Brakes unable to stop runaway Lexus in California?
john
can't stop the car? That's scary!
"In a 911 call, one of the passengers said the Lexus was speeding at
120 m.p.h., and witnesses said the car’s tires were on fire when it
crashed – possibly from the driver slamming on the brakes."
Jeff Strickland
"john" <john...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:856b26a6-caca-4e44...@r24g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
<JS>
I'm thinking the driver must have rode the brakes far longer than was
needed to stop the car. I have to wonder how ling it took him to figure out
that the gas pedal was stuck ...
</JS>
Adam
> So slamming on the brakes enough to cause tires to catch fire still
> can't stop the car? That's scary!
>
> "In a 911 call, one of the passengers said the Lexus was speeding at
> 120 m.p.h., and witnesses said the car’s tires were on fire when it
> crashed – possibly from the driver slamming on the brakes."
>
If you have a runaway, turn on your fourway blinkers to telegraph your
fellow drivers you have a situation.Throw the shift into Neutral
(Notice that N is right next to D and you can usually shift into it
without pressing that shift button). Change into the right lane with a
suitable shoulder and coast or brake down to a safe slow speed.
Transfer into the shoulder and then stop. Turn off car. Breathe. Try
to correct any correctable condition. Loose water bottles tend to roll
under the accel pedal as well.
I am an advocate of driving refresher courses and people doing EVOC
courses. You be surprised how stupid people get after 6 months passing
their driving exam.
CEG
I wonder if they even tried to turn off the ignition at all. That is
all that is needed to stop a runaway car.
Adam
> I wonder if they even tried to turn off the ignition at all. That is
> all that is needed to stop a runaway car.
Your age is showing. Some of the cars with those RFID chips inside the
keys you cant do that. At least with those cars with the Press to
Start button can kill the motor, but you have to read the manual
first. Some you have to hold the start button , some you have to press
twice. confusing aint it?
Turning off the ignition by turning the ignition key is not
necessarily the best way to stop a runaway. Most people twist the key
striaght to locking the steering column, making a bad situation worse.
The driver of that MVA was not the owner of the car, making the
situation worse, driving a unfamiliar car. Best practice with such an
auto is to throw it into neutral and let the rev limiter engage when
the engine red-lines.
CEG
> > I wonder if they even tried to turn off the ignition at all. That is
> > all that is needed to stop a runaway car.
>
> Your age is showing. Some of the cars with those RFID chips inside the
> keys you cant do that. At least with those cars with the Press to
> Start button can kill the motor, but you have to read the manual
> first. Some you have to hold the start button , some you have to press
> twice. confusing aint it?
Are they making cars that difficult where you actually have to read
the manual to use it?? It seems to me they need to make it easier to
shut a vehicle down.
>
> Turning off the ignition by turning the ignition key is not
> necessarily the best way to stop a runaway. Most people twist the key
> striaght to locking the steering column, making a bad situation worse.
>
If the car is in gear you can't turn the key to the lock position
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
Won't even get close to redline. It will bounce around at 3500RPM in
neutral.
cuh...@webtv.net
Button, like an accessory Horn button and paint it a Bright RED color.
cuhulin, the simple minded
CEG
Now they'll probably come out with a big red emergency shut off button
sitting on the middle of the dash so this doesn't happen again.
Scott Dorsey
If you did that, obnoxious and ill-behaved kids would press it.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
CEG
> In article <4176-4AC61F2B-...@storefull-3173.bay.webtv.net>,
>
> <cuhu...@webtv.net> wrote:
> >Isn't there a simple way to rig/wire a KILL/STOP switch/button? BIG RED
> >Button, like an accessory Horn button and paint it a Bright RED color.
> >cuhulin, the simple minded
>
> If you did that, obnoxious and ill-behaved kids would press it.
> --scott
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Well or course you'd put it where they can't reach it.
cuh...@webtv.net
www.techchee.com
Chee! Reminds me of Cheech & Chong.
cuhulin
Jeff Strickland
"Sir F. A. Rien" <jaS...@gbr.online.com> wrote in message
news:076cc5hmd9h982i9c...@4ax.com...
> "Jeff Strickland" <crwl...@yahoo.com> found these unused words:
> gear [to hell with a blown engine] or just turn OFF the ignition!
>
> Shows the 'quality' of current driver education in CAFA Land ... !
>
CAFA?
The driver was a CHP officer, one likes to think he would have been trained
on stopping a car in an emergency.
Jeff Strickland
> are
> both civil and serving oriented.
>
> Ca. F. A.
