Honda??
Hell And High Water
1984.
I'm wondering what everyone thinks of their outlook over the next few
years, now that they've picked up Brawn.
My thoughts: There's no one better than Ross to build a successful
team. However, it's still Honda, and with their history, maybe even
Brawn isn't enough?
Thoughts?
-Bob
Ruddell
(in article <MPG.220bb6b0c...@news.giganews.com>):
Ahhh, I love me Mustang!
http://www.ratbagandmooch.net/cars/
--
Cheers
Dennis
Remove 'Elle-Kabong' to reply
Mike P
"Hell And High Water" <bob.remov...@att.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.220bb6b0c...@news.giganews.com...
team having only been in F1 (as a team) for a couple of years.
I expect to see them much higher up the grid again this year..
Cheers
Mike P
AC
"Hell And High Water" <bob.remov...@att.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.220bb6b0c...@news.giganews.com...
You are right, Ross knows what a team needs to do to win, but I'd be
supprised if they hit the podium this year on merit. 2009 could be
interesting.
AC
APLer
It all depends if Honda itself decides whether to kill any of Ross'
ideas or not. I think *that* would be the continuing problem.
forty
It depends on a number of variables, many of them relating to how
closely the suits at Honda's corporate head try to get themselves
involved. A team with tremendous resources can be thoroughly castrated
by too much corporate interference (see Toyota). If the racing team is
able to maintain enough autonomy, they should be able to make some real
improvements.
That being said, however, I'm doubtful that Honda will be able to match
the improvements of BMW, Renault, and possibly Williams. They could end
up fighting with Red Bulls and Toyotas all season.
--
forty
"There's a very fine line between not listening, and not caring. I like
to think that I walk that line every day of my life."
John Briggs
>
> It depends on a number of variables, many of them relating to how
> closely the suits at Honda's corporate head try to get themselves
> involved. A team with tremendous resources can be thoroughly castrated
> by too much corporate interference (see Toyota). If the racing team is
> able to maintain enough autonomy, they should be able to make some
> real improvements.
>
> That being said, however, I'm doubtful that Honda will be able to
> match the improvements of BMW, Renault, and possibly Williams. They
> could end up fighting with Red Bulls and Toyotas all season.
I think they will be delighted to be fighting Red Bull and Toyota - last
year they were fighting Toro Rosso and Super Aguri.
--
John Briggs
AC
"forty" <cforte...@THISgmail.com> wrote in message
news:60eqv9F...@mid.individual.net...
Don't you think that the lines were drawn before Brawn signed up? I cant
quite see him walking in the nightmare you suggest. Honda know what they
hired in Brawn and even they must have the brains to let him do his thing.
Equally, Brawn must be wary of potential 'suit' interference.
I realise his influence at this point can only be limited, but I think Honda
may well do better than some think. I thinking they might begin to compete
with three you mention.
Also, despite the positive looking testing, Im not sure Williams will be
able to effectivly fight BMW and Renault through the season. I hope the do,
but I think limited resources might hurt them in the second half of the
season where they might have to shift development resources to the 2009 car.
As this happens I see Honda overtaking them.
And thinking about it, will Renault fully support Alonso if his is off to
Ferrari? It might be better for them so also shift focus to the 2009 car in
the second half of the season. Especially if they arent in the WDC or WCC
hunt.
AC
digitect
Huge Honda fan myself, but I'm certain the car development is behind
the engine program. Honda has much less recent history on the parts of
the car where they are weak: aero, suspension, brakes, and balance.
As a fan, I'm optimistic that with Brawn they now have the management
piece they need to get the job done, but do they have the staff
expertise? They are certainly ramping up talent, but there are only so
many people in the world capable of building a world class F1 car.
(Notwithstanding that part of the point is to learn how, perhaps in a
way nobody else has done it before. Learning to innovate is a
corporate goal regardless of winning.)
The finishing order of the 2007 season is a pretty good indication to
me of the talent structure for each team. Ferrari, McLaren, BMW all
have team members with ages of F1 experience. Williams was pouring it
on towards the end, and Renault would obviously be a contender this
year with Alonso. But the rest are still separated, Honda along with
them. And we all can think of another team committed to spending huge
piles of money to win that isn't seeing any results.
With Willis' demise, I think they are still looking for pieces to the
puzzle. (Not sure about his effect in the 2006 success, probably
significant.) Brawn is solid management and talent search committee,
but the question is: do they have enough talent at the right stations
to win yet?
