Is there a legal way to REQUIRE the California DMV to provide specific data?

[Billy B.]

Is there a way to legally require the California DMV to provide data?

The data we want is related to the SIZE of motorcycles taking the riding
test, and the result of that test (pass or fail).

The test is an unrealistic circus act, called the "lollipop" or "keyhole"
based on what it looks like:
http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/440/dmvkeyholesantaclaracasgk6.jpg

Specifically, we want to know the answer to the question:
Q: What size motorcycles take the test & whether they pass or fail.

The reason we want to know is that it is our hypothesis that the
system is purposefully skewed to pass tiny bikes and fail larger bikes -
but our hypothesis isn't the point - the point is HOW TO GET THE DATA?

Is there a legal way to REQUIRE the California DMV to provide that data?

[gpsman]

On Feb 27, 11:14 pm, "Billy B." <bbi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Specifically, we want to know the answer to the question:
> Q: What size motorcycles take the test & whether they pass or fail.
>
> The reason we want to know is that it is our hypothesis that the
> system is purposefully skewed to pass tiny bikes and fail larger bikes -
> but our hypothesis isn't the point - the point is HOW TO GET THE DATA?
>
> Is there a legal way to REQUIRE the California DMV to provide that data?

Beyond the grossly fallacious nature of your theory, which the data
you stipulate would not begin to support, you haven't established a
need to legally compel the state to provide it.
-----

- gpsman

[Billy B.]

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 22:06:04 -0800, gpsman wrote:

> Beyond the grossly fallacious nature of your theory, which the data
> you stipulate would not begin to support, you haven't established a
> need to legally compel the state to provide it.

Well, you didn't answer the question.

But, to answer YOUR assumed question, who says you have to
KNOW the answer before you can even ask the question.

The question is what bikes pass/fail and what size are they?

Whether or not my "assumption" of the answer (or your assumption,
or anyone elses' assumption) is correct is meaningless to the
question.

I repeat the question:
Does anyone know the actual data of what bikes pass and fail?

[gpsman]

On Feb 28, 1:27 am, "Billy B." <bbi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 22:06:04 -0800, gpsman wrote:
> > you haven't established a
> > need to legally compel the state to provide it.
>
> Well, you didn't answer the question.
>

> I repeat the question:
> Does anyone know the actual data of what bikes pass and fail?

That's a different question.
-----

- gpsman

[AD]

having winged the test by virtue of taking advantage of cal subsidized
moto course
and riding the pig of a 900cc ninja afterwards I can tell you this:

it could be skewed and it very well SHOULD remain the way that it is.
I crashed 14 times over 2 years totalling the bike.

Starting to ride on a heavy bike is the most idiotic thing one could
possibly do.

I could not possibly see how 500-650cc bike would not be adequate for
passing the exam and riding a few years afterwards

[Billy B.]

On Wed, 27 Feb 2013 22:44:26 -0800, gpsman wrote:

>> Does anyone know the actual data of what bikes pass and fail?
> That's a different question.

Well, the data is what we're after, no matter how we get it.

Any ideas?

[gpsman]

My first idea is to forget it, but a letter is third and a phone call
is second.
-----

- gpsman

[Tegger]

"Billy B." <bbi...@yahoo.com> wrote in news:512f189e$0$18125$afc3...@read01.usenet4all.se:

You need to file a CPRA request.It's similar to a federal
FOIA (Freedom of Information Act) request.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Public_Records_Act>

Here's one page on how to do it:
<http://michaelreiterlaw.wordpress.com/2011/03/31/california-public-records-act-an-introduction-to-using-the-act-in-san-bernardino-county-and-riverside-county/>

More, here:
<https://www.google.com/#hl=en&sugexp=les%3B&gs_rn=5&gs_ri=psy-ab&tok=PwTHkrbZfoakY927gupkRw&pq=california%20foia&cp=25&gs_id=1ak&xhr=t&q=california+public+request+act&es_nrs=true&pf=p&sclient=psy-ab&oq=california+public+request&gs_l=&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&bvm=bv.43148975,d.b2I&fp=f1ea5133a23f252d&biw=2560&bih=1296>

I got all those results from Google.

