I changed the Camry's ATF today (added Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF)
Built_Well
replacing it with Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF. 3.7 quarts of red T-IV
drained out and I replaced it with 4 quarts of red M1 Synthetic. The
extra 1/4 of a quart or 0.30 quarts isn't too much extra, is it?
Not enough to cause foaming or windage, right? (Not even sure windage
is an issue in automatic transmissions like windage can be with motor
oil inside an engine.)
Anyway, the car really likes the M1 ATF so far. True only about
50 percent of the car's total ATF capacity is M1. The other 50 percent
is the factory fill of T-IV (now 25,000 miles old and 3.5 years).
Maybe it's my imagination, but the car seemed like it was shifting
a lot better today with the M1 synthetic in it. Or maybe it's just a
result of having some fresh sauce in the car.
I took a sample of the drained T-IV ATF and will mail it to
Blackstone Labs tomorrow, just for fun. I don't expect to see any
problems.
The only thing I didn't much care for during the ATF change was the
surprise of finding an Allen wrench socket on the transmission pan's
drain plug. It's not a regular bolt, so I wasn't able to use my trusty
Craftsman torque wrench to torque the drain plug to 36 foot-pounds.
This is an '06 Camry, and unfortunately the Camry service and repair
manual I downloaded from CamryStuff.com is for an older 2002 (same
5th generation Camry but the '06 and '05 models are considered
Generation 5.5 --they differ slightly from the 2002 to 2004 cars).
So after reading the CamryStuff .pdf document, I was expecting to torque
a regular drain plug bolt to 36 foot-pounds, but obviously I couldn't
with the Allen wrench (ie, hex? wrench) drain plug. Is there some way
to properly torque an Allen wrench bolt? Does it take a special adapter
fitted to your torque wrench?
I'm concerned I came close to stripping the threads by overtightening
with an unmeasured Allen wrench. If I did come dangerously close to
stripping the threads, might the pan start leaking sometime in the next
few days? Or weeks? Or even months? So far no leaking. Well, I noticed
I did have some leaking after the first Allen wrench tightening, so I
tightened further, and further again. I think I should have waited for
the complete ATF fluid dripping to stop before doing any tightening.
The dripping may have lead to my problem of possibly overtightening and
coming very close to stripping the threads. I waited for only one drip
every 3 seconds, but even that, I think, was too soon to begin tightening.
Anyway, is there some way to check the torque of an Allen wrench drain
plug bolt, or to torque an Allen wrench bolt properly in the first place?
Ray O
"Built_Well" <Built_We...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4a4d869f$0$79708$892e...@auth.newsreader.octanews.com...
> Today I did a drain and refill of my transmission pan's Toyota T-IV,
> replacing it with Mobil 1 Synthetic ATF. 3.7 quarts of red T-IV
> drained out and I replaced it with 4 quarts of red M1 Synthetic. The
> extra 1/4 of a quart or 0.30 quarts isn't too much extra, is it?
> Not enough to cause foaming or windage, right? (Not even sure windage
> is an issue in automatic transmissions like windage can be with motor
> oil inside an engine.)
>
1/4 quart is not too much extra and won't cause damage.
> Anyway, the car really likes the M1 ATF so far. True only about
> 50 percent of the car's total ATF capacity is M1. The other 50 percent
> is the factory fill of T-IV (now 25,000 miles old and 3.5 years).
> Maybe it's my imagination, but the car seemed like it was shifting
> a lot better today with the M1 synthetic in it. Or maybe it's just a
> result of having some fresh sauce in the car.
>
> I took a sample of the drained T-IV ATF and will mail it to
> Blackstone Labs tomorrow, just for fun. I don't expect to see any
> problems.
>
> The only thing I didn't much care for during the ATF change was the
> surprise of finding an Allen wrench socket on the transmission pan's
> drain plug. It's not a regular bolt, so I wasn't able to use my trusty
> Craftsman torque wrench to torque the drain plug to 36 foot-pounds.
