So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned from the WC.
But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer the consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
I predict that McLaren and Mercedes will immediately form a breakaway series, and offer an entirely new cash sharing and technology structure to other teams willing to join them, freezing Ferrari and the FIA out entirely. MotoGP is run along the same lines, with the teams being shareholders in the series.
And where will Ferrari be then? Alone, in Italy, with Mark Frusciante fulminating abut the unfairness of it all, while everbody else just enjoys the sport...
> So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned > from > the WC.
> But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer > the > consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
> I predict that McLaren and Mercedes will immediately form a > breakaway > series, and offer an entirely new cash sharing and technology > structure to other teams willing to join them, freezing Ferrari and > the FIA out entirely. MotoGP is run along the same lines, with the > teams being shareholders in the series.
> And where will Ferrari be then? Alone, in Italy, with Mark > Frusciante > fulminating abut the unfairness of it all, while everbody else just > enjoys the sport...
> Suzie > -- > Suzieflame
I like where you are coming from. I just love a bit of a rebellion. But I dont see it. Im not exactly sure why the other teams would follow Mclaren, if Mclaren are found guilty.
Sure I find it ironic that Ferrari of all teams are crying about spying and cheating, and would love to the see the hypocrites side lined in some way, but I really dont see it happening.
However, you mension Mercedes. No where have I seen a Merc reaction to all this. What will Merc do if Mclaren are hung out to dry? How involved are they? Are they are responsible as Mclaren may be? Can they go with another team, if so who?
Mercedes seem oddly very quiet. Or have I completely missed this part of the puzzle?
> I like where you are coming from. I just love a bit of a rebellion. But I > dont see it. Im not exactly sure why the other teams would follow Mclaren, > if Mclaren are found guilty.
Wasn't there already a breakaway series being planned for 2008? IIRC practically all the manufacturer teams except Ferrari were deadly serious about it.
Suzieflame wrote: > So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned from > the WC.
I greatly fear you are right
> But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer the > consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
Indeed, but it doesn't seem to matter to Italians whether or not they win against worthy opposition, they just want to WIN. I well remember the Austrian GP when Prost crashed his Ferrari on the warming-up lap - thousands of "fans" streamed out of the circuit before the race had even begun.
> I predict that McLaren and Mercedes will immediately form a breakaway > series, and offer an entirely new cash sharing and technology > structure to other teams willing to join them, freezing Ferrari and > the FIA out entirely. MotoGP is run along the same lines, with the > teams being shareholders in the series.
It ain't going to happen. Whether we like it or not, Ferrari are an essential part of F1
> And where will Ferrari be then? Alone, in Italy, with Mark Frusciante > fulminating abut the unfairness of it all, while everbody else just > enjoys the sport...
A lovely thought but, like I say, it ain't going to happen.
> "AC" <x...@xxx.xxx> wrote in message > news:m99Ei.11260$F77.8316@newsfe4-win.ntli.net... >> I like where you are coming from. I just love a bit of a rebellion. >> But I dont see it. Im not exactly sure why the other teams would >> follow Mclaren, if Mclaren are found guilty.
> Wasn't there already a breakaway series being planned for 2008? IIRC > practically all the manufacturer teams except Ferrari were deadly > serious about it.
> Paul
I always took that as a "position" in a negociation. On top of that, havent they all signed up with Bernie since? If so, I dont see how they could easily walk away.
And all that was well before the IP issue. If found guilty, then surely the other teams would be wary of Mclaren. (which makes one wonder about the Mclaren produced standard ECU issue)
Oh, and can we really see Flav abandoning Bernie? Not a cats chance.
The idea of the teams fucking over Bernie, the FIA and Ferrari does have huge appeal, but I dont see it happening.
> Suzieflame wrote: >> So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned >> from >> the WC.
> I greatly fear you are right
>> But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer >> the >> consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
> Indeed, but it doesn't seem to matter to Italians whether or not > they > win against worthy opposition, they just want to WIN. > I well remember the Austrian GP when Prost crashed his Ferrari on > the > warming-up lap - thousands of "fans" streamed out of the circuit > before the race had even begun.
>> I predict that McLaren and Mercedes will immediately form a >> breakaway >> series, and offer an entirely new cash sharing and technology >> structure to other teams willing to join them, freezing Ferrari and >> the FIA out entirely. MotoGP is run along the same lines, with the >> teams being shareholders in the series.
> It ain't going to happen. Whether we like it or not, Ferrari are an > essential part of F1
Is this really true? Im pretty sure F1 would do just fine with out Ferrari. And Mclaren for that matter. Perhaps not both though!!!
But I really dont buy this Ferrari are essential line. Just that alone suggests preferential treatment for Ferrari, which would of course be most unsporting.........
