Seb/Webbo controversy

[Zeppo Marx]

I saw Webbo very vocal about the team orders issues and how he followed
those and Seb choose not to. Now I read Seb plays along and does some
apologizing. However, in my personal view, all this is just for the
show. I do not believe a second that Seb means what he is saying. He did
what he thought OK on the track. And he would do it again, if
opportunity occurs.
Now, thinking back on 2012 season, I cannot help myself but thinking
*"why the hell not?"*.

In 2012 Webbo always went an extra mile to explain how his job is, first
and foremost, to drive races for himself. And how it's *not* his job to
support Seb in his efforts to win another title. He did not accept team
orders and was very vocal about that back then. In the last race in
Brazil, where everyone sane has expected him to finally drop this
attitude, since he didn't have a chance to win WDC anyway, and help his
team mate - he still refused to play by the team orders. And was vocal
about it too. I still remember how hard he made Seb's life in that race,
he really lived up to his words: by times it looked like Ferrari is
having 3 cars on the track and two of those were doing all they can to
help Alonso. Sadly, one of those was in an RBR livery.

Now, a few months later, when team orders were playing into his hands
for once, Webbo discovers his love for team orders and how wrong it is
not to follow those. And sulks into cameras: "What about MULTI 21?!".

Well, I would say "MULTI 21" went exactly there, where Webbo himself
sent "MULTI 12" a few times last year - Never Land. In my view, today
Seb decided it's a payback day for Webbo. Unfortunately for Webbo, Seb
used the same coins Webbo gave him the last season in abundance.

[Noj]

Zeppo Marx wrote ...

If Webber hadn't been following team orders for the last 3 seasons, he
would have been replaced. (By LH)

There will always be a difference between what's said in public and that
ordered in private. Even now, DC and his manager Brundle are not
prepared to discuss the finer details of team orders DC had to follow at
McLaren. (I know this because Brundle bought it up on Sky today)

Bottom line - teams want as many points as they can get to earn dosh
from the Dwarf. Who gets them is often secondary, unless it's Ferrari
who get loadsa dosh however their cars perform.

[Steve Thompson]

On Sun, 24 Mar 2013, Zeppo Marx wrote:

> Now, a few months later, when team orders were playing into his hands for
> once, Webbo discovers his love for team orders and how wrong it is not to
> follow those. And sulks into cameras: "What about MULTI 21?!".

This is hardly the same thing. One is team orders, the other not.

-steve

[Zeppo Marx]

On 24.03.13 23:54, Noj wrote:
> If Webber hadn't been following team orders for the last 3 seasons, he
> would have been replaced. (By LH)

Well, I am not as sure there as you are. Even Horner said (today's post
race interview) that this is not a new situation between his 2 drivers.
"This happened before, this also happened other way around and this will
happen again". And he explicitly mentioned 2010 Turky race and Brazil
2012, where MW chose not to follow the team orders.
(Do you remember after race interviews where MW was claiming that he is
there to race and win and not to support Seb's efforts to win another
title. And his complete and utter lack of understanding why Seb was
upset. "Well, I can only say: sorry mate!")

Today, because the team order favored him, MW wanted to follow them and
was pretty upset because SV chose not to. This is kind of "eating his
own dog food": he knows now beyond any doubt, that Seb is there to race
and win and not to support his efforts to win another race.

Anyways, this will not end here and today and I am really curious how
this all shebang develops.

>
> There will always be a difference between what's said in public and that
> ordered in private. Even now, DC and his manager Brundle are not
> prepared to discuss the finer details of team orders DC had to follow at
> McLaren. (I know this because Brundle bought it up on Sky today)

Yup, true.

> Bottom line - teams want as many points as they can get to earn dosh
> from the Dwarf. Who gets them is often secondary, unless it's Ferrari
> who get loadsa dosh however their cars perform.

Also true. :)

[RzR]

On 24.3.2013. 23:07, Zeppo Marx wrote:
> I saw Webbo very vocal about the team orders issues and how he followed
> those and Seb choose not to. Now I read Seb plays along and does some
> apologizing. However, in my personal view, all this is just for the
> show. I do not believe a second that Seb means what he is saying. He did
> what he thought OK on the track. And he would do it again, if
> opportunity occurs.
> Now, thinking back on 2012 season, I cannot help myself but thinking
> *"why the hell not?"*.
>

little bitch pulled the fast one, i imagine he will have to give one
back to webber very soon...

[Zeppo Marx]

Er, how so? In 2012 Brazil race MW was explicitly given the team order
*not* to attack SV. And he did. And he ended up in front of SV. Although
this could have cost SV the 2012 WDC title. We all know it didn't - but
it could have.

I am not saying Seb was right and Webbo was not. Or vice versa. Just
giving my opinion about what I think really happened. Seb chose not to
follow the team order like Webbo did at least a few times in the past.
No big deal - just a payday.

[AC]

They can say what they like, what counts is what happens ont he track.
If there have been times when Webber has been given direct team orders
and completely ignored them, like Vettel did, then OK. But if that is
what going on, RBR need to basically abandon the idea of team orders.

--
AC

[Sir Tim]

There is a good deal in what you say, especially as regards Webber's
attitude at the back end of last season, but what sticks in my craw is the
way that Vettel doesn't have the guts to say face to face "fuck you I'm
going to win any way I can" but apologizes and comes up with some cringing
excuse about doing it by mistake. FFS, it's difficult enough to overtake
when you mean to let alone "by mistake" (and then to hold on to your lead
for ten laps).
--
Henry Birkin, Bt.

[Edmund]

Yup thats the one with a perfect track record in being a team player and
following orders or keeping his word. :-)

Edmund

[Zeppo Marx]

On 25.03.13 00:56, AC wrote:
>
> They can say what they like, what counts is what happens ont he track.
> If there have been times when Webber has been given direct team orders
> and completely ignored them, like Vettel did, then OK.

In after race interview Horner mentioned that there were a few occasions
where MW ignored team orders and even named 2: 2010 Turkey and 2012
Brazil races.

> But if that is what going on, RBR need to basically abandon the idea of team orders.

Yup, agreed.

[Mower Man]

Senna, of course would not have given an excuse, nor would one have been
expected from him. Why, then did Vettel? Soft sod? Or craving sympathy?
You tell me?

I think he knows he's unpopular and does not like that.

--
Chris

'Fashion is a form of ugliness so intolerable that we have to alter it
every six months.'

(Oscar Wilde.)

[Zeppo Marx]

On 25.03.13 00:59, Sir Tim wrote:
>
> There is a good deal in what you say, especially as regards Webber's
> attitude at the back end of last season, but what sticks in my craw is the
> way that Vettel doesn't have the guts to say face to face "fuck you I'm
> going to win any way I can" but apologizes and comes up with some cringing
> excuse about doing it by mistake. FFS, it's difficult enough to overtake
> when you mean to let alone "by mistake" (and then to hold on to your lead
> for ten laps).
>

Basically he did say "fuck you all" but he chose other words to do so. :)
I have listened to his words on podium and in after the race interview:
there were *no* apologies. "I made a mistake" was the nearest to an
acknowledgment that he did something he shouldn't have done. This whole
"mea culpa" and other "apologizing" rubbish he uttered just happened
later. After Horner (or Marko or whoever) told him what is expected of
him now, from the team leaders, the team, sponsors and whom not.

I simply do not buy that he feels even a little bit of remorse for his
action on the track. He wanted to win, he won, he wants to move on now.

