Was Edwards Justified?
Mike Simmons
week. Was Carl Edwards justified in using the bump 'n run at Bristol
Saturday night? Your opinions, please...
IMHO, yes he was. Cuzzin Carl gave Kyle about the gentlest nudge that I
have seen at Bristol. It wasn't a nudge that took him out of the race, just
a notification that I'm coming around. Kyle had to lift momentarily which
allowed Edwards to get around him. Immediately afterwards, Kyle tried the
same technique on Carl with no success. If Kyle had the better car, he
could have caught Edwards during the remaining laps and passed him, but he
didn't. To me the incident was just racin' at Bristol and I suspect the
majority of the fans will feel the same way.
Mike
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
>This will likely be the subject of conversation amongst NASCAR fans this
>week. Was Carl Edwards justified in using the bump 'n run at Bristol
>Saturday night? Your opinions, please...
Yes, he was.
1) That's how Kyle drives.
2) There was no damage to KyBu's car. If he
had the faster machine, he would have been
able to ride Carl's bumper and pay him back.
In other words, I don't rate this the way I rated the
whack that Dale Sr. placed on the quarter panel of
a car passing him a few years back (Bobby Labonte?).
This was the ol' chrome horn played to perfection.
Just a nudge, then a driveaway.
>IMHO, yes he was. Cuzzin Carl gave Kyle about the gentlest nudge that I
>have seen at Bristol. It wasn't a nudge that took him out of the race, just
>a notification that I'm coming around. Kyle had to lift momentarily which
>allowed Edwards to get around him.
Yup.
>Immediately afterwards, Kyle tried the
>same technique on Carl with no success.
In the interview session, Carl pointed that out as part
of his defense ("I did unto him what he has done unto me").
He noted that Kyle's bump had less effect because he
was already in the higher groove. I speculate that
there was also less muscle in it. It seemed pretty
clear to me that Kyle couldn't keep up with Carl on
that last run.
>If Kyle had the better car, he
>could have caught Edwards during the remaining laps and passed him, but he
>didn't. To me the incident was just racin' at Bristol and I suspect the
>majority of the fans will feel the same way.
I feel kind of bad for Kyle. I am not good at managing
my temper. I wish he had shown more class and taken it
out verbally on Carl instead of playing bumper cars with
him.
It was not "just racin'"--it was excitin' racin'!
Marty
--
Big-8 newsgroups: humanities.*, misc.*, news.*, rec.*, sci.*, soc.*, talk.*
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Megan Zurawicz
observation and/or prediction:
The commentary this week will be overwhelmingly "there ain't nothing wrong
with what Carl did", with some audible under-the-breath "especially since he
did it to Rowdy."
That's the prediction part.
The observation part is, iffen it'd'a been reversed, had Carl been leading
and Kyle done that to him, the commentary from fans would be overwhelmingly
"It was way out of line, NASCAR should suspend him, yada yada...."
Should only matter what's done, not who does it, nor to whom. Reality is
that it does, however, in most folks' minds.....
--pig
On 8/24/08 3:30 PM, in article
jZednYiZwdUDPizV...@supernews.com, "Martin X. Moleski, SJ"
bob.p...@gmail.com
wrote:
> In other words, I don't rate this the way I rated the
> whack that Dale Sr. placed on the quarter panel of
> a car passing him a few years back (Bobby Labonte?).
Close. That was Terry Labonte and you're dead right. There's a huge
difference between nudging a slightly slower car out of the way and
intentionally wrecking a guy.
bob.p...@gmail.com
> Should only matter what's done, not who does it, nor to whom. Reality is
> that it does, however, in most folks' minds.....
Absolutely correct. There was nothing wrong with the way Edwards
nudged Rowdy out of the way to win the race. There was a lot wrong
with what he did to Rowdy after the race.
I don't like Tony Stewart and I do like Jeff Gordon so it was real
easy to think that Tony should have been suspended for spinning Gordon
on the pit road after a race.
