A bitter victory for Ferrari
Suzieflame
So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned from
the WC.
But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer the
consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
I predict that McLaren and Mercedes will immediately form a breakaway
series, and offer an entirely new cash sharing and technology
structure to other teams willing to join them, freezing Ferrari and
the FIA out entirely. MotoGP is run along the same lines, with the
teams being shareholders in the series.
And where will Ferrari be then? Alone, in Italy, with Mark Frusciante
fulminating abut the unfairness of it all, while everbody else just
enjoys the sport...
Suzie
--
Suzieflame
AC
"Suzieflame" <suzie...@yachtmail.com> wrote in message
news:sp52e39b13q33s3sp...@4ax.com...
I like where you are coming from. I just love a bit of a rebellion.
But I dont see it. Im not exactly sure why the other teams would
follow Mclaren, if Mclaren are found guilty.
Sure I find it ironic that Ferrari of all teams are crying about
spying and cheating, and would love to the see the hypocrites side
lined in some way, but I really dont see it happening.
However, you mension Mercedes. No where have I seen a Merc reaction to
all this. What will Merc do if Mclaren are hung out to dry? How
involved are they? Are they are responsible as Mclaren may be? Can
they go with another team, if so who?
Mercedes seem oddly very quiet. Or have I completely missed this part
of the puzzle?
AC
Paul Ian Harman
news:m99Ei.11260$F77....@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...
> I like where you are coming from. I just love a bit of a rebellion. But I
> dont see it. Im not exactly sure why the other teams would follow Mclaren,
> if Mclaren are found guilty.
Wasn't there already a breakaway series being planned for 2008? IIRC
practically all the manufacturer teams except Ferrari were deadly serious
about it.
Paul
Gongoozler
> So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned from
> the WC.
I greatly fear you are right
> But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer the
> consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
Indeed, but it doesn't seem to matter to Italians whether or not they
win against worthy opposition, they just want to WIN.
I well remember the Austrian GP when Prost crashed his Ferrari on the
warming-up lap - thousands of "fans" streamed out of the circuit
before the race had even begun.
> I predict that McLaren and Mercedes will immediately form a breakaway
> series, and offer an entirely new cash sharing and technology
> structure to other teams willing to join them, freezing Ferrari and
> the FIA out entirely. MotoGP is run along the same lines, with the
> teams being shareholders in the series.
It ain't going to happen. Whether we like it or not, Ferrari are an
essential part of F1
> And where will Ferrari be then? Alone, in Italy, with Mark Frusciante
> fulminating abut the unfairness of it all, while everbody else just
> enjoys the sport...
A lovely thought but, like I say, it ain't going to happen.
--
Trevor
AC
"Paul Ian Harman" <chatt...@doctorwhowebguide.net> wrote in message
news:5kclc0F...@mid.individual.net...
I always took that as a "position" in a negociation. On top of that,
havent they all signed up with Bernie since? If so, I dont see how
they could easily walk away.
And all that was well before the IP issue. If found guilty, then
surely the other teams would be wary of Mclaren. (which makes one
wonder about the Mclaren produced standard ECU issue)
Oh, and can we really see Flav abandoning Bernie? Not a cats chance.
The idea of the teams fucking over Bernie, the FIA and Ferrari does
have huge appeal, but I dont see it happening.
AC
AC
"Gongoozler" <catc...@trevorpavitt.co.uk> wrote in message
news:1189159911.9...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> Suzieflame wrote:
>> So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned
>> from
>> the WC.
>
> I greatly fear you are right
>
>> But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer
>> the
>> consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
>
> Indeed, but it doesn't seem to matter to Italians whether or not
> they
> win against worthy opposition, they just want to WIN.
> I well remember the Austrian GP when Prost crashed his Ferrari on
> the
> warming-up lap - thousands of "fans" streamed out of the circuit
> before the race had even begun.
>
>> I predict that McLaren and Mercedes will immediately form a
>> breakaway
>> series, and offer an entirely new cash sharing and technology
>> structure to other teams willing to join them, freezing Ferrari and
>> the FIA out entirely. MotoGP is run along the same lines, with the
>> teams being shareholders in the series.
>
> It ain't going to happen. Whether we like it or not, Ferrari are an
> essential part of F1
>
Is this really true? Im pretty sure F1 would do just fine with out
Ferrari. And Mclaren for that matter. Perhaps not both though!!!
But I really dont buy this Ferrari are essential line. Just that alone
suggests preferential treatment for Ferrari, which would of course be
most unsporting.........
AC
Bob Dubery
> So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned from
> the WC.
>
> But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer the
> consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
_If_ that's the entirety of what it's about.
If Ferrari feel that they have been the victims of industrial
espionage then of course they should pursue that matter vigorously.
It may be that they know that a championship victory after McLaren
have been excluded (if that's what happens) would be a hollow victory,
but F1 motor racing doesn't exist in isolation from the rest of the
world, and neither would the alleged industrial espionage.
