Lance Kicking Ass in France Again !
Flip Flopper@aol.com Edwards Says Bush was Right !
6th year in a row !
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,126074,00.html
Phil Newnham
Um. The French dude is still in the lead, so far...
--
Phil
Red '57
<pnewn...@yahoodot.com> wrote:
>Bush Says Edwards for President ! wrote:
>> You go Lance ! Rub salt in all those Anglican hating Frodos wounds for the
>> 6th year in a row !
>>
>> http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,126074,00.html
>
>Um. The French dude is still in the lead, so far...
That Basso guy seems to be one tough competitor, also. He stayed with
Lance all through the climb. Lance said they tried to get him for
their team, but he wouldn't.
jim
Max Stein
"Phil Newnham" <pnewn...@yahoodot.com> wrote in message
news:cdc24o$jsh$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
Lance Armstrong's a Democrat.
powertrain
... and like John Kerry, speaks excellent French.
Criminal Hideout @aol.com Edwards Brother is a Fugitive from the Law
"Max Stein" <imag...@exicte.com> wrote in message
news:2lts26F...@uni-berlin.de...
I did a google search and found nothing that says what party Lance is
registered to.
Dan
wrong???
Criminal Hideout @aol.com Edwards Brother is a Fugitive from the Law
"Dan" <d...@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:ODlKc.5938$mL5....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
=====================
The only reason the French voted against the war is that it cut off all the
illegal Oil For food bribes Jockstrap was getting from Saddam for violating
the UN sanctions.
http://www.google.com/search?q=french+oil+for+food+scandal&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&start=10&sa=N
Benjamin Bluemchen
> 6th year in a row !
Tour de France - Welcome to the wonderful world of Doping
Phil Newnham
> "Max Stein" <imag...@exicte.com> wrote in message
> news:2lts26F...@uni-berlin.de...
>
>>"Phil Newnham" <pnewn...@yahoodot.com> wrote in message
>>news:cdc24o$jsh$1...@hercules.btinternet.com...
>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>====================
>
> I did a google search and found nothing that says what party Lance is
> registered to.
You guys are hilarious. He's an amazing athelete who if he wins the tour
again this year will have done something very special indeed and all you
can think about is bashing the French or the Democrats. Can't it just be
about sport for once?!?
--
Phil
Johan Veenstra
Right on Phil.
By the french Armstrong is respected as a 'grand champion', the thread
starter just tries to use Armstrongs achievement for his own trollisch
political agenda.
Johan Veenstra
Max Stein
But since he's a Democrat, that voids a lifetime of his accomplishments in
the eyes of Republicans and makes him insignificant. It's the American way.
Max Stein
And we all know that Canada voted against joining the USA because the Prime
Minister is from Quebec, which is French. You said so yourself. You have a
brilliant mind, for a toad.
Mutamam
As opposed to what other sport?
Benjamin Bluemchen
/me desperately tries to make up examples for quite some time and
finally looks at newsgroup name
F1 for example? Most team sports like football. There have been cases of
doping in all kinds of sports, even ones where you wouldnt expect them
to happen. Wasn't there something in junior karting some time ago? But
then there are sports like cycling, athletics etc. where doping is more
the rule rather than an exception (IMO!).
Crotch Rocket
I bet you think Schumacher has to cheat to win. Do you have any proof
of this absurd allegation of cycle cheats or if anybody does well are
they automatically cheating in your view?
The Rocket
Phil Newnham
A lot of people who have been closely involved with the Tour say that
they know drug use is prevalent, and some even say that to win the tour
you need good drugs, and a good doctor who knows how to hide them. I'm
not sure I believe that but when you have entire teams (Festina) kicked
out of the race for drug abuse then you know you have a systemic problem
and not a case of the odd individual. Some have said that they should
stop the Tour for a year while they put measures in place to clean up
the sport, then start again.
--
Phil
Benjamin Bluemchen
>>/me desperately tries to make up examples for quite some time and
>>finally looks at newsgroup name
>>
>>F1 for example? Most team sports like football. There have been cases of
>>doping in all kinds of sports, even ones where you wouldnt expect them
>>to happen. Wasn't there something in junior karting some time ago? But
>>then there are sports like cycling, athletics etc. where doping is more
>>the rule rather than an exception (IMO!).
>
>
> I bet you think Schumacher has to cheat to win. Do you have any proof
> of this absurd allegation of cycle cheats or if anybody does well are
> they automatically cheating in your view?
IMO = In my opinion
If i had a proof i would earn shiploads of $MONETARY_UNIT's just to keep
my mouth shut. There has already been a case of doping on this years's
tour and when news like this come around it's not really a big surprise
is it? A lot of succesful cyclists have been caught cheating, Virenque,
Pantani(sp?), Ullrich. Armstrong hasn't, he's probably too clever for that.
So judging by the regularity, by which cyclists get caught cheating and
taking into account the suspicion, that what becomes visible is only the
tip of the iceberg (i.e. being realistic), i do _believe_, that doping
is quite a common thing in certain sports and being caught is not so
much a question of doping or not doping but more a question of evading
the inspections. This is not a proof, but if you can prove me wrong
please do so.
Returning to F1, i don't think Schumacher has cheated in every race he
won so far (like you suggested, so you kind of lost the bet) but i
wouldn't be too surprised if cheats (on the technical side) were
involved in one win or the other.
Probert
"Crotch Rocket" <imar...@btinternet.net> wrote in message
news:60elf098m4gceiq0a...@4ax.com...
Plenty - and this is just from the Tour De France;
1967; Tommy Simpson (GB) died by the roadside on a race stage, near the top
of Mont Ventoux . A post mortem showed he taken massive amounts of
amphetamines.
1998; The entire Festina team - thrown out of the tour after a team
management member's car boot was found stuffed with vials of various drugs.
Team Leader Richard Virenque admitted to doping in a court in Lille, saying,
"I live in a world where the rules are set up a long time in advance. I
didn't cheat other riders. In the pack you never use the word doping but
medical help. You are doped only when you get caught."
This year, our (GB's) own World Champion, David Millar, was chucked out 24
hours before the race began after admitting doping offences (EPO). Millar
has also been thrown out of the British Olympic Team.
Last week, Stephano Casagrande (Italy) and Martin Hvastija (Slovenia), were
thrown out of the Tour after race organisers learned the duo were under
investigation in Italy for dopinf offences.
Christophe Brandt was sacked by the Lotto team, just yesterday, having
tested positive (Methadone) last weekend. The Lotto team are still in danger
of being ejected, en masse, from the Tour's last week.
