am quite prepared not only to _|70|___:::)=}- for PGP public |+| retract it, but also to deny under \ / key information. |+| oath that I ever said it." --T. Lehrer ***~~~~-------------------------------------------------------------------- ---
> A friend and I were having an argument about the command structure onboard > US Navy carriers. So I have a few questions, and I hope you can answer them. > He got his info from the son of a former flight surgeon, whereas I got mine > from reading this NG.
> 1. Is the Captain senior to the CAG?
> 2. Does the CAG have to do what the Captain says? (within reason, I read > here the CAG reports to the CBGs CO, a Rear Admiral, I believe)
> 3. Who does the Air Boss report to? Is he under the CAG or the Captain?
> Thanks in advance! > -- > Nick Laurent > elkab...@earthlink.net > ICQ: 11325679 AOL-IM: NicLaurent > "Oh yeah! Well if you don't think that's funny, you can get out of your > chair and blow me!" > -Comedian Will Rogers to President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, responding to > a comment the President made during his act
The "Captain" and the "CAG" are usually both O-6's which is the rank of Captain (Not to be confused with the position of Captain.) The Ship's Captain owns the ship, the ship's crew, and the flight deck. The Air Boss works for and reports to the ship's captain.
CAG owns the squadrons that are embarked onboard the ship, in so doing he also owns the planes. The squadron commanding officers report to CAG.
Most of the time when a battle group deploys, the battle group commander (an admiral) will be embarked aboard the carrier. The Captain and the CAG both report to him.
Where things get interesting is in the Combat Direction Center. CDC runs the radars, maintains the tactical picture and is in general responsible for the defense of the ship. The Tactical Action Officer runs CDC and has the authority to launch alert aircraft, fire missiles, and deploy aircraft as necessary to defend the ship. (I worked as one of the TAO's aboard USS Theodore Roosevelt during the early 90's.)
All of this is great in theory, but I will never forget one wonderful night when I was on watch as TAO and CAG called and told me to launch the ready alert aircraft. I immediately called the captain, who was on the bridge and told him that I was going to launch the alert. The captain then ordered me NOT to launch the alert aircraft. This my friends is what is known as an "O-6 Sandwich". What was I to do? Well, the answer was as usual quite simple and very political. The Captain signed MY fitness report, I did what the Captain said and didn't launch the alert.
As a former cargru staff bubba, and an O6 whose contemporaries are right in the thick of this, let me add a little amplification, and possibly a slightly different viewpoint:
>Typically, the CV CO is of an earlier year group (i.e., a more senior >captain) than CAG. This won't necessarily be true, but generally the >answer is Yes. A carrier CO who doesn't screw up will wear a star at >his next job. A CAG who doesn't screw up still has a few more tickets >to punch before he breathes the rarefied air of the O-7.
Following an O5 command tour, there is a look (usually right after your first look for O6) for CAG and deep draft command. Deep draft command guys start getting slated to their ships (LPHs, Oilers, AOEs) about the same time CAGs start getting slated to the different RAGs they have to go to. Following a successful deep draft tour, about 1/2 will go on to CV or LHA/LHD command. What complicates this is the NUCs, which now comprise the bulk of our CV fleet. Guys selected for NUC XO go in that pipeline, and are guaranteed a NUC CV, as there is a 1/1 screen/slot ratio.
Now your CAG finishes his tour, he MAY get a CV. I can't think of a single * or ** that I know who was post CAG, and yet made RADM w/o a CV CO tour. May be wrong, just can't think of one. Suffice it to say, that the air is pretty thin up here, and the rising NUC equation just makes it that much harder. My current * boss is a helo guy who had Kearsarge (LHD) during the O'Grady rescue. But a CAG tour is NOT a ticket to *. In fact, I can think of several who did not make it.
>In practice, it's possible for the admiral's chief of staff to be >junior to both CAG and the Captain, and still make both their lives >miserable. For that matter, I've seen COS's whose mission in life is >to make the lives of everyone within a 75-mile radius miserable. Come >to think of it, I never saw a COS who had any *other* mission in life.
One important difference -- CARGRU COS is 99 times out of 100, going nowhere after there, while the CO and CAG do have life. COS also may or may not be an aviator, while CAG and the CV CO are. If there is a aviator Flag, then his COS will almost always (at least in my experience) be a shoe or bubble head. Shoe BG commander? Aviator COS -- at least usually. Good friend (aviator) was CCG 1 (aviator RADM) COS when he fleeted up from N3, but the current COS is a shoe.