Forget for a moment that it's two F1 teams involved. Consider the two
parties as rich corporations with valuable brands, with massive
investments in technology and logistics and with shareholders who have
paid good money and to whom their are real and serious
responsibilities (which, in fact, is the case here). Now if one of
those companies believes some of it's IP has been illegally obtained
by the other and that this can be proven then wouldn't you expect a
charges to be laid, lawyers to be briefed?
It is possible that Ferrari have at least one eye on what they
consider to be misuse or even theft of their business secrets. If that
is the case and if I were them then you can bet I'd want to sue
somebody's ass to the fullest extent possible.
And, yes, if that had an effect on a sporting championship that I was
involved in and removed my chief rival then that would not be
something that I would enjoy, but hey! It only happened (Topolino and
Co please note that I am talking specutively here - I am not saying it
DID happen) because they had been up to no good in the first place. I
might be prepared to swallow that bitter pill as part of the price of
seeing justice prevail.
The only thing that makes me think that this is not the case, or the
sole case, is that previously when there was a much clearer case
Ferrari instituted (and won) a legal case and did not involve the FIA
at all. This time they have involved the FIA. Why this time and not in
the case of Toyota?
Jon Ross
> Suzieflame wrote:
>> So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned from
>> the WC.
>
> I greatly fear you are right
>
>> But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer the
>> consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
>
>
I am not one for conspiracy theories but IF there is evidence against
McLaren then perhaps they will be told to let Ferrari win both
championships on the track then have their points for the year deducted.
In other words a pseudo punishment similar to MS's over the JV incident.
John Briggs
> "Paul Ian Harman" <chatt...@doctorwhowebguide.net> wrote in message
> news:5kclc0F...@mid.individual.net...
>> "AC" <x...@xxx.xxx> wrote in message
>> news:m99Ei.11260$F77....@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...
>>> I like where you are coming from. I just love a bit of a rebellion.
>>> But I dont see it. Im not exactly sure why the other teams would
>>> follow Mclaren, if Mclaren are found guilty.
>>
>>
>> Wasn't there already a breakaway series being planned for 2008? IIRC
>> practically all the manufacturer teams except Ferrari were deadly
>> serious about it.
>>
>> Paul
>>
>
> I always took that as a "position" in a negociation. On top of that,
> havent they all signed up with Bernie since? If so, I dont see how
> they could easily walk away.
>
> And all that was well before the IP issue. If found guilty, then
> surely the other teams would be wary of Mclaren. (which makes one
> wonder about the Mclaren produced standard ECU issue)
I can envisage a whole grid of cars with no ECUs...
--
John Briggs
Rafael Rodriguez
whole world to know that the only way they were able to win a Championship
after 10 years trying was by plagiarizing a superior team's design and car
set up information?
Would they have been ale to lead the Championship on their own? It did not
look that way at the beginning of the season.
If Ron D. is as honorable as he claims to be he should forfeit the points he
got from the advantage his drivers got from using Ferrari's information.
"Suzieflame" <suzie...@yachtmail.com> wrote in message
news:sp52e39b13q33s3sp...@4ax.com...
>
Phil Carmody
Races where the pumpkins come in 1st and 2nd every weekend?
He'll not be fulminating, it'll be another word ending "-ating".
Phil
--
Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all.
-- Microsoft voice recognition live demonstration
Paul Ian Harman
news:46e14a48$0$10428$4c36...@roadrunner.com...
> If Ron D. is as honorable as he claims to be he should forfeit the points
> he got from the advantage his drivers got from using Ferrari's
> information.
I'm sure he will, all 0 of them
Paul
Luigi Topolino
<thefatphi...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>Suzieflame <suzie...@yachtmail.com> writes:
>> So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned from
>> the WC.
>>
>> But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer the
>> consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
>>
>> I predict that McLaren and Mercedes will immediately form a breakaway
>> series, and offer an entirely new cash sharing and technology
>> structure to other teams willing to join them, freezing Ferrari and
>> the FIA out entirely. MotoGP is run along the same lines, with the
>> teams being shareholders in the series.
>>
>> And where will Ferrari be then? Alone, in Italy, with Mark Frusciante
>> fulminating abut the unfairness of it all, while everbody else just
>> enjoys the sport...
>
>Races where the pumpkins come in 1st and 2nd every weekend?
>He'll not be fulminating, it'll be another word ending "-ating".
McLaren should be allowed to cheat, because they can't win on the
merits?
RBrickston
suzie...@yachtmail.com says...
You've been brainwashed by McLaren's repetitive PR releases:
"McLaren deny any wrongdoing."
Luigi Topolino
Once again you filthy crackpots blame the victim...
Blinding bigoted nationalism: It's still just second rate thinking.
