Aftermarket brake parts
Paul Hovnanian P.E.
The dealer wants $275 for a rear wheel kit. That's pretty pricey (I
think my factory Porsche pads are cheaper). Who makes (and who sells)
aftermarket parts of reasonable quality?
Some cars are pretty finiky about brake pads, some aren't (with respect
to wear, squealing, etc.). I'm not certain where Audi stands.
--
Paul Hovnanian mailto:Pa...@Hovnanian.com
------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Insert witty message here <<
Nate Nagel
> I'm helping a friend replace worn brake pads on an '02 Audi A6 wagon.
>
> The dealer wants $275 for a rear wheel kit. That's pretty pricey (I
> think my factory Porsche pads are cheaper). Who makes (and who sells)
> aftermarket parts of reasonable quality?
>
> Some cars are pretty finiky about brake pads, some aren't (with respect
> to wear, squealing, etc.). I'm not certain where Audi stands.
>
your best bet is to likely find a VW/Audi forum and ask there (maybe the
Vortex?) I'd like to recommend something, but I replace brakes so
infrequently that I'm about 5 years behind. I'm trying a set of the new
ceramic pads on my pickup now, but haven't got it back from the shop
yet. Porsche is still wearing the Metal Masters that were on it when I
bought it :/ I should really send off my spare calipers to be rebuilt
one of these days but brakes for me last pretty much forever (save in my
company cars, likely thanks to slushboxes with loose torque convertors)
"best" is subjective and varies from person to person anyway. The
factory pads are probably a good compromise for average street driving,
does your friend have a specific complaint with them? e.g. dusting,
fade, pad life, rotor life, noise, other? (I can tell you that Metal
Masters are sometimes noisy, which doesn't bother me, and the dust is
awful nasty stuff, which does.)
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
hls
"Paul Hovnanian P.E." <pa...@hovnanian.com> wrote in message
news:4B20261D...@hovnanian.com...
There are usually premium brake parts available from aftermarket
suppliers which meet or exceed OEM specs. And they are usually
a bit cheaper.
NAPA is usually a good place to start.
Audi is a car, just like a damn Malibu is.
Dont be automatically herded into the Audi dealership, I would counsel.
A lot of dealership parts cost 2-3 times as much as quality aftermarket,
and are not one bit better, if as good.
Nate Nagel
I bet the factory pads are either Mintex or Ferodo, but I could be
wrong. Buying those pads in a box that says Mintex instead of VW/Audi
may give you the same quality for less money. but like I said before
check an Audi specific forum for recommends.
Tegger
news:o5GdnYhkvZEhoL3W...@giganews.com:
>
> A lot of dealership parts cost 2-3 times as much as quality aftermarket,
> and are not one bit better, if as good.
>
Don't count Honda or Toyota in your list. OEM from either is WAY better
than anything the aftermarket supplies.
--
Tegger
hls
"Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
> Don't count Honda or Toyota in your list. OEM from either is WAY better
> than anything the aftermarket supplies.
>
>
> --
> Tegger
Prove it, Tegger ;>)
jfran
> "Tegger" <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
I am with tegger. Honda and Toyota OEM pads are the best. Akebono
would be second choice. Everything else is a wast of time.
jfran
>
> A lot of dealership parts cost 2-3 times as much as quality aftermarket,
> and are not one bit better, if as good.
This is completely wrong.
hls
"jfran" <jfran...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:d0551fcf-4c5e-4174...@j4g2000yqe.googlegroups.com...
>
>>
>> A lot of dealership parts cost 2-3 times as much as quality aftermarket,
>> and are not one bit better, if as good.
>
> This is completely wrong.
No, it isnt. Your saying that is it has no relation to anything.
I am speaking broadly, but I have bought aftermarket parts for GM which
bear the SAME number as the GM parts, at .25-.33 the cost.
So be a bit more specific.
WTF do you think most manufacturers buy their parts...they dont make them,
generally.
They specify and buy from suppliers which are, coincidentally,in the
aftermarket.
There may be exceptions, but there is a lot of money wasted on dealership
parts which
is money pissed away.
jfran
> "jfran" <jfrancis...@gmail.com> wrote in message
as for GM, the OE brown box pads are a completely different compound
than the delco durastop pad. will it work, yes. but it is not the
same. If you want quality, buy OE
jfran
as for GM, the brown box OE pads are not the same as the delco
durastop. The compound is completely different. Will it work, yes. The
OE pad is a better
pad in my opinion and worth the extra money. I know the the suppliers
are the same, but the pad is different.
hls
***********
There are many pad compositions to choose from, from various aftermarket
suppliers. You can find materials, IMO, which are as good as or better than
OEM
in the after market. You wont do it at certain FLAPS, but you CAN find them
and
they will normally be much cheaper than at the dealership.
ben91932
> I'm helping a friend replace worn brake pads on an '02 Audi A6 wagon.
>
> The dealer wants $275 for a rear wheel kit.
These guys want less than $80
http://catalog.worldpac.com/ibusiness/JSP.v.1.01/quote.jsp?header=http://egermanparts.com/header.txt&footer=http://egermanparts.com/footer.txt&partner=ipb&year=2002&product=N1010-87622&application=000485750&clientid=eger
manparts.com&cookieid=2TA1E6B5X2TA1E6B5W&baseurl=http://
egermanparts.com/
I dont know them, but if a 1 minute google search pulls this it proves
you have choices..
HTH
Ben
Tegger
news:xdidnaA8XMlW1b3W...@giganews.com:
>
> "Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
>>
>> Don't count Honda or Toyota in your list. OEM from either is WAY better
>> than anything the aftermarket supplies.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> Prove it, Tegger ;>)
Prove otherwise, hls. <insert return smiley here>
Unfortunately, neither of us can prove anything one way or another on a
Usenet forum.
Much of my Toyota and Honda car-owning life I used aftermarket pads. After
suffering numerous constant problems such as rust, vibration, soft pedal
feel, blued rotors, pad friction material that didn't quite match rotor
friction surface, and pads so thick the anti-squeal shims could not be
used, I tried OEM and have not gone back to aftermarket since. That was
about 12-14 years ago.
--
Tegger
hls
"Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
> Usenet forum.
And that was my point.
Heron McKeister
> "hls" <h...@nospam.nix> wrote in
> news:xdidnaA8XMlW1b3W...@giganews.com:
>
> >
> > "Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
> >>
> >> Don't count Honda or Toyota in your list. OEM from either is WAY better
> >> than anything the aftermarket supplies.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Prove it, Tegger ;>)
>
>
>
>
> Prove otherwise, hls. <insert return smiley here>
>
> Unfortunately, neither of us can prove anything one way or another on a
> Usenet forum.
Pure and simple sophistry.
> Much of my Toyota and Honda car-owning life I used aftermarket pads. After
> suffering numerous constant problems such as rust, vibration, soft pedal
> feel, blued rotors, pad friction material that didn't quite match rotor
> friction surface, and pads so thick the anti-squeal shims could not be
> used, I tried OEM and have not gone back to aftermarket since. That was
> about 12-14 years ago.
