Fastest race laps compared to best Fri/Sat times

[Brian Lawrence]

Best
C# Driver Team Fri/Sat Best Race Diff.
====================================================================
10 Lewis Hamilton Mercedes 1'20.972 Q3 1'27.895 -6.923
9 Nico Rosberg Mercedes 1'20.718 Q3 1'27.591 -6.873
17 Valtteri Bottas Williams-Renault 1'23.260 Q1 1'29.747 -6.487
1 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull-Renault 1'21.054 Q3 1'27.036 -5.982
19 Daniel Ricciardo T. Rosso-Ferrari 1'22.127 Q2 1'28.083 -5.956
5 Jenson Button McLaren-Mercedes 1'22.355 Q2 1'27.957 -5.602
7 Kimi R�ikk�nen Lotus-Renault 1'21.177 Q3 1'26.757 -5.580
3 Fernando Alonso Ferrari 1'21.218 Q3 1'26.681 -5.463
6 Sergio Perez McLaren-Mercedes 1'21.790 Q2 1'27.251 -5.461
2 Mark Webber Red Bull-Renault 1'21.570 Q3 1'27.017 -5.447
4 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1'21.219 Q3 1'26.394 -5.175
14 Paul di Resta F. India-Mercedes 1'22.019 Q2 1'26.776 -4.757
20 Charles Pic Caterham-Renault 1'24.775 FP3 1'29.362 -4.587
16 Pastor Maldonado Williams-Renault 1'23.318 Q1 1'27.849 -4.531
15 Adrian Sutil F. India-Mercedes 1'22.346 Q2 1'26.564 -4.218
11 Nico Hulkenberg Sauber-Ferrari 1'22.389 Q2 1'26.586 -4.197
22 Jules Bianchi Marussia-Cosworth 1'24.713 Q1 1'28.884 -4.171
12 Esteban Gutierrez Sauber-Ferrari 1'22.793 Q2 1'26.217 -3.424 [1]
23 Max Chilton Marussia-Cosworth 1'24.996 Q1 1'28.011 -3.015

Three drivers failed to finish the race and so their times were probably
slower than they might have achieved with a lighter fuel load.

18 Jean-Eric Vergne T. Rosso-Ferrari 1'22.166 Q2 1'28.231 -6.065
21 G. van der Garde Caterham-Renault 1'24.661 Q1 1'30.597 -5.936
8 Romain Grosjean Lotus-Renault 1'21.308 Q3 1'31.136 -9.828

Vergne completed 52 laps (of 66), Van der Garde 21 and Grosjean 8.

Note: Esteban's 1'26.217 was the fastest lap of the race - he also led
for two laps.

--

Brian W Lawrence
Wantage
Oxfordshire

[a425couple]

"Brian Lawrence" <Brian_W_...@msn.com> wrote in message...

> Best
> C# Driver Team Fri/Sat Best Race Diff.
=========================================================

> 10 Lewis Hamilton Mercedes 1'20.972 Q3 1'27.895 -6.923
> 9 Nico Rosberg Mercedes 1'20.718 Q3 1'27.591 -6.873
> 17 Valtteri Bottas Williams-Renault 1'23.260 Q1 1'29.747 -6.487
> 1 Sebastian Vettel Red Bull-Renault 1'21.054 Q3 1'27.036 -5.982
> 19 Daniel Ricciardo T. Rosso-Ferrari 1'22.127 Q2 1'28.083 -5.956
> 5 Jenson Button McLaren-Mercedes 1'22.355 Q2 1'27.957 -5.602

