Is idling harmfull for engines?
Rocket
Hello everyone,
Lately I have been hearing people saying that idling is not good for
engine life. Here are every day idling situations:
1. While warming up your car in the morning.
2. While going down-hill (I put the gear in neutral) Will idling be more
harmfull than letting the engine rev at say 2000 rpm?
3. Before coming to a complete stop, (I put the gear in neutral instead
of down shifting to save clutch & engine)
3. While stuck in traffic.
Can anyone tell me if idling is harmfull or not? and Do I need to change
some of the above habits to reduce the amount of time my engine idles on
the average every day?
Thanks,
Rocket
reply to <yma...@fuse.net>
TheCentralSc...@pobox.com
In article <343A5936...@ThankYou.Spammers>, Rocket wrote:
>Hello everyone,
>
>Lately I have been hearing people saying that idling is not good for
>engine life. Here are every day idling situations:
>
>1. While warming up your car in the morning.
>
>2. While going down-hill (I put the gear in neutral) Will idling be more
>harmfull than letting the engine rev at say 2000 rpm?
>
>3. Before coming to a complete stop, (I put the gear in neutral instead
>of down shifting to save clutch & engine)
>
>3. While stuck in traffic.
idling wastes gas but is totally harmless. You must idle the engine long
enough in the morning to allow the engine to become fully lubed. This
only takes a few seconds.
idling is easier on the engine than engine braking. However, you should
leave the car in gear to allow acceleration if needed.
Ted Heron
I wouldn't jump to label the prior statement as "bad advice" so quickly -
you point out correctly that until an engine is up to operating temp it is
in a state of, shall we say, "accelerated wear", where components aren't
fitting together well and "miles and miles" are being "shaved off" the
life of the engine. The way to minimize the effects of this is to get the
vehicle through the warm-up period as quickly as possible under a light
load. In order to accomplish this the auto manufacturers recommend waiting
for a few seconds after starting for the oil pressure to come up fully and
then driving off immediately using light throttle until the engine
temperature is in the normal operating range. They caution that to start
an engine and let it warm up under idle conditions prolongs the warm-up
period. During this time you have bad fitting parts rubbing together
exacerbated by an over-rich fuel mixture washing the lubricant off the
cylinder walls. This eventually leads to premature ring and/or piston
failure.
Ted
email: he...@austx.tandem.com
Opinions I express here are my own and not my employer's.
On Tue, 7 Oct 1997, Chris G. wrote:
> In article <slrn63kmp2.d64.TheC...@xanadu.chisp.net> TheCentralSc...@pobox.com () writes:
>
> >idling wastes gas but is totally harmless. You must idle the engine long
> >enough in the morning to allow the engine to become fully lubed. This
> >only takes a few seconds.
>
> Bad advice...proper warm-up should be in the minutes range...but it does
> depend on the ambiet temp. A cold engine...started for only seconds...has not
> gone thru the proper metal expansion, and is "shaving" miles and miles of wear
> off your engine.
>
> Take some advice from a 12 year ASE certified auto tech...let your engines
> warm up well!
>
>
>
>
> Christopher K. Greenhalgh, N8WCT
> email: ck...@osu.edu
> ax.25: n8wct@w8cqk.#cmh.oh.usa.noam
> [not speaking for my employer]
>
>
Eric Gisin
> In article <343A5936...@ThankYou.Spammers>, Rocket wrote:
> >Lately I have been hearing people saying that idling is not good for
> >engine life. Here are every day idling situations:
> >
> >1. While warming up your car in the morning.
> >
> >2. While going down-hill (I put the gear in neutral) Will idling be more
> >harmfull than letting the engine rev at say 2000 rpm?
> >
> >3. Before coming to a complete stop, (I put the gear in neutral instead
> >of down shifting to save clutch & engine)
> >
> >3. While stuck in traffic.
In cases 2 and 3 you should leave the car in gear, because it *saves*
gas. All modern cars shut off the fuel flow in this case, mostly to
prevent pollution, not save gas.
--
Eric Gisin, London.on.ca -- Windows/UNIX/Internet Consulting
http://www.webhaven.com/ericg/ mailto:er...@techie.com
Steve Cramer
Chris G. wrote:
>
> >In order to accomplish this the auto manufacturers recommend waiting
> >for a few seconds after starting for the oil pressure to come up fully and
> >then driving off immediately using light throttle until the engine
> >temperature is in the normal operating range.
>
> And even if true...it is a known fact that manufacturers will give advice that
> will be more lucrative for them...than the car owner.
>
> Just look at oil change recommendations...
>
How can you be so experienced and never have read an owner's manual or
automotive column? This advice (good or bad) is given very widely.
Your suggestion that manufacturers give advice to owners to hasten the
wearing out of their cars is hard to accept. Do you believe that if my
Belchfire engine wears out quickly I'll runsh out and buy another
Belchfire? And car dealers usually give the opposite advice, ie, change
it more often.
Steve
--
Test Scoring & Reporting Services Sometimes, you never can
University of Georgia always tell what you least
Athens, GA 30602-5593 expect the most.
L. Frear
In article <343A74...@eskimo.com>, Laura Gjovaag <te...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>> Jim Johnson wrote:
>> > Rocket wrote:
>> > >
>> > > 2. While going down-hill (I put the gear in neutral) Will
>> > > idling be more
>> > > harmfull than letting the engine rev at say 2000 rpm?
>> > >
>>
>> > Rocket, I think #2 is illegal in some states. (Probably Colorado
>
>I remember this as being illegal in Washington, though I couldn't figure
>out why.
Actually, it will damage your car.
Chris G.
In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.971007132405.19630D-100000@solitude> Ted Heron <he...@austx.tandem.com> writes:
>I wouldn't jump to label the prior statement as "bad advice" so quickly -
>you point out correctly that until an engine is up to operating temp it is
>in a state of, shall we say, "accelerated wear", where components aren't
>fitting together well and "miles and miles" are being "shaved off" the
>life of the engine.
Correct.
>The way to minimize the effects of this is to get the
>vehicle through the warm-up period as quickly as possible under a light
>load.
There is no lighter load than idling...and warming up "quickly" is irrelevant.
>In order to accomplish this the auto manufacturers recommend waiting
>for a few seconds after starting for the oil pressure to come up fully and
>then driving off immediately using light throttle until the engine
>temperature is in the normal operating range.
After all my years in the auto repair business, I have never heard of this.
And even if true...it is a known fact that manufacturers will give advice that
will be more lucrative for them...than the car owner.
Just look at oil change recommendations...
>They caution that to start
>an engine and let it warm up under idle conditions prolongs the warm-up
>period.
I agree that it prolongs the warm up...but I dont agree that is a 'bad thing'.
I contest that an engine that is warmed up to operating temp by
idling...verses driving...will run better, and last longer...and that has been
my experience I might add.
>During this time you have bad fitting parts rubbing together
>exacerbated by an over-rich fuel mixture washing the lubricant off the
>cylinder walls. This eventually leads to premature ring and/or piston
>failure.
In a good working fuel induction system, it would not be running an "over-rich
fuel mixture". If your engine is running 'overly rich' at any time...get it
repaired at once.
Take care.
Rocket
Jim Johnson wrote:
> Rocket wrote:
> >
> >
> > 2. While going down-hill (I put the gear in neutral) Will idling be more
> > harmfull than letting the engine rev at say 2000 rpm?
> >
> [snip]
> Rocket, I think #2 is illegal in some states. (Probably Colorado
If it is illegal, how is it being conducted? After all there is no way to
tell if you are in gear or not without sitting next to to you in the car and
watching the gear stick!!
(Of course another way is to listen to your muffler if it is a loud muffler
:-) )
Rocket
wong
In article <ckg+.1462...@osu.edu>, ck...@osu.edu (Chris G.) writes:
> In article <343A9A...@coe.uga.edu> Steve Cramer <cra...@coe.uga.edu> writes:
>
> >> 1. While warming up your car in the morning.
>
> >Should only take a few seconds, then drive easily for a coupls of miles.
