Michael Andretti in 1993
axlerunner
Would Ron have given him the boot at the end of 1993 even though he was
beginning to improve? Afterall, Mika did not fare much better in his first
10 or so races with McLaren.
Did the constant travelling back and forth to the US make a bad impression
on the F1 community and lead to all the negativity around him?
For the non-US fans: Did Michael's performance affect your view of American
drivers as a whole?
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Kevin Bitz
"axlerunner" in message
> Some questions for the F1 gurus re Michael Andretti's 1993 season:
>
> Would Ron have given him the boot at the end of 1993 even though he was
> beginning to improve? Afterall, Mika did not fare much better in his
first
> 10 or so races with McLaren.
bunch. Ron should have sacked him for that alone. He improved a bit, but
it would have taken at least one more season before he would be consistent.
It didn't work out for either party.
> Did the constant travelling back and forth to the US make a bad impression
> on the F1 community and lead to all the negativity around him?
If the F1 community had a thought about it; it was probably that he was a
bit foolish.
>
> For the non-US fans: Did Michael's performance affect your view of
American
> drivers as a whole?
>
another interesting question, however, about fathers and sons.
Matt Pope
news:3d21bffd$1_...@news.newsgroups.com:
> Some questions for the F1 gurus re Michael Andretti's 1993 season:
>
> Would Ron have given him the boot at the end of 1993 even though he
> was beginning to improve? Afterall, Mika did not fare much better in
> his first 10 or so races with McLaren.
Could have sworn in his first full season with McLaren he earnt 4th in the
championship, in a car with an awful motor. That's a little bit better than
Mikey, isn't it?
> Did the constant travelling back and forth to the US make a bad
> impression on the F1 community and lead to all the negativity around
> him?
Well, maybe. What led to his demise was a lack of testing, and the ability
to find a wall or a car at almost every opportunity...
> For the non-US fans: Did Michael's performance affect your view of
> American drivers as a whole?
Nah, just confirmed my views of Michael Andretti.
--
Cheers,
Matt Pope
Douglas Ellison
> For the non-US fans: Did Michael's performance affect your view of
American
> drivers as a whole?
Basically, yeah.
In that year - the F1 World champion went to america and made them look like
amateurs, and one of the best americans came here and was made to look like
an amateur
Doug
Hans V
news:3d21bffd$1_...@news.newsgroups.com...
> Some questions for the F1 gurus re Michael Andretti's 1993 season:
>
> Would Ron have given him the boot at the end of 1993 even though he was
> beginning to improve? Afterall, Mika did not fare much better in his
first
> 10 or so races with McLaren.
>
> Did the constant travelling back and forth to the US make a bad impression
> on the F1 community and lead to all the negativity around him?
>
> For the non-US fans: Did Michael's performance affect your view of
American
> drivers as a whole?
>
driver, alllthough nowhere near Senna, if circumstances had been different.
He did however decide to continue living in the US and travel back and forth
to races and the few tests he did. The McLaren staff judged this as a lack
of commitment, gave him little testing time, especially before the season,
so he pretty much started out on the wrong foot. Being teamed with Senna
surely didn't help. But in all fairness McLaren was probably a bit at fault
as well - they should have prepared him better and made some demands from
him. It rather smells like Bernie forced an American with a famous name upon
Ron. And allthough the end of his season looked a bit promising he hadn't
delivered and made a lot of expensive and for his mechanics work demanding
crashes. This didn't exactly improve his status in the team. So with a
superfast and highly motivated Mika on hand it was a no-brainer for Ron.
Hans
Daz
"axlerunner" <axler...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d21bffd$1_...@news.newsgroups.com...
> Some questions for the F1 gurus re Michael Andretti's 1993 season:
>
> Would Ron have given him the boot at the end of 1993 even though he was
> beginning to improve? Afterall, Mika did not fare much better in his
first
> 10 or so races with McLaren.
Beginning to improve? Well he sure as hell could'nt of got worse.
If I recall correctly, Mika outqualified Senna in his first race for
McLaren.
Andretti couldn't keep it on the track long enough to set a decent time.
> Did the constant travelling back and forth to the US make a bad impression
> on the F1 community and lead to all the negativity around him?
> For the non-US fans: Did Michael's performance affect your view of
American
> drivers as a whole?
>
No. Just Indycar (champcars whatever) drivers.
RIP
"Matt Pope" <matt...@bigpond.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9240D11D89C2ma...@139.134.5.33...
> "axlerunner" <axler...@hotmail.com> spat out
> news:3d21bffd$1_...@news.newsgroups.com:
>
> > Some questions for the F1 gurus re Michael Andretti's 1993 season:
> >
> > Would Ron have given him the boot at the end of 1993 even though he
> > was beginning to improve? Afterall, Mika did not fare much better in
> > his first 10 or so races with McLaren.
>
> Could have sworn in his first full season with McLaren he earnt 4th in the
> championship, in a car with an awful motor. That's a little bit better
than
> Mikey, isn't it?
>
so it wasnt all that bad
Matt Pope
news:Z_lU8.43433$GY1....@news.easynews.com:
Senna was a lot better than Andretti, as was Berger.. for F1 standards...
I'll shut up now.. I'm drunk...
--
Cheers,
Matt Pope
Pete Fenelon
> Some questions for the F1 gurus re Michael Andretti's 1993 season:
>
> Would Ron have given him the boot at the end of 1993 even though he was
> beginning to improve? Afterall, Mika did not fare much better in his first
> 10 or so races with McLaren.
>
Probably. Peugeot were keen to place Alliot with the team for '94, plus
Ron had Hakkinen. Michael was not enjoying F1.
> Did the constant travelling back and forth to the US make a bad impression
> on the F1 community and lead to all the negativity around him?
Yes, it seemed to give the impression that F1 was something Michael
thought he could do on almost a "part-time" basis.
A lot of the negativity seemed to be directed towards Michael's (then?)
wife - she was (to put it euphemistically) "very American".
His performance did suffer because of testing restrictions in '93 though.
>
> For the non-US fans: Did Michael's performance affect your view of American
> drivers as a whole?
>
Personally? No. At the time, I felt that Michael, Little Al, and even
Paul Tracy all deserved a go at F1. Had Michael done it properly, I
think he might have succeeded.
pete
--
pe...@fenelon.com "serious sport has nothing to do with fair play" - orwell
Barry Posner
What are you on? We are speaking of Hakkinen's first full season in a
Maclaren, which was 1994, when the Maclaren was powered by the Peugeot
motor. Which kept blowing up with remarkable ease.
bp
paulinho
Red car ( cant say that word ).
In Europe ( Donnington ) he was smashed out by a black and silver sabur
( spelling ) i think it was Wendler lol.
He blew up a few times and that was it i think, Senna didn`t share info
and Mansell went on to clean up in the USA in a car Michale Andrex spent
about 2/3 years devloping lol.
He wouldn`t of made it though.
Shame as it was the case with Zanardi, great driver, but didn`t
understand carbon brakes and groved tyres, i think if you stuck a lot of
these F1 drivers in a Champ car they wouldn`t do well ( Johnny Herbert
cough ), although the cream always comes to the top... say Senna when he
tested Fittipaldys ( spelling again ) car, he was quicker than any one
in about 2-3 laps.....
Barry Posner
axlerunner wrote:
>
> Some questions for the F1 gurus re Michael Andretti's 1993 season:
>
> Would Ron have given him the boot at the end of 1993 even though he was
> beginning to improve?
Ron *did* give him the boot before the end of the season. And he wasn't
improving. His famous podium at Monza was in an attrition-filled race
(only 10 cars finished), and as it was he was a lap down.