I do like Carl Edwards and I don't like Kyle Busch. I'll admit "he
ought to be suspended" wasn't the first thought in my mind this time
around, but the fundamentals of what's right and wrong are the same in
both cases.
I like Edwards, and even though he was definitely provoked, his wallet
deserves to be a few thousand dollars lighter.
Tom Duwe
"Megan Zurawicz" <lis...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:<C4D72615.63AB%lis...@sbcglobal.net>...
> I pretty much agree with everything Marty said, with one additional
> observation and/or prediction:
>
> The commentary this week will be overwhelmingly "there ain't nothing wrong
> with what Carl did", with some audible under-the-breath "especially since he
> did it to Rowdy."
>
> That's the prediction part.
>
> The observation part is, iffen it'd'a been reversed, had Carl been leading
> and Kyle done that to him, the commentary from fans would be overwhelmingly
> "It was way out of line, NASCAR should suspend him, yada yada...."
>
> that it does, however, in most folks' minds.....
>
Good on ya, Megan...both the prediction and the observation. The fans around us,
regardless of *whose* garb they happened to be wearing were delighted (and vocal!)
about the classic bump 'n run, roared when KyB attempted and failed to do the
same, and kept waving the 99 on as he increased his lead to over 2 seconds. The
boos were sounding again when KyB bodyslammed the 99 (twice!) on the cool-down
lap. Then they *roared* when Carl neatly looped him onto the apron.
The big screens had Kyle's face in close-up while Jamie(?) was interviewing him
before the call came to direct him the the Big Truck...booos...the cam switched to
Carl getting out of his car atop the Goodyear building with the nearby fireworks
shooting into the sky...huge cheers...then back to Kyle's face as he was talking
"Mr. Ed" smack...louder boos...missed alot of what was being said over the PA and
the headset.
It truly supported the local lady's sign that made the papers..."Anyone but a
Busch"!!
--
Tom in Bristol
acornct_dad
"Mike Simmons" <mik...@yhti.net> wrote in message
news:GdadnYM17bK01yzV...@posted.yhti...
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
> ... The observation part is, iffen it'd'a been reversed, had Carl been leading
>and Kyle done that to him, the commentary from fans would be overwhelmingly
>"It was way out of line, NASCAR should suspend him, yada yada...."
I wish NASCAR had acted against Dale Sr. in 1999.
It was assault and battery, pure and simple.
TL clearly had the better car.
======== quote ===========
<http://www.nascar.com/2008/news/opinion/08/21/maumann.retro.bristol.dearnhardt.tlabonte/index.html>:
"I didn't mean to turn him around," Earnhardt said as he celebrated a victory that obviously didn't sit well with a majority of
the 140,000 fans in attendance, "but I wanted to rattle his cage."
Later, Earnhardt continued to deny that he wrecked Labonte on purpose.
"I bumped him too hard and turned him loose," he said. "I know he's upset. He has a right to be."
A smoldering Labonte, saddled with an eighth-place finish, wasn't having any of that.
"He never has any intention of taking anybody out," Labonte said. "It just happens that way."
The only question was whether NASCAR officials might penalize Earnhardt for rough driving -- but the decision stood.
"When you're trying to draw the line in regard to winning races, you need to have something more absolute than what we had,"
NASCAR operations director Kevin Triplett said.
And Labonte knew there wasn't any sense complaining about it.
"I wouldn't even waste my time to go down to the trailer and talk to them about it," he said. "We got spun, came back, took the
lead, then got spun again. Guess it just wasn't our night."
======== end quote ===========
I like Formula NASCAR racing. I don't like demolition derbies.
If you can't stay out of bumpin' range at Bristol, you're not
goin' fast enough.
I can't count the number of times I raged at JG for movin'
folks out of the way. He was very smooth about it. I
don't remember anyone being able to catch up and pay him
back--just as happened with Kyle and Carl last night.