>
> Again..."proper" warm up would be in the minutes range. It is never a good
> idea to load the engine untill the metals have had time to properly expand. I
> know that this senario is subjective...but I can guarentee, if you drive after
> just "a few seconds", you are taking valuable life away from your engine.
If you are using a proper grade and weight oil suitable for the temperature,
it is only a matter of seconds before the oil circulates. Then you can
drive off gently until the engine warms up. An engine under light load
warms up faster than let it sit idling. Although idling does no great harm,
you are wasting fuel where it can otherwise be put to some use to get you
somewhere.
BTW, I live in the Great White North and we get the nastiest winters in
the world.
--
vfn...@abegry.pn <-- my email address in Rot-13
Ted Heron
On Tue, 7 Oct 1997, Chris G. wrote:
> In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.971007132405.19630D-100000@solitude> Ted Heron <he...@austx.tandem.com> writes:
>
> >I wouldn't jump to label the prior statement as "bad advice" so quickly -
> >you point out correctly that until an engine is up to operating temp it is
> >in a state of, shall we say, "accelerated wear", where components aren't
> >fitting together well and "miles and miles" are being "shaved off" the
> >life of the engine.
>
> Correct.
>
> >The way to minimize the effects of this is to get the
> >vehicle through the warm-up period as quickly as possible under a light
> >load.
>
> There is no lighter load than idling...and warming up "quickly" is irrelevant.
>
Idling is considered "no load" and getting through the warm up period as
quickly as possible without excessive load is the key to minimizing wear.
>
> >During this time you have bad fitting parts rubbing together
> >exacerbated by an over-rich fuel mixture washing the lubricant off the
> >cylinder walls. This eventually leads to premature ring and/or piston
> >failure.
>
> In a good working fuel induction system, it would not be running an "over-rich
> fuel mixture". If your engine is running 'overly rich' at any time...get it
> repaired at once.
The term "over-rich" (not "overly rich") is used to describe the condition
when more fuel is present in the fuel-air mixture than can possibly
combine with the available oxygen at any given instant in time. When the
engine management controller senses that an engine is "cold" it will cause
the mixture to go to an "over-rich" state and then gradually lean it out
as the engine temperature comes up to the operating range. This is
goodness in terms of making the car start easily and idle well when cold,
but it plays havoc with the upper cylinder lubrication and its another
reason why its important to get the engine up to operating temperature as
quickly as possible.
Have a nice day...
Ted
Leroy Curtis
In article <ckg+.1461...@osu.edu>, "Chris G." <ck...@osu.edu>
writes
>In article <slrn63kmp2.d64.TheC...@xanadu.chisp.net> TheCentral
>Scrutin...@pobox.com () writes:
>
>>idling wastes gas but is totally harmless. You must idle the engine long
>>enough in the morning to allow the engine to become fully lubed. This
>>only takes a few seconds.
>
>Bad advice...proper warm-up should be in the minutes range...but it does
>depend on the ambiet temp. A cold engine...started for only seconds...has not
>gone thru the proper metal expansion, and is "shaving" miles and miles of wear
>off your engine.
>
>Take some advice from a 12 year ASE certified auto tech...let your engines
>warm up well!
>
everything I have read. I understand that idling a cold engine increases
warm-up time, and thus wear, because when the engine is cold the mixture
is so rich that some unburnt petrol gets past the rings and dilutes the
engine oil. The best thing, as I understand it, is to put the engine as
load as soon as possible to warm it up more quickly and allow the
mixture to weaken.
--
Leroy Curtis
Mike Kohlbrenner
Chris G. wrote:
>
> Again..."proper" warm up would be in the minutes range. It is never a good
> idea to load the engine untill the metals have had time to properly expand. I
> know that this senario is subjective...but I can guarentee, if you drive after
> just "a few seconds", you are taking valuable life away from your engine.
Until you can provide a real guarantee -- you know like a 36K/3yr
warranty equivalent to Honda's, I think I will listen to HONDA'S
recommendations over yours, thank you.
It says right in the owner's manual...
...that you, sir, are incorrect.
--
Mike Kohlbrenner
<kohlbren (-a t-) an dot hp dot com> sorry!
Chris G.
>> 1. While warming up your car in the morning.
>Should only take a few seconds, then drive easily for a coupls of miles.
Again..."proper" warm up would be in the minutes range. It is never a good
idea to load the engine untill the metals have had time to properly expand. I
know that this senario is subjective...but I can guarentee, if you drive after
just "a few seconds", you are taking valuable life away from your engine.
Take care.
Nevets
On Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:36:41 GMT, ck...@osu.edu (Chris G.) wrote:
>In article <slrn63kmp2.d64.TheC...@xanadu.chisp.net> TheCentralSc...@pobox.com () writes:
>
>>idling wastes gas but is totally harmless. You must idle the engine long
>>enough in the morning to allow the engine to become fully lubed. This
>>only takes a few seconds.
>
>Bad advice...proper warm-up should be in the minutes range...but it does
>depend on the ambiet temp. A cold engine...started for only seconds...has not
>gone thru the proper metal expansion, and is "shaving" miles and miles of wear
>off your engine.
Bad advice. Idling a car for several minutes only helps to
accelerate wear. Your better off letting the car idle for a bit until
it's settled and then putting it in gear and driving away.
Don't drive hard until car is warmed up, but just sitting there
idling is more harmful on the car.
>Take some advice from a 12 year ASE certified auto tech...let your engines
>warm up well!
I have been. It's just that yours is bad advice.
Nevets
On Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:34:04 GMT, ck...@osu.edu (Chris G.) wrote:
>In article <343A9A...@coe.uga.edu> Steve Cramer <cra...@coe.uga.edu> writes:
>
>>> 1. While warming up your car in the morning.
>
>>Should only take a few seconds, then drive easily for a coupls of miles.
>
>Again..."proper" warm up would be in the minutes range. It is never a good
>idea to load the engine untill the metals have had time to properly expand. I
>know that this senario is subjective...but I can guarentee, if you drive after
>just "a few seconds", you are taking valuable life away from your engine.
No, we've already been through this. *IMPROPER* warm-up would be in
the minutes range.
Nevets
On Tue, 07 Oct 1997 11:45:59 -0400, Rocket <Bo...@ThankYou.Spammers>
wrote:
>Hello everyone,
>
>Lately I have been hearing people saying that idling is not good for
>engine life. Here are every day idling situations:
>
>1. While warming up your car in the morning.
10-20 seconds. Maybe until it comes off of fast idle. Then drive
away moderately until car is warmed up.
>2. While going down-hill (I put the gear in neutral) Will idling be more
>harmfull than letting the engine rev at say 2000 rpm?
No. I don't do this purposefully, but oftentimes when going downhill
I'm also planning to come to a stop and thus go into neutral and hit
the brakes.
>3. Before coming to a complete stop, (I put the gear in neutral instead
>of down shifting to save clutch & engine)
Definately. Down shifting saves brakes at the expense of the clutch.
Unless your going down a mountain, engine braking isn't necessary.
>3. While stuck in traffic.
CAn't be helped. :(
>Can anyone tell me if idling is harmfull or not? and Do I need to change
>some of the above habits to reduce the amount of time my engine idles on
>the average every day?
No, it sounds like normal every day.
The only study I've seen on excess idling was in regards to Diesel
trucks. Oftentimes drivers will leave their trucking idling for long
extended periods of times(overnight for instance). The study found
that there was as much wear down to the engine by idling in this
manner as from driving the truck at a steady 60-70 mph.
The reason was that during idling the engine does not get hot enough.
This is probably more important with diesels, but...
But that's not what your doing, and is completely unrelated. :)
Jordan Blessing
On Tue, 7 Oct 1997 17:36:41 GMT, ck...@osu.edu (Chris G.) wrote:
>In article <slrn63kmp2.d64.TheC...@xanadu.chisp.net> TheCentralSc...@pobox.com () writes:
>
>>idling wastes gas but is totally harmless. You must idle the engine long
>>enough in the morning to allow the engine to become fully lubed. This
>>only takes a few seconds.
>
>Bad advice...proper warm-up should be in the minutes range...but it does
>depend on the ambiet temp. A cold engine...started for only seconds...has not
>gone thru the proper metal expansion, and is "shaving" miles and miles of wear
>off your engine.