On Sep 7, 11:24 am, Suzieflame <suziefl...@yachtmail.com> wrote:
> So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned from > the WC.
> But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer the > consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
_If_ that's the entirety of what it's about.
If Ferrari feel that they have been the victims of industrial espionage then of course they should pursue that matter vigorously.
It may be that they know that a championship victory after McLaren have been excluded (if that's what happens) would be a hollow victory, but F1 motor racing doesn't exist in isolation from the rest of the world, and neither would the alleged industrial espionage.
Forget for a moment that it's two F1 teams involved. Consider the two parties as rich corporations with valuable brands, with massive investments in technology and logistics and with shareholders who have paid good money and to whom their are real and serious responsibilities (which, in fact, is the case here). Now if one of those companies believes some of it's IP has been illegally obtained by the other and that this can be proven then wouldn't you expect a charges to be laid, lawyers to be briefed?
It is possible that Ferrari have at least one eye on what they consider to be misuse or even theft of their business secrets. If that is the case and if I were them then you can bet I'd want to sue somebody's ass to the fullest extent possible.
And, yes, if that had an effect on a sporting championship that I was involved in and removed my chief rival then that would not be something that I would enjoy, but hey! It only happened (Topolino and Co please note that I am talking specutively here - I am not saying it DID happen) because they had been up to no good in the first place. I might be prepared to swallow that bitter pill as part of the price of seeing justice prevail.
The only thing that makes me think that this is not the case, or the sole case, is that previously when there was a much clearer case Ferrari instituted (and won) a legal case and did not involve the FIA at all. This time they have involved the FIA. Why this time and not in the case of Toyota?
Gongoozler wrote: > Suzieflame wrote: >> So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned from >> the WC.
> I greatly fear you are right
>> But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer the >> consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
I am not one for conspiracy theories but IF there is evidence against McLaren then perhaps they will be told to let Ferrari win both championships on the track then have their points for the year deducted. In other words a pseudo punishment similar to MS's over the JV incident.
AC wrote: > "Paul Ian Harman" <chatter...@doctorwhowebguide.net> wrote in message > news:5kclc0F33qf9U1@mid.individual.net... >> "AC" <x...@xxx.xxx> wrote in message >> news:m99Ei.11260$F77.8316@newsfe4-win.ntli.net... >>> I like where you are coming from. I just love a bit of a rebellion. >>> But I dont see it. Im not exactly sure why the other teams would >>> follow Mclaren, if Mclaren are found guilty.
>> Wasn't there already a breakaway series being planned for 2008? IIRC >> practically all the manufacturer teams except Ferrari were deadly >> serious about it.
>> Paul
> I always took that as a "position" in a negociation. On top of that, > havent they all signed up with Bernie since? If so, I dont see how > they could easily walk away.
> And all that was well before the IP issue. If found guilty, then > surely the other teams would be wary of Mclaren. (which makes one > wonder about the Mclaren produced standard ECU issue)
I can envisage a whole grid of cars with no ECUs... -- John Briggs
Am I missing something? Wouldn't it be hollow victory for McLaren for the whole world to know that the only way they were able to win a Championship after 10 years trying was by plagiarizing a superior team's design and car set up information?
Would they have been ale to lead the Championship on their own? It did not look that way at the beginning of the season.
If Ron D. is as honorable as he claims to be he should forfeit the points he got from the advantage his drivers got from using Ferrari's information.
"Suzieflame" <suziefl...@yachtmail.com> wrote in message
> So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned from > the WC.
> But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer the > consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
> I predict that McLaren and Mercedes will immediately form a breakaway > series, and offer an entirely new cash sharing and technology > structure to other teams willing to join them, freezing Ferrari and > the FIA out entirely. MotoGP is run along the same lines, with the > teams being shareholders in the series.
> And where will Ferrari be then? Alone, in Italy, with Mark Frusciante > fulminating abut the unfairness of it all, while everbody else just > enjoys the sport...
Suzieflame <suziefl...@yachtmail.com> writes: > So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned from > the WC.
> But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer the > consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
> I predict that McLaren and Mercedes will immediately form a breakaway > series, and offer an entirely new cash sharing and technology > structure to other teams willing to join them, freezing Ferrari and > the FIA out entirely. MotoGP is run along the same lines, with the > teams being shareholders in the series.
> And where will Ferrari be then? Alone, in Italy, with Mark Frusciante > fulminating abut the unfairness of it all, while everbody else just > enjoys the sport...
Races where the pumpkins come in 1st and 2nd every weekend? He'll not be fulminating, it'll be another word ending "-ating".
Phil -- Dear aunt, let's set so double the killer delete select all. -- Microsoft voice recognition live demonstration
> If Ron D. is as honorable as he claims to be he should forfeit the points > he got from the advantage his drivers got from using Ferrari's > information.