> ... or do I need to Bartosh further?
>
Looks like you're a Valley Girl, but I don't do valley speak.
Ron Dargenio
It may be possible to make a throttle stick, but here are the laws of
physics:
No car can overpower its brakes. From any speed. If your foot is on
the brake pedal the car will come to a stop. From 10, 20, 80, 120 MPH.
I have personally done this on a closed track. When people say the car
continues to accelerate despite "pressing with all their might" on the
brakes, their foot wasn't on the brake pedal.
Simple. End of story.
Michael Golden
> > Most people twist the key striaght to locking the steering column,
> > making a bad situation worse.
>
>
> It may be possible to make a throttle stick, but here are the laws of
> physics:
> No car can overpower its brakes. From any speed. If your foot is on
> the brake pedal the car will come to a stop. From 10, 20, 80, 120 MPH.
> I have personally done this on a closed track. When people say the car
> continues to accelerate despite "pressing with all their might" on the
> brakes, their foot wasn't on the brake pedal.
>
> Simple. End of story.
The cars I've driven, you have to REMOVE the key to get the steering
column to lock.
Reed
If the engine is held, or stuck, at full throttle (say 120 mph), can
the car be stopped by the brakes ?? I have not tried it myself, but I
doubt any stock brakes could overcome full throttle.
Mark
>
> It may be possible to make a throttle stick, but here are the laws of
> physics:
> No car can overpower its brakes. From any speed. If your foot is on
> the brake pedal the car will come to a stop. From 10, 20, 80, 120 MPH.
> I have personally done this on a closed track. When people say the car
> continues to accelerate despite "pressing with all their might" on the
> brakes, their foot wasn't on the brake pedal.
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
you are wrong, it is not that simple,
at full throttle, there is little vacumm for the brake power booster,
once the storage vacumm is used up you loose the power boost to your
brakes,,
do you think you can over come a full throttle engine with power
brakes that have lost their power boost...
Mark
Ray O
"Mark" <mako...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:948703ee-d557-4114...@w19g2000yqk.googlegroups.com...
Even with no power assist, pedal effort does not increase with vehicle or
engine speed. Before power assisted brakes were introduced, people
routinely stopped vehicles by stepping hard on the brake pedal. While it
does take more pedal effort to brake a vehicle that was designed to have
power assist and that lost the assist, the amount of effort is more or less
the same whether the car is traveling at 30 or 60 MPH and with the engine at
idle or at redline. Stopping distances will increase with higher speeds and
higher engine RPM, just like it does when the power assist is working.
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
hls
"Ray O" <roki...@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote in message Before
> routinely stopped vehicles by stepping hard on the brake pedal.
That is true, Ray, but also in those days we had front and rear drums, for
the most part.
Discs required a lot more pressure than drums, hence the power assist brakes
became
a necessity rather than just a luxury convenience.
Heron McKeister
news:sJWdnfF9FOHXI5zW...@giganews.com...
I had 4 wheel disc brakes on my '74 Fiat 124 Spyder,
was the best stopping vehicle I had owned at the time
and it neither had nor required power assisted brakes.
N8N
> "hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote in message
>
> news:sJWdnfF9FOHXI5zW...@giganews.com...
>
>
>
> > power assisted brakes were introduced, people
> > > routinely stopped vehicles by stepping hard on the brake pedal.
>
> > That is true, Ray, but also in those days we had front and rear drums, for
> > the most part.
> > Discs required a lot more pressure than drums, hence the power assist
> brakes
> > became
> > a necessity rather than just a luxury convenience.
>
> I had 4 wheel disc brakes on my '74 Fiat 124 Spyder,
> was the best stopping vehicle I had owned at the time
> and it neither had nor required power assisted brakes.
Well, you're both right - discs *do* require more line pressure than
drums, but a Fiat Spyder is a fairly light car so it doesn't matter
all that much. I used to have a Porsche 914 with manual discs, but in
general, manual discs are pretty rare and unlikely to be found on
anything but small, light sports cars.
nate
Heron McKeister
news:d8aeda5a-97c2-4b14...@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
nate
-------------------------------------------------------
I wholly concur.
hls
"Heron McKeister" <n...@home.com> wrote in message
news:3tjMm.19831$gi1....@newsfe19.iad...
Of course, there are exceptions to everything anyone says on here.
Everybody
seems to scan for the exception rather than to consider the truth of the
principle.