I see. So your dated, generalized, limited experience
constitutes and justifies an all sweeping statement that
"OEM ... is WAY better than ANYTHING (my caps
for emphasis) the aftermarket supplies" I again direct
you to my above characterization.
jim
I would have to agree. I have seen examples where the original factory
brakes lasted half as long as the after market products that replaced
them. And of course there are after market products that can last half
as long as the OEM. Sweeping generalizations about one or the other
category are not likely to be correct. The thing about brake pads is
that about 25 years ago asbestos was eliminated from them. Prior to that
there was very little debate about who made the best pads.
-jim
hls
"jim" <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net> wrote in message
> I would have to agree. I have seen examples where the original factory
> brakes lasted half as long as the after market products that replaced
> them. And of course there are after market products that can last half
> as long as the OEM. Sweeping generalizations about one or the other
> category are not likely to be correct. The thing about brake pads is
> that about 25 years ago asbestos was eliminated from them. Prior to that
> there was very little debate about who made the best pads.
>
> -jim
One of the issues is who really "makes" the pads. I am sure there are
good manufacturers and less good ones, and I suspect that the auto
manufacturers sub their needs out to these people.
If you could be sure that the aftermarket pad you are buying is exactly
the same as or somewhat better than the OEM (letting oranges roughly
be equal to oranges), then I believe you will find the dealership prices
are substantially higher than the aftermarket suppliers. Maybe 3-4 times
higher, at times.
Don Byrer
<pa...@hovnanian.com> wrote:
>I'm helping a friend replace worn brake pads on an '02 Audi A6 wagon.
>
>The dealer wants $275 for a rear wheel kit. That's pretty pricey (I
>think my factory Porsche pads are cheaper). Who makes (and who sells)
>aftermarket parts of reasonable quality?
>
>Some cars are pretty finiky about brake pads, some aren't (with respect
>to wear, squealing, etc.). I'm not certain where Audi stands.
What's in the "rear wheel kit"? Just Pads? or also discs? That
makes a big difference! $275 for pads only is way too much...sounds
like they quoted you retail...The "go away and don't bother me" price.
What engine/model A6? FWD or Quattro?...it may make a difference too.
Anyway...Check out www.ecstuning.com
They carry OEM parts as well as quality aftermarket parts...some of
which are the OEM suppliers for VW/Audi.
Looks like under $150 for decent pads AND discs shipped...
If you aren't sure what pads you want, call 'em for advice.
Not affiliated, just a very satisfied customer.
--Don
Don Byrer KJ5KB
Power & Glider Pilot Guy
kj5kb-at-hotmail.com
"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without bending the gear..."
"Watch out for those doves...<smack-smack-smack-smack...>"
Tegger
news:d5Wdnch2ztNrgbzW...@giganews.com:
>
> If you could be sure that the aftermarket pad you are buying is exactly
> the same as or somewhat better than the OEM (letting oranges roughly
> be equal to oranges), then I believe you will find the dealership prices
> are substantially higher than the aftermarket suppliers.
I agree. But the problem is finding aftermarket that is, in fact, exactly
like OEM. There's so much out there, and so much that isn't much good.
Personally, regarding Honda and Toyota only (as I originally limited my
reply), I have not seen any aftermarket brake pads that equalled OEM for
all-round performance.
--
Tegger
Scott Dorsey
No, it's true.
Mind you, it's ALSO true that a lot of them are substantially better than
aftermarket parts.
And it's also true that some of the aftermarket parts are very, very bad.
But I can buy a Brembo kit from the BMW dealer, or I can buy a Brembo
kit from Bavarian Motorsport, and the price difference is substantial
for the same part made to the same specs.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Tegger
news:us6Um.55009$X01....@newsfe07.iad:
> "Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
> news:Xns9CDD50C...@208.90.168.18...
>>
>> Unfortunately, neither of us can prove anything one way or another on
>> a Usenet forum.
>
> Pure and simple sophistry.
You contend that my statement is a false argument?
I'd like to see how /you/ might be able to "prove", in text alone, in a
Usenet message, that one kind of brake pad is better or worse than another.
>
>> Much of my Toyota and Honda car-owning life I used aftermarket pads.
>> After suffering numerous constant problems such as rust, vibration,
>> soft pedal feel, blued rotors, pad friction material that didn't
>> quite match rotor friction surface, and pads so thick the anti-squeal
>> shims could not be used, I tried OEM and have not gone back to
>> aftermarket since. That was about 12-14 years ago.
>
> I see. So your dated, generalized, limited experience
Dated as far as /my/ cars go. Not as far as what I see on other people's
cars. What I see there has not changed my mind.
And it's not only aftermarket pads. I see aftermarket rotors that fit badly
and are poorly-made, as well.
> constitutes and justifies an all sweeping statement that
> "OEM ... is WAY better than ANYTHING (my caps
> for emphasis) the aftermarket supplies" I again direct
> you to my above characterization.
>
And I direct you to my original limiting statement, where I said, "Honda or
Toyota". You completely changed the meaning of my statement when you
replaced that reference with an ellipsis in your quote.
I have very limited experience with other makes and cannot comment on the
difference between OEM and aftermarket for those. And so I did not try.
--
Tegger
Tegger
> I have seen examples where the original factory
> brakes lasted half as long as the after market products that replaced
> them. And of course there are after market products that can last half
> as long as the OEM.
That a brake pad lasts longer than OEM does not mean it's better than OEM.
Pad life is just one factor in brake performance.
The last set of aftermarket brake pads I personally used were Raybestos
"long life". They were so hard they actually blued-up my rotors. This was
accompanied by long pedal travel: I had to step harder on the pedal to get
them to bite. That was the last straw for me.
--
Tegger
hls
"Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
> badly
> and are poorly-made, as well.
I appreciate your point, Teg. Most of us have some preferences that we
might not be able to prove are better, but we have learned over time that
if we use these certain items we have few or no problems. And I have
no problem with that.
I point to the very polarized feelings about motor oil brands and types,
and the oil filters for these engines. We use what works for us.
What I think I have learned is that you dont buy some offbrand cheapo
part, normally. We are looking for quality at a good price, or at least
at a reasonable price.
Most of us dont mind paying for quality, but we hate to pay the high
costs and still get junk...
Heron McKeister
> "Heron McKeister" <n...@home.com> wrote in
> news:us6Um.55009$X01....@newsfe07.iad:
>
> > "Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
> > news:Xns9CDD50C...@208.90.168.18...
>
> >>
> >> Unfortunately, neither of us can prove anything one way or another on
> >> a Usenet forum.
> >
> > Pure and simple sophistry.
>
> You contend that my statement is a false argument?
>
> I'd like to see how /you/ might be able to "prove", in text alone, in a
> Usenet message, that one kind of brake pad is better or worse than
another.