> 7 Kimi Räikkönen Lotus-Renault 1'21.177 Q3 1'26.757 -5.580

> 3 Fernando Alonso Ferrari 1'21.218 Q3 1'26.681 -5.463
> 6 Sergio Perez McLaren-Mercedes 1'21.790 Q2 1'27.251 -5.461
> 2 Mark Webber Red Bull-Renault 1'21.570 Q3 1'27.017 -5.447
> 4 Felipe Massa Ferrari 1'21.219 Q3 1'26.394 -5.175
> 14 Paul di Resta F. India-Mercedes 1'22.019 Q2 1'26.776 -4.757
> 20 Charles Pic Caterham-Renault 1'24.775 FP3 1'29.362 -4.587
> 16 Pastor Maldonado Williams-Renault 1'23.318 Q1 1'27.849 -4.531
> 15 Adrian Sutil F. India-Mercedes 1'22.346 Q2 1'26.564 -4.218
> 11 Nico Hulkenberg Sauber-Ferrari 1'22.389 Q2 1'26.586 -4.197
> 22 Jules Bianchi Marussia-Cosworth 1'24.713 Q1 1'28.884 -4.171
> 12 Esteban Gutierrez Sauber-Ferrari 1'22.793 Q2 1'26.217 -3.424 [1]
> 23 Max Chilton Marussia-Cosworth 1'24.996 Q1 1'28.011 -3.015

> -----

> Note: Esteban's 1'26.217 was the fastest lap of the race - he also led for
> two laps.

Very informative. Thank you Brian.
(pretty sorry indictment!! IMHO).

For comparison (some changes besides tires,,, BUT!!!),
In 2009, pole was 1.20.527, 4 others in 1:20---,
so 8 Qual under 1:22.000.

FL of Race 1:22.762.
Two had race FL in 1:22---
9 had race FL under 1:24.000
15 had race FL under 1:25.000

[Brian Lawrence]

On 14/05/2013 03:23, a425couple wrote:

> Very informative. Thank you Brian.
> (pretty sorry indictment!! IMHO).
>
> For comparison (some changes besides tires,,, BUT!!!),
> In 2009, pole was 1.20.527, 4 others in 1:20---,
> so 8 Qual under 1:22.000.
>
> FL of Race 1:22.762.
> Two had race FL in 1:22--- 9 had race FL under 1:24.000
> 15 had race FL under 1:25.000

Some more stats on comparing the Pole Position lap time to the Fastest
Race lap time (ignoring practice sessions which didn't count towards
qualifying).

There have been 883 World Championship races:

In 788 (89%) the pole position time was quicker than the race FL
In 91 (10%) the race fastest lap time was quicker than the PP time
In 4 (0.45%) the two times were exactly the same

Dealing with the latter 4 first:

Germany 1951 - 9'55.8s Ascari (PP), Fangio (FL)
Britain 1955 - 2'00.4s Moss (both)
Pescara 1957 - 9'44.6s Fangio (PP), Moss (FL)
Italy 1967 - 1'28.5s Clark (both)

All of those were hand-timed to the nearest tenth.

I want to take a closer look at the 91 races where the fastest lap was
quicker than the PP time. Clearly in many cases the weather will usually
have interfered with qualifying. In the meantime here is a count per
decade:

1950s 17 (includes one Indy 500, in 1955)
1960s 17
1970s 9
1980s 0
1990s 7
2000s 36 (includes 6 GPs in 2005 when PP was decided on aggregate)
2010s 5

The 5 since 2009 are:

Malaysia 2010 Mark Webber (both) FL 12s quicker
Brazil 2010 Hulkenberg/Hamilton FL 0.6s
Britain 2012 Alonso/Räikkönen FL 17s
Germany 2012 Alonso/Schumacher FL 21s
Malaysia 2013 Vettel/Perez FL 10s

In the 788 races where PP was quicker, the all-time average difference
is ~3.5s, or about 3.7%. The figures per year for the current Pirelli
era are:

2011 4.2s 4.9%
2012 4.0s 4.5%
2013 3.5s 4.1% (only 4 races counted)

For comparison these are the figures for 2001-10:

2001 2.8s 3.4% Bridgestone/Michelin
2002 2.9s 3.6% " "
2003 1.6s 2.0% " "
2004 0.9s 1.2% " "
2005 1.3s 1.5% " "
2006 1.7s 2.1% " "
2007 1.2s 1.4% Bridgestone
2008 1.4s 1.7% "
2009 2.2s 2.3% "
2010 3.6s 4.0% "

Non-emergency tyre changes were banned in 2005, but reinstated in 2006.
Up to 2008 tyres were grooved with slicks returning in 2009.
Two two compounds per race rule was introduced in 2007.