Weight plays a big part in this. Obviously bicycles and motorcycles may
also have
disc brakes, and they can be stopped easily by a standard human being
because they
weigh so little. As the car gets heavier, it becomes harder and harder to
stop an
unassisted disc brake system. The design of the braking system is another
factor...
the makeup of the pad, the surface area of the pad, the size of the caliper
pistons (
thus mechanical advantage designed into the system) all enter in.
Drum brakes have a pseudoservo action which draws one of the shoes onto the
drum surface and gives some mechanical advantage. They may also have a much
larger surface area than disc brake pads. Even so, power drum brakes were
used
in a lot of American cars before discs took over.
Disc brakes, per se, require more pressure than drum brakes, in general.
Their
advantages, IN GENERAL, are that they do not fade as badly when heated,
and they perform better in the wet. Unsprung weight arguments can be made,
but you can engineer lightweight drum systems that could compare with many
disc caliper systems. Porsche used them for a long time.
For the larger and heavier American cars of the time (my reference), you had
to have power disc brake assists to offset the weak and lazy asses of most
Americans.
dsi1
I've had several 1972 Fiat 124 Sports Coupe. They all had standard vac
operated brake boosters. The coupes also had a valve that measured the
angle of the body to the rear axle and reduced line pressure to the rear
disks on hard braking to prevent the rear wheels from locking up. A
nifty idea.
hls
"dsi1" <ds...@humuhumunukunukuapuapa.org> wrote in message news:ugkMm.51080
> I've had several 1972 Fiat 124 Sports Coupe. They all had standard vac
> operated brake boosters. The coupes also had a valve that measured the
> angle of the body to the rear axle and reduced line pressure to the rear
> disks on hard braking to prevent the rear wheels from locking up. A nifty
> idea.
Now that you mention it, a friend of mine has an Alfa Romeo from that time
period.
It has vacuum, but gets it in a strange way. Ive seen it, and my friend has
attempted to
explain it, but I am not satisfied that I understand it completely. A
vacuum line is tapped
into the head near the exhaust port. I dont know that it goes directly to
manifold vacuum
or what. Maybe someone here knows the details of this unusual bit of
Italianism.
dsi1
> Well, you're both right - discs *do* require more line pressure than
> drums, but a Fiat Spyder is a fairly light car so it doesn't matter
> all that much. I used to have a Porsche 914 with manual discs, but in
> general, manual discs are pretty rare and unlikely to be found on
> anything but small, light sports cars.
>
> nate
My brother had a 914. It was a great beauty. Too bad the brakes sucked.
I guess there's no such thing as stop-and-go traffic in Germany. :-)
dsi1
That's interesting - I don't know anything about that.
The Alfa I had was a little weird too. It had a SPICA mechanical fuel
injection that was like a analog/mechanical computer whose workings
scared me to death. The transmission and clutch was in the rear end
which means the driveshaft spun at engine speeds which means the
driveshaft had to be balanced to a high degree but it never was. It also
had nifty inboard disk brakes and a DeDion rear suspension. The specs
were advanced for the time but it was pretty much all a technological
dead end.
hls
"dsi1" <ds...@humuhumunukunukuapuapa.org> wrote in message news:mVkMm.29242
> The Alfa I had was a little weird too. It had a SPICA mechanical fuel
> injection that was like a analog/mechanical computer whose workings scared
> me to death. The transmission and clutch was in the rear end which means
> the driveshaft spun at engine speeds which means the driveshaft had to be
> balanced to a high degree but it never was. It also had nifty inboard disk
> brakes and a DeDion rear suspension. The specs were advanced for the time
> but it was pretty much all a technological dead end.
Italian engineering.. such beautiful concepts, such wonderful carrozeria,
such
pissant results, usually.
MG
"hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote in message
news:VqKdnRu-8qYfQZzW...@giganews.com...
This entire story illustrates yet again the beauty of the manual
transmission. Depress clutch (or not), take it out of gear, end of problem.
hls
"MG" <rebor...@mypacks.net> wrote in message news:dtlMm.2751
>
> This entire story illustrates yet again the beauty of the manual
> transmission. Depress clutch (or not), take it out of gear, end of
> problem.
You betcha! And if (seldom) you have to repair it, you can do it in the
back
of a small shop in Avezzano with ordinary hand tools for the most part.
Im glad you brought this up. I am not really a fan of automatic slushboxes.
dsi1
I have no problem with manuals but the reality is that it's mainly
appropriate for small sports cars. I don't want to be shifting if I've
driving a bunch of kids or adults around. I wouldn't want a manual in a
large family car any more than I'd want an automatic in a small VW or Fiat.