Any such proof would require nothing more than URLs
which are of course simply text. Do your own homework
> >> Much of my Toyota and Honda car-owning life I used aftermarket pads.
> >> After suffering numerous constant problems such as rust, vibration,
> >> soft pedal feel, blued rotors, pad friction material that didn't
> >> quite match rotor friction surface, and pads so thick the anti-squeal
> >> shims could not be used, I tried OEM and have not gone back to
> >> aftermarket since. That was about 12-14 years ago.
> >
> > I see. So your dated, generalized, limited experience
>
> Dated as far as /my/ cars go. Not as far as what I see on other people's
> cars. What I see there has not changed my mind.
>
> And it's not only aftermarket pads. I see aftermarket rotors that fit
badly
> and are poorly-made, as well.
Again, from this and some of your other posts, your
experience is clearly and quite obviously limited.
> > constitutes and justifies an all sweeping statement that
> > "OEM ... is WAY better than ANYTHING (my caps
> > for emphasis) the aftermarket supplies" I again direct
> > you to my above characterization.
> >
>
> And I direct you to my original limiting statement, where I said, "Honda
or
> Toyota". You completely changed the meaning of my statement when you
> replaced that reference with an ellipsis in your quote.
Not at all, for the sake of simplicity I demonstrated
the conspicuous ridiculousness of your argument
> I have very limited experience with other makes and cannot comment on the
> difference between OEM and aftermarket for those. And so I did not try.
Does your "experience" cover each and every single
year, model and configuration of all Toyotas and
Hondas ever produced? I somehow thought not.
Heron McKeister
> jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net> wrote in
> news:u4qdnZL8vs12nrzW...@bright.net:
>
>
> > I have seen examples where the original factory
> > brakes lasted half as long as the after market products that replaced
> > them. And of course there are after market products that can last half
> > as long as the OEM.
>
>
> That a brake pad lasts longer than OEM does not mean it's better than OEM.
> Pad life is just one factor in brake performance.
Better? Performance? In what respect? Simply more
absurdities. Which is the best car, guitar, PC ...? For what
intended purpose or application, and what are the criteria?
> The last set of aftermarket brake pads I personally used were Raybestos
> "long life". They were so hard they actually blued-up my rotors. This was
> accompanied by long pedal travel: I had to step harder on the pedal to get
> them to bite. That was the last straw for me.
They were harder and required more force? You're
really none too bright, are you? Either that or you
desire and expect that your intended audience isn't.
> --
> Tegger
hls
"Heron McKeister" <n...@home.com> wrote in message news:o9eUm.2065
>
> Does your "experience" cover each and every single
> year, model and configuration of all Toyotas and
> Hondas ever produced? I somehow thought not.
>
friction materials,
etc, that eliminate the guess work.
SAE J1652 is for evaluating friction materials on front disc brakes. SAE
J2430 is a test procedure for testing linings on the front and rear brakes
together.
And there are others but ALL manufacturers, IIUC, have these tests run on
their
materials, and it makes it a bit less challenging to pick the right material
.
I further understand that there is a lot to be learned from edge codes on
the pad
material. Not my forte.
Just scanning the literature, it would seem that modern ceramic linings are
the better
choice in most cases. They take the heat, are durable, are not unusually
hard on the
rotor disc, and have excellent friction coefficients under most conditions.
Metallics,
organics, etc generally are less broad in their applicability.
What I have read supports, to me at any rate, that automakers specify, and
let
any number of manufacturers make these parts. There are high quality
American
manufacturers of brake parts, but large numbers are also being manufactured
in India and China.
Enough of this for now.
Tegger
> "Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
> news:Xns9CDD9328...@208.90.168.18...
>> jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net> wrote in
>> news:u4qdnZL8vs12nrzW...@bright.net:
>>
>>
>> > I have seen examples where the original factory
>> > brakes lasted half as long as the after market products that
>> > replaced them. And of course there are after market products that
>> > can last half as long as the OEM.
>>
>>
>> That a brake pad lasts longer than OEM does not mean it's better than
>> OEM. Pad life is just one factor in brake performance.
>
> Better? Performance? In what respect? Simply more
> absurdities. Which is the best car, guitar, PC ...? For what
> intended purpose or application, and what are the criteria?
Automakers attempt to make a brake pad that will work well in all
regular-use road-going driving situations. This means adequate friction,
adequate smoothness, low noise, resistance to fade, low corrosion,
acceptable wear characteristics, etc. This also means a fair amount of
compromise, but it also means that the resulting pad will work quite
well for the vast bulk of the ordinary driving public.
The automaker has quite a lot more money to spend than the aftermarket
in development, since they can amortize the expenditures over a
production span that can encompass more than a million vehicle sales
plus years of after-sales servicing. Also, the automaker has to contend
with new-car warranties that can be three years or more.
The aftermarket operates on a somewhat smaller scale and has a somewhat
smaller amount of cash with which to develop its products. Plus they
still have to make a margin on what they sell while selling it at a
price well below that of OEM.
Obviously, OEM road-going pads won't suffice if you're a racer. Nor will
they do if all you care about is longevity and nothing else. In those
cases, aftermarket is all you've got.
>
>> The last set of aftermarket brake pads I personally used were
>> Raybestos "long life". They were so hard they actually blued-up my
>> rotors. This was accompanied by long pedal travel: I had to step
>> harder on the pedal to get them to bite. That was the last straw for
>> me.
>
> They were harder and required more force? You're
> really none too bright, are you?
Guess not.
I have a question for you. Which has more frictional resistance against
paper:
1) An eraser, or
2) a coin?
Bonus question: Which is the harder of the two?
> Either that or you
> desire and expect that your intended audience isn't.
>
I desire and expect that my intended audience consists entirely of
people just like you. :^)
--
Tegger
hls
"Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
> in development, since they can amortize the expenditures over a
> production span that can encompass more than a million vehicle sales
> plus years of after-sales servicing. Also, the automaker has to contend
> with new-car warranties that can be three years or more.
I beg to differ. The automaker really doesnt enter into this phase. They
do NOT make brake parts. Brake part manufacturers cobble up parts
for the entire industry.
Automakers SPECIFY, IIUC.
Tegger
news:suKdnaG1grhpxrzW...@giganews.com:
>
> "Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
>> And it's not only aftermarket pads. I see aftermarket rotors that fit
>> badly and are poorly-made, as well.
>
> I appreciate your point, Teg. Most of us have some preferences that we
> might not be able to prove are better, but we have learned over time that
> if we use these certain items we have few or no problems. And I have
> no problem with that.
>
> I point to the very polarized feelings about motor oil brands and types,
> and the oil filters for these engines. We use what works for us.
And I tend to trust the automaker (in my case Honda and Toyota), to whom I
have given tens of thousands of dollars on the trust in the quality of
their work.
I think it's reasonable to assume that if I should trust an automaker's
quality enough to buy their entire product in the first place, I should
generally also trust them enough to follow their path in maintenance and
repair of the parts of their product.