[Mark Jackson]

On 5/14/2013 3:30 PM, Brian Lawrence wrote:
> Germany 1951 - 9'55.8s Ascari (PP), Fangio (FL)
> Britain 1955 - 2'00.4s Moss (both)
> Pescara 1957 - 9'44.6s Fangio (PP), Moss (FL)
> Italy 1967 - 1'28.5s Clark (both)
>
> All of those were hand-timed to the nearest tenth.

I think you'll find that GB 1955 was timed to the nearest fifth. (All
the recorded tenths from that race are even.)

Dunno if this had anything to do with 1955 being the first British GP at
Aintree.

--
Mark Jackson - http://www.alumni.caltech.edu/~mjackson
Man will become better when you show him what he is like.
- Anton Chekhov

[Brian Lawrence]

On 14/05/2013 21:12, Mark Jackson wrote:
> On 5/14/2013 3:30 PM, Brian Lawrence wrote:
>> Germany 1951 - 9'55.8s Ascari (PP), Fangio (FL)
>> Britain 1955 - 2'00.4s Moss (both)
>> Pescara 1957 - 9'44.6s Fangio (PP), Moss (FL)
>> Italy 1967 - 1'28.5s Clark (both)
>>
>> All of those were hand-timed to the nearest tenth.
>
> I think you'll find that GB 1955 was timed to the nearest fifth. (All
> the recorded tenths from that race are even.)
>
> Dunno if this had anything to do with 1955 being the first British GP at
> Aintree.

Now you mention it - all timings for pole & f.lap at the British GP are
even until 1964. All qualifying times for GBR 55 are also even, so I
think that in Britain, the timings were only accurate to a fifth for all
races up to 1964. However, I'll double check in more detail.

I seem to recall that there were several timekeepers who hand-timed
several cars per race - possibly 5 each, but that might be a complete
guess on my part, possibly based on something I read.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Wednesday, May 15, 2013 7:30:56 AM UTC+12, Brian Lawrence wrote:
> Some more stats on comparing the Pole Position lap time to the Fastest
> Race lap time (ignoring practice sessions which didn't count towards
> qualifying).

Very interesting.

Can you do the same for average lap time instead of fastest? (i.e. total race time divided by the number of laps) (or race average speed vs quail average speed)

This will naturally be a much bigger difference, not the least because it will include the pit times, but would I think be interesting.

[Bobster]

On May 14, 9:30 pm, Brian Lawrence <Brian_W_Lawre...@msn.com> wrote:
<snip>

> In the 788 races where PP was quicker, the all-time average difference
> is ~3.5s, or about 3.7%. The figures per year for the current Pirelli
> era are:
>
> 2011    4.2s   4.9%
> 2012    4.0s   4.5%
> 2013    3.5s   4.1%   (only 4 races counted)
>
> For comparison these are the figures for 2001-10:
>
> 2001    2.8s   3.4%    Bridgestone/Michelin
> 2002    2.9s   3.6%         "         "
> 2003    1.6s   2.0%         "         "
> 2004    0.9s   1.2%         "         "
> 2005    1.3s   1.5%         "         "
> 2006    1.7s   2.1%         "         "
> 2007    1.2s   1.4%    Bridgestone
> 2008    1.4s   1.7%         "
> 2009    2.2s   2.3%         "
> 2010    3.6s   4.0%         "

Ah! Now the figures are starting to be illuminating. Thanks for the
analysis.

[Brian Lawrence]

I'll see what I can do - the data is readily available. I'll assume only
recent data (since 2000?).