> This is an '06 Camry, and unfortunately the Camry service and repair
> manual I downloaded from CamryStuff.com is for an older 2002 (same
> 5th generation Camry but the '06 and '05 models are considered
> Generation 5.5 --they differ slightly from the 2002 to 2004 cars).
> So after reading the CamryStuff .pdf document, I was expecting to torque
> a regular drain plug bolt to 36 foot-pounds, but obviously I couldn't
> with the Allen wrench (ie, hex? wrench) drain plug. Is there some way
> to properly torque an Allen wrench bolt? Does it take a special adapter
> fitted to your torque wrench?
Just get the proper size Allen wrench with a 1/2 inch drive or whatever
drive you torque wrench has. It looks like an allen wrench stuck in a
socket.
>
> I'm concerned I came close to stripping the threads by overtightening
> with an unmeasured Allen wrench. If I did come dangerously close to
> stripping the threads, might the pan start leaking sometime in the next
> few days? Or weeks? Or even months? So far no leaking. Well, I noticed
> I did have some leaking after the first Allen wrench tightening, so I
> tightened further, and further again. I think I should have waited for
> the complete ATF fluid dripping to stop before doing any tightening.
> The dripping may have lead to my problem of possibly overtightening and
> coming very close to stripping the threads. I waited for only one drip
> every 3 seconds, but even that, I think, was too soon to begin tightening.
>
> Anyway, is there some way to check the torque of an Allen wrench drain
> plug bolt, or to torque an Allen wrench bolt properly in the first place?
>
With the Allen wrench mounted in a 1/2 inch drive, you can't really measure
how tight the bolt is but you can check to see if it is tightened to at
least 36 foot pounds. To torque the bolt properly in the first place, it
has to be removed.
--
Ray O
(correct punctuation to reply)
dsi1
> With the Allen wrench mounted in a 1/2 inch drive, you can't really measure
> how tight the bolt is but you can check to see if it is tightened to at
> least 36 foot pounds. To torque the bolt properly in the first place, it
> has to be removed.
Why would you not be able to measure the torque of an allen wrench
socket? Why even use a torque wrench?
MCL
off the long side of the allen wrench & then use the proper size socket to
loosen or tighten. I use one setup like that for my GM brake calipers &
another for my Camry tranny.
ransley
Check it hot and idling, Yes 1/2 qt is to much and will make a big
difference, lower it , it will put less pressure on seals and shift
better and maybe better mpg- less oil, less parts submerged. dont
forget the differential.
Sharx35
"ransley" <Mark_R...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d6d99268-dfd9-4ac3...@x3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
Hot and idling, yes, of course. On a level surface, naturally. But in what
gear--park?? neutral??
the fly
wrote:
>> Check it hot and idling, Yes 1/2 qt is to much and will make a big
>> difference, lower it , it will put less pressure on seals and shift
>> better and maybe better mpg- less oil, less parts submerged. dont
>> forget the differential.
>
>Hot and idling, yes, of course. On a level surface, naturally. But in what
>gear--park?? neutral??
>
>
Either park or neutral. It will make no difference in the
fluid level measurement. In park, the trans IS in neutral, with the
addition of engaging the parking pawl with the rotating parts.
Ray O
"dsi1" <ds...@spamnet.com> wrote in message
news:heh3m.2291$dd4...@newsfe10.iad...
My statement was worded poorly. Regardless of the type of drive system a
fastener has, whether it has an Allen type head square drive, or hex head,
you can't measure how tight the fastener is, but you can measure how much
torque is takes to tighten the fastener some more. In the OP's situation, I
assumed that the OP has started the engine and the fastener has undergone at
lease one heat-up and cool-down cycle, so the torque needed to move the
fastener is not really an indication of how much it was tightened although
he could tell if it was tightened to at least 36 foot pounds if a torque
wrench set to that figure doesn't move the fastener.