> Afterall, Mika did not fare much better in his first
> 10 or so races with McLaren.
Wrong. In his first 10 races in a McLaren, Hakkinen average a 5th place
on the grid. He was on the podium for both races he finished. He spun
off once, crashed once, and had six mechanical failures.
In his first ten races, Andretti averaged a 9th on tyhe grid, spun off
three times, collided three times, and had finishes of 5th, 6th, 8th and
14th. And he had a motor that was capable of winning races, which the 94
Peugeot was not.
> Did the constant travelling back and forth to the US make a bad impression
> on the F1 community and lead to all the negativity around him?
No. His dismal performance led to the negativity.
> For the non-US fans: Did Michael's performance affect your view of American
> drivers as a whole?
Only if you're an idiot.
bp
Opus One
wrote:
>axlerunner <axler...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> Some questions for the F1 gurus re Michael Andretti's 1993 season:
>> Would Ron have given him the boot at the end of 1993 even though he was
>> beginning to improve? Afterall, Mika did not fare much better in his first
>> 10 or so races with McLaren.
>>
>
>Probably. Peugeot were keen to place Alliot with the team for '94, plus
>Ron had Hakkinen. Michael was not enjoying F1.
>
>> Did the constant travelling back and forth to the US make a bad impression
>> on the F1 community and lead to all the negativity around him?
>
>Yes, it seemed to give the impression that F1 was something Michael
>thought he could do on almost a "part-time" basis.
He wasn't allowed to test: That was exclusively Mika's role.
>A lot of the negativity seemed to be directed towards Michael's (then?)
>wife - she was (to put it euphemistically) "very American".
>
>His performance did suffer because of testing restrictions in '93 though.
Practice restrictions.
>> For the non-US fans: Did Michael's performance affect your view of American
>> drivers as a whole?
>>
>
>Personally? No. At the time, I felt that Michael, Little Al, and even
>Paul Tracy all deserved a go at F1. Had Michael done it properly, I
>think he might have succeeded.
He did it the only way McLaren would let him: Having been foist upon
the team by Bernie he was set up to fail.
MJF
Karl
<axler...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Some questions for the F1 gurus re Michael Andretti's 1993 season:
>
>Would Ron have given him the boot at the end of 1993 even though he was
>beginning to improve? Afterall, Mika did not fare much better in his first
>10 or so races with McLaren.
>
>Did the constant travelling back and forth to the US make a bad impression
>on the F1 community and lead to all the negativity around him?
>
>For the non-US fans: Did Michael's performance affect your view of American
>drivers as a whole?
Mickey and Sandy go to Europe............"Traitorville," "Gay Paree
and cheeseburgers," "Pancho Villa's wife." The infamous SI article:
From Sports Illustrated, August 2, 1993
GOING NOWHERE
Michael Andretti, the dominant Indy Car driver of the 1990s, has been
a spectacular failure in his first season in Formula One racing.
by BRUCE NEWMAN
The car engine was revving near its limit when Michael Andretti began
pouring on more power. "Let's see what this thing will do," he
muttered. As the small car wound out to nearly 100 miles per hour, a
stream of tiny Renaults and Peugeots and corpulent lorries from
Germany danced before Andretti's eyes as if on the screen of an arcade
game. He was trying to make up for another bad start, a wrong turn
that took him back through Vichy-the resort that is synonymous with
France's wartime collaboration with the Nazis-instead of out of the
town Andretti now breezily referred to as Traitorville.
Most people go to Vichy for the waters, but as far as Andretti could
tell that morning, they had been misinformed. During the night, a pipe
had burst in his hotel and he had been unable to coax even a trickle
from his shower. This had left him discernibly unbathed for the
three-hour drive to Paris, a drive that would confirm, at least
aromatically, what the European motoring press has been saying about
Andretti's driving for months. With a sixth-place finish in the French
Grand Prix at Magny-Cours the day before, Andretti had just passed the
midpoint of his first season as a Formula One driver, and he felt he
had turned an important corner, even if a voice from the back seat
kept telling him it was the wrong one. "Yesterday I started passing
like I would in an Indy car," Andretti said. "There isn't a single car
in that field that will give you a position-ever-and I was running
into some heavy blocking. But I stood my ground when they tried to put
me in the grass. I kept my foot in it."
Until the race in France, every time Andretti had put his foot in it
this season, he seemed to step into something unpleasant. No American
driver had been more successful in the '90s than Michael Andretti, and
certainly none had seemed better prepared to represent the U.S. on the
F/1 circuit since Mario Andretti, Michael's father, won the world
championship in 1978. Back then, Michael, now 30, had traveled with
his father from the family's home in Nazareth, Pa., to half a dozen
races while Mario was winning the driving championship, and he had
never stopped dreaming of going back, even as he was dominating Indy
Car racing by leading more laps (2,613), sitting on more poles (19)
and winning more races (18) than any other driver in the '90s.At
Sunday's German Grand Prix at Hockenheim, Andretti got away from the
start cleanly, but four laps later he tangled with the Ferrari of
Gerhard Berger and was out of the race. That brought the average
number of laps he has completed in five of the 10 races this season to
just under two. After leading nearly 54% of all Indy Car laps last
year, Andretti had not even competed in half of the laps run in F/1
this year.
In Andretti's first three Formula One races, he failed to navigate the
first lap with the rest of the field even once, and talking about him
was practically all anyone in F/1 could do. He was granted a small
indulgence for his March 14 debut at Kyalami, South Africa, after his
McLaren-Ford stalled due to a faulty clutch and he was left sitting on
the starting grid as everyone else roared away. But there was much
grumbling about the fact that when he did finally get moving in that
race, he completed only four laps before colliding with Great
Britain's Derek Warwick. Then came first-lap crashes in successive
races: in Brazil on March 28-where Andretti's car pinwheeled into a
barrier, nearly decapitating Berger-and two weeks later at the Grand
Prix of Europe in Donington, England. By then the press was in
full-throated howl.
After the San Marino Grand Prix on April 25, where Andretti spun off
after he couldn't reach a cockpit knob that balances the car's brakes,
the howlers knew no bounds. "They crucified me," Andretti says.
Michael's wife, Sandy, amplifies this: point later at a sidewalk cafe
in Paris. Fingering one of her giant gold Chanel earrings, Sandy says,
"They've crucified my; husband like Jesus Christ on the cross."
Michael and Sandy Andretti had never: been to Paris-or "gay Paree" as
he kept calling it, insinuatingly-until they rendezvoused there after
the French Grand Prix. The French was only the second F/1 race that
Sandy had missed, and as the pit-lane gossips pointed out, they were
the same two races in which Michael scored his only championship
points of the year. The couple's visit to Paris had been arranged by
Michael's friend Jean-Francois Thormann, an American who once lived in
Paris and was now trying fiercely to show off the City of Light to two
people who made it clear that they care nothing about good
restaurants, don't like museums and hate to walk
.
"I admit it," Michael says, attempting to order a cheeseburger and
fries at an outdoor cafe near the Eiffel Tower, "I'm a totally spoiled
American.'' The waiter, summoning up that grand Gallic hauteur that
the French seem to reserve for the un-French, says it is impossible to
have ze chizbirgair, only ze hombirgair, despite a menu from which you
can practically scrape the fromage "You have to be a little more
arrogant the way you do things here, Andretti says. "If you're a nice
guy, they eat you alive. They lose respect for you. You can't wait for
things to come to you, because they don't."