Alessandro D. Petaccia
>
>"Suzieflame" <suzie...@yachtmail.com> wrote in message
>news:sp52e39b13q33s3sp...@4ax.com...
>>
>> So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned
>> from
>> the WC.
>
>I like where you are coming from. I just love a bit of a rebellion.
>But I dont see it. Im not exactly sure why the other teams would
>follow Mclaren, if Mclaren are found guilty.
Exactly. It (allegedly) is industrial espionage we're talking about
here, it has nothing to do with sportsmanship and "the good old days";
quite the opposite, in fact. I really fail to understand why a team
found guilty of that should get away with it.
It is also bizarre how some people seem to believe that Ferrari will
act as the proverbial judge, jury and executioner in this matter when
there are so many different courts, laws and regulations involved.
>However, you mension Mercedes. No where have I seen a Merc reaction to
>all this. What will Merc do if Mclaren are hung out to dry? How
>involved are they?
I've been wondering the same. I find it hard to believe that Merc is
involved (but then, I still find it hard to believe that *McLaren*
is...) but if they're not AND if McL are found guilty, I foresee a
very unpleasant reaction...
ADP.
Suzieflame
<tif...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>Blinding bigoted nationalism: It's still just second rate thinking.
Exactly my point. Thanks for agreeing. And for telling us why you had
to leave academia...
Suzie
--
Suzieflame
Suzieflame
wrote:
Not at all. I just think that if Ferrari want to run & win the series
so badly, let them have their cake and eat crow.
Suzie
--
Suzieflame
RBrickston
suzie...@yachtmail.com says...
Damn that Maranello team. How dare they allow their crystal ball to break
and therefore not be able to prevent Stepny from entrapping that poor
Woking team.
Suzieflame
wrote:
You don't know my record. I'm not a hater of Ferrari, far from it. But
if they think that they are holier than thou when it comes to
gathering competitive information or flaunting rules, well, they need
their own series so they don't have to put up with reaping what they
have sown. Enzo himself was one of the biggest sharks in his day.
Suzie
--
Suzieflame
VK
> > I well remember the Austrian GP when Prost crashed his Ferrari on the
> > warming-up lap - thousands of "fans" streamed out of the circuit
> > before the race had even begun.
>
Well, ddunno about that but it sure as shit aint about racing. This
has to be the most boring F1 season in terms of on-track racing.
V
AC
"noone" <no...@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:noone-A7B07A....@free.teranews.com...
> In article <1189159911.9...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>,
> Gongoozler <catc...@trevorpavitt.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Indeed, but it doesn't seem to matter to Italians whether or not
>> they
>> win against worthy opposition, they just want to WIN.
>
> rivals?
>
>> I well remember the Austrian GP when Prost crashed his Ferrari on
>> the
>> warming-up lap - thousands of "fans" streamed out of the circuit
>> before the race had even begun.
>
>
>
Who on earth under rates Prost?
AC
Bigbird
Foot meet bullet.
I'm sure we all concur with your confession.
--
FB
"Suzieflame" <suzie...@yachtmail.com> escreveu na mensagem
news:sp52e39b13q33s3sp...@4ax.com...
>
> So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned from
> the WC.
>
> But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer the
> consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
>
> I predict that McLaren and Mercedes will immediately form a breakaway
> series, and offer an entirely new cash sharing and technology
> structure to other teams willing to join them, freezing Ferrari and
> the FIA out entirely. MotoGP is run along the same lines, with the
> teams being shareholders in the series.
>
> And where will Ferrari be then? Alone, in Italy, with Mark Frusciante
> fulminating abut the unfairness of it all, while everbody else just
> enjoys the sport...
>
>
> --
> Suzieflame
caught with dirty hands...
if proved... (and I believe it will be)
FB
AC
"John Briggs" <john.b...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:tFbEi.28540$Db6....@newsfe3-win.ntli.net...
Carefully timed for a USGP, just to really piss the yanks off? Sounds
like the sort of cock up current F1 should be able to pull off with
ease.
AC
ocea
> So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned from
> the WC.
>
> But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer the
> consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
>
> I predict that McLaren and Mercedes will immediately form a breakaway
> series, and offer an entirely new cash sharing and technology
> structure to other teams willing to join them, freezing Ferrari and
> the FIA out entirely. MotoGP is run along the same lines, with the
> teams being shareholders in the series.
>
> And where will Ferrari be then? Alone, in Italy, with Mark Frusciante
> fulminating abut the unfairness of it all, while everbody else just
> enjoys the sport...
>
> Suzie
> --
> Suzieflame
Hey, Ferrari can't beat McLaren on track so they will try to beat them
in court. I hope they fail. McLaren have the better drivers and
deserve to win both titles this season. How sad would it be for
Kimi(or Massa) to win his first WDC in court and not on track like
all the previous 28 drivers that won the WDC did? I'm sure Kimi and
Massa want to become champions on track.....