>and miscellaneous stuff. The Air Boss, the Chief Engineer, the >Reactor Officer and the Operations Officer could be thought of as the >"barons" of the ship. There are about ten other department heads, but >they are not nearly as important. Except the Supply Officer *thinks*
Most navigators I know might find disagreement with this. Truth is that the Boss is going nowhere after that (I mean just stands no chance of making flag), and the OpsO probably isn't either -- except one OpsO I knew went to CAG to Flag COS to C3F N3 to co-pilot for Alaska Airlines. Navigators do get deep drafts and on to CVs and flag.
>The Captain is *not* senior to CAG by virtue of his position as CO of >the carrier. CAG commands a "tenant" command aboard the carrier. If >a CV CO should happen to be technically junior to CAG, the situation >would be even more politically interesting than it usually is.
>> 2. Does the CAG have to do what the Captain says? (within reason, I >> read here the CAG reports to the CBGs CO, a Rear Admiral, I believe)
>In theory, the idea behind the modern CAG (which used to be called >"super-CAG") is that he and the CV CO are equal. In practice, the CV >CO is a bit more "equal." Yes, they both report directly to the one- >or two-star admiral commanding the battle group.
Didn't used to be a problem on the old 27C's. Skipper of the ship was always a Captain. CAG almost always a Commander.
>Now your CAG finishes his tour, he MAY get a CV. I can't think of a single >* or ** that I know who was post CAG, and yet made RADM w/o a CV CO tour. >May be wrong, just can't think of one.
How does CNO ADM J.L. Johnson rate? Two tours as a CAG (his second as a "Super" CAG billet), then on to command a CarGru as a *. To the best of my knowledge - he never drove a boat of any kind.
I believe that as an 0-6 if you go the CAG route today (since the CAG billet was made a major sea command in '86) - you won't command a CV, or any boat. But you will stay in the cockpit longer.
> Suffice it to say, that the air is >pretty thin up here, and the rising NUC equation just makes it that much >harder. My current * boss is a helo guy who had Kearsarge (LHD) during the >O'Grady rescue.
that sounds like Chris Cole - still NavForKorea?
> But a CAG tour is NOT a ticket to *. In fact, I can think >of several who did not make it.
How true - just as a CV CO tour is not a ticket to *.
>>Now your CAG finishes his tour, he MAY get a CV. I can't think of a single >>* or ** that I know who was post CAG, and yet made RADM w/o a CV CO tour. >>May be wrong, just can't think of one.
>How does CNO ADM J.L. Johnson rate? Two tours as a CAG (his second as a >"Super" CAG billet), then on to command a CarGru as a *. To the best of my >knowledge - he never drove a boat of any kind.
Also Fred Lewis , the first "Super CAG" (IIRC) went on to Flag without a CV command.
In article <6qqbij$fs...@lal.interserv.com>, Scott MacLeod
<s_macleod-nos...@csi.com> wrote: > >and miscellaneous stuff. The Air Boss, the Chief Engineer, the > >Reactor Officer and the Operations Officer could be thought of as the > >"barons" of the ship. There are about ten other department heads, but > >they are not nearly as important. Except the Supply Officer *thinks*
> Most navigators I know might find disagreement with this. Truth is > that the Boss is going nowhere after that (I mean just stands no > chance of making flag), and the OpsO probably isn't either -- except > one OpsO I knew went to CAG to Flag COS to C3F N3 to co-pilot for > Alaska Airlines. Navigators do get deep drafts and on to CVs and > flag.
I should have mentioned the Navigator. He is *extremely* important as an individual -- on most ships, either he or the Captain are on the bridge at all times. I would say that, as far as the safe handling of the ship is concerned, he is probably more trusted than the XO in most cases. But in his role as a department head, he's not all that big a noise. He only has, what? -- ten or twenty guys working for him? Maybe twenty-five.
But yes, the Navigator on a CV is definitely a fast-track billet. Assistant Navigator (for a "dissociated sea tour" lieutenant) even more so. -- From the catapult of J.D. Baldwin |+| "If anyone disagrees with anything I _,_ Finger bald...@netcom.com |+| say, I am quite prepared not only to _|70|___:::)=}- for PGP public |+| retract it, but also to deny under \ / key information. |+| oath that I ever said it." --T. Lehrer ***~~~~-------------------------------------------------------------------- ---
> A friend and I were having an argument about the command structure onboard > US Navy carriers. So I have a few questions, and I hope you can answer them. > He got his info from the son of a former flight surgeon, whereas I got mine > from reading this NG.
> 1. Is the Captain senior to the CAG?
> 2. Does the CAG have to do what the Captain says? (within reason, I read > here the CAG reports to the CBGs CO, a Rear Admiral, I believe)
> 3. Who does the Air Boss report to? Is he under the CAG or the Captain?
The Captain of the carrier is a senior captain. He has already served as Captain of another deep draft ship before being assigned to a carrier.