There is no question that Honda (corporation and racing team) are
committed to winning. They have the investment and are willing to move
people in and out quickly until they succeed. So I'm hopeful in the
long term. I just don't know if they are ready to make a big move this
year, and/or fast enough to keep Button happy and in place. (I think
he is WCD material with a decent enough car, not necessarily even the
fastest, but it has to be top 2-3.)
--
Steve Hall [ digitect dancingpaper com ]
CatharticF1
> I'm a huge Honda/Acura fan, having owned nothing but Honda/Acura since
Well like many around here it seems Honda are my number 2 team. I've had
a run of Hondas too and loved my previous one even if I am quite
exasperated at my latest. I remain sceptical though of the their F1
effort. I don't believe they have a great set of talented technical
people at the *top* even if they may have good access to many talented
engineers and designers further down.
I don't think Ross can work a miracle before 2010 and I' not sure they'll
give him the authority he needs to do that. Changing from David Richards
was an arrogant mistake they and their drivers paid for. My concern is
that almost like Toyota they have a predominance of people in the company
wielding political power too detached from what works within the team an
on the track. Someone in Japan needs to shut the f*ck up and let Ross do
it even if he doesn't like how it is being done.
But I hope I'm wrong.
--
CatharticF1
forty
Perhaps, but then again he wouldn't be the first smart person to walk
into a bad situation thinking it can be changed. Then again, Honda might
give the team the autonomy it needs. It worked for HPD in North America.
> I realise his influence at this point can only be limited, but I think Honda
> may well do better than some think. I thinking they might begin to compete
> with three you mention.
>
> Also, despite the positive looking testing, Im not sure Williams will be
> able to effectivly fight BMW and Renault through the season. I hope the do,
> but I think limited resources might hurt them in the second half of the
> season where they might have to shift development resources to the 2009 car.
> As this happens I see Honda overtaking them.
>
I don't think Williams resources are quite as limited as they were last
year, and they seemed to maintain a reasonable level of consistency
towards the end of the season. I'm not sure if they'll be fighting with
BMW, but I'd be willing to bet they'll be fighting with Renault. I think
they'll have at least one car (Nico) up in the top 5 several times this
season, perhaps even a podium or two.
> And thinking about it, will Renault fully support Alonso if his is off to
> Ferrari? It might be better for them so also shift focus to the 2009 car in
> the second half of the season. Especially if they arent in the WDC or WCC
> hunt.
>
> AC
>
>
We don't know what deal Fred has in place, but I doubt Flavio will risk
pissing him off. I'm sure they'll push as hard as they can through most
of the season, but perhaps they'll wait until the end of the European
gig before abandoning 2008 development work. IIRC there were a few teams
who took that approach previously.
AC
"forty" <cforte...@THISgmail.com> wrote in message
I just thing he would have had assurances of automony before signing the
deal. But as you say, this may not mean a thing. Lie most things, time will
tell.
>
>> I realise his influence at this point can only be limited, but I think
>> Honda may well do better than some think. I thinking they might begin to
>> compete with three you mention.
>>
>> Also, despite the positive looking testing, Im not sure Williams will be
>> able to effectivly fight BMW and Renault through the season. I hope the
>> do, but I think limited resources might hurt them in the second half of
>> the season where they might have to shift development resources to the
>> 2009 car. As this happens I see Honda overtaking them.
>>
> I don't think Williams resources are quite as limited as they were last
> year, and they seemed to maintain a reasonable level of consistency
> towards the end of the season. I'm not sure if they'll be fighting with
> BMW, but I'd be willing to bet they'll be fighting with Renault. I think
> they'll have at least one car (Nico) up in the top 5 several times this
> season, perhaps even a podium or two.
You reckon Renault will be behind BMW? Hmm, Im oddly a bit more positive
than that. Either way, Im hoping, but daring not to get anywhere near
excited about Williams. They are looking good, and Nico is looking fast. But
(here we go again) its just testing!!!
>
>> And thinking about it, will Renault fully support Alonso if his is off to
>> Ferrari? It might be better for them so also shift focus to the 2009 car
>> in the second half of the season. Especially if they arent in the WDC or
>> WCC hunt.