All that said, I would not bother to use a torque wrench in that situation
and just install the plug, but if someone did not have a good feel for how
tight to fasten a drain plug, then a torque wrench might be a good idea.
Ray O
"ransley" <Mark_R...@Yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:d6d99268-dfd9-4ac3...@x3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
*****************
The transmission fluid pan is only a reservoir and is not pressurized, so
the additional pressure on the transmission pan gasket is only from any
additional oil, which in the case of 1/4 quart would be negligible. The
parts of an automatic transmission that are "submerged" need ATF to
lubricate, develop line pressure, or otherwise function and get their ATF
because the transmission pump picks up the needed amount of fluid from the
reservoir and circulates it throughout the transmission.
HLS
"Ray O" <roki...@NOSPAMtristarassociates.com> wrote in message
news:h2l8e5$b8r$2...@news.eternal-
> The transmission fluid pan is only a reservoir and is not pressurized, so
> the additional pressure on the transmission pan gasket is only from any
> additional oil, which in the case of 1/4 quart would be negligible. The
> parts of an automatic transmission that are "submerged" need ATF to
> lubricate, develop line pressure, or otherwise function and get their ATF
> because the transmission pump picks up the needed amount of fluid from the
> reservoir and circulates it throughout the transmission.
>
> --
>
> Ray O
I mostly agree.. A quarter of a quart would not raise the level in the
pan/tranny much at all.
I dont think it would be any problem at that level.
> (correct punctuation to reply)
>
Toyota MDT in MO
How will it "put less pressure on seals" if the level is reduced 1/2
quart to normal?
How does one go about remembering the differential on a U240E? Any
extra steps you might want to share with the OP?
--
Toyota MDT in MO
dsi1
Thanks for the clarification, I tend to get confused a lot! :-)
john
ATF works better than the conventional (dino) version called
Mobil-3309 (Toyota T-IV).
You can get these hex sockets. For just one go to your local parts
store or Sears.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=98229
But if you're using a small hex wrench like this, the problem may be
under torque. And sounds like you've experience some of that.
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94597
john
socket. However, I've never tried to hack saw one before.
Harbor Freight is fast and convenient, and when on sale, cheap too. :)
john
be used by hand. You can't adapt it to a ratchet or torque wrench
unless you saw it off like MCL wrote. A hex socket (#2 below) can be
used with a ratchet or a torque wrench and you can set the torque
needed on the torque wrench (#3 below).
However, in most cases, without much effort, you can achieve about
25-30 lb/ft easily with a standard length 3/8" ratchet (#4 below). So
I doubt most people here even use a torque wrench for drain bolts, but
it's a good idea especially on aluminum threads.
1. Allen wrench, or hex wrench:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94597
2. Hex socket:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=98229
3. A 3/8"-drive torque wrench:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=807
4. Some 3/8"-drive "standard length" ratchets:
http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=40591
http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00943175000P?keyword=43175&sLevel=0
HLS
> Allen wrenches (#1 below), or hex wrenches, as pictured, is meant to
> be used by hand. You can't adapt it to a ratchet or torque wrench
> unless you saw it off like MCL wrote. A hex socket (#2 below) can be
> used with a ratchet or a torque wrench and you can set the torque
> needed on the torque wrench (#3 below).
>
> However, in most cases, without much effort, you can achieve about
> 25-30 lb/ft easily with a standard length 3/8" ratchet (#4 below). So
> I doubt most people here even use a torque wrench for drain bolts, but
> it's a good idea especially on aluminum threads.
>
> 1. Allen wrench, or hex wrench:http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=94597
>
> 2. Hex socket:http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=98229
>
> 3. A 3/8"-drive torque wrench:http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=807
>
>
> On Jul 2, 11:07 pm, dsi1 <d...@spamnet.com> wrote:
>
> > Why would you not be able to measure the torque of an allen wrench
> > socket? Why even use a torque wrench?