[Bruce Hoult]

On Monday, March 25, 2013 12:35:35 PM UTC+13, Zeppo Marx wrote:
> On 24.03.13 23:54, Noj wrote:
>
> > If Webber hadn't been following team orders for the last 3 seasons, he
>
> > would have been replaced. (By LH)
>
>
>
> Well, I am not as sure there as you are. Even Horner said (today's post
>
> race interview) that this is not a new situation between his 2 drivers.
>
> "This happened before, this also happened other way around and this will
>
> happen again". And he explicitly mentioned 2010 Turky race and Brazil
>
> 2012, where MW chose not to follow the team orders.
>
> (Do you remember after race interviews where MW was claiming that he is
>
> there to race and win and not to support Seb's efforts to win another
>
> title. And his complete and utter lack of understanding why Seb was
>
> upset. "Well, I can only say: sorry mate!")

The impression I got in Brazil (admittedly only from the telly) was that Mark might well let Seb past if Alonso was going to be WC without it, but not otherwise.

In the event he didn't need to, so I could well be mistaken.

I seem to recall another time last season where Mark was in front and the team simply told him to pit?

[~misfit~]

Somewhere on teh intarwebs Zeppo Marx wrote:
> On 25.03.13 00:56, AC wrote:
>>
>> They can say what they like, what counts is what happens ont he
>> track. If there have been times when Webber has been given direct team
>> orders and completely ignored them, like Vettel did, then OK.
>
> In after race interview Horner mentioned that there were a few
> occasions where MW ignored team orders and even named 2: 2010 Turkey
> and 2012 Brazil races.

What I remember after 2010 Turkey was Horner protesting that there were *no*
team orders. In fact team orders were illegal in F1 at the time. Charlie
needs to fine RBR $100 million, quick-smart. He has a very public confession
of rule-breaking in the public eye.
--
/Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a
cozy little classification in the DSM."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)

[Bobster]

On Monday, 25 March 2013 01:35:35 UTC+2, Zeppo Marx wrote:
> On 24.03.13 23:54, Noj wrote:
>
> > If Webber hadn't been following team orders for the last 3 seasons, he
>
> > would have been replaced. (By LH)
>
>
>
> Well, I am not as sure there as you are. Even Horner said (today's post
>
> race interview) that this is not a new situation between his 2 drivers.
>
> "This happened before, this also happened other way around and this will
>
> happen again". And he explicitly mentioned 2010 Turky race and Brazil
>
> 2012, where MW chose not to follow the team orders.

One report quoted Horner as saying that the trust between the drivers broke down as a result of Turkey 2010. So there's clearly not an ideal team dynamic there, and it won't get any easier now.

To address some points made elsewhere in this thread
1) I think there are less instances of team orders than are imagined.
2) There is a way for Seb to square this - which is to hand a win to Webber if the opportunity arises
3) I agree that Webber doth protest too much.
4) Team orders only work if both drivers are prepared to play the game. The moment one of them decides he's a racer first and a team member second then it ain't going to work.

[Bobster]

On Monday, 25 March 2013 05:39:03 UTC+2, ~misfit~ wrote:
> Somewhere on teh intarwebs Zeppo Marx wrote:
>
> > On 25.03.13 00:56, AC wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >> They can say what they like, what counts is what happens ont he
>
> >> track. If there have been times when Webber has been given direct team
>
> >> orders and completely ignored them, like Vettel did, then OK.
>
> >
>
> > In after race interview Horner mentioned that there were a few
>
> > occasions where MW ignored team orders and even named 2: 2010 Turkey
>
> > and 2012 Brazil races.
>
>
>
> What I remember after 2010 Turkey was Horner protesting that there were *no*
>
> team orders.

I think that Horner might be being misquoted in some quarters. He did mention Turkey 2010 but in the context of it being a clash between two drivers who the team would rather not be racing each other, and also in terms of that being the point at which the trust between Seb and Webber broke down.

"Let's be honest here, there's never been much trust between them since Istanbul 2010, but there is a respect between the two of them," he said. "If you think of Brazil at the last race [of 2012], Mark was told to hold position and he started racing him.

"These things happen, they are race drivers and they will push to the limit. That's part of their DNA and that's part of why we signed them to do the job they do and why they have performed so well for us as a pairing for the last five years."

http://en.espnf1.com/malaysia/motorsport/story/104165.html

> In fact team orders were illegal in F1 at the time. Charlie
>
> needs to fine RBR $100 million, quick-smart. He has a very public confession
>
> of rule-breaking in the public eye.

There was a team that issued team orders in 2010. FIA - assuming they are able to - can hardly fine RBR more than that team got fined.

[Bigbird]

Zeppo Marx wrote:

> I saw Webbo very vocal about the team orders issues and how he
> followed those and Seb choose not to. Now I read Seb plays along and
> does some apologizing. However, in my personal view, all this is just
> for the show. I do not believe a second that Seb means what he is
> saying. He did what he thought OK on the track. And he would do it
> again, if opportunity occurs. Now, thinking back on 2012 season, I
> cannot help myself but thinking *"why the hell not?"*.
>
> In 2012 Webbo always went an extra mile to explain how his job is,

> first and foremost, to drive races for himself. And how it's not his

> job to support Seb in his efforts to win another title. He did not
> accept team orders and was very vocal about that back then. In the
> last race in Brazil, where everyone sane has expected him to finally
> drop this attitude, since he didn't have a chance to win WDC anyway,
> and help his team mate - he still refused to play by the team orders.
> And was vocal about it too. I still remember how hard he made Seb's
> life in that race, he really lived up to his words: by times it
> looked like Ferrari is having 3 cars on the track and two of those
> were doing all they can to help Alonso. Sadly, one of those was in an
> RBR livery.
>
> Now, a few months later, when team orders were playing into his hands
> for once, Webbo discovers his love for team orders and how wrong it
> is not to follow those. And sulks into cameras: "What about MULTI
> 21?!".
>
> Well, I would say "MULTI 21" went exactly there, where Webbo himself
> sent "MULTI 12" a few times last year - Never Land. In my view, today
> Seb decided it's a payback day for Webbo. Unfortunately for Webbo,
> Seb used the same coins Webbo gave him the last season in abundance.

You say that but just like Red Bull, you know it's hot air bollocks
don't you.

Was Webber ignore any team orders? Was it reasonable for Vettel to take
advantage of Webber following instructions, making himself vulnerable,
while throwing caution to the wind.

Consider what your opinion would be had Vettel (or both of them)
wrecked his tyres (as RBR feared) and fallen behind the Mercedes. Would
your opinion be any different? If so then you know you are talking Bull.

[Bigbird]

Zeppo Marx wrote:

> On 25.03.13 00:59, Sir Tim wrote:
> >
> > There is a good deal in what you say, especially as regards Webber's
> > attitude at the back end of last season, but what sticks in my craw
> > is the way that Vettel doesn't have the guts to say face to face
> > "fuck you I'm going to win any way I can" but apologizes and comes
> > up with some cringing excuse about doing it by mistake. FFS, it's
> > difficult enough to overtake when you mean to let alone "by
> > mistake" (and then to hold on to your lead for ten laps).
> >
>
> Basically he did say "fuck you all" but he chose other words to do
> so. :) I have listened to his words on podium and in after the race

> interview: there were no apologies. "I made a mistake" was the

> nearest to an acknowledgment that he did something he shouldn't have
> done. This whole "mea culpa" and other "apologizing" rubbish he
> uttered just happened later. After Horner (or Marko or whoever) told
> him what is expected of him now, from the team leaders, the team,
> sponsors and whom not.
>
> I simply do not buy that he feels even a little bit of remorse for
> his action on the track. He wanted to win, he won, he wants to move
> on now.

The phrase 'Schumacheresque' was used about his conduct. If you are
right then it won't be for the first time.

