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U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light vehicles
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C. E. White
Apr 12, 2012, 4:25:13 PM4/12/12
to
U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light vehicles
Christina Rogers
Automotive News -- April 12, 2012 - 12:28 pm ET
UPDATED: 4/12/12 4:09 pm ET
U.S. regulators today proposed a requirement that light vehicles have an
override mechanism that enables a driver to stop a car or truck if the
accelerator pedal gets stuck.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said it was proposing the
brake-throttle override rule because research showed it can reduce the risk
of high-speed unintended acceleration and prevent crashes.
The override technology, which many automakers already make available,
enables drivers to stop a vehicle if the brake and accelerator are depressed
at the same time.
NHTSA will hold a 60-day public comment period once the proposal is
published in the Federal Register. After the public comment period, NHTSA
will review the proposal before it finalizes the requirement.
The federal agency didn't offer an estimate on how much it would cost
manufacturers to add the technology, only saying it could be done "without
significant difficulty or cost."
"America's drivers should feel confident that anytime they get behind the
wheel they can easily maintain control of their vehicles -- especially in
the event of an emergency," U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said in
a statement.
"By updating our safety standards, we're helping give drivers peace of mind
that their brakes will work even if the gas pedal is stuck down while the
driver is trying to brake."
The proposal comes in the wake of 2009 and 2010 recalls by Toyota Motor
Corp. for problems related to unintended acceleration. The automaker ended
up recalling millions of Toyota and Lexus vehicles worldwide and paying
fines of $48.8 million for failing to order the recall in a timely manner.
A 10-month investigation by NASA and NHTSA into the matter found no
electronic defect in Toyota models. The agencies blamed the incidents on
pedals that got stuck or caught under floor mats.
Since the Toyota recall, regulators have become more aggressive about
addressing the issue. NHTSA has been exploring a brake-throttle override
system mandate since 2010.
Thousands of reports
NHTSA officials did not mention the Toyota recall in a statement today about
the proposed requirement. But in the rule's proposal, the agency notes that
it received "thousands" of reports of unattended acceleration over a 10-year
period starting in January 2000.
Said NHTSA administrator David Strickland: "We learned as part of the
comprehensive NASA and NHTSA studies of high-speed unintended acceleration
that brake override systems could help drivers avoid crashes."
The technology works by cutting power to the engine when the brake and
accelerator pedals are pressed.
NHTSA, by ordering all vehicles be equipped with the systems, said it aims
to reduce the risk of drivers losing control if accelerator electronics fail
or the pedal gets stuck or trapped by the floor mat.
Toyota has made brake-override systems standard on all models beginning with
the 2011 model year. Other automakers such as Chrysler Group, Ford Motor
Co., General Motors, Hyundai Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co. also offer
override mechanism on some or all of their models.
The Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers said it has supported the
brake-override standard since 2010, when the rule was first proposed.
The alliance, which represents 12 automakers, including the Detroit 3, said
it's still reviewing NHTSA's proposal and expects to offer input during the
public comment period.
Rigorous standard
Clarence Ditlow, executive director for the Center for Auto Safety in
Washingtoncq, said the Toyota recall helped cast a spotlight on the dangers
of unintended acceleration. His group has been pushing for the regulation
since the advent of electronic throttle controls.
NHTSA's success will largely depend on "how rigorous the standard is,"
Ditlow said.
A simple software fix won't always suffice, he added, since it will only
upgrade the vehicle's existing electronic control unit. If that unit is
already compromised, it won't help.
Rather, Ditlow said carmakers should consider installing a second control
unit, one separate from the main electronic controls, to monitor pedal
activity.
NHTSA's proposal doesn't specify how carmakers should design their override
systems, only that they pass certain performance tests.
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20120412/OEM11/120419954
Christina Rogers
Automotive News -- April 12, 2012 - 12:28 pm ET
UPDATED: 4/12/12 4:09 pm ET
U.S. regulators today proposed a requirement that light vehicles have an
override mechanism that enables a driver to stop a car or truck if the
accelerator pedal gets stuck.
The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said it was proposing the
brake-throttle override rule because research showed it can reduce the risk
of high-speed unintended acceleration and prevent crashes.
The override technology, which many automakers already make available,
enables drivers to stop a vehicle if the brake and accelerator are depressed
at the same time.
NHTSA will hold a 60-day public comment period once the proposal is
published in the Federal Register. After the public comment period, NHTSA
will review the proposal before it finalizes the requirement.
The federal agency didn't offer an estimate on how much it would cost
manufacturers to add the technology, only saying it could be done "without
significant difficulty or cost."
"America's drivers should feel confident that anytime they get behind the
wheel they can easily maintain control of their vehicles -- especially in
the event of an emergency," U.S. Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood said in
a statement.
"By updating our safety standards, we're helping give drivers peace of mind
that their brakes will work even if the gas pedal is stuck down while the
driver is trying to brake."
The proposal comes in the wake of 2009 and 2010 recalls by Toyota Motor
Corp. for problems related to unintended acceleration. The automaker ended
up recalling millions of Toyota and Lexus vehicles worldwide and paying
fines of $48.8 million for failing to order the recall in a timely manner.
A 10-month investigation by NASA and NHTSA into the matter found no
electronic defect in Toyota models. The agencies blamed the incidents on
pedals that got stuck or caught under floor mats.
Since the Toyota recall, regulators have become more aggressive about
addressing the issue. NHTSA has been exploring a brake-throttle override
system mandate since 2010.
Thousands of reports
NHTSA officials did not mention the Toyota recall in a statement today about
the proposed requirement. But in the rule's proposal, the agency notes that
it received "thousands" of reports of unattended acceleration over a 10-year
period starting in January 2000.
Said NHTSA administrator David Strickland: "We learned as part of the
comprehensive NASA and NHTSA studies of high-speed unintended acceleration
that brake override systems could help drivers avoid crashes."
The technology works by cutting power to the engine when the brake and
accelerator pedals are pressed.
NHTSA, by ordering all vehicles be equipped with the systems, said it aims
to reduce the risk of drivers losing control if accelerator electronics fail
or the pedal gets stuck or trapped by the floor mat.
Toyota has made brake-override systems standard on all models beginning with
the 2011 model year. Other automakers such as Chrysler Group, Ford Motor
Co., General Motors, Hyundai Motor Co. and Nissan Motor Co. also offer
override mechanism on some or all of their models.
The Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers said it has supported the
brake-override standard since 2010, when the rule was first proposed.
The alliance, which represents 12 automakers, including the Detroit 3, said
it's still reviewing NHTSA's proposal and expects to offer input during the
public comment period.
Rigorous standard
Clarence Ditlow, executive director for the Center for Auto Safety in
Washingtoncq, said the Toyota recall helped cast a spotlight on the dangers
of unintended acceleration. His group has been pushing for the regulation
since the advent of electronic throttle controls.
NHTSA's success will largely depend on "how rigorous the standard is,"
Ditlow said.
A simple software fix won't always suffice, he added, since it will only
upgrade the vehicle's existing electronic control unit. If that unit is
already compromised, it won't help.
Rather, Ditlow said carmakers should consider installing a second control
unit, one separate from the main electronic controls, to monitor pedal
activity.
NHTSA's proposal doesn't specify how carmakers should design their override
systems, only that they pass certain performance tests.
Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20120412/OEM11/120419954
C. E. White
Apr 12, 2012, 4:26:24 PM4/12/12
to
"C. E. White" <cewh...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:jm7dpn$e5u$1...@dont-email.me...
> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light
> vehicles
I suppose the ignition switch isn't override enough.....
> vehicles
Ed
Arif Khokar
Apr 12, 2012, 9:05:07 PM4/12/12
to
On 4/12/2012 4:25 PM, C. E. White wrote:
> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light vehicles
>
> Christina Rogers
>
> Automotive News -- April 12, 2012 - 12:28 pm ET
> UPDATED: 4/12/12 4:09 pm ET
> Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20120412/OEM11/120419954
> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light vehicles
>
> Christina Rogers
>
> Automotive News -- April 12, 2012 - 12:28 pm ET
> UPDATED: 4/12/12 4:09 pm ET
Perhaps they should mandate manual transmissions instead. That inherent
clutch override should work perfectly.
Scott Dorsey
Apr 12, 2012, 9:10:20 PM4/12/12
to
C. E. White <cewh...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>The override technology, which many automakers already make available,
>enables drivers to stop a vehicle if the brake and accelerator are depressed
>at the same time.
My car has a device called an "ignition switch" that does this. If that
>The override technology, which many automakers already make available,
>enables drivers to stop a vehicle if the brake and accelerator are depressed
>at the same time.
fails there is a "clutch pedal" which can be depressed to decouple the
engine from the wheels. I advocate these new technologies be adopted by
all car manufacturers.
In addition, I suggest a device called a "seat belt" which will prevent
drivers and passengers from being thrown forward in case of an accident,
and I am currently applying for a patent on a device called a "windshield
wiper" which may make it possible for the driver to see even in the rain.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."
gregz
Apr 12, 2012, 9:51:01 PM4/12/12
to
stopped.
Greg
Noone
Apr 12, 2012, 10:09:32 PM4/12/12
to
"gregz" <ze...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1418472595355970595.8...@news.eternal-september.org...
I've always heard that the simultaneous application of brake
and throttle are also useful in equalizing traction to driven
wheels in mud and snow, lessening turbo lag and loading the
chassis for handling purposes. If true, I hope those assists
are taken away.
news:1418472595355970595.8...@news.eternal-september.org...
and throttle are also useful in equalizing traction to driven
wheels in mud and snow, lessening turbo lag and loading the
chassis for handling purposes. If true, I hope those assists
are taken away.
jim beam
Apr 12, 2012, 10:26:40 PM4/12/12
to
this "feature". pretty freakin' retarded though if you ask me.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
jim beam
Apr 12, 2012, 10:28:46 PM4/12/12
to
what they're talking about. it's ridiculously ill-considered and
misconceived.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
jim beam
Apr 12, 2012, 10:53:21 PM4/12/12
to
On 04/12/2012 06:10 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> C. E. White<cewh...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> The override technology, which many automakers already make available,
>> enables drivers to stop a vehicle if the brake and accelerator are depressed
>> at the same time.
>
> My car has a device called an "ignition switch" that does this. If that
> fails there is a "clutch pedal" which can be depressed to decouple the
> engine from the wheels. I advocate these new technologies be adopted by
> all car manufacturers.
heh, true.
> C. E. White<cewh...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> The override technology, which many automakers already make available,
>> enables drivers to stop a vehicle if the brake and accelerator are depressed
>> at the same time.
>
> My car has a device called an "ignition switch" that does this. If that
> fails there is a "clutch pedal" which can be depressed to decouple the
> engine from the wheels. I advocate these new technologies be adopted by
> all car manufacturers.
but for fly-by-wire automatics, if you're actually prepared to accept
the bizarre pretzel logic premise that a driver isn't ultimately
responsible for knowing which pedal is which, and you're the member of a
politically appointed committee trying to justify your existence, then
you have to come up with some ideas. the big red button on the dash
labeled "emergency engine cutoff" [like you get on diesels] has probably
been run by people like frod and gotten killed on the basis that it'll
cost them an extra 20 cents per vehicle. [that's someone's $200,000
bonus on a million vehicle production run!] much more likely, this
retardation is the compromise between the political committee's desire
to be seen to be "doing something" and the manufacturer's unwillingness
to spend more on hardware and agreement to implement in software, which
costs them nothing.