As an aside, race average speed, pole position average speed & fastest
race lap average speed are usually published in the race results on
websites, magazines, etc.

[a425couple]

"Brian Lawrence" <Brian_W_...@msn.com> wrote in message...

> On 14/05/2013 21:12, Mark Jackson wrote:
>> On 5/14/2013 3:30 PM, Brian Lawrence wrote:
>>> Germany 1951 - 9'55.8s Ascari (PP), Fangio (FL)
>>> Britain 1955 - 2'00.4s Moss (both)
>>> Pescara 1957 - 9'44.6s Fangio (PP), Moss (FL)

>>> All of those were hand-timed to the nearest tenth.
>>
>> I think you'll find that GB 1955 was timed to the nearest fifth. (All

>> the recorded tenths from that race are even.) ----

>
> Now you mention it - all timings for pole & f.lap at the British GP are
> even until 1964. All qualifying times for GBR 55 are also even, so I
> think that in Britain, the timings were only accurate to a fifth for all
> races up to 1964. However, I'll double check in more detail.
>
> I seem to recall that there were several timekeepers who hand-timed
> several cars per race - possibly 5 each, but that might be a complete
> guess on my part, possibly based on something I read.

I was a volunteer 'race official' in USA from 1964 to 1968,
and worked in "Timing and Scoring".
Although I was used pretty exclusively in scoring,
we worked near the timers. When a timer only had to
cover 3 cars they felt lucky. Five got to be quite
busy (and one really hoped that the person doing
the assignments (of cars that spread out quickly)
was predicting correctly.
I have an old stop watch in a box somewhere,
kind'a thought it was to 1/10ths,,,,, but ?

[Brian Lawrence]

There may have been a difference between what was 'recorded' and what
was officially published. I've seen some qualifying times where some
times are given to one hundredth and others to one tenth.

Times were issued by the race organisers back then and were not always
consistent.

[a425couple]

"Brian Lawrence" <Brian_W_...@msn.com> wrote in message...
> a425couple wrote:
>> "Brian Lawrence" <Brian_W_...@msn.com> wrote in message...

Well, I continue to find Mark's point interesting.
While it's just rather random spot checking
(some years, all GPs, one source all Brit. GPs, etc.),
the findings are consistent.

Every other country, in Qualifying & Results, uses to one tenth.
The British until 1964 only go to fifths.

Certainly it did not take the UK 19 years after WWII
to afford new stop watches,,,, so, WHY?

[Brian Lawrence]

I'm still 'working' on some more detailed analysis, but it looks as
though Monza 1950 and USA 1960 were also timed to the nearest fifth of a
second, although the fastest lap in the USA was published to the nearest
10th. Also, at Spa 1950-53 qualifying times appear to be to the nearest
second only (also true for GBR 1952-54).

In the same period the Indy 500 was timing to 1/100th, as did Spain in
1951, and Portugal 1958-60.

As to why Britain did not have more accurate timing, I don't know, but
the change came in 1964 when the GP was held at Brands Hatch for the
first time. Previous races had either been at Silverstone or Aintree,
where facilities may have been a bit 'primitive'.

[a425couple]

2 comments: As to your --
> I'm still --- but it looks as though --- USA 1960 were also timed to the

> nearest fifth of a second, although the fastest lap in the USA was
> published to the nearest 10th.

Yes, seems strange, but I agree as to "looks as though".
Strange that 1959 at Sebring, more accurate than 1960 at Riverside.

and --
> Previous races had either been at -- Aintree,

> where facilities may have been a bit 'primitive'.

Aintree was, and is, rather famous for horse racing.
In the USA I believe that very serious betting and
recording of exact times are done for horse races.
So,,, 'they' skip it for auto racing???

Ohh Well, apart from it just being a strange puzzel,
probably not worth a worry.

But seriously, there is something seriously wrong when
the results of Qual, have this little a connection to the race!