[RzR]

kudos to webber for not putting little thwerp outside the race, because
he had a get-out-of-jail-free card, as everyone would have blamed vettel.

[Zeppo Marx]

On 25.03.13 10:45, Bigbird wrote:

> You say that but just like Red Bull, you know it's hot air bollocks
> don't you.

How so? I didn't bash Seb or try to apologize his move. Because I really
don't care. Team orders are not forbidden and not respecting them is not
unheard of. I just gave my view of what I think happened.

> Was Webber ignore any team orders? Was it reasonable for Vettel to take
> advantage of Webber following instructions, making himself vulnerable,
> while throwing caution to the wind.

Well, Webber didn't. Better say: this time he chose not to ignore them.
Seb won his last WDC with only by 3 points difference, sweating
profusely. With his team mate overtaking him against the team orders and
his worst competitor still within the reach of a few more points. Close
call. So, this time, very early in the game, he chose to ignore the team
orders and take as many points as he can. As often as he can. This year
there will be no repetition of the 2012 final race for him.
I don't cheer him for that. But I don't blame him as well.

> Consider what your opinion would be had Vettel (or both of them)
> wrecked his tyres (as RBR feared) and fallen behind the Mercedes. Would
> your opinion be any different? If so then you know you are talking Bull.
>

I would have taken the result as unfased as I took the actual one. You
might not recall but I always said that there is no specific team or
driver I cheer for. I just like watching the races.

If there was anything I really didn't like in this race was Niko's
stupid repeating of the overtaking move on Lewis in the corner before
the DRS straight. And maybe him *not* ignoring the team orders.

[Bigbird]

Zeppo Marx wrote:

> On 25.03.13 10:45, Bigbird wrote:
>
> > You say that but just like Red Bull, you know it's hot air bollocks
> > don't you.
>
> How so?

<sigh>

Do try reading ahead a little.

>
> > Consider what your opinion would be had Vettel (or both of them)
> > wrecked his tyres (as RBR feared) and fallen behind the Mercedes.
> > Would your opinion be any different? If so then you know you are
> > talking Bull.
> >
>
> I would have taken the result as unfased as I took the actual one.
> You might not recall but I always said that there is no specific team
> or driver I cheer for.

(That's not quite true is it. I can usually predict who's side of any
controversy you will fall on.)

> I just like watching the races.

You are missing the point by a country mile (I don't know WTF your
feelings have to do with it). If Vettel had destroyed his tyres and
lost places would you still think he did the right thing in ignoring
instructions?

[Bobster]

On Monday, 25 March 2013 12:43:13 UTC+2, Zeppo Marx wrote:
<snip>

> Well, Webber didn't. Better say: this time he chose not to ignore them.
>
> Seb won his last WDC with only by 3 points difference, sweating
>
> profusely. With his team mate overtaking him against the team orders and
>
> his worst competitor still within the reach of a few more points. Close
>
> call. So, this time, very early in the game, he chose to ignore the team
>
> orders and take as many points as he can. As often as he can. This year
>
> there will be no repetition of the 2012 final race for him.
>
> I don't cheer him for that. But I don't blame him as well.

Exactly. It's a popular argument that there's no reason that Webber should trust Vettel to play the game, but the reverse is true too and you give us the instance. The only thing I don't understand is why everybody in RBR is pussyfooting around. There is no particular reason that Vettel should have believed that Webber would stick to team orders - after all, just two races ago he not only publicly stated that he wasn't there to help Vettel but when the call did come he did not heed it.

I don't think they trust each other, I think there are reasons on both sides for that, and I think expecting either of them to say to himself "OK... the team wants me to let him take it, and I know he would do the same if the positions were reversed" is naive (even if your name is Christian Horner).

The only reason for great unhappiness is if Horner sat them down before the season or even before this race and said that under certain circumstances he would make certain calls and he expected them both to comply and they both gave their word that they would. We might read this into Webber's pronouncements, but my take on Webber is that he's very good at dropping the media enough crumbs that something may be inferred, but he's not as straight forward and up front as public perception has it. He did, after all, once conceal a non-trivial physical injury from his team.

[Brian Lawrence]

On 24/03/2013 23:48, Zeppo Marx wrote:
> On 25.03.13 00:11, Steve Thompson wrote:
>> On Sun, 24 Mar 2013, Zeppo Marx wrote:
>>
>>> Now, a few months later, when team orders were playing into his hands
>>> for once, Webbo discovers his love for team orders and how wrong it is
>>> not to follow those. And sulks into cameras: "What about MULTI 21?!".
>>
>> This is hardly the same thing. One is team orders, the other not.
>>
>> -steve
>
> Er, how so? In 2012 Brazil race MW was explicitly given the team order
> *not* to attack SV. And he did. And he ended up in front of SV.

My memory isn't what it was - when did MW attack SV in Brazil? Mark was
ahead from the start to lap 6, Seb dropped to last in lap one, but Mark
had a similar incident on lap 7. When Seb pitted on lap 10 he seems to
have rejoined behind Mark, but passed him on lap 12. Seb was ahead of
Mark until lap 52 when Seb pitted again, leaving Mark ahead until the
end of the race. I can't see anywhere that MW passed SV on the track -
from the lap chart.

> Although
> this could have cost SV the 2012 WDC title. We all know it didn't - but
> it could have.
>
> I am not saying Seb was right and Webbo was not. Or vice versa. Just
> giving my opinion about what I think really happened. Seb chose not to
> follow the team order like Webbo did at least a few times in the past.
> No big deal - just a payday.

--

Brian W Lawrence
Wantage
Oxfordshire

[Zeppo Marx]

On 25.03.13 12:02, Bigbird wrote:
> Zeppo Marx wrote:
>
>> On 25.03.13 10:45, Bigbird wrote:
>>
>>> You say that but just like Red Bull, you know it's hot air bollocks
>>> don't you.
>>
>> How so?
>
> <sigh>
>
> Do try reading ahead a little.

Bird, you claim that I "know". I don't. I just have an opinion about the
things I witnessed.

>
>>
>>> Consider what your opinion would be had Vettel (or both of them)
>>> wrecked his tyres (as RBR feared) and fallen behind the Mercedes.
>>> Would your opinion be any different? If so then you know you are
>>> talking Bull.
>>>
>>
>> I would have taken the result as unfased as I took the actual one.
>> You might not recall but I always said that there is no specific team
>> or driver I cheer for.
>
> (That's not quite true is it. I can usually predict who's side of any
> controversy you will fall on.)

I don't have a side here.

>> I just like watching the races.
>
> You are missing the point by a country mile (I don't know WTF your
> feelings have to do with it). If Vettel had destroyed his tyres and
> lost places would you still think he did the right thing in ignoring
> instructions?
>

Again: I don't think he did the right or the wrong thing. I just saw
what he did and tried to understand. Like in building an opinion. Taking
in count what happened before between those two team mates, I believe I
understood. Since I am not emotionally invested (read: fan) of RBR or
either drivers, I simply didn't chalk this incident as right or wrong one.

[larkim]

Christian Horner seems to think there was some issue:-
http://www.espn.co.uk/malaysia/motorsport/story/104165.html

I'm with you, I don't remember it.

Matt

[Zeppo Marx]

On 25.03.13 13:16, Brian Lawrence wrote:
>
> My memory isn't what it was - when did MW attack SV in Brazil? Mark was
> ahead from the start to lap 6, Seb dropped to last in lap one, but Mark
> had a similar incident on lap 7. When Seb pitted on lap 10 he seems to
> have rejoined behind Mark, but passed him on lap 12. Seb was ahead of
> Mark until lap 52 when Seb pitted again, leaving Mark ahead until the
> end of the race. I can't see anywhere that MW passed SV on the track -
> from the lap chart.
>

Brian, you are completely right. I just used Horners comment out of that
interview. I thought he knew better then anyone what went down.