Chuck Steak
>The observation part is, iffen it'd'a been reversed, had Carl been leading
>and Kyle done that to him, the commentary from fans would be overwhelmingly
>"It was way out of line, NASCAR should suspend him, yada yada...."
>Should only matter what's done, not who does it, nor to whom. Reality is
>that it does, however, in most folks' minds.....
>
>--pig
And this is the part that pizzes me off the most....
Had Kyle done that to ANYONE, that had been leading
435 laps, he would have been "bottled" to death at the
finish line....
I hate the B&R, I don't care who does it.
If you are faster, then get around.
If you can't, then you ain't that much faster.
If we are to keep saying the faster car is okay to
nudge the guy in front, then why do we race?
Just take the pole guy and give him the trophy...
It isn't all about being the fastest, and having the others
yield to you.
It's about being able to get by...
Dan
****************************************
Defeat isn't falling down.
Defeat is not getting back up......
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
<2412419d-ca80-4079...@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com>:
>Absolutely correct. There was nothing wrong with the way Edwards
>nudged Rowdy out of the way to win the race. There was a lot wrong
>with what he did to Rowdy after the race.
>I don't like Tony Stewart and I do like Jeff Gordon so it was real
>easy to think that Tony should have been suspended for spinning Gordon
>on the pit road after a race. ...
In Carl's defense, the spin didn't take place on pit road.
I thought he showed pretty good technique. I think the police
call it a PIT maneuver:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIT_maneuver
Alvin Fernald
Tom S.
Everybody rages against DE for spinning out Terry, but few mention
that that is exactly how Terry got in front of DE in the first place.
A few laps before Terry pulled a Bump and Run to get around DE. Dale
was able to keep control of his car and came back to pull a B&E on
Terry. Terry lost control of his car.
If you are going to condemn one, you gotta do both.
Tom S.
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
> ... Everybody rages against DE for spinning out Terry ...
Yep, that'd be me. :o)
> ... but few mention
>that that is exactly how Terry got in front of DE in the first place.
>A few laps before Terry pulled a Bump and Run to get around DE. Dale
>was able to keep control of his car and came back to pull a B&E on
>Terry. Terry lost control of his car.
I distinguish between a bumper-to-bumper bump (what CE
did to KyBu and what KyBu did to CE last night) and
a rear quarter-panel whack (what DE Sr. did to
TL and what CE did to KyBu on the cooldown lap).
>If you are going to condemn one, you gotta do both.
Only if they're both true B'n'Rs. Otherwise, I
reserve the right to rage. ;o)
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
>It all depends on who you like, and who you don't.
With the DE Sr. assault on TL, I find it hard to
reconstruct which one I liked (or disliked) more.
With Edwards and KyBu, it's no contest. I'm
a brain-damaged Ford kid. I have the affections
of an eight-year-old for all Ford teams and
drivers. Beyond that, CE is my pick for taking
the Cup this year. I ***NEVER*** saw KyBu
coming when he switched teams.
I like Coach Gibbs.
I'm generally well disposed to all of his
drivers, KyBu included.
But there's no question about my bias when
it's KyBu against any Ford. ;o)
bob.p...@gmail.com
wrote:
>
> In Carl's defense, the spin didn't take place on pit road.
OK, I'll give you that one. Carl didn't really endanger anyone since
there weren't any unprotected crewmen or media types out on the race
track.
However, the original question remains. It's either OK to
intentionally spin someone after the checkers fall or it's not. Your
pro-Ford or anyone else's anti-Busch bias can mold whether you cheered
it or booed it, but it can't be a factor in answering the right or
wrong question.
Your mileage may vary, but I think it's wrong--even when someone I
like does it to someone I don't like.
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
<92eed995-6e97-4ec3...@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>:
>On Aug 24, 6:10 pm, "Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <mole...@canisius.edu>
>wrote:
>However, the original question remains. It's either OK to
>intentionally spin someone after the checkers fall or it's not. Your
>pro-Ford or anyone else's anti-Busch bias can mold whether you cheered
>it or booed it, but it can't be a factor in answering the right or
>wrong question.