The manual will die out along with the piston engine. The cars of the
future will be probably be powered with electric motors. My guess is
that electric motor controllers could be programed to simulate the
torque and shift take-up of piston engines. Sadly, that'll probably be
the only legacy of the age of the piston engine and manual gearboxes
that will survive.
som...@some.domain
more pressure to stop my 650 triumph with a doubling leading shoe front than
a xt 750 jamaha, which had one disc front and weighs more.
dsi1
I doubt there's much validity that vacuum assisted brakes were required
because of the advent of disk brakes. My first car, a 67 Barracuda had
drums and vac boost, as did most cars of the time. That one had a tiny
V8 - a 273! Of course, today that would be a large engine - 4.5L. :-)
Ray O
"hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote in message
Among other things, pedal effort is a function of the design of the master
cylinder, difference in size between the master cylinder and wheel cylinders
(disc or drum), and pedal travel distance. The larger surface area of the
piston in a disc brake caliper relative to the surface area of the piston in
the master cylinder gives a mechanical advantage over the smaller surface
area of a drum brake wheel cylinder.
IMO, the biggest reason that it takes more pedal effort to brake on a
vehicle that was designed with power brakes and that has lost power assist
is that if the vehicle were designed to take minimal pedal effort without
power assist and then you add power assist, the brakes become very touchy
and difficult for most drivers to modulate. My dad's '67 Ambassador had
very touchy brakes, and in a panic stop, the passengers all got tossed
forward against their seat belts.
hls
"dsi1" <ds...@spamnet.com> wrote in message news:5eqMm.20048
> I doubt there's much validity that vacuum assisted brakes were required
> because of the advent of disk brakes. My first car, a 67 Barracuda had
> drums and vac boost, as did most cars of the time. That one had a tiny
> V8 - a 273! Of course, today that would be a large engine - 4.5L. :-)
Power assist brakes, as I said, became luxury items. They were not
absolutely necessary on drum brake cars, but certainly made braking
effortless. Finally they found their way onto almost every car.
Disc brakes on large American cars, without power assist, can be monsters.
It is just the way things evolved.
Jules
> The Alfa I had was a little weird too. It had a SPICA mechanical fuel
> injection that was like a analog/mechanical computer whose workings
> scared me to death. The transmission and clutch was in the rear end
> which means the driveshaft spun at engine speeds which means the
> driveshaft had to be balanced to a high degree but it never was. It also
> had nifty inboard disk brakes and a DeDion rear suspension.
Urgh, memories of that disk / suspension setup on Rover P6's - it was a
real pig to work on because it was so inaccessible :-(
dsi1
My condolences on your Rover. I would have liked to have owned a Jag but
after studying the manual, I got scared. :-)
Kevin
news:DMGdnVZK6rC8KJ_W...@giganews.com:
unfortunatly your a moron. the brake peddle effort is easily controled
by the brake peddle ratio. it can have high or low effort with or
without power assist. power assist was simply a sales gimmic just as it
is today. the only reason for power assist is to shorten up the peddle
travel. get your facts right and go away. KB
--
THUNDERSNAKE #9
Protect your rights or "Lose" them
The 2nd Admendment guarantees the others
Heron McKeister
>
> "Heron McKeister" <n...@home.com> wrote in message
> news:3tjMm.19831$gi1....@newsfe19.iad...
> > "hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote in message
> > news:sJWdnfF9FOHXI5zW...@giganews.com...
> >>
> >> "Ray O" <roki...@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote in message
Before
> >> power assisted brakes were introduced, people
> >> > routinely stopped vehicles by stepping hard on the brake pedal.
> >>
> >> That is true, Ray, but also in those days we had front and rear drums,
> >> for
> >> the most part.
> >> Discs required a lot more pressure than drums, hence the power assist
> > brakes
> >> became
> >> a necessity rather than just a luxury convenience.
> >
> >
> > I had 4 wheel disc brakes on my '74 Fiat 124 Spyder,
> > was the best stopping vehicle I had owned at the time
> > and it neither had nor required power assisted brakes.
> >
>
> Of course, there are exceptions to everything anyone says on here.
Including that statement?
> Everybody
> seems to scan for the exception rather than to consider the truth of the
> principle.
Really, everybody?
> Weight plays a big part in this. Obviously bicycles and motorcycles may
> also have
> disc brakes, and they can be stopped easily by a standard human being
> because they
> weigh so little.
But no one was addressing cycles.
> As the car gets heavier, it becomes harder and harder to
> stop an
> unassisted disc brake system. The design of the braking system is
another
> factor...
