1986 Chevrolet Celibity
Jan
condition (also still has the orginial upholstery)exceptit got a tiny
power steering leak which I had to add about a tablespoon of p.s.
fluid about once a week. I was told to buy a Rack and Pinion (Cost me
$93 counting the tax and core charge. I took it to a well known
mechanic and he fixed it. He also said I had a small leak in the
radiator so I bought a radiator also. Everything else looked pretty
good. Except he, me, and a few other friends, couldn't find it in any
book why the fan runs constantly. Most of the books we found had 1985
and 1987 Chevrolets listed. Do I have a "one of a kind" auto. :-) The
mechanic said I didn't need any coolant either. I thought all cars
needed coolant. (Yes, I am a woman. :-)Any ideas?
Scott Dorsey
If the car is cold, hasn't been driven in a day or so, and you turn it
on, does the fan start up immediately?
If this is the case, you KNOW it's not because the thing is overheating,
it has to be because of a sensor.
In '86, the fan was probably controlled directly by a temperature-control
switch, rather than by the engine computer. Follow the wires of the fan
out and see if any of them are connected to a thing that is bolted into
the engine or screwed into the engine. If so, measure that thing with
an ohmmeter and make sure it is an open when it's cold, instead of a short.
If it's a short even when it's cold, take it out and take it to your
local auto parts store and get a replacement.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
twisted
>
> If this is the case, you KNOW it's not because the thing is overheating,
> it has to be because of a sensor.
> --scott
>
> --
> "C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
Someone could have "jumped it out" to make it run all thew time!
ray
> it has to be because of a sensor.
>
> In '86, the fan was probably controlled directly by a temperature-control
> switch, rather than by the engine computer. Follow the wires of the fan
> out and see if any of them are connected to a thing that is bolted into
> the engine or screwed into the engine. If so, measure that thing with
> an ohmmeter and make sure it is an open when it's cold, instead of a short.
> If it's a short even when it's cold, take it out and take it to your
> local auto parts store and get a replacement.
> --scott
>
not necessarily. Friend had an 85 Cavalier that the fan ran constantly.
Sending unit was fine. Step 2 was replace the computer, so he just
wired up a manual switch. I believe the wife's 90 Beretta and my old 84
Fiero were the same way.
Definitely start with the sensor tho.
Ray
Ad absurdum per aspera
A possibly relevant Technical Service Bulletin came out partway
through that model year:
> 86203 DEC 86 Coolant Fan - Runs Whenever Ignition Switch is in Run
That's about all I know about it without dropping some money on
alldatadiy.com or https://www.acdelcotds.com/acdelco/action/home but
it might be worth looking into.
BTW, the fan always running (as long as it eventually goes off --
there is also a TSB for
902396B MAY 90 Cooling Fan - Runs Battery Dead ) is sure
preferable to the fan's *not* running when it needs to. But I think
any cooling-system bizarreness should be sorted out and repaired, if
you like the car and mean to keep it.
Cheers,
--Joe
PS. When working under the hood, keep in mind that these electrical
fans can come on without warning even when the engine is off...
Toyota MDT in MO
> In article <ed1b26ee-1ae8-41d3...@j9g2000vbp.googlegroups.com>,
> Jan <TnGal...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> I have a black, 4 door, 1986 Chervolet Celibity. It is in mint
>> condition (also still has the orginial upholstery)exceptit got a tiny
>> power steering leak which I had to add about a tablespoon of p.s.
>> fluid about once a week. I was told to buy a Rack and Pinion (Cost me
>> $93 counting the tax and core charge. I took it to a well known
>> mechanic and he fixed it. He also said I had a small leak in the
>> radiator so I bought a radiator also. Everything else looked pretty
>> good. Except he, me, and a few other friends, couldn't find it in any
>> book why the fan runs constantly. Most of the books we found had 1985
>> and 1987 Chevrolets listed. Do I have a "one of a kind" auto. :-) The
>> mechanic said I didn't need any coolant either. I thought all cars
>> needed coolant. (Yes, I am a woman. :-)Any ideas?
>>
>
> If the car is cold, hasn't been driven in a day or so, and you turn it
> on, does the fan start up immediately?
>
> If this is the case, you KNOW it's not because the thing is overheating,
> it has to be because of a sensor.
>
>
Correct.