>Your mileage may vary, but I think it's wrong--even when someone I
>like does it to someone I don't like.
I agree in principle.
I wish Kyle hadn't started it.
I think Carl got the better of the shoving
match. I don't know whether Kyle will ever
live down the clip of him spinning out as
the fans cheered. I hope he can learn to
let go and laugh it off. He was doing
SO well with handling crowd negativity
earlier in the season.
NASCAR may need to fine them both and put
them both on probation.
But the bottom line for me is that Kyle's
behavior was worse than Carl's, all things
considered.
John Poutre
news:2412419d-ca80-4079...@e39g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 24, 3:57 pm, Megan Zurawicz <list...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> Should only matter what's done, not who does it, nor to whom. Reality is
>> that it does, however, in most folks' minds.....
>
> Absolutely correct. There was nothing wrong with the way Edwards
> nudged Rowdy out of the way to win the race. There was a lot wrong
> with what he did to Rowdy after the race.
>
>
I am confused. It's ok after the race for Idiot Bush to slam Edwards side
for no reason other than Bush being a baby but when Edwards finishes it ON
THE TRACK, that is out of line? I guess we saw 2 different things.
bob.p...@gmail.com
> I am confused. It's ok after the race for Idiot Bush to slam Edwards side
> for no reason other than Bush being a baby but when Edwards finishes it ON
> THE TRACK, that is out of line? I guess we saw 2 different things.
So it seems (your being confused, that is).
I haven't heard anyone say that Busch slamming Edwards on the cool
down lap was OK. The question we've been batting around is whether or
not Carl's retaliation was justified.
Chuck Steak
>...I don't know whether Kyle will ever
>live down the clip of him spinning out as
>the fans cheered. I hope he can learn to
>let go and laugh it off. .
He already has...
>But the bottom line for me is that Kyle's
>behavior was worse than Carl's, all things
>considered.
>
> Marty
I saw them as equal.
They were doing what we see all the time.
Displeasure at a short track.
There are guys off camera, out in the back,
in 28th place, that will put a donut on the side
of someone else's car, and you never see it...
As it did years ago, with Dale,
it does matter the characters involved.
The thing is, people go on and on about it.
It's kind of funny.
NASCAR is loving every minute of it....
Sure... they'll be handing out penalties...
Just to make people happy....
SG
retaliation? Carl started it
Scott Stevenson
<mol...@canisius.edu> wrote:
>On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 11:30:36 CST, bob.p...@gmail.com wrote in
><92eed995-6e97-4ec3...@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com>:
>
>>On Aug 24, 6:10 pm, "Martin X. Moleski, SJ" <mole...@canisius.edu>
>>wrote:
>
>>However, the original question remains. It's either OK to
>>intentionally spin someone after the checkers fall or it's not. Your
>>pro-Ford or anyone else's anti-Busch bias can mold whether you cheered
>>it or booed it, but it can't be a factor in answering the right or
>>wrong question.
>
>>Your mileage may vary, but I think it's wrong--even when someone I
>>like does it to someone I don't like.
>
>I agree in principle.
>
>I wish Kyle hadn't started it.
>
>I think Carl got the better of the shoving
>match. I don't know whether Kyle will ever
>live down the clip of him spinning out as
>the fans cheered. I hope he can learn to
>let go and laugh it off. He was doing
>SO well with handling crowd negativity
>earlier in the season.
>
>NASCAR may need to fine them both and put
>them both on probation.
Kind of like hockey--it doesn't matter who started the fight, both
guys get a five-minute major.
>
>But the bottom line for me is that Kyle's
>behavior was worse than Carl's, all things
>considered.
I agree. A bump and run during a Bristol race is one of those
things that happens. Hip checking a guy after the checkered flag
ain't cool.
take care,
Scott
What's with the hockey metaphors?