At Maguy-Cours, after starting from the 16th spot, Andretti steadily
improved his position throughout the race, frequently with bold
overtaking maneuvers. At the end he held back the charging
Ligier-Renault of Martin Brundle, helping to preserve teammate Ayrton
Senna's fourth-place finish. And yet several times after the race
Andretti remarked, "I just didn't want to do anything stupid" and "I
didn't want to screw up"-not exactly the Lyrics to the Andretti family
fight song
.
.France also marked the fourth time in eight races that Andretti's car
had miseries at the starting line. McLaren was late getting this
year's car built, and a series of electronic problems were responsible
for the cancellation of tests that would have allowed Andretti
valuable experience in an F/1 car. "Going into my first race, I didn't
know what I was doing," he says. In the first standing start of his
career, at Kyalami, his clutch broke, and at Donington the throttle
stuck wide open during his last warm-up lap before the race. On that
occasion Andretti nursed the car back to the pits and jumped in the
backup car only to have the radiator on the second car begin to leak.
The mechanics were still fastening the bodywork to the car as Andretti
was being pushed away for the parade lap.
At the Canadian Grand Prix on June 13, a dead battery was the culprit,
and by the time Andretti left the pits the race was three laps old.
And in France his car's engine sputtered to a stop while he was
completing his final warmup lap. The problem was fixed, and he arrived
on the grid with a minute to spare. Following that race, and. after
three madcap days in Paris, Sandy asked to be taken to a fashion show,
but there weren't any; Sandy begged to go to a disco, but Michael
didn't want to go; they rode the bateau-mouche up and down the Seine;
and they ordered room service a lot-Michael arrived in Silverstone,
England, for the July 11 British Grand Prix Looking depressed and
worried. From McLaren's home base in Woking, there had come the first
rumblings that the team might not renew its option on Andretti's
contract next year.
At a lunch with the German-speaking press on the Friday before the
race, McLaren boss Ron Dennis was asked why he would keep three
drivers-Andretti, Senna and Mika Hakkinen, a prospect from Finland who
has been testing for McLaren this year. The question was meant to be
about Hakkinen's future, but Dennis quickly asserted that the Finn
"will race a McLaren," then added the sort of intriguingly political
coda for which F/1 is justly famous. "As a company, we pride ourselves
on fulfilling our legal and moral commitments to drivers," Dennis
said. "If any driver did not complete a season in a McLaren car for
which he was contracted, it would only happen by mutual agreement."
Was this the sound of the other shoe dropping?
A few days later Dennis is saying, "I don't think Michael's enjoying
Formula One, and it's probably hurting his career. If he chose to talk
to me about going back to [Indy Cars], I wouldn't wave a contract at
him. It was that fact, rather than the opposite-that I'm considering
replacing him-that I was trying to convey to him." Conveying it to him
in person seems not to have been an option. "We haven't really
talked," Andretti says. "He's so busy, you hardly even see him on race
weekends...." His voice trails off. He isn't even convincing to
himself.
"He's been struggling a bit," Dennis says, "which has caused him to
try too hard, leading to more mistakes and a level of desperation that
he's put into his approach. Am I disappointed in Michael's
performance? Yes, of course I am. But I think any disappointment I
feel is overshadowed by his own disappointment in himself. I still
have a belief in Michael, because his performance in America justifies
that belief. My pressure comes from the people who support the team
financially. I was keen to give Michael a chance. I've given Michael a
chance."
Part of the McLaren strategy to give Michael a chance at Silverstone
was to keep Sandy far out of sight. She made a brief appearance at
McLaren's hospitality suite on the Thursday before the race, succeeded
in annoying both an executive from Philip Morris's F/1 racing division
and a U.S. TV crew that wanted to interview Michael, then left and did
not return to the racetrack the rest of the week. Unlike the wives of
Indy Car drivers, the wives of Formula One are expected to be neither
seen nor heard. And from the moment she arrived at the South African
Grand Prix, wearing a body-hugging suit in a leopard-skin pattern,
Sandy Andretti was both. "One guy wrote that she looked like Pancho
Villa's wife," Michael recalls, and other descriptions seemed to fall
somewhere between Darling Jill of God's Little Acre and Wily May
Clampett of The Beverly Hillbillies. Her shopping expeditions became
the stuff of legend: Gidget gets a Gold Card. "It's her way of seeing
the city," Michael says. "She doesn't buy that much." "I've always
been that way since I was three years old," Sandy explained one day in
Paris. "Besides, I don't think they dress very well over here at all."
"The glitz is just insecurity," Dennis says of Sandy's attire. "I've
told her that she doesn't need all that makeup and the flamboyant
clothes, that she's very attractive without all that. She had strong
views about how she was going to attack
Formula One, and perhaps that led to a bit of overkill with regard to
her contribution to the team. She's an extraordinarily nice person
whom I like a lot. She's just misguided. There are occasions when I
feel Michael needs the freedom to improve his performance in Grand
Prix racing."
For the benefit of those not wearing a translator's headphones at
home, that last remark was meant to cordially disinvite Sandy Andretti
from the McLaren pits. "I was treated so differently here, I was,
like, confused," Sandy says. "I came in assuming women are, part of
the team the way they are in Indy Car racing. I would say that I was
going up on the pit wall, and they'd say, 'Oh, no, you're not. You
need a special pass for that.' So I told them to get me one. I feel I
should be on that wall. That's the way it's always been. "In Indy
Cars, the wives are important members of the team, aren't they,
Michael?" Sandy says as her husband chews his hamburger. "They sit on
the pit wall and time their husbands' laps, and they are treated with
respect, aren't they, Michael? Aren't they, Michael? Michael?"
But Michael is lost-spinning, spinning, spinning-his thoughts on the
track. "The car," he says, "has to be an extension of your body, and
I'm still searching for that. It's not fear. It has nothing to do with
fear. You have to have enormous confidence in these cars. When-you get
into a corner, you have a ton of grip. But then there's a point at
which you can lose the grip just like that. You have to commit
yourself to staying on the throttle. I have not proved to myself that
the car will stick. Once I do it, I'll know."
He has had to unlearn much Of what he knew, and it has cost him
confidence. When he spun out at Donington, he says, "I started to pass
[Karl] Wendlinger, but then I hesitated. I had no confidence at that
point. I second-guessed my move, and as soon as you do that you're
finished. I started to go with my instincts, and then I stopped."
Two races later, on May 9, he earned his first championship points
with a fifth at Spain. With an eighth-place finish in Monaco on May
23, a gritty 14th in Canada three weeks later and "the best sixth of
my life" in France, Andretti had seemed to be regaining his poise.
Then at the British Grand Prix, he made another disastrous mistake.
Starting from the middle of the pack, Andretti had immediately shot
past two cars when he suddenly overreacted to a pinching move by the
Ferrari of Jean Alesi and spun off into the-sand just past the
starting line. Dennis later called it a "silly mistake", and it might
well have been one that makes it tough for any other American driver
to find a future in Formula One anytime soon. "I would definitely love
to go F/1 racing," says Al Unser Jr., the winner of the 1992 Indy 500
who had a test with the powerful Williams team last year. "But with
Michael's rookie performance so far, it makes it difficult."
.
There has been talk of Mario Andretti's trying to form an Indy Car
team with Toyota in 1995 so that he and Michael can be teammates again
"In a lot of ways I'd like to go back home, and in a lot of ways I'd
like to stay," Michael says, still spinning, spinning, spinning. "It's
going to come together soon, I know it is. There are a lot of races
left. I'm not ready to throw in the towel yet." Might as well roll up
the windows and step on the gas. Let's see what this thing will do.
James Connors
> He did it the only way McLaren would let him: Having been foist upon
> the team by Bernie
<pause>
> he was set up to fail.