--
Tegger

[gpsman]

On Feb 28, 3:13 am, AD <isq...@gmail.com> wrote:
> having winged the test by virtue of taking advantage of cal subsidized
> moto course
> and riding the pig of a 900cc ninja afterwards I can tell you this:
>
> it could be skewed and it very well SHOULD remain the way that it is.
> I crashed 14 times over 2 years totalling the bike.

My cousin bought the first 900 Ninja of a local dealer. Looong story
short, I'd long before lost interest in bikes, but he insisted I take
a ride. He lived so far out in the country he -still- lives in the
country.

So I putt out to the state highway and run it up the road a little
bit. He's all excited about my reaction, mistakenly so, I hadn't
impressed myself.

He asks where I shifted, and I admit I didn't pay a damn bit of
attention, I had no interest in wringing it out. He says, it red
lines at 11 grand (which dropped my jaw, and I had to go look at the
tach), and doesn't even turn-on until 6! Take it back out and "ride"
it!

So I do, just to make him happy. I rip through the gears and I'm
hanging on for fucking dear life- errr reehreehreehreehreeeeeeee. It
sounded like going through the gears on my old 100cc two-stroke Husky,
but faster.

When that thing hit 6 grand it was like afterburner/s. I glance at my
speed and I'm doing 140 in what seemed like 7 seconds, but it felt
like it was on rails.

This guy was no great shakes at driving a car, and knew it, and I told
him he better get rid of it before he killed himself, that thing was 2
times too much bike for any rider I ever knew.

He says you're not the first one to say that, take it. I don't have
time to ride it and it's rotting in the barn, bring it back when
you're done with it.

So I rode it all summer, gave it back to him and he proceeded to drop
it several times, first breaking an arm, then a collar bone (which he
jokingly said proved he was becoming a better rider) but couldn't take
a hint until he broke a vertebra, which is a whole other story I'll
spare readers.
-----

- gpsman

[gpsman]

On Feb 28, 7:49 am, Tegger <inva...@example.com> wrote:
>
> I got all those results from Google.

Fromwhatnow...?!
-----

- gpsman

[Billy B.]

On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:49:43 +0000, Tegger wrote:

> You need to file a CPRA request

Ah, thanks. I thought we just called someone at the DMV.
I will follow up and post back the results (if any).

thanks!

[Billy B.]

On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 04:09:50 -0800, gpsman wrote:

> My first idea is to forget it, but a letter is third
> and a phone call is second.

Bing! You win on two of the three! :)

Given this:
- http://dmv.ca.gov/about/profile/official.pdf
- Source: DMV Forecasting Unit, telephone 916-657-8008

I spoke with Brock today in "statistics forecasting", at that
telephone number above. He was a nice guy, but he never heard of
the MSF part of the motorcycle test, so, he asked me to send
him a snail mail letter asking for whatever we wanted by way
of statistics and he'd see what he can get for us.

What information would tell us what we need to know?

How's this for starters?

1. Number of motorcycle licenses issued in 2012 (or any recent year)
2. Breakdown of HOW they passed their driving test (MSF or DMV)
3. Number of motorcycle riders who ATTEMPTED the DMV test.
4. Pass/fail statistics and motorcycle SIZE for those statistics.

How's that sound for the basic statistics we'd want to know?

[Epic Proportions]

Billy B. wrote:

> 1. Number of motorcycle licenses issued in 2012 (or any recent year)
> 2. Breakdown of HOW they passed their driving test (MSF or DMV)
> 3. Number of motorcycle riders who ATTEMPTED the DMV test.
> 4. Pass/fail statistics and motorcycle SIZE for those statistics.
>
> How's that sound for the basic statistics we'd want to know?

He's probably going to want to know if you want M1 or M2.