>
> In addition, I suggest a device called a "seat belt" which will prevent
> drivers and passengers from being thrown forward in case of an accident,
that aren't sufficiently darwin-aware will still survive to pollute the
gene pool even if they don't wear your patented "seat belt".
> and I am currently applying for a patent on a device called a "windshield
> wiper" which may make it possible for the driver to see even in the rain.
time - something that seems fucking impossible to get kalifornistan
drivers to do on their own.
> --scott
>
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
jim beam
Apr 12, 2012, 11:02:40 PM4/12/12
to
political agenda, not an engineering agenda.
and as for safety, the "safe option" is to have everyone restricted to
30mph and wrapped in styrofoam. personal responsibility for "ability to
drive" and "knowing which pedal does what" doesn't apparently enter into it.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
AD
Apr 13, 2012, 6:45:08 AM4/13/12
to
On Apr 13, 5:28 am, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> On 04/12/2012 07:09 PM, Noone wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "gregz"<ze...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >news:1418472595355970595.8...@news.eternal-september.org...
> >> "C. E. White"<cewhi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> On 04/12/2012 07:09 PM, Noone wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > "gregz"<ze...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> >news:1418472595355970595.8...@news.eternal-september.org...
> >>> "C. E. White"<cewhi...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:jm7dpn$e5u$1...@dont-email.me...
> >>>> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light
> >>>> vehicles
>
> >>> I suppose the ignition switch isn't override enough.....
>
> >>> Ed
>
> >> I've used brake and throttle to keep a vehicle from stalling out when
> >> stopped.
>
> >> Greg
>
> > I've always heard that the simultaneous application of brake
> > and throttle are also useful in equalizing traction to driven
> > wheels in mud and snow, lessening turbo lag and loading the
> > chassis for handling purposes. If true, I hope those assists
> > are taken away.
>
> the doofuses that are mandating this stuff can't drive and don't know
> what they're talking about. it's ridiculously ill-considered and
> misconceived.
>
for once we agree on something
> >>>> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light
> >>>> vehicles
>
> >>> I suppose the ignition switch isn't override enough.....
>
> >>> Ed
>
> >> I've used brake and throttle to keep a vehicle from stalling out when
> >> stopped.
>
> >> Greg
>
> > I've always heard that the simultaneous application of brake
> > and throttle are also useful in equalizing traction to driven
> > wheels in mud and snow, lessening turbo lag and loading the
> > chassis for handling purposes. If true, I hope those assists
> > are taken away.
>
> the doofuses that are mandating this stuff can't drive and don't know
> what they're talking about. it's ridiculously ill-considered and
> misconceived.
>
apparently the idiots never noticed the lever right next to the
driver's chair
(a pedal on the left side in the dumbed down versions)
AD
Apr 13, 2012, 6:46:21 AM4/13/12
to
AD
Apr 13, 2012, 6:48:27 AM4/13/12
to
> and I am currently applying for a patent on a device called a "windshield
> wiper" which may make it possible for the driver to see even in the rain.
ago in between the
bidet sketching
N8N
Apr 13, 2012, 9:42:57 AM4/13/12
to
On Apr 12, 4:25 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light vehicles
<snip>
> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light vehicles
seems to me I remember that there may be some situations in which
being able to apply power and brake simultaneously was desirable...
just more proof that the people that think this crap up aren't real
"drivers" just "operators."
nate
Jim Yanik
Apr 13, 2012, 10:40:33 AM4/13/12
to
klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote in
news:jm7uds$560$1...@panix2.panix.com:
IMO,automatic transmissions are responsible for most if not all of the
"unintended accelleration" incidents,and restricting automatics to
handicapped physically incapable of operating a stick would also get most
of the lousy drivers off the roads.
they would be too incompetent to drive with a stickshift tranny.
Further,it would keep their minds and hands too busy for cellphone and
makeup distractions.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
news:jm7uds$560$1...@panix2.panix.com:
"unintended accelleration" incidents,and restricting automatics to
handicapped physically incapable of operating a stick would also get most
of the lousy drivers off the roads.
they would be too incompetent to drive with a stickshift tranny.
Further,it would keep their minds and hands too busy for cellphone and
makeup distractions.
--
Jim Yanik
jyanik
at
localnet
dot com
Harry K
Apr 13, 2012, 10:57:04 AM4/13/12
to
went to pull out and found I was on a wet spot. One wheel spinning.
Light application of brake got the other one going. Either the old PU
never had limited slip or it isn't working.
Harry K
jim beam
Apr 13, 2012, 11:02:44 AM4/13/12
to
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YdhGmL5uD_k>
observe: the proper simultaneous application of throttle and brake...
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
Harry K
Apr 13, 2012, 10:59:45 AM4/13/12
to
On Apr 12, 6:10 pm, klu...@panix.com (Scott Dorsey) wrote:
Yep. A big, red button on the dash will not cure the sudden charge
over the curb to park in the store things. It happens too fast for
the driver to react to it.
As we all know, most 'stuck throttle' reports are purest BS.
Harry K
over the curb to park in the store things. It happens too fast for
the driver to react to it.
As we all know, most 'stuck throttle' reports are purest BS.
Harry K
N8N
Apr 13, 2012, 11:24:19 AM4/13/12
to
you have LS, if one wheel is on a glass-smooth surface, the traction
difference may be too much for it to work. I was actually thinking of
trail braking...
Of course, there's always the fact that we're likely going to have
traction/stability control made mandatory as well, which in the grand
scheme of things, if it's well programmed, may actually be a positive,
although I still remember driving a BMW X5 years ago on a snow covered
test track and trying to spin a quick U-turn and the traction control
wouldn't let me do it - I made a perfectly-controlled, slip-free turn
into a snowbank, as the TC rattled and hummed and slowly brought the
vehicle to a stop. W/O traction/stability control, the rear end would
have kicked out, I'd have ended up pointing the way I wanted to go,
and continued merrily on my way.
nate
Steve Daniels
Apr 13, 2012, 11:59:43 AM4/13/12
to
On Fri, 13 Apr 2012 08:24:19 -0700 (PDT), against all advice,
something compelled N8N <njn...@hotmail.com>, to say:
>Of course, there's always the fact that we're likely going to have
>traction/stability control made mandatory as well, which in the grand
>scheme of things, if it's well programmed, may actually be a positive,
>although I still remember driving a BMW X5 years ago on a snow covered
>test track and trying to spin a quick U-turn and the traction control
>wouldn't let me do it - I made a perfectly-controlled, slip-free turn
>into a snowbank, as the TC rattled and hummed and slowly brought the
>vehicle to a stop. W/O traction/stability control, the rear end would
>have kicked out, I'd have ended up pointing the way I wanted to go,
>and continued merrily on my way.
When it gets snowy around here, I turn the electronic stability
off. It leaves me with the Quattro and the anti lock brakes, but
the car doesn't go nuts trying to keep me pointed in a straight
line.
--
I believe a self-righteous liberal or conservative with a cause
is more dangerous than a Hell's Angel with an attitude.
Andy Rooney
something compelled N8N <njn...@hotmail.com>, to say:
>Of course, there's always the fact that we're likely going to have
>traction/stability control made mandatory as well, which in the grand
>scheme of things, if it's well programmed, may actually be a positive,
>although I still remember driving a BMW X5 years ago on a snow covered
>test track and trying to spin a quick U-turn and the traction control
>wouldn't let me do it - I made a perfectly-controlled, slip-free turn
>into a snowbank, as the TC rattled and hummed and slowly brought the
>vehicle to a stop. W/O traction/stability control, the rear end would
>have kicked out, I'd have ended up pointing the way I wanted to go,
>and continued merrily on my way.
off. It leaves me with the Quattro and the anti lock brakes, but
the car doesn't go nuts trying to keep me pointed in a straight
line.
--
I believe a self-righteous liberal or conservative with a cause
is more dangerous than a Hell's Angel with an attitude.
Andy Rooney
Noone
Apr 13, 2012, 12:20:55 PM4/13/12
to
"N8N" <njn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:c50b84da-4cb1-4dd8...@h5g2000vbx.googlegroups.com...
##################################
Is there an echo in here? It's like deja-vu, all over again.
news:c50b84da-4cb1-4dd8...@h5g2000vbx.googlegroups.com...
Is there an echo in here? It's like deja-vu, all over again.
Noone
Apr 13, 2012, 12:23:04 PM4/13/12
to
"Steve Daniels" <sdan...@gorge.net> wrote in message
news:f6jgo7tp6tpk5uo00...@4ax.com...
Which is why that I, for one, am glad that Rooney is gone.
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the
unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world
to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the
unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw
news:f6jgo7tp6tpk5uo00...@4ax.com...
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the
unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world
to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the
unreasonable man." - George Bernard Shaw
gpsman
Apr 13, 2012, 1:44:59 PM4/13/12
to
On Apr 13, 9:42 am, N8N <njna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> seems to me I remember that there may be some situations in which
> being able to apply power and brake simultaneously was desirable...
Penetrating analysis, from the guy who remembers he received a
>
> seems to me I remember that there may be some situations in which
> being able to apply power and brake simultaneously was desirable...
"complete vision exam" in 15 seconds from a DMV clerk.
> just more proof that the people that think this crap up aren't real
> "drivers" just "operators."
they have concluded the average "motorist" isn't a "driver", and isn't
worth a shit when they are jolted awake under pressure.
I don't have any idea how you may have concluded you're any judge of
"drivers" or "driving" with your fistfuls of tickets...
-----
- gpsman
jim
Apr 13, 2012, 6:13:06 PM4/13/12
to
jim beam wrote:
> and as for safety, the "safe option" is to have everyone restricted to
> 30mph and wrapped in styrofoam. personal responsibility for "ability to
> drive" and "knowing which pedal does what" doesn't apparently enter into it.
someone is stepping on the wrong pedal?
tom thumb
Apr 13, 2012, 9:14:00 PM4/13/12
to
yank it real hard!
jim beam
Apr 13, 2012, 9:16:21 PM4/13/12
to
On 04/13/2012 06:14 PM, tom thumb wrote:
<brevity>
bring in a new lot with a strict 4 year term limit.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
<brevity>
>>
> Where's the Regulators' Override Switch? We need to tell Congress to
> yank it real hard!
no, we need to yank the override switch on congress. throw them out and
> Where's the Regulators' Override Switch? We need to tell Congress to
> yank it real hard!
bring in a new lot with a strict 4 year term limit.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
Apr 13, 2012, 10:20:48 PM4/13/12
to
> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light
> vehicles
>
> Christina Rogers
>
> Automotive News -- April 12, 2012 - 12:28 pm ET
> UPDATED: 4/12/12 4:09 pm ET
>
> U.S. regulators today proposed a requirement that light vehicles have an
> override mechanism that enables a driver to stop a car or truck if the
> accelerator pedal gets stuck.
> The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said it was proposing
> the brake-throttle override rule because research showed it can reduce the
> risk of high-speed unintended acceleration and prevent crashes.
>
[snip...]
> vehicles
>
> Christina Rogers
>
> Automotive News -- April 12, 2012 - 12:28 pm ET
> UPDATED: 4/12/12 4:09 pm ET
>
> U.S. regulators today proposed a requirement that light vehicles have an
> override mechanism that enables a driver to stop a car or truck if the
> accelerator pedal gets stuck.
> The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said it was proposing
> the brake-throttle override rule because research showed it can reduce the
> risk of high-speed unintended acceleration and prevent crashes.
>
This only makes sense. Consider that brakes will override full throttle when
both pedals are fully pressed down at a STANDSTILL.