Those are just a very few of the highlights of the past, and of the last 2
weeks, or so, of this years Tour.
This year, former Tour winner, Italian Marco Pantani, committed suicide,
apparently fearing his reputation was irreparably damaged, having been
thrown out of the Giro d'Italia after a mandatory blood test showed probable
use of EPO in 1999. He was also thrown out of the 2001 Giro after a syringe
of insulin was found in his hotel room - a drug for which he had no normal
medical use (ie, he was not a diabetic).
Richard Virenque had a point when he effectively said, in court, that for
years, no one has had a chance of winning any of the three major tours
(France, Spain, Italy) without 'medical help'.
I enjoy watching the Tour de France, the Giro and the Vuelta, and I think
Lance Armstrong is among the greatest cyclists of the last twenty - thirty
years. But, I'm under no illusion that what I'm watching is, certainly
(along with track and field athletics) one of the most drug-riddled sports;
almost entirely drug-fuelled.
Cheers,
Probert.
ric zito
On top of which, there's been "doping" via complete replacement of the
cyclist's blood with new, fresh, highly oxygenated blood just before a
race. Been going on for years - and not just in cycling...
I watched part of a Tour stage today. Incredibly gruelling, intense
stuff. Those guys cycle FURIOUSLY - up and down hill for up to 200
clicks a stage, and still crack a sprint finish like you wouldn't
believe. There isn't a long sustained effort like that in any other
sport I can think of, apart from rowing.
The ones who aren't doped-uber-fit are still f*ucking fit.
--
ric
ric at pixelligence dot com
Crotch Rocket
<bblue...@gmx.com> wrote:
>So judging by the regularity, by which cyclists get caught cheating and
>taking into account the suspicion, that what becomes visible is only the
>tip of the iceberg (i.e. being realistic), i do _believe_, that doping
>is quite a common thing in certain sports and being caught is not so
>much a question of doping or not doping but more a question of evading
>the inspections. This is not a proof, but if you can prove me wrong
>please do so.
So you have no proof that Armstrong has been doping, which was the
allegation?
>
>Returning to F1, i don't think Schumacher has cheated in every race he
>won so far (like you suggested, so you kind of lost the bet) but i
>wouldn't be too surprised if cheats (on the technical side) were
>involved in one win or the other.
" i don't think Schumacher has cheated in every race he won so far "
Hilarious.
I think I have got your attitude marked perfectly. If someone does
better than others, he must be cheating. You just admitted as much.
Crotch Rocket
<nick.wf1...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>> >>>>You go Lance ! Rub salt in all those American hating Frogs wounds
>for the
>> >>>>6th year in a row !
>> >>>
>> >>>Tour de France - Welcome to the wonderful world of Doping
<snip unrelated information>
Then we can all conclude you don't have any proof about Armstrong
cheating, do you? That is the subject at hand.
Probert
Um... no it isn't. *Your* question was about race-cycling in general. I
quote; "Do you have any proof of this absurd allegation of cycle cheats or
if anybody does well are they automatically cheating in your view?"
No mention of Armstrong, in particular that I can see. But since you ask, I
wouldn't be at all surprised if he did. I'd be disappointed - he is a
genuine sporting great, while he remains a 'clean' sportsman. But I wouldn't
be surprised. And that is really sad.
I feel the same about athletics (track and field). I - along with pretty
much anyone else who watched the race - wasn't entirely suprised that Ben
Johnson was stripped of his Olympic gold medal, his 100 metres world record,
and thrown out of the Seoul games. I also wasn't suprised, some years later
that the man who inherited the gold medal, Carl Lewis, was also uncovered as
a drugs 'cheat', or that the man who was eventually awarded the bronze,
England's own Linford Christie, was similarly uncovered at the tail end of
his career. I've no idea what Johnson or Lewis are doing now, but Christie
is a 'respected' athletics coach, some of his charges being selected for the
Olympic teams of half a dozen countries, but mainly GB; the man shouldn't be
allowed near other athletes, let alone train them. That was 1988 - sixteen
years ago.
I also wasn't at all surprised when, late last year, our own Dwain Chambers
was among the first athletes caught out in the BALCO scandal that is
currently decimating the US track and field squad for the Athens Olympics.
First of all, he wasn't as good as he thought he was anyway. Then, a year
before being caught, he employed a coach, Remi Korchemny, who had something
of a known record in doping, having been deeply involved in the doping of
Soviet athletes for years. Chambers, even before 'working' with Korchemny,
was built like a heavyweight boxer - not ideal for a 100 metre sprinter.
Just before he was 'caught', he looked like a bulked-up heavyweight.
Korchemny is among those indicted in the BALCO case by a Grand Jury.
Numerous sportsmen and women - mainly US representatives, and mainly track
and field athletes - and their coaches have been caught up in the BALCO
scandal, among the athletes Kelli White (world champion), Tim Mongomery
(wc), Marion Jones (wc), Regina Jacobs (runner), John McEwen (hammer),
Melissa Price (hammer), Kevin Toth (shot putt). Then there's Barry Bonds
(Giants batter), SF Raiders players, Bill Romanowski, Chris Cooper, Barret
Robbins and Dana Stubblefield who all tested positive for the drug at the
centre of the scandal, THG.
US Track & Field, (US athletics govering body) and USOC (the US Olympic
Committee), for years blatantly dodged the drugs issue - failing to report
test failures of leading athletes and failing to suspend them as IOC
affiliation rules demanded (for fear of damaging the 'image' of the sport in
the US, and for fear of lawsuits from atheltes caught, suing for restraint
of trade). It took a threat of supension of membership of the IOC - and
government intervention (Bush does occasionally do something right) - to get
USTF, USOC and USADA (the Anti-Doping Agency) to get their act together.
But back to cycling, as Virenque intimated during the court case in Lille
four years ago, these days you cannot possibly compete in either the Tour,
the Giro or the Vuelta and get to the end with a chance of winning without,
what he euphemistically called, 'medical help'. If you don't - and your
competitors are (and you know they are - as was clearly borne out by Tour
winner Marco Pantani's being kicked out of the Giro, twice) - you've almost
no chance of winning.
This is why - as M. Zito has already said - the current vogue is for
complete blood exchanges (oxygenated blood replacing the 'tired' or 'used'
blood). It's why EPO was (up until three or four years ago, before there was
a test for it) the drug of choice for cycling in particular. EPO does the
same job as a blood exchange - without having to exchange the blood.