<guffaw>
Idiot.
That makes as much sense as . . . well, I leave you to it.
--
Cheerie-vederci . . .
j a m e s
Angels can fly because they take themselves lightly.
-- Gilbert Keith Chesterton
Alan Jones
>> Did the constant travelling back and forth to the US make a bad impression
>> on the F1 community and lead to all the negativity around him?
>The travel back and forth severely limited his testing time and it showed.
>If the F1 community had a thought about it; it was probably that he was a
>bit foolish.
The only time he was allowed in the car was during race practice.
Certainly, his commuting from the US via Concorde did not endear him to
the establishment. Nor did his wife's comments on French clothing.
--
Alan Jones
Against stupidity the very gods themselves contend in vain.
"We constantly aim to enhance all outcomes."
Opus One
<sp...@return-to-sender.com> wrote:
>Opus One wrote:
>> He did it the only way McLaren would let him: Having been foist upon
>> the team by Bernie
> <pause>
>> he was set up to fail.
>
> <guffaw>
>
> Idiot.
>
> That makes as much sense as . . . well, I leave you to it.
Yes; Doesn't make much sense at all, does it?
Yet, when it's 'Ferrari crippling Rubens'; it seems to some as
unassailable as the speed of light.
MJF
Damon Hynes
> I think it was more like, Brazil smashed out by a weaving Begger in a
> Red car ( cant say that word ).
I like Mike, but Berger wasn't weaving...
> In Europe ( Donnington ) he was smashed out by a black and silver sabur
> ( spelling ) i think it was Wendler lol.
Karl never touched him.
> He blew up a few times and that was it i think, Senna didn`t share info
I can't say for sure, but I don't think this to be the case. Again, nothing against Mikey, but prolly debriefs were Senna speaking Latin and Mikey hearing Sanskrit...
> and Mansell went on to clean up in the USA in a car Michale Andrex spent
> about 2/3 years devloping lol.
Mike said he was leaving the best car in CART...
What people want out of an American driver is someone who speaks like A. J. and throws the rear end out like Tony Stewart in a Sprinter. That won't work in F1, anymore. A successful American in F1 will sound and drive like a successful F3/F3000 driver of any nationality.
--
Damon Hynes -- Waste of Bandwidth
http://home.att.net/~damonhynes/
"Just as sure as gravity
No one escapes this law...
There's just one way that you can stand
Too many ways to fall..."
--Arc Angels
Nebraska news women -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NebraskaInfoWomen/
Marny Stanier -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/TheMarnyStanierAppreciationSociety/
CNBC women -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/cnbcinfowomen/
Sue Herera -- http://groups.yahoo.com/group/sueherera/
DeCesaris
"RIP" <sp...@spamnot.com> wrote in message
news:Z_lU8.43433$GY1....@news.easynews.com...
I think you'll find the customer ford engine was shit at best. Around 12 mph
slower at max speed than the 1993 Benetton at hockenheim.
Races were won that year because of driving skill, ala donington.
.
j...@goku.library.emory.edu
> Shame as it was the case with Zanardi, great driver, but didn`t
> understand carbon brakes and groved tyres, i think if you stuck a lot of
> these F1 drivers in a Champ car they wouldn`t do well ( Johnny Herbert
> cough ), although the cream always comes to the top... say Senna when he
> tested Fittipaldys ( spelling again ) car, he was quicker than any one
> in about 2-3 laps.....
>
I think Zanardi was from the "old school" of driving. A lot of the things
that he was very good at wasn't applicable to the modern F1 cars. He
couldn't adapt to the cars because what the car needed to go fast was
probably "unnatural" to him.
From what I read, Senna and Zanardi had similar sentiments over the
Champ Car configuration.
--
Jiann-Ming Su js...@bellsouth.net
"The stupid are continuing to breed and have figured a way to get elected."
--web message board
j...@goku.library.emory.edu
> Some questions for the F1 gurus re Michael Andretti's 1993 season:
>
> Would Ron have given him the boot at the end of 1993 even though he was
> beginning to improve? Afterall, Mika did not fare much better in his first
> 10 or so races with McLaren.
>
> Did the constant travelling back and forth to the US make a bad impression
> on the F1 community and lead to all the negativity around him?
>
The commuting didn't help, that's for sure.
> For the non-US fans: Did Michael's performance affect your view of American
> drivers as a whole?
>
Al Unser Jr. would have been a better ambassador at the time. Andretti
did not adapt well to the rigors of F1. He should have been more focused.
There are still American drivers who can compete in F1, but NASCAR is
eclipsing everything else right now. Jeff Gordon said he couldn't make
the transition a few years ago because he would want to start at the lower
formulas. So, even though he has the talent, he understands the commitment
required to succeed. Andretti was born with the silver name in his mouth.
Paul
Pope <matt...@bigpond.com> writes
>
>I'll shut up now.. I'm drunk...
>
--
Paul B
Paul
<tif...@mindspring.com> writes
>On Tue, 02 Jul 2002 14:38:02 -0600, James Connors
><sp...@return-to-sender.com> wrote:
>>Opus One wrote:
>>> He did it the only way McLaren would let him: Having been foist upon
>>> the team by Bernie
>> <pause>
>>> he was set up to fail.
>>
>> <guffaw>
>>
>> Idiot.
>>
>> That makes as much sense as . . . well, I leave you to it.
>
>Yes; Doesn't make much sense at all, does it?
>
>Yet, when it's 'Ferrari crippling Rubens'; it seems to some as
>unassailable as the speed of light.
>
Ferrari are crippling Rubens for sure. Not that he needs much crippling,
does a good job of being second-rate all by himself.
--
Paul B
Paul
<kar...@ak.net> writes
<major snip>
Interesting, thought-provoking article. Many thanks for posting it here,
Karl.
--
Paul B
Matt Pope
Uni holidays serve one purpose, and one purpose only. My liver will be very
angry at me in later life, however.
FORZA FERRARI... WTF am I doing?
--
Cheers,
Matt Pope
Loops
>Red car ( cant say that word ).
>In Europe ( Donnington ) he was smashed out by a black and silver sabur
>( spelling ) i think it was Wendler lol.
>He blew up a few times and that was it i think, Senna didn`t share info
>and Mansell went on to clean up in the USA in a car Michale Andrex spent
>about 2/3 years devloping lol.
This reminds me of one of those unofficial or unlicensed Formula One computer
games, where they aren't allowed to use real drivers or team names due to
copyright issues or whatever... so they use names that are "very similiar"....
blluuurrghhh
Tom Hiett
> "Kevin Bitz" <kb...@cfl.rr.com> writes:
> >> Did the constant travelling back and forth to the US make a bad impression
> >> on the F1 community and lead to all the negativity around him?
> >The travel back and forth severely limited his testing time
A common myth. One doesn't merely open a door and drive onto a track like
Jim Hall did with the Chaparrals. Testing for a modern F1 team takes
advanced scheduling, planning and logistics. He was available like any
other driver living/vacationing elsewhere in the world would have been to
be at the appointed place, ready to go. I fact, he only signed for McLaren
after substantial testing was assured. Once Senna came on board Dennis
told Andretti he wasn't paying Hak to do nothing and he would be test
driver.
Of course the root of the whole lack of testing goes back to Dennis
dragging out the Renault engine deal, botching it in December, scrambling
to get second string customer Fords, then insisting they use proprietray
TAG engine management, being unable to convince Senna to stay hence the
hiring of Hakkinin, which all led to the complex (fully active era), late
arriving and troublesome MP4/8, which Senna desribed as "diabolical" and
"had a fundemental flaw that couldn't be fixed". Somehow in the Andretti
F1 fumble everyone forgot how badly Dennis fumbled.
