antifreeze, red color
Allan Fontanilla
it's red in color. Should I stick with Toyota antifreeze or can I go
with an after market brand? Can it be mixed with green antifreeze? What
should I expect to pay for Toyota red antifreeze?
Thanks,
Allan
vailchalet2
snowbal
compatable, stick with the factory coolent.
vailchalet2 <vailc...@aol.comnojunk> wrote in message
news:20010510031317...@ng-mg1.aol.com...
Kevin Mouton
Do not mix with green coolant, the two are not compatible. You may be
able to find an after market coolant that meets Toyota specs, but I
highly recommend using OEM.
--
WARNING:
Return address may contain antispam. Take out the garbage to reply.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
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"If women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy"
Red Green
TANJWarrior
I worked at a local Toyota dealership and you will need to purchase Toyota
antifreeze. It has special properties that other anitfreezes don't. I
can't tell you if you drained out the Toyota antifreeze and changed over to
regular is this will hurt it. The reps told us at the shop that customers
could do this after flushing but it might shorten the cooling system life.
Sorry...just passing on what I was told.
It seems that every manufacturer wants you to buy their products and even
being an ex-mechanic wonder if this is another trick.
"Allan Fontanilla" <al...@fontanilla.com> wrote in message
news:3AFA2F2E...@fontanilla.com...
do...@soco.agilent.com
> Everyone is correct. Do Not Mix With Another Antifreeze!
> I worked at a local Toyota dealership and you will need to purchase Toyota
> antifreeze. It has special properties that other anitfreezes don't. I
> can't tell you if you drained out the Toyota antifreeze and changed over to
> regular is this will hurt it. The reps told us at the shop that customers
> could do this after flushing but it might shorten the cooling system life.
> Sorry...just passing on what I was told.
> It seems that every manufacturer wants you to buy their products and even
> being an ex-mechanic wonder if this is another trick.
What's so special about this antifreeze? And is the cooling system
in the Toyota so poor that one can't use regular green antifreeze?
Sure sounds like one of those "You have to use XXXX brand products or
it will void your warranty" tricks.
Don Montgomery
do...@soco.agilent.com
Werehatrack [Russ Ault]
The red stuff is based on propylene glycol instead of ethylene
glycol, and has an entirely different anticorrosion additive package;
it works *much* better at preventing corrosion than the old stuff, and
it lasts longer...and propylene glycol isn't toxic. Mix the two types
and you get chemical interactions which can destroy the anticorrosion
and antifoaming agents of both.
The reason they say that changing a red-coolant system over to the
green stuff can shorten the life of the cooling system is that if you
stay with the red, the coolant ant the cooling system *will* last
longer than it could with the green. This is also true for fills in
an existing system after engine overhaul, when the system's completely
emtpy (including the heater core); change to red then, and you'll
lengthen the service life of the cooling system.
Prestone has been selling a new-formula red coolant for at least three
years now, but I have no information about its specific compatibility
with the Toyota red coolant. Prestone did state that it was
compatible with the GM red coolant which came out in some of the '98
or '99 models if I recall correctly.
The admonition not to mix the red with the green is the most important
thing. Don't do it. Go heavy on the water temporarily if you haven't
got red to use in filling the system after a repair, and then drain
and remix as soon as you get to where the red stuff can be had.
--
My email address is spamblocked. Remove SnowFromDriveway to reply
vailchalet2
Texaco recommends this anti-freeze for all cars and light-duty trucks. The
patented long-lasting carboxylate inhibitors in Havoline® Extended Life
Anti-Freeze/Coolant DEX-COOL®* have proven their long term performance time
and time again against the effects of extreme heat, corrosion and rust.
*DEX-COOL® is the registered trademark of General Motors Corporation.
Product Benefits and Technology
General Motors Corporation has recognized Havoline® Extended Life
Anti-Freeze/Coolant DEX-COOL®* as a breakthrough coolant, issuing GM's first
DEX-COOL®* license for 5 year/150,000 mile protection. Extended service
intervals are made possible through a patented organic acid corrosion inhibitor
system which eliminates the need for silicates, phosphates, borates, nitrites,
and amines. The elimination of these additives is significant because many of
them are abrasive to water pump seals.