> the makeup of the pad, the surface area of the pad, the size of the
caliper
> pistons (
> thus mechanical advantage designed into the system) all enter in.
Not to mention such esoterics as the boiling point and vapor
pressure of the fluid, the universal gravitational constant ... ;-)
> Drum brakes have a pseudoservo action which draws one of the shoes onto
the
> drum surface and gives some mechanical advantage.
Dependent upon application, ie whether a twin leading
or leading/trailing design and the direction of rotation.
> They may also have a much
> larger surface area than disc brake pads.
Are you alluding to swept area or static contact surface?
> Even so, power drum brakes were
> used
> in a lot of American cars before discs took over.
>
> Disc brakes, per se, require more pressure than drum brakes, in general.
> Their
> advantages, IN GENERAL, are that they do not fade as badly when heated,
> and they perform better in the wet. Unsprung weight arguments can be
made,
> but you can engineer lightweight drum systems that could compare with many
> disc caliper systems. Porsche used them for a long time.
I was always partial to the finned aluminum GM drums.
> For the larger and heavier American cars of the time (my reference),
Implicit perhaps, I saw no explicit reference.
> you had
> to have power disc brake assists to offset the weak and lazy asses of most
> Americans.
No, reducing the ratio of master cylinder piston to aggregate
wheel cylinder cross sectional or working surface areas (being
careful to consider volume amounts and pedal travel) would
accomplish the mechanical advantage provded by power assist.
But I'm just screwing with you, we're in fundamental agreement.
Heron McKeister
Not familiar with that. Could it have been something like
a low pressure source (using the bernoulli effect for high
speed flow), possibly boosted by a vacuum amplifier, for
low intake manifold vacuum conditions present during
periods of acceleration concurrent with high exhasut gas
velocities? An altogether hilarious concept, no?
Heron McKeister
My experience (albeit dated) has been that most automatic
transmissions are not much more, if at all, demanding to
repair than standards. The former usually involves only
replacing friction surfaces, gaskets o-rings and possibly
snap and sealing rings. They most often don't require the
replacement of bushings, pumps, sprags, gears, servos ...
Once failed the latter is likely to involve, if not require,
replacement of synchronizer rings, dogs, shifter forks,
ball and/or needle bearings sets, possibly gears or shafts.
Heron McKeister
Gee, I dunno, Ferraris, Maseratis, Lamborghinis, Bugattis,
Ducatis, Benellis, MotoGuzzis, Lombardinis, Ruggerinis,
Vancini and Martellis, Pininfarina, Bertone... both designs
and manufactured products weren't exactly crap, imho. ;-)
Heron McKeister
Ah for the days of non integrated proportioning and
metering valves ;^)
Heron McKeister
news:Xns9CC696FE6E559k...@167.142.225.136...
He may be a lot of things but I get the distinct
impression that moron isn't among them.
hls
"Heron McKeister" <n...@home.com> wrote in message news:SjEMm.17411
>
> But I'm just screwing with you, we're in fundamental agreement.
>
I know, and I dont mind that.. I get tired of all the "yeah, but" and "what
if"
bullshit. There are always factors which can be swayed, moved, massaged.
hls
"Heron McKeister" <n...@home.com> wrote in message news:TrEMm.17414
> My experience (albeit dated) has been that most automatic
> transmissions are not much more, if at all, demanding to
> repair than standards. The former usually involves only
> replacing friction surfaces, gaskets o-rings and possibly
> snap and sealing rings. They most often don't require the
> replacement of bushings, pumps, sprags, gears, servos ...
> Once failed the latter is likely to involve, if not require,
> replacement of synchronizer rings, dogs, shifter forks,
> ball and/or needle bearings sets, possibly gears or shafts.
>
I dont agree with you at all here. Rebuilding automatic transmission,
to me, can be much more tedious than working with a standard gearbox.
(And again, I dont want to hear any "yeah, buts" ;>). I know there are
complicated standard boxes, and rather simple automatice)
To go through an automatic and measure, evaluate wear, replace, and
adjust all the necessary parts can be a real fucking headache. In my
experience, many automatic boxes (particularly GM) will fail between
100K and 150K... Standards, treated well, may never fail, as such.
They may get like me, arthritic and balky, but seldom do they just
crater unless they are dogged.
hls
> by the brake peddle ratio. it can have high or low effort with or
> without power assist. power assist was simply a sales gimmic just as it
> is today. the only reason for power assist is to shorten up the peddle
> travel. get your facts right and go away. KB
*******
And unfortunately you're an ignorant cunt, Kevin.