> I thought that was the year the FIA had the "no testing" rule.
> The only time he was allowed in the car was during race practice.
Pre-race practice was halved, and tires limited. That was his only chance
to get aqainted with most of the courses.
Tom
Tom Hiett
> This reminds me of one of those unofficial or unlicensed Formula One computer
> games, where they aren't allowed to use real drivers or team names due to
> copyright issues or whatever... so they use names that are "very
similiar"....
They could be legit and licensed but just not for particular drivers, like
Tamiya F1 models that are legit licensed Ferrari products but Schumacher's
name absent from the decal sheet.
Tom
axlerunner
he felt.
Axleruuner
"Karl" <kar...@ak.net> wrote in message
news:ll14iuo91vmovfc9t...@4ax.com...
Tom Hiett
> Mickey and Sandy go to Europe............"Traitorville," "Gay Paree
> and cheeseburgers," "Pancho Villa's wife." The infamous SI article:
Note that SI is the same rag that later featured a photo spread of blood
stained sheets covering bodies after the spectator deaths at MIS and has
published anti racing articles in the past.
Tom
Paul
<thi...@iastate.edu> writes
reported at the time.
--
Paul B
Opus One
Q.E.D.
MJF
RIP
">
> I think you'll find the customer ford engine was shit at best. Around 12
mph
> slower at max speed than the 1993 Benetton at hockenheim.
> Races were won that year because of driving skill, ala donington.
> .
VIII HB as Benetton and that included Hockenheim so if the McLarens were 12
mph slower then it wasnt the engine LOL
DeCesaris
Benetton blocked EVERY move for Mclaren to have the latest V8 ford engine.
Benetton was Ford's factory team and only they had access to the latest
engine. Mclaren gave up by the Spanish GP and decided to further develop the
awful customer ford engine. From Silverstone Mclaren had introduced it's
own air-valve system for the customer Ford engine. At the next race in
Hockenheim, benetton was using the new pneumatic-valve Ford V8, which put
the Mclaren engine far down on hp.
Vesku
says...
> Some questions for the F1 gurus re Michael Andretti's 1993 season:
>
> Would Ron have given him the boot at the end of 1993 even though he was
> beginning to improve? Afterall, Mika did not fare much better in his first
> 10 or so races with McLaren.
Mika didn't do very well? Only qualified ahead of Senna the first time
he got in the McLaren. Andretti was losing a second a qualifying lap.
> Did the constant travelling back and forth to the US make a bad impression
> on the F1 community and lead to all the negativity around him?
That and his horrible on-track performance.
> For the non-US fans: Did Michael's performance affect your view of American
> drivers as a whole?
Well, that didn't help. Mansell took the trip on the other direction and
won the CART championship easily.
/vesku
Richard Harding
Opus One wrote:
>
(snip)
>
> He wasn't allowed to test: That was exclusively Mika's role.
>
>
Sorry to have to correct you, Mark, but if you watch the BBC documentary
"The Team - a season with McLaren" you will see extensive footage of
Andretti testing.
Senninha
wrote:
>What are you on? We are speaking of Hakkinen's first full season in a
>Maclaren, which was 1994, when the Maclaren was powered by the Peugeot
>motor. Which kept blowing up with remarkable ease.
That's not a comparison, it's a different car. You should compare the
1993 car, with which Michael was comprehensively humbled by Senna, but
with which Mika was instantly there or thereabouts on pace.
Senninha
<hans....@NOSPAMcappit.no> wrote:
>He's undoubtedly talented and could probably have been a very decent F1
>driver, alllthough nowhere near Senna, if circumstances had been different.
>He did however decide to continue living in the US and travel back and forth
>to races and the few tests he did. The McLaren staff judged this as a lack
>of commitment, gave him little testing time, especially before the season,
>so he pretty much started out on the wrong foot.
Point is that for the first three (four? five?) races he didn't finish
a lap - that is not down to pace or practice, just racing ability. He
was trying too hard to compensate some perception I guess.
>> Being teamed with Senna surely didn't help.
From a comparative point of view perhaps not, but all his teammates
have had that problem, as have Schumacher's, Prost's etc. However
Michael said Senna was an excellent team-mate, supported him a lot,
and no-one better to learn from.
>But in all fairness McLaren was probably a bit at fault
>as well - they should have prepared him better and made some demands from
>him.
This is the only point I really disagree on - why should you need to
motivate a "world" champion? I think Bernie got a "coup" to
counterbalance Nige leaving, and the commitment was lacking.
Eventually McLaren needed to motivate him, but that shouldn't be
automatic (you can imagine Senna wouldn't be exactly encouraging them
to do so, indeed even taking their mind off it with the race-to-race
deals etc).
Barry Posner
Senninha wrote:
>
> On Tue, 02 Jul 2002 15:14:34 -0400, Barry Posner <bup...@psu.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >What are you on? We are speaking of Hakkinen's first full season in a
> >Maclaren, which was 1994, when the Maclaren was powered by the Peugeot
> >motor. Which kept blowing up with remarkable ease.
>
> That's not a comparison, it's a different car. You should compare the
> 1993 car, with which Michael was comprehensively humbled by Senna, but
> with which Mika was instantly there or thereabouts on pace.
I'm not the one who brought up "Hakkinen's first ten races or so".
Somebody else did. The fact is, Hakkinen was much better in his first
ten races, even when 7 of them were with a dog of an engine.
bp
wssente...@gimmiemorespam.com
> In article <3d21bffd$1_...@news.newsgroups.com>, axlerunner wrote:
>
> > For the non-US fans: Did Michael's performance affect your view of American
> > drivers as a whole?
>
> Al Unser Jr. would have been a better ambassador at the time. Andretti
> did not adapt well to the rigors of F1. He should have been more focused.
Comparing Unser and Andretti in CART, Unser was even worse in qualifying
than Mikey. And in a series where qualifying is all important, I can't
see Unser would have impressed anyone. He's a plodder compared to
Mikey. Just look at them now - Both past their best, but Mikey can
still mix it with the young guns, whereas Unser is plodding around at
the mid to tail end of an IRL grid.
--
Cheers
Wayne "Dark 1" Stuart
_Todd
<wssente...@gimmiemorespam.com> wrote in message
news:1fetf24.skv2t11yv8e8N%wssente...@gimmiemorespam.com...
When they were both at the top of their game Unser was twice the driver
Andretti was. I always hoped it would have been Little Al who went to F1.
He would have done a great job.
--
_Todd
"I keep looking around to see where Princess Leia is, but sadly, she's
never in the pit lane"-James Allen
http://www.toddflanders.netfirms.com
j...@goku.library.emory.edu
><j...@goku.library.emory.edu> wrote:
>
> Comparing Unser and Andretti in CART, Unser was even worse in qualifying
> than Mikey. And in a series where qualifying is all important, I can't
> see Unser would have impressed anyone. He's a plodder compared to
> Mikey. Just look at them now - Both past their best, but Mikey can
> still mix it with the young guns, whereas Unser is plodding around at
> the mid to tail end of an IRL grid.
>
Unser definitely hasn't aged gracefully, but I think his tempermant would
have resulted in a much more successful first year in F1 than what Andretti
put himself through. In his prime (early 90s), he was one of the better
drivers around and definitely one of the best American drivers. I remember
him teaching Villeneuve a couple of moves at Portland.
The reality is that Andretti isn't nearly as competitive as he once was.