Hal S.
"AC" <x...@xxx.xxx> wrote in message
news:m99Ei.11260$F77....@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...
>
>> the WC.
>>
>> But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer the
>> consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
>>
>> I predict that McLaren and Mercedes will immediately form a breakaway
>> series, and offer an entirely new cash sharing and technology
>> structure to other teams willing to join them, freezing Ferrari and
>> the FIA out entirely. MotoGP is run along the same lines, with the
>> teams being shareholders in the series.
>>
>> And where will Ferrari be then? Alone, in Italy, with Mark Frusciante
>> fulminating abut the unfairness of it all, while everbody else just
>> enjoys the sport...
>>
>>
>> Suzie
>> --
>> Suzieflame
>
> dont see it. Im not exactly sure why the other teams would follow Mclaren,
> if Mclaren are found guilty.
>
> and cheating, and would love to the see the hypocrites side lined in some
> way, but I really dont see it happening.
>
> However, you mension Mercedes. No where have I seen a Merc reaction to all
> this. What will Merc do if Mclaren are hung out to dry? How involved are
> team, if so who?
>
> Mercedes seem oddly very quiet. Or have I completely missed this part of
> the puzzle?
>
> AC
>--------------------------
From the content and one-sided nature of your posts, you've obviously missed
a large part of the puzzle.
--
Hal S.
Hal S.
"AC" <x...@xxx.xxx> wrote in message
>
> "Gongoozler" <catc...@trevorpavitt.co.uk> wrote in message
> news:1189159911.9...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>> Suzieflame wrote:
>>> So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned from
>>> the WC.
>>
>>
>>> consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
>>
>> win against worthy opposition, they just want to WIN.
>> warming-up lap - thousands of "fans" streamed out of the circuit
>> before the race had even begun.
>>
>>> series, and offer an entirely new cash sharing and technology
>>> structure to other teams willing to join them, freezing Ferrari and
>>> the FIA out entirely. MotoGP is run along the same lines, with the
>>> teams being shareholders in the series.
>>
>> essential part of F1
>>
>
> Is this really true? Im pretty sure F1 would do just fine with out
> Ferrari. And Mclaren for that matter. Perhaps not both though!!!
>
> But I really dont buy this Ferrari are essential line. Just that alone
> suggests preferential treatment for Ferrari, which would of course be most
> unsporting.........
>
> AC
>---------------------------
You really are a fanboy and really don't understand motoring.
--
Hal S.
Hal S.
"Jon Ross" <as...@forit.co.uk> wrote in message
news:UYaEi.45606$S91....@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
-------------------
Your tinfoil hat doesn't become you. First you say you're not for conspiracy
theories, but then you present one. Wow, I'll really take you seriously from
now on. Now take your crystals, your pyramid, and......
--
Hal S.
Hal S.
> the WC.
>
> consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
>
> series, and offer an entirely new cash sharing and technology
> structure to other teams willing to join them, freezing Ferrari and
> the FIA out entirely. MotoGP is run along the same lines, with the
> teams being shareholders in the series.
>
> fulminating abut the unfairness of it all, while everbody else just
> enjoys the sport...
>
>
> Suzie
> --
> Suzieflame
-----------------------------------
Since you're making prediction about Mercedes, I'll make one of my own.
Mercedes has been conspicuously silent right from the beginning in this
whole foofraw. There are plenty of other teams out there that would love to
align themselves with Mercedes. McLaren needs Mercedes, but Mercedes doesn't
need McLaren. The driving public buys Mercedes; they don't buy McLarens
--
Hal S.
Tony Gartshore
h.sa...@comcast.net says...
>
>
> -----------------------------------
> Since you're making prediction about Mercedes, I'll make one of my own.
> Mercedes has been conspicuously silent right from the beginning in this
> whole foofraw. There are plenty of other teams out there that would love to
> align themselves with Mercedes. McLaren needs Mercedes, but Mercedes doesn't
> need McLaren. The driving public buys Mercedes; they don't buy McLarens
> --
> Hal S.
Didn't Merc buy a substantial part of McLaren ?
T.
>
>
>
Tony Gartshore
> -----------------------------------
> Since you're making prediction about Mercedes, I'll make one of my own.
> Mercedes has been conspicuously silent right from the beginning in this
> whole foofraw. There are plenty of other teams out there that would love to
> align themselves with Mercedes. McLaren needs Mercedes, but Mercedes doesn't
> need McLaren. The driving public buys Mercedes; they don't buy McLarens
> --
> Hal S.
>
Ah, http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/4645941.stm
(Unless they sold some of their holdings recently.)
T.
>
>
Lloyd
wrote:
> Am I missing something? Wouldn't it be hollow victory for McLaren for the
> whole world to know that the only way they were able to win a Championship
> after 10 years trying was by plagiarizing a superior team's design and car
> set up information?
>
Asserted without fact.