>
>Take some advice from a 12 year ASE certified auto tech...let your engines
>warm up well!
>
>
>
>
>
>
>Christopher K. Greenhalgh, N8WCT
>email: ck...@osu.edu
>ax.25: n8wct@w8cqk.#cmh.oh.usa.noam
>[not speaking for my employer]
I say it depends on the engine, some V engines have little or no
splash lubrication to the cam at an idle, accelerated cam wear can be
caused by excessive idle time.
-
J Blessing L1 Master Tech
You MUST remove the "g" from my reply to address if you
want me to get your mail..BLAME THE SPAMMERS!!
Björn Nyhlen
Laura Gjovaag wrote:
>
> > Jim Johnson wrote:
> > > Rocket wrote:
> > > >
> > > > idling be more
> > > > harmfull than letting the engine rev at say 2000 rpm?
> > > >
> >
> > > Rocket, I think #2 is illegal in some states. (Probably Colorado
>
> out why.
>
It's beacuse the brakes otherwise will become overheated in long
downhills.
Björn Nyhlen,Sweden.
James Dean
What about extended idling? I see Highway Patrol cars on construction
duty here often have their hoods propped up about 18 inches, running all
day with the air on full-blast.
And when I go out to the boonies, I often leave my truck running if it's
going to be 15 minutes or less, figuring the block's just going to heat
up and why take a chance on the battery or starter giving me trouble in
a remote location.
My old Uncle Ed used to say if you could keep an engine at a constant
temp, it would virtually NEVER wear out.
What's the facts?
Thanks.
TheCentralSc...@pobox.com
In article <343B9994...@unx1.shsu.edu>, Johnny Suppatkul wrote:
>> I remember this as being illegal in Washington, though I couldn't figure
>> out why.
>>
>> -Laura Gjovaag
>
> I think it's illegal in Washington for multiple safety reasons, with all
>those hills and the constant wet weather I believe that the engine braking
>helps.
uh huh. Braking with two wheels instead of four. Engine breaking may have
made sense to reduce brake fade 30 years ago but those crappy brakes are a
thing of the past.
mands-v
she...@yuck.net (Nevets) wrote:
snip:
talk about warm-up:
also fuel consumption on deisels is so great when they
are cold that to get 60 quarts of oil up to temp can
take a very long time.
lets laugh: diesel (heavy haul long range)
locomotives.
" it has been told to me " ok,...
but it sounds like a valid reason.
it has been told to me that they leave these engines
going 24 hours a day if the train-ets are out of
service for only 3 days or so. why .... because they
require so much time to warm up and the fuel
consumption is so great at the begining of warmup that
they deemed it fuel efficient to leave them running.
i would welcome anyone with some input to validate the
above statement. like i said...it has been told to me.
( one of my auto shop classes )
Paul Jones
Nevets wrote in article <3445d4e4....@news.visi.com>...
>On Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:34:04 GMT, ck...@osu.edu (Chris G.) wrote:
>
>>In article <343A9A...@coe.uga.edu> Steve Cramer <cra...@coe.uga.edu>
writes:
>>
>>
miles.
>>
>>Again..."proper" warm up would be in the minutes range. It is never a
good
>>idea to load the engine untill the metals have had time to properly
expand. I
>>know that this senario is subjective...but I can guarentee, if you drive
after
>>just "a few seconds", you are taking valuable life away from your
engine.
>
> No, we've already been through this. *IMPROPER* warm-up would be in
>the minutes range.
>
>
I talked to my Honda dealer about warming up my 97 Civic HX CVT. My
concern was about the transmission performance under extreme cold
conditions. He told me I need to let the car warm up before I can expect
the CVT to perform normally. He says that "Honda recommends that the you
idle the car for up to 15 minutes in extreme cold to warm the engine and
transmission." He claims this is true for automatics, manuals, and CVTs.
I told him the reason I was driving the car right away was to warm the
engine up quicker (under *light* load). He said don't do that. The Civics
(at least the new ones) rev the engine higher during idle when the temp is
below a certain point specifically for warm-up purpose. He said by driving
the car before letting it warm up at (high-speed) idle, I may be putting
unnecessary wear on the transmission.
Summary: Let the car idle to warm up. That's why Honda put a "fast idle
when cold" feature on the car.
Just my .02
-Paul Jones
<pej...@jmbest.net>
1997 Honda Civic HX CVT
1989 Honda Civic DX HB
Ted Heron
When you move into the realm of extreme temperatures, depending on what
car you're driving, you may be forced to do things differently than you
would in more moderate weather. Certainly if your automobile simply won't
operate correctly if its too cold you won't have the luxury of optimizing
the warm up period for minimum wear. Still once your Honda gets warm
enough for the transmission to start working right you might consider
driving off under a light load to minimize the time it takes to get fully
up to operating temperature.
Just curious - what does it say in the Honda manual about warm up?
On Wed, 8 Oct 1997, Paul Jones wrote:
>
> I talked to my Honda dealer about warming up my 97 Civic HX CVT. My
> concern was about the transmission performance under extreme cold
> conditions. He told me I need to let the car warm up before I can expect
> the CVT to perform normally. He says that "Honda recommends that the you
<snip>
Ryan Rahim
Mike Kohlbrenner (No.Ju...@My.Mailbox) wrote:
: Chris G. wrote:
: >
: > Again..."proper" warm up would be in the minutes range. It is never a good
: > idea to load the engine untill the metals have had time to properly expand. I
: > know that this senario is subjective...but I can guarentee, if you drive after
: > just "a few seconds", you are taking valuable life away from your engine.
: Until you can provide a real guarantee -- you know like a 36K/3yr
: warranty equivalent to Honda's, I think I will listen to HONDA'S
: recommendations over yours, thank you.
: It says right in the owner's manual...
: ...that you, sir, are incorrect.
The VW owner's manual states that it is unnecessary to idle a car to warm
up. Just start and drive moderately. They don't have much of a fast idle
either, at the most + 200 rpm.
In the mornings, I start my car and let it run for 5-6 seconds before
leaving. I keep it below 3000 rpm, and wait till oil temperature hits 82
degrees celsius before Vrrrrrrrrooooommm.
Ryan
: : --
: Mike Kohlbrenner
: <kohlbren (-a t-) an dot hp dot com> sorry!
--
Fahrvergnugen...the most *fun* you can have in your clothes
Jordan Blessing
>Summary: Let the car idle to warm up. That's why Honda put a "fast idle
>when cold" feature on the car.
>
>Just my .02
>
>-Paul Jones
><pej...@jmbest.net>
> 1997 Honda Civic HX CVT
> 1989 Honda Civic DX HB
>
>
>
Actually the fast idle on newer cars is primarily to get the O2 sensor
up to operating temp sooner to meet EPA requirements more than
anything else.
Vogt Family
Paul Jones wrote:
>
> Nevets wrote in article <3445d4e4....@news.visi.com>...
> >On Tue, 7 Oct 1997 18:34:04 GMT, ck...@osu.edu (Chris G.) wrote:
> >
> >>In article <343A9A...@coe.uga.edu> Steve Cramer <cra...@coe.uga.edu>
> writes:
> >>
> >>>> 1. While warming up your car in the morning.
> >>
> >>>Should only take a few seconds, then drive easily for a coupls of
> miles.
> >>
> good
> >>idea to load the engine untill the metals have had time to properly
> expand. I
> >>know that this senario is subjective...but I can guarentee, if you drive
> after
> >>just "a few seconds", you are taking valuable life away from your
> engine.
> >
> >the minutes range.
> >
> >
>
> concern was about the transmission performance under extreme cold
> conditions. He told me I need to let the car warm up before I can expect
> the CVT to perform normally. He says that "Honda recommends that the you
> transmission." He claims this is true for automatics, manuals, and CVTs.
> I told him the reason I was driving the car right away was to warm the
> engine up quicker (under *light* load). He said don't do that. The Civics
> (at least the new ones) rev the engine higher during idle when the temp is
> below a certain point specifically for warm-up purpose. He said by driving
> the car before letting it warm up at (high-speed) idle, I may be putting
> unnecessary wear on the transmission.