Those who buy other automakers' work may not have the same level of trust
in their automaker as I do. But even Honda and Toyota have a few serious
holes in their quality network, so I guess judiciousness is a universal
requirement.
>
> What I think I have learned is that you dont buy some offbrand cheapo
> part, normally. We are looking for quality at a good price, or at least
> at a reasonable price.
Agreed, absolutely. If I thought I wasn't getting value for my money, I
would not make the purchase. And indeed, when faced with that situation,
I have not.
>
> Most of us dont mind paying for quality, but we hate to pay the high
> costs and still get junk...
>
Well, maybe not always actually /junk/, but nothing that you wouldn't get
for a third the price in the aftermarket.
Honda radiators and windshields are a perfect example. OEM for both are
often three times the price of aftermarket, but aftermarket quality is
usually at least as good, if not better, than what Honda originally sold.
I currently have a Visteon radiator in my Honda. Visteon was a part of Ford
at the time I bought the rad.
--
Tegger
Tegger
news:K4WdneiAiJjPDbzW...@giganews.com:
Well, yeah, but that specification makes /ALL/ the difference in the world.
Auomakers do their own initial development, then they call in the OEM to
finalize development of the part. The OEM may suggest changes to improve
functionality or reduce cost, but the final call is that of the automaker.
Sometimes the OEM has something already existing that would do just fine
with a bit of tweaking to meet the regs. But ultimately, the part MUST meet
automaker specs or it's no-go.
Oil filters are a good example. FRAM has been a Honda OEM supplier for oil
filters for, I don't know how long, 20 years?
But FRAM makes their OEM Honda filters to Honda's very particular and
precise specifications. Honda does not just tell FRAM to paint the can blue
instead of orange and leave the rest alone.
I used to work extensively with Tier-1 and Tier-2 suppliers. These
universally told me that the Japs were far stricter than the domestics in
what they would accept. Plus the Japs were much more likely to try and help
you, and work with you, to get stuff done properly rather than just
scolding you then carrying on as usual, except for cutting 5% off the next
invoice. This is part of the reason I prefer the Japs to the domestics.
--
Tegger
Vic Smith
wrote:
>
>I used to work extensively with Tier-1 and Tier-2 suppliers. These
>universally told me that the Japs were far stricter than the domestics in
>what they would accept. Plus the Japs were much more likely to try and help
>you, and work with you, to get stuff done properly rather than just
>scolding you then carrying on as usual, except for cutting 5% off the next
>invoice. This is part of the reason I prefer the Japs to the domestics.
Whatever works. Word usually gets out about what parts are best.
Recently used an aftermarket plenum on a 3800, but went with GM
LIM gasket. Big price difference on both, but both were the best part
to use in terms of quality. For all I know Dorman supplies GM with
plenums. Only GM had the best gasket.
What was that deal with Honda brake or PS fluid?
That was a weird one.
As I recall the Hondaheads would only use the Honda brand,
and it might have been required to keep the warranty.
Might be wrong, but that's my recollection.
--Vic
Kruse
> I'm helping a friend replace worn brake pads on an '02 Audi A6 wagon.
>
> The dealer wants $275 for a rear wheel kit. That's pretty pricey (I
> think my factory Porsche pads are cheaper). Who makes (and who sells)
> aftermarket parts of reasonable quality?
This place is like a sandbox filled with kids. Hopefully, there's room
for one more.
I'm not going to recommend a certain brand. But for everybody that
says
"The replacement pads/shoes only lasted half as long as the original
ones", remember
that the replacements have to wear into the irregularities that are in
the old drum/rotor.
By the time the replacements pads/shoes take the shape of the drum/
rotor, 25% of the friction material is gone.
You will probably have the same results if you replaced the originals
with OEM.
While there are some crappy aftermarket Chinese-quality parts out
there, the manufacturers (usually) don't make
their own brake assemblies. However, a lot of people will continue to
drink the Kool-Aid.
jim
Tegger wrote:
> Oil filters are a good example. FRAM has been a Honda OEM supplier for oil
> filters for, I don't know how long, 20 years?
> But FRAM makes their OEM Honda filters to Honda's very particular and
> precise specifications. Honda does not just tell FRAM to paint the can blue
> instead of orange and leave the rest alone.
>
Do you have evidence of this? My informal survey of Internet folklore tells a
different tale. According to accounts I have read from the people who are
cutting open filters and publishing the results on the internet the
Honda/Honeywell filter has the same construction as the equivalent Fram filter.
Same cardboard endcaps. Same filter media. Same ADBV. Same everything except the
paint on the outside.
But what do those guys know...
hls
"Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:db63i5t0v665ingo3...@4ax.com...
How do you know GM had the best gasket? They DIDNT. The aftermarket
companies came out with gaskets that worked while GM farted and fumed.
GM outsources those shitty plenums and the gaskets that were originally used
to mount them. So, for years, if you had to replace a GM plenum or gasket,
you did it with substandard parts.
Vic Smith
I did the job ("supervised" my son) on a non-failed '95 Bonneville
with the original gaskets.
They didn't look good, but they were still holding.
Felpro made a "maybe better than original" LIM gasket a couple years
after the OEM gaskets started failing. There's still some question
about Dexcool eating the original plastic. I don't care about that.
The new Felpros were still plastic clad, and still are.
In early 2006 GM came out with the aluminum clad gasket.
Nobody else has it. Just GM. That's what I used.
Every mech who did a lot of these and isn't out of the loop said to
use the GM aluminum clad gasket.
There's a pretty big base of 3800 owners/mechs/fans on forums,
especially the Bonneville forum, which is where I got my info.
Go argue with them.
>GM outsources those shitty plenums and the gaskets that were originally used
>to mount them. So, for years, if you had to replace a GM plenum or gasket,
>you did it with substandard parts.
>
I don't care about your GM problems.
I did my manifold work in 2009 on a '95 Bonneville, using 2009
information. And I haven't had the GM problems you've had.
Not to say I recommend GM to anybody. But it works for me.
--Vic
Tegger
news:C7qdnSupnJz8P7zW...@bright.net:
>
>
> Tegger wrote:
>
>> Oil filters are a good example. FRAM has been a Honda OEM supplier
>> for oil filters for, I don't know how long, 20 years?
>> But FRAM makes their OEM Honda filters to Honda's very particular and
>> precise specifications. Honda does not just tell FRAM to paint the
>> can blue instead of orange and leave the rest alone.
>>
>
> Do you have evidence of this? My informal survey of Internet folklore
> tells a different tale.
And a "tale" it is.
> According to accounts I have read from the
> people who are cutting open filters and publishing the results on the
> internet the Honda/Honeywell filter has the same construction as the
> equivalent Fram filter. Same cardboard endcaps. Same filter media.
> Same ADBV. Same everything except the paint on the outside.
>
> But what do those guys know...
Visual inspection means zero. They only know what they /see/ when they cut
one apart. They have no idea how it FUNCTIONS.
Honda OEM filters use standard FRAM silicone ADBV's (the orange ones).