The CAG is a senior commander or junior captain. He is one of the Captain's department heads (head of the Air Wing). He has not (normally) had previous ship command. He is a former squadron Commanding Officer. All of the Air Wing commanding officers and officers-in-charge (of detachments) report to him.
The AirBoss is a senior commander. He is also one of the department heads (head of the Air Department). He is a former squadron Commanding Officer.
There are several more department heads (medical, supply, deck, weapons, etc. etc.)
If an admiral is embarked, the Captain will of course report to him, altho running the ship is still the Captain's responsibility.
In article <ExKzLE....@news.boeing.com>, pie...@pat.mdc.com (Gun One) writes: >The CAG is a senior commander or junior captain. He is one of the >Captain's department heads (head of the Air Wing).
With the "Super CAG" billet upgrade effective in 1986, I believe the CAG (who now is always a Captain - perhaps still a junior Captain) is no longer considered a CV depart. head. He doesn't report to the CV skipper, but to the CVBG RADM.
> He has not (normally) >had previous ship command. He is a former squadron Commanding Officer. >All of the Air Wing commanding officers and officers-in-charge (of >detachments) report to him.
In article <1998081212251200.IAA04...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, lcdr1...@aol.com
(LCDR1635) writes: >>>Now your CAG finishes his tour, he MAY get a CV. I can't think of a single >>>* or ** that I know who was post CAG, and yet made RADM w/o a CV CO tour. >>>May be wrong, just can't think of one.
>>How does CNO ADM J.L. Johnson rate? Two tours as a CAG (his second as a >>"Super" CAG billet), then on to command a CarGru as a *. To the best of my >>knowledge - he never drove a boat of any kind.
>Also Fred Lewis , the first "Super CAG" (IIRC) went on to Flag without a CV >command.
yup - Fred was the first "Super CAG" (CVW-8 JAN 86 - JUL 87). His relief was a guy named Joe Prueher <g>. Joe made flag of course, and to the best of my knowledge never drove a boat either.
To date I'm not aware of any "Super CAG" who became a boat driver - whether they made flag or not.
>>>How does CNO ADM J.L. Johnson rate? Two tours as a CAG (his second as a >>>"Super" CAG billet), then on to command a CarGru as a *. To the best of my >>>knowledge - he never drove a boat of any kind.
I think this is why the "super-CAG" deal, at least as it existed in the 80s, is pretty well dead. The power's that be decided that flag w/o a ship CO tour is pretty much a non-starter. I can't think of a single aviator *** or below who didn't have a ship tour -- Jim Ellis, Herb Browne, Lyle Bien -- please, I am suffering from early onset of CRS and may have missed someone.
> I think this is why the "super-CAG" deal, at least as it existed in the 80s, > is pretty well dead. The power's that be decided that flag w/o a ship CO > tour is pretty much a non-starter. I can't think of a single aviator *** or > below who didn't have a ship tour -- Jim Ellis, Herb Browne, Lyle Bien -- > please, I am suffering from early onset of CRS and may have missed someone.
Wooody sez:
When did Lyle Bien have a "ship tour?" His major command ticket before making flag was COMCARAIRWING FIFTEEN.
In article <1998081220125700.QAA23...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, mic...@aol.com (MICOMA) writes:
|> In article <ExKzLE....@news.boeing.com>, pie...@pat.mdc.com (Gun One) writes: |> |> >The CAG is a senior commander or junior captain. He is one of the |> >Captain's department heads (head of the Air Wing). |> |> With the "Super CAG" billet upgrade effective in 1986, I believe the CAG (who |> now is always a Captain - perhaps still a junior Captain) is no longer |> considered a CV depart. head. He doesn't report to the CV skipper, but to the |> CVBG RADM. |> |> > He has not (normally) |> >had previous ship command. He is a former squadron Commanding Officer. |> >All of the Air Wing commanding officers and officers-in-charge (of |> >detachments) report to him.
Ooops. Shoulda said "It usta beee .... "
-gun one long of tooth, grey of hair (but still flat of belly) :-)
In article <35D2ECEE.3...@lemoorenet.com>, Woody <dugne...@lemoorenet.com> writes:
>Scott MacLeod wrote:
>> I think this is why the "super-CAG" deal, at least as it existed in the >80s, >> is pretty well dead. The power's that be decided that flag w/o a ship CO >> tour is pretty much a non-starter. I can't think of a single aviator *** >or >> below who didn't have a ship tour -- Jim Ellis, Herb Browne, Lyle Bien -- >> please, I am suffering from early onset of CRS and may have missed someone.
>Wooody sez:
>When did Lyle Bien have a "ship tour?" His major command ticket before >making flag was COMCARAIRWING FIFTEEN.