> In '86, the fan was probably controlled directly by a temperature-control
> switch, rather than by the engine computer.
It is controlled by a coolant temp switch input to the fan relay (closed
at 230*F); this circuit is also paralleled to a relay output that
requires A/C clutch command (depends on engine option: V5 runs all the
time and the DA6 cycles) and ECM approval before closing the fan relay.
> Follow the wires of the fan
> out and see if any of them are connected to a thing that is bolted into
> the engine or screwed into the engine.
That won't yield a useful result. No engine mounted switch is going to
handle 20+ amps on any vehicle I've seen. Motors of this size always go
through a relay, and the routing of the wires will not be easy to follow
what with the masses of enclosed harness and hidden relay panel backs.
> If so, measure that thing with
> an ohmmeter and make sure it is an open when it's cold, instead of a short.
> If it's a short even when it's cold, take it out and take it to your
> local auto parts store and get a replacement.
> --scott
>
Good advice. I hope the well known mechanic referenced in the above
riveting story heeds it. Then he can move on to discover the most
likely failed relay, thereby taking a logical diagnostic path towards a
solution.
BTW, I know all of this because, yes, I am a man. (note: ignorant
comment not actually intended to be taken at face value)
--
Toyota MDT in MO
Scott Dorsey
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>
>> In '86, the fan was probably controlled directly by a temperature-control
>> switch, rather than by the engine computer.
>
>It is controlled by a coolant temp switch input to the fan relay (closed
>at 230*F); this circuit is also paralleled to a relay output that
>requires A/C clutch command (depends on engine option: V5 runs all the
>time and the DA6 cycles) and ECM approval before closing the fan relay.
AAARGH! Why all this crap just for a simple fan? This is the kind of
stuff German car makers do.
So... first step is to check the fan relay.....
---scott
Ad absurdum per aspera
> >It is controlled by a coolant temp switch input to the fan relay (closed
> >at 230*F); this circuit is also paralleled to a relay output that
> >requires A/C clutch command (depends on engine option: V5 runs all the
> >time and the DA6 cycles) and ECM approval before closing the fan relay.
> AAARGH! Why all this crap just for a simple fan? This is the kind of
> stuff German car makers do.
Welcome to the new millennium. The only strange sounding thing about
it to me is that GM was doing it as early as '86. I just realized
that my coffeepot AND toaster both have embedded processors now.
My guess about the AC clutch, without obtaining and pondering the
schematic, is that there was a tradeoff between too much current drain
at idle (perhaps the reason the ECM gets involved) and risk of too
much lag time between actual physical overheating and fan on, since AC
adds to the engine heat load and is usually employed when the ambient
temperature is hot anyway.
A friend of mine called the late 70s and early 80s the "heart-lung
machine" era of engine controls...
--Joe
Steve Austin
The ac needs air pulled thru the condensor. The cooling fans on most
cars run when the ac is on and the car is stopped.
Nate Nagel
No they don't, or at least didn't start doing it until much later. All
my German cars (well, not sure about the '02 GTI) used a simple
thermoswitch in the radiator, and a relay (also tied into the A/C if car
has it.) That's it.
People accuse German cars of being overly complex, and in some cases
that is justified, but it's a really recent phenomenon. Overengineered,
yes, but overly complex...
Now I would say "that's the kind of thing I'd expect from a Japanese car" :P
nate
--
replace "roosters" with "cox" to reply.
http://members.cox.net/njnagel
Toyota MDT in MO
Camry, 2003 Corolla, and 2004 Sienna are a few specific examples.
:P right back at ya!
Tegger
news:h2gsi...@news2.newsguy.com:
>
> People accuse German cars of being overly complex, and in some cases
> that is justified, but it's a really recent phenomenon.
> Overengineered, yes, but overly complex...
>
> Now I would say "that's the kind of thing I'd expect from a Japanese
> car" :P
>
Honda didn't even start using relays in their fan control until about 1992.
Prior to that it was a simple thermal switch to ground through the fan
motor; as crude as it can get.
--
Tegger
ben91932
> Good advice. I hope the well known mechanic referenced in the above
> riveting story heeds it. Then he can move on to discover the most
> likely failed relay, thereby taking a logical diagnostic path towards a
> solution.
>
The guy might be well known, butif he cant diagnose a simple
circuit....
Power, ground and relay trigger is all...