But what about moving? Well that's where brake pad fade, possibly overheated
rotors, and even brake fluid boiling can occur if the vehicle is constantly
accelerating at highway speeds or greater. Right? And there were reports of
the Lexus fatal accident in the San Diego area had witnesses reporting brake
rotors glowing red as if they were on fire. Some news reports state the
brakes were on fire.
Link to one such story:
Deadly car crash triggers questions about car safety - KSWB
www.fox5sandiego.com/news/kswb-car-problems,0,2732751.story
Folks, this isn't nanny state stuff. Computer controlled cars with
electronic components should not be runaway machines. There should always be
an override even if it's a big red manual press plunger that
mechanically--not electrically--cuts power.
Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
Apr 13, 2012, 10:52:47 PM4/13/12
to
"Noone" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:jm9jpf$348$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
Except that most passenger cars are not intended for "performance driving".
Plus, the override would only occur at full throttle acceleration and
braking, so what specific situation demands full throttle accleration and
braking on main thoroughfare roads and highways, not test tracks?
news:jm9jpf$348$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
Plus, the override would only occur at full throttle acceleration and
braking, so what specific situation demands full throttle accleration and
braking on main thoroughfare roads and highways, not test tracks?
jim beam
Apr 13, 2012, 11:05:55 PM4/13/12
to
On 04/13/2012 07:52 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
> "Noone" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:jm9jpf$348$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>> "N8N" <njn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:c50b84da-4cb1-4dd8...@h5g2000vbx.googlegroups.com...
>> On Apr 12, 4:25 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light
>>> vehicles
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> seems to me I remember that there may be some situations in which
>> being able to apply power and brake simultaneously was desirable...
>> just more proof that the people that think this crap up aren't real
>> "drivers" just "operators."
>>
>> nate
>> ##################################
>>
>> Is there an echo in here? It's like deja-vu, all over again.
> Except that most passenger cars are not intended for "performance driving".
holding a car on a hill is not "performance driving". i don't know
> "Noone" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> news:jm9jpf$348$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>> "N8N" <njn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:c50b84da-4cb1-4dd8...@h5g2000vbx.googlegroups.com...
>> On Apr 12, 4:25 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light
>>> vehicles
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> seems to me I remember that there may be some situations in which
>> being able to apply power and brake simultaneously was desirable...
>> just more proof that the people that think this crap up aren't real
>> "drivers" just "operators."
>>
>> nate
>> ##################################
>>
>> Is there an echo in here? It's like deja-vu, all over again.
> Except that most passenger cars are not intended for "performance driving".
where you're from, but hereabouts, driver's ed teaches you to left foot
brake and apply right foot gas when pulling away on a hill. [indeed,
that's why the brake pedal is wide enough for two feet on automatics -
in case you hadn't noticed.] kinda hard to do with the stooooopidity
envisaged above.
>
> Plus, the override would only occur at full throttle acceleration and
> braking, so what specific situation demands full throttle accleration
> and braking on main thoroughfare roads and highways, not test tracks?
position. absolutely no way.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
jim beam
Apr 13, 2012, 11:16:34 PM4/13/12
to
On 04/13/2012 07:20 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
> "C. E. White" <cewh...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:jm7dpn$e5u$1...@dont-email.me...
>> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light
>> vehicles
>>
>> Christina Rogers
>>
>> Automotive News -- April 12, 2012 - 12:28 pm ET
>> UPDATED: 4/12/12 4:09 pm ET
>>
>> U.S. regulators today proposed a requirement that light vehicles have
>> an override mechanism that enables a driver to stop a car or truck if
>> the accelerator pedal gets stuck.
>> The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said it was
>> proposing the brake-throttle override rule because research showed it
>> can reduce the risk of high-speed unintended acceleration and prevent
>> crashes.
>>
> [snip...]
>
> This only makes sense. Consider that brakes will override full throttle
> when both pedals are fully pressed down at a STANDSTILL.
>
> But what about moving? Well that's where brake pad fade, possibly
> overheated rotors, and even brake fluid boiling can occur if the vehicle
> is constantly accelerating at highway speeds or greater. Right?
absolutely not. brakes easily outperform the engine on almost any car,
> "C. E. White" <cewh...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> news:jm7dpn$e5u$1...@dont-email.me...
>> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light
>> vehicles
>>
>> Christina Rogers
>>
>> Automotive News -- April 12, 2012 - 12:28 pm ET
>> UPDATED: 4/12/12 4:09 pm ET
>>
>> U.S. regulators today proposed a requirement that light vehicles have
>> an override mechanism that enables a driver to stop a car or truck if
>> the accelerator pedal gets stuck.
>> The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said it was
>> proposing the brake-throttle override rule because research showed it
>> can reduce the risk of high-speed unintended acceleration and prevent
>> crashes.
>>
> [snip...]
>
> This only makes sense. Consider that brakes will override full throttle
> when both pedals are fully pressed down at a STANDSTILL.
>
> But what about moving? Well that's where brake pad fade, possibly
> overheated rotors, and even brake fluid boiling can occur if the vehicle
> is constantly accelerating at highway speeds or greater. Right?
and /definitely/ on any car post about 1950.
> And
> there were reports of the Lexus fatal accident in the San Diego area had
> witnesses reporting brake rotors glowing red as if they were on fire.
> Some news reports state the brakes were on fire.
>
> Link to one such story:
>
> Deadly car crash triggers questions about car safety - KSWB
> www.fox5sandiego.com/news/kswb-car-problems,0,2732751.story
years? that "story" has been analyzed by the nhtsa no less, and they
find no evidence of vehicle fault, only driver fault.
>
> Folks, this isn't nanny state stuff. Computer controlled cars with
> electronic components should not be runaway machines. There should
> always be an override even if it's a big red manual press plunger that
> mechanically--not electrically--cuts power.
1. the brake pedal. modern brakes easily overpower any modern car
engine, even at full throttle.
2. the transmission can always be mechanically shifted to neutral.
3. the ignition switch will always work - if you bother to read the
owner's manual as to how to operate it.
since you're simply regurgitating the bullshit that came off the steps
of the whitehouse three years ago and that in turn has been dismissed as
simply driver error by every technical analysis of the vehicles
allegedly involved, you've either been living on another planet in the
interim, or you're an astroturfer trying to stir the pot - just like the
originator of this story.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
Harry K
Apr 14, 2012, 12:58:55 AM4/14/12
to
with those spikey tires. I never tire of watching them going around
corners with the car pointed the direction they want to come out of
the corner.
Harry K
Harry K
Apr 14, 2012, 1:02:40 AM4/14/12
to
On Apr 13, 8:16 pm, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> On 04/13/2012 07:20 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > "C. E. White" <cewhi...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
> On 04/13/2012 07:20 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
murder, suicide. Too much does not add up to other than deliberate
action.
Harry K
Brent
Apr 14, 2012, 3:38:54 AM4/14/12
to
On 2012-04-13, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> On 04/12/2012 06:10 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> C. E. White<cewh...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>> The override technology, which many automakers already make available,
>>> enables drivers to stop a vehicle if the brake and accelerator are depressed
>>> at the same time.
>>
>> My car has a device called an "ignition switch" that does this. If that
>> fails there is a "clutch pedal" which can be depressed to decouple the
>> engine from the wheels. I advocate these new technologies be adopted by
>> all car manufacturers.
>
> heh, true.
>
> but for fly-by-wire automatics, if you're actually prepared to accept
> the bizarre pretzel logic premise that a driver isn't ultimately
> responsible for knowing which pedal is which, and you're the member of a
> politically appointed committee trying to justify your existence, then
> you have to come up with some ideas. the big red button on the dash
> labeled "emergency engine cutoff" [like you get on diesels] has probably
> been run by people like frod and gotten killed on the basis that it'll
> cost them an extra 20 cents per vehicle. [that's someone's $200,000
> bonus on a million vehicle production run!] much more likely, this
> retardation is the compromise between the political committee's desire
> to be seen to be "doing something" and the manufacturer's unwillingness
> to spend more on hardware and agreement to implement in software, which
> costs them nothing.
Why am I not surprised you believe in the pinto myth?
> On 04/12/2012 06:10 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> C. E. White<cewh...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>> The override technology, which many automakers already make available,
>>> enables drivers to stop a vehicle if the brake and accelerator are depressed
>>> at the same time.
>>
>> My car has a device called an "ignition switch" that does this. If that
>> fails there is a "clutch pedal" which can be depressed to decouple the
>> engine from the wheels. I advocate these new technologies be adopted by
>> all car manufacturers.
>
> heh, true.
>
> but for fly-by-wire automatics, if you're actually prepared to accept
> the bizarre pretzel logic premise that a driver isn't ultimately
> responsible for knowing which pedal is which, and you're the member of a
> politically appointed committee trying to justify your existence, then
> you have to come up with some ideas. the big red button on the dash
> labeled "emergency engine cutoff" [like you get on diesels] has probably
> been run by people like frod and gotten killed on the basis that it'll
> cost them an extra 20 cents per vehicle. [that's someone's $200,000
> bonus on a million vehicle production run!] much more likely, this
> retardation is the compromise between the political committee's desire
> to be seen to be "doing something" and the manufacturer's unwillingness
> to spend more on hardware and agreement to implement in software, which
> costs them nothing.
http://www.pointoflaw.com/articles/The_Myth_of_the_Ford_Pinto_Case.pdf
You'll see where the dollars per life calculation comes from. Hint: it's
not Ford.
Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
Apr 14, 2012, 10:55:52 AM4/14/12
to
"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:jmapij$puk$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
the light balance of gas pedal while a) the brake pedal is pressed or b) for
manual transmissions, while the clutch is held just at the friction point.
Then the brake (or clutch) gets slowly released to start moving up the hill,
and even the gas pedal may be let up some small amount.
Properly done, the vehicle does not jackrabbit start. Improperly done--like
two of the local bus drivers have done when driving five speed automatic
transmission New Flyer 40 foot CNG buses--then either the vehicle
accelerates quicker than intended (like a small launch but the tires do not
squeal), or the transmission gets slammed then the vehicle accelerates even
slower than intended.
Another non-performance driving use of both gas and brake at the same time
is dragging the brakes when they get too wet during a significant rainstorm.
That also does not use full gas and full brake at the same time.
>
>>
>> Plus, the override would only occur at full throttle acceleration and
>> braking, so what specific situation demands full throttle accleration
>> and braking on main thoroughfare roads and highways, not test tracks?
>
> there's no way you can assume a throttle is going to stick at just one
> position. absolutely no way.
>
More than likely, the electronic throttle position sensor (more or less like
a potentiometer), will develop dead zones. Remember, the Lexus accident in
San Diego mentioned pedal stuck down due to a possible floor mat issue,
which means at some point, the gas pedal likely went full down. I'd guess
either because it was pressed full down during passing, or else maybe due to
some cruise control issue caused the pedal to fully drop to the floor.
Why do I suggest possibly a cruise control issue would have dropped the gas
pedal to the floor? Many years ago, I got to drive one of those old classic
Chevrolet Caprice Classic cars (sorry, forgot the year of the car). Turns
out the cruise control had a major malfunction--get the car up to 35mph or
more, hit the cruise control button, gas pedal dropped all the way to the
floor and the vehicle kept accelerating past the intended set point. Yes,
pressing the brake did cancel the cruise control. Another option would have
been to move the steering column shifter to neutral if the brake pedal did
not cancel cruise control. Doubtful that the left pedal parking brake could
have held the vehicle still accelerating with that much power.
news:jmapij$puk$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> On 04/13/2012 07:52 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
>> "Noone" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>> news:jm9jpf$348$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>>> "N8N" <njn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:c50b84da-4cb1-4dd8...@h5g2000vbx.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Apr 12, 4:25 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light
>>>> vehicles
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> seems to me I remember that there may be some situations in which
>>> being able to apply power and brake simultaneously was desirable...