The use of drugs in professional race cycling is endemic and has been for at
least the last four decades. And that situation is entirely the fault of the
sport's governing body, the UCI, who until the evidence was slapped on their
various desks in the week leading up to the 1999 race did absolutely nothing
about it - despite years of demands from the IOC (who, themselves, took
rather a long time to take the blinkers off) - that the sport comply with
IOC affiliation rules about drugs and doping. Up to then, the UCI adopted a
head in the sand approach.
It took the French and Belgian police to shock the UCI into action - hence
Richard Virenque's entire Festina Watches team being kicked out of that
particular year's tour and various police raids on team hotels during the
course of the race. A rider, Tommy Simpson, died three-quarters of the way
up a mountain sake - 37 years ago, for God's sake. What did the sport do?
Put a monument to his memory at exactly the place he, literally, fell off
his bike, and bugger all else.
Virenque is back in the race - has been for the last four years - and will,
in all likelihood, win the 'King of the Mountains' title for a record
seventh time. The Festina team continue to be banned (if they still exist).
There has been case after case after case of pro-riders self-injecting or
being injected with one thing after another - some of them even legal. Even
some that weren't caught during their riding careers have written books,
once they've retired, detailing how some of the cheating occurred - even to
the point of, when being asked to produce a urine sample, having equipment
(plastic tubes and rubber bladders) secreted under their cycling shorts
during the course of a complete race or stage to produce a 'clean' sample of
(not necessarily their) urine. I won't go into the details of exactly where
this equipment was hidden - suffice to say there was a lot of 'standing up'
in the saddle.
So, to say that any pro-cyclist - or world-class track and field athlete -
is 'ablsolutely' drug-free is naive in the extreme.
There will always be a sword of suspicion hanging over all their heads - no
matter how clean they actually are. For all I know, Lance is clean, but the
suspicion is there because, pre-cancer, he was a pretty average and anoymous
team cyclist. After his treatment he suddenly became a Tour winner. I hope
that sustained success really is down to will-power and a determination to
win developed in battling his illness. But, as I said, sadly I won't be
surprised if it is the result of a - so far - clever use of drugs.
Cheers,
Probert.
william lynch
nick.wf1...@btinternet.com wrote on 7/18/04 1:28 PM:
Methadone, the heroin treatment drug?
>
> Those are just a very few of the highlights of the past, and of the last 2
> weeks, or so, of this years Tour.
>
> This year, former Tour winner, Italian Marco Pantani, committed suicide,
> apparently fearing his reputation was irreparably damaged, having been
> thrown out of the Giro d'Italia after a mandatory blood test showed probable
> use of EPO in 1999. He was also thrown out of the 2001 Giro after a syringe
> of insulin was found in his hotel room - a drug for which he had no normal
> medical use (ie, he was not a diabetic).
What possible benefit could insulin be to a non-diabetic?
Crotch Rocket
<nick.wf1...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
>"Crotch Rocket" <imar...@btinternet.net> wrote in message
>news:jntlf0hg62egu3ham...@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:28:49 +0000 (UTC), "Probert"
>> <nick.wf1...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>>
>> >
>>
>> >> >>>>You go Lance ! Rub salt in all those American hating Frogs wounds
>> >for the
>> >> >>>>6th year in a row !
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>Tour de France - Welcome to the wonderful world of Doping
>>
>> <snip unrelated information>
>>
>> Then we can all conclude you don't have any proof about Armstrong
>> cheating, do you? That is the subject at hand.
>>
>
>Um... no it isn't. *Your* question was about race-cycling in general. I
>quote; "Do you have any proof of this absurd allegation of cycle cheats or
>if anybody does well are they automatically cheating in your view?"
Um... I'm sorry if I was unclear or you couldn't read the subject
header. I quote: "[OT] Lance Kicking Ass in France Again !".
>> >> >>>>You go Lance ! Rub salt in all those American hating Frogs wounds
>> >for the
>> >> >>>>6th year in a row !
>> >> >>>
>> >> >>>Tour de France - Welcome to the wonderful world of Doping
I'm sorry if this beginning to the thread is not clear, either. It is
crystal clear to all who are able to read.
>
>No mention of Armstrong, in particular that I can see. But since you ask, I
>wouldn't be at all surprised if he did. I'd be disappointed - he is a
>genuine sporting great, while he remains a 'clean' sportsman. But I wouldn't
>be surprised. And that is really sad.
So, we have no evidence of his cheating, non? But you seem to be
convinced of his guilt, why am I not surprised?
<snip bullshit and unrelated diatribe>
>
>There will always be a sword of suspicion hanging over all their heads - no
>matter how clean they actually are. For all I know, Lance is clean, but the
>suspicion is there because, pre-cancer, he was a pretty average and anoymous
>team cyclist. After his treatment he suddenly became a Tour winner. I hope
>that sustained success really is down to will-power and a determination to
>win developed in battling his illness. But, as I said, sadly I won't be
>surprised if it is the result of a - so far - clever use of drugs.
>
Your thinking the worst of people is really what is sad. I prefer for
things to be proven without a doubt, not to let my juvenile
imagination get carried away by unsubstantiated rumors and a viscous
press bigotry.
FB
I remember watching a "60 Minutes" where they interviewed two ex-members of
the US team that declared that they used drugs, many experimental and not
easily detected...
They even showed a film, made by french reporters, showing US team personal
driving 60 miles to dump medical stuff...
I think it's enough proof...
FB
ric zito
> Your thinking the worst of people is really what is sad. I prefer for
> things to be proven without a doubt, not to let my juvenile
> imagination get carried away by unsubstantiated rumors and a viscous
> press bigotry.
Well, Mr. Crotch Rocket : Probert has put together two cogent and well
informed posts. He has been more than reasonable in his analysis,
supplying a large number of known, recorded, and well-presented facts to
support his opinion, which he is at some pains to point out is just that
- an opinion.
You, on the other hand, have supplied nothing, apart from a petulant
refutation of his arguments, on the basis that...er, he pissed you off
because he's way better informed and FAR closer to the truth than you
are.
You lose.
mace
Oh, those crooked French...
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17275
INVESTIGATORS INTO the Enron scandal have found emails that show that
the company was propping up Republican politicians with illegal money.
According to Associated Press, the e-mails were circulated among Enron
officials in 2000 and 2001, before the energy company went belly up.
They show Enron officials working out how to get their money’s
worth out of financial contributions, and force politicians to compete
for credit in securing large campaign donations from the company.
In an e-mail from May 31, 2001, Enron’s Rick Shapiro and Linda
Robertson discuss a $50,000 contribution solicited by Republican
organisations for a dinner saluting President Bush and Vice President
Dick Cheney.