But seriously, I diagnosed a ton of these by looking at the relay
connector... when these things fail they
tend to leave heat evidence at the relay connection.
HTH
Ben
Toyota MDT in MO
HTH? You're assuming the well known mechanic knows of this thread *and*
can read.
z
> Nate Nagel <njna...@roosters.net> wrote innews:h2gsi...@news2.newsguy.com:
my civic doesn't even have a horn relay; i thought most cars adopted
them when air bags came in and the horn button became a tiny item with
tiny contacts rather than a big robust jobbie.
and it didn't have a headlight relay; it does now (on the advice of
daniel stern the lighting guy who posts here sometimes) along with
decently large gauge wire, and thats perked up the lighting with stock
wattage bulbs more than higher wattage bulbs did with the stock
wiring.
N8N
Heck, I thought *all* cars had horn relays! My '55 Stude has one, and
I'm sure that it wasn't new for that year.
The nice thing about using a horn relay is then you don't have all
that juice traveling up the steering column, which used to be metal
back in the day (although you still have the directional signal
wires...) the horn wire in the column is current-limited by the horn
relay coil.
nate
Toyota MDT in MO
Do you know of a (for example) late 80's Honda that works as you say?
I'm not aware of one.
Tegger
news:_Uq4m.2642$j84....@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com:
I might have been a bit too broad with my original comment.
On further investigation it looks like the no-relay arrangement was the
case only with rad fans on vehicles _without_ A/C. Cars _with_ A/C always
had relays to carry rad fan current.
I find numerous non-A/C Hondas from the late '80s up to 1991 with no relays
for the rad fan. My 1991 Integra is one of them. The rad fan thermo-
switches on those cars are not too reliable.
--
Tegger
Tegger
news:6ebca551-11b0-451b...@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com:
> On Jul 1, 9:10�pm, Tegger <invalid @ invalid.inv> wrote:
>> Nate Nagel <njnagel @ roosters.net> wrote
>> innews:h2gsi...@news2.newsguy.c
> om:
>>
>>
>>
>> > People accuse German cars of being overly complex, and in some
>> > cases that is justified, but it's a really recent phenomenon.
>> > Overengineered, yes, but overly complex...
>>
>> > Now I would say "that's the kind of thing I'd expect from a
>> > Japanese car" :P
>>
>> Honda didn't even start using relays in their fan control until about
>> 1992.
>>
>> Prior to that it was a simple thermal switch to ground through the
>> fan motor; as crude as it can get.
>>
>> --
>> Tegger
>
> my civic doesn't even have a horn relay; i thought most cars adopted
> them when air bags came in and the horn button became a tiny item with
> tiny contacts rather than a big robust jobbie.
If you have SRS, you have a horn relay. As far as I'm aware, only non-SRS
Hondas had no horn relay. (I'm trying to be careful here so as to prevent
that Toyota guy from Missouri calling me on this.)
On those non-SRS cars, I've seen surface corrosion on the little brass tab
that carries current from the wiring to the slip ring prevent the horn from
working fully (horn makes a sort of buzzing noise instead). Sand the tab
nice and clean and things are OK again. Tends to get diagnosed as bad
horns.
--
Tegger
Toyota MDT in MO
I'll be damned! I can't remember the last Honda product I saw without
A/C. I checked many diagrams from the 80's before asking the question,
and they all show (perhaps erroneously) two relays and two fans being
employed with or without A/C. I then checked your car specifically and
the diagram is correct as you describe it. What a piece of crap setup!
Have you considered (or already tried) wiring in a relay? I've done
that with success on the older Toyota neutral safety circuits that get
gummed up inside the PRNDL switch housing and can't handle starter
solenoid current anymore. Another quality omission of a $0.50 relay.
I just checked the only paper OEM EWD I still have (1990 Civic, all
models) and it shows one fan, one relay on the without A/C system. The
88 Civic rollout is about as far back as I can remember anyway :-)
Tegger
> Tegger wrote:
>>
>> I find numerous non-A/C Hondas from the late '80s up to 1991 with no
>> relays for the rad fan. My 1991 Integra is one of them. The rad fan
>> thermo- switches on those cars are not too reliable.
>>
>>
>>
>
> I'll be damned! I can't remember the last Honda product I saw without
> A/C. I checked many diagrams from the 80's before asking the
> question, and they all show (perhaps erroneously) two relays and two
> fans being employed with or without A/C.