[Bobster]

Webber qualified one place ahead of Seb, and then moved to block Seb off the start. We might argue that it's not attacking Seb but defending from Seb, but in either even it was not a move calculated to help Webber and the the team score a WDC. But then Webber had already told anybody who would listen that it wasn't his job to help Vettel.

Horner might also have mentioned Silverstone 2011 when Webber was ordered to hold position but continued to attack Vettel. He didn't get past, but that's not the point. The point is that he disobeyed the instruction.

Webber is not well placed to complain that his team mate doesn't follow team orders.

[Bigbird]

Well I certainly had the opinion from your OP that you thought he did
the right thing. Your whole rant seemed to be justification for Vettel
and it's difficult to read it any other way.

[Yuhler G]

On article <kintf9$nm5$1...@tota-refugium.de>, Zeppo Marx wrote:

>
> I saw Webbo very vocal about the team orders issues and how he followed
> those and Seb choose not to. Now I read Seb plays along and does some
> apologizing. However, in my personal view, all this is just for the
> show. I do not believe a second that Seb means what he is saying. He did
> what he thought OK on the track. And he would do it again, if
> opportunity occurs.
> Now, thinking back on 2012 season, I cannot help myself but thinking
> *"why the hell not?"*.
>
> In 2012 Webbo always went an extra mile to explain how his job is, first

> and foremost, to drive races for himself. And how it's *not* his job to

> support Seb in his efforts to win another title. He did not accept team
> orders and was very vocal about that back then. In the last race in
> Brazil, where everyone sane has expected him to finally drop this
> attitude, since he didn't have a chance to win WDC anyway, and help his
> team mate - he still refused to play by the team orders. And was vocal
> about it too. I still remember how hard he made Seb's life in that race,
> he really lived up to his words: by times it looked like Ferrari is
> having 3 cars on the track and two of those were doing all they can to
> help Alonso. Sadly, one of those was in an RBR livery.
>

> Now, a few months later, when team orders were playing into his hands
> for once, Webbo discovers his love for team orders and how wrong it is
> not to follow those. And sulks into cameras: "What about MULTI 21?!".
>

> Well, I would say "MULTI 21" went exactly there, where Webbo himself
> sent "MULTI 12" a few times last year - Never Land. In my view, today
> Seb decided it's a payback day for Webbo. Unfortunately for Webbo, Seb
> used the same coins Webbo gave him the last season in abundance.

I agree with you except for the payback thing. There isn't time for such thing
during a race, just overtake until your first. All this bullshit about team
orders is what makes F1 so boring these days.

--
Best,
Yuhler G.

Please, reply preferably to the list.
Reply-To: yuhler at gmail dot com
Due to spam I'm filtering-out GoogleGroups. Sorry. :(

[Zeppo Marx]

On 25.03.13 18:32, Bigbird wrote:
> Well I certainly had the opinion from your OP that you thought he did
> the right thing. Your whole rant seemed to be justification for Vettel
> and it's difficult to read it any other way.

Well, you chose to read it that way. Others didn't.
You tend to assume that every of my posts are statements for or against
any given driver I wrote about. And that's not the case most of the
times. If I choose sides, I write so in a plain sight with no room for
interpretation.
In case of this controversy I just wrote about what I believe is Seb's
motivation for the move in the race. And I expressed my surprise seeing
Webbo whining and acting surprised, although he should know better,
after all what went on between him and Seb in last few years.

Also, trying to explain why I believe that Seb did what he did does
*not* mean I am trying to justify his doing.

But you can prove me wrong by showing the passage in this or any other
of my posts regarding this situation, where I support the view "Seb did
right".

[Zeppo Marx]

On 25.03.13 20:09, Yuhler G wrote:
> I agree with you except for the payback thing. There isn't time for such thing
> during a race, just overtake until your first.

Let's agree to disagree. I really believe that Seb's personality is like
that. In my view, he has one of those "elephant memories". For all the
good things, but also for those he considers "bad". By all things I saw
from him over the years (and strictly in my view) - he is not beyond
such mundane things like a cold revenge.
Anyways, I do believe that his move on Webbo was predominated and
deliberate. And that he does not feel the slightest remorse having done
it, no matter words he used after the fact.

> All this bullshit about team orders is what makes F1 so boring these days.

I cannot agree more.

[front...@gmail.com]

Webber is a twat. He's incapable of competing equally against Vettel so he had to rely on team orders? What a load of horse shit! He's only embarrassed himself with his child like tantrum in parke ferme and on the podium. What a sniveling, snot nosed twat.

I remember all the sheep shaggers assailing Ferrari, during Schumi's romp to the record, about team orders. Now those same sheep shaggers are all over Vettel about NOT following team orders? WTF are you on about? Team orders have only ever existed to keep the organ grinders monkey at bay. Webber is that monkey.

Mark Webber is the recipient of the lucky sperm award for being gifted with a ride in the best F1 car for a few years going. He's by no means the equal of Sebastian Vettel, not even close. He has to learn his place in the grand scheme of thing. He's second banana. Any member of the current F1 grid could take Webbers place and compete close to the front, simply by the superb and superior design of the RB9.

So, Mr. Webber, do us all the kind favour of keeping your crying tantrums private and your mouth shut, you talentless, sausage grinder.

I want to see a race won based on merit, not team orders and not because some f-tard is crying and stomping his little feet.

The End.

[Bruce Hoult]

I don't think anyone, let alone Mark Webber, thinks that he is a more talented driver than Vettel. That doesn't mean he's crap though.

Of the current drivers, I'd say that Fred, Seb, Lewis, Kimi are clearly better than Webber. Another handful are pretty much on the same level of dependability: Jenson, Felipe, Nico. The rest are worse, either in lacking speed or DNFing too much or simply insufficiently proven to be a reliable help for the WCC as yet, even in a top car.

It's interesting to look back a few seasons, before the RB dominance.

Races won in 2009:
1: Kimi
2: Mark, Reubens, Lewis
4: Sebastian
6: Jenson

Obviously Jenson lucked into a great car, especially at the start of the season. No sign of Fred, despite his greatness (and he was 9th in the WDC).

[Mower Man]

Why oh why don't you say what you mean?

(Another over 79 character per line rubbish poster, BTW)

[Sir Tim]

<front...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Any member of the current F1 grid could take Webbers place and compete
> close to the front, simply by the superb and superior design of the RB9.

Yes, rather galling that those ghastly sheepshaggers can design such a
great car isn't it?

--
Henry Birkin, Bt.

[News]

A veritable F1 appliance.

[Bigbird]

Zeppo Marx wrote:

> On 25.03.13 18:32, Bigbird wrote:
> > Well I certainly had the opinion from your OP that you thought he
> > did the right thing. Your whole rant seemed to be justification for
> > Vettel and it's difficult to read it any other way.
>
> Well, you chose to read it that way. Others didn't.
> You tend to assume that every of my posts are statements for or
> against any given driver I wrote about. And that's not the case most
> of the times. If I choose sides, I write so in a plain sight with no
> room for interpretation. In case of this controversy I just wrote
> about what I believe is Seb's motivation for the move in the race.
> And I expressed my surprise seeing Webbo whining and acting
> surprised, although he should know better, after all what went on
> between him and Seb in last few years.
>
> Also, trying to explain why I believe that Seb did what he did does

> not mean I am trying to justify his doing.

>
> But you can prove me wrong by showing the passage in this or any
> other of my posts regarding this situation, where I support the view
> "Seb did right".