It shows how companies use what is called "soft money" which is cash
made by companies and individuals to political parties. These
donations to parties were outlawed by a campaign finance law that went
into effect in 2002.
Apparently Enron was to be credited as giving $250,000 to this event,
even though it was only asked to give $50,000 in new soft money.
The surfacing of the emails has raised a storm in Washington with some
leading senators to be hauled before an ethical panel.
Criminal Hideout @aol.com Edwards Brother is a Fugitive from the Law
"mace" <mm...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:e7aa252f.04071...@posting.google.com...
> "Edwards Brother is a Fugitive from the Law" <Edwards Criminal Hideout
@aol.com> wrote in message news:<w7KdncPmTJC...@adelphia.com>...
> > "Dan" <d...@nospam.com> wrote in message
> > news:ODlKc.5938$mL5....@newsread1.news.pas.earthlink.net...
> > > Edwards Says Bush was Right ! wrote:
> > > > You go Lance ! Rub salt in all those American hating Frogs wounds
for
> > the
> > > > 6th year in a row !
> > > >
> > > > http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,126074,00.html
> > > >
> > > >
> > > Is your problem with the French that they were right and GWB & TB were
> > > wrong???
> >
> > =====================
> >
> > The only reason the French voted against the war is that it cut off all
the
> > illegal Oil For food bribes Jockstrap was getting from Saddam for
violating
> > the UN sanctions.
> >
> >
http://www.google.com/search?q=french+oil+for+food+scandal&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF->8&start=10&sa=N
>
> Oh, those crooked French...
>
> http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17275
>
> INVESTIGATORS INTO the Enron scandal have found emails that show that
> the company was propping up Republican politicians with illegal money.
Gee, almost as shocking as this news story.
Clinton helped Enron finance projects abroad
By Patrice Hill
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
The Clinton administration provided more than $1 billion in subsidized
loans to Enron Corp. projects overseas at a time when Enron was contributing
nearly $2 million to Democratic causes.
Clinton officials refused to finance only one out of 20 projects
proposed by the energy company between 1993 and 2000 to build power plants,
natural-gas pipelines and other big-ticket energy facilities around the
world, according to the Export-Import Bank and the Overseas Private
Investment Corp., the agencies that provided the subsidies.
In addition, the administration, which lauded Chairman Kenneth L. Lay
as an exemplary "corporate citizen," granted about $200 million worth of
insurance against political risks for nine Enron projects in such
politically volatile areas as Argentina, Venezuela and the Gaza Strip,
according to documents the agencies provided to the Senate Finance
Committee.
"These projects obviously were a tremendous benefit to Enron's
operations," said Sen. Charles E. Grassley, Iowa Republican and ranking
minority member of the committee. He noted that the Reagan and Bush
administrations approved no loans for Enron between 1985 and 1992 and
provided insurance for only one Enron power project in Guatemala in 1992.
The Clinton administration provided three loans between 1994 and 1998
to the now-defunct Dabhol power project in India. Mr. Clinton's commerce
secretary, Ron Brown, trumpeted the approval of the Dabhol loans on a trade
mission to India in 1995, with Mr. Lay by his side.
The trip was one of 11 Clinton trade missions provided at taxpayer
expense for corporate executives from Enron and other companies. The U.S.
Trade and Development Agency, which sponsored the trips, also provided $1
million in funding to study Enron energy projects in Russia, Eastern Europe
and former Soviet states.
As congressional committees dig for evidence to tie Enron and Mr. Lay
to the Bush administration, evidence of Mr. Lay's links to the Clinton
administration are ample and well-documented.
Mr. Lay at times was Mr. Clinton's golf partner and slept in the
Lincoln Bedroom. Other top Enron officials attended the White House's
infamous "coffee klatches" with Mr. Clinton, according to published reports.
Mr. Lay offered a seat on Enron's board of directors to Robert E.
Rubin, Mr. Clinton's Treasury secretary, in 1999 just before he left
government, the Associated Press reported yesterday. Mr. Rubin tried to get
Treasury to intervene on behalf of Enron last fall when the company credit
rating was threatened.
In May 1996, Mr. Clinton lauded Mr. Lay as a good "corporate citizen"
at a White House event because of Enron's enlightened personnel policies,
including profit-sharing of Enron stock and generous health and pension
benefits. Enron employees now are suing because those benefits are as
worthless as the bankrupt company's stock.
During the Clinton years, Enron contributed more than $1 million to the
Democratic Party, including $600,000 to the Democatic National Committee,
according to Federal Election Commission records. Mr. Clinton and Vice
President Al Gore received contributions of $11,000 and $13,750,
respectively, for their presidential campaigns.
One $100,000 contribution to the DNC was provided before India gave
final approval to Enron's Dabhol project in June 1996. The largest and most
expensive capital project ever undertaken in India, Dabhol was of dubious
economic value and never went on line.
The World Bank, on reviewing the project, said it was not economically
viable and inordinately benefited Enron, which was a 65 percent owner. Enron
still owes $203 million on an Export-Import Bank loan for the project, which
the bank says is covered by guarantees provided by five Indian banks.
Congressional aides said it is not clear what the taxpayers' liability
will be for that and other loans now that Enron is bankrupt. The
Export-Import Bank said its loans were extended to overseas subsidiaries of
Enron and not the bankrupt corporation. The overseas investment agency said
its exposure is limited to paying any missed premiums on Enron's political
risk insurance.
Top Clinton officials lobbied personally to obtain Indian state
guarantees for the Dabhol project after it encountered early problems in
1995. Thomas F. "Mack" McLarty, the White House chief of staff, made it a
top administration priority to keep the project from failing. The Bush
administration has continued efforts to salvage the project.
Clinton Energy Secretary Hazel O'Leary led a succession of missions to
India, and Mr. Clinton's ambassador to India, Frank Wisner, was charged with
keeping the project afloat. After Mr. Wisner left government in 1997, he
took a seat on the board of directors of a company then controlled by Enron.
Mr. McLarty also performed work for Enron after leaving the administration.
Probert
"william lynch" <x@y.z> wrote in message news:BD20BDA4.1240%x@y.z...
> in article cdemhv$d19$1...@hercules.btinternet.com, Probert at
> nick.wf1...@btinternet.com wrote on 7/18/04 1:28 PM:
>
> >
> > "Crotch Rocket" <imar...@btinternet.net> wrote in message
> > news:60elf098m4gceiq0a...@4ax.com...