Havoline® Extended-Life Anti-Freeze/Coolant:
Lasts longer than conventional anti-freeze/coolants: Five year/150,000 mile
protection
Effective, long term corrosion protection for all cooling system metals
including aluminum, brass, cast iron, steel, solder and copper
Extends water pump life
Outstanding hot surface aluminum protection
Optimum year-round protection against winter freeze-up and summer boil-over
No silicate formulation eliminates silicate drop-out or gel formation
Excellent heat transfer
Excellent protection in high operating temperatures
Boiling protection: (15 lb. Pressure cap) 2650F (129.40C)
Freezing protection: (15 lb. Pressure cap) -340F (-37.20C)
Compatible with conventional anti-freeze. (Dilution with conventional
anti-freeze will not reduce anti-freeze/coolant properties, but will reduce
extended life benefits.)
Storage stable for at least eight years
100% biodegradable in its pure unused form
Ready to pour. Havoline® Extended Life Prediluted 50/50 Anti-Freeze/Coolant
DEX-COOL® is mixed 50/50 with deionized water. No further dilution is necessary
or recommended.
Applications
Suitable for use in the cooling systems of all types of automotive engines
Can be used wherever a DEX-COOL® product is recommended or required
Both Havoline® Extended Life Anti-Freeze/Coolant DEX-COOL® and Havoline®
Extended Life Prediluted 50/50 Anti-Freeze/Coolant DEX-COOL® meet and exceed
these minimum standards:
GM6277M General Motors DEX-COOL® Extended Life Coolant Specification
Meets General Motors DEX-COOL® requirements
Meets American car manufacturers requirements
Meets Japanese car manufacturers silicate-free requirements
Meets European car manufacturers phosphate-free requirements
Havoline® Extended Life Anti-Freeze/Coolant DEX-COOL® meets and exceeds the
following minimum standards:
ASTM D 3306 for Automotive Service
ASTM D 4340 Aluminum Hot Surface Test for New Coolant
Havoline® Extended Life Prediluted 50/50 Anti-Freeze/Coolant meets and exceeds
the following standard:
ASTM D 4656 for pre-blended coolant automotive service
Download the full specifications (PDF) for
Havoline® Extended Life Anti-Freeze/Coolant DEX-COOL®
© Copyright 2000 Equilon Lubricants, LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Design by CP Communications
Werehatrack [Russ Ault]
>http://www.havoline.com/Products/antifreeze/antifreeze.html
<specs snipped>
Thanks. I'd forgotten the "Dex-cool" trade name, but that is the GM
stuff, no doubt about it.
As for my admonition about incompatibility of the red and green
coolants with regard to additive interaction, my info came from one of
the regional techs with a foreign car company, and was confirmed by a
fleet tech with a local rent car company...where they had some
*interesting* discussions with GM about why certain failures had taken
place. (Let's just say that perhaps Texaco didn't have samples of
every coolant on the market for compatibility testing; there's
apparently at least one which will curdle into a waxy gel when
combined with the red, although it's possible that it may have been
impurities in the water, or just the general lack of sterling quality
of the green-ish coolant involved which caused the stuff to congeal.
The tech said that the GM rep's opinion was that it was an
interaction, though. The tech was buying six gallons of the Prestone
red coolant at the time that the subject came up.)
vailchalet2
newer coolants is Organic Acid Technology...carboxylates.
Far less abrasive to water pumps seals than borate/ silicate/ nitrite/
phosphate/ amine additive combos... and with distilled water last 3 to 5 years
and 80K to 150K miles.
Shell Rotella ELC coolant for diesels, for example, lasts 600,000 miles without
frequent testing and additive maintenance.
I have a Honda service advisory that spells out the importance of using Honda
coolant.