He's lagging his teammates and definitely not mixing it up with the fast
guys like DaMatta and Junquiera.
wssente...@gimmiemorespam.com
If there was capacity for an extensive two car testing session, then,
and only then, did Mikey get some milage. This was one such time. The
bulk of them time was down to Mika, and Mika alone. The story was that
being as Ron was paying for this very expensive test drive, then he was
damn well going to use him whenever they could!
IIRC, Mikey was actually setting better times than Mika on this
particular session. Well who'd have guessed that?
wssente...@gimmiemorespam.com
> In article <3d21bffd$1_...@news.newsgroups.com>, axler...@hotmail.com
> says...
>
> > For the non-US fans: Did Michael's performance affect your view of American
> > drivers as a whole?
>
> Well, that didn't help. Mansell took the trip on the other direction and
> won the CART championship easily.
Hardly easy. Apart from that first race on the streets of Surfers
Paradise, every win Nige had was on the ovals.
In fact, that Australian win was very lucky: A stop/go penalty for
passing under yellow, but at the time, the rules didn't distinguish
between a pitstop and a stop/go, so this so called penalty was served
while he took his pitstop. This wouldn't be allowed to happen today.
The Lola Ford combination had been developed over the past couple of
years (ironically by Andretti) to be very competitive. Indycar being
Indycar though, they were all very close. The Lola Ford combination at
the time was a very capable oval racer, but possibly not the machine to
have for the streets/roads - That was the Penske.
It was actually closer than the figures might show, and things may not
have turned out so well for Nige has he had better competition that year
- A well past his sell by day Emerson Fittipaldi, Unser in a slightly
off the pace team, Tracy young & hungry, but clumsy & inconsistant,
Mario in his 50s, and Mikey not there.
Nigel - Right place, right time. Mikey - Right place, wrong time.
Just look at the year after. Despite getting a fair few poles, Nige was
nowhere. The Penske steamroller had sorted out their oval
competitivness, they got Unser, Tracy was another year older, the
writing was on the wall. Plus Villeneuve was up and coming, and Mikey
was back - All things considered, our Nige took his ball and went home.
wssente...@gimmiemorespam.com
> On Tue, 02 Jul 2002 15:14:34 -0400, Barry Posner <bup...@psu.edu>
> wrote:
>
> >What are you on? We are speaking of Hakkinen's first full season in a
> >Maclaren, which was 1994, when the Maclaren was powered by the Peugeot
> >motor. Which kept blowing up with remarkable ease.
>
> That's not a comparison, it's a different car. You should compare the
> 1993 car, with which Michael was comprehensively humbled by Senna, but
> with which Mika was instantly there or thereabouts on pace.
That's what thousands of miles of testing will do for ya! - A luxury
Mikey didn't get.
wssente...@gimmiemorespam.com
> wssente...@gimmiemorespam.com wrote:
> >
> > Comparing Unser and Andretti in CART, Unser was even worse in qualifying
> > than Mikey. And in a series where qualifying is all important, I can't
> > see Unser would have impressed anyone. He's a plodder compared to
> > Mikey. Just look at them now - Both past their best, but Mikey can
> > still mix it with the young guns, whereas Unser is plodding around at
> > the mid to tail end of an IRL grid.
>
> Unser definitely hasn't aged gracefully, but I think his tempermant would
> have resulted in a much more successful first year in F1 than what Andretti
> put himself through. In his prime (early 90s), he was one of the better
> drivers around and definitely one of the best American drivers. I remember
> him teaching Villeneuve a couple of moves at Portland.
>
> The reality is that Andretti isn't nearly as competitive as he once was.
> He's lagging his teammates and definitely not mixing it up with the fast
> guys like DaMatta and Junquiera.
Certainly, but he can still spring the odd surprise on the youngsters -
On his day, he's still a threat, but unfortunately the legendary
Andretti bad luck is still alive and well.
axlerunner
> still mix it with the young guns, whereas Unser is plodding around at
> the mid to tail end of an IRL grid.
In all fairness to Al Jr., while he may be past his prime and is driving
against lesser competition, he is currently 5th in the IRL points standings
while Mike is 10th in CART.
TC
"axlerunner" <axler...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3d24e86b$1...@news.newsgroups.com...
> > Just look at them now - Both past their best, but Mikey can
> > still mix it with the young guns, whereas Unser is plodding around at
> > the mid to tail end of an IRL grid.
>
> In all fairness to Al Jr., while he may be past his prime and is driving
> against lesser competition, he is currently 5th in the IRL points
standings
> while Mike is 10th in CART.
>
>
That's this year, MA didn't do all that bad last year in CART (why am I
defending him?), and both of them are getting old, Al Jr. blew chunks in the
IRL last year. The IRL buffs that I read still think that MA should move
over to the IRL and win the IRL 500, because "it's his destiny".
Sure, he's led more laps in his career than all of the winners in the past
many years combined, and hasn't been there again until this year, and he's
old.
He's had some great races in CART, and last year won the Toronto Indy from
last place when he got involved in a shunt at the start. Attrition isn't
everything, and he did have do pull it together last July to win that one,
on a really bullshit track for passing.
I just wish these guys would grow up and do what Jean Alesi and the late
lamented Michale Alboretto did, go Sportscar racing, or something like DTM.
TC
TC
"spider-mr-clean" <spi...@in.the.web.invalid> wrote in message
news:am89iuom4o80b3is7...@4ax.com...
> On Thu, 04 Jul 2002 01:40:42 GMT, Vesku <vesa_t...@hotmail.com>
> wrote:
>
> >:) Well, that didn't help. Mansell took the trip on the other direction
and
> >:) won the CART championship easily.
>
> And lost the first race the next year to Michael Andretti who was
> driving a Reynard in it's first ever CART race.
>
> Nothing is ever as simple as many writers here think.
>
> --
>
> //\\(o^o)//\\ (Mr Smart Ass)
At the time, the US ESPN was spending way too much time on shots of Mike's
wife while he was in F1, with the bloody hat, and the US coverage wasn't
paying any attention to the less than attractive wife of Nige and lots to
Emmo's wife and so on. There is no doubt that the image of racing was the
"wives" in US TV for both. Niges wife was dedicated and had an incredible
history, much like Johanne Villeneuve, but less cute.
So it goes.
TC
Moa Dib
wrote:
>That's what thousands of miles of testing will do for ya! - A luxury
>Mikey didn't get.
He would have had a few hundred miles every weekend if he'd learnt to
keep it on the black stuff.
Still, he was no closer at the end of the season, by which time he had
racked up a few thousand miles, than he was at the start. Mika was on
Senna's pace instantly, albeit a somewhat lacklustre Senna, and only
in qualifying.
John
Moa Dib
<spi...@in.the.web.invalid> wrote:
>Yup all true and Senna howled and whined every chance he got about it
>too.
...meanwhile winning five times as many races as Schumacher, despite
having the inferior engine...
It's his job to moan. He is a big name to whom someone like Ford may
bow to the pressure. If Ron Dennis says something in the press about
Ford it is construed as business and can be negative for McLaren. If
Senna says it he is more likely to get airtime and column inches, and
it is considered more "fair" as Ford are seen as denying a sporting
competition.
That's part of the driver's job. Same way DC complains about Schumi's
weaving, or MS complains about DC's ramming. They don't expect it to
make a difference then, but it gets people thinking on your side and
creates a groundswell of opinion that could later help you.
Moa Dib
wrote:
>Hardly easy. Apart from that first race on the streets of Surfers
>Paradise, every win Nige had was on the ovals.
Still, methinks you belittle it too much.