> >> On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 19:04:29 +0200, Benjamin Bluemchen
> >> <bblue...@gmx.com> wrote:
> >>
> >>> Mutamam wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Benjamin Bluemchen <bblue...@gmx.com> wrote in message
> > news:<2lue27F...@uni-berlin.de>...
> >>>>
<snipped>
> >
> > Christophe Brandt was sacked by the Lotto team, just yesterday, having
> > tested positive (Methadone) last weekend. The Lotto team are still in
danger
> > of being ejected, en masse, from the Tour's last week.
>
> Methadone, the heroin treatment drug?
That's the one. Why Methadone? Haven't a clue. I'd have thought it would be
a performance inhibiting drug, personally. But, who knows. It may not,
neccessarily have been Methadone itself, but a derivative - but it still
goes down as Methadone abuse on the IOC banned drugs list.
> >
> > Those are just a very few of the highlights of the past, and of the last
2
> > weeks, or so, of this years Tour.
> >
> > This year, former Tour winner, Italian Marco Pantani, committed suicide,
> > apparently fearing his reputation was irreparably damaged, having been
> > thrown out of the Giro d'Italia after a mandatory blood test showed
probable
> > use of EPO in 1999. He was also thrown out of the 2001 Giro after a
syringe
> > of insulin was found in his hotel room - a drug for which he had no
normal
> > medical use (ie, he was not a diabetic).
>
> What possible benefit could insulin be to a non-diabetic?
Again, I'm not a medic (or diabetic), so I'm guessing. But insulin is a
hormone that - when diabetics use it normally - is used to balance sugar in
the blood system. I don't know what happens to blood-sugar on a 200+
kilometre race stage, up and down mountains (Pantani was a climber (as
against a sprinter)), but I'd guess this is what he used it for.
Perhaps it interacts with the red blood cells, and is used in conjunction
with EPO to reduce the count - just in case of a random test. EPO raises the
count and riders have to take a mandatory blood test before the race to
determine their normal blood count. Use of EPO during a race shows with a
high red cell count against the 'control' pre-race test - for which Pantani
was kicked out of the Giro in '99.
Cheers,
Probert.
<snipped>
Probert
> On Mon, 19 Jul 2004 03:04:09 +0000 (UTC), "Probert"
> <nick.wf1...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >"Crotch Rocket" <imar...@btinternet.net> wrote in message
> >news:jntlf0hg62egu3ham...@4ax.com...
> >> On Sun, 18 Jul 2004 20:28:49 +0000 (UTC), "Probert"
> >> <nick.wf1...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >> >> >>>>You go Lance ! Rub salt in all those American hating Frogs
wounds
> >> >for the
> >> >> >>>>6th year in a row !
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>Tour de France - Welcome to the wonderful world of Doping
> >>
> >> <snip unrelated information>
> >>
> >> Then we can all conclude you don't have any proof about Armstrong
> >> cheating, do you? That is the subject at hand.
> >>
> >
> >Um... no it isn't. *Your* question was about race-cycling in general. I
> >quote; "Do you have any proof of this absurd allegation of cycle cheats
or
> >if anybody does well are they automatically cheating in your view?"
>
> Um... I'm sorry if I was unclear or you couldn't read the subject
> header. I quote: "[OT] Lance Kicking Ass in France Again !".
OK. First, lets break *your* question down into bite size peices.
"Do you have any proof... ...of cycle cheats...". *Cheats* implies a
plural - which I take to mean cycling in general.
"...or if anybody does well..." There's that plural again, and the use of
the word 'anybody' reinforces the non-specific nature of your question.
"...are they automatically cheating in your view?" Again, the plural raises
its head with the word 'they'.
>
> >> >> >>>>You go Lance ! Rub salt in all those American hating Frogs
wounds
> >> >for the
> >> >> >>>>6th year in a row !
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>Tour de France - Welcome to the wonderful world of Doping
>
> I'm sorry if this beginning to the thread is not clear, either. It is
> crystal clear to all who are able to read.
The thread has moved on - this tends to happen in 'conversations', which is,
essentially, what a thread is - which is crystal clear to all who can
actually follow a thread.
>
> >
> >No mention of Armstrong, in particular that I can see. But since you ask,
I
> >wouldn't be at all surprised if he did. I'd be disappointed - he is a
> >genuine sporting great, while he remains a 'clean' sportsman. But I
wouldn't
> >be surprised. And that is really sad.
>
> So, we have no evidence of his cheating, non? But you seem to be
> convinced of his guilt, why am I not surprised?
Well, since you've snipped what you describe as a 'bullshit and unrelated
diatribe', you've really badly missed the point.
In those paragraphs I outlined the reasons why I see pro-cycling - along
with track and field athletics - as being the two sports that have to be
viewed with a high degree of suspicion as to the legality of performance
where drugs use is concerned and, to all intents and purposes, endemic. And
therefore why it is - sadly - naive to believe that any professional
competitor in either sport is absolutely 'clean'. For me, it's a
particularly sad thing to say about athletics, as I used to compete on an
amateur basis until I left university twenty years ago, during rugby's
off-season.
Both sports have, over many years, constantly had their legs kicked out from
under them by their own competitors. How often have we heard - from either
the IAAF, the IOC or a home governing body (in our case UK Athletics
(formerly the BAA - and the BAA was disbanded entirely because of drugs))
that athletics has cleaned up or is cleaning up its act - only for a major
athlete to be uncovered within days? I used the example of the BALCO scandal
to illustrate what sports governing bodies are up against.
THG - the drug at the centre of the case - was unheard of (and therefore
untestable for) until last August. This begs the question how many other
unknown performance-enhancing drugs are out there, in the field, that have
yet to be uncovered. This has long been the problem - the doctors and
chemists will always be one step ahead of the testers. THG was so unheard of
that it wasn't even on the banned list until an anonymous coach sent a
syringe full to the authorities. No doubt, the chemists have moved on to
supply another, newer, undetectable p-e drug to their clients. That's a
really sad thing.
The same happens in pro-cycling. There has not been a single Tour, Giro or
Vuelta in the last six years that has not been very badly tainted by a
competitor - or whole team - being caught cheating, either in the run up to
the race or during it. Were it any other sport, everyone would be up in
arms. But, it's cycling and is, more or less, now expected. That's really
sad too.
I've already listed what has happened so far, in the last fortnight, of the
current Tour, and this isn't an exceptional year by any means. David Millar
isn't just any old cyclist. He's a current World Champion, seen as a future
Tour winner. He was the No 1 on the Cofidis team - had the team built around
him to get him to Paris with a chance of winning.
