Don't Blame Floor Mats for Toyota (Lexus) Runaways
john
April 2008 after her Camry sped and hit two trees although she
"vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes, according to the
lawsuit filed in Genesee County Circuit Court by Lilia Alberto, a
representative of her estate.
Alberto's Camry had no floor mat on the driver's side, the lawyers
said in the lawsuit.
Federal regulators and Toyota Motor Corp. are discussing whether the
automaker needs to fix gas pedals or floor pans in millions of
recalled vehicles instead of blaming floor mats, which the automaker
had maintained was the source of unintended acceleration cases.
Full article at:
http://www.freep.com/article/20091118/BUSINESS01/911180370/Toyota-looking-beyond-the-mats
Scott Dorsey
>Alberto, a 77-year-old General Motors Co. retiree from Flint, died in
>April 2008 after her Camry sped and hit two trees although she
>"vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes, according to the
>lawsuit filed in Genesee County Circuit Court by Lilia Alberto, a
>representative of her estate.
Wait, wait.... this is a GM retiree who owns a Toyota?
I don't know WHAT that says but it sure doesn't sound good for the
US auto industry.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
C. E. White
"john" <john...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f99ee0b9-1313-455e...@j9g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> Alberto, a 77-year-old General Motors Co. retiree from Flint, died
> in
> April 2008 after her Camry sped and hit two trees although she
> "vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes, according to the
> lawsuit filed in Genesee County Circuit Court by Lilia Alberto, a
> representative of her estate.
How do they know she "vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes
if she diesd in the crash? Sounds like another case of pedal confusion
to me.
Ed
Vic Smith
>john <john...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>Alberto, a 77-year-old General Motors Co. retiree from Flint, died in
>>April 2008 after her Camry sped and hit two trees although she
>>"vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes, according to the
>>lawsuit filed in Genesee County Circuit Court by Lilia Alberto, a
>>representative of her estate.
>
>Wait, wait.... this is a GM retiree who owns a Toyota?
>I don't know WHAT that says but it sure doesn't sound good for the
>US auto industry.
The "poetic justice" part didn't do too well for her either.
Karma with a vengeance.
--Vic
jim
"C. E. White" wrote:
>
> "john" <john...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:f99ee0b9-1313-455e...@j9g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> > Alberto, a 77-year-old General Motors Co. retiree from Flint, died
> > in
> > April 2008 after her Camry sped and hit two trees although she
> > "vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes, according to the
> > lawsuit filed in Genesee County Circuit Court by Lilia Alberto, a
> > representative of her estate.
>
> How do they know she "vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes
> if she diesd in the crash? Sounds like another case of pedal confusion
> to me.
I would think it would be fairly easy to tell if the pads and rotors had
been heated beyond the point where they no longer can stop the vehicle.
This is something that has been observed in vehicles (usually trucks)
that have brake failure on long steep downhill grades. If the rotors
have turned blue I'd say that is pretty good evidence the brakes were
applied vigorously and desperately.
-jim
C. E. White
"jim" <"sjedgingN0Sp"@m@mwt,net> wrote in message
news:xaudnb0dysr_N5vW...@bright.net...
The problem is, she may have also been pressing the accelerator pedal
at the same time. It is less likely with a lady becasue they generally
have smaller feet, but it still happens.
And even if the rotors show signs of having been over heated, how do
you tell when this happened?
Ed
Don Stauffer
>
> How do they know she "vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes
> if she diesd in the crash? Sounds like another case of pedal confusion
> to me.
>
> Ed
>
I belong to a Prius discussion group, and a couple of members have had
strong acceleration when using the resume button on their cruise
control. They believe the cruise control may be the problem on several
models of Toyota. After using the resume button the cruise control held
the accelerator way open well after the car reached the previously set
speed. The people reporting this were able to turn off the cruise
control easily enough, and the brakes slowed the car while they were
turning it off.
Desertphile
<john...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> Alberto's Camry had no floor mat on the driver's side, the lawyers
> said in the lawsuit.
That does not mean the vehicle did not have a floor mat on the
driver's side at the time just preceeding the crash.