>
> when cold" feature on the car.
Honda did not invent the fast idle. It has been around since before
Hondas were invented. My guess is it is mostly to keep the engine from
dying as idle RPM is often a marginal running condition as it is and if
the engine is not yet normalized the situation can get so bad as to not
allow idle at all. Modern fuel-injected cars do not seem to fast idle
any more, probably because they have such a tight rein on fuel control
due to their individual cylinder injectors and sensors such as the
crankshaft sensor which can tell them engine position down to a few
degrees, plus the extremely powerful and variable direct ignition
system, plus other things I have probably forgotten to mention...
IMO computers are the best thing that happened to engines and
transmissions, if engineered well to fit the hardware.
Back to the subject, however, my Chevy 350 has an old Rochester 4MV
which has no fast idle, due to a spring which was there originally and
now is not, for whatever reason, which is only my best guess. However
upon starting, as soon as the manifold develops enough vacuum, the choke
is pulled off far enough to eliminate any effect it might have on the
air/fuel mix at idle. Sometimes, when extremely cold, it may cause the
motor to go through an oscillation (fires up - vacuum develops - choke
pulled off - too lean, misfires - vacuum drops - fires again - and it
runs) or two. At this point I drive off, mostly because I am late and
don't have the time to think about proper warm-up procedure. However,
due to the aforementioned choke pull-off, I would not feel worried about
idling this particular engine for long periods to warm up. YMMV.
Birken T. Vogt - KE6DLT
Nate B.
On Wed, 8 Oct 1997, Laura Gjovaag wrote:
> > > I remember this as being illegal in Washington, though I couldn't figure
> > > out why.
> > >
> > > -Laura Gjovaag
> >
> > I think it's illegal in Washington for multiple safety reasons, with all
> > those hills and the constant wet weather I believe that the engine braking
> > helps.
> >
> > -Johnny Suppatkul
>
> You're gonna have to explain this to me in small words. Why is coasting
> down hills in neutral any worse than moving down hills in gear? I think
> I just don't understand some basic concept here...
>
> As for wet weather, until today I had forgotten what a good rain sounds
> like. It's been too dry up here lately.
It really isn't safe to coast in neutral no matter where you do it.
Should you need to accelerate for any reason, you can't do it immediately
and 2 seconds from now might be too late. Coasting down a hill would tend
to make you ride the brakes to slow down. If you're on a big enough hill
and you do this all the way down, you're going to have to toasty (toasted)
brakes that aren't going to stop you worth a crap if you actually have to
use them.
Nate B.
On WWW: http://cord.iupui.edu/~nrbeache
To reply, add 'cord.' in the return address so it looks like my URL.
Yong Lim
In article <61h1tc$lol$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>,
<el...@central.cis.upenn.edu.nospam> wrote:
>In article <343BA5...@eskimo.com>, Laura Gjovaag <te...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>>> > I remember this as being illegal in Washington, though I couldn't figure
>>> > out why.
>>> >
>>> > -Laura Gjovaag
>>>
>>> I think it's illegal in Washington for multiple safety reasons, with all
>>> those hills and the constant wet weather I believe that the engine braking
>>> helps.
>>>
>>> -Johnny Suppatkul
>>
>>You're gonna have to explain this to me in small words. Why is coasting
>>down hills in neutral any worse than moving down hills in gear? I think
>>I just don't understand some basic concept here...
>
>car in neutral than in gear, which makes it more dangerous to be
>in neutral than in gear.
>
>
>
Let me add one more comment. Once the car is in N, there are more chances that
the car will stall when it is coasting. Then, power assisted components are
out of drivers control. What'll happen next?
Yong
--
Yong Je Lim
Sr. Component Design Engineer | yon...@ptdcs2.intel.com
Intel Co., PTD | Phone: (503)613-7665
MS: RA1-303 | Fax : (503)613-8261
Mars
Re: High-speed idling in cold weather
NOTE: unfortunately, many manufactures have designed cars in recent years
to do a High-Speed idle during certain conditions. NOTE: this is not for
the engine or the transmission, this is so that automobiles equipped with
catalytic converters can warm the catalyst faster and produce less in
emissions. It actually does put more wear on the engine, but allows the
car to comply with emissions regulations (esp., late model RX7s).
Summon thunder, pilot a rotary...
Mars
Edward Chang
Does anyone know if there is a turbo timer for Volvo? I have a 94 volvo
850turbo and I can't find a turbo timer for my car. I asked around about
the HKS turbo timer, but they said they don't make the wiring for Volvo.
does anyone know if there is anything for volvo out there?
thanx
Ed
Nate B.
On 9 Oct 1997, Mehmet Gokturk wrote:
> Idling is not good for the engine:
>
> 1- Oil pressure goes down, -> cooling via oil goes down
> 2- Water circulation goes down -> so the cooling
> 3- oil pressure goes down -> so the lubrication
I'm sorry, but none of these points are valid. Just because you are
coasting at 130 mph doesn't mean the engine needs more cooling because you
are going that fast. If anything, it's getting cooled plenty by the
passing air. At idle, your car puts out plenty of oil pressure to let the
oil do it's job of lubrication.
> 4- You may not get back to gear if there is problem with gears
> if an emergency happens. (or you may screw it up with rush)
THAT'S the whole point of not coasting (I took the liberty to edit your
sentance to say what you meant to say).
Mehmet Gokturk
Laura Gjovaag (te...@eskimo.com) wrote:
: > > I remember this as being illegal in Washington, though I couldn't figure
: > > out why.
: > >
: > > -Laura Gjovaag
: >
: > I think it's illegal in Washington for multiple safety reasons, with all
: > those hills and the constant wet weather I believe that the engine braking
: > helps.
On older vehicles the vacuum level goes down on idle. So the breaking
goes down. Therefore if you are not sure about breaking power at neutral
you should check it at a proper safe time.
Idling is not good for the engine:
1- Oil pressure goes down, -> cooling via oil goes down
2- Water circulation goes down -> so the cooling
3- oil pressure goes down -> so the lubrication
4- You may not get back to gear fi ther eis problem with gears
if an emergency happens. (or you may screw it up with rush)
However, i sometimes put neutral (stick) while going down the hill
for 5-10 seconds. This helps me to listen the car and detect if
anything sounds wrong etc. I don't think idling "relieves" the
engine.
Idling in the morning: depends on the car. Some cars need 5 minutes
idling otherwise they won't go anywhere. A ten second idling before
shifting into gear and smooth driving (without) hard pressing the
gas is necessary (one better do it anytime though).
cold engine (in first 10 minutes of driving) has more wear
because cylinders are not expanded yet at that time. This
wear also happens if you remove thermostat completely. Cold
engine is not good.
I hop this helps.
Mehmet
: >
: > -Johnny Suppatkul
: You're gonna have to explain this to me in small words. Why is coasting
: down hills in neutral any worse than moving down hills in gear? I think
: I just don't understand some basic concept here...
: As for wet weather, until today I had forgotten what a good rain sounds
: like. It's been too dry up here lately.
: -Laura Gjovaag
--
# Mehmet Gokturk The George Washington University #
# http://www.seas.gwu.edu/student/gokturk #
Jordan Kovats
I don't mean to be rude, but I think everyone is getting a little
paranoid here. First off, I doubt that an engine would be designed to be
harmed when idling. And two, The drive (high rpm) : idle (low rpm) ratio
is probably so big that it doesn't really matter in the whole scheme of
things. i.e. the life of the car. And as far as saving your engines and
clutches when coming to a stop in neutral, what about saving your
brakes? I know of a heck of a lot more brake jobs than blown engine
replacements each year. I can't help but think about a quote I heard
after reading this thread. Some people drive like they own the road,
some people drive like they own their cars. The latter is obviously
applicable here.
--
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/
| I have never seen a statue of a critic.
Jordan Kovats | Most statues are of people who actually
jko...@uoguelph.ca | went out and did something.
|
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
White Tornado
Why do people spend cash on stupid stuff like turbo timers? Just
drive the car in a reasonable manner a few minutes prior to shutdown.