Even though it does favor Honda's financial interests, I believe that it is an
excellent way to ensure material compatibilty and protection. And also to
preserve warranty rights....sometimes even after the warranty expires.
So use only the Toyota coolant abd distilled water.... or thoroughly flush the
system and switch to a similar coolant product from Havoline, Pentosin, Zerex,
or Prestone and run those with distilled water.
http://www.prestone.com/home/index.html
Prestone® Extended Life 5/150 Antifreeze/Coolant
Prestone® Extended Life 5/150 Antifreeze/Coolant provides today's drivers with
outstanding freeze-up and boilover protection for up to five years or 150,000
miles. If you are a high-mileage driver or someone who does not have time to
perform regular vehicle maintenance, you will enjoy the long-lasting protection
of Prestone Extended Life 5/150 Antifreeze/Coolant. Officially licensed by
NASCAR®*, Prestone Extended Life 5/150 antifreeze/coolant is a silicate and
phosphate-free formula, which provides extended performance and protection
against rust and corrosion to all cooling system metals, including the
lightweight aluminum found in many radiators. In addition, Prestone Extended
Life 5/150 Antifreeze/Coolant meets all compatibility requirements for GM
DEX-COOL® Extended Life Antifreeze/Coolant, which is recommended for most 1996
and later General Motors vehicles. Prestone Extended Life 5/150
Antifreeze/Coolant can be added to all antifreezes including DEX-COOL.
Tip
If you decide to replace your existing antifreeze/coolant with Prestone
Extended Life 5/150 Antifreeze/Coolant, make sure you completely drain and
flush the cooling system first in order to gain the full benefits of the
longer-lasting formula. Also, if you are currently using Prestone Extended Life
5/150 Antifreeze/Coolant in your car's cooling system, and you add a regular
antifreeze/coolant, you will lose the extended protection.
http://www.valvoline.com/products/products.asp?cat=2&Product=26
Zerex® Extreme Life 5/150 Antifreeze Coolant
Protects all cooling system metals including aluminum
Prevents cold weather freeze-ups and hot weather boil-overs
Excellent high temperature aluminum protection
Recommended by Valvoline for late model GM vehicles manufactured since 1996
Meets the silicate-free requirements of the Japanese and European automobile
manufacturers
Dyed orange to distinguish its unique chemistry from traditional silicate
coolants
Contains a high quality defoamer and will not harm gaskets, hoses, plastics or
original vehicle paint
Ethylene glycol based
Guaranteed for 5 years or 150,000 miles or your money back
Zerex Extreme Life 5/150 has been tested and meets or exceeds the following
industry coolant specifications: ASTM D3306, D4985; SAE J1034, J1941, J814; TMC
of ATA RP-302B; Cummins 90T8-4; Federal Spec. A-A-870A.
A proper mixture of antifreeze and water, be it from 50/50 up to 70/30,
provides the best protection range because mixing with water raises the boiling
point of the coolant and lowers its freezing point," says Don Hart, president
of the National Automotive Radiator Service Association (NARSA). "Topping off
your cooling system with water or coolant alone upsets the balance and can
result in freezing or boilover of coolant in extreme weather conditions."
NARSA and Valvoline experts recommend a 50/50 solution of antifreeze and water
for optimum protection in most states to protect your engine down to minus 34
degrees Fahrenheit/minus 36.7 degrees Celsius. In colder climates, like Canada
or Alaska, Valvoline recommends mixing 70 percent coolant with 30 percent
water. This 70/30 mixture will protect the engine in temperatures dropping
below minus 84 degrees Fahrenheit/minus 64.4 degrees Celsius.
A higher concentration of antifreeze than is necessary for your climate can
hinder the mixture's ability to transfer heat and can also raise the fluid's
freezing point. Higher concentrations of water make the system more vulnerable
to freezing in cold weather and overheating during the summer months and can
dilute corrosion inhibitors causing irreversible damage.