1. You cannot redesign an F1 car in a couple of months.
2. What does it say about Ferrari if, as you claim, McLaren copied
their car and is leading Ferrari in the championship with it?
> Would they have been ale to lead the Championship on their own? It did not
> look that way at the beginning of the season.
>
Every track is different. Some have favored one team and some the
other.
> If Ron D. is as honorable as he claims to be he should forfeit the points he
> got from the advantage his drivers got from using Ferrari's information.
>
And if it's zero?
> "Suzieflame" <suziefl...@yachtmail.com> wrote in message
Lloyd
> On 07 Sep 2007 16:13:04 +0300, Phil Carmody
>
>
>
If you can't outrun them, outlaw them. -- Ferrari motto?
Greg Campbell
> "AC" <x...@xxx.xxx> wrote in message
> news:m99Ei.11260$F77....@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...
>> I like where you are coming from. I just love a bit of a rebellion. But I
>> dont see it. Im not exactly sure why the other teams would follow Mclaren,
>> if Mclaren are found guilty.
>
>
> Wasn't there already a breakaway series being planned for 2008? IIRC
> practically all the manufacturer teams except Ferrari were deadly serious
> about it.
>
> Paul
The GPMA was serious... about forcing Bernie to cough up more $.
All grandiose talk they spewed about 'reform' and 'for the good of the
sport' was shown to be BS when they lined up to take their check.
They really could have forced reforms in the arguably corrupt FIA, but
found it much easier to sell out. That didn't stop Flabio from whining
to high hell when Fred received that BS 'impeding' penalty at Monza last
year. (The first of many similar incidents over the last year.) I can't
help think of the old tale of the Frog and the Scorpion. I rather hope
the whole lot of 'em drown in the river.
RBrickston
It is a simple matter of breaking the rules; rules that are not ambiguous
such as barge boards. It comes down to violating the fundamental basics of
the right of a team to develop their car/systems/etc. without being unduly
encroached upon. Spy photos of cars in the pit lane/garage and on the
track are one thing, but breaking into a teams development facility with
the same camera quite another. Whatever your assumption of Ferrari's
history is, that cannot give a free pass to McLaren if they are determined
to have broken the rules at this inexcusable level.
Suzieflame
wrote:
I would agree with you except that is not what they have done. Nobody
at McLaren sanctioned the breaking and entering of Ferrari.
It is more akin to some Ferrari employees takingpictures in thier own
factory (a habit that they seem to repeat) and sending them to
McLaren.
Now I agree McLaren management should have rebuffed it immediately,
and Coughlan was foolish not to raise it to Ron and have it officially
returned by him, with positive PR put out about how they have returned
Ferrai's IPR etc, and he should pay with his job, in the same way
Stepney has. He failed spectacularly. I mean, knowing Ferrari, you had
to suspect it was a trap of some kind, right? But did McLaren, as a
conscious policy, decide to seek out and use Ferrari IPR? Nobody
serious has suggested that, or been able to prove it.
Iif you think that in a close knit world like F1 that people who drift
from team to team don't share confidential information with other
people, including journos, you are labouring under a misapprehension.
It happens all the time, in any industry. The old adage "loose lips
sink ships" applies - why should McLaren be punished harshly for
Ferrari's loose lips?
A few emails containing Ferrari info are nothing - if they start down
that road, I want to see them asking for all Ferrari emails that
mention Renault or McLaren technology...
Suzie
--
Suzieflame
gs
> that road, I want to see them asking for all Ferrari emails that
> mention Renault or McLaren technology...
Lets see them monitoring all the teams emails, that'd would likely
raise a few eyebrows. Imagine the situation two cars spin off, the
driver of car X looks at car Y in the gravel trap and goes and tells
his engineer in an email what he could see. The engineer then emails
the other engineers and drivers in the team with the settings/
information - they are now using information to setup their cars from
another team. Or two drivers are overheard whilst talking about the
setup of their car and the person that overheard them sends this
information on to his team. Is the whole of the team responsible or
just the person that received the information and used it. If mclaren
had copied the fiat design in full and tried to pass it off as their
own then they would warrant the hatred currently being shown towards
them, at the moment they've done nothing any other team on the grid
would have.
peter
>It is a simple matter of breaking the rules; rules that are not ambiguous
>such as barge boards. It comes down to violating the fundamental basics of
>the right of a team to develop their car/systems/etc. without being unduly
>encroached upon. Spy photos of cars in the pit lane/garage and on the
>track are one thing, but breaking into a teams development facility with
>the same camera quite another.
You do know that Ferrari did exactly that.....break into the Williams
pit garage during a GP (at a time when the Williams car was worth
copying) and spent the whole night photographing the Williams.
>Whatever your assumption of Ferrari's
>history is, that cannot give a free pass to McLaren if they are determined
>to have broken the rules at this inexcusable level.