>>
>> AC
>
> We don't know what deal Fred has in place, but I doubt Flavio will risk
> pissing him off. I'm sure they'll push as hard as they can through most of
> the season, but perhaps they'll wait until the end of the European gig
> before abandoning 2008 development work. IIRC there were a few teams who
> took that approach previously.
>
The lesser teams do tend to move resources towards the end. When you have no
hope or have limited cash, its the only sensible thing to do.
What you say about Flav has merit, and thinking about it, he might be hoping
that he can tempt Alonso to somehow stay. So, yeah, they might well keep up
the 2008 work. Quite a delicate balance to achieve though, because they
would want to hinder 2009 development. And it would benefit the sport if
Renault got strong again with Alonso leading the team, and there were more
than 2 teams competing. (not discounting BMW and the others)
The more I think about this, the more interesting this year looks.
AC
forty
>>> Also, despite the positive looking testing, Im not sure Williams will be
>>> able to effectivly fight BMW and Renault through the season. I hope the
>>> do, but I think limited resources might hurt them in the second half of
>>> the season where they might have to shift development resources to the
>>> 2009 car. As this happens I see Honda overtaking them.
>>>
>> I don't think Williams resources are quite as limited as they were last
>> year, and they seemed to maintain a reasonable level of consistency
>> towards the end of the season. I'm not sure if they'll be fighting with
>> BMW, but I'd be willing to bet they'll be fighting with Renault. I think
>> they'll have at least one car (Nico) up in the top 5 several times this
>> season, perhaps even a podium or two.
>
> You reckon Renault will be behind BMW? Hmm, Im oddly a bit more positive
> than that. Either way, Im hoping, but daring not to get anywhere near
> excited about Williams. They are looking good, and Nico is looking fast. But
> (here we go again) its just testing!!!
>
Yup, its only testing. But, as for BMW, methinks they've made several
improvements so far. I don't think there's too much hot air in their
claims of aiming for their first win. But, once again, time will tell.
Renault has some catch-up to do, but they certainly have a history of
doing so and they know how to win championships.
>>> And thinking about it, will Renault fully support Alonso if his is off to
>>> Ferrari? It might be better for them so also shift focus to the 2009 car
>>> in the second half of the season. Especially if they arent in the WDC or
>>> WCC hunt.
>>>
>>> AC
>> We don't know what deal Fred has in place, but I doubt Flavio will risk
>> pissing him off. I'm sure they'll push as hard as they can through most of
>> the season, but perhaps they'll wait until the end of the European gig
>> before abandoning 2008 development work. IIRC there were a few teams who
>> took that approach previously.
>>
>
> The lesser teams do tend to move resources towards the end. When you have no
> hope or have limited cash, its the only sensible thing to do.
>
> What you say about Flav has merit, and thinking about it, he might be hoping
> that he can tempt Alonso to somehow stay. So, yeah, they might well keep up
> the 2008 work. Quite a delicate balance to achieve though, because they
> would want to hinder 2009 development. And it would benefit the sport if
> Renault got strong again with Alonso leading the team, and there were more
> than 2 teams competing. (not discounting BMW and the others)
>
> The more I think about this, the more interesting this year looks.
>
> AC
>
>
Indeed. Things look like they could be quite competitive this season.
The only part of it I'm not looking forward to is Max fawning over
himself claiming that the exciting season was his doing...
AC
"forty" <cforte...@THISgmail.com> wrote in message
> AC wrote:
>
>>>> Also, despite the positive looking testing, Im not sure Williams will
>>>> be able to effectivly fight BMW and Renault through the season. I hope
>>>> the do, but I think limited resources might hurt them in the second
>>>> half of the season where they might have to shift development resources
>>>> to the 2009 car. As this happens I see Honda overtaking them.
>>>>
>>> I don't think Williams resources are quite as limited as they were last
>>> year, and they seemed to maintain a reasonable level of consistency
>>> towards the end of the season. I'm not sure if they'll be fighting with
>>> BMW, but I'd be willing to bet they'll be fighting with Renault. I think
>>> they'll have at least one car (Nico) up in the top 5 several times this
>>> season, perhaps even a podium or two.
>>
>> You reckon Renault will be behind BMW? Hmm, Im oddly a bit more positive
>> than that. Either way, Im hoping, but daring not to get anywhere near
>> excited about Williams. They are looking good, and Nico is looking fast.
>> But (here we go again) its just testing!!!