<thefatphil_demun...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >Suzieflame <suziefl...@yachtmail.com> writes: >> So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned from >> the WC.
>> But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer the >> consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
>> I predict that McLaren and Mercedes will immediately form a breakaway >> series, and offer an entirely new cash sharing and technology >> structure to other teams willing to join them, freezing Ferrari and >> the FIA out entirely. MotoGP is run along the same lines, with the >> teams being shareholders in the series.
>> And where will Ferrari be then? Alone, in Italy, with Mark Frusciante >> fulminating abut the unfairness of it all, while everbody else just >> enjoys the sport...
>Races where the pumpkins come in 1st and 2nd every weekend? >He'll not be fulminating, it'll be another word ending "-ating".
McLaren should be allowed to cheat, because they can't win on the merits?
> So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned from > the WC.
> But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer the > consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
> I predict that McLaren and Mercedes will immediately form a breakaway > series, and offer an entirely new cash sharing and technology > structure to other teams willing to join them, freezing Ferrari and > the FIA out entirely. MotoGP is run along the same lines, with the > teams being shareholders in the series.
> And where will Ferrari be then? Alone, in Italy, with Mark Frusciante > fulminating abut the unfairness of it all, while everbody else just > enjoys the sport...
> Suzie > -- > Suzieflame
You've been brainwashed by McLaren's repetitive PR releases: "McLaren deny any wrongdoing."
<suziefl...@yachtmail.com> wrote: >So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned from >the WC.
>But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer the >consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
>I predict that McLaren and Mercedes will immediately form a breakaway >series, and offer an entirely new cash sharing and technology >structure to other teams willing to join them, freezing Ferrari and >the FIA out entirely. MotoGP is run along the same lines, with the >teams being shareholders in the series.
>And where will Ferrari be then? Alone, in Italy, with Mark Frusciante >fulminating abut the unfairness of it all, while everbody else just >enjoys the sport...
Once again you filthy crackpots blame the victim...
Blinding bigoted nationalism: It's still just second rate thinking.
>> So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned >> from >> the WC.
>I like where you are coming from. I just love a bit of a rebellion. >But I dont see it. Im not exactly sure why the other teams would >follow Mclaren, if Mclaren are found guilty.
Exactly. It (allegedly) is industrial espionage we're talking about here, it has nothing to do with sportsmanship and "the good old days"; quite the opposite, in fact. I really fail to understand why a team found guilty of that should get away with it.
It is also bizarre how some people seem to believe that Ferrari will act as the proverbial judge, jury and executioner in this matter when there are so many different courts, laws and regulations involved.
>However, you mension Mercedes. No where have I seen a Merc reaction to >all this. What will Merc do if Mclaren are hung out to dry? How >involved are they?
I've been wondering the same. I find it hard to believe that Merc is involved (but then, I still find it hard to believe that *McLaren* is...) but if they're not AND if McL are found guilty, I foresee a very unpleasant reaction...
>> So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned from >> the WC.
>> But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer the >> consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
>> I predict that McLaren and Mercedes will immediately form a breakaway >> series, and offer an entirely new cash sharing and technology >> structure to other teams willing to join them, freezing Ferrari and >> the FIA out entirely. MotoGP is run along the same lines, with the >> teams being shareholders in the series.
>> And where will Ferrari be then? Alone, in Italy, with Mark Frusciante >> fulminating abut the unfairness of it all, while everbody else just >> enjoys the sport...
>> Suzie >> -- >> Suzieflame
>You've been brainwashed by McLaren's repetitive PR releases: >"McLaren deny any wrongdoing."
Not at all. I just think that if Ferrari want to run & win the series so badly, let them have their cake and eat crow.
> >> So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned from > >> the WC.
> >> But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer the > >> consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
> >> I predict that McLaren and Mercedes will immediately form a breakaway > >> series, and offer an entirely new cash sharing and technology > >> structure to other teams willing to join them, freezing Ferrari and > >> the FIA out entirely. MotoGP is run along the same lines, with the > >> teams being shareholders in the series.
> >> And where will Ferrari be then? Alone, in Italy, with Mark Frusciante > >> fulminating abut the unfairness of it all, while everbody else just > >> enjoys the sport...
> >> Suzie > >> -- > >> Suzieflame
> >You've been brainwashed by McLaren's repetitive PR releases: > >"McLaren deny any wrongdoing."
> Not at all. I just think that if Ferrari want to run & win the series > so badly, let them have their cake and eat crow.
> Suzie > -- > Suzieflame
Damn that Maranello team. How dare they allow their crystal ball to break and therefore not be able to prevent Stepny from entrapping that poor Woking team.
>> >> So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned from >> >> the WC.