--
http://desertphile.org
Desertphile's Desert Soliloquy. WARNING: view with plenty of water
"Why aren't resurrections from the dead noteworthy?" -- Jim Rutz
jim
"C. E. White" wrote:
> The problem is, she may have also been pressing the accelerator pedal
> at the same time. It is less likely with a lady becasue they generally
> have smaller feet, but it still happens.
The question I responded to was:
How do they know she "vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes
>
> And even if the rotors show signs of having been over heated, how do
> you tell when this happened?
Well it would have happened the last time the car was driven if the wear
surface is blue. If you let the rotors cool and use the brakes normally
it will fairly quickly wear off that bluish patina and return the color
back to a more normal appearance.
-jim
Gordo's Psychiatrist
that you can't afford to purchase a Toyota or Lexus? You still stuck with
that 10 year old Kia with 235,000 miles on it?
"john" <john...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:f99ee0b9-1313-455e...@j9g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
in2dadark
I think this could very well be the case. My 2001 camry sometimes
'over does it' when I put it on cruise. I'm not 77 and I haven't been
dealing with GM aggravation all my life so I know what to do.. But it
does get carried away sometimes. She was 77. The car decided it was
her time to go..
ben91932
> How do they know she "vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes
> if she diesd in the crash? Sounds like another case of pedal confusion
> to me.
>
> Ed
IIRC, obd2 can store values like brake pressure....
Jeff Strickland
"C. E. White" <cewh...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:he62s9$ps2$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
>
> "john" <john...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:f99ee0b9-1313-455e...@j9g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>> Alberto, a 77-year-old General Motors Co. retiree from Flint, died in
>> April 2008 after her Camry sped and hit two trees although she
>> "vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes, according to the
>> lawsuit filed in Genesee County Circuit Court by Lilia Alberto, a
>> representative of her estate.
>
> How do they know she "vigorously and desperately" applied her brakes if
> she diesd in the crash? Sounds like another case of pedal confusion to me.
>
> Ed
>
Automobiles, particularly the high-end models, have a black box in them.
They can look at the data stored in the box to see what was happening before
the crash -- sorta like a black box in an airplane.
http://www.expertlaw.com/library/accidents/auto_black_boxes.html
http://www.ecoworld.com/technology/automobile-black-box.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,141048,00.html
Ray O
"ben91932" <bente...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:3fcb0f20-2213-4d0e...@z41g2000yqz.googlegroups.com...
As Jeff Strickland posted, some vehicles have a separate recording device
that is separate from OBD II. OBD II does not store pedal pressure as most
vehicles do not have a pedal pressure sensor.
BTW, there is another indicator besides discolored brake rotors and black
boxes as to whether the brakes were applied at the time of impact.
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
in2dadark
wrote:
> "ben91932" <benteac...@gmail.com> wrote in message
And that would be...?
Hachiroku ハチロク
I would think skid marks. If you apply the brakes on a front wheel drive
car, even though the ABS would kick in, the rears would hop and make a
dotted line along the roadway.
However, this might have been an AWD Lexus, and in this case the engine's
HP might overcome the brakes...?
Scott Dorsey
>On Nov 22, 9:33=A0pm, "Ray O" <rokig...@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com>
>wrote:
>>
>> BTW, there is another indicator besides discolored brake rotors and black
>> boxes as to whether the brakes were applied at the time of impact.
>
Most common one is the condition of the brake light bulb filaments. If
they broke under impact while the light was illuminated, there will be
metal sputtered on the inside the envelope and the edges of the filament
break will be melted. If they broke under impact while the light was
cold, it will be a clean break with no sputtered metal.
cuh...@webtv.net
on tv news.Looked mighty thick to me.
cuhulin
Ray O
"in2dadark" <in2d...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:b6cd16f3-c946-42ae...@p35g2000yqh.googlegroups.com...
And that would be...?
********
As Scott Dorsey mentioned, the brake light bulbs can give an indication of
whether or not the lights were illuminated at the time of impact.
I can't confirm whether or not Scott's explanation if correct or not, but it
sounds plausible.
We used to have to check out vehicles where the operator claimed that a
defect in the vehicle caused an accident, and I noticed that police
technicians often removed the brake light bulbs or tail light assemblies,
and when I asked the technician why he was removing the bulbs, he said that
the brake light bulbs tell a story.