Oh, horseshit! You can waste your time homebrewing an allen male on a
socket, or spend a couple of bucks and buy one at any FLAPS.
This is ridiculous.
Bret
Use a nut and a socket.
Built_Well
==========
The reason I think I may have partially stripped the threads of the
transmission pan when I tightened the drain plug bolt with an
unmeasured Allen wrench is the ease with which the wrench turned
during my third and final tug on it.
I actually stopped tightening after the first tug, but the
drain plug was leaking 15 minutes later when I checked it. So then
I may have overdone it with a third tug or twist of the Allen wrench.
It seemed like that third and last tightening was a bit too easy
compared to the first two. That's why I think I may have partially
stripped the threads.
No leaking is happening 2 days later, but what course of action
should I take now if, indeed, the threads are partially stripped?
For example, to save the threads, should I completely untighten the
drain plug bolt as soon as possible, and re-tighten? If so, I'll just
commit to doing another drain and fill to bring the Mobil 1 Synthetic
ATF to 75 percent of total fill (right now the fill is a 50/50 mix of
Mobil 1 and T-IV ATF). Or should I just leave well enough alone, and
not untighten the bolt? Will the threads survive for years if they're
partially stripped?
Also, is it possible that the easy turning effect I felt during
the third twist of the Allen wrench may not have
been caused by a partial stripping of the threads, but instead by
a slight compression of the new metal gasket (or crush washer)
that I inserted between the drain plug bolt and the trans pan?
In this case, if it was the metal gasket/crush washer that caused
the easy turning of the wrench during the third final turn, can
I be reasonably safe in thinking that the pan's threads are
not stripped after all? And call it a day? Thanks :-)
Toyota MDT in MO
The pan and plug threads are OK, but if you got that "too easy" give
feeling on the third pull then you probably distorted the gasket. If so
you should consider replacing the drain plug crush washer again. It
should have been replaced during the original drain/fill job. You
mentioned "new gasket" once, but I'm curious where you got it. The
easiest place to get the proper one is at the Toyota dealer. Part
number is 35178-30010 and current list price is $2.17. You can buy
proper aluminum crush washers much cheaper in bulk, and perhaps you can
find a small cheap assortment of correct diameter, crappy, too-thin
copper washers at a parts store, but as a DIYer, for <$3 I'd suggest you
just use the OE gasket and forget about it. Then get a cheap 3/8" beam
torque wrench at the very least, and torque it to specs.
Fun facts: the washer gets distorted the first time it is installed, and
sometimes it will not seal again. They can be reused, but every once in
a while they will leak. You can note the uneven mating pattern of a
used washer that shouldn't be reused, and in extreme cases they will
become slightly oval. That loosening feeling you experienced is when it
distorted further on your third pull, and is a good sign that it was
overtorqued and ovaled. These reused gaskets will seal more times than
not, leaving one with a false sense of security that one can tighten
them any which way and reuse them indefinitely. Better to play it safe
than to have an expensive comeback in my book.
Built_Well
>> ==========
>
> The pan and plug threads are OK, but if you got that "too easy" give
> feeling on the third pull then you probably distorted the gasket. If so
> you should consider replacing the drain plug crush washer again. It
> should have been replaced during the original drain/fill job. You
> mentioned "new gasket" once, but I'm curious where you got it. The
> easiest place to get the proper one is at the Toyota dealer. Part number
> is 35178-30010 and current list price is $2.17. You can buy proper
> aluminum crush washers much cheaper in bulk, and perhaps you can find a
> small cheap assortment of correct diameter, crappy, too-thin copper
> washers at a parts store, but as a DIYer, for <$3 I'd suggest you just use
> the OE gasket and forget about it. Then get a cheap 3/8" beam torque
> wrench at the very least, and torque it to specs.