How hard is that?
Mehmet Gokturk
Nate B. (nrbe...@iupui.edu) wrote:
: On 9 Oct 1997, Mehmet Gokturk wrote:
: > Idling is not good for the engine:
: >
: > 1- Oil pressure goes down, -> cooling via oil goes down
: > 2- Water circulation goes down -> so the cooling
: > 3- oil pressure goes down -> so the lubrication
: I'm sorry, but none of these points are valid. Just because you are
They are valid. You need to transfer the heat to radiator. It happens
better if you have higher rpm.
I am not going to mention about oil pressure and its effects.
Thanks for clarifiying the most important 4th one. I agree 100%.
Mehmet
: coasting at 130 mph doesn't mean the engine needs more cooling because you
: are going that fast. If anything, it's getting cooled plenty by the
: passing air. At idle, your car puts out plenty of oil pressure to let the
: oil do it's job of lubrication.
: > 4- You may not get back to gear if there is problem with gears
: > if an emergency happens. (or you may screw it up with rush)
: THAT'S the whole point of not coasting (I took the liberty to edit your
: sentance to say what you meant to say).
: Nate B.
: On WWW: http://cord.iupui.edu/~nrbeache
: To reply, add 'cord.' in the return address so it looks like my URL.
Mehmet Gokturk
I agree. I my country (Turkey) there are signs for truckers saying
"Do not put to neutral" because they may never get back to gear
or stop with their brakes. Sor small japanese cars it's not a problem.
But for Big power assisted ones, it is important. You gotta have
power assist.
Mehmet
Nate B. (nrbe...@iupui.edu) wrote:
: On Wed, 8 Oct 1997, Nathan Heid wrote:
: > > Let me add one more comment. Once the car is in N, there are more chances that
: > > the car will stall when it is coasting. Then, power assisted components are
: > > out of drivers control. What'll happen next?
: >
: > I don't know. What? Excepting large cars which pretty much all have
: > automatics anyway, I don't see that losing power steering and brakes
: > would lead to the end of the world.
: Um, if your brakes suddenly require twice the force on the pedal to do the
: same amount of work when you have to come to an abrupt halt, you could be
: in deep doo doo. Same with power steering should you have to make some
: quick maneuvers with suddenly non-power steering.
Nathan Hendler
TheCentralSc...@pobox.com wrote:
: In article <343B9994...@unx1.shsu.edu>, Johnny Suppatkul wrote:
: >> I remember this as being illegal in Washington, though I couldn't figure
: >> out why.
: >>
: >> -Laura Gjovaag
: >
: > I think it's illegal in Washington for multiple safety reasons, with all
: >those hills and the constant wet weather I believe that the engine braking
: >helps.
: uh huh. Braking with two wheels instead of four. Engine breaking may have
: made sense to reduce brake fade 30 years ago but those crappy brakes are a
: thing of the past.
Well, I learned to drive in the mountains of Colorado, and here's what I
was told... Don't coast down mountain roads because your brakes might wear
out. Don't coast in town because you won't be able to accelerate quickly
in the face of danger.
Regardless, I coast in cities, and I pretty much don't coast down mountain
roads. Coasting down mountain roads is what flatlanders do, it's anoying
as hell because their speed varies, and they never pull over, they just
get scared. I wish people who didn't know how to drive a mountain road
would learn that pulling off to the side of the road for a few seconds to
let the cars behind them go by is a very nice gesture, and adds hardly any
time to their trip.
Nathan
Victor Wood
Chris,
Here in Germany its illegal to let your car idle to warm up, but its
also illegal to drive with a misted windscreen........
So here you must scrap the ice of the car, no chemicals are allowed and
you mustnt make a noise either, then start the car and drive at once,
stop the car amd motor whilst you de ice again, get in the car and start
it driving off at once......keep going like that till its warm.
Typical crap ehh????
I ignore these stupid laws.
Victor
Chris G. wrote:
> In article <slrn63kmp2.d64.TheC...@xanadu.chisp.net>
> TheCentralSc...@pobox.com () writes:
>
> >idling wastes gas but is totally harmless. You must idle the engine
> long
> >enough in the morning to allow the engine to become fully lubed.
> This
> >only takes a few seconds.
>
> Bad advice...proper warm-up should be in the minutes range...but it
> does
> depend on the ambiet temp. A cold engine...started for only
> seconds...has not
> gone thru the proper metal expansion, and is "shaving" miles and miles
> of wear
> off your engine.
>
> Take some advice from a 12 year ASE certified auto tech...let your
> engines
> warm up well!
>
> =01=01
Mike Kohlbrenner
Jordan Kovats wrote:
>
> ... First off, I doubt that an engine would be designed to be
> harmed when idling.
Engines are never "designed" to be harmed under ANY conditions. Rather,
they are designed to try to MINIMIZE harm under various conditions.
> And two, The drive (high rpm) : idle (low rpm) ratio
> is probably so big that it doesn't really matter in the whole scheme of
> things. i.e. the life of the car.
Well, the harm-when-cold : harm-when-warm ratio is bad enough that
minimizing the time spent running a cold engine will indeed have an
effect on the total wear of a given engine.
> And as far as saving your engines and clutches when coming to a
> stop in neutral, what about saving your brakes? I know of a heck
> of a lot more brake jobs than blown engine replacements each year.
And they are usually an order of magnitude cheaper.
That's the point.
Mike Kohlbrenner
Paul Jones wrote:
>
> I talked to my Honda dealer about warming up my 97 Civic HX CVT...
> ... He told me I need to let the car warm up before I can expect
> the CVT to perform normally. He says that "Honda recommends that the you
> idle the car for up to 15 minutes in extreme cold to warm the engine and
> transmission." He claims this is true for automatics, manuals, and CVTs.
If you had this question, why didn't you RTFM? There is actually a
section in our '95 Accord owner's manual which essentially states
that you should "idle at startup for no more than 30 seconds regardless
of how cold it is."
And how much warming up of the transmission is going to happen when
you are motionless?
> I told him the reason I was driving the car right away was to warm the
> engine up quicker (under *light* load).
This is correct...
> He said don't do that.
He is likely wrong!
> The Civics
> (at least the new ones) rev the engine higher during idle when the temp is
> below a certain point specifically for warm-up purpose.
This is nothing new. My '90 does this. The reason for fast idle is
simply that cold engines don't run very well, especially at idle. So,
fast idle kicks on and the mixture is richened (choke), which also helps
a cold engine run better.
> He said by driving the car before letting it warm up at (high-speed)
> idle, I may be putting unnecessary wear on the transmission.
This is total B.S. When you are driving, YOU control the rpms and
uless you are crawling, they will be significantly higher than even
the fast idle rpm.
> Summary: Let the car idle to warm up. That's why Honda put a "fast idle
> when cold" feature on the car.
Well, my summary is this:
-Dealers are not necessarily correct on matters relating to the autos
they sell and service.
-Unknown people on the Net, however well intentioned and however well
qualified, are not necessarily correct on matters relating to
autos.
-READ THE FREAKING MANUAL (RTFM). Your answers are in there.
Ali Nabeel
So here's my question. When I idle my car i do it after I pull out of
the garage, do the 10-12 feet of driving as I pull out to the driveway
(level not inclined) harm the engine? Should I idle in the garage and
get happy on CO fumes?
--
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Hear everything, believe nothing" |Nabeel Ali
--The 190th Rule of Acquisition |al...@magellan.umontreal.ca
|http://alcor.concordia.ca/~stali
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Michele D'Amico
Mike Kohlbrenner wrote:
> Chris G. wrote:
> >
> > Again..."proper" warm up would be in the minutes range.
What we read in our car magazines (and user's manuals) is NOT to warm
up
the car idling for more than, say, 30 seconds. One reason for that is
that
the QUICKER the engine warms up, the QUICKER the corrosive action
of the exaust vapour ends. They state that combustion water vapour mixed
to exaust
smoke creates a quite corrosive mixture, that is harmful to the whole
exaust system. When the exaust pipeline is cold, this vapour condensates
and
attacks the metal. So you want to warm up everything as soon as
possible, and
driving GENTLY is (they say) the best way.