The bar for rule breaking has already been set very high.....when a
Ferrari driver can deliberately crash into a rival in an attempt to win
the DWC and then get away with it virtually penalty free.
--
Peter
gs
> RBrickston <rb20170REM...@yahoo.com> writes
You have to remember though to some people the rules should only apply
to some of the teams not all.
Suzieflame
<sco...@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> wrote:
>RBrickston <rb2017...@yahoo.com> writes
>>It is a simple matter of breaking the rules; rules that are not ambiguous
>>such as barge boards. It comes down to violating the fundamental basics of
>>the right of a team to develop their car/systems/etc. without being unduly
>>encroached upon. Spy photos of cars in the pit lane/garage and on the
>>track are one thing, but breaking into a teams development facility with
>>the same camera quite another.
>
>You do know that Ferrari did exactly that.....break into the Williams
>pit garage during a GP (at a time when the Williams car was worth
>copying) and spent the whole night photographing the Williams.
When was this, in the Mansell (at Williams) era?
Suzie
--
Suzieflame
peter
Williams found themselves the team with the big target on their back.
The late Dr Harvey Postlethwaite, who was Ferrari's technical director,
admitted that he had been the mastermind behind a clandestine break-in
at the Williams garage during the German Grand Prix in 1980. A group of
Ferrari personnel spent the entire night in the garage, wielding their
tape measures and taking photographs of the car that would win
Australian Alan Jones that year's championship. Ironically, none of the
information gleaned appeared to make any difference to Ferrari."
The Independent 2007
--
Peter
Luigi Topolino
You see punishing McLaren for stealing another Ferrari's technical
information as somehow Ferrari underhandedness?
Says a lot about you and your understanding of fair play...
Luigi Topolino
><tif...@mindspring.com> wrote:
>
>>Blinding bigoted nationalism: It's still just second rate thinking.
On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 16:39:10 +0200, Suzieflame
<suzie...@yachtmail.com> wrote:
>Exactly my point. Thanks for agreeing. And for telling us why you had
>to leave academia...
On 7 Sep 2007 15:54:29 GMT, "Bigbird" <bigbird...@gmail.com>
wrote:
>Foot meet bullet.
>
>I'm sure we all concur with your confession.
Nice to see such sterling Brit-wits collaborating on nothing so
complicated as the infamous "I know you are but what am I" defense,
(C) 1997 Cunliffe.
Perhaps you two could merge accounts and spare us the doubly wasted
bandwidth.
RBrickston
suzie...@yachtmail.com says...
That;s conjecture. All the facts are not in evidence yet as to what
exactly occurred.
> It is more akin to some Ferrari employees takingpictures in thier own
> factory (a habit that they seem to repeat) and sending them to
> McLaren.
>
> Now I agree McLaren management should have rebuffed it immediately,
> and Coughlan was foolish not to raise it to Ron and have it officially
> returned by him, with positive PR put out about how they have returned
> Ferrai's IPR etc, and he should pay with his job, in the same way
> Stepney has. He failed spectacularly.
Again, we don't know all the facts yet. The key, imo, is if any of the
data was used in any way, even if that data failed to give advantage.
> I mean, knowing Ferrari, you had
> to suspect it was a trap of some kind, right?
As litigious as the FIA has been lately, I seriously doubt if Ferrari
masterminded some scam on McLaren or even vaguely consider such an
outlandish scheme; an FIA penalty for doing so would be far in excess of
what McLaren may be facing.
> But did McLaren, as a
> conscious policy, decide to seek out and use Ferrari IPR? Nobody
> serious has suggested that, or been able to prove it.
The seeking out is immaterial. Suppose Coughlin found the 780 page
document on his way out of a test session simply because a Ferrari tech
had accidently dropped it. The penalty for use of any of that data is
exactly the same.
> If you think that in a close knit world like F1 that people who drift
> from team to team don't share confidential information with other
> people, including journos, you are labouring under a misapprehension.
> It happens all the time, in any industry. The old adage "loose lips
> sink ships" applies - why should McLaren be punished harshly for
> Ferrari's loose lips?
From what we know so far, it is a lot more definitive than a word of mouth
information transfer.
> A few emails containing Ferrari info are nothing - if they start down
> that road, I want to see them asking for all Ferrari emails that
> mention Renault or McLaren technology...
You need probable cause for such a request, such as a chief technician in
possession of a competitor's 780 page technical document.
RBrickston
spam.me.uk says...
The quote I found was "Dr Harvey Postlethwaite, Ferrari=3Fs technical
director, confessed to friends that he had led a break-in at the Williams
team garage... "Telling one's friends" doesn't even vaguely qualify as a
documented and proven fact.
Suzieflame
wrote:
And yet you say:
"Spy photos of cars in the pit lane/garage and on the track are one
thing, but breaking into a teams development facility with the same
camera quite another", assuming that McLaren are guilty of the
latter...