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
<48b45c31....@newsgroups.comcast.net>:
> Kind of like hockey--it doesn't matter who started the fight, both
>guys get a five-minute major.
Yes, I thought of hockey, too.
But once the guys know that they're both gonna
get a major, they tend to keep fighting until
they're exhausted. The penalty doesn't ramp up
with time spent fighting, so you may as well try
to get in a good lick before doing your time.
So the penalty doesn't really deter fighting
very much.
Chuck Steak
>So the penalty doesn't really deter fighting
>very much.
>
> Marty
Do they want it to?
Does NASCAR "really" want it to?
bob.p...@gmail.com
wrote:
> I think Carl got the better of the shoving
> match.
Unquestionably. He kept it pointed in the right direction thru the
whole thing.
> I don't know whether Kyle will ever
> live down the clip of him spinning out as
> the fans cheered. I hope he can learn to
> let go and laugh it off. He was doing
> SO well with handling crowd negativity
> earlier in the season.
I don't know if I agree with that. His bowing to the crowd has always
struck me as a rather sarcastic gesture--more like he's trying to
shove it in their faces than win them over. I imagine others may see
that differently, but that's just my take on it.
> NASCAR may need to fine them both and put
> them both on probation.
>
> But the bottom line for me is that Kyle's
> behavior was worse than Carl's, all things
> considered.
Agreed on both counts, but Kyle definitely deserves the bigger fine.
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
>>So the penalty doesn't really deter fighting
>>very much.
>Do they want it to?
>Does NASCAR "really" want it to?
Some stuff, yes, for sure--messing around on
pit road, for example.
Not during the race, for the most part.
They let DE Sr. get away with highway robbery
in 1999. I guess they figure it's good for
the show.
They were moderately severe with Jimmy Spencer
when he slugged KuBu. Or maybe I should
say "adequately." I don't remember any
serious fisticuffs since then.
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
<5eef9271-53c3-42f6...@v57g2000hse.googlegroups.com>:
>> ... He was doing
>> SO well with handling crowd negativity
>> earlier in the season.
>I don't know if I agree with that. His bowing to the crowd has always
>struck me as a rather sarcastic gesture--more like he's trying to
>shove it in their faces than win them over. I imagine others may see
>that differently, but that's just my take on it.
I thought it had a touch of class.
He was acknowledging the boo birds and standing
his ground.
It wasn't vulgar.
I wish he could have finessed this situation at
Bristol. He wasn't funny and he wasn't cool
(to my taste). I hope he can lighten up and
let it go.
Carl has his dark side, too. I hated his
attack on Kenseth a while back. No class
whatsoever to bust up a TV interview like
that. What he was saying was, "It's all
about me." That's ugly. :o(
John Poutre
news:2e3dbdbc-87b7-4138...@r66g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
Well, I think some here ignore Bush's idiotic reaction. Of course Edwards
retaliation was justified, that's just silly to think it's not. I guess if
someone came up to you and punched you in the face, you would shake his
hand. I don't expect many to take your reaction.
Chuck Steak
>Unquestionably. He kept it pointed in the right direction thru the
>whole thing.
Pretty hard to spin when someone rubs against your side...
Much harder to keep it straight when someone slugs your
rear quarter panel.
Like.... impossible.
Megan Zurawicz
do that.
"I acknowledge your attention. I acknowledge your opinion. Just the same,
I am *here* and I *won* and I'm afraid I'm not going to curl up and be
miserable just because you want me to. You're welcome to feel any way you
want to about me, but you *are* going to have to deal with me one way or
another."
Having a theatrical background, I'm actually enjoying the Marcel Marceau
aspect of it tremendously. (the slow and careful measuring out of the
*eight* fingers to hold up.....) The boy's becoming a fairly decent mime.