Hachiroku ハチロク
> How thick are those Toyota floor mats anyway? I saw a video clip of one on
> tv news.Looked mighty thick to me. cuhulin
There's a couple things here. For one, there is a clip to hold the mat in
place. Every time I sent a car out, the mats were clipped like they were
supposed to be. Other people in the set-up shop didn't care.
Also, some people don't want the floor to get dirty, so they buy mats.
Then they see the mats cost $120 or more, so they buy mats for the mats!
THIS can definitely cause problems esp since the secondary mats don't have
the clips and can move freely about the cabin...
ben91932
> On Thu, 26 Nov 2009 20:50:15 -0600, cuhulin wrote:
> > How thick are those Toyota floor mats anyway? I saw a video clip of one on
> > tv news.Looked mighty thick to me. cuhulin
Toyota is smart to be hiding a computer reflash to the floormat
recall.
They are adding progamming that closes the throttle upon brake
activation. BMW and others are already doing this.
If the public thinks the problem can be easily remedied by something
simple (floormats), Toyota's image wont be sullied as much.
Ben
Nate Nagel
Don't they offer heavy rubber "winter" mats at the dealership? That was
the first thing I bought for my GTI, and they are great, much heavier
than anything you can buy at your FLAPS with deep ridges to hold melting
slush, inadvertant coffee incidents, etc.
I never understood the use of carpet in a car in the first place, it's
gonna look like hell unless you cover it up with rubber. Now even
pickup trucks have carpet - WTF? And my company car came with TAN
colored carpets - and they expect me to visit construction sites in it?
I bought heavy rubber mats for that one too, although I had to go
aftermarket for that car, GM is apparently not as sensible as the Krauts.
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
Nate Nagel
No trail braking?
hls
"Ray O" <roki...@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote in message
>
> As Scott Dorsey mentioned, the brake light bulbs can give an indication of
> whether or not the lights were illuminated at the time of impact.
>
> I can't confirm whether or not Scott's explanation if correct or not, but
> it sounds plausible.
>
> We used to have to check out vehicles where the operator claimed that a
> defect in the vehicle caused an accident, and I noticed that police
> technicians often removed the brake light bulbs or tail light assemblies,
> and when I asked the technician why he was removing the bulbs, he said
> that the brake light bulbs tell a story.
> --
>
> Ray O
I can reasonably accept that the carpets caused some of the problems, or
that in
some cases a driver had his or her foot on both pedals, but Toyota needs to
slay this
dragon once and for all.
I have two newish Toyotas, and neither one of them has ever misbehaved or
given me
anything at all to complain about.
I am sure that if this happened to me, I COULD get the car stopped. I am
not so sure
about my wife, even though we have gone through the drill.
sctvguy1
I know that you have old Studebakers, right? My 40 Chrysler had all
rubber floor mats, and my 41 Windsor has the "fancy" carpeting, still
looks like new, it has the rubber floor mats from the factory to protect
the carpet!
Harry Face
Where have you been? Pick Up Trucks have had carpet since the 1960's. My
dads first truck was a 1962 Chevy with a rubber covering on the
sheetmetal floor. No insulation under it. A lot of road noise came
through the floor, plus the floor was freezing cold in the winter. Water
would freeze on the rubber floor covering and stay there for days if it
was under 32 degrees.
My dad had a machine shop from 1955 until his death in 2001 and all the
trucks after he got rid of the 62 had carpet. 1968 (maybe had rubber
?), 74, 84 Chevy and a 91 Ford. They stayed reasonable clean. Brushing
off the metal chips and dirt, Vacuum and the occasional spraying of
carpet cleaner helped.
The Ford was the first and only one with carpeted floormats, but when
they got too dirty or worn they were thrown out & replaced.
harryface
91 Bonneville 320,747
05 Park Avenue 92,656
N8N
My '93 F*rd has a rubber floor mat... *with* insulation underneath,
thankfully. Friend of mine had a '94 F*rd that appeared identical.
I believe some of the couple year old Ch*vy shop trucks at work still
have rubber floor mats as well.
nate