--------------------------------
And here's good advice:
"You should also change the antifreeze in your car according to the schedule
outlined in your owner's manual," says Dr. Dave Turcotte, Valvoline car care
manager. "Additives that keep antifreeze from freezing in the winter and
boiling in the summer wear out over time. Neglect it, and you may be in store
for some expensive engine repairs."
C. E. White
thread.
The safest antifreeze to use for a top off is Toyota OE antifreeze. If
you want to do a complete flush and fill you can change to another
brand, but I doubt if it is worth the trouble.
The color of the antifreeze doesn't indicate which type of antifreeze
you have. Today there are two basic types of antifreeze, ethylene glycol
and propylene glycol. Different types of additives (rust inhibitors and
water pump lubes) are added to these two basic types to create a huge
variety of products. In the old days almost all antifreeze was green and
was ethylene glycol. Almost all the old type of anti-freeze used the
same type of rust inhibitor system. Then came DexCool and things have
gotten confusing.
According to Motor Magazine (see references below) -
"...The Toyota? It uses a traditional Japanese coolant-a high-phosphate,
nonsilicate formulation...
"...First of all, forget coolant color; it's just a dye and means
nothing. GM and Texaco, which codeveloped the Dex-Cool brand of OAT
antifreeze for late-model GM vehicles, picked orange to distinguish this
type of antifreeze from conventional American coolant, which is green or
gold. Volkswagen, which also uses an OAT formulation as mentioned
earlier, has a similar dye that most of us think is pink. Toyota's
traditional red dye is a totally different product...
"...Conventional Japanese coolant (green or red) contains no silicates,
but has a heavy dose of phosphates and other inhibitors, including a
modest amount of one or two organic acids...
"...Japanese cars use a conventional Japanese coolant...
"...In Japanese cars equipped with silicate-free coolant, rely on this
bit of history: These coolants never were sold in any quantity in the
U.S. Japanese cars seem to survive nicely on conventional American
products, so the safe approach is to stick with them. Both Japanese
silicate-free and conventional American coolants contain phosphates, so
they share that key inhibitor."
"...Unless you buy OE antifreeze from a dealer (if he bothers to carry
it), the only antifreezes you can get for replacement use are
conventional American green-or-gold (that's an antifreeze with
silicone-silicate inhibitors, the choice for many decades) or orange dye
pure OAT of various formulas (no silicates). Except for temporary
emergencies, these two shouldn't be mixed...
"...Japanese makes continue to use a silicate-free antifreeze with a
high dose of other inhibitors, particularly phosphates.
"Until recently, all we had readily available in the U.S. aftermarket
was conventional American silicated green-or-gold. Obviously, it mixed
satisfactorily with the low-silicate Euro antifreezes. And experience
showed no obvious mixing problems with silicate-free Japanese
antifreeze, matching the Japanese formulas in that area..."
References:
Best articles to read -
http://www.motor.com/MAGAZINE/Articles/081999_11.html
http://www.motor.com/MAGAZINE/Articles/022000_05.html
General information -
http://www.motor.com/MAGAZINE/Articles/021999_17.html
http://www.motor.com/MAGAZINE/Articles/022001_14.html
For information on DexCool Red Antifreeze -
http://www.texaco.com/asp/frameit.asp?tn=ps_4t_nav.html&bn=ps_4b_nav.html&cn=/products/coolants/docs/coolant.html
For information of Texaco's long life antifreeze with the traditional
formulae (green) see -
http://www.texaco.com/asp/frameit.asp?tn=ps_4t_nav.html&bn=ps_4b_nav.html&cn=/products/coolants/docs/coolant.html
For information on Texaco's propylene anti-freeze with the DexCool type
of inhibitors see -
http://www.texaco.com/asp/frameit.asp?tn=ps_4t_nav.html&bn=ps_4b_nav.html&cn=/products/coolants/docs/coolant.html
C. E. White
vailchalet2 wrote:
> And here's good advice:
>
> "You should also change the antifreeze in your car according to the schedule
> outlined in your owner's manual," says Dr. Dave Turcotte, Valvoline car care
> manager. "Additives that keep antifreeze from freezing in the winter and
> boiling in the summer wear out over time. Neglect it, and you may be in store
> for some expensive engine repairs."