It's hard to teach anger management, especially to someone who actually has
things mostly going their own way to the tune of millions of dollars into
their pocket before the age of 25. But if anyone can do it, Joe Gibbs
can---he's certainly been there and done that before. As near as I can tell
sitting way out here in fan-land, one of the less mentioned things Smoke has
in common with the Busch boys is a frustrated racer daddy who does none too
well in anger management himself, and who used his boys in part as a second
chance at his own dreams.
Probably a major factor in the similarities in their personalities.
Kurt's gotten a lot better. I expect Kyle will too by the time he gets
anywhere near Smoke's age: let's remember there's fourteen years' age
difference there.
--pig
On 8/26/08 3:30 AM, in article
lYadncr7r6ZwCS7V...@supernews.com, "Martin X. Moleski, SJ"
">G< ©"
> In article bob.p...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Unquestionably. He kept it pointed in the right direction thru the
>> whole thing.
>
> Pretty hard to spin when someone rubs against your side...
>
> Much harder to keep it straight when someone slugs your
> rear quarter panel.
> Like.... impossible.
>
sounds like you're opposed to any contact ;-)
--
>G< �
F S
must remember that by that time DE had been wrecking people for 20 years
with no action taken.
Chuck Steak
not at all.
But there is a very distinct difference in how you get hit,
and the ability to keep it straight...
Carl isn't a better driver, in this case, than Kyle,
because he didn't spin out...
There were two very different 'love taps'....
Martin X. Moleski, SJ
> ... there is a very distinct difference in how you get hit,
>and the ability to keep it straight...
>Carl isn't a better driver, in this case, than Kyle,
>because he didn't spin out...
>There were two very different 'love taps'....
There were actually four total, and each was
different.
In the race:
1. CE hit KyBu and eventually took the lead.
KyBu definitely wiggled, allowing Carl to get
his nose under him and complete the pass.
2. KyBu hit CE. CE didn't wiggle as much (?)
because he was already in a higher line (?),
according to his post-race interview. KyBu
got alongside of CE, but eventually fell back.
After the race:
3. KyBu sideswiped CE twice. No loss of
control of the car. Very likely it caused
a loss of temper control (speculation).
4. CE hit KyBu in the rear quarter panel.
KyBu spun (ninety degrees?) and CE cleared
him pretty handily. A fine demonstration
of the PIT maneuver, though not a good
example to small boys and men who have not
grown up yet.
I don't think 1 or 4 say anything about
KyBu's skills as a driver. 2 & 3 raise
questions about anger management and
judgment. His post-race interviews say
a lot about his need to gain at least a
public relations sense of humor. If he
had said, "After the race, I tried to
explain to Carl that I didn't like him
honking the chrome horn at me," it might
have gained him a lot more fans. Carl's
straightforward explanation of why he
hit KyBu (hit #1), without apology,
scored more public relations points with
me than KyBu's rant.
Bottom line for me: I was very entertained
by the whole thing. I'm interested to see
what's gonna happen between the two for the
rest of the season--and the rest of their
careers. More power to 'em!
acornct_dad
"Mike Simmons" <mik...@yhti.net> wrote in message
news:GdadnYM17bK01yzV...@posted.yhti...
> This will likely be the subject of conversation amongst NASCAR fans this
> week. Was Carl Edwards justified in using the bump 'n run at Bristol
> Saturday night? Your opinions, please...
>
> IMHO, yes he was. Cuzzin Carl gave Kyle about the gentlest nudge that I
> have seen at Bristol. It wasn't a nudge that took him out of the race,
> just a notification that I'm coming around. Kyle had to lift momentarily
> which allowed Edwards to get around him. Immediately afterwards, Kyle
> tried the same technique on Carl with no success. If Kyle had the better
> car, he could have caught Edwards during the remaining laps and passed
> him, but he didn't. To me the incident was just racin' at Bristol and I
> suspect the majority of the fans will feel the same way.
>
> Mike
>
>
John Poutre
news:2LKdnXThy6ArWivV...@supernews.com...
Dead on, nothing more to add. Well written.