Honda OEM filters use the same FRAM relief valves. Honda OEM filters also
use the same "cardboard" (they're not "cardboard") end caps. Honda bills
itself as an engine company, and takes engines pretty seriously. And
they're OK with what they buy from FRAM.
It's also entirely possible Honda has tighter tolerances than FRAM has for
its own products. Same parts, but higher performance standards and a higher
reject rate.
Of course, /nobody/ has /any/ idea about the filter media itself beyond
what it looks like. The media is the crux of the matter, the heart of the
filter. I have personally noted that OEM Honda filters and aftermarket
FRAMs behave very differently when observed after removal during an oil
change.
--
Tegger
jim
Tegger wrote:
>
> jim <".sjedgingN0sp"@m...@mwt.net> wrote in
> news:C7qdnSupnJz8P7zW...@bright.net:
>
> >
> >
> > Tegger wrote:
> >
> >> Oil filters are a good example. FRAM has been a Honda OEM supplier
> >> for oil filters for, I don't know how long, 20 years?
> >> But FRAM makes their OEM Honda filters to Honda's very particular and
> >> precise specifications. Honda does not just tell FRAM to paint the
> >> can blue instead of orange and leave the rest alone.
> >>
> >
> > Do you have evidence of this? My informal survey of Internet folklore
> > tells a different tale.
>
> And a "tale" it is.
>
> > According to accounts I have read from the
> > people who are cutting open filters and publishing the results on the
> > internet the Honda/Honeywell filter has the same construction as the
> > equivalent Fram filter. Same cardboard endcaps. Same filter media.
> > Same ADBV. Same everything except the paint on the outside.
> >
> > But what do those guys know...
>
> Visual inspection means zero. They only know what they /see/ when they cut
> one apart. They have no idea how it FUNCTIONS.
You don't say? That sounds like blasphemy.
>
> Honda OEM filters use standard FRAM silicone ADBV's (the orange ones).
> Honda OEM filters use the same FRAM relief valves. Honda OEM filters also
> use the same "cardboard" (they're not "cardboard") end caps.
In a Honda filter the end caps are not cardboard but a quality fiber. In a Fram
they are cardboard from an old box that some bum was living in.
>Honda bills
> itself as an engine company, and takes engines pretty seriously. And
> they're OK with what they buy from FRAM.
me too.
>
> It's also entirely possible Honda has tighter tolerances than FRAM has for
> its own products. Same parts, but higher performance standards and a higher
> reject rate.
>
> Of course, /nobody/ has /any/ idea about the filter media itself beyond
> what it looks like.
What about the Labs that do tests to evaluate filter efficiency?
> The media is the crux of the matter, the heart of the
> filter. I have personally noted that OEM Honda filters and aftermarket
> FRAMs behave very differently when observed after removal during an oil
> change.
behave differently when observed???? Is that like Schr�dinger's cat? What
behavior did you observe.
-jim
>
> --
> Tegger
Tegger
>
>
> Tegger wrote:
>>
>> Of course, /nobody/ has /any/ idea about the filter media itself
>> beyond what it looks like.
>
> What about the Labs that do tests to evaluate filter efficiency?
Are the results of those tests freely available on the Internet, maybe even
on the same sites that cut filters open to see what they look like inside?
>
>
>
>
>> The media is the crux of the matter, the heart of the
>> filter. I have personally noted that OEM Honda filters and
>> aftermarket FRAMs behave very differently when observed after removal
>> during an oil change.
>
> behave differently when observed???? Is that like Schr�dinger's cat?
> What behavior did you observe.
>
When removed from the engine and held open-end up, aftermarket filters tend
to continue to fill the center pipe from the "dirty" side. With OEM Honda
and Toyota filters the center pipe remains dry under the same test (nothing
leaks through from the "dirty" side).
--
Tegger
N8N
There are people who don't have their rotors resurfaced when they
replace pads? (unless, of course, visual inspection shows them to be
darn near perfect - but even so I'd still probably have them done just
for insurance)
Oh, wait, that's (one reason) why I just redid the brakes on my
pickemup truck... couldn't stand the warpage
FWIW I've put maybe 30 miles on it since getting it back together - I
know, not enough to even break in the pads - and the Raybestos ceramic
pads seem to stop well and are dead quiet. WAAAAY too soon to
evaluate dusting or wear. Also probably of little help to the OP with
his Audi...
nate
hls
"Vic Smith" <thismaila...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> I did the job ("supervised" my son) on a non-failed '95 Bonneville
> with the original gaskets.
> They didn't look good, but they were still holding.
> Felpro made a "maybe better than original" LIM gasket a couple years
> after the OEM gaskets started failing. There's still some question
> about Dexcool eating the original plastic.
I have seen those original gaskets on teardowns too. Echo your observations
>>GM outsources those shitty plenums and the gaskets that were originally
>>used
>>to mount them. So, for years, if you had to replace a GM plenum or
>>gasket,
>>you did it with substandard parts.
> I don't care about your GM problems.
> I did my manifold work in 2009 on a '95 Bonneville, using 2009
> information. And I haven't had the GM problems you've had.
> Not to say I recommend GM to anybody. But it works for me.
>
Ate a snake for breakfast, huh, Vic?
Yes, there are better parts now, and from GM. When a lot of there failures
started occuring, the choice was OEM plenums and gaskets, or a couple
of choices of aftermarket fixes.
I dont think the DexCool ate the gaskets necessarily. DexCool wasnt much of
a
product, IMO, but there was considerable evidence that the gaskets
themselves (and in some cases the mating surface design) made this
a problem.
I dont know who makes the newer gaskets for GM....I rather doubt they
do it themselves.
jim
Tegger wrote:
>
> jim <".sjedgingN0sp"@m...@mwt.net> wrote in
> news:MoidnXoFt5MMJbzW...@bright.net:
>
> >
> >
> > Tegger wrote:
>
> >>
> >> Of course, /nobody/ has /any/ idea about the filter media itself
> >> beyond what it looks like.
> >
> > What about the Labs that do tests to evaluate filter efficiency?
>
> Are the results of those tests freely available on the Internet,
Some data is available, but in general no you won't likely get your
hands on the most current comprehensive test results. The labs are not
exactly non-profit organizations. and it is not like looking at the
results would change the nature of the debate anyway. Looking at the
test results may start more arguments than they settle. If a filter has
an absolute rating of 40 microns (meaning no particle smaller than that
will ever get thru) then some people will say that is good. Others will
say that is bad because it indicates the filter is too flow restrictive.
Ultimately it is the job of the engine manufacturer to provide the
precise test result specifications for the filter so that no harm will
come to their engine.
There are some things you can count on. You can be sure that if someone
like Honda was shopping around for someone to build their filters for
them that plenty of test results were made available to Honda.
Another thing you can be sure of is if you had the test results for all
the filters, the OEM brand filter would always come out at the bottom
for any of given test comparison. That is the way it works by
definition. None of the other filters are ever going to test lower than
the OEM. For instance, If an OEM filter is designed to hold 300 psi
pressure the manufacturer is not going to spec the filter for 200 psi.