Cofidis were in disarray for a couple of days - their main raison d'etre
having been suddenly removed, but they've refocussed on getting Stuart
O'Grady into the Green Jersey points race, where he's currently second
behind his Aussie compatriot, Robbie McEwen.
>
>
> <snip bullshit and unrelated diatribe>
>
> >
> >There will always be a sword of suspicion hanging over all their heads -
no
> >matter how clean they actually are. For all I know, Lance is clean, but
the
> >suspicion is there because, pre-cancer, he was a pretty average and
anoymous
> >team cyclist. After his treatment he suddenly became a Tour winner. I
hope
> >that sustained success really is down to will-power and a determination
to
> >win developed in battling his illness. But, as I said, sadly I won't be
> >surprised if it is the result of a - so far - clever use of drugs.
> >
>
> Your thinking the worst of people is really what is sad. I prefer for
> things to be proven without a doubt, not to let my juvenile
> imagination get carried away by unsubstantiated rumors and a viscous
> press bigotry.
Again, you've entirely missed the point. I don't, normally, think the worst
of people - far from it. I normally think the best of people, hopefully,
treating them with the respect I hope they would treat me with - without
knowing me, or me them, personally.
And I don't know how often I need to say it, or how I can say it more
definitively, but I like Lance Armstrong; both as a human being and as a
great sportsman. But, not having met him (or being likely to), it's the
sportsman side that I have to treat with a degree of realism. He's a
pro-cyclist, competing and winning in - probably - the single most gruelling
event in all of world sport (outside some of the dafter 'extreme' sports).
Events, over many years, have shown that it's almost impossible to win -
leave alone finish - any of the three major three week long tours without
illegal 'medical help'. And there's no point pretending otherwise, because
you will always be disappointed in the end. It's the nature of individual
(which tour cycling is when you're the team leader - everything is geared to
getting you to the end of the race with a chance of winning) professional
sport. And that is the really sad thing.
I'll say again, I hope - and assume - Lance is racing 'clean'. But, I won't
be very surprised if, at some time in the future, he is revealed to have had
'medical help', to employ Virenque's euphemism. Disappointed - yes, very.
But not surprised.
Neither is this a view reached by 'juvenile imagination', or from reading
'unsubstantiated rumours' or 'vicious press bigotry' - I'm old enough and
experienced enough to draw my own conclusions, indepedently. First of all, I
don't read the specialist cycling press - ever. The only specialist sport
press I do read concerns the - putative - subject of this group, Formula 1
motor racing, and motor sport in general, with 'Autosport' (available from
your local newsagent every Thursday morning). The only cycling journalism I
do read is that of Phil Ligget's column in the Daily Telegraph - a fair and
impartial journalist, hardly likely to wash cycling's dirty linen in public
on a whim, though he does when he feels it's necessary.
I watch the Tour (and the Giro and the Vuelta) on Eurosport and have done
for the last sixteen years, before that watching the daily hour long round
up on Channel 4 (with the afore-mentioned Ligget commentating, as he still
does now that the UK terrestrial rights have moved to ITV). In all honesty,
I preferred David Duffield's commentary on Eurosport, that encompassed
everything going on in and around the tour - including his own annual
gastronomic journey following the tour. For some reason Duffield isn't
commentating this year. But the one thing Duffield never did was mention
drugs and condemn the use of them, and events over the last few tours made
that a somewhat embarrassing omission. You couldn't not talk about, or
convincingly skirt around, why a rider was suddenly missing from the peleton
when the facts were available elsewhere.
Cheers,
Probert.
Probert
"ric zito" <ADD...@IN.SIG> wrote in message
news:1gh57xe.17w1leg1hcj6voN%ADD...@IN.SIG...
> Probert <nick.wf1...@btinternet.com> wrote:
> >
> > Plenty - and this is just from the Tour De France;
> >
> <snip plenty of examples>
>
> On top of which, there's been "doping" via complete replacement of the
> cyclist's blood with new, fresh, highly oxygenated blood just before a
> race. Been going on for years - and not just in cycling...
Agree totally.
>
> I watched part of a Tour stage today. Incredibly gruelling, intense
> stuff. Those guys cycle FURIOUSLY - up and down hill for up to 200
> clicks a stage, and still crack a sprint finish like you wouldn't
> believe. There isn't a long sustained effort like that in any other
> sport I can think of, apart from rowing.
I don't even think rowing makes the same demands on the body. But, having
been brought up in a rowing environment (I went to a rowing school - I only
went out on the water once and then decided that cricket was a far more
sensible option), I can't see rowing resorting to drugs - unless it goes
properly professional, in which case it almost certainly will.
But today's stage (yesterday's really!) was a prime example of why I really
watch the Tour. I like spotting towns and villages I've visited. Yesterday's
stage between Carcassone and Nimes was like going home for me. For years
(since the late 1960's) my parents have owned a home in a village a few km's
north of Bezier. They now live there pretty much full time, coming back to
England for Christmas and birthdays.
We take a different route down through France from Le Havre. One of them is
a big swing to the south west through Le Mans, Tours, Poitiers, then down
through Limoges, Brive, Cahors (always looking out for the roundabout with
the giant wine bottle shaped bush in the middle). The last leg is through
Montauban, Toulouse to Carcassonne past Narbonne up to Bezier.
One of the other routes takes us through south east (if we get the Calais
ferry); Arras, Reims, Troyes, Dijon, Lyons. Then down the Rhone Valley
through Valence, Orange (for a late lunch), finally turning west to Nimes,
Montpellier and Bezier.
I was sitting watching on the small TV in my study yesterday (whilst
pretending to do some work), saying, "Been there.... and there.... there....
and there too" whilst my confused (American) wife was cooking a late Sunday
lunch wondering, with the very bored kids, what the hell I was babbling
about! Though she did perk up when they went through Pezenas - her favourite
medieval town (not that we saw anything of the town).
Cheers,
Probert.
Martin Ursua
<nick.wf1...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>That's the one. Why Methadone? Haven't a clue. I'd have thought it would be
>a performance inhibiting drug, personally. But, who knows. It may not,
>neccessarily have been Methadone itself, but a derivative - but it still
>goes down as Methadone abuse on the IOC banned drugs list.
Secret ingredient in orange Gatorade?
Martin
NMRIP!
Crotch Rocket
>Crotch Rocket <imar...@btinternet.net> wrote:
>
>> Your thinking the worst of people is really what is sad. I prefer for
>> things to be proven without a doubt, not to let my juvenile
>> imagination get carried away by unsubstantiated rumors and a viscous
>> press bigotry.