Like I say the fact you felt the need, and went to some length, to
explain on Vettels behalf looks like an attempt to justify his actions.
Even leaning on some somewhat doubtful assertions regarding Webbers
actions in Brasil which you haven't supported.

[Bigbird]

Yuhler G wrote:

>
> On article <kintf9$nm5$1...@tota-refugium.de>, Zeppo Marx wrote:
>
> >
> > I saw Webbo very vocal about the team orders issues and how he
> > followed those and Seb choose not to. Now I read Seb plays along
> > and does some apologizing. However, in my personal view, all this
> > is just for the show. I do not believe a second that Seb means what
> > he is saying. He did what he thought OK on the track. And he would
> > do it again, if opportunity occurs.
> > Now, thinking back on 2012 season, I cannot help myself but
> > thinking *"why the hell not?"*.
> >
> > In 2012 Webbo always went an extra mile to explain how his job is,

> > first and foremost, to drive races for himself. And how it's not

> > his job to support Seb in his efforts to win another title. He did
> > not accept team orders and was very vocal about that back then. In
> > the last race in Brazil, where everyone sane has expected him to
> > finally drop this attitude, since he didn't have a chance to win
> > WDC anyway, and help his team mate - he still refused to play by
> > the team orders. And was vocal about it too. I still remember how
> > hard he made Seb's life in that race, he really lived up to his
> > words: by times it looked like Ferrari is having 3 cars on the
> > track and two of those were doing all they can to help Alonso.
> > Sadly, one of those was in an RBR livery.
> >
> > Now, a few months later, when team orders were playing into his
> > hands for once, Webbo discovers his love for team orders and how
> > wrong it is not to follow those. And sulks into cameras: "What
> > about MULTI 21?!".
> >
> > Well, I would say "MULTI 21" went exactly there, where Webbo
> > himself sent "MULTI 12" a few times last year - Never Land. In my
> > view, today Seb decided it's a payback day for Webbo. Unfortunately
> > for Webbo, Seb used the same coins Webbo gave him the last season
> > in abundance.
>
> I agree with you except for the payback thing. There isn't time for
> such thing during a race, just overtake until your first. All this
> bullshit about team orders is what makes F1 so boring these days.

Well they certainly had the wool pulled over your eyes. :)

[Bigbird]

Mower Man wrote:

> He's by no means the equal of Sebastian Vettel, not even close. He
> has to learn his place in the grand scheme of thing. He's second

Character count please. :)

>
>
> (Another over 79 character per line rubbish poster, BTW)

Egg meets face.

If they bother you just filter out googlegroups.

[Brian Lawrence]

Well he was closer to events than we were so he should know better ....

[Diabolik]

This might be a dumb question, but if Webber had already been instructed to
turn his engine down, can he easily turn it up again once he sees Vettel
behind him?

If so, how long would it take to turn the engine back up?

[Zeppo Marx]

On 26.03.13 10:42, Bigbird wrote:
> Like I say the fact you felt the need, and went to some length, to
> explain on Vettels behalf looks like an attempt to justify his actions.

Well, I didn't felt the need, I just wanted to share my view of the most
exposed and discussed moment of the race. And because Seb's move got me
thinking more than i.e. the stupid FA/Ferrari decision to stay out with
a broken wing. This I chalked up as "mistake" and forgot instantly. It's
just more intriguing and, like many others, I was trying to rationalize it.

> Even leaning on some somewhat doubtful assertions regarding Webbers
> actions in Brasil which you haven't supported.

Doubtful assertions?! Even Horner confirmed that the grudge between his
two drivers goes back to Brazil and Webbo's actions there. If you don't
remember or choose not believe me, Horner should be the one you should
listen to. For my part, I believe he knows what he is talking about.

[John Briggs]

The general consensus here is that he doesn't.
--
John Briggs

[John Briggs]

On 25/03/2013 23:16, Bruce Hoult wrote:
>
> It's interesting to look back a few seasons, before the RB dominance.
>
> Races won in 2009:
> 1: Kimi
> 2: Mark, Reubens, Lewis
> 4: Sebastian
> 6: Jenson
>
> Obviously Jenson lucked into a great car, especially at the start of the season. No sign of Fred, despite his greatness (and he was 9th in the WDC).

Not exactly luck - he'd spent two years waiting for them to design the
damned thing, building on the success of the 2006 car.
--
John Briggs

[jm...@sapo.pt]

First of all Vettel is not Senna. Senna never apolopysed for anything, even when he screwed up big time.

Also, I understood Vettel's sorry words as complete hipocrisy. I don't believe he regrets anything. He's just trying to soften things a bit.

Also, a word for the ones who still find space to trash Webber: Webber may not be as good as Vettel, but he deserves as much respect as anyone else. Vettel may be one of the top drivers of the moment (and maybe of all times), but he's not above basic ethics. He has acted like a backstabber, and I see no room for any excuses.

He may disagree with team orders, but if he did, he should have told Horner before the race: "I don't agree with team orders. I'm attacking Webber if I find myself in position to do so, and I expect him to do the same".

But he didn't do that. He agreed with team orders, and he would probably be complaining if the oposite had happened.

I also don't remember any occasion where Webber has disrespected team orders. I sincerely doubt that he could keep his place in the team, if he ever did that.

I hope Vettel gets what he deserves, even if I doubt that any punishment from RBR ever comes.

[Bobster]

On Mar 26, 5:49 pm, j...@sapo.pt wrote:
> First of all Vettel is not Senna. Senna never apolopysed for anything, even when he screwed up big time.

Senna was actually happy to play the team orders game. At Japan in
1991, with the championship still not settled, Berger was expected to
give up his race for Senna. Once Mansell was out of the race the team
decided that Senna should give the win to Berger as a gesture of
gratitude for having been a team player. Senna did - though he made a
bit of a show of it.

But I'm not sure what your point is here. Is Vettel better or worse
than Senna for apologising?

>
> Also, I understood Vettel's sorry words as complete hipocrisy. I don't believe he regrets anything. He's just trying to soften things a bit.
>
> Also, a word for the ones who still find space to trash Webber: Webber may not be as good as Vettel, but he deserves as much respect as anyone else. Vettel may be one of the top drivers of the moment (and maybe of all times), but he's not above basic ethics. He has acted like a backstabber, and I see no room for any excuses.
>
> He may disagree with team orders, but if he did, he should have told Horner before the race: "I don't agree with team orders. I'm attacking Webber if I find myself in position to do so, and I expect him to do the same".

Well, it occurs to me that it would be easy to sit in the motor home
and agree to do the decent thing for the team blah blah and then find
that when push comes to shove and there's a race win at stake that
it's hard to resist the temptation. Which is basically what happened
with Reutemann in 1981. He'd agreed that Jones should have priority,
but when he had a race win dangling in front of him he decided that he
was going to take it.

>
> But he didn't do that. He agreed with team orders, and he would probably be complaining if the oposite had happened.
>
> I also don't remember any occasion where Webber has disrespected team orders. I sincerely doubt that he could keep his place in the team, if he ever did that.

In 2011 the RBRs were running 2-3 at Silverstone after the final pit
stops - Vettel ahead of Webber. Horner told Webber not to attempt to
pass Seb. What did Webber do? He tried to take 2nd from Seb. He didn't
take the place - but that's not the point, his intent was clearly to
disregard the team orders and try to take position and points from his
team mate.

[Yousuf Khan]

On 24/03/2013 6:07 PM, Zeppo Marx wrote:
> I saw Webbo very vocal about the team orders issues and how he followed
> those and Seb choose not to. Now I read Seb plays along and does some
> apologizing. However, in my personal view, all this is just for the
> show. I do not believe a second that Seb means what he is saying. He did
> what he thought OK on the track. And he would do it again, if
> opportunity occurs.
> Now, thinking back on 2012 season, I cannot help myself but thinking
> *"why the hell not?"*.