You spell like a 5th grader.
Now, go on out to recess.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Disk brake calipers contain more fluid than drum brake cyls, and
require more fluid movement at higher pressure to provide the same
braking force, generally speaking. Therefore, disk brakes derive a
much grater advantage from power assist than servo type (like Bendix)
drum brakes. It allows you to get good braking pressure without
extreme pedal travel.
Non Servo drum brakes like the old Chrysler Center Plane, girling
twinleading shoe, and GM Huck brake systems would have benefited
highly from power assist as well -and GENERALLY required either more
pedal pressure or longer pedal travel than the more common, recently,
Bendix style "self energizing" or "servo" brakes.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
wrote:
Oh for the days of cable and rod actuated brakes, with mechanical
brake force distribution -via different length bellcranks.
dsi1
>>
> Disk brake calipers contain more fluid than drum brake cyls, and
> require more fluid movement at higher pressure to provide the same
> braking force, generally speaking. Therefore, disk brakes derive a
> much grater advantage from power assist than servo type (like Bendix)
> drum brakes. It allows you to get good braking pressure without
> extreme pedal travel.
I'm familiar with basic hydraulics but the fact remains that brakes used
the same system of vacuum assist before disks became popular. It doesn't
matter which system gets more benefit from power assist because the
truth is that both drums and disks pretty much suck without it.
Kevin
dnaZSieoQtZ7Wn...@giganews.com:
poor baby don`t like my spelling? I am heart broken. but you
repeatedly spouted incorrect facts and thats still stupid. KB
AZ Nomad
Of course. Who wouldn't want to have a twenty foot travel on their
brakes?
Heron McKeister
I too had not been a fan of slushboxes but with the advent
of the 727 Torqueflite, THM 400 and the C4 Ford and later
series transmissions, I became a believer. They're rock solid,
can be manually operated (for those so desiring) and easily
amd usually cheaply (for DIYs) modded and/or rebuilt, not
to mention far superior for hands and feet free stop and go
traffic conditions. With the single exception of efficiency (a
quite minor concern) they simply do everything better, imo.
hls
> repeatedly spouted incorrect facts and thats still stupid. KB
I didnt spout any inaccurate facts, cretin
hls
"Heron McKeister" <n...@home.com> wrote in message news:Q_YMm.26856
> I too had not been a fan of slushboxes but with the advent
> of the 727 Torqueflite, THM 400 and the C4 Ford and later
> series transmissions, I became a believer. They're rock solid,
> can be manually operated (for those so desiring) and easily
> amd usually cheaply (for DIYs) modded and/or rebuilt, not
> to mention far superior for hands and feet free stop and go
> traffic conditions. With the single exception of efficiency (a
> quite minor concern) they simply do everything better, imo.
The newer trannies are quite efficient, I think. They may not equal
a well set up manual, but they approach them quite well.
In my mind, automatics have an acceptable, in most cases, but
limited, life and tend to be expensive to rebuild properly.
Manuals can last a long long time, and are fairly cheap
to rebuild.
Seldom will a manual just dump you. Autos sometimes do.
But having said that, I dont have one manual transmissioned car
remaining.
Nate Nagel
I actually would go the other way. My favorite automatics that I've
driven would be the Packard Ultramatic (aka Ultraumatic by owners who
have had to repair them) and the Borg-Warner DG-250, because of the
lockup torque converter. I just don't like the coasting feeling of an
automatic, when I lift my foot completely off the gas I like to feel
compression braking. Unfortunately those are the only autos that I'm
aware of that used lockup TCs back in the day, and when they were
reintroduced all the ones I've driven have had their controls programmed
to unlock the TC on 0% throttle which not only do I find unnerving but
is also hard on your brakes. They also have really loose TCs
exacerbating the lack of compression braking.
Maybe there's a good automatic out there that I haven't driven that
actually drives like a stickshift - I don't drive that many. But I find
the 50's automatics more pleasant to drive than ANY modern automatic.
And I find the more modern automatics even more annoying than the old
TF727/TH350/TH400 etc.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
spsffan
Everyone is leaving out that it isn't the transmission(gearbox) itself
that needs rebuilding on manuals, it's the clutch. The cost of two
clutch replacements about equals one automatic rebuilding....it works
out about the same in 250,000 miles.
Regards,
DAve
hls
"spsffan" <sps...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:he20u...@news3.newsguy.com...
>
>
> Everyone is leaving out that it isn't the transmission(gearbox) itself
> that needs rebuilding on manuals, it's the clutch. The cost of two clutch
> replacements about equals one automatic rebuilding....it works out about
> the same in 250,000 miles.