Mansell in F1 was a real tigerish driver, and no-one expected him to
win on the ovals before he started the season. The fact that he did,
in his first season, speaks volumes. Remember too it was only
inexperience, ironically at ovals, that cost him the Indy 500 win
also, as he was swamped on the restart.
Mikey was the opposite - great on street circuits, expected to do
well, and he totally failed to shine. There can be many reasons in
many different proportions, but I personally believe that the lion's
share has to go to Michael - he didn't dedicate enough. No testing? In
life you get what you negotiate - if Senna wanted to test do you think
he would be denied? If he hadn't identified that he would need to test
and secured that right before going, he can hardly complain.
>In fact, that Australian win was very lucky: A stop/go penalty for
>passing under yellow, but at the time, the rules didn't distinguish
>between a pitstop and a stop/go, so this so called penalty was served
>while he took his pitstop. This wouldn't be allowed to happen today.
You race to the rules that are in force. End of story. You can equally
say he was unlucky, as he presumably wouldn't intentionally pass on
yellow unless he knew the rules and could take advantage of such a
loophole.
>It was actually closer than the figures might show, and things may not
>have turned out so well for Nige has he had better competition that year
>- A well past his sell by day Emerson Fittipaldi, Unser in a slightly
>off the pace team, Tracy young & hungry, but clumsy & inconsistant,
>Mario in his 50s, and Mikey not there.
So who did Mikey have? Prost in the Williams, Schumacher in the
Benetton, and Senna. That was it, and Senna managed five wins - the
car was far from incapable.
wssente...@gimmiemorespam.com
> On Thu, 4 Jul 2002 21:38:11 +0100, wssente...@gimmiemorespam.com
> wrote:
>
> >:) Comparing Unser and Andretti in CART, Unser was even worse in qualifying
> >:) than Mikey.
>
> The reason for this is that Al never put effort into a qualifying
> setup. He felt that anywhere in the first six rows was sufficient for
> any car with a good race setup.
>
> His feelings were that a lot of energy expended in qualifying left
> less for the race so he would use all pre-race sessions to maximize
> his race setup.
That's all well and good on the ovals, in a series where overtaking is
possible, or where FCY strategy can pay big dividends to those on the
ball... Would such a strategy work in F1 however? Doubtful.
> It's easy to make silly comparisons. Al won Indy twice and Mike never
> has so Al must be the better driver.
I can't think of anyone in Indycar/Champcar who has had more bad luck
than Mikey. On a performance basis, Mikey should be at last a 3 times
champion by now with multiple Indy 500 titles under his belt. He is one
of the winningest drivers on the CART circuit, but if he'd have won
every race he's dominated, he would probably be top dog by now.
But 'if' is a very big word, isn't it?
And as for 500 wins - The 1st year Al Jr won the 500, that should have
been Mikey's - Again the echo of "...and Michael Andretti is slowing on
the back stretch..." ringing around the circuit. Al Jr's 2nd win?... We
all remember why that was, don't we? Mercedes Panzer ring any bells?
> Actually Al was asked to drive the street circuit at Detroit one year
> but the FIA wouldn;t allow anyone in CART to compete in F1 at that
> time.
>
> Danny Sullivan's reaction to that was that it was silly to think that
> anyone of Unser's capability was unqualified to drive an F1 car. Dan
> Gurney was also commentator for that race and seemed to agree.
>
> Those were the years that F1 seemed truly spooked by the rapid
> expansion of CART and that's what really did it, I think.
Whatever happened to those day? Oh yes... Tony "Wanker" George
happened! <shrug>
wssente...@gimmiemorespam.com
> On Thu, 4 Jul 2002 22:52:43 +0100, wssente...@gimmiemorespam.com
> wrote:
>
> >Hardly easy. Apart from that first race on the streets of Surfers
> >Paradise, every win Nige had was on the ovals.
>
> Still, methinks you belittle it too much.
>
> Mansell in F1 was a real tigerish driver, and no-one expected him to
> win on the ovals before he started the season. The fact that he did,
> in his first season, speaks volumes. Remember too it was only
> inexperience, ironically at ovals, that cost him the Indy 500 win
> also, as he was swamped on the restart.
I remember that. He learned from that and won most of the oval races
the rest of the year with more than a helping hand, it could be argued,
from the Lola Ford and Mikey's setups.
> Mikey was the opposite - great on street circuits, expected to do
> well, and he totally failed to shine.
Talking of street circuits, we'll never know how Mikey would have done
at Monaco - Starting from the pit lane lap(s) down, he was never going
to impress anyone.
> There can be many reasons in
> many different proportions, but I personally believe that the lion's
> share has to go to Michael - he didn't dedicate enough. No testing? In
> life you get what you negotiate - if Senna wanted to test do you think
> he would be denied? If he hadn't identified that he would need to test
> and secured that right before going, he can hardly complain.
Situations beyond his control. How could he anticipate when he signed
that Ron would also sign an additional surplus to requirements driver
who would eventually turn out to be a very expensive test driver? Many
times he expressed displeasure at not getting more testing, but Ron
obviously wasn't listening - He had his own agenda not compatible with
Mikey's needs.
And as for Senna, Ron would have got him the Moon if he'd have asked for
it just to keep him on board! Mikey was expendable - Senna wasn't.
> >It was actually closer than the figures might show, and things may not
> >have turned out so well for Nige has he had better competition that year
> >- A well past his sell by day Emerson Fittipaldi, Unser in a slightly
> >off the pace team, Tracy young & hungry, but clumsy & inconsistant,
> >Mario in his 50s, and Mikey not there.
>
> So who did Mikey have? Prost in the Williams, Schumacher in the
> Benetton, and Senna. That was it, and Senna managed five wins - the
> car was far from incapable.
Mikey's competition was Ron, and the legendary Andretti bad luck.
Ian
Could Michael have insisted he get testing? NO! Ron hired Mika for an
amazing $1mm a year to do 99% of all the testing that year. Does Ron
listen to anyone? NO. Just recently Rahal/Jaguar had Newey to a signed
legal contract and what happened? Lauda said OK I will tear up the
contract..... So here is a multiworld Champion and Pres of PAG Motor
Sports (includes Cosworth/Jaguar F1 team etc etc etc 100% owned by
Ford) backing down to Ron. Oh Yeah and AS told Ron he personally rated
Michael and thought he had super potential and was extremely fast. Did
Ron listen to this multi-world Champion? NO!
So could Michael have insisted on more testing and won his way ? NO!
On Masell yes he was a fantastic racer on Ovals. Why? Because he
always had raw speed and he was incredibly brave (caused him one hack
of a back injury at the Milwakee Mile in practise that year). Yes he
could have won the Indy 500 but he did get caught on the restart
totally agree. Funny thing is that he would have NOT won the CART
CHampionship that year had it ben solely on the results of the road
circuits. He simply wasn't the best on what was considered his best
circuits. Mighty strange isn't it? My conclusion is that Nige won that
year's Championship because of raw speed and bravery on Ovals, but he
hadn't fully accimatized to the different cars and this showed up on
his rad results which required more car control, again his strength
usually. So even the great Nige needed a peroid of adjustment between
F1 and CART. Just as Michael needed a period of adjustment and which
Ron Dennis did not allow.
How good would Michael have been in a second year of F1? We will never
know.
j...@goku.library.emory.edu
>
> That's all well and good on the ovals, in a series where overtaking is
> possible, or where FCY strategy can pay big dividends to those on the
> ball... Would such a strategy work in F1 however? Doubtful.