>>
>
> Yup, its only testing. But, as for BMW, methinks they've made several
> improvements so far. I don't think there's too much hot air in their
> claims of aiming for their first win. But, once again, time will tell.
> Renault has some catch-up to do, but they certainly have a history of
> doing so and they know how to win championships.
And BMW have been slowly getting better over time. Slow, but steady. A very
good way to improve.
I remember MS saying that when Ferrari tested the only went for small
improvements and not huge chunks. SO they would try to get an extra 0.1 or
0.2 rather then targeting 1 whole 0.5 - 1 sec. That way each test they would
achieve something and keep building. THose who go for a whole sec are often
disapointed and that can hit moralor lead them down a wrong path. I guess
BMW have the same idea or learned form Ferrari.
Yep, it sure looks like BMW are slowly sneaking up to the front.
Even with my misgivings about Alonso, he is a very good driver. And that
will help Renault. But last season was crap for them, which is odd for a
team that knows what its doing. And Im not so sure one can blame last years
drivers. We see that fast time if Fisi's in the FI car. Of course it could
be light , but equally we could have been wrong about his abilities. Who
knows????
>
>>>> And thinking about it, will Renault fully support Alonso if his is off
>>>> to Ferrari? It might be better for them so also shift focus to the 2009
>>>> car in the second half of the season. Especially if they arent in the
>>>> WDC or WCC hunt.
>>>>
>>>> AC
>>> We don't know what deal Fred has in place, but I doubt Flavio will risk
>>> pissing him off. I'm sure they'll push as hard as they can through most
>>> of the season, but perhaps they'll wait until the end of the European
>>> gig before abandoning 2008 development work. IIRC there were a few teams
>>> who took that approach previously.
>>>
>>
>> The lesser teams do tend to move resources towards the end. When you have
>> no hope or have limited cash, its the only sensible thing to do.
>>
>> What you say about Flav has merit, and thinking about it, he might be
>> hoping that he can tempt Alonso to somehow stay. So, yeah, they might
>> well keep up the 2008 work. Quite a delicate balance to achieve though,
>> because they would want to hinder 2009 development. And it would benefit
>> the sport if Renault got strong again with Alonso leading the team, and
>> there were more than 2 teams competing. (not discounting BMW and the
>> others)
>>
>> The more I think about this, the more interesting this year looks.
>>
>> AC
>
> Indeed. Things look like they could be quite competitive this season. The
> only part of it I'm not looking forward to is Max fawning over himself
> claiming that the exciting season was his doing...
LOL
Almost makes you wish for a piss boring season just to spite the bugger!!!!!
AC
Christian Ehrnrooth
"Hell And High Water" <bob.remov...@att.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.220bb6b0c...@news.giganews.com...
Honda management needs to trust Ross Brawn to do his job. Sadly I don't
think they will.
They should also get a young gun instead of Rubens.
X-ian
Bob Dubery
> Don't you think that the lines were drawn before Brawn signed up? I cant
> quite see him walking in the nightmare you suggest. Honda know what they
> hired in Brawn and even they must have the brains to let him do his thing.
> Equally, Brawn must be wary of potential 'suit' interference.
Well of course these would be discussed, but that's not the same as
having guarantees. Look at some of the shenanigans that have gone on
at Ferrari over the years with designers. Sometimes I think that the
biggest contribution that Todt made to Ferrari was not hiring
Schumacher and the "dream team" that came in with him, but putting in
proper structures so that everybody knew who was in charge and what
their jobs were.
So Todt created the space in which Brawn could do the job he did. Of
course, it was still up to Brawn to do it.
The other interesting thing about Brawn is that he seems to have done
very good succession planning. He and Byrne are gone, but the guys
who have stepped into the big shoes left behind have done a good job.
Clearly the right people were identified and groomed. Though, of
course, that may also have been down to Todt.
I think that F1 teams do well when roles are clearly defined and when
there are few people making the decisions. That's not to say that
that's ALL you need, but I don't believe you can do well with too many
decision makers running around the team. This might be hard for big
corporates to understand.
Bob Dubery
> We don't know what deal Fred has in place, but I doubt Flavio will risk
> pissing him off. I'm sure they'll push as hard as they can through most
> of the season, but perhaps they'll wait until the end of the European
> gig before abandoning 2008 development work. IIRC there were a few teams
> who took that approach previously.