>
> Regards,
>
> DAve
Depending on the automatic, a rebuild runs about $2000 around here.
With exotics it could be a lot more. It is far worse, IMO, if the tranny
goes out on the road and leaves you high and dry.
Clutches do have to be replaced on manuals. The last one I had done,
on the road, cost me about $150. This was a dead simple Ford 150
van. I could have done it with a couple of sockets, extensions, ratchet,
and a jack. Luckily, I found a good shop which didnt charge all that they
could have gotten out of me.
That can vary a good bit as well. And if you have to replace the flywheel,
it goes up a bit from there. So what are we normally talking about, middle
to upper end ?$500
Most any goober can replace a clutch, even in Claptrap, Arizona. Rebuilding
an automatic takes some moxie.
Nate Nagel
Really depends on the car. A clutch kit for an 80's VW is dirt cheap,
and it's an in your driveway type job, although it helps to have a
second person to help wrestling the trans out. In one of my old
Studebakers it's a one person job and not much more expensive (and I'd
call it "cake easy" save for having to pull the carpet and an access
panel in the floor to get to the upper bellhousing bolts.) Now in my
944 it's a bit of a project, but that's a special case.
If you go through two clutches in 250K miles, I ASSume you're commuting
in stop and go traffic... and I'm not aware of anywhere that'll rebuild
any automatic for a couple hundred bucks, even if you pull it yourself -
and pulling an automatic is a lot harder than a stickshift simply
because of the weight of the f'ing thing.
hls
"Nate Nagel" <njn...@roosters.net> wrote in message
> If you go through two clutches in 250K miles, I ASSume you're commuting in
> stop and go traffic... and I'm not aware of anywhere that'll rebuild any
> automatic for a couple hundred bucks, even if you pull it yourself - and
> pulling an automatic is a lot harder than a stickshift simply because of
> the weight of the f'ing thing.
>
> nate
Op. Cit. My previous post. Automatics cost a couple of thou around here.
Manuals
a lot less. Clutches are normally $150-500,
Vic Smith
All this depends a lot on whether it's a FWD or RWD.
Last time I had auto trans work done they were RWD cars and the work
probably didn't cost much more than doing a clutch/pressure
plate/throwout bearing replacement. Not sure about the prices,
because I always did the manual clutch work myself. Replaced one
flywheel on my F-150 and that added about $200 to the cost.
But when I did the autos the trans shop guy showed me the clutch packs
he had waiting and a wall full of reworked torque converters.
Cost $125 for a complete rebuild That was a while ago. like 30 years.
'67 Skylark. Had the same guy do a '76 Caprice a few years later and
it cost about $400. And it didn't last either.
My daughter recently paid $1800 for a rebuild on her 2001 Mitsu
Eclipse.
Don't know what doing a clutch on a FWD entails, but I'm pretty sure
it's more labor than a RWD.
Have to ask my kid. He converted his '93 Corsica from auto to stick
and knows way too much about it.
--Vic
Nate Nagel
> He converted his '93 Corsica from auto to stick
> and knows way too much about it.
Wow. I'm speechless. I mean... (shakes head) I don't get it.
Vic Smith
wrote:
>Vic Smith wrote:
>
>> He converted his '93 Corsica from auto to stick
>> and knows way too much about it.
>
>Wow. I'm speechless. I mean... (shakes head) I don't get it.
>
I wasn't speechless when he called a half mile from the house with a
dropped halfshaft. But he got them sized right on the next try.
Bottom line is he did it because he wanted to.
Kids. Some convert Corsicas from auto to stick, some buy a
Studebaker. Whatchagonnado?
Just talked to him.
A clutch on a FWD always means pulling the halfshafts and doing an
alignment afterwards.
Might have to pull a subframe, depending on the car.
Not nearly as easy as doing a RWD clutch.
--Vic
hls
"Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> it's more labor than a RWD.
> Have to ask my kid. He converted his '93 Corsica from auto to stick
> and knows way too much about it.
>
> --Vic
hls
> alignment afterwards.
> Might have to pull a subframe, depending on the car.
> Not nearly as easy as doing a RWD clutch.
>
> --Vic
I disagree. It isnt automatic that you must realign.. Sometimes you
can remove the halfshafts from the tranny without disturbing the alignment.
In some cases you might have to remove a subframe which does cause more
work.
But I agree that a RWD doesnt normally entail any of these issues, and is
normally
easier.