But, maybe that's only another urban mith !
Enjoy motoring.
Michele
--
===============================================================
Michele D'AMICO E-Mail:dam...@elet.polimi.it
- If you are really motivated, you can visit my WEB page at:
http://www.elet.polimi.it/people/damico
===============================================================
Victor Smith
On Thu, 09 Oct 1997 23:04:24 +0100, Victor Wood <vic...@shiraz.muc.de>
wrote:
>Chris,
>
>Here in Germany its illegal to let your car idle to warm up, but its
>also illegal to drive with a misted windscreen........
>
>So here you must scrap the ice of the car, no chemicals are allowed and
>you mustnt make a noise either, then start the car and drive at once,
>stop the car amd motor whilst you de ice again, get in the car and start
>it driving off at once......keep going like that till its warm.
>
>
>Typical crap ehh????
>
>I ignore these stupid laws.
>
>Victor
>
Which law, the no idling law, the driving with misted windshield law,
the no chemical law, or the mustn't make a noise while scraping law, or
all of them? Sounds like too many damn laws to me. I don't blame you
a bit for ignoring them. Just imagine how the autobahn would look in
the wintertime if everybody obeyed these laws. If it was really cold
and windy, you'd have to pull over every 100 metres or so, engine off,
to quietly scrape your windscreen, and while you were scraping, your
engine and windscreen would cool down in the wind. Also, as the fully
warmed Mercs and BMWs are blowing by a +160kmh, their draft is blowing
more mist on your windscreen, where it freezes, perhaps as fast as it
can be quietly scraped off. One vicious circle, eh? I do think you
could get away with breaking the no-noise-while-scaping law while pulled
over on the autobahn, as the cars roaring by would mask the sound of
your scraping.
But wait a minute. Is there a law entirely forbidding windscreen
scraping on the autobahn? If so, never mind what I said, as the answer
would then be to just drive with a misted windscreen until the engine
warms up, breaking that law, while perhaps for safety's sake holding a
shaving mirror out the side window for guidance. Or maybe break the
idling law, and let the windscreen warm up before getting on the
autobahn. The downside to that is if you are cited for unlawful idling,
your engine will cool down as the ticket is being written, setting you 2
steps back. Maybe 3 steps, should your windscreen also remist while
you wait in the car, sheltered from the wind, if not the law.
Of all these laws, I think I could really enjoy breaking the mustn't
make a noise while scraping the windshield law, despite any fines
that may entail.
--Vic
Stephen Cheung
: > I talked to my Honda dealer about warming up my 97 Civic HX CVT...
: > ... He told me I need to let the car warm up before I can expect
: > the CVT to perform normally. He says that "Honda recommends that the you
: > idle the car for up to 15 minutes in extreme cold to warm the engine and
: > transmission." He claims this is true for automatics, manuals, and CVTs.
This sounds like a typical dealer ruse to get you off their back. Out of
curiousity, i think you should try test driving another Civic with
the CVT, first thing in the morning on a cold day just to see if it truly
is "normal" to have the CVT perform poorly when cold. I've heard
enough crap from salesmen that i think the mental "BS" meter on this one
is inching towards the high side.
stephen cheung
--
Stephen Cheung
512-916-8324 anytime.
ste...@cyberservices.com
Mike Kohlbrenner
Marc wrote:
>
> nos...@spamco.com (White Tornado) said:
> >Why do people spend cash on stupid stuff like turbo timers? Just
> >drive the car in a reasonable manner a few minutes prior to shutdown.
> >How hard is that?
>
> hthe engine on when a cheap accessory will automatically turn it off for
> them?
That's a good point...
...BUT -- only if you also have "timers" for the engine, the
brakes, etc. When I used to auto-X, I always drove the car
around for a while after each run to let the brakes and engine
cool down. I don't have a turbo...
> How about people that know they will be taking short trips that they
> don't want to have to wait around at the end of to let it cool down during?
How many people making short trips are actually going to "use" the
turbo?
White Tornado 1
What you can't let your car idle for a minute and then shut the key
off? Sounds like HK$ took some money from you. I have 82K miles on a
Mitsu 14G turbo and have heaped the abuse upon it, not problems.
Drive sane for the last minute of operation and you'll have no
problems.
>Doofus, what is someone supposed to do at an autocross? They aren't
>allowed to circle the pits for a few minutes, and they certainly aren't
>going to drive in a sane manner while on the autocross course.
Marc
nos...@spamco.com (White Tornado) said:
>Doofus, just drive in a sane and controlled manner for the last minute
>that you are driving and you will not need a turbo timer. Modern
>water cooled turbos are very durable.
>Turbo Timers are just one more way for HK$ and Greddy to extract cash
>from the unwitting and dopey masses.
Doofus, what is someone supposed to do at an autocross? They aren't
allowed to circle the pits for a few minutes, and they certainly aren't
going to drive in a sane manner while on the autocross course.
You myopic view isn't representative of many other drivers, and you seem
ignorant of others needs.
Marc
For email, remove second "y" from Gum...@tamu.edu
P.J. Hartman
"Nate B." <nrbe...@iupui.edu> wrote:
>On Thu, 9 Oct 1997, White Tornado wrote:
>
>> Why do people spend cash on stupid stuff like turbo timers? Just
>> drive the car in a reasonable manner a few minutes prior to shutdown.
>> How hard is that?
>
>What the heck is a turbo timer, anyway?
It's a device that allows you to remove your key, lock your car and
walk away while it idles the engine for you for ~60 seconds (usually
adjustable) before shutting down. This allows the oil to circulate
and provide cooling to the turbo.
Alternatively, some folks prefer to install a post-oiler rather than
have the engine left idling. These usually are a pressurized chamber
which contains oil. The pressure is built up from the normal oil
pressure, and stores several quarts of oil. After the ignition is
off, the post-oiler releases the oil, under pressure, into the engine
to provide lubrication. Many of these items can also be configured to
be used as pre-oilers as well.
--
P.J. Hartman hartman{at}tconl{dot}com
Corvette, Talon, MGB, ZX-11, GS450LX, and Sonata
Adour Vahe Kabakian
In article <61j21p$l8...@beaker.nit.gwu.edu>,
Mehmet Gokturk <gok...@seas.gwu.edu> wrote:
(in the contex of coasting)
>They are valid. You need to transfer the heat to radiator. It happens
>better if you have higher rpm.
But higher RPMs also produce more heat.
I rarely coast, and I do it only if I can maintain an acceptable speed
without having to ride the brakes. On those occasions, my temperature
gauge has gone down. That alone proves your point not to be an issue,
at least for my car.
-adour
Kevin McMurtrie, mcmurtri at wco.com
>In article <343B9994...@unx1.shsu.edu>, Johnny Suppatkul wrote:
>>> I remember this as being illegal in Washington, though I couldn't figure
>>> out why.
>>>
>>> -Laura Gjovaag
>>
>>Laura,
>> I think it's illegal in Washington for multiple safety reasons, with all
>>those hills and the constant wet weather I believe that the engine braking
>>helps.
>
>uh huh. Braking with two wheels instead of four. Engine breaking may have
>made sense to reduce brake fade 30 years ago but those crappy brakes are a
>thing of the past.
Dumbass.
1) Go drive your modern car down a long steep highway and then tell us how much it cost to fix your car.
2) Apply the brakes going down a steep highway slick with rain, oil, and tree sap from logging trucks. Try it first in low gear. Now try it in neutral or high gear. Notice in the second test that your wheels came to a dead stop over the slippery area. Now watch yourself crash.
Most likely, you don't live near any mountains with a fast elevation change of even 1000 feet. I hope you don't live near me.
Forg
> >drive the car in a reasonable manner a few minutes prior to shutdown.
> >How hard is that?
>
> hthe engine on when a cheap accessory will automatically turn it off for
> don't want to have to wait around at the end of to let it cool down during?
If the trips are short enough, there's no need to let it idle-down
anyway. The problem with a turbo timer is that you can't leave it
in-gear when it's parked; and I was always taught to park a car in-gear.
It's unnatural otherwise ...