>>> just more proof that the people that think this crap up aren't real
>>> "drivers" just "operators."
>>>
>>> nate
>>> ##################################
>>>
>>> Is there an echo in here? It's like deja-vu, all over again.
>> Except that most passenger cars are not intended for "performance
>> driving".
>
> holding a car on a hill is not "performance driving". i don't know where
> you're from, but hereabouts, driver's ed teaches you to left foot brake
> and apply right foot gas when pulling away on a hill. [indeed, that's why
> the brake pedal is wide enough for two feet on automatics - in case you
> hadn't noticed.] kinda hard to do with the stooooopidity envisaged above.
>
Holding a vehicle on a hill does not use full throttle acceleration, is uses
>> "Noone" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
>> news:jm9jpf$348$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>>> "N8N" <njn...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:c50b84da-4cb1-4dd8...@h5g2000vbx.googlegroups.com...
>>> On Apr 12, 4:25 pm, "C. E. White" <cewhi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>>>> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light
>>>> vehicles
>>>
>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> seems to me I remember that there may be some situations in which
>>> being able to apply power and brake simultaneously was desirable...
>>> just more proof that the people that think this crap up aren't real
>>> "drivers" just "operators."
>>>
>>> nate
>>> ##################################
>>>
>>> Is there an echo in here? It's like deja-vu, all over again.
>> Except that most passenger cars are not intended for "performance
>> driving".
>
> holding a car on a hill is not "performance driving". i don't know where
> you're from, but hereabouts, driver's ed teaches you to left foot brake
> and apply right foot gas when pulling away on a hill. [indeed, that's why
> the brake pedal is wide enough for two feet on automatics - in case you
> hadn't noticed.] kinda hard to do with the stooooopidity envisaged above.
>
the light balance of gas pedal while a) the brake pedal is pressed or b) for
manual transmissions, while the clutch is held just at the friction point.
Then the brake (or clutch) gets slowly released to start moving up the hill,
and even the gas pedal may be let up some small amount.
Properly done, the vehicle does not jackrabbit start. Improperly done--like
two of the local bus drivers have done when driving five speed automatic
transmission New Flyer 40 foot CNG buses--then either the vehicle
accelerates quicker than intended (like a small launch but the tires do not
squeal), or the transmission gets slammed then the vehicle accelerates even
slower than intended.
Another non-performance driving use of both gas and brake at the same time
is dragging the brakes when they get too wet during a significant rainstorm.
That also does not use full gas and full brake at the same time.
>
>>
>> Plus, the override would only occur at full throttle acceleration and
>> braking, so what specific situation demands full throttle accleration
>> and braking on main thoroughfare roads and highways, not test tracks?
>
> there's no way you can assume a throttle is going to stick at just one
> position. absolutely no way.
>
a potentiometer), will develop dead zones. Remember, the Lexus accident in
San Diego mentioned pedal stuck down due to a possible floor mat issue,
which means at some point, the gas pedal likely went full down. I'd guess
either because it was pressed full down during passing, or else maybe due to
some cruise control issue caused the pedal to fully drop to the floor.
Why do I suggest possibly a cruise control issue would have dropped the gas
pedal to the floor? Many years ago, I got to drive one of those old classic
Chevrolet Caprice Classic cars (sorry, forgot the year of the car). Turns
out the cruise control had a major malfunction--get the car up to 35mph or
more, hit the cruise control button, gas pedal dropped all the way to the
floor and the vehicle kept accelerating past the intended set point. Yes,
pressing the brake did cancel the cruise control. Another option would have
been to move the steering column shifter to neutral if the brake pedal did
not cancel cruise control. Doubtful that the left pedal parking brake could
have held the vehicle still accelerating with that much power.
Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
Apr 14, 2012, 11:26:55 AM4/14/12
to
"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:jmaq6i$r21$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> On 04/13/2012 07:20 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
>> "C. E. White" <cewh...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>> news:jm7dpn$e5u$1...@dont-email.me...
>>> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light
>>> vehicles
>>>
>>> Christina Rogers
>>>
>>> Automotive News -- April 12, 2012 - 12:28 pm ET
>>> UPDATED: 4/12/12 4:09 pm ET
>>>
>>> U.S. regulators today proposed a requirement that light vehicles have
>>> an override mechanism that enables a driver to stop a car or truck if
>>> the accelerator pedal gets stuck.
>>> The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said it was
>>> proposing the brake-throttle override rule because research showed it
>>> can reduce the risk of high-speed unintended acceleration and prevent
>>> crashes.
>>>
>> [snip...]
>>
>> This only makes sense. Consider that brakes will override full throttle
>> when both pedals are fully pressed down at a STANDSTILL.
>>
>> But what about moving? Well that's where brake pad fade, possibly
>> overheated rotors, and even brake fluid boiling can occur if the vehicle
>> is constantly accelerating at highway speeds or greater. Right?
>
> absolutely not. brakes easily outperform the engine on almost any car,
> and /definitely/ on any car post about 1950.
>
Really? I faded the brakes on a 2002 Nissan Sentra, while going down a two
>> "C. E. White" <cewh...@mindspring.com> wrote in message
>> news:jm7dpn$e5u$1...@dont-email.me...
>>> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light
>>> vehicles
>>>
>>> Christina Rogers
>>>
>>> Automotive News -- April 12, 2012 - 12:28 pm ET
>>> UPDATED: 4/12/12 4:09 pm ET
>>>
>>> U.S. regulators today proposed a requirement that light vehicles have
>>> an override mechanism that enables a driver to stop a car or truck if
>>> the accelerator pedal gets stuck.
>>> The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said it was
>>> proposing the brake-throttle override rule because research showed it
>>> can reduce the risk of high-speed unintended acceleration and prevent
>>> crashes.
>>>
>> [snip...]
>>
>> This only makes sense. Consider that brakes will override full throttle
>> when both pedals are fully pressed down at a STANDSTILL.
>>
>> But what about moving? Well that's where brake pad fade, possibly
>> overheated rotors, and even brake fluid boiling can occur if the vehicle
>> is constantly accelerating at highway speeds or greater. Right?
>
> absolutely not. brakes easily outperform the engine on almost any car,
> and /definitely/ on any car post about 1950.
>
mile steady downhill grade. Factory stock brake pads, obviously with some
use and not just newly installed, but they faded. The vehicle still slowed
as I watched the downhill speed, but I could smell pads burning at some
point and slowing was definitely less effective. Applying the brakes too
much or too hard? Maybe. Rotors needed to be resurfaced after that?
Probably, there was some judder afterwards. After pads fade? The next step
is overheated rotors, then eventually boiled brake fluid.
I don't think the Lexus crash occurred on flat land either, there is a
downhill section just before where the vehicle flew off the road and
crashed.
>
>> And
>> there were reports of the Lexus fatal accident in the San Diego area had
>> witnesses reporting brake rotors glowing red as if they were on fire.
>> Some news reports state the brakes were on fire.
>>
>> Link to one such story:
>>
>> Deadly car crash triggers questions about car safety - KSWB
>> www.fox5sandiego.com/news/kswb-car-problems,0,2732751.story
>
> what kind of troll bridge have you been hiding under this last couple of
> years? that "story" has been analyzed by the nhtsa no less, and they find
> no evidence of vehicle fault, only driver fault.
>
>
If rotors were reported as glowing/on fire, the brakes definitely did not
>> And
>> there were reports of the Lexus fatal accident in the San Diego area had
>> witnesses reporting brake rotors glowing red as if they were on fire.
>> Some news reports state the brakes were on fire.
>>
>> Link to one such story:
>>
>> Deadly car crash triggers questions about car safety - KSWB
>> www.fox5sandiego.com/news/kswb-car-problems,0,2732751.story
>
> what kind of troll bridge have you been hiding under this last couple of
> years? that "story" has been analyzed by the nhtsa no less, and they find
> no evidence of vehicle fault, only driver fault.
>
>
overpower the engine in that vehicle. If the vehicle acclerated to over
100mph with the driver saying no brakes, then the brakes did not overpower
the engine in that vehicle. If the vehicle crashed at such high speed that
the crash was fatal, then the brakes did not overpower the engine in that
vehicle. No matter what theoriticals engineers and others involved in
analyzing the accident may come up with, the brakes did not overpower the
engine in that vehicle. QED.
>>
>> Folks, this isn't nanny state stuff. Computer controlled cars with
>> electronic components should not be runaway machines. There should
>> always be an override even if it's a big red manual press plunger that
>> mechanically--not electrically--cuts power.
>
> but there already is. in fact, there are three of them.
>
> 1. the brake pedal. modern brakes easily overpower any modern car engine,
> even at full throttle.
>
disprove the theory. 911 call transscripts showed at one point is was said
"No brakes".
> 2. the transmission can always be mechanically shifted to neutral.
>
simple upward push to neutral. If the Lexus shifter was in sport mode,
pushing just up is +, or an upshift. Shifting to neutral requires moving
left out of the sport mode gate, then up to neutral.
> 3. the ignition switch will always work - if you bother to read the
> owner's manual as to how to operate it.
>
cut off the engine. Not something everyone is going to just remember right
away, if their vehicle is continuing to accelerate.
> since you're simply regurgitating the bullshit that came off the steps of
> the whitehouse three years ago and that in turn has been dismissed as
> simply driver error by every technical analysis of the vehicles allegedly
> involved, you've either been living on another planet in the interim, or
> you're an astroturfer trying to stir the pot - just like the originator of
> this story.
>
to, for there are many errors in engineering, why wouldn't there be errors
in a technical analysis.
Did someone actually stick the Lexus pedal in the same make and model, get
it over 100 mph while the pedal remained stuck, and then hold the brakes
until they either stopped the vehicle or lost all braking ability? Did they
attempt to reproduce the issue as closely as possible (i.e., obviously don't
launch off the road and crash)? No, I don't think they did that. Therefore
the technical analysis is still, in my opinion, quite incomplete.
Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
Apr 14, 2012, 2:17:32 PM4/14/12
to
(Top post replying...)
Why would someone call 911 if they were going to commit a murder/suicide?
They would have just done it and the news would have reported a mystery high
speed crash.
I'll ask again, as I did in reply to someone else's post.
Did anyone repeat the near-exact scenario?
Same make and model of vehicle, stick the gas pedal under the floor mat (but
deliberately to reproduce the scenario), and try to stop the car as the
vehicle keeps increasing speed. Does the vehicle come to an eventual stop,
or do they brakes eventual fail to stop the car altogether.
Use a different stretch of road, with a similar downhill slant before
levelling out, but does not end up with a point where the vehicle will
launch off the road. Don't shift to neutral or shut off the engine until the
vehicle has stopped or the vehicle is unable to be stopped. If the vehicle
is stopped, then of course unstick the pedal, shift to neutral and shut off
the engine. If the vehicle fails to stop, the scenario has been replicated.
Report the findings, get the ECU reports, see what they contain and don't
contain.
If no part of the investigation did that, the near exact scenario, then the
investigation is still incomplete. Replicating the scenario might also help
for determining what future override systems may have to do.
"Harry K" <turnk...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:10caf456-418a-426f...@is10g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...
Why would someone call 911 if they were going to commit a murder/suicide?