>> It is more akin to some Ferrari employees takingpictures in thier own
>> factory (a habit that they seem to repeat) and sending them to
>> McLaren.
>>
>> Now I agree McLaren management should have rebuffed it immediately,
>> and Coughlan was foolish not to raise it to Ron and have it officially
>> returned by him, with positive PR put out about how they have returned
>> Ferrai's IPR etc, and he should pay with his job, in the same way
>> Stepney has. He failed spectacularly.
>
>Again, we don't know all the facts yet. The key, imo, is if any of the
>data was used in any way, even if that data failed to give advantage.
Rubbish. Is it wrong to listen in on radio transmissions to gather
data on opposition strategy? If so, can you imagine why McLaren went
to encrypted technology in the 1990s?
>> I mean, knowing Ferrari, you had
>> to suspect it was a trap of some kind, right?
>
>As litigious as the FIA has been lately, I seriously doubt if Ferrari
>masterminded some scam on McLaren or even vaguely consider such an
>outlandish scheme;
Sure, Ferrari is snow white, and doesn't brief the press against
McLaren in thier own favour, or sell them a dummy from time to time on
pit strategy...jeez, have you ever raced for real?
>an FIA penalty for doing so would be far in excess of
>what McLaren may be facing.
Rubbish.
>> But did McLaren, as a
>> conscious policy, decide to seek out and use Ferrari IPR? Nobody
>> serious has suggested that, or been able to prove it.
>
>The seeking out is immaterial. Suppose Coughlin found the 780 page
>document on his way out of a test session simply because a Ferrari tech
>had accidently dropped it. The penalty for use of any of that data is
>exactly the same.
You talk about proof etc, but there's no proof it was used yet, so
stop referring to that like a fact.
>> If you think that in a close knit world like F1 that people who drift
>> from team to team don't share confidential information with other
>> people, including journos, you are labouring under a misapprehension.
>> It happens all the time, in any industry. The old adage "loose lips
>> sink ships" applies - why should McLaren be punished harshly for
>> Ferrari's loose lips?
>
>From what we know so far, it is a lot more definitive than a word of mouth
>information transfer.
"Stepney told Coughlan".
>> A few emails containing Ferrari info are nothing - if they start down
>> that road, I want to see them asking for all Ferrari emails that
>> mention Renault or McLaren technology...
>
>You need probable cause for such a request, such as a chief technician in
>possession of a competitor's 780 page technical document.
Indeed:-
"The late Dr Harvey Postlethwaite, who was Ferrari's technical
director, admitted that he had been the mastermind behind a
clandestine break-in at the Williams garage during the German Grand
Prix in 1980. A group of Ferrari personnel spent the entire night in
the garage, wielding their tape measures and taking photographs of the
car that would win Australian Alan Jones that year's championship.
Ironically, none of the information gleaned appeared to make any
difference to Ferrari."
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article2042025.ece
http://sport.independent.co.uk/motor_racing/article2737046.ece
Suzie
--
Suzieflame
RBrickston
And this has what to do with something a hundred times as egregious?
> >an FIA penalty for doing so would be far in excess of
> >what McLaren may be facing.
>
> Rubbish.
Really? Setting up an elaborate scheme to entrap a competitor that would
have to involve top management... So what do you figure, a 10 grid space
penalty?
> >> But did McLaren, as a
> >> conscious policy, decide to seek out and use Ferrari IPR? Nobody
> >> serious has suggested that, or been able to prove it.
> >
> >The seeking out is immaterial. Suppose Coughlin found the 780 page
> >document on his way out of a test session simply because a Ferrari tech
> >had accidently dropped it. The penalty for use of any of that data is
> >exactly the same.
>
> You talk about proof etc, but there's no proof it was used yet, so
> stop referring to that like a fact.
WTF are you talking about? This is a conversation on speculation. I have
already stated we don't have all the the facts yet. Your premise concerned
whether or not McLaren sought out the data and then used it. Now you use
as an argument, "there's no proof it was used yet." No shit, Sherlock.
> >> If you think that in a close knit world like F1 that people who drift
> >> from team to team don't share confidential information with other
> >> people, including journos, you are labouring under a misapprehension.
> >> It happens all the time, in any industry. The old adage "loose lips
> >> sink ships" applies - why should McLaren be punished harshly for
> >> Ferrari's loose lips?
> >
> >From what we know so far, it is a lot more definitive than a word of mouth
> >information transfer.
>
> "Stepney told Coughlan".
Wrong. Couglin admitted under oath in a signed affidavit, where, when and
how.
>
> >> A few emails containing Ferrari info are nothing - if they start down
> >> that road, I want to see them asking for all Ferrari emails that
> >> mention Renault or McLaren technology...
> >
> >You need probable cause for such a request, such as a chief technician in
> >possession of a competitor's 780 page technical document.