Even if they believe 200 psi is sufficient they are not going to see any
reason to make it easy on their competitors by letting them build their
version of the filter to a lower standard than they do.
If you are interested in filter media testing this I believe is the
most recent ISO test procedure:
http://www.iso.org/iso/iso_catalogue/catalogue_ics/catalogue_detail_ics.htm?csnumber=44870
Any filter that has been around for a long time will have
specifications that refer to other older test procedures.
There are probably 50-100 spin on oil filter manufacturers in the US.
Some of the smaller companies do publish the test results for their own
filters.
Brake pads are a completely different thing than oil filters. Brake
pads are usually not a warranty item. So if you replace the Audi brakes
with some other and the car runs into a tree as a result Audi doesn't
give a hoot.
>maybe even
> on the same sites that cut filters open to see what they look like inside?
>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >> The media is the crux of the matter, the heart of the
> >> filter. I have personally noted that OEM Honda filters and
> >> aftermarket FRAMs behave very differently when observed after removal
> >> during an oil change.
> >
> > behave differently when observed???? Is that like Schr�dinger's cat?
> > What behavior did you observe.
> >
>
> When removed from the engine and held open-end up, aftermarket filters tend
> to continue to fill the center pipe from the "dirty" side. With OEM Honda
> and Toyota filters the center pipe remains dry under the same test (nothing
> leaks through from the "dirty" side).
That is a very interesting observation. I wonder what exactly you
think that test demonstrates? That sounds to me like an observation that
is ripe for whole multitude of conflicting superstitions. Isn't the oil
supposed to flow from the dirty side to the center hole through the
media? You seem to be implying that a filter that is having trouble
doing what a filter is supposed to do is the better filter. I do not
doubt that there are significant difference in the flow characteristics
of different filters especially when you have different amounts of
"dirt" in the oil and in the filter media, but i'm not sure what you are
saying the results of that particular flow test means.
I'm also curious why you specify that the filter must be "held
open-end up" for this test. Does it drain differently through the filter
media from the outside to the inside when facing up instead of facing
down?
-jim
>
> --
> Tegger
Tegger
>
>
> Tegger wrote:
>>
>>
>> When removed from the engine and held open-end up, aftermarket
>> filters tend to continue to fill the center pipe from the "dirty"
>> side. With OEM Honda and Toyota filters the center pipe remains dry
>> under the same test (nothing leaks through from the "dirty" side).
>
> That is a very interesting observation. I wonder what exactly
> you think that test demonstrates?
That there is an observable difference between Honda/Toyota OEM filter
media and aftermarket media for the same cars.
If the "dirty" side doesn't leak into the center pipe, this would mean
that the filter will remain more full after shutdown than it would
otherwise. That's a good thing.
> That sounds to me like an observation
> that is ripe for whole multitude of conflicting superstitions. Isn't
> the oil supposed to flow from the dirty side to the center hole
> through the media?
Yes.
> You seem to be implying that a filter that is
> having trouble doing what a filter is supposed to do is the better
> filter.
I merely say that filter media that is guaranteed to meet OEM specs
(being sold through authorized OEM outlets) behaves differently from
that which is not sold through authorized OEM channels.
My assumption, therefore, is that the behavior of the OEM media is the
behavior preferred by the automaker.
I forgot to say that also discovered that if I use a small tool to push
the ADBV open on the OEM filters (breaking the seal), suddenly the
center pipe begins to fill up from the dirty side, just like
aftermarket. So maybe it's also the ADBV and not just the media which
makes the difference. I don't know.
> I do not doubt that there are significant difference in the
> flow characteristics of different filters especially when you have
> different amounts of "dirt" in the oil and in the filter media, but
> i'm not sure what you are saying the results of that particular flow
> test means.
If the "dirty" side doesn't leak into the center pipe, this would mean
that the filter will remain more full after shutdown than it would
otherwise. This means slightly quicker oil-pressure build on startup.
> I'm also curious why you specify that the filter must be "held
> open-end up" for this test. Does it drain differently through the
> filter media from the outside to the inside when facing up instead of
> facing down?
>
Because it's easier to see inside if you hold it open-end up; you can
watch the center pipe slowly fill. Or not fill, as the case may be.
Hold it upside down and watch the oil dribble out instead, if you
prefer.
--
Tegger
jim
Tegger wrote:
>
> jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net> wrote in
> news:Fv6dnYF8-L2J8r_W...@bright.net:
>
> >
> >
> > Tegger wrote:
> >>
>
> >>
> >> When removed from the engine and held open-end up, aftermarket
> >> filters tend to continue to fill the center pipe from the "dirty"
> >> side. With OEM Honda and Toyota filters the center pipe remains dry
> >> under the same test (nothing leaks through from the "dirty" side).
> >
> > That is a very interesting observation. I wonder what exactly
> > you think that test demonstrates?
>
> That there is an observable difference between Honda/Toyota OEM filter
> media and aftermarket media for the same cars.
Well maybe. How many observations are we talking about here? one? two?
50? Are these observations on the same vehicles using the same
conditions for both OEM and other filters? How many other filters were
tried?
>
> If the "dirty" side doesn't leak into the center pipe, this would mean
> that the filter will remain more full after shutdown than it would
> otherwise. That's a good thing.
You are talking about oil flowing in the direction it is designed to
flow. there is a valve that prevents it from flowing in the opposite
direction, but there isn't supposed to be anything preventing it to flow
in this direction. There is no reason to believe what you are observing
says anything at all about how it behaves when it sits attached to the
engine.
>
> > That sounds to me like an observation
> > that is ripe for whole multitude of conflicting superstitions. Isn't
> > the oil supposed to flow from the dirty side to the center hole
> > through the media?
>
> Yes.
So what is it you think is preventing it from flowing thru the media in
your test?
>
> > You seem to be implying that a filter that is
> > having trouble doing what a filter is supposed to do is the better
> > filter.
>
> I merely say that filter media that is guaranteed to meet OEM specs
> (being sold through authorized OEM outlets) behaves differently from
> that which is not sold through authorized OEM channels.
Well you observed what happens when the filter media is dirty and when
the oil is dirty. How about when the oil and filter are clean? Or how
about when it is just a little dirty?
I'm willing to agree that your observation might be an indication that
the OEM filter is more aggressive at removing dirt from the oil. The
filter with the most dirt is likely to resist flow the most. But we
don't know if that means its a better filter or is it a dirtier engine?
or was it left on longer? I think to find out how meaningful your
observation is you need to try it first with clean oil and clean filter.
I pretty sure you will observe quite a different behavior in the OEM
filter when its clean.
>
> My assumption, therefore, is that the behavior of the OEM media is the
> behavior preferred by the automaker.
You are assuming there would be any good reason for that preference. How
it behaves after it is removed from the car and about to be thrown away
might not be a very important design consideration.