>
>Well, Mr. Crotch Rocket : Probert has put together two cogent and well
>informed posts. He has been more than reasonable in his analysis,
>supplying a large number of known, recorded, and well-presented facts to
>support his opinion, which he is at some pains to point out is just that
>- an opinion.
Yes he has put together a very informed analysis of the sporting world
as we know it.
>
>You, on the other hand, have supplied nothing, apart from a petulant
>refutation of his arguments, on the basis that...er, he pissed you off
>because he's way better informed and FAR closer to the truth than you
>are.
I have not made any claims which need to be justified. I have merely
asked him to support his claims in regard to Armstrong, not sporting
or cycling in general.
>You lose.
I disagree with your uninformed opinion based...er, that you have
contributed nothing to this discussion except an outsiders voyeuristic
pleasure. If you have information which is pertinent to the
discussion, please share it with us, otherwise:
Bugger off.
Crotch Rocket
<nick.wf1...@btinternet.com> wrote:
But the lousy newsserver to which I am forced to use only did not
allow me to see the original post, only the follow ups to which I have
replied.
>> >
>> >No mention of Armstrong, in particular that I can see. But since you ask,
>I
>> >wouldn't be at all surprised if he did. I'd be disappointed - he is a
>> >genuine sporting great, while he remains a 'clean' sportsman. But I
>wouldn't
>> >be surprised. And that is really sad.
>>
>> So, we have no evidence of his cheating, non? But you seem to be
>> convinced of his guilt, why am I not surprised?
>
>Well, since you've snipped what you describe as a 'bullshit and unrelated
>diatribe', you've really badly missed the point.
I read it and then snipped it. I did receive your point.
How old is the Tour? Are you saying no one has ever finished the race
without drugging? This is where we differ. I do not hold such views.
<snip beautifully researched and reasoned OPINION to which I do not
agree>
A fine op piece indeed. I'm still waiting for proof positive before I
alter my opinion.
>
>Cheers,
Cheers, indeed.
Bobby Fischler
LOL! Gatorade is a so stupid. Their best flavor is Citrus Cooler but
they never stock enough. Most of the other flavors suck.
Looks like Ivan Basso is the only person who can catch Lance now.
ric zito
> have not made any claims which need to be justified. I have merely
> asked him to support his claims in regard to Armstrong, not sporting
> or cycling in general.
They're not "claims". He's done nothing more than conjecture on the
basis of plenty of relevant facts, and he's made that very clear. What's
your problem with that?
> >You lose.
>
> I disagree with your uninformed opinion
I live in France, and follow the Tour regularly on TV and in L'Equipe.
I'm also involved in discussions about it on a semi-daily basis, with
friends who are natives here, and who've grown up with it.
...and you?
> based...er, that you have
> contributed nothing to this discussion except an outsiders voyeuristic
> pleasure.
Back up the thread a little, or change your newsreader. Or take reading
lessons.
> If you have information which is pertinent to the
> discussion, please share it with us, otherwise:
See above.
> Bugger off.
Yeah, right.
Probert
I hate Agent. I have to use it at work, but despite the level of whining
about Microsoft in general and Outlook Express in particular, I much prefer
it for general text based Usenet browsing.
<snipped - for space and relevance; well it's not irrelevant, but if anyone
really feels the need to see what we're arguing about, they can go back a
post or two>
> >
> >And I don't know how often I need to say it, or how I can say it more
> >definitively, but I like Lance Armstrong; both as a human being and as a
> >great sportsman. But, not having met him (or being likely to), it's the
> >sportsman side that I have to treat with a degree of realism. He's a
> >pro-cyclist, competing and winning in - probably - the single most
gruelling
> >event in all of world sport (outside some of the dafter 'extreme'
sports).
> >
> >Events, over many years, have shown that it's almost impossible to win -
> >leave alone finish - any of the three major three week long tours without
> >illegal 'medical help'.
>
> How old is the Tour? Are you saying no one has ever finished the race
> without drugging? This is where we differ. I do not hold such views.
No. What I am saying, though, is that it's highly likely that there hasn't
been a 'clean' overall race winner for, probably, the last fifteen - twenty
years. There are, almost certainly, top-line racers who start the tour who
are almost certainly clean (in-as-far as you can be certain). An example
being Mario Cippolini, a big name Italian racer and sprinter who very rarely
gets past the first week when things begin to get a bit hilly, because he's
totally knackered.
In the, admittedly, sweeping statement I've amde in the above paragraph, I
obviously have to include five time winner Miguel Indurain - against whom,
as far as I can tell, there has never been even a rumour of drug abuse, and
it never even crossed my mind to think he possibly had until 1998 (which, I
think, was his last Tour). Unlike Armstrong, who has had rumours and
whispers of drug use since his recovery from cancer swirling around him.
Another former winner still in with a slight chance of winning again this
year, Jan Ullrich, is another know drug 'cheat'
Up until a few years ago, I really did think that the drug cheats in sport
were few and far between and basically harmed no-one but themselves. It was
the events of the manic and chaotic few days before and after the Tour's
start in Ireland that really opened my eyes, not just to how abuse of drugs
in sport affect the invidual, but how they affect the whole sport - his team
are cheated (unless, as in the case of Festina it's a team thing), other
clean competitors are cheated, spectators and fans are cheated, and many
people's livelihoods are on the line - if a sponsor withdraws (as Festina
did) their money, people are going to loose their jobs.
First there was the day of rumour that at least one team and various other
individual riders had been caught. Then came the bombshell day of Festina
being thrown out after a back-up team member (a masseur, if memory serves)
was caught in Belgium with, literally, a bootful of illegal drugs for the
team. (As I'm writing this I'm listening with half-an-ear to details of
David Millar's evidence to a French court today - it's very depressing.
Cofidis have officially sacked him today, and his evidence implicates at
least one other rider and another team's doctor.)
In the other big drug fuelled sport - athletics - the cheating is of a
slightly different kind. Dwain Chambers almost certainly ran - so badly that
he fell over in the 100 metres final of the 2000 Commonwealth Games -
stuffed full of drugs. He certainly ran in last years World Championships up
to the eyeballs. In doing so he cheated himself, the rest of the British
team, the fans, and everyone who buys a lottery ticket every week- because
it was the National Lottery that sponsored him and paid him a fairly
handsome wage - despite the fact that he was earning tens of thousands
show-ponying on the European summer circuit. But he also cheated another
sprinter, Jason Gardner out of a place in the WC team. Chambers ran, we now
know, drugged in the selection trials. Gardner came fourth with only three
places up for grabs. He wrote a very revealing piece in last weekend's Mail
on Sunday about how it affected him. His sponsorship - also from the Lottery
was immediately cut in half when he failed to qualify, which meant that he
has spent the last year struggling, more than he would normally have done,
trying to make the Olympic team, in which he succeeded a couple of weeks
ago.