Yes, Webber also did similar things to Vettel in the past, and Vettel
did similar things to Webber in the past. The only difference this time
is why are they starting so early in the season? Other times it was when
championships were at stake around the end of the season.

It's interesting that the same scenario was playing out right behind
them within the Mercedes team, and the drivers played nice (well,
grudgingly). Rosberg stayed behind Hamilton, but did make Hamilton's
life difficult during the race, deliberately. And then even told the
team over the radio, "You better remember this!"

Yousuf Khan

[Bigbird]

The grudge goes back way beyond Brazil last year I believe. However you
claim he ignored team orders in Brazil (and use that to justify his
actions regardless that you claim otherwise); can you elaborate. I
don't recall the event during the race.

[Zeppo Marx]

On 26.03.13 18:00, Bigbird wrote:
>
> The grudge goes back way beyond Brazil last year I believe. However you
> claim he ignored team orders in Brazil (and use that to justify his
> actions regardless that you claim otherwise); can you elaborate. I
> don't recall the event during the race.
>

Well, Webbo was told by the team not to race Seb and he did (on the
start, on the restart after the safety car. etc.). Although I don't
remember any radio orders to Webbo during the race, (not only) Horner
insisted before the race that Webbo should and will support Seb in his
WDC efforts. Webbo refused this flat out and was very vocal about that
in some interviews. He drove accordingly in the race.

[jm...@sapo.pt]

Em terça-feira, 26 de março de 2013 16h19min11s UTC, Bobster escreveu:
> On Mar 26, 5:49 pm, j...@sapo.pt wrote: > First of all Vettel is not Senna. Senna never apolopysed for anything, even when he screwed up big time. Senna was actually happy to play the team orders game. At Japan in 1991, with the championship still not settled, Berger was expected to give up his race for Senna. Once Mansell was out of the race the team decided that Senna should give the win to Berger as a gesture of gratitude for having been a team player. Senna did - though he made a bit of a show of it. But I'm not sure what your point is here. Is Vettel better or worse than Senna for apologising? > > Also, I understood Vettel's sorry words as complete hipocrisy. I don't believe he regrets anything. He's just trying to soften things a bit. > > Also, a word for the ones who still find space to trash Webber: Webber may not be as good as Vettel, but he deserves as much respect as anyone else. Vettel may be one of the top drivers of the moment (and maybe of all times), but he's not above basic ethics. He has acted like a backstabber, and I see no room for any excuses. > > He may disagree with team orders, but if he did, he should have told Horner before the race: "I don't agree with team orders. I'm attacking Webber if I find myself in position to do so, and I expect him to do the same". Well, it occurs to me that it would be easy to sit in the motor home and agree to do the decent thing for the team blah blah and then find that when push comes to shove and there's a race win at stake that it's hard to resist the temptation. Which is basically what happened with Reutemann in 1981. He'd agreed that Jones should have priority, but when he had a race win dangling in front of him he decided that he was going to take it. > > But he didn't do that. He agreed with team orders, and he would probably be complaining if the oposite had happened. > > I also don't remember any occasion where Webber has disrespected team orders. I sincerely doubt that he could keep his place in the team, if he ever did that. In 2011 the RBRs were running 2-3 at Silverstone after the final pit stops - Vettel ahead of Webber. Horner told Webber not to attempt to pass Seb. What did Webber do? He tried to take 2nd from Seb. He didn't take the place - but that's not the point, his intent was clearly to disregard the team orders and try to take position and points from his team mate.

It's the first time I read someone telling that Senna was happy for playing team orders... In a way you're right, because most of the times he was the one who took the benefict from team orders. You speak about Japan 2001, but what was the thing with team orders then? Berger was told to speed up while Senna was holding Mansell. After Mansell's crash Senna took the lead, and then decided to give the victory to Berger... Don't see much of team orders here... A situation I remember well is Imola 1989, where team orders were issued, everybody agreed, and Senna broke the agreement... Didn't seem happy to follow team orders then...
When I say Vettel is not Senna, I mean I don't see the point in trying to compare situations. What Senna did stays with Senna, what Vettel does stays with Vettel.
Also, I don't see why sitting in the cockpit would prevent one from keeping up with yhis word on a team agreement. I could agree the attempt to pass Webber as soon as he pit out could be caused by adrenaline, but afterwards he had a lot of "multi 21"s from the team and a all lap to come to himself... And he probably came to himself. The problem maybe that that backstabbing attitude is "himself"... Unfortunately, there are people like that throughout the World... Maybe Vettel is one of them...
Like I said, I don't remember Webber ever disrespecting team orders or even coming close to it. Also, if it happened, I find it strange Vettel (the guy who even complainted about DRS in an ocasion he was overtook) could forget such a thing.

[Bobster]

On Mar 27, 10:51 am, j...@sapo.pt wrote:
<snip>

> It's the first time I read someone telling that Senna was happy for playing team orders... In a way you're right, because most of the times he was the one who took the benefict from team orders.

I recall a quote by Berger to the effect that any team who had a
driver of Senna's class would be stupid to not prioritise him in every
way they could because he was clearly going to be their best chance of
winning.

> You speak about Japan 2001, but what was the thing with team orders then?

*1991* there was no regulation pertaining to team orders then. Teams
could and did issue them.

At Suzuka in 1991 Senna didn't need the win once Mansell was out and
the team told him to gift Berger the win as Berger had helped Senna at
other points in the season.

<snip>

> Also, I don't see why sitting in the cockpit would prevent one from keeping up with yhis word on a team agreement.

Well I've never had a grand prix victory there for the taking, but I
think that often sports presents people with a large amount of
temptation. So it might be OK when you're talking about team orders in
principal away from the track, but when you're in the car, pumped up
and bloody hell you can get a win here then I think that team orders
and your team mate's record might become less of a concern for you.

The other sport I follow is cricket, and you see it there. Everybody
will say, away from the game, that, yes, you should walk if you know
you're out. But you're in the 90s and the century is looming on the
horizon and you get a faint edge... suddenly doing the decent and
sporting thing is a lot harder.

> I could agree the attempt to pass Webber as soon as he pit out could be caused by adrenaline, but afterwards he had a lot of "multi 21"s from the team and a all lap to come to himself... And he probably came to himself. The problem maybe that that backstabbing attitude is "himself"... Unfortunately, there are people like that throughout the World... Maybe Vettel is one of them...

Well I shy away from words like "backstabbing", but certainly he's
ruthless and competitive and if you think he's the only one in the
current F1 field then think again.

> Like I said, I don't remember Webber ever disrespecting team orders or even coming close to it.

I've given you the example, and elsewhere on RASF1 I've posted part of
the press conference which has Webber saying quite bluntly that he got
multiple calls from the team and ignored them.

> Also, if it happened, I find it strange Vettel (the guy who even complainted about DRS in an ocasion he was overtook) could forget such a thing.

Who said he forgot it? I'd bet it was very much a factor. He knew what
Webber would do if he got the call because Webber had already shown
what he would do, then told the media in the press conference that he
was not OK with team orders especially if there was a chance of a
win.

I'm not asking you or anybody else to approve of what Vettel did. I AM
pointing out that Webber is just as ruthless or backstabbing or
duplicitous or whatever other words you care to use and that he is not
well placed to complain.