Well this is pretty much total BS. The actual antifreeze (ethylene
glycol or propylene glycol) isn't going to wear out over time <period>
The antifreeze/anti boil properties are not going to change
significantly (unless you have a leak and keep adding water). What will
change is the ability of the corrosion inhibitors to prevent cooling
system corrosion and the ability of the water pump lubricant additives
to lubricate the water pump seals. These additives are consumed and need
to be replaced.
Regards,
Ed White
C. E. White
"Werehatrack [Russ Ault]" wrote:
> The red stuff is based on propylene glycol instead of ethylene
> glycol, and has an entirely different anticorrosion additive package;
> it works *much* better at preventing corrosion than the old stuff, and
> it lasts longer...and propylene glycol isn't toxic. Mix the two types
> and you get chemical interactions which can destroy the anticorrosion
> and antifoaming agents of both.
This is not necessarily true. The color has nothing to do with the basic
type of anti-freeze. The Toyota "red" antifreeze is ethylene glycol.
DexCool is also "red" and ethylene glycol. These two "red" antifreezes
are not compatible because they use completely different rust inhibitor
formulations. See my other posting in this thread for more information
and some good references.
According to Texaco - "Havoline Extended Life Anti-Freeze/Coolant
DEX-COOL Ž is manufactured from ethylene glycol and a highly effective
long term corrosion inhibitor package based on carboxylate technology.
This inhibitor system eliminates the need for silicates, phosphates,
borates, nitrites, nitrates and amine additives traditionally used for
this purpose. The replacement of these inhibitors is significant for
water pump life because many of these conventional inhibitors have been
shown to be abrasive to water pump seals."
>
> The reason they say that changing a red-coolant system over to the
> green stuff can shorten the life of the cooling system is that if you
> stay with the red, the coolant ant the cooling system *will* last
> longer than it could with the green. This is also true for fills in
> an existing system after engine overhaul, when the system's completely
> emtpy (including the heater core); change to red then, and you'll
> lengthen the service life of the cooling system.
You are confusing the color of the antifreeze with the type of
antifreezes inhibitor package. What you are describing is sort of what
Texaco claims for DexCool (or for their propylene glycol antifreeze with
the DexCool additive package).
> Prestone has been selling a new-formula red coolant for at least three
> years now, but I have no information about its specific compatibility
> with the Toyota red coolant. Prestone did state that it was
> compatible with the GM red coolant which came out in some of the '98
> or '99 models if I recall correctly.
The "red" Toyota antifreeze is not compatible with the "red" GM
antifreeze (DexCool). The "red" Toyota antifreeze is compatible with
most convention "green" or "gold" ethylene glycol antifreeze.
Prestone claims that PrestoneŽ Extended Life 5/150 Antifreeze/Coolant
"meets all compatibility requirements for GM DEX-COOLŽ Extended Life
Antifreeze/Coolant."
> The admonition not to mix the red with the green is the most important
> thing. Don't do it. Go heavy on the water temporarily if you haven't
> got red to use in filling the system after a repair, and then drain
> and remix as soon as you get to where the red stuff can be had.
Since "red" anti-freeze can be anything, saying not to mix red and green
is almost meaningless. Better to say don't mix types. If you don't know
what you have, then the best idea is a complete flush and refill with
the type of anti-freeze recommended by the manufacturer.
vailchalet2
I presumed that the Toyota Red was an Ethylene Glycol/ OAT. but it sounds like
it is somewhere between conventional coolants and Dex Cool in design. In other
words, Ethylyne Glycol, high phosphate, other additives, and one or two organic
acids.
I spoke to a chemist from Texaco about a year and a half ago.... her opinion
was that Dex Cool was compatible with every system and with conventional
coolant.... but with a loss of extended service life.
Coolants are more complicated now... so maybe the best advice is stick with the
factory coolant unless substantial research supports a change to another
coolant.