>
> Fun facts: the washer gets distorted the first time it is installed, and
> sometimes it will not seal again. They can be reused, but every once in a
> while they will leak. You can note the uneven mating pattern of a used
> washer that shouldn't be reused, and in extreme cases they will become
> slightly oval. That loosening feeling you experienced is when it distorted
> further on your third pull, and is a good sign that it was overtorqued and
> ovaled. These reused gaskets will seal more times than not, leaving one
> with a false sense of security that one can tighten them any which way and
> reuse them indefinitely. Better to play it safe than to have an expensive
> comeback in my book.
==========
Thank you Toyota MDT :-) It's good to know that I probably didn't strip
any threads.
I got the metal gasket / crush washer from the Toyota dealership for $2.24
before tax. For some reason, their invoice/receipt shows a different part
number, though: 90430-18008.
Since you think the threads are okay, I'll probably wait a while before
doing another drain and refill--maybe wait until 50,000 miles. Thursday's
drain and fill was done at 25,000 miles and 3.5 years. I will keep an
eye on the ATF dipstick to guard against any leaks (so far so good). Just
curious: if a leak does eventually happen and I don't detect it in time,
will a dashboard warning light come on? If so, which one? (Those ATF
dipsticks are notoriously hard to read, aren't they.)
Would anyone know if the ATF pan, painted black, is made of aluminum like
the metal gasket / crush washer is made of aluminum?
Also, in 3.5 years when I do a second ATF drain and refill, would my
Sears Craftsman 1/2-inch torque wrench work well enough to torque the
ATF drain plug to 36 foot-pounds (I guess I can get a 1/2" to 3/8"
adapter if the hex/Allen socket is fitted for a 3/8" wrench instead of
a 1/2" wrench).
And wouldn't the proper torque of 36 foot-pounds safely fall outside the
10 or 20 percent range of the wrench's capacity of 150 foot-pounds for
plus or minus 4 percent clockwise torquing accuracy.
On the other hand, the wrench's instruction guide does say that at low
foot-pound numbers, the wrench is barely audible when it clicks, and
may even not click at low numbers, in which case I might be better off
using a beam type torque wrench.
Toyota MDT in MO
They charged you more than list for that part, but thanks for posting it
- it lists cheaper than my suggested part number. I'm just used to what
local dealers stock (or at least bill out) around here.
> Since you think the threads are okay, I'll probably wait a while before
> doing another drain and refill--maybe wait until 50,000 miles. Thursday's
> drain and fill was done at 25,000 miles and 3.5 years. I will keep an
> eye on the ATF dipstick to guard against any leaks (so far so good). Just
> curious: if a leak does eventually happen and I don't detect it in time,
> will a dashboard warning light come on?
Not directly.
> If so, which one?
If a dash light comes on as an indirect result of running out of trans
fluid, you will already be too boned to worry about which light it is.
> (Those ATF
> dipsticks are notoriously hard to read, aren't they.)
>
No.
> Would anyone know if the ATF pan, painted black, is made of aluminum like
> the metal gasket / crush washer is made of aluminum?
>
>
Steel.
> Also, in 3.5 years when I do a second ATF drain and refill, would my
> Sears Craftsman 1/2-inch torque wrench work well enough to torque the
> ATF drain plug to 36 foot-pounds (I guess I can get a 1/2" to 3/8"
> adapter if the hex/Allen socket is fitted for a 3/8" wrench instead of
> a 1/2" wrench).
> And wouldn't the proper torque of 36 foot-pounds safely fall outside the 10 or 20 percent range of the wrench's capacity of 150 foot-pounds for
> plus or minus 4 percent clockwise torquing accuracy.
>
>
Not necessarily. What is the tool's part number?
> On the other hand, the wrench's instruction guide does say that at low
> foot-pound numbers, the wrench is barely audible when it clicks, and
> may even not click at low numbers, in which case I might be better off
> using a beam type torque wrench.
>
Hence my previous suggestion. Even a cheap beam will be fairly accurate
in general. *http://tinyurl.com/qnrt9c*