>
Given that attrition is still prevelant in F1, finishing the race is a damn
good start for a first year effort. Right now, Montoya is showing a good
qualifying run doesn't equate to good race results. It's sad to see Unser Jr.
where he's at now given how good he was in his prime.
Mark J. Frusciante
wrote:
Don't go wasting facts on these despicable bigots.
"Extensive footage"...
Yeah, 'he tested for almost a whole hour on the Beeb'...
MJF
Richard Harding
> On Thu, 4 Jul 2002 22:52:39 +0100, wssente...@gimmiemorespam.com
> wrote:
> >Richard Harding <rhar...@optonline.net> wrote:
> >> Opus One wrote:
> >> (snip)
> >> > He wasn't allowed to test: That was exclusively Mika's role.
> >>
> >> Sorry to have to correct you, Mark, but if you watch the BBC documentary
> >> "The Team - a season with McLaren" you will see extensive footage of
> >> Andretti testing.
> >
> >If there was capacity for an extensive two car testing session, then,
> >and only then, did Mikey get some milage. This was one such time. The
> >bulk of them time was down to Mika, and Mika alone. The story was that
> >being as Ron was paying for this very expensive test drive, then he was
> >damn well going to use him whenever they could!
> >
> >IIRC, Mikey was actually setting better times than Mika on this
> >particular session. Well who'd have guessed that?
>
Sorry to disappoint you but you recall wrong, as I have just re-watched
the whole series on video. The test session that gets the most coverage
in this documentray is one at Silverstone, with Senna and MA both
driving. There is an interesting contrast between their inputs to
their engineers. MA says, "The new engine is still no good. It's still
not strong enough". Senna says "The new engine is a big step forward.
There's a big improvement between 11,000 and 11,500 and there's another
100rpm on the straight. It's not pefect but it's a big step forward."
Richard Harding
shot over the entire season. But then you never were one to let the
facts get in the way of your opinions were you, Mark.
wssente...@gimmiemorespam.com
I wasn't aware there was a whole series. All I saw was the bit they
showed on the Beeb. On this bit, I don't recall Senna being at this
test session at all - It was just Mikey & Mika. And I do remember that
Mika was having a confidence crisis and wasn't getting the times, and
they queried what was happening on the other side - Mikey's side - and
they were doing just fine. That's a bit that sticks in my mind that
showed Mikey in a favorable light.
guy_felten
with the wrong company.
He had to fit into a team already centered and did not really get a
chance to learn the F1 ropes properly because he had come with a slight
misunderstanding which was to treat F1 a bit like CART where F1 is more
demanding both in terms of preparation and presence.
But equally important was that all of it was heavily influenced by his
then wife who felt F1 was not exactly her cup of tea, where she was
"only" the new boy's wife, that F1 was getting in the way of her
shopping and she let hubby know and feel that every minute, and that she
insisted of flying to the States every minute that her husband was not
sitting in the car.
Not only was she no help, she was a big pain in the seat which as we all
know is a place to be treated carefully for its importance to car
handling and having a pain there didn't help his driving and team
communication. Some cynics say that had he divorced her at the right
time, i.e. before F1, he might have stayed far longer.
Personally, I believe circumstances and the wrong company kept him from
ever fully realizing his potential in F1.
Guy
---------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.solforum.com Practical, simple, spamless and free
Damon Hynes
There was a story which came to light in the 1992-93 off-season that Mario had been in Europe trying to get Mikey a deal, and his idea was for Mikey to drive for Ferrari--and ask for a $9mm USD salary!
In hindsight it makes more sense than Mikey driving for McLaren--that way Ferrari could rebuild while Mikey was learning. Lower expectations for both the team and driver.
--
Damon Hynes -- Waste of Bandwidth
http://home.att.net/~damonhynes/
"Just as sure as gravity
No one escapes this law...
There's just one way that you can stand
Too many ways to fall..."
--Arc Angels
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guy_felten
> There was a story which came to light in the 1992-93 off-season that Mario had been in Europe trying to get Mikey a deal, and his idea was for Mikey to drive for Ferrari--and ask for a $9mm USD salary!>
Uh, I never heard that one.
Must be a track legend, no? Mario could not have been that blue-eyed to
believe his son would be paid to be a rookie in a Ferrari. And
definitely not 9 mio. And very definitely not if the team was offered a
driver. Also, if I remember correctly, that would have made him the
second or third-highest paid driver at the time (behind AS at 1mio a
race).
The 92/93 Ferraris were dogs anyway. If he had driven one without at
least one year's experience, he would have looked really bad compared to
Berger and Alesi who were specialists in moving junk very fast.
But thanks for telling me. It could well be one of these stories that
are not necessarily reflecting a pure truth, but tell a whole lot about
a driver and his environment in a specific time and why everything went
wrong.
Alan Jones
>Mikey was the opposite - great on street circuits, expected to do
>well, and he totally failed to shine. There can be many reasons in
>many different proportions, but I personally believe that the lion's
>share has to go to Michael - he didn't dedicate enough. No testing? In
>life you get what you negotiate - if Senna wanted to test do you think
>he would be denied? If he hadn't identified that he would need to test
>and secured that right before going, he can hardly complain.
IIRC it was not as simple as that.
In one of its attempts to level the playing field, the FIA had put
severe restrictions on testing after the season started.
Since MA was not hired until close to the start of the season, he had
very little time in the car (cf JV when he moved over) and was
effectively blocked from doing more.
--
Alan Jones
Against stupidity the very gods themselves contend in vain.
"We constantly aim to enhance all outcomes."
Tom Hiett
> IIRC, Mikey was actually setting better times than Mika on this
> particular session. Well who'd have guessed that?
According to the Americans in GP book by Tim Considine, Hak never beat
Andretti any day they tested together.
Tom
Opus One
<rhar...@optonline.net> wrote:
>The whole series was condensed from several hundred hours of footage
>shot over the entire season.
So there are several hundred hours of testing footing, or perhaps
something else? They showed how many hours of testing, they showed
how many hours of Michael? They informed you of the ratio of footage
of Michael testing shown to raw footage of Michael testing, gave you
the breakdown on those figures relative to Mika and Ayrton?
>But then you never were one to let the
>facts get in the way of your opinions were you, Mark.
Show me a fact. Bigot.
MJF
Scott Willsey
<rhar...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>
>There is an interesting contrast between their inputs to
>their engineers. MA says, "The new engine is still no good. It's still
>not strong enough". Senna says "The new engine is a big step forward.
>There's a big improvement between 11,000 and 11,500 and there's another
>100rpm on the straight. It's not pefect but it's a big step forward."
One thing to keep in mind about this is that Senna had already learned
the need for political motivation when it came to the car. He'd
already been down the "car bashing" road before, so to speak. By the
time Andretti came along, Senna had learned to motivate for further
improvement by thanking the engineers for what improvements had been
given already.
Not to insinuate that Senna was not in a whole nother class from
Andretti, but he was from most drivers. And he did support Andretti at
McLaren, unlike almost everyone else.
S.
Barry Posner
Scott Willsey wrote:
> One thing to keep in mind about this is that Senna had already learned
> the need for political motivation when it came to the car. He'd
> already been down the "car bashing" road before, so to speak. By the
> time Andretti came along, Senna had learned to motivate for further
> improvement by thanking the engineers for what improvements had been
> given already.
Remionds me of when Capelli went to Ferrari. The first time he drove
their new car, he found it to be horrible, and said so, thinking that
honesty was the right way to go.
Then Alesi comes in, and starts going on about how wonderful the car
was, blah blah blah. Instantly, Alesi was the darling of the team and
Capelli was viewed as an outsider.
It's all about knowing when to lie, I s'poae.
bp