They would have just done it and the news would have reported a mystery high
speed crash.
I'll ask again, as I did in reply to someone else's post.
Did anyone repeat the near-exact scenario?
Same make and model of vehicle, stick the gas pedal under the floor mat (but
deliberately to reproduce the scenario), and try to stop the car as the
vehicle keeps increasing speed. Does the vehicle come to an eventual stop,
or do they brakes eventual fail to stop the car altogether.
Use a different stretch of road, with a similar downhill slant before
levelling out, but does not end up with a point where the vehicle will
launch off the road. Don't shift to neutral or shut off the engine until the
vehicle has stopped or the vehicle is unable to be stopped. If the vehicle
is stopped, then of course unstick the pedal, shift to neutral and shut off
the engine. If the vehicle fails to stop, the scenario has been replicated.
Report the findings, get the ECU reports, see what they contain and don't
contain.
If no part of the investigation did that, the near exact scenario, then the
investigation is still incomplete. Replicating the scenario might also help
for determining what future override systems may have to do.
"Harry K" <turnk...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:10caf456-418a-426f...@is10g2000pbc.googlegroups.com...
Jim Yanik
Apr 14, 2012, 3:15:05 PM4/14/12
to
jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote in news:jmaj55$e2g$2...@speranza.aioe.org:
AMEN!
and no jumping to a different gov't job.
no hopping between House and Senate,and then to some other gov't job.
No "career" in gov't for legislators.
and no jumping to a different gov't job.
no hopping between House and Senate,and then to some other gov't job.
No "career" in gov't for legislators.
Jim Yanik
Apr 14, 2012, 3:17:47 PM4/14/12
to
jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote in news:jmapij$puk$1...@speranza.aioe.org:
if you need to hillhold,that is what the handbrake is for.
Left-foot braking is a BAD habit. you learn to use the same foot all the
time for the same function,so that in an emergency,you automatically
react the right way,and you cna't left-foot brake with a stick shift.
Left-foot braking is a BAD habit. you learn to use the same foot all the
time for the same function,so that in an emergency,you automatically
react the right way,and you cna't left-foot brake with a stick shift.
jim beam
Apr 14, 2012, 3:27:23 PM4/14/12
to
lobbying jobs and boardroom appointments either! the revolving door
between "regulators" and the "regulated" has cost american taxpayers
literally trillions of dollars.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
jim beam
Apr 14, 2012, 3:34:59 PM4/14/12
to
ratcheting foot operated parking brakes, you can't do that.
> Left-foot braking is a BAD habit. you learn to use the same foot all the
> time for the same function,so that in an emergency,you automatically
> react the right way,and you cna't left-foot brake with a stick shift.
driver's ed. you'll therefore never convince the proles otherwise. and
you'll need to convince our "regulators" who continue to allow
manufacture of vehicles specifically to be left foot braked with
double-width [both feet] brake pedals on every automatic and who don't
insist that vehicles have hand operated parking brakes.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
jim beam
Apr 14, 2012, 3:35:29 PM4/14/12
to
On 04/14/2012 11:17 AM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
<snip troll>
you're about three years behind the times, troll. the whole thing has
been exhaustively investigated, including the "black box", including by
the nhtsa. no vehicle problem other than floor mat. and frankly, if
some retard driver doesn't notice the freakin' mat's in the way and
doesn't reach down and move it, that's /still/ not a vehicle problem.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
<snip troll>
you're about three years behind the times, troll. the whole thing has
been exhaustively investigated, including the "black box", including by
the nhtsa. no vehicle problem other than floor mat. and frankly, if
some retard driver doesn't notice the freakin' mat's in the way and
doesn't reach down and move it, that's /still/ not a vehicle problem.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
Apr 14, 2012, 3:59:14 PM4/14/12
to
"jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:jmcjht$nd$2...@speranza.aioe.org...
Cite? As in provide a link proving it.
news:jmcjht$nd$2...@speranza.aioe.org...
Jim Yanik
Apr 14, 2012, 6:53:20 PM4/14/12
to
jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote in news:jmcj2o$v9v$1...@speranza.aioe.org:
with term limits,lobbying becomes much less effective.
after a cycle or two,the lobbyist no longer knows any one,and doesn't have
enough time to develop a "relationship". Plus,the money they could dole out
for re-election is no longer useful;in fact they would be unable to dole
out such monies.
after a cycle or two,the lobbyist no longer knows any one,and doesn't have
enough time to develop a "relationship". Plus,the money they could dole out
for re-election is no longer useful;in fact they would be unable to dole
out such monies.
Jim Yanik
Apr 14, 2012, 6:56:57 PM4/14/12
to
jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote in news:jmcjh1$nd$1...@speranza.aioe.org:
I've never seen an automatic that needed hillholding;
usually,they have a lot of creep unless you keep your foot on the brake.
a couple of miles per hour of "creep",I believe.
usually,they have a lot of creep unless you keep your foot on the brake.
a couple of miles per hour of "creep",I believe.
>
>
>> Left-foot braking is a BAD habit. you learn to use the same foot all the
>> time for the same function,so that in an emergency,you automatically
>> react the right way,and you cna't left-foot brake with a stick shift.
>
> i personally agree, but left foot braking for hill holding is in
> driver's ed. you'll therefore never convince the proles otherwise. and
> you'll need to convince our "regulators" who continue to allow
> manufacture of vehicles specifically to be left foot braked with
> double-width [both feet] brake pedals on every automatic and who don't
> insist that vehicles have hand operated parking brakes.
>
>
--
>
>> Left-foot braking is a BAD habit. you learn to use the same foot all the
>> time for the same function,so that in an emergency,you automatically
>> react the right way,and you cna't left-foot brake with a stick shift.
>
> i personally agree, but left foot braking for hill holding is in
> driver's ed. you'll therefore never convince the proles otherwise. and
> you'll need to convince our "regulators" who continue to allow
> manufacture of vehicles specifically to be left foot braked with
> double-width [both feet] brake pedals on every automatic and who don't
> insist that vehicles have hand operated parking brakes.
>
>
--
Sancho Panza
Apr 14, 2012, 10:15:31 PM4/14/12
to
"Toyota Recall Recap: Floormats, Sticky Pedals, AND User Error
February 28, 2011 6:47 PM
Let’s recap.
After 18 months, recalls totaling 9 million Toyota, Lexus, and Pontiac
models, and investigations by Toyota, Congress, NASA, and the U.S.
Department of Transportation’s National Highway Traffic Safety
Administration (NHTSA) unit … what have we learned?
(1) A few accelerator pedals did stick open, for one of two very
different reasons.
First, some dealers or owners fitted unapproved floor mats that were too
thick, which could prevent the accelerator from returning to its usual
position.
In the case of the horrifying and highly publicized crash of a Lexus
that sped along a California freeway before overturning, burning, and
killing all four occupants, a trapped accelerator pedal is thought to
have been compounded by the driver not knowing how to turn off the
engine in a car with a push-button start.
Loose all-weather floor mat jams accelerator pedal. Photo: NHTSA
(The answer: Hold down the “Start” button for a full 3 seconds. Hardly
obvious without reading the owner’s manual, which few people do for
their own car, let alone the dealership loaner that crashed.)
Solution: Toyota amputated the bottoms of low-hanging pedals in some
models, leaving clearance for even the thickest floor mats to be used
without interfering with reshaped, shorter pedals.
Second, some other accelerator pedal mechanisms stuck under specific
temperature and humidity conditions, remaining at about 15 percent of
full throttle because moisture prevented a smooth return action.
2004 Toyota Prius accelerator pedal after being shortened as part of
sudden-acceleration recall
It got complicated: Only pedal assemblies made by CTS, one of two parts
suppliers, suffered from the issue. So Toyota [NYSE:TM] first had to
sort out which cars got parts from which supplier.
Solution: Starting in February 2010, Toyota installed a steel
reinforcement bar on models using pedals supplied by CTS (a different
set of cars from those on the amputation list). The bar kept the
mechanism away from the position where it could stick.
(For more information, see our summary, Toyota And Lexus Recall:
Everything You Need To Know, which gives details on the two separate
recalls to address accelerator issues.)
(2) Investigators found no “electronic gremlins” in Toyota’s vehicle or
engine control software.
This was the big fear, raised repeatedly by plaintiff lawyers and on the
floor of Congress. Math is hard, software is confusing, and computerized
cars are scary. The lack of technical knowledge among elected officials
didn’t help either.
Toyota retrofit fix for sticky-throttle recall
But investigators could not replicate a single so-called “sudden
acceleration” event once floor-mat and sticky-pedal causes were eliminated.
They pored through hundreds of thousands of lines of code seeking
anomalies, unaddressed use cases, or any other problem that might make a
car careen suddenly forward.
They even subjected Toyotas to high levels of electromagnetic
interference, to see if systems weren’t properly shielded. Nothing changed.
The full NHTSA report wasn’t released by the DoT until this Tuesday, but
as early as last August, the agency sent signals it had concluded that
no electronic faults existed.
(3) Drivers who swear their car accelerated out of control are often wrong.
You put your foot on the brake, but instead of slowing, your car
accelerates. The harder you brake, the faster it speeds up. Must be
“sudden acceleration,” right?
Well, no.
2009 Toyota Prius
It is, says psychology professor Richard Schmidt at the University of
California, Los Angeles, “noisy neuromuscular processes” that
occasionally prevent a limb from doing what the brain tells it to.
Translation: Drivers sometimes press the gas pedal when they mean to brake.
The driver thinks his or her foot is on the brake. But it’s not; it
deviated slightly from the intended path, and landed on the loud pedal
instead.
As soon as the car accelerates, the panicky driver presses even harder
on the “brake,” exacerbating the crisis.
Age may play a factor too, with data showing that the bulk of Toyota
“sudden acceleration” deaths involving drivers aged 60 to 80.
In two highly publicized cases of so-called sudden acceleration,
including one very suspicious one, investigators found either “strong
indications that the driver’s account of the event is inconsistent with
the findings of the analysis” (for which, read, “he lied”) or “no
application of the brakes, [with] the throttle … fully open.”
But there are no mysterious electronic gremlins. And drivers do make
mistakes.
Honest."--http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/02/28/toyota-recall-recap-floormats-sticky-pedals-and-user-error/
Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
Apr 14, 2012, 11:01:16 PM4/14/12
to
"Jim Yanik" <jya...@abuse.gov> wrote in message
news:XnsA035C0E674D1E...@216.168.3.44...
However, there are some 4 cylinder automatic transmissions with rollback.
Hill holding would be just before the moment of moving forward: 1) left foot
on brake pedal, 2) right foot on gas pedal, 3) apply a small amount of gas
pedal then slowly release the brake. Properly done means no rollback and no
suddenly moving forward too fast.
[snip...]
news:XnsA035C0E674D1E...@216.168.3.44...
Hill holding would be just before the moment of moving forward: 1) left foot
on brake pedal, 2) right foot on gas pedal, 3) apply a small amount of gas
pedal then slowly release the brake. Properly done means no rollback and no
suddenly moving forward too fast.
[snip...]
Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
Apr 14, 2012, 11:06:36 PM4/14/12
to
"Sancho Panza" <otter...@xhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4f8a2f44$0$12872$607e...@cv.net...
not my responsibility to search for it.
But since you provided a cite:
> "Toyota Recall Recap: Floormats, Sticky Pedals, AND User Error
> February 28, 2011 6:47 PM
>
> Let’s recap.