--
Forg! -=DUH#6=- (Y1)
"To Err is Human. To Flame is Divine."
Nevets
On 10 Oct 1997 11:17:43 -0500, step...@cs.utexas.edu (Stephen Cheung)
wrote:
You are aware that the rear defroster in the Integra also acts as a
radio antenna?
But only the top 2 lines, and the third from the bottom, which happen
to not function on my vehicle.
Or so sayeth my dealer.
Stephen Cheung
: >They are valid. You need to transfer the heat to radiator. It happens
: >better if you have higher rpm.
: But higher RPMs also produce more heat.
If you have a thermostat that is a little clogged, or a semi-weak
water pump, increasing the rpms will lower the temperature of the engine.
Usually , high RPMs end up causing cavitation in the water pump which
Harold Davey
Long idling on a cold engine is not good for it. First a short warm up
is needed to allow the oil to recoat all the upper cylinder/piston parts
before stressing them under high power. However extended warmup (over
one or two minutes is not good either as the spark plugs will not get
hot and plug fouling (from oil blow-by and unburned fuel) will begin to
build up.
HalD
Stephen Cheung wrote:
>
> : > I talked to my Honda dealer about warming up my 97 Civic HX CVT...
> : > ... He told me I need to let the car warm up before I can expect
> : > the CVT to perform normally. He says that "Honda recommends that the you
> : > idle the car for up to 15 minutes in extreme cold to warm the engine and
> : > transmission." He claims this is true for automatics, manuals, and CVTs.
>
> This sounds like a typical dealer ruse to get you off their back. Out of
> curiousity, i think you should try test driving another Civic with
> the CVT, first thing in the morning on a cold day just to see if it truly
> is "normal" to have the CVT perform poorly when cold. I've heard
> enough crap from salesmen that i think the mental "BS" meter on this one
> is inching towards the high side.
> stephen cheung
> --
> Stephen Cheung
> 512-916-8324 anytime.
> ste...@cyberservices.com
--
"You don't know what it is that you don't know."
(Ignorance is not bliss, nor is it stupidity.)
David Post x2878
White Tornado (nos...@spamco.com) wrote:
>Why do people spend cash on stupid stuff like turbo timers? Just
>drive the car in a reasonable manner a few minutes prior to shutdown.
>How hard is that?
It is easy, but it doesn't help much. Synthetic oil does, though.
David Post po...@fc.hp.com These opinions are mine and mine alone.
Joseph Lee
Nevets <she...@yuck.net> spawned virtual particles writing:
: Definately. Down shifting saves brakes at the expense of the clutch.
: Unless your going down a mountain, engine braking isn't necessary.
I assume clutch wear is the result of shifting that's involved as the
engine slows the car? What if there's no shifting involved; still wear?
--
Joseph nugundam =netcom=com/==\=IIGS=/==\=Playstation=/==\=Civic HX CVT=/==\
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Richard Bell
In article <3446982f....@news.uswest.net>,
P.J. Hartman <har...@NOSPAM.tconl.com> wrote:
>Laura Gjovaag <te...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>>
>>I remember this as being illegal in Washington, though I couldn't figure
>>out why.
>
>a long steep grade, the less engine braking you use, the more heat
>your brakes must dissipate.
In my opinion, the most important value of engine braking when going downhill
is that your brakelights coming on actually means something.
Nate B.
On Sun, 12 Oct 1997, Joseph Lee wrote:
> Nevets <she...@yuck.net> spawned virtual particles writing:
> : Definately. Down shifting saves brakes at the expense of the clutch.
> : Unless your going down a mountain, engine braking isn't necessary.
>
> I assume clutch wear is the result of shifting that's involved as the
> engine slows the car? What if there's no shifting involved; still wear?
Down shifting while going downhill saves brakes at the expense of the
clutch, but only if you don't use some kind of rev matching technique to
do so. Once the clutch is engaged, there is no wear on it unless it is
slipping already.
Chris G.
>> Again..."proper" warm up would be in the minutes range. It is never a good
>> idea to load the engine untill the metals have had time to properly expand. I
>> know that this senario is subjective...but I can guarentee, if you drive after
>> just "a few seconds", you are taking valuable life away from your engine.
>Until you can provide a real guarantee -- you know like a 36K/3yr
>warranty equivalent to Honda's, I think I will listen to HONDA'S
>recommendations over yours, thank you.
A warranty is supplied with a car for two reasons...one...to compete with the
other warrantys out there, and two...to assure that one does not recieve a
'lemon', buy guaranteeing the covered aspects, for a limited time of the
FIRST used time.
I certainly would be willing to supply the same warrenty to an engine as
Honda, if you were to follow my advice.
>It says right in the owner's manual...
> ...that you, sir, are incorrect.
Wrong...it doesnt say Im wrong...it simply says their *recommendations* for
warm-up are different than mine.
BTW...Im certainly not "forcing" my experiences on anybody...but I have seen
many engines torn down, and have documented patterns for wear, based on how
those engine were treated, including warm-up.
I will also say that anybody who believes all manufactures *recommendations*
without question, are not doing themselves any favors in regards to their
engine/cars.
Take care.
K. McCracken
In article <61h1tc$lol$1...@netnews.upenn.edu>, el...@central.cis.upenn.edu.nospam wrote:
>In article <343BA5...@eskimo.com>, Laura Gjovaag <te...@eskimo.com> wrote:
>>> > I remember this as being illegal in Washington, though I couldn't figure
>>> > out why.
>>> >
>>>
>>> I think it's illegal in Washington for multiple safety reasons, with all
>>> those hills and the constant wet weather I believe that the engine braking
>>> helps.
>>>
>>
>>You're gonna have to explain this to me in small words. Why is coasting
>>down hills in neutral any worse than moving down hills in gear? I think
>>I just don't understand some basic concept here...
>
>My understanding of it has always been that it's harder to control a
>car in neutral than in gear, which makes it more dangerous to be
>in neutral than in gear.
It's not harder to control the car, but it's harder to stop. The transmission
also helps to slow the car.
Mike Kohlbrenner
Chris G. wrote:
> ...
> >It says right in the owner's manual...
> > ...that you, sir, are incorrect.
>
> Wrong...it doesnt say Im wrong...it simply says their *recommendations* for
> warm-up are different than mine.
Call it what you like...
> BTW...Im certainly not "forcing" my experiences on anybody...but I have seen
> many engines torn down, and have documented patterns for wear, based on how
> those engine were treated, including warm-up.
Care to provide us all with this "proof" to support your claims
regarding
the best way to warm up a modern Honda engine?
> I will also say that anybody who believes all manufactures *recommendations*
> without question, are not doing themselves any favors in regards to their
> engine/cars.
One could certainly say the same thing in reference to unknown usenet
participants like yourself.
I will continue to follow _HONDA'S_ "recommendations"...
TheCentralSc...@pobox.com
In article <6248dn$i15$1...@bigdog.eli.net>, Enter Your Name Here wrote:
>
>So, let's put a cold engine under load with the choke on, and wash EVEN MORE
>oil off the cylinder walls. Think how poorly it runs. Where does all that
>gas go? Past the rings, into the oil pan. Oh yeah, that's real good for the
>engine, and good for rings too. Also driveability and mileage suck!
Choke? You drive a 20 year old car?
Ted Heron
>
> So, let's put a cold engine under load with the choke on, and wash EVEN MORE
> oil off the cylinder walls. Think how poorly it runs. Where does all that
> gas go? Past the rings, into the oil pan. Oh yeah, that's real good for the
> engine, and good for rings too. Also driveability and mileage suck!
>
All the scenarios for warm-up are ugly, that's why its so hard on your
engine and accounts for such a great percentage of total wear - that's
also why it is advantageous to minimize the time you spend in "warm-up"
and why the manufacturers recommend driving the car to warm it up.
If you are having driveability problems during warm-up then there is
something wrong with your car and you may want to fix it.
You're right, mileage sucks during warm-up but its a whole lot better if
you're driving your car than if its just sitting in your driveway.
>
> I think what the auto manufacturers mean is, start the engine, let it idle
>
You can tell what the manufactures *mean* by reading what they *say* -
that is: drive your car to warm it up.