> I then checked your car
> specifically and the diagram is correct as you describe it. What a
> piece of crap setup!
Yep.
Generally, I like Hondas, but boy they do some weird stuff sometimes.
With my car, I figure they spent so much money on that Chinese-puzzle of a
rear suspension that they didn't have any money left for more relays.
> Have you considered (or already tried) wiring in
> a relay?
Nah. I've put up with this for 18 years. I've gotten used to treating the
fan switch as a consumable. It's cheap and only takes a few extra minutes
at oil-change time to swap. Actually, last time it failed, it kicked the
fan in way too SOON, so the fan ran as long as the coolant temp was above
about 150F. Drove me nuts, I tell ya.
> I've done that with success on the older Toyota neutral
> safety circuits that get gummed up inside the PRNDL switch housing and
> can't handle starter solenoid current anymore. Another quality
> omission of a $0.50 relay.
>
> I just checked the only paper OEM EWD I still have (1990 Civic, all
> models) and it shows one fan, one relay on the without A/C system.
My '91 Civic paper manual shows relays in both cases as well, but for US
only. Canada had no relay with AND without A/C.
> The 88 Civic rollout is about as far back as I can remember anyway :-)
>
I'm seeing the '88 Civic with no relay when not equipped with A/C...
--
Tegger
Toyota MDT in MO
Alldata doesn't show it that way. Are you reading out of an OEM EWD,
or? Keep in mind I don't automatically trust Alldata, especially on the
older stuff. They could have easily omitted the sans A/C diagrams by
accident and no one would be the wiser (until one opened the hood and
looked).
Thanks!
Tegger
> Tegger wrote:
>>
>>
>> My '91 Civic paper manual shows relays in both cases as well, but for
>> US only. Canada had no relay with AND without A/C.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> The 88 Civic rollout is about as far back as I can remember anyway
>>> :-)
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm seeing the '88 Civic with no relay when not equipped with A/C...
>>
>>
>>
>
> Alldata doesn't show it that way. Are you reading out of an OEM EWD,
> or?
It says Honda Motor Co. Ltd., First Edition, 12/87.
Then again, one of the engines listed is a D12B, which was never offered in
North America, so this may be a European manual (I got it cheap).
My '91 Civic paper manual is /definitely/ for US/Canada.
> Keep in mind I don't automatically trust Alldata, especially on
> the older stuff. They could have easily omitted the sans A/C diagrams
> by accident and no one would be the wiser (until one opened the hood
> and looked).
You'd almost think they were Haynes...
>
> Thanks!
>
Welcome.
--
Tegger
Mark Olson
> Nah. I've put up with this for 18 years. I've gotten used to treating the
> fan switch as a consumable. It's cheap and only takes a few extra minutes
> at oil-change time to swap. Actually, last time it failed, it kicked the
> fan in way too SOON, so the fan ran as long as the coolant temp was above
> about 150F. Drove me nuts, I tell ya.
I don't know if you could use this- but it might be worth a try.
I have a Honda radiator fan switch I bought as an experiment to use
on a Honda motorcycle, figuring it was worth a gamble to avoid having
to pay more than $50 for the Honda motorcycle part. I installed it
briefly and removed it after determining that it turned on at too low
of a temperature for the bike.
I bought it at Autozone, it is a Duralast P/N SW 518, also sold as a
Wells SW 518. Here's a picture:
http://www.visi.com/~olsonm/6.jpg
Part Number: SW518
Weight: 0.141 lbs
Quantity Per Car: 1
OEM Number: 19021006; 37773- PB1- 003
Wells specs say
http://www.wellsmfgcorp.com/ds_fans.php?showall=yes
SW518
(View Image) 2 Male Blade Terminal M16 x 1.5 Open Makes 90c � 3 Breaks 83c � 4
Rockauto.com says it fits
HONDA ACCORD (1984 - 1985)
HONDA ACCORD 1800 LX (1984 - 1985)
HONDA ACCORD 1800 SE-I 1985
HONDA ACCORD 1800 STD (1984 - 1985)
HONDA ACCORD S 1985
HONDA PRELUDE (1983 - 1985)
No idea if it would work for your application, note the M16x1.5 thread and O-ring seal.
Replace tiny.invalid with visi.com to email me, $10 via paypal gets it to you.
Regards
Mark