[gpsman]

On Feb 28, 4:41 pm, "Billy B." <bbi...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Thu, 28 Feb 2013 04:09:50 -0800, gpsman wrote:
> > My first idea is to forget it, but a letter is third
> > and a phone call is second.
>
> Bing! You win on two of the three!  :)

I'm a genus. That wasn't so hard, was it?

> Given this:
> -http://dmv.ca.gov/about/profile/official.pdf

> - Source: DMV Forecasting Unit, telephone 916-657-8008
>
> I spoke with Brock today in "statistics forecasting", at that
> telephone number above. He was a nice guy, but he never heard of
> the MSF part of the motorcycle test, so, he asked me to send
> him a snail mail letter asking for whatever we wanted by way
> of statistics and he'd see what he can get for us.

Reports I've read all suggest CA DMV is incredibly responsive to
citizen queries.

> What information would tell us what we need to know?
>
> How's this for starters?
>
> 1. Number of motorcycle licenses issued in 2012 (or any recent year)
> 2. Breakdown of HOW they passed their driving test (MSF or DMV)
> 3. Number of motorcycle riders who ATTEMPTED the DMV test.
> 4. Pass/fail statistics and motorcycle SIZE for those statistics.
>
> How's that sound for the basic statistics we'd want to know?

Sounds great, according to your fulfilling your wishes, but combined
and sorted and having the shit analyzed out of it still isn't going to
offer a shred of support for your theory-- "that the system is
purposefully skewed to pass tiny bikes and fail larger bikes".

Your theory is a "non sequitur"; a "single-cause fallacy" and "false
dilemma". When you start from a "false premise" you can end up
anywhere, but, hey, knock yourself out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non_sequitur_%28logic%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy_of_the_single_cause
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_premise
-----

- gpsman

[AD]

I rode bikes at soporific 4-5 k rpm,
so a "pure sport" bike would be a poor fit for myself

It's weird to see 11k redline on 900cc machinery
I thought of that as 250-500cc territory

The bike engine tech is busy jumping in hayabusa footsteps
I wonder how tire guys are keeping up (or don't)
and I wonder if we would see a 1k moto tire (that
would hopefully last longer than a $1k NY pizza)

> He says you're not the first one to say that, take it. I don't have
> time to ride it and it's rotting in the barn, bring it back when
> you're done with it.
>
> So I rode it all summer, gave it back to him and he proceeded to drop

You knew when to get out ;-)

[Nate Nagel]

On 03/01/2013 02:02 AM, Anton Success wrote:
>>
>> When that thing hit 6 grand it was like afterburner/s. I glance at my
>> speed and I'm doing 140 in what seemed like 7 seconds, but it felt
>> like it was on rails.
>>

> I rode bikes at soporific 4-5 k rpm,
> so a "pure sport" bike would be a poor fit for myself
>

> but it's weird to see 11k redline on 900cc machinery

> I thought of that as 250-500cc territory
>

> the bike engine tech is busy jumping in hayabusa footsteps
> i wonder how tire guys are keeping up (or don't)
> I wonder if we would see a 1k moto tire.
> would hopefully last longer than $1k NY pizza though

>
>> This guy was no great shakes at driving a car, and knew it, and I told
>> him he better get rid of it before he killed himself, that thing was 2
>> times too much bike for any rider I ever knew.
>>

> sounds like alec giness killing james dean

>
>> He says you're not the first one to say that, take it. I don't have
>> time to ride it and it's rotting in the barn, bring it back when
>> you're done with it.
>>
>> So I rode it all summer, gave it back to him and he proceeded to drop
>> it several times, first breaking an arm, then a collar bone (which he
>> jokingly said proved he was becoming a better rider) but couldn't take
>> a hint until he broke a vertebra, which is a whole other story I'll
>> spare readers.
>

> You KNEW when to get out ;-) and
> he was riding without proper gear I take it
>

I don't know that "proper gear" will save you from anything but road
rash... but don't sell it short, road rash sucks.