So, much as I enjoy watching the big tours and admire the effort put in by
the competitors, I view it with a large degree of cynicism, aware that what
I'm watching is not pure sport. Someone, somewhere in the field that rode
today's first day in the Alps has taken an illegal p-e drug. That much is
certain and indisputable. How many of the field have taken them, in one form
or another in the last couple of months is less certain, but I'd lay pretty
decent odds that at least a third of the field have.
>
> <snip beautifully researched and reasoned OPINION to which I do not
> agree>
>
> A fine op piece indeed. I'm still waiting for proof positive before I
> alter my opinion.
There is no proof positive as far as Armstrong is concerned. However, unlike
Bush and Blair - when demanding similiar unprovable proof of Saddam - I'm
not about to invade Lance Armstrong (for one thing I'm not that way
inclined, and for another my wife wouldn't be very happy!)
Joking aside, though, there is plenty of circumstantial evidence, most of
which revolves around his pre-cancer form; an average and pretty anoymous
team rider - to the sudden and immediate transformation post-cancer; a (so
far) five consecutive Tour winner, looking increasingly like six.
Then there's the book, "L.A. Confidential, The Secrets of Lance Armstrong",
published last week written by David Walsh of the Sunday Times - a well
respected investigative sports journalist, and Pierre Ballester, who I must
confess I've never heard of, but is described as a 'cycling expert' and was
formerly a journalist with L'Equipe (French sports daily).
In the book there is, apparently, an accusation from former US Postal
Service Team masseur, Emma O'Reilly, that Armstrong used EPO.
Armstrong, she is reported as saying, also directly asked her to dispose of
a black bag containing syringes after the Tour of the Netherlands in 1998.
She says she didn't know what was in the syringes. In May 1999, she is
reported as saying, Armstrong asked O'Reilly to drive to Spain to pick up
drugs and bring them to his southern France traing camp. He took delivery.
Emma O'Reilly wasn't just any team masseur, she was, for three and a half
years, Armstrong's personal masseur, physical therapist and personal
assistant.
Now, it must be said that, Armstrong is suing both journalists and the
publishers (Sunday Times in the UK and L'Express in France). So, the outcome
will be interesting, to say the least.
It's for this reason - and an unexplained link, revealed three or four years
ago, between Armstrong and another team's doctor with strong links to EPO -
that I, personally, view Lance's achievements with a large dose of realism.
He either really is an exceptionally gifted - the most gifted ever - rider
(and his pre-cancer form alone, decisively says 'no' to that proposition) or
he's being very clever with his drugs regime. There's not much room for much
in between.
Cheers,
Probert.
Dana Indy
country with no ball's!! learn how to defend your self. because we are
not your ally any more.done deal!!! you have burnt that bridge!!!!!
good luck on your own in he free world!! your going to need it. french
frogs suck the big one!!!! later!!!!
Paul-B - the original and the best!
Alice Cooper
--
Paul-B
"If everything seems under control, you're just not going fast enough."
- Mario Andretti
Reply to address is spam-trap. Use paul at streetka dot biz if you
really must!
Kevin Smitherman
"Paul-B - the original and the best!" <pau...@mschumacher.com> wrote in
message news:2m7fvpF...@uni-berlin.de...
> Dana Indy posted:
>
> > the french frog is dust! he's toast...it's a funeral pyre for the
> > country with no ball's!! learn how to defend your self. because we
> > are not your ally any more.done deal!!! you have burnt that
> > bridge!!!!! good luck on your own in he free world!! your going to
> > need it. french frogs suck the big one!!!! later!!!!
>
> Alice Cooper
>
> --
> Paul-B
Dana: Another example of an immature and ignorant American with no humility
living vicariously through Lance Armstrong.
How pathetic.
Where's this Frenchman Lance is beating? Don't answer, you've been KF'd.
What's it like being an embarrassment to your country? You're good at it.
Dana Indy
Dana Indy
Dana Indy
that!!!!!!!
Dana Indy
Dana Indy
throw our weight around some time.if we don't who will? france,the uk..i
don't think so...thank goodness i live in america. it's the best!!! GO
LANCE!!!!!
Tony Gartshore
"Paul-B - the original and the best!" <pau...@mschumacher.com> wrote in
message news:2m7fvpF...@uni-berlin.de...
>
> > the french frog is dust! he's toast...it's a funeral pyre for the
> > country with no ball's!! learn how to defend your self. because we
> > are not your ally any more.done deal!!! you have burnt that
> > bridge!!!!! good luck on your own in he free world!! your going to
> > need it. french frogs suck the big one!!!! later!!!!
>
> Alice Cooper
>
> --
> Paul-B
>
chatting over dinner at the Sophitel in Pall Mall to an American collegue
from New Jersey. Charming, witty, quietly spoken, he was a pleasure to spend
time with. Reminded me of Frank at Le Mans last year.
Go out and meet a real American, there are some real nice ones out there..
(Not aimed at you Paul, just hi-jacking your reply!)
T.
Paul-B - the original and the best!
Have to agree, having worked for an American company with 75% of it's
staff American there were very few disagreeable ones there. Mostly I
find Americans to be friendly, outgoing and generous to a fault. Hence
my referring to the others as "Amerikans".
> (Not aimed at you Paul, just hi-jacking your reply!)
>
No problems, Tony. Hope you got the Alice Cooper reference... :-)
ric zito
Frank....
<snip>
> You know, last Thursday evening I spent a very pleasant couple of hours
> chatting over dinner at the Sophitel in Pall Mall to an American collegue
> from New Jersey. Charming, witty, quietly spoken, he was a pleasure to
> spend time with. Reminded me of Frank at Le Mans last year.
I've been called a lot of things but never "quietly spoken".... Thanks Tony,
the Friday night pub crowd will get a good laugh out of that one.
> Go out and meet a real American, there are some real nice ones out there..
>
> (Not aimed at you Paul, just hi-jacking your reply!)
>
> T.
Much like this newsgroup, there is always someone around that thinks it's
acceptable to spout such drivel. It must make them feel good about
themselves but, unfortunately, they make it all too easy to come to the
conclusion that all Americans are ignorant, jingoistic bubbas. It is
already too hard for rational discourse to take place, as the election gets
closer I fear it will only get worse.
--
Frank....H