Have a nice day...
Ted
Enter Your Name Here
In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.971007132405.19630D-100000@solitude>,
he...@austx.tandem.com says...
>
>
>I wouldn't jump to label the prior statement as "bad advice" so quickly -
>you point out correctly that until an engine is up to operating temp it is
>in a state of, shall we say, "accelerated wear", where components aren't
>fitting together well and "miles and miles" are being "shaved off" the
>life of the engine. The way to minimize the effects of this is to get the
>vehicle through the warm-up period as quickly as possible under a light
>load. In order to accomplish this the auto manufacturers recommend waiting
>for a few seconds after starting for the oil pressure to come up fully and
>then driving off immediately using light throttle until the engine
How do you know the engine is fully lubed? By seeing the oil gauge swing
over to sixty pounds? Cold oil does not lube rings well. Since rings don't
receive a pressurized oil supply, cold oil never gets to the top ring, where
it's needed.
>temperature is in the normal operating range. They caution that to start
>an engine and let it warm up under idle conditions prolongs the warm-up
>period. During this time you have bad fitting parts rubbing together
>exacerbated by an over-rich fuel mixture washing the lubricant off the
>cylinder walls. This eventually leads to premature ring and/or piston
>failure.
So, let's put a cold engine under load with the choke on, and wash EVEN MORE
oil off the cylinder walls. Think how poorly it runs. Where does all that
gas go? Past the rings, into the oil pan. Oh yeah, that's real good for the
engine, and good for rings too. Also driveability and mileage suck!
I think what the auto manufacturers mean is, start the engine, let it idle
until the oil is hot. The oil gauge will tell you this when the pressure
decreases. Then it may be driven moderately. Be aware that your temp
gauge is reading the temperature of the COOLANT, which is the last thing to
reach operating temperature.
Chuck Tomlinson
TheCentralSc...@pobox.com wrote:
>In article <6248dn$i15$1...@bigdog.eli.net>, Enter Your Name Here wrote:
>>
>>oil off the cylinder walls. Think how poorly it runs. Where does all that
>>gas go? Past the rings, into the oil pan. Oh yeah, that's real good for the
>>engine, and good for rings too. Also driveability and mileage suck!
>
Apparently so (notice the comment about poor warm-up driveability).
--
Chuck ("warm it up on the move") Tomlinson
Nate B.
On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Bear wrote:
> If you we're coasting down a hill in neutral you have less control of your
> car due to engine breaking plus if you had to avoid an accident by speeding
> up it would take that much longer to speed up. It is not a common scenario
> but it does happen.
Can I just make this correction for everyone, not just this guy, who has
made this mistake seemingly hundreds of times in the recent past? It is
BRAKING, not breaking.
TheCentralSc...@pobox.com
In article <Pine.HPP.3.96.971017...@Nash.iupui.edu>, Nate B. wrote:
>On Fri, 17 Oct 1997, Bear wrote:
>
>> If you we're coasting down a hill in neutral you have less control of your
>> car due to engine breaking plus if you had to avoid an accident by speeding
>> up it would take that much longer to speed up. It is not a common scenario
>> but it does happen.
>
>Can I just make this correction for everyone, not just this guy, who has
>made this mistake seemingly hundreds of times in the recent past? It is
>BRAKING, not breaking.
unless you drive a ford. (is this thread dead yet? Does someone have to
bring up hitler and nazi's for it to finally die?)
Rocket
TheCentralSc...@pobox.com wrote:
Maybe the only way this thread will die is if the person who started it posts a final
reply. Therefore I will do it (yes it was me all the time :-! )
Thank you all for expressing the different opinions, I read every response and watched
this thread grow, and based on all the responses I read, I decided to follow the
manufacturer recomendations in the user's manual, that is, to warm up the engine for
about 30 seconds maximum, then drive away no matter how cold it is outside. This seams
to be the prefered opinion given by a lot of people.
Thank you all! stop it now :-)
Rocket
Don't reply any more to <yma...@fuse.net>
Bear
If you we're coasting down a hill in neutral you have less control of your
car due to engine breaking plus if you had to avoid an accident by speeding
up it would take that much longer to speed up. It is not a common scenario
but it does happen.
Enter Your Name Here
In article <6256fi$8...@sjx-ixn10.ix.netcom.com>, toml...@ix.netcom.com
says...
All vehicles receive a richer mixture at startup, which ignites easier. If
you don't have a carb and choke, then the fuel injection takes its place.
A little story for you. I own an 81 GMC pickup which recently received an
engine rebuild. The motor had approximately 317,000 miles on it. I always
warmed it up in the mornings, usually until the temp gauge began to move, and
the oil pressure dropped back to about 40 psi. If idling a motor is so
harmful to it, then why has my truck lasted so long? Further, my dad owns
a ranch. He is a staunch proponent of "warm it up before you drive it."
He still has a 55 Chevy flatbed with the original engine and untold miles on
it, a 62 dump, and a forklift well over 30 years old. None of these have
ever been rebuilt, yet see a lot of use. Do you still think warming up the
engine before driving it is bad?
Nate B.
On 21 Oct 1997, Patrick Austin wrote:
> Chris G. (ck...@osu.edu) wrote:
>
> : >> Again..."proper" warm up would be in the minutes range. It is never a good
> : >> idea to load the engine untill the metals have had time to properly expand. I
> : >> know that this senario is subjective...but I can guarentee, if you drive after
> : >> just "a few seconds", you are taking valuable life away from your engine.
>
> Sorry to post so long after the original, but in the manual for my porshe 944
> it specifically says you should NOT let the engine idle to warm up. Nor
> should you put it under a lot of load. It says to start driving immediately
> after starting, and drive very gently, to get the engine up to temp quickly.
> Seems to work, as the engine has 160K miles on it, and still will pull hard to
> the red line....
Just to add to the confusion, here is what I go by. Pretty much only
works if you have an oil temperature gauge.
Don't rev the engine above 4K until the oil temp hits 120 degrees F, don't
rev it above 5K until it hits 180 degrees F. I have also noticed that if
you start the car and let it idle to warm up, it could sit there all
freeking day and the oil will not get up to temperature. So, just drive
the sucker lightly until it is warm.
Ted Heron
On 21 Oct 1997, Enter Your Name Here wrote:
<snip>
>cars do. Putting a cold engine under load is not good for its
>longevity. See my previous post regarding engine warmup. I will keep
>treating my vehicle the way I always have treated it, and still be
>driving that same vehicle while you keep pouring money into a new
>vehicle to replace the one you wore out. And damn the manufacturers
>recommendations!
<snip>
You have a pretty convincing story and if I had had the same experience
that you have had I would just keep on doing exactly what I have always
been doing and I would be sending email to everyone that would take the
time to read it that they should let their engines get good and hot before
they even *think* about putting them in gear - but I've got a problem -
*my* dear old dad taught *me* to just drive right off just like it says in
the manual and I get good results from that. So there you have it - you're
trapped in your world and I'm trapped in mine...
Ted
email: he...@austx.tandem.com
Opinions I express here are my own and not my employer's.
Enter Your Name Here
In article <Pine.SUN.3.95.971016092820.1396A-100000@solitude>,
he...@austx.tandem.com says...
>
>>
>> So, let's put a cold engine under load with the choke on, and wash EVEN
MORE
>> oil off the cylinder walls. Think how poorly it runs. Where does all
that
>> gas go? Past the rings, into the oil pan. Oh yeah, that's real good for
the
>> engine, and good for rings too. Also driveability and mileage suck!
>>
>
>engine and accounts for such a great percentage of total wear - that's
>also why it is advantageous to minimize the time you spend in "warm-up"
>and why the manufacturers recommend driving the car to warm it up.
>
>If you are having driveability problems during warm-up then there is
>something wrong with your car and you may want to fix it.
>
The engine *had* 317,000 miles on it. I don't *suppose* the rings are worn,
do you? Also, my carburetor was calibrated for a *fresh* engine. A worn
engine pulls less vacuum, resulting in a richer fuel mixture. Combine this
with the choke, and yes the engine performs terribly when cold. But all