>> >> But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer the >> >> consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
>> >> I predict that McLaren and Mercedes will immediately form a breakaway >> >> series, and offer an entirely new cash sharing and technology >> >> structure to other teams willing to join them, freezing Ferrari and >> >> the FIA out entirely. MotoGP is run along the same lines, with the >> >> teams being shareholders in the series.
>> >> And where will Ferrari be then? Alone, in Italy, with Mark Frusciante >> >> fulminating abut the unfairness of it all, while everbody else just >> >> enjoys the sport...
>> >> Suzie >> >> -- >> >> Suzieflame
>> >You've been brainwashed by McLaren's repetitive PR releases: >> >"McLaren deny any wrongdoing."
>> Not at all. I just think that if Ferrari want to run & win the series >> so badly, let them have their cake and eat crow.
>> Suzie >> -- >> Suzieflame
>Damn that Maranello team. How dare they allow their crystal ball to break >and therefore not be able to prevent Stepny from entrapping that poor >Woking team.
You don't know my record. I'm not a hater of Ferrari, far from it. But if they think that they are holier than thou when it comes to gathering competitive information or flaunting rules, well, they need their own series so they don't have to put up with reaping what they have sown. Enzo himself was one of the biggest sharks in his day.
On Sep 7, 6:39 pm, noone <no...@nowhere.com> wrote:
> > I well remember the Austrian GP when Prost crashed his Ferrari on the > > warming-up lap - thousands of "fans" streamed out of the circuit > > before the race had even begun.
> There's nothing left to see. The series is all about Ferrari.
Well, ddunno about that but it sure as shit aint about racing. This has to be the most boring F1 season in terms of on-track racing.
> In article <1189159911.951637.304...@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com>, > Gongoozler <catch...@trevorpavitt.co.uk> wrote:
>> Indeed, but it doesn't seem to matter to Italians whether or not >> they >> win against worthy opposition, they just want to WIN.
> So they're supposed to subsidize the technical development of their > rivals?
>> I well remember the Austrian GP when Prost crashed his Ferrari on >> the >> warming-up lap - thousands of "fans" streamed out of the circuit >> before the race had even begun.
> There's nothing left to see. The series is all about Ferrari.
Luigi Topolino wrote: > On Fri, 07 Sep 2007 11:24:41 +0200, Suzieflame > <suziefl...@yachtmail.com> wrote: > > So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned > > from the WC.
> > But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer > > the consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
> > I predict that McLaren and Mercedes will immediately form a > > breakaway series, and offer an entirely new cash sharing and > > technology structure to other teams willing to join them, freezing > > Ferrari and the FIA out entirely. MotoGP is run along the same > > lines, with the teams being shareholders in the series.
> > And where will Ferrari be then? Alone, in Italy, with Mark > > Frusciante fulminating abut the unfairness of it all, while > > everbody else just enjoys the sport...
> Once again you filthy crackpots blame the victim... > Blinding bigoted nationalism: It's still just second rate thinking.
> So perhaps Ferrari will finally succeed in getting McLaren banned from > the WC.
> But it will be a hollow victory, as Ferrari will eventually suffer the > consequences of their greed and deceit over the years.
> I predict that McLaren and Mercedes will immediately form a breakaway > series, and offer an entirely new cash sharing and technology > structure to other teams willing to join them, freezing Ferrari and > the FIA out entirely. MotoGP is run along the same lines, with the > teams being shareholders in the series.
> And where will Ferrari be then? Alone, in Italy, with Mark Frusciante > fulminating abut the unfairness of it all, while everbody else just > enjoys the sport...
> Suzie > -- > Suzieflame
caught with dirty hands... if proved... (and I believe it will be)
> AC wrote: >> "Paul Ian Harman" <chatter...@doctorwhowebguide.net> wrote in >> message >> news:5kclc0F33qf9U1@mid.individual.net... >>> "AC" <x...@xxx.xxx> wrote in message >>> news:m99Ei.11260$F77.8316@newsfe4-win.ntli.net... >>>> I like where you are coming from. I just love a bit of a >>>> rebellion. >>>> But I dont see it. Im not exactly sure why the other teams would >>>> follow Mclaren, if Mclaren are found guilty.
>>> Wasn't there already a breakaway series being planned for 2008? >>> IIRC >>> practically all the manufacturer teams except Ferrari were deadly >>> serious about it.
>>> Paul
>> I always took that as a "position" in a negociation. On top of >> that, >> havent they all signed up with Bernie since? If so, I dont see how >> they could easily walk away.
>> And all that was well before the IP issue. If found guilty, then >> surely the other teams would be wary of Mclaren. (which makes one >> wonder about the Mclaren produced standard ECU issue)
> I can envisage a whole grid of cars with no ECUs... > -- > John Briggs
Carefully timed for a USGP, just to really piss the yanks off? Sounds like the sort of cock up current F1 should be able to pull off with ease.
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