I actually just had that conversation with a sales guy at a motorcycle
shop the other day, bought myself a cheap jacket and he mentioned that a
lot of people don't see the need until after they'd wrecked and just
ride with flimsy little vests; I laughed and told him that I'd dropped a
bicycle on pavement before - was an equipment failure, I was originally
doing maybe 35-40ish but managed to get it slowed down a little before I
actually lost it, I told him that I had no desire to repeat the
experience at twice the speed unless I had some protection, he said that
was a good sales pitch and he might use it someday :)

nate

--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel

[AD]

If I were to scrapping for money I'd buy it in this order
1. gloves
2. boots
3. pants (or a single piece, depending on local climate and riding
patterns)
4. jacket
5. helmet

the jacket is distant 4th on the list

the most useless gear purchase : "the turtle" aka vest with hard back
armor.
Hardly ever wore it.

[Nate Nagel]

Probably true. I have gloves and I have some work boots that will
suffice for now. I bought the jacket before pants because as surprising
as it may be I don't have the motorcycle endorsement on my license and a
coworker and I are taking the rider course next month so we both can get
them (mostly his doing, he wants to go on a motorcycle trip with his family)

I have jeans and Carhartt pants which will be acceptable for class
purposes but I figure I'll probably end up buying a cheap bike this
spring - been talking about doing it for ages - and a proper motorcycle
jacket is nice because it will fit tightly and not flap like e.g. a
Carhartt. (pretty much everything flaps on me; clothing manufacturers
don't seem to think that people my height should weigh less than 300 lbs...)

[gpsman]

On Mar 5, 2:27 am, AD <isq...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> If I were to scrapping for money I'd buy it in this order
> 1. gloves
> 2. boots
> 3. pants (or a single piece, depending on local climate and riding
> patterns)
> 4. jacket
> 5. helmet
>
> the jacket is distant 4th on the list

Well, that may make sense for you, there seems to be little in that
noggin to protect.
------

- gpsman

[gpsman]

On Mar 5, 7:34 am, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
>
> I have jeans and Carhartt pants which will be acceptable for class
> purposes but I figure I'll probably end up buying a cheap bike this
> spring - been talking about doing it for ages

You, on a motorcycle...??? That's hilarious.

We'll see how well your mind reading tricks work on a bike.

Excuse me, I have to create a Google News Alert now, I wouldn't want
to forget.
-----

- gpsman

[Nate Nagel]

Don't be so bitter just because I'm smarter, more competent, and most
likely better looking than you. If you're going to be bitter at
everyone who is, you'll just be miserable all the time.

[gpsman]

On Mar 6, 8:44 am, Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote:
> On 03/05/2013 08:45 AM, gpsman wrote:
>
> > On Mar 5, 2:27 am, AD <isq...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >> If I were to scrapping for money I'd buy it in this order
> >> 1. gloves
> >> 2. boots
> >> 3. pants (or a single piece, depending on local climate and riding
> >> patterns)
> >> 4. jacket
> >> 5. helmet
>
> >> the jacket is distant 4th on the list
>
> > Well, that may make sense for you, there seems to be little in that
> > noggin to protect.
>
> Don't be so bitter just because I'm smarter, more competent, and most
> likely better looking than you.  If you're going to be bitter at
> everyone who is, you'll just be miserable all the time.

Yeah, sure signs of smarts and competence and good looks is mistaking
a post directed toward another as to one's self, combined with yet
another of many repeated demonstrations over several years of a total
inability to use a kill file of the newsreader one has paid money for,
along with yet another post of tens of thousands with the obvious sole
intent of self-aggrandizement, that has nothing to do with the
subject...

You must be smarter than me, I'm having difficulty adequately
describing your genius.
-----

- gpsman

[Nate Nagel]

You have difficulty speaking coherently.

Haven't you already demonstrated your intellectual limitations enough
for one lifetime? Do you actually have any knowledge about anything, or
do you just live to post insults?