[Johnny B. Good]

Quarta-feira, 27 de Março de 2013 12:01:15 UTC, Bobster escreveu:
> On Mar 27, 10:51 am, j...@sapo.pt wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > It's the first time I read someone telling that Senna was happy for playing team orders... In a way you're right, because most of the times he was the one who took the benefict from team orders.
>
>
>
> I recall a quote by Berger to the effect that any team who had a
>
> driver of Senna's class would be stupid to not prioritise him in every
>
> way they could because he was clearly going to be their best chance of
>
> winning.
>

I don't remember Berger ever saying such a thing, but if he did... well, no doubt he was the best team-mate to Senna.

> > You speak about Japan 2001, but what was the thing with team orders then?
>
>
>
> *1991* there was no regulation pertaining to team orders then. Teams
>
> could and did issue them.
>

1991, sorry for the mistake... There were no regulations regarding team orders then, and there are no real regulations NOW... Let's not be naive... Teams give as much orders as they want... But getting to the point, I continue to fail in seeing why is Japan 1991 being brought to this discussion Webber-Vettel... Therefore my question.

> At Suzuka in 1991 Senna didn't need the win once Mansell was out and
>
> the team told him to gift Berger the win as Berger had helped Senna at
>
> other points in the season.
>
>
>
> <snip>
>
> > Also, I don't see why sitting in the cockpit would prevent one from keeping up with yhis word on a team agreement.
>
>
>
> Well I've never had a grand prix victory there for the taking, but I
>
> think that often sports presents people with a large amount of
>
> temptation. So it might be OK when you're talking about team orders in
>
> principal away from the track, but when you're in the car, pumped up
>
> and bloody hell you can get a win here then I think that team orders
>
> and your team mate's record might become less of a concern for you.
>
>
>
> The other sport I follow is cricket, and you see it there. Everybody
>
> will say, away from the game, that, yes, you should walk if you know
>
> you're out. But you're in the 90s and the century is looming on the
>
> horizon and you get a faint edge... suddenly doing the decent and
>
> sporting thing is a lot harder.
>
>

Like I said, I understand such a decision being taken with a rush of adrenaline; I don't understand it after Vettel being called to reason several times.

>
> > I could agree the attempt to pass Webber as soon as he pit out could be caused by adrenaline, but afterwards he had a lot of "multi 21"s from the team and a all lap to come to himself... And he probably came to himself. The problem maybe that that backstabbing attitude is "himself"... Unfortunately, there are people like that throughout the World... Maybe Vettel is one of them...
>
>
>
> Well I shy away from words like "backstabbing", but certainly he's
>
> ruthless and competitive and if you think he's the only one in the
>
> current F1 field then think again.
>

Being competitive has nothing to do with being a backstabber, IMHO. Again, I understand how being competitive could lead to a momentary decision of attacking Webber right when he was leaving the pits. Keep on doing it, has nothing to do with being competitive. It has more to do with being a backstabber and feeling untouchable in team.

>
> > Like I said, I don't remember Webber ever disrespecting team orders or even coming close to it.
>
>
>
> I've given you the example, and elsewhere on RASF1 I've posted part of
>
> the press conference which has Webber saying quite bluntly that he got
>
> multiple calls from the team and ignored them.
>
>
>
> > Also, if it happened, I find it strange Vettel (the guy who even complainted about DRS in an ocasion he was overtook) could forget such a thing.
>
>
>
> Who said he forgot it? I'd bet it was very much a factor. He knew what
>
> Webber would do if he got the call because Webber had already shown
>
> what he would do, then told the media in the press conference that he
>
> was not OK with team orders especially if there was a chance of a
>
> win.
>
>
>
> I'm not asking you or anybody else to approve of what Vettel did. I AM
>
> pointing out that Webber is just as ruthless or backstabbing or
>
> duplicitous or whatever other words you care to use and that he is not
>
> well placed to complain.

Again, it fails me to understand why then this kind of defence to Vettel. If Webber really pulled a move like the one you are saying he did, whouldn't it be easier to say: "No one keeps up with team orders in RBR. Remember UK. Vettel shouldn't trust Webber". Why all the apologyes, the funeral face in the podium, and all the efford trying to prove the move was just a product of a competitive spirit? Doesn't make sense...
Anyway, I would like to end this by saying I'm sorry for answering to your post. I assumed you posted stuff so it could be discussed. I never assumed it could be understood as a demand for any kind of approval of any sort.

[Bobster]

On Mar 27, 10:04 pm, "Johnny B. Good" <j...@sapo.pt> wrote:
> Quarta-feira, 27 de Março de 2013 12:01:15 UTC, Bobster escreveu:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Mar 27, 10:51 am, j...@sapo.pt wrote:
>
> > <snip>
>
> > > It's the first time I read someone telling that Senna was happy for playing team orders... In a way you're right, because most of the times he was the one who took the benefict from team orders.
>
> > I recall a quote by Berger to the effect that any team who had a
>
> > driver of Senna's class would be stupid to not prioritise him in every
>
> > way they could because he was clearly going to be their best chance of
>
> > winning.
>
> I don't remember Berger ever saying such a thing, but if he did... well, no doubt he was the best team-mate to Senna.
>
> > > You speak about Japan 2001, but what was the thing with team orders then?
>
> > *1991* there was no regulation pertaining to team orders then. Teams
>
> > could and did issue them.
>
> 1991, sorry for the mistake... There were no regulations regarding team orders then, and there are no real regulations NOW... Let's not be naive... Teams give as much orders as they want... But getting to the point, I continue to fail in seeing why is Japan 1991 being brought to this discussion Webber-Vettel... Therefore my question.

Your question, as far as I can see, was "what was the thing with team
orders then?" We've discussed that.

Which is more than was done for the question that I asked: Whether you
thought Vettel was doing better or worse than Senna by apologising.
<snip>

> Like I said, I understand such a decision being taken with a rush of adrenaline; I don't understand it after Vettel being called to reason several times.

There's often a gap between what we know, in theory, to be the thing
to do, and what we actually do. People know they shouldn't have
another drink, but they do. We've all been told we shouldn't speed -
but some of us still do. Sport, and especially top level sport, puts
temptation in one's path.

>
>
>
> > > I could agree the attempt to pass Webber as soon as he pit out could be caused by adrenaline, but afterwards he had a lot of "multi 21"s from the team and a all lap to come to himself... And he probably came to himself. The problem maybe that that backstabbing attitude is "himself"... Unfortunately, there are people like that throughout the World... Maybe Vettel is one of them...
>
> > Well I shy away from words like "backstabbing", but certainly he's
>
> > ruthless and competitive and if you think he's the only one in the
>
> > current F1 field then think again.
>
> Being competitive has nothing to do with being a backstabber, IMHO.

As I said, I'd shy away from that word - or apply it a little less
selectively. I'd like to think that one can be competitive and
honourable, and I think that one can.

> Again, I understand how being competitive could lead to a momentary decision of attacking Webber right when he was leaving the pits. Keep on doing it, has nothing to do with being competitive. It has more to do with being a backstabber and feeling untouchable in team.
>

Well, it seems your mind is made up.

>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> > > Like I said, I don't remember Webber ever disrespecting team orders or even coming close to it.
>
> > I've given you the example, and elsewhere on RASF1 I've posted part of
>
> > the press conference which has Webber saying quite bluntly that he got
>
> > multiple calls from the team and ignored them.
>
> > > Also, if it happened, I find it strange Vettel (the guy who even complainted about DRS in an ocasion he was overtook) could forget such a thing.
>
> > Who said he forgot it? I'd bet it was very much a factor. He knew what
>
> > Webber would do if he got the call because Webber had already shown
>
> > what he would do, then told the media in the press conference that he
>
> > was not OK with team orders especially if there was a chance of a
>
> > win.
>
> > I'm not asking you or anybody else to approve of what Vettel did. I AM
>
> > pointing out that Webber is just as ruthless or backstabbing or
>
> > duplicitous or whatever other words you care to use and that he is not
>
> > well placed to complain.
>
> Again, it fails me to understand why then this kind of defence to Vettel. If Webber really pulled a move like the one you are saying he did, whouldn't it be easier to say: "No one keeps up with team orders in RBR. Remember UK. Vettel shouldn't trust Webber". Why all the apologyes, the funeral face in the podium, and all the efford trying to prove the move was just a product of a competitive spirit? Doesn't make sense...