>
[snip... full article text quoted removed from the reply]
> Honest."--http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/02/28/toyota-recall-recap-floormats-sticky-pedals-and-user-error/
Not one mention of going to the open road, causing a pedal stick situtation
in the full throttle position, then trying to outbrake the still
accelerating vehicle. If they didn't do that, the investigation to this day
is still quite incomplete.
news:4f8a2f44$0$12872$607e...@cv.net...
> On 4/14/2012 3:59 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
>> "jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>> news:jmcjht$nd$2...@speranza.aioe.org...
>>> On 04/14/2012 11:17 AM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
>>> <snip troll>
>>>
>>> you're about three years behind the times, troll. the whole thing has
>>> been exhaustively investigated, including the "black box", including
>>> by the nhtsa. no vehicle problem other than floor mat. and frankly, if
>>> some retard driver doesn't notice the freakin' mat's in the way and
>>> doesn't reach down and move it, that's /still/ not a vehicle problem.
>>>
>> Cite? As in provide a link proving it.
>
> For the search-engine impaired:
>
The claim was yours that you made, so you were expected to make the cite,
>> "jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>> news:jmcjht$nd$2...@speranza.aioe.org...
>>> On 04/14/2012 11:17 AM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
>>> <snip troll>
>>>
>>> you're about three years behind the times, troll. the whole thing has
>>> been exhaustively investigated, including the "black box", including
>>> by the nhtsa. no vehicle problem other than floor mat. and frankly, if
>>> some retard driver doesn't notice the freakin' mat's in the way and
>>> doesn't reach down and move it, that's /still/ not a vehicle problem.
>>>
>> Cite? As in provide a link proving it.
>
> For the search-engine impaired:
>
not my responsibility to search for it.
But since you provided a cite:
> "Toyota Recall Recap: Floormats, Sticky Pedals, AND User Error
> February 28, 2011 6:47 PM
>
> Let’s recap.
>
> Honest."--http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2011/02/28/toyota-recall-recap-floormats-sticky-pedals-and-user-error/
Not one mention of going to the open road, causing a pedal stick situtation
in the full throttle position, then trying to outbrake the still
accelerating vehicle. If they didn't do that, the investigation to this day
is still quite incomplete.
Harry K
Apr 14, 2012, 11:55:58 PM4/14/12
to
On Apr 14, 12:34 pm, jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
> On 04/14/2012 12:17 PM, Jim Yanik wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote innews:jmapij$puk$1...@speranza.aioe.org:
> On 04/14/2012 12:17 PM, Jim Yanik wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> On 04/13/2012 07:52 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
> >>> "Noone"<no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:jm9jpf$348$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> >>>> "N8N"<njna...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> On 04/13/2012 07:52 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
> >>> "Noone"<no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> >>>news:jm9jpf$348$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
bigger than than the one on my manual tranny PU. No way in hell could
I use both feet on it.
Thinking back I have to go way back to recall a car that had one of
those over width brakee pedals.
I'll have to check the next time I'm out and about but I don't recall
haveing to do anything to hill hold in the last severl auto trannies.
Pull up to stop and step on gas to get toing again. Of coruse it is
such an ingrained, automatic operation It could be that I do have to
dosoemtething other than "take foot off brake and step on gas".
Harry K
Harry K
Apr 15, 2012, 12:00:30 AM4/15/12
to
On Apr 14, 12:15 pm, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov> wrote:
> jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote innews:jmaj55$e2g$2...@speranza.aioe.org:
In addition to term limits there should be a ban on more than one
"career" in Washington. Get your terms completed as a congressman,
that's it, no other government job ever in Washington.
Harry K
> jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote innews:jmaj55$e2g$2...@speranza.aioe.org:
"career" in Washington. Get your terms completed as a congressman,
that's it, no other government job ever in Washington.
Harry K
jim beam
Apr 15, 2012, 12:12:11 AM4/15/12
to
On 04/14/2012 03:56 PM, Jim Yanik wrote:
> jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote in news:jmcjh1$nd$1...@speranza.aioe.org:
that was in the old days - i like my 89 civic automatic because of it.
but my 2000 civic didn't have it to improve idle [city] fuel economy.
it made close maneuvering a pain, and would sometimes necessitate
throttle and left foot braking to allow the vehicle to creep forward
SLOWLY, which just throttle alone wouldn't let.
>>
>>
>>> Left-foot braking is a BAD habit. you learn to use the same foot all the
>>> time for the same function,so that in an emergency,you automatically
>>> react the right way,and you cna't left-foot brake with a stick shift.
>>
>> i personally agree, but left foot braking for hill holding is in
>> driver's ed. you'll therefore never convince the proles otherwise. and
>> you'll need to convince our "regulators" who continue to allow
>> manufacture of vehicles specifically to be left foot braked with
>> double-width [both feet] brake pedals on every automatic and who don't
>> insist that vehicles have hand operated parking brakes.
>>
>>
>
>
>
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
> jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote in news:jmcjh1$nd$1...@speranza.aioe.org:
but my 2000 civic didn't have it to improve idle [city] fuel economy.
it made close maneuvering a pain, and would sometimes necessitate
throttle and left foot braking to allow the vehicle to creep forward
SLOWLY, which just throttle alone wouldn't let.
>>
>>
>>> Left-foot braking is a BAD habit. you learn to use the same foot all the
>>> time for the same function,so that in an emergency,you automatically
>>> react the right way,and you cna't left-foot brake with a stick shift.
>>
>> i personally agree, but left foot braking for hill holding is in
>> driver's ed. you'll therefore never convince the proles otherwise. and
>> you'll need to convince our "regulators" who continue to allow
>> manufacture of vehicles specifically to be left foot braked with
>> double-width [both feet] brake pedals on every automatic and who don't
>> insist that vehicles have hand operated parking brakes.
>>
>>
>
>
>
--
Harry K
Apr 15, 2012, 12:16:36 AM4/15/12
to
On Apr 14, 11:17 am, "Daniel W. Rouse Jr."
<dwrous...@nethere.comNOSPAM> wrote:
<snip>
> (harry K)
> (Top post replying...)
Why?!
------------------------
(Dan Rouse)
something you add yours to the bottom, not the top. Did my mpost
somehow show up in your reader 'top posted?"
Anyhow..
IIRC it was the passenger that made the call but that is immaterial.
Driver could have done it as a coverup to his motives...insurance?
That went on way too long for a supposed well rained driver and ended
in a direct head on into a barrier. It stank to high heaven for an
"accident".
Harry K
>
<snip of a bunch to return the posts to netiquette order>
Harry K
<dwrous...@nethere.comNOSPAM> wrote:
<snip>
> (harry K)
> I am still convinced that that one was no accident but rather a
> murder, suicide. Too much does not add up to other than deliberate
> action.
-------------------------
> murder, suicide. Too much does not add up to other than deliberate
> action.
> (Top post replying...)
Why?!
------------------------
(Dan Rouse)
> Why would someone call 911 if they were going to commit a murder/suicide?
> They would have just done it and the news would have reported a mystery high
> speed crash.
I cutnpasted to return this to normal posting order, i.e., I say
> They would have just done it and the news would have reported a mystery high
> speed crash.
something you add yours to the bottom, not the top. Did my mpost
somehow show up in your reader 'top posted?"
Anyhow..
IIRC it was the passenger that made the call but that is immaterial.
Driver could have done it as a coverup to his motives...insurance?
That went on way too long for a supposed well rained driver and ended
in a direct head on into a barrier. It stank to high heaven for an
"accident".
Harry K
>
<snip of a bunch to return the posts to netiquette order>
Harry K
Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
Apr 15, 2012, 5:53:54 AM4/15/12
to
(Replying top post again, sorry...)
Something about your posts and a couple of other posts do not cause my
newsreader to generate the usual '>' characters when I reply to the post.
Something about Quoted Printable, I think. Could also be a bug in Windows
Mail. However, for the few amount posts that do have this issue, it does not
justify changing newsreaders.
news:09d05c9c-9306-403f...@x5g2000pbl.googlegroups.com...
Something about your posts and a couple of other posts do not cause my
newsreader to generate the usual '>' characters when I reply to the post.
Something about Quoted Printable, I think. Could also be a bug in Windows
Mail. However, for the few amount posts that do have this issue, it does not
justify changing newsreaders.
news:09d05c9c-9306-403f...@x5g2000pbl.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 14, 11:17 am, "Daniel W. Rouse Jr."
<dwrous...@nethere.comNOSPAM> wrote:
[snip...]
<dwrous...@nethere.comNOSPAM> wrote:
Sancho Panza
Apr 15, 2012, 11:53:04 AM4/15/12
to
On 4/14/2012 11:06 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
> "Sancho Panza" <otter...@xhotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4f8a2f44$0$12872$607e...@cv.net...
>> On 4/14/2012 3:59 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
>>> "jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>> news:jmcjht$nd$2...@speranza.aioe.org...
>>>> On 04/14/2012 11:17 AM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
>>>> <snip troll>
>>>>
>>>> you're about three years behind the times, troll. the whole thing has
>>>> been exhaustively investigated, including the "black box", including
>>>> by the nhtsa. no vehicle problem other than floor mat. and frankly, if
>>>> some retard driver doesn't notice the freakin' mat's in the way and
>>>> doesn't reach down and move it, that's /still/ not a vehicle problem.
>>>>
>>> Cite? As in provide a link proving it.
>>
>> For the search-engine impaired:
>>
> The claim was yours that you made, so you were expected to make the
> cite, not my responsibility to search for it.
You don't even know who made the statement you were replying to. No
> "Sancho Panza" <otter...@xhotmail.com> wrote in message
> news:4f8a2f44$0$12872$607e...@cv.net...
>> On 4/14/2012 3:59 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
>>> "jim beam" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
>>> news:jmcjht$nd$2...@speranza.aioe.org...
>>>> On 04/14/2012 11:17 AM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
>>>> <snip troll>
>>>>
>>>> you're about three years behind the times, troll. the whole thing has
>>>> been exhaustively investigated, including the "black box", including
>>>> by the nhtsa. no vehicle problem other than floor mat. and frankly, if
>>>> some retard driver doesn't notice the freakin' mat's in the way and
>>>> doesn't reach down and move it, that's /still/ not a vehicle problem.
>>>>
>>> Cite? As in provide a link proving it.
>>
>> For the search-engine impaired:
>>
> The claim was yours that you made, so you were expected to make the
> cite, not my responsibility to search for it.
wonder why more complicated facts are so difficult to grasp.
Noone
Apr 15, 2012, 12:23:52 PM4/15/12
to
"Daniel W. Rouse Jr." <dwro...@nethere.comNOSPAM> wrote in message
news:ZoednZIV07mOphfS...@nethere.com...
The inadequate words of mere mortals couldn't begin to
capably express the vast depths of your profound idiocy.
news:ZoednZIV07mOphfS...@nethere.com...
capably express the vast depths of your profound idiocy.
Harry K
Apr 15, 2012, 4:23:18 PM4/15/12
to
On Apr 15, 2:53 am, "Daniel W. Rouse Jr."
> "Harry K" <turnkey4...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
version which is what I am using. Never caused a problem before.
Harry K
>
> news:09d05c9c-9306-403f...@x5g2000pbl.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 14, 11:17 am, "Daniel W. Rouse Jr."
>
> <dwrous...@nethere.comNOSPAM> wrote:
>
> [snip...]
Okay, understandable. Musst be something new to the old google
> news:09d05c9c-9306-403f...@x5g2000pbl.googlegroups.com...
> On Apr 14, 11:17 am, "Daniel W. Rouse Jr."