>
> I forgot to say that also discovered that if I use a small tool to push
> the ADBV open on the OEM filters (breaking the seal), suddenly the
> center pipe begins to fill up from the dirty side, just like
> aftermarket. So maybe it's also the ADBV and not just the media which
> makes the difference. I don't know.
Are you telling us you have evidence that a filter made by Fram is the
only one on the market that has a working ADBV????
But, your observation doesn't mean the ADBV is not working. That valve
is intended to prevent oil from flowing backward (in the opposite
direction you are trying to make the oil flow). It is not supposed to
prevent it from flowing forward (or to keep air from flowing forward).
How do you know the other filters are not just letting air into the
dirty side by drawing it in slowly thru the filter media? On a brand
new oil filter air can pass thru the filtering media very easily.
>
> > I do not doubt that there are significant difference in the
> > flow characteristics of different filters especially when you have
> > different amounts of "dirt" in the oil and in the filter media, but
> > i'm not sure what you are saying the results of that particular flow
> > test means.
>
> If the "dirty" side doesn't leak into the center pipe, this would mean
> that the filter will remain more full after shutdown than it would
> otherwise. This means slightly quicker oil-pressure build on startup.
>
That is just plain not factually correct. The resistance of the filter
media to oil flowing forward and that the filter media is impermeable to
allowing air to flow back (when it is dirty) doesn't say anything at all
about whether it will prevent back flow. Your test doesn't really give
any indication that the back flow prevention is not working. It does
prove that when not much pressure is present and the filter is dirty the
oil does indeed move slowly thru a filter. Sometimes so slowly you think
it is noot ov ing at all.
If you want to see how fast the oil pressure builds on a car on start
up observe the oil pressure gauge or the oil pressure light. On most
cars the oil light will go out a second or two after you turn the key
(often before the engine is running) Your test is not really telling you
anything at all about that. If I observed what you had I would be
thinking maybe next time i should change the oil a little sooner, and
see if that changes the observed behavior.
There are definitely differences in flow resistance in different brand
filter media and there are definitely differences due to how dirty the
media is. I would bet if you go away and let the filter sit for an
hour. When you come back you would see that it has been slowly seeping
into the center.
>
> > I'm also curious why you specify that the filter must be "held
> > open-end up" for this test. Does it drain differently through the
> > filter media from the outside to the inside when facing up instead of
> > facing down?
> >
>
> Because it's easier to see inside if you hold it open-end up; you can
> watch the center pipe slowly fill. Or not fill, as the case may be.
>
> Hold it upside down and watch the oil dribble out instead, if you
> prefer.
Yes that is what I often prefer. It can then slowly empty. If the
opening is facing up it will only fill the center until the level is
equalized with the outer part. Then you have to empty it and wait for
more to seep in.
-jim
Heron McKeister
news:MoidnXoFt5MMJbzW...@bright.net...
A truly witty rejoinder and quite apropos albeit
haplessly wasted on a nincompoop dilettante.
> -jim
Nate Nagel
Get a f'ing room, you two.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
Tegger
<mucho snippage performed by Tegger upon this reply>
>
>
> Well maybe. How many observations are we talking about here? one?
> two? 50? Are these observations on the same vehicles using the same
> conditions for both OEM and other filters? How many other filters were
> tried?
More like 50. Same two vehicles. A number of aftermarket filters, maybe
four or five types, can't remember now.
>
> So what is it you think is preventing it from flowing thru the media
> in your test?
I don't know. All I know is what I see with my own eyes.
>
> Well you observed what happens when the filter media is dirty and when
> the oil is dirty. How about when the oil and filter are clean? Or how
> about when it is just a little dirty?
All the filters I remove myself are on the car for 3,000 miles or less,
so they're still pretty clean when removed.
> You are assuming there would be any good reason for that preference.
> How it behaves after it is removed from the car and about to be thrown
> away might not be a very important design consideration.
But while the filter is still on the engine its performance is of great
and continued importance. And the automaker has no idea exactly when the
filter will be removed and discarded.
>
> Are you telling us you have evidence that a filter made by Fram
> is the only one on the market that has a working ADBV????
Maybe. How do I know? All I know is what I see.
>
> Yes that is what I often prefer. It can then slowly empty. If the
> opening is facing up it will only fill the center until the level is
> equalized with the outer part. Then you have to empty it and wait for
> more to seep in.
>
You're not using OEM Honda or Toyota filters, then.
--
Tegger
jim
Tegger wrote:
>
> jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net> wrote in
> news:Itidnbc2b-1eN7_W...@bright.net:
>
> <mucho snippage performed by Tegger upon this reply>
>
> >
> >
> > Well maybe. How many observations are we talking about here? one?
> > two? 50? Are these observations on the same vehicles using the same
> > conditions for both OEM and other filters? How many other filters were
> > tried?
>
> More like 50. Same two vehicles. A number of aftermarket filters, maybe
> four or five types, can't remember now.
>
> >
> > So what is it you think is preventing it from flowing thru the media
> > in your test?
>
> I don't know. All I know is what I see with my own eyes.
>
> >
> > Well you observed what happens when the filter media is dirty and when
> > the oil is dirty. How about when the oil and filter are clean? Or how
> > about when it is just a little dirty?
>
> All the filters I remove myself are on the car for 3,000 miles or less,
> so they're still pretty clean when removed.
That maybe true, but your test demonstrates that the way the filter
behaves after it has been used in you car has changed considerably from
when the filter was fresh and clean. Try it with a clean filter and
clean warm oil if you don't believe me. If you get the oil warm enough
with a new filter and fresh oil it will run like water into the center
hole.
>
> > You are assuming there would be any good reason for that preference.
> > How it behaves after it is removed from the car and about to be thrown
> > away might not be a very important design consideration.
>
> But while the filter is still on the engine its performance is of great
> and continued importance. And the automaker has no idea exactly when the
> filter will be removed and discarded.
All very true, but what you are observing can only happen after someone
removes the filter from the car.
>
> >
> > Are you telling us you have evidence that a filter made by Fram
> > is the only one on the market that has a working ADBV????
>
> Maybe. How do I know? All I know is what I see.
Do you see "Honeywell" on the filter?
>
> >
> > Yes that is what I often prefer. It can then slowly empty. If the
> > opening is facing up it will only fill the center until the level is
> > equalized with the outer part. Then you have to empty it and wait for
> > more to seep in.
> >
>
> You're not using OEM Honda or Toyota filters, then.
That is correct. I am not and I certainly will not ever be using your
used ones. A fresh clean filter is not going to behave like that. But I
do like your little test and i will have to check it out when I have the
opportunity.
Tegger
>
>
> Tegger wrote:
>>
>>
>> All the filters I remove myself are on the car for 3,000 miles or
>> less, so they're still pretty clean when removed.
>
> That maybe true, but your test demonstrates that the way the filter
> behaves after it has been used in you car has changed considerably
> from when the filter was fresh and clean. Try it with a clean filter
> and clean warm oil if you don't believe me. If you get the oil warm
> enough with a new filter and fresh oil it will run like water into the
> center hole.