Maybe it's regret. And regret is always retrospective. One does
something and then one thinks that one shouldn't have done it. But
here is where I think you need to clarify your thinking. Is Vettel
better or worse than Senna for showing some contrition?

Come to think of it, is he better or worse than another driver who,
more recently, told the press at the post race conference that he is
not OK with team orders and that he chose to ignore four or five calls
from the team?

> Anyway, I would like to end this by saying I'm sorry for answering to your post. I assumed you posted stuff so it could be discussed. I never assumed it could be understood as a demand for any kind of approval of any sort.

I didn't ask for approval. You might construe my posts as such, but
then you've repeatedly ignored an example that I've given you of
Webber disregarding team orders. It takes two to have a discussion.

[geoff]

"Bobster" <mega...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0350b33d-b9ab-4a29...@p5g2000yqj.googlegroups.com...

> Maybe it's regret. And regret is always retrospective. One does
> something and then one thinks that one shouldn't have done it.

Not always retro - "I regret what I am about to do to you....".

geoff

[Bobster]

On Mar 28, 10:17 am, "geoff" <ge...@nospampaf.co.nz> wrote:
> "Bobster" <megap...@gmail.com> wrote in message

I never believed that. It's right up there with "this is going to hurt
me more than it hurts you." Ever tried asking them if they want to
swap places?

[jm...@sapo.pt]

Em quinta-feira, 28 de março de 2013 03h45min29s UTC, Bobster escreveu:
> On Mar 27, 10:04 pm, "Johnny B. Good" <j...@sapo.pt> wrote: > Quarta-feira, 27 de Março de 2013 12:01:15 UTC, Bobster escreveu: > > > > > > > > > > > On Mar 27, 10:51 am, j...@sapo.pt wrote: > > > <snip> > > > > It's the first time I read someone telling that Senna was happy for playing team orders... In a way you're right, because most of the times he was the one who took the benefict from team orders. > > > I recall a quote by Berger to the effect that any team who had a > > > driver of Senna's class would be stupid to not prioritise him in every > > > way they could because he was clearly going to be their best chance of > > > winning. > > I don't remember Berger ever saying such a thing, but if he did... well, no doubt he was the best team-mate to Senna. > > > > You speak about Japan 2001, but what was the thing with team orders then? > > > *1991* there was no regulation pertaining to team orders then. Teams > > > could and did issue them. > > 1991, sorry for the mistake... There were no regulations regarding team orders then, and there are no real regulations NOW... Let's not be naive... Teams give as much orders as they want... But getting to the point, I continue to fail in seeing why is Japan 1991 being brought to this discussion Webber-Vettel... Therefore my question. Your question, as far as I can see, was "what was the thing with team orders then?" We've discussed that. Which is more than was done for the question that I asked: Whether you thought Vettel was doing better or worse than Senna by apologising.

I'm just answering to this bit... There must be some kind of misunderstanding. Someone (you? someone else?) brought Senna to this discussion, and in my opinion, there is no point in having the memory of Senna's actions here. Imola 1989, Japan 1991, or other GPs. That's why I asked "what was the thing with team orders then?". I may see a resemblance between Imola 1989 and this Webber-Vettel affair, but Japan 1991?... So what if there were team orders to let Berger win in Japan 1991?

About the question you so desperately want my answer, which one is worst, Senna or Vettel (assuming you are refering to Imola 1989...)
Well, that's not really important, because like I said Senna is Senna, and Vettel is Vettel. Senna's attitude was bad because he backstabbed his team-mate, and even got worst because he didn't apologyse. Vettel's attitude was bad and got even worst, because I didn't feel his apologies were sincere.
So, choosing between an arrogant backstabber and a hipocritical backstabber... I would give them a tie!

[Bobster]

On Mar 28, 5:12 pm, j...@sapo.pt wrote:
<snip>

> I'm just answering to this bit... There must be some kind of misunderstanding. Someone (you? someone else?) brought Senna to this discussion, and in my opinion, there is no point in having the memory of Senna's actions here.

I think you've lost track of who said what. The software you're using
- which doesn't seem to handle quoting and indenting very well - is
probably not helping.

So:
1) Mower Man posted "Senna, of course would not have given an excuse,
nor would one have been expected from him."
2) You replied with "First of all Vettel is not Senna. Senna never
apolopysed for anything, even when he screwed up big time. Also, I

understood Vettel's sorry words as complete hipocrisy. I don't believe
he regrets anything. He's just trying to soften things a bit."

So there's Senna and his actions in the discussion.

[~misfit~]

He said "Remember this one", not demanding like you make it out to be (with
an exclaimation mark).
--
/Shaun.

"Humans will have advanced a long, long, way when religious belief has a
cozy little classification in the DSM."
David Melville (in r.a.s.f1)

[jm...@sapo.pt]

Em sexta-feira, 29 de março de 2013 04h13min40s UTC, Bobster escreveu:
> On Mar 28, 5:12 pm, j...@sapo.pt wrote: <snip> > I'm just answering to this bit... There must be some kind of misunderstanding. Someone (you? someone else?) brought Senna to this discussion, and in my opinion, there is no point in having the memory of Senna's actions here. I think you've lost track of who said what. The software you're using - which doesn't seem to handle quoting and indenting very well - is probably not helping. So: 1) Mower Man posted "Senna, of course would not have given an excuse, nor would one have been expected from him." 2) You replied with "First of all Vettel is not Senna. Senna never apolopysed for anything, even when he screwed up big time. Also, I understood Vettel's sorry words as complete hipocrisy. I don't believe he regrets anything. He's just trying to soften things a bit." So there's Senna and his actions in the discussion.

I got that.. But you were the one who spoke about Japan 1991, weren't you? Once again, what does Senna got to do with Vettel, and what does Japan 1991 to do with Malasya 2013? Makes no sense, both comparissons.

[Bobster]

On Apr 1, 10:59 am, j...@sapo.pt wrote:
> Em sexta-feira, 29 de março de 2013 04h13min40s UTC, Bobster escreveu:
>
> > On Mar 28, 5:12 pm, j...@sapo.pt wrote: <snip> > I'm just answering to this bit... There must be some kind of misunderstanding. Someone (you? someone else?) brought Senna to this discussion, and in my opinion, there is no point in having the memory of Senna's actions here. I think you've lost track of who said what. The software you're using - which doesn't seem to handle quoting and indenting very well - is probably not helping. So: 1) Mower Man posted "Senna, of course would not have given an excuse, nor would one have been expected from him." 2) You replied with "First of all Vettel is not Senna. Senna never apolopysed for anything, even when he screwed up big time. Also, I understood Vettel's sorry words as complete hipocrisy. I don't believe he regrets anything. He's just trying to soften things a bit." So there's Senna and his actions in the discussion.
>
> I got that.. But you were the one who spoke about Japan 1991, weren't you?

Yes.

> Once again, what does Senna got to do with Vettel, and what does Japan 1991 to do with Malasya 2013? Makes no sense, both comparissons.

It was a little twist the conversation took. The discussion was about
team orders, then Senna got pulled into things and I remembered him
and team orders.