Teams take that approach when it's clear that they have nothing to
gain by spending time developing this year's car. I would think that
Renault decided quite early last year to devote the bulk of their
resources to the 2008 car.
Bob Dubery
> And thinking about it, will Renault fully support Alonso if his is off to
> Ferrari? It might be better for them so also shift focus to the 2009 car in
> the second half of the season. Especially if they arent in the WDC or WCC
> hunt.
I never understand this argument that Fred may be at Renault for just
one year while he's waiting for a seat at Ferrari to open up.
Ferrari have Massa and Raikkonen both contracted until end 2009 at
least.
AC
"Bob Dubery" <mega...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:5faf93d9-6f13-4a24...@f10g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> On Feb 1, 1:57 am, "AC" <x...@xxxx.xxx> wrote:
>
>> Don't you think that the lines were drawn before Brawn signed up? I cant
>> quite see him walking in the nightmare you suggest. Honda know what they
>> hired in Brawn and even they must have the brains to let him do his
>> thing.
>> Equally, Brawn must be wary of potential 'suit' interference.
>
> Well of course these would be discussed, but that's not the same as
> having guarantees. Look at some of the shenanigans that have gone on
> at Ferrari over the years with designers. Sometimes I think that the
> biggest contribution that Todt made to Ferrari was not hiring
> Schumacher and the "dream team" that came in with him, but putting in
> proper structures so that everybody knew who was in charge and what
> their jobs were.
Ok, I see that. MS and co were more like the icing on the cake. (And of
course one has to conclude that it makes Todt a reasonable candidate for
Max's job. )
>
> So Todt created the space in which Brawn could do the job he did. Of
> course, it was still up to Brawn to do it.
Honda must know this. If they dont, they are just nuts.
>
> The other interesting thing about Brawn is that he seems to have done
> very good succession planning. He and Byrne are gone, but the guys
> who have stepped into the big shoes left behind have done a good job.
> Clearly the right people were identified and groomed. Though, of
> course, that may also have been down to Todt.
Yup cant argue that. Lots of folk were thinking Ferrari to nose dive, and
well, they won!!! Have to respect that. Sure we can go on about Mclaren
killing thier own year, but still, hats off to Todt's Ferrari.
>
> I think that F1 teams do well when roles are clearly defined and when
> there are few people making the decisions. That's not to say that
> that's ALL you need, but I don't believe you can do well with too many
> decision makers running around the team. This might be hard for big
> corporates to understand.
Not just F1, business in general.mIts too tempting to those above to
interfere and not trust the underlings. Seen it over and over again.
AC
AC
Now, to my discrace, I thought that it had been confirmed or annonced in
some way. All the discussion I've seen is so defniate that I just (stupid
me) assumed that is was fact. It never seemed in question.
Are you saying that there is nothing even slightly official about it? Not
even a leak that hints at it? Is it all fan and media based rumour and there
is no real basis to it at all?
I hope that is the case. It would be far better all round to have Alonso at
Renault for a few years. I have no doubt that Alonso and Renault can get up
to the speed of Mclaren and Ferrari, and its better all round to have more
competition.
AC
AC
"Christian Ehrnrooth" <christian...@welho.fi> wrote in message
news:fo5b42$h3n$1...@nyytiset.pp.htv.fi...
I kind of agree, but I think Rubens should get another year. Then perhaps
let him go.
To be fair, the car was so shite im not sure Rubens' speed should be judged
on last year.
AC
Hell And High Water
christian...@welho.fi says...
I really like Rubens, but sadly, I have to agree with you.
(I'm also not a big Jenson fan. I'd like two new hot shots....)
-Bob
Bob Dubery
> Now, to my discrace, I thought that it had been confirmed or annonced in
> some way. All the discussion I've seen is so defniate that I just (stupid
> me) assumed that is was fact. It never seemed in question.
>
> Are you saying that there is nothing even slightly official about it? Not
> even a leak that hints at it? Is it all fan and media based rumour and there
> is no real basis to it at all?
There was lots of conjecture about it once it was known that Fred and
McLaren were parting ways. He got linked to lots of other teams too.
It may have come about because Fred's management were trying to talk
up the price.
What we do know is that Kimi is signed until end of 2009 and Massa
until end of 2010.
Jonathan Peirce
<christian...@welho.fi> said:
> They should also get a young gun instead of Rubens.
well they have Jense, and he didn't help...