Bien had in fact two tours as CAG-15 - MAY to SEP 87 & JUN 89 to JUL 91. I can't locate any boat tour (CV or amphib-type) for him.
Ellis & Browne indeed got boat tours - but I can't locate any CAG tours for them.
Not to beat a dead horse, but I have yet to see any "Super CAG" get a boat tour - period - regardless if they make flag or not. And turn that around to include no boat drivers having been "Super CAGs" - regardless if they make flag or not.
When the CAG billet was upgraded (whether you like it or not<g>), that created yet another path for aviators; one which would not include ship tours.
The Captain and Cag are equals. The Captain is in charge of the ship, the CAG has the air wing. The CAG does not "work" for the captain. The Air boss does. Years ago, the CAG was the rank of Commander. At that time he was junior to the ship's CO. Now, both are ranks of Captain. The Air Boss is usually a CDR who promotes to CAPT if he's lucky. Having said all that, the ship's CO has the final say of what goes on onboard the ship. CAG is responsible for what goes on in the air.
Nick Laurent wrote: > A friend and I were having an argument about the command structure onboard > US Navy carriers. So I have a few questions, and I hope you can answer them. > He got his info from the son of a former flight surgeon, whereas I got mine > from reading this NG.
> 1. Is the Captain senior to the CAG?
> 2. Does the CAG have to do what the Captain says? (within reason, I read > here the CAG reports to the CBGs CO, a Rear Admiral, I believe)
> 3. Who does the Air Boss report to? Is he under the CAG or the Captain?
> Thanks in advance! > -- > Nick Laurent > elkab...@earthlink.net > ICQ: 11325679 AOL-IM: NicLaurent > "Oh yeah! Well if you don't think that's funny, you can get out of your > chair and blow me!" > -Comedian Will Rogers to President Franklin Delano Roosevelt, responding to > a comment the President made during his act
My understanding of the CV CO vs CAG paths is that they are separate. Either you get a Deputy CAG (post-squadron command 05) to CAG (06) path or a CV XO (post-squadron command 05) to deep draft CO to CV CO path. The split comes after a squadron command and the discriminator seems to be that water walker FAGs (fighter/attack guys) get CAGS and lesser FAGs and others get carriers. No disrespect is intended to the carrier COs, since one of my former squadron mates is currently in command of a carrier and has been selected for his first star (flag assignment TBD). Successful command of either an air wing or a carrier seems to lead to selection for Rear Admiral (Lower Half), but the odds seem to favor FAGs beyond the first star. Very few VS, VAW, HS, VAQ, or VP bubbas ever seem to get three stars. Take away the mission and reduce the promotion percentage -- what a surprise. Interestingly, most of the non-fighter/ attack communities can't meet their pilot retention goals. Hmmmm.
> > I think this is why the "super-CAG" deal, at least as it existed in the 80s, > > is pretty well dead. The power's that be decided that flag w/o a ship CO > > tour is pretty much a non-starter. I can't think of a single aviator *** or > > below who didn't have a ship tour -- Jim Ellis, Herb Browne, Lyle Bien -- > > please, I am suffering from early onset of CRS and may have missed someone.
> Wooody sez:
> When did Lyle Bien have a "ship tour?" His major command ticket before > making flag was COMCARAIRWING FIFTEEN.
Michael Nott <"michael.n...@worldnet.att.net"@worldnet.att.net> wrote: >beyond the first star. Very few VS, VAW, HS, VAQ, or VP bubbas ever >seem to get three stars. Take away the mission and reduce the promotion >percentage -- what a surprise. Interestingly, most of the non-fighter/ >attack communities can't meet their pilot retention goals. Hmmmm.
Hmm, I've noticed a lot of the upper hierarchy (CNO, those in command posts of various schools/training, etc), at least the high visibility jobs, are ex-jet types. I just figured this might be because those who tend to do well on evaluations will advance faster, but at the same time, if you have an excellent or outstanding record, and get first pick of available billets, from what I understand, those in the top of each class go for "fun" jobs (um, like F-14 jock).
I hadn't thought of it the other way, that people crewing the "other" aircraft quit more, so there are less of them around to be promoted to flag. (Hmm, not getting enough recognition?).
Anybody else agree with me, or am I barking up the wrong tree? I really am deeply interested in understanding the "people" side of the Navy. Believe me, I'm smart enough to know that there's a lot more to it than Maverick and Goose.
I'm aware there are a few exceptions to the "do well, pick jets" trend- aircrew who have their pick of billets and opt for less glamorous jobs, like P-3, flight instructor, but this is usually to be closer to one's family by avoiding fleet duty.