>
> <dwrous...@nethere.comNOSPAM> wrote:
>
> [snip...]
version which is what I am using. Never caused a problem before.
Harry K
MG
Apr 15, 2012, 7:30:52 PM4/15/12
to
"Brent" <tetraethylle...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:jmb9ie$m87$1...@dont-email.me...
enjoyable experience of premature clutch replacement. None of the
speculation in this thread truly addresses why the guy in California didn't
just shift into neutral. He was a state trooper; he should have known
better. Also, that Lexus didn't go from 50 to whatever in the blink of an
eye. He had to have had several seconds to consider his options and act on
them.
>
Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
Apr 15, 2012, 8:39:57 PM4/15/12
to
"Sancho Panza" <otter...@xhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:4f8aeee0$0$24206$607e...@cv.net...
Daniel W. Rouse Jr.
Apr 15, 2012, 8:41:15 PM4/15/12
to
"Noone" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:jmesme$38f$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
theoreticals are invalid. QED.
N8N
Apr 16, 2012, 8:35:30 AM4/16/12
to
On Apr 14, 3:17 pm, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov> wrote:
> jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote innews:jmapij$puk$1...@speranza.aioe.org:
I agree, if your car has a handbrake. Unfortunately many have a foot
operated parking brake, and even worse, some newer ones are "kick to
release" instead of having a lever to pull, so you can't modulate the
e-brake, it's either on or off.
nate
> jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote innews:jmapij$puk$1...@speranza.aioe.org:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 04/13/2012 07:52 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
> >> "Noone" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> >>news:jm9jpf$348$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> >>> "N8N" <njna...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>
>
>
>
> > On 04/13/2012 07:52 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
> >> "Noone" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> >>news:jm9jpf$348$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
operated parking brake, and even worse, some newer ones are "kick to
release" instead of having a lever to pull, so you can't modulate the
e-brake, it's either on or off.
nate
N8N
Apr 16, 2012, 8:38:07 AM4/16/12
to
On Apr 14, 6:56 pm, Jim Yanik <jya...@abuse.gov> wrote:
> jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote innews:jmcjh1$nd$1...@speranza.aioe.org:
You know what's odd, my company car *both* requires hillholding and
also has a lot of creep/runaway/whatever you call it. I really hate
recent (and by "recent" I mean "within the last decade" - if not more)
GM transmissions.
Now the Toyota/Aisin-Warner (AW4) trans in my Jeep behaves about like
I would expect an auto trans to do; my only complaint with it is that
doesn't have discrete lever positions for "1" and "2".
nate
> jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote innews:jmcjh1$nd$1...@speranza.aioe.org:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 04/14/2012 12:17 PM, Jim Yanik wrote:
> >> jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote innews:jmapij$puk$1...@speranza.aioe.org:
>
>
>
>
> > On 04/14/2012 12:17 PM, Jim Yanik wrote:
>
> >>> On 04/13/2012 07:52 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
> >>>> "Noone"<no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> >>>>news:jm9jpf$348$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> >>>>> "N8N"<njna...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >>> On 04/13/2012 07:52 PM, Daniel W. Rouse Jr. wrote:
> >>>> "Noone"<no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
> >>>>news:jm9jpf$348$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
also has a lot of creep/runaway/whatever you call it. I really hate
recent (and by "recent" I mean "within the last decade" - if not more)
GM transmissions.
Now the Toyota/Aisin-Warner (AW4) trans in my Jeep behaves about like
I would expect an auto trans to do; my only complaint with it is that
doesn't have discrete lever positions for "1" and "2".
nate
Ashton Crusher
Apr 22, 2012, 7:52:00 PM4/22/12
to
On Thu, 12 Apr 2012 21:05:07 -0400, Arif Khokar <akhok...@wvu.edu>
wrote:
>On 4/12/2012 4:25 PM, C. E. White wrote:
>> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light vehicles
>>
>
>Perhaps they should mandate manual transmissions instead. That inherent
>clutch override should work perfectly.
Last time I checked, all automatic transmission had the capability of
being shifted into neutral.
wrote:
>On 4/12/2012 4:25 PM, C. E. White wrote:
>> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light vehicles
>>
>> Christina Rogers
>>
>> Automotive News -- April 12, 2012 - 12:28 pm ET
>> UPDATED: 4/12/12 4:09 pm ET
>
>> Read more: http://www.autonews.com/article/20120412/OEM11/120419954
>>
>> Automotive News -- April 12, 2012 - 12:28 pm ET
>> UPDATED: 4/12/12 4:09 pm ET
>
>
>Perhaps they should mandate manual transmissions instead. That inherent
>clutch override should work perfectly.
Last time I checked, all automatic transmission had the capability of
being shifted into neutral.
Ashton Crusher
Apr 22, 2012, 8:00:06 PM4/22/12
to
essentially what you are asking about. They had no problem stopping
the car but it was, of course, taking more pressure on the brake
pedal.
Tom $herman (-_-)
May 5, 2012, 5:27:35 PM5/5/12
to
On 4/13/2012 8:42 AM, N8N wrote:
--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!
> On Apr 12, 4:25 pm, "C. E. White"<cewhi...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light vehicles
>
>> U.S. regulators seek brake-throttle override mandate for all light vehicles
>
> <snip>
>
> seems to me I remember that there may be some situations in which
> being able to apply power and brake simultaneously was desirable...
> just more proof that the people that think this crap up aren't real
> "drivers" just "operators."
>
> nate
How would one do power-braking burnouts in such a vehicle?
>
> seems to me I remember that there may be some situations in which
> being able to apply power and brake simultaneously was desirable...
> just more proof that the people that think this crap up aren't real
> "drivers" just "operators."
>
> nate
--
Tºm Shermªn - 42.435731°N, 83.985007°W
Post Free or Die!
Tom $herman (-_-)
May 5, 2012, 5:39:02 PM5/5/12
to
On 4/12/2012 9:53 PM, "jim beam" wrote:
>
Hey "jim", long time, no "see".
> but for fly-by-wire automatics, if you're actually prepared to accept
> the bizarre pretzel logic premise that a driver isn't ultimately
> responsible for knowing which pedal is which, and you're the member of a
> politically appointed committee trying to justify your existence, then
> you have to come up with some ideas. the big red button on the dash
> labeled "emergency engine cutoff" [like you get on diesels] has probably
> been run by people like frod and gotten killed on the basis that it'll
> cost them an extra 20 cents per vehicle. [that's someone's $200,000
> bonus on a million vehicle production run!] much more likely, this
> retardation is the compromise between the political committee's desire
> to be seen to be "doing something" and the manufacturer's unwillingness
> to spend more on hardware and agreement to implement in software, which
> costs them nothing.
Well, three of my four Honda's and my Yamaha have a bright red kill
switch within easy reach of my right thumb while my hand is on the
throttle and/or fingers on the front brake. They even function after
being rained on all day while parked outside at work.
>
Hey "jim", long time, no "see".
> but for fly-by-wire automatics, if you're actually prepared to accept
> the bizarre pretzel logic premise that a driver isn't ultimately
> responsible for knowing which pedal is which, and you're the member of a
> politically appointed committee trying to justify your existence, then
> you have to come up with some ideas. the big red button on the dash
> labeled "emergency engine cutoff" [like you get on diesels] has probably
> been run by people like frod and gotten killed on the basis that it'll
> cost them an extra 20 cents per vehicle. [that's someone's $200,000
> bonus on a million vehicle production run!] much more likely, this
> retardation is the compromise between the political committee's desire
> to be seen to be "doing something" and the manufacturer's unwillingness
> to spend more on hardware and agreement to implement in software, which
> costs them nothing.
switch within easy reach of my right thumb while my hand is on the
throttle and/or fingers on the front brake. They even function after
being rained on all day while parked outside at work.
Tom $herman (-_-)
May 5, 2012, 5:39:48 PM5/5/12
to
On 4/13/2012 12:44 PM, gpsman wrote:
> "complete vision exam" in 15 seconds from a DMV clerk.
> they have concluded the average "motorist" isn't a "driver", and isn't
> worth a shit when they are jolted awake under pressure.
>
> I don't have any idea how you may have concluded you're any judge of
> "drivers" or "driving" with your fistfuls of tickets...
> -----
>
> - gpsman
What does getting speeding tickets from hidden radar sniper cops that
are raising revenue for their department and the insurance companies
have to do with driving ability?
> On Apr 13, 9:42 am, N8N<njna...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> seems to me I remember that there may be some situations in which
>> being able to apply power and brake simultaneously was desirable...
>
> Penetrating analysis, from the guy who remembers he received a
>>
>> seems to me I remember that there may be some situations in which
>> being able to apply power and brake simultaneously was desirable...
>
> "complete vision exam" in 15 seconds from a DMV clerk.
>
>> just more proof that the people that think this crap up aren't real
>> "drivers" just "operators."
>
> Non sequitur. "Operator" is synonymous with "driver", and perhaps
>> just more proof that the people that think this crap up aren't real
>> "drivers" just "operators."
>
> they have concluded the average "motorist" isn't a "driver", and isn't
> worth a shit when they are jolted awake under pressure.
>
> I don't have any idea how you may have concluded you're any judge of
> "drivers" or "driving" with your fistfuls of tickets...
> -----
>
> - gpsman
What does getting speeding tickets from hidden radar sniper cops that
are raising revenue for their department and the insurance companies
have to do with driving ability?
Tom $herman (-_-)
May 5, 2012, 5:41:19 PM5/5/12
to
On 4/14/2012 2:27 PM, jim beam wrote:
> On 04/14/2012 12:15 PM, Jim Yanik wrote:
>> jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote in news:jmaj55$e2g$2...@speranza.aioe.org:
(Press release needed.) ;)
> On 04/14/2012 12:15 PM, Jim Yanik wrote:
>> jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote in news:jmaj55$e2g$2...@speranza.aioe.org:
>>
>>> On 04/13/2012 06:14 PM, tom thumb wrote:
>>> <brevity>
>>>>>
>>>> Where's the Regulators' Override Switch? We need to tell Congress to
>>>> yank it real hard!
>>>
>>> no, we need to yank the override switch on congress. throw them out and
>>> bring in a new lot with a strict 4 year term limit.
>>>
>>>
>> AMEN!
>> and no jumping to a different gov't job.
>> no hopping between House and Senate,and then to some other gov't job.
>> No "career" in gov't for legislators.
>>
>
>>> On 04/13/2012 06:14 PM, tom thumb wrote:
>>> <brevity>
>>>>>
>>>> Where's the Regulators' Override Switch? We need to tell Congress to
>>>> yank it real hard!
>>>
>>> no, we need to yank the override switch on congress. throw them out and
>>> bring in a new lot with a strict 4 year term limit.
>>>
>>>
>> AMEN!
>> and no jumping to a different gov't job.
>> no hopping between House and Senate,and then to some other gov't job.
>> No "career" in gov't for legislators.
>>
>
> and i think the most important one, no jumping back and forth with
> lobbying jobs and boardroom appointments either! the revolving door
> between "regulators" and the "regulated" has cost american taxpayers
> literally trillions of dollars.
Hey, I agree with "jim beam".
> lobbying jobs and boardroom appointments either! the revolving door
> between "regulators" and the "regulated" has cost american taxpayers
> literally trillions of dollars.
(Press release needed.) ;)
jim beam
May 5, 2012, 7:34:40 PM5/5/12
to
On 05/05/2012 02:39 PM, Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:
> On 4/12/2012 9:53 PM, "jim beam" wrote:
>>
> Hey "jim", long time, no "see".
likewise! hope all is well.