>
> Indeed:-
>
> "The late Dr Harvey Postlethwaite, who was Ferrari's technical
> director, admitted that he had been the mastermind behind a
> clandestine break-in at the Williams garage during the German Grand
> Prix in 1980. A group of Ferrari personnel spent the entire night in
> the garage, wielding their tape measures and taking photographs of the
> car that would win Australian Alan Jones that year's championship.
> Ironically, none of the information gleaned appeared to make any
> difference to Ferrari."
>
> http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article2042025.ece
>
> http://sport.independent.co.uk/motor_racing/article2737046.ece
This is an F1 urban myth as far as I can tell. The source seems to be that
allegedly Postlethwaite "told some friends" that this event supposedly
took place. Since the good Doctor is no longer around to corroborate, I'd
call it pure crap, something the media would call "good copy."
RBrickston
suzie...@yachtmail.com says...
And just how did Dr Harvey Postlethwaite mastermind the breakin fro
Ferrari at the 1980 German Grand Prix when he did not work for Ferrari
until May of 1981?
Dan
>You see punishing McLaren for stealing another Ferrari's technical
>information as somehow Ferrari underhandedness?
Wasn't it a Ferrari employee that stole the data?
Richard Miller
<ocean...@netlimit.com> writes
>
>Hey, Ferrari can't beat McLaren on track so they will try to beat them
>in court. I hope they fail. McLaren have the better drivers and
>deserve to win both titles this season. How sad would it be for
>Kimi(or Massa) to win his first WDC in court and not on track like
>all the previous 28 drivers that won the WDC did? I'm sure Kimi and
>Massa want to become champions on track.....
>
Which bit of the McLaren saga caused the Ferrari to break down today,
finally ruining Massa's remote chances?
A bit more reliability, and Ferrari might have won it on the track
regardless of all the politics.
--
Richard Miller
Richard Miller
<rrodr...@triad.rr.com> writes
>Am I missing something? Wouldn't it be hollow victory for McLaren for the
>whole world to know that the only way they were able to win a Championship
>after 10 years trying was by plagiarizing a superior team's design and car
>set up information?
Yes, you are missing something: the fact that this did not happen. Even
on the most damning version of events, there is no way the information
could have impacted on this year's car.
>
>
>
>Would they have been ale to lead the Championship on their own?
Yes.
>It did not
>look that way at the beginning of the season.
To you, maybe. To me it looked like it would be a close season between
two good teams.
>
>
>
>If Ron D. is as honorable as he claims to be he should forfeit the points he
>got from the advantage his drivers got from using Ferrari's information.
Agreed. Which on my assessment of the current state of the evidence
would result in him losing precisely zero points.
--
Richard Miller
Suzieflame
Yes.
Suzie
--
Suzieflame
Lenny
wrote:
> Yes, you are missing something: the fact that this did not happen. Even
> on the most damning version of events, there is no way the information
> could have impacted on this year's car.
You know Richard, I find it a bit amusing where you deny the pilfered
documents could have any value -- without knowing what the data
contains. You do cloud the issue with various preconditions, but
without knowing what the data is made up of, any determination of
value is pointless.
Your thought processes seem to be that of a lawyer instead of an
engineer.
Richard Miller
<hays...@hotmail.com> writes
>On Sep 10, 11:15 am, Richard Miller <rich...@seasalter0.demon.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>> Yes, you are missing something: the fact that this did not happen. Even
>> on the most damning version of events, there is no way the information
>> could have impacted on this year's car.
>
>
>You know Richard, I find it a bit amusing where you deny the pilfered
>documents could have any value -- without knowing what the data
>contains.
Please do feel free to keep mis-stating what I have said. You won't be
getting any further response from me.
For the benefit of those who do have some understanding of the matter,
clearly any data McLaren may have received in March or April could not
have had any impact on a car designed several months previously and
tested over the winter of 2006-7.
--
Richard Miller
Lenny
wrote:
> Please do feel free to keep mis-stating what I have said.
I'm pretty sure this is the first time I have clarified what you have
said, but feel free to make it seem like hundreds of times instead of
the first time.
> You won't be
> getting any further response from me.
>
With your position, I wouldn't respond -- either.
> For the benefit of those who do have some understanding of the matter,
> clearly any data McLaren may have received in March or April could not
> have had any impact on a car designed several months previously and
> tested over the winter of 2006-7.
So, the unknown data is useless.
Yup, just another lawyer trick to subvert the reality of the
discussion.
Ralf
wrote:
Without knowing what is in the file no one but Dick knows for sure. He
and a small group of Pro-England nationalistic types have made up
their minds. How he knows is unknown, but it seems likely he has a
small penis because all he wants to do is abuse anyone disagreeing
with him.
>
>Yup, just another lawyer trick to subvert the reality of the
>discussion.
>
Don't waste your time with Dick. He has made up his mind and there is
no changing what he thinks. He is a failed barrister and gets his
jollies with online bashing.
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com