Vic Smith
>
>"Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message
>> A clutch on a FWD always means pulling the halfshafts and doing an
>> alignment afterwards.
>> Might have to pull a subframe, depending on the car.
>> Not nearly as easy as doing a RWD clutch.
>>
>> --Vic
>
>I disagree. It isnt automatic that you must realign.. Sometimes you
>can remove the halfshafts from the tranny without disturbing the alignment.
>
The kid says you can sometimes pop the lowers and it may or may not
affect alignment. The only way to know is put it on the machine and
do the measurements. That's a minimum.
He may be wrong, but since he does suspensions all day every day I
tend to trust him.
I even forgave him for dropping that halfshaft when he was 17.
--Vic
hls
It happens. If you drop the lowers and pull the halfshafts, it is not
likely
that you have disturbed the symmetry.
In many cases if you replace the ball joints you do not disturb the
symmetry...
BUT, the symmetry can be disturbed by wear, by rough treatment, etc
so it is wise to check it.
People probably should check their alignment more than they do, even
without mechanical interventions.
cl...@snyder.on.ca
Big enough self energizing drum brakes do NOT NEED power assist.
Disk brakes DO - they are by nature NOT self energizing, and require a
lot of brake force. Not many disk brake cars, historically, without
power assist. And most Mopars built that way in the seventies have
had major front end damage at some time in their life. Used to be
impossible to find front end sheetmetal at the wreckers for them.
Nate Nagel
VW you don't need to align, and in fact you can always get the pass side
shaft out without popping the lower ball joint. *sometimes* you need to
do the driver's side but I've never had to.
If you are only dropping the trans you don't even need to remove the
shafts, just unbolt them from the trans.
AZ Nomad
In any case, it'll cost at least ten times than trading to a MT car.
Unless, of course, your time is worth nothing and want to engage
in an expensive pointless project.
hls
"AZ Nomad" <azno...@PremoveOBthisOX.COM> wrote in message
news:slrnhg9b4s.s...@ip70-176-155-130.ph.ph.cox.net...
Ive seen a number of conversions to MT, and your observations are right on.
Vic Smith
I'll add it wasn't expensive at all. But he's pretty special as a
mech, and knows how to haunt boneyards.
The most expensive thing was getting the sized halfshafts, and those
were less than $200. Think the Getrag cost him 50 bucks.
I thought it was silly when I heard what he had done. That was when
he called from down the street with the dropped halfshaft.
He had miscalculated the lengths of what he needed and had bought for
a few bucks at the boneyard. I gave him a dressing down about doing
it - he did it over one weekend 100 feet away from me in the garage,
but hadn't told me what he was doing. Probably knew what I would say.
Then seeing his depression I supported him and put him onto a
halfshaft shop that set him right up with proper length halfshafts.
Next day he was all set, and drove the car another 4 years before rust
got it.
It was his first car, and he didn't have the money to replace it.
Didn't even look like a Corsica. Think rice.
Not my style, any of it, but nobody says your kids have to be like
you. I'm proud of him.
He did a nice job taking of taking care of those 3800 LIM and UIM
problems on his Bonneville too. Before they became a problem.
So he doesn't waste money on cars.
Wastes it on computers.
--Vic
hls
Better than wasting it on dope and red headed women, IMO.
If you have a good source of parts, many of these jobs are simple
changeouts.
If you have to hang pedals, custom fabricate a lot of things, then it can be
a
bummer.
For my part, the only thing I like less than trying to work under a dash
(pedals, etc)
is working on exhaust systems.
Nate Nagel
I converted my '55 Stude from an automatic to a 4-speed, I probably
wouldn't do it again, but I really had to have a stickshift to be happy
with the car. I'm thinking about converting it to a column-shift
3-speed with overdrive for vintage coolness and more gear spread (or
maybe a modern 5-speed, but most aren't rated for the torque of a Stude
V-8.) BUT I can't honestly say that I'd recommend anyone to do it,
there's no logical reason to other than "I want to." Unless you have to
have a certain exact hard to find car you're probably better off just
buying a car with a stick in the first place.
AZ Nomad
>I converted my '55 Stude from an automatic to a 4-speed, I probably
>wouldn't do it again, but I really had to have a stickshift to be happy
>with the car. I'm thinking about converting it to a column-shift
>3-speed with overdrive for vintage coolness and more gear spread (or
Automobile design has changed a bit in the last 50 years.
Nate Nagel
yeah, mostly for the more complex, making a swap even less of a good
idea unless you're really committed to it.
Scott Dorsey
Sadly not anywhere NEAR enough.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."