The point is that I have found that leakage occurs ONLY with aftermarket
filters with 3,000 miles on them, not OEM filters with 3,000 miles on
them.
THAT is the important part, regardless of how those filters would behave
when brand-new.
>
>>
>> > You are assuming there would be any good reason for that
>> > preference. How it behaves after it is removed from the car and
>> > about to be thrown away might not be a very important design
>> > consideration.
>>
>> But while the filter is still on the engine its performance is of
>> great and continued importance. And the automaker has no idea exactly
>> when the filter will be removed and discarded.
>
> All very true, but what you are observing can only happen after
> someone removes the filter from the car.
And I'm seeing a difference in behavior between OEM and aftermarket for
the /same/ oil, the /same/ cars, and the /same/ mileage.
Again, THAT is the important part, regardless of how those filters would
behave when brand-new.
>
>
>>
>> >
>> > Are you telling us you have evidence that a filter made by
>> > Fram is the only one on the market that has a working ADBV????
>>
>> Maybe. How do I know? All I know is what I see.
>
> Do you see "Honeywell" on the filter?
Yep. FRAM/AlliedSignal/Honeywell have supplied Honda Canada with their
OEM oil flters for at least 20 years now.
I see the OEM Toyota filters say "DENSO" on them.
--
Tegger
jim
Tegger wrote:
>
> jim <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net> wrote in
> news:ftOdnVUtmaUtmr7W...@bright.net:
>
> >
> >
> > Tegger wrote:
> >>
>
> >>
> >> All the filters I remove myself are on the car for 3,000 miles or
> >> less, so they're still pretty clean when removed.
> >
> > That maybe true, but your test demonstrates that the way the filter
> > behaves after it has been used in you car has changed considerably
> > from when the filter was fresh and clean. Try it with a clean filter
> > and clean warm oil if you don't believe me. If you get the oil warm
> > enough with a new filter and fresh oil it will run like water into the
> > center hole.
>
> The point is that I have found that leakage occurs ONLY with aftermarket
> filters with 3,000 miles on them, not OEM filters with 3,000 miles on
> them.
>
> THAT is the important part, regardless of how those filters would behave
> when brand-new.
Yes I agree that your test does indicate there is substantial functional
difference between different brands of oil filter media.
What I disagreed with is your interpretation that the test proves you
will get quicker oil pressure on cold starts. If you are interested in
knowing how different filters behave with respect to oil pressure on
cold starts then devise a test using an oil pressure gauge. The
knowledge of how it behaves on cold starts is not going to be acquired
by taking the filter off the car and using dubious logic on what you
observe. Cutting filters open and inspecting the guts isn't going to
tell you much about how it performs on cold starts either.
>
> >
> >>
> >> > You are assuming there would be any good reason for that
> >> > preference. How it behaves after it is removed from the car and
> >> > about to be thrown away might not be a very important design
> >> > consideration.
> >>
> >> But while the filter is still on the engine its performance is of
> >> great and continued importance. And the automaker has no idea exactly
> >> when the filter will be removed and discarded.
> >
> > All very true, but what you are observing can only happen after
> > someone removes the filter from the car.
>
> And I'm seeing a difference in behavior between OEM and aftermarket for
> the /same/ oil, the /same/ cars, and the /same/ mileage.
Yes and that means only one thing: After 3000 miles one filter offers
more resistance to the oil flow than another. In all likelihood the
reason for this difference is because the one filter is removing more
particles of dirt from the engine than the others.
>
> Again, THAT is the important part, regardless of how those filters would
> behave when brand-new.
Important part???? Important part of what? I hope you don't mean the
important part of some superstitious dogma or belief system.
I do agree (and have never disputed) that your test is A) easy for
anybody who changes oil to perform and B) does in your case demonstrate
a functional difference between the OEM filters and other filters.
> >
> >
> >>
> >> >
> >> > Are you telling us you have evidence that a filter made by
> >> > Fram is the only one on the market that has a working ADBV????
> >>
> >> Maybe. How do I know? All I know is what I see.
> >
> > Do you see "Honeywell" on the filter?
>
> Yep. FRAM/AlliedSignal/Honeywell have supplied Honda Canada with their
> OEM oil flters for at least 20 years now.
I didn't know that. I did know that US Hondas still had OEM filters made
by WIX (and others) as recently as 5 years ago. And it has also been my
observation that Honeywell uses a filter media that is different and
behaves differently than a WIX. And the way I know that is similar sort
of functional test of dirty filters.
-jim
E. Meyer
On 12/11/09 7:20 AM, in article Xns9CDE54D8...@208.90.168.18,
"Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote:
Really? When I take off a Honda filter and hold it open end up, it fills
the center pipe almost immediately, and they all have for at least the past
15 years. Maybe the ones they sell in Canada are different than what we get
in Texas?
Tegger
news:C7491BD3.14A66%e.p....@verizon.net:
And when you dump it, does it fill again, and keep filling each time after
you dump it?
Maybe the ones they sell in Canada are
> different than what we get in Texas?
>
I'm told US-market Honda filters are made by a different company from the
Canadian ones.
--
Tegger
E. Meyer
On 12/12/09 3:58 PM, in article Xns9CDFAC9A...@208.90.168.18,
"Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote:
> "E. Meyer" <e.p....@verizon.net> wrote in
> news:C7491BD3.14A66%e.p....@verizon.net:
>
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/11/09 7:20 AM, in article Xns9CDE54D8...@208.90.168.18,
>> "Tegger" <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote:
>>
>
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> When removed from the engine and held open-end up, aftermarket
>>> filters tend to continue to fill the center pipe from the "dirty"
>>> side. With OEM Honda and Toyota filters the center pipe remains dry
>>> under the same test (nothing leaks through from the "dirty" side).
>>>
>>
>> Really? When I take off a Honda filter and hold it open end up, it
>> fills the center pipe almost immediately, and they all have for at
>> least the past 15 years.
>
>
>
> And when you dump it, does it fill again, and keep filling each time after
> you dump it?
>
Yes.
>
> Maybe the ones they sell in Canada are
>> different than what we get in Texas?
>>
>
>
> I'm told US-market Honda filters are made by a different company from the
> Canadian ones.
>
>
They pretty much all say Fram. Occasionally I've seen a Filtech.
jfran
> "Tegger" <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
>
> news:Xns9CDD926F...@208.90.168.18...
>
> > "Heron McKeister" <n...@home.com> wrote in
> >news:us6Um.55009$X01....@newsfe07.iad:
>
> > > "Tegger" <inva...@invalid.inv> wrote in message
> > >news:Xns9CDD50C...@208.90.168.18...
>
>
> Does your "experience" cover each and every single
> year, model and configuration of all Toyotas and
> Hondas ever produced? I somehow thought not.
Talking like you do, you must be some kind of expert. Just how much
experience do you have installing brakes on Honda's and Toyota's?