I read the paragraph, BTW, and I agree it sounds completely mixed up.
>>>>>>>>
And here's good advice:
>>>"You should also change the antifreeze in your car according to the schedule
outlined in your owner's manual," says Dr. Dave Turcotte, Valvoline car care
manager. "Additives that keep antifreeze from freezing in the winter and
boiling in the summer wear out over time. Neglect it, and you may be in store
for some expensive engine repairs."<<<<
<<<<<<<<<<<
>Best articles to read -
Werehatrack [Russ Ault]
>
>Since "red" anti-freeze can be anything, saying not to mix red and green
>is almost meaningless. Better to say don't mix types. If you don't know
>what you have, then the best idea is a complete flush and refill with
>the type of anti-freeze recommended by the manufacturer.
tried (unsuccessfully) to differentiate their non-phosphate coolant by
using blue dye; I found a source to get a compatible compound in 55gal
drums when they had a warranty campaign that would only pay for half a
gallon per car, and it turned out to also be blue...but we later found
that we'd been lucky, as several other suppliers had blue coolants
that were apparently acidic as all get out, and would eat an aluminum
head in short order.
When the Dex-Cool coolant came out, the initial information that had
filtered down the pipe was that it was reformulated in part to meet
the requirements of one locaility (Vermont, perhaps? I'm not sure)
which was calling for nontoxic coolant. The additive package was
described as being much different, and while it was *believed* to be
nondestructively compatible with currently-available coolants, the
experience of the rent car garage guys seemed to indicate otherwise
rather strongly. Obviously, if there was a nontoxic version of
Dex-Cool produced, it's not the same product that is described in the
Texaco literature. (I may have to see if I can get the skinny via a
contact at Texaco, but I don't know if their chem research labs are
still here in Houston anymore.)
Yup, you're right, the only thing to do now is go with what's known to
be in the system for refills, and do a full flush and refill with
recommended type when dealing with a system that's either been
contaminated or has unknown content that appears incorrect.
I have a funny feeling that in a few years, when customers start
raising holy hell about not being able to get replacement coolant at
any service station (and filing lawsuits seeking to recover the cost
of engine damage when proper coolant isn't locally available due to
the car maker's use of exotic compounds), the industry will get
together and standardize things somewhat. The key in this case will
be that it will be easy to convince a jury that the situation has been
rendered needlessly complex, and that the car companies have behaved
in a monopolistic manner by requiring exotic compounds where common
ones would have sufficed. If the majority of automakers can agree on
transmission fluid (a much more critical item), they certainly should
be able to get together on coolant.
Death
the OE's already have an out.. it states in the owner's manual to use "Their
brand" or equivalent. and that's a key phrase.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Most leave the owner's manual in the glovebox and it stays nice and new. I bet
that the owner's manual stays in its wrapper until the car is traded in, or
sent to the scrap yard.
In article <3r0sftsjusmm8fjq8...@4ax.com>, "Werehatrack [Russ
Ault]" <ra...@argolinkSnowFromDriveway.net> wrote:
>"C. E. White" <cewh...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>
snipped
>
snipped
Werehatrack [Russ Ault]
>
>the OE's already have an out.. it states in the owner's manual to use "Their
>brand" or equivalent. and that's a key phrase.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That bit of weaselwording has already been defeated lots of times. If
they don't publish a specification for the product, and/or they don't
publish a list of approved equivalents, then the "or equivalent"
phrase is meaningless. If I'm not mistaken, quite a while back, Honda
got bit by that here in Texas under the Texas Deceptive Trade
Practices Act, on their power steering fluid. At the time, nobody had
an equivalent, and Honda apparently hadn't been particularly
forthcoming with a spec. Audi and Mercedes slipped by on that same
issue because their fluids did have generic equivalents on the
market...just not as widely, due to the low demand.
Death
ok.. but there is an equivalent to GM's dex-cool and its widely available.
texaco and prestone are some of the namebrands I remember
In article <ln7tftc2e90iilv1g...@4ax.com>, "Werehatrack [Russ