> On 4/12/2012 9:53 PM, "jim beam" wrote:
>>
> Hey "jim", long time, no "see".
>
>> but for fly-by-wire automatics, if you're actually prepared to accept
>> the bizarre pretzel logic premise that a driver isn't ultimately
>> responsible for knowing which pedal is which, and you're the member of a
>> politically appointed committee trying to justify your existence, then
>> you have to come up with some ideas. the big red button on the dash
>> labeled "emergency engine cutoff" [like you get on diesels] has probably
>> been run by people like frod and gotten killed on the basis that it'll
>> cost them an extra 20 cents per vehicle. [that's someone's $200,000
>> bonus on a million vehicle production run!] much more likely, this
>> retardation is the compromise between the political committee's desire
>> to be seen to be "doing something" and the manufacturer's unwillingness
>> to spend more on hardware and agreement to implement in software, which
>> costs them nothing.
>
> Well, three of my four Honda's and my Yamaha have a bright red kill
> switch within easy reach of my right thumb while my hand is on the
> throttle and/or fingers on the front brake. They even function after
> being rained on all day while parked outside at work.
>
motorcycles have the additional advantage of having their fly-by-wire
throttles also rigged with a cable so that the fly-by-wire mechanism
regulates opening, but releasing the throttle mechanically snaps them
shut, just like conventional throttles.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
John David Galt
May 5, 2012, 9:07:37 PM5/5/12
to
On 2012-04-14 12:27, jim beam wrote:
> and i think the most important one, no jumping back and forth with lobbying jobs
> and boardroom appointments either! the revolving door between "regulators" and
> the "regulated" has cost american taxpayers literally trillions of dollars.
That "rent seeking" (look it up on Wikipedia) is the inevitable result of
> and i think the most important one, no jumping back and forth with lobbying jobs
> and boardroom appointments either! the revolving door between "regulators" and
> the "regulated" has cost american taxpayers literally trillions of dollars.
politicians having trillions of our dollars to waste.
This year, the centennial of the 16th Amendment, would be a great time to repeal
it. We don't need a federal government any bigger than it was in 1911.
jim beam
May 5, 2012, 10:41:01 PM5/5/12
to
On 05/05/2012 06:07 PM, John David Galt wrote:
> On 2012-04-14 12:27, jim beam wrote:
>> and i think the most important one, no jumping back and forth with lobbying jobs
>> and boardroom appointments either! the revolving door between "regulators" and
>> the "regulated" has cost american taxpayers literally trillions of dollars.
>
> That "rent seeking" (look it up on Wikipedia) is the inevitable result of
> politicians having trillions of our dollars to waste.
let's be precise about this, it's having trillions of dollars
> On 2012-04-14 12:27, jim beam wrote:
>> and i think the most important one, no jumping back and forth with lobbying jobs
>> and boardroom appointments either! the revolving door between "regulators" and
>> the "regulated" has cost american taxpayers literally trillions of dollars.
>
> That "rent seeking" (look it up on Wikipedia) is the inevitable result of
> politicians having trillions of our dollars to waste.
/accessible/ to them that's the problem, not that they "waste" it.
lobbying by anyone other than a natural person, on their own behalf,
should be illegal. period.
under the current system, lobbying is the highest returning investment
you can make anywhere. literally thousands of dollars paid back for
every single one you invest. because of lobbying, and until lobbying is
restricted as above, this ridiculous institutionalized corruption will
continue.
>
> This year, the centennial of the 16th Amendment, would be a great time to repeal
> it. We don't need a federal government any bigger than it was in 1911.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
Tom $herman (-_-)
May 5, 2012, 11:13:00 PM5/5/12
to
On 5/5/2012 6:34 PM, jim beam wrote:
> On 05/05/2012 02:39 PM, Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:
>> On 4/12/2012 9:53 PM, "jim beam" wrote:
>>>
>> Hey "jim", long time, no "see".
>
> likewise! hope all is well.
>
On the road on two/three wheels, so all is good.
> On 05/05/2012 02:39 PM, Tom $herman (-_-) > wrote:
>> On 4/12/2012 9:53 PM, "jim beam" wrote:
>>>
>> Hey "jim", long time, no "see".
>
> likewise! hope all is well.
>
>
>>> but for fly-by-wire automatics, if you're actually prepared to accept
>>> the bizarre pretzel logic premise that a driver isn't ultimately
>>> responsible for knowing which pedal is which, and you're the member of a
>>> politically appointed committee trying to justify your existence, then
>>> you have to come up with some ideas. the big red button on the dash
>>> labeled "emergency engine cutoff" [like you get on diesels] has probably
>>> been run by people like frod and gotten killed on the basis that it'll
>>> cost them an extra 20 cents per vehicle. [that's someone's $200,000
>>> bonus on a million vehicle production run!] much more likely, this
>>> retardation is the compromise between the political committee's desire
>>> to be seen to be "doing something" and the manufacturer's unwillingness
>>> to spend more on hardware and agreement to implement in software, which
>>> costs them nothing.
>>
>> Well, three of my four Honda's and my Yamaha have a bright red kill
>> switch within easy reach of my right thumb while my hand is on the
>> throttle and/or fingers on the front brake. They even function after
>> being rained on all day while parked outside at work.
>>
>
> indeed - and there's no reason you can't have that on a car. motorcycles
> have the additional advantage of having their fly-by-wire throttles also
> rigged with a cable so that the fly-by-wire mechanism regulates opening,
> but releasing the throttle mechanically snaps them shut, just like
> conventional throttles.
I do not have a motorcycle with an electronic throttle (yet - although a
>>> but for fly-by-wire automatics, if you're actually prepared to accept
>>> the bizarre pretzel logic premise that a driver isn't ultimately
>>> responsible for knowing which pedal is which, and you're the member of a
>>> politically appointed committee trying to justify your existence, then
>>> you have to come up with some ideas. the big red button on the dash
>>> labeled "emergency engine cutoff" [like you get on diesels] has probably
>>> been run by people like frod and gotten killed on the basis that it'll
>>> cost them an extra 20 cents per vehicle. [that's someone's $200,000
>>> bonus on a million vehicle production run!] much more likely, this
>>> retardation is the compromise between the political committee's desire
>>> to be seen to be "doing something" and the manufacturer's unwillingness
>>> to spend more on hardware and agreement to implement in software, which
>>> costs them nothing.
>>
>> Well, three of my four Honda's and my Yamaha have a bright red kill
>> switch within easy reach of my right thumb while my hand is on the
>> throttle and/or fingers on the front brake. They even function after
>> being rained on all day while parked outside at work.
>>
>
> indeed - and there's no reason you can't have that on a car. motorcycles
> have the additional advantage of having their fly-by-wire throttles also
> rigged with a cable so that the fly-by-wire mechanism regulates opening,
> but releasing the throttle mechanically snaps them shut, just like
> conventional throttles.
blue 2012 Honda VFR1200F is tempting), but fail-safe is good on a moto
where any incident at speed generally hurts.
Tom $herman (-_-)
May 6, 2012, 12:48:35 AM5/6/12
to
On 5/5/2012 9:41 PM, jim beam wrote:
> On 05/05/2012 06:07 PM, John David Galt wrote:
>> On 2012-04-14 12:27, jim beam wrote:
>>> and i think the most important one, no jumping back and forth with
>>> lobbying jobs
>>> and boardroom appointments either! the revolving door between
>>> "regulators" and
>>> the "regulated" has cost american taxpayers literally trillions of
>>> dollars.
>>
>> That "rent seeking" (look it up on Wikipedia) is the inevitable result of
>> politicians having trillions of our dollars to waste.
>
> let's be precise about this, it's having trillions of dollars
> /accessible/ to them that's the problem, not that they "waste" it.
> lobbying by anyone other than a natural person, on their own behalf,
> should be illegal. period.
>
As should lobbying by organizations representing the interests of and
> On 05/05/2012 06:07 PM, John David Galt wrote:
>> On 2012-04-14 12:27, jim beam wrote:
>>> and i think the most important one, no jumping back and forth with
>>> lobbying jobs
>>> and boardroom appointments either! the revolving door between
>>> "regulators" and
>>> the "regulated" has cost american taxpayers literally trillions of
>>> dollars.
>>
>> That "rent seeking" (look it up on Wikipedia) is the inevitable result of
>> politicians having trillions of our dollars to waste.
>
> let's be precise about this, it's having trillions of dollars
> /accessible/ to them that's the problem, not that they "waste" it.
> lobbying by anyone other than a natural person, on their own behalf,
> should be illegal. period.
>
funded by foreign governments.
> under the current system, lobbying is the highest returning investment
> you can make anywhere. literally thousands of dollars paid back for
> every single one you invest. because of lobbying, and until lobbying is
> restricted as above, this ridiculous institutionalized corruption will
> continue.
>
can demonstrate a certain level of support should receive free airtime
instead of this being a publicly subsidized cash cow for a few.
Public funding of campaigns would eliminate the bribery of contributions
(which should be limited to amounts the majority could afford, say $10
per election cycle).
Instant run-off voting would be a game changer, since it would remove
3rd party alternatives from the "spoiler" role.
>
>> This year, the centennial of the 16th Amendment, would be a great time
>> to repeal
>> it. We don't need a federal government any bigger than it was in 1911.
>
Nationalizing the Federal Reserve system and issuing debt free money
>> This year, the centennial of the 16th Amendment, would be a great time
>> to repeal
>> it. We don't need a federal government any bigger than it was in 1911.
>
directly instead of letting the banks create debt based money for free
is needed.
> have you written any of your "representatives"?
threatened with blackmail by the likes of Rupert Murdoch (as events in
Great Britain are making clear that Fox News is a front for much more
sinister activities)?
Either a constitutional convention to restore democracy will happen, or
civil war will occur as the greed of the powerful becomes so great that
the people finally wake up and push back. The center will not hold when
people can no longer afford houses, cars, college for their children,
etc, as is already rapidly progressing.
John David Galt
May 6, 2012, 4:07:59 PM5/6/12
to
On 2012-05-05 19:41, jim beam wrote:
> On 05/05/2012 06:07 PM, John David Galt wrote:
>> On 2012-04-14 12:27, jim beam wrote:
>>> and i think the most important one, no jumping back and forth with lobbying jobs
>>> and boardroom appointments either! the revolving door between "regulators" and
>>> the "regulated" has cost american taxpayers literally trillions of dollars.
>>
>> That "rent seeking" (look it up on Wikipedia) is the inevitable result of
>> politicians having trillions of our dollars to waste.
>
> let's be precise about this, it's having trillions of dollars /accessible/ to them that's the problem, not that they "waste" it. lobbying by anyone other than a natural person, on their own behalf, should be illegal. period.
That's stupid and would do nothing to solve the problem. It needs to be illegal
> On 05/05/2012 06:07 PM, John David Galt wrote:
>> On 2012-04-14 12:27, jim beam wrote:
>>> and i think the most important one, no jumping back and forth with lobbying jobs
>>> and boardroom appointments either! the revolving door between "regulators" and
>>> the "regulated" has cost american taxpayers literally trillions of dollars.
>>
>> That "rent seeking" (look it up on Wikipedia) is the inevitable result of
>> politicians having trillions of our dollars to waste.
>
> let's be precise about this, it's having trillions of dollars /accessible/ to them that's the problem, not that they "waste" it. lobbying by anyone other than a natural person, on their own behalf, should be illegal. period.
for anyone to start raising campaign funds while in office, whether for reelection
or to run for a different office.
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