Vettel or Alonso WDC? Who would you prefer?

[ric zito]

No reasons, just a straight vote.

Me : ALO
--
ric zito

[kung fu]

It does not matter who we prefer. Vettel will win the WDC.

[AC]

ric zito wrote:
> No reasons, just a straight vote.
>
> Me : ALO
>

Neither.

Gun to head? Alonso.

--
AC

[Paul Giverin]

In message <1krm9g2.iqmhbodyp5toN%names...@gmail.com>, ric zito
<names...@gmail.com> writes

>No reasons, just a straight vote.
>
>Me : ALO

Fred for me. Despite some seedy behaviour in the past, I can't help
admire him as a driver. He's a grinder and I also think he's very fair
on the track.
--
Paul Giverin

My Photos:- www.giverin.co.uk

[AC]

Paul Giverin wrote:
> In message <1krm9g2.iqmhbodyp5toN%names...@gmail.com>, ric zito
> <names...@gmail.com> writes
>> No reasons, just a straight vote.
>>
>> Me : ALO
>
> Fred for me. Despite some seedy behaviour in the past, I can't help
> admire him as a driver. He's a grinder and I also think he's very fair
> on the track.

This season is like an Alonso rebirth for me, for the reasons you give
above. In fact, quietly, I take back my previous post, and will say I
would actually *like* to see Alonso win this season.

Thing with Fred is that this season, he really looks like he is the
difference. He looks like he is really making it happen. With the other
drivers, its seem more like they will do the job if the car is there,
but if its not, then, well, its not. Vettel, IMHO, being a case in
point. The McLaren chaps less so, but in that kind of area. *If* Alonso
wins this season, then for the first time in ages it will feel like a
driver won rather than a team. He is very much earning his money this
season.

At this point, unless we see a significant shift in car performance
development, if any one else wins, it will feel like Alonso and Vettel
threw it away.

Now, I don't know if statistics, results, logic or reason bear any of
that out. Its just how it feels.

Yeah, fuck it, Im cheering Fred on. Never thought I'd say that. Feels
strangle good actually.

--
AC

[zvoni]

"ric zito" <names...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1krm9g2.iqmhbodyp5toN%names...@gmail.com...

Between two of them?! Alonso, any time!

[News]

Fred carried the team this far, in the process even invigorating Massa.

That's leadership.

[RzR]

On 7.10.2012. 22:37, ric zito wrote:
> No reasons, just a straight vote.
>
> Me : ALO
>

anyone but alonso or ferrari, so...

[AC]

Look, I'm only going so far with the Alonso love. Don't push it!!!!

--
AC

[News]

-;)

[Sir Tim]

On 10/7/2012 1:37 PM, ric zito wrote:
> No reasons, just a straight vote.
>
> Me : ALO
>

Vettel, but only because he's coming from behind.
I think Fred really deserves it.

--
Henry Birkin, Bt.

[Ar]

On 07/10/12 21:37, ric zito wrote:
> No reasons, just a straight vote.
>
> Me : ALO

Fernando, and not just because I picked him for this years driver pool.
Fernando's been the most consistent driver of the top drivers.

[RzR]

nah...just lucky as hell...did he really think he didnt have to do any
racing in the last 6-7 races and still be able to win it? he should have
learned from 2010. that it doesnt work

[Bobster]

There are THREE drivers that I would not begrudge the 2012 WDC:
Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel. All have driven consistently well. Hamilton
has been let down badly by his team. Alonso has done a great job in a
car that is not the best. Vettel has shown that he's a scrapper and a
racer, not just just some whiz kid who is hard to beat when he has a
fast car underneath him.

Any of those would suit me, and I really have no preferences.

[Ar]

On 08/10/12 06:34, RzR wrote:
>> Fernando, and not just because I picked him for this years driver pool.
>> Fernando's been the most consistent driver of the top drivers.
>
> nah...just lucky as hell...did he really think he didnt have to do any
> racing in the last 6-7 races and still be able to win it? he should have
> learned from 2010. that it doesnt work

It may be a cliché, but to finish first, first you have to finish.

And Fernando has been consistent in finishing in the points, where
rivals have not. Short of cheating, nobody cares how a championship is
won in years to come.

[Bobster]

On 8 Oct, 09:30, Ar <A...@127.0.0.1> wrote:
<snip>

> And Fernando has been consistent in finishing in the points, where
> rivals have not. Short of cheating, nobody cares how a championship is
> won in years to come.

Well it bugs me a bit when the winningest driver of the year is not
WDC. Mike Hawthorn was WDC with one win in a season in which Moss won
five times. Now sure, Hawthorn did a lot more finishing than Moss did,
and by the rules that prevailed at the time he was champion, but
still... Lauda's WDC by half a point and by 5 wins to 7 over Alain
Prost also grates, though not as badly.

Are these the only two cases? I think not, but I can't quote book,
chapter and verse. OK... .1982, but that was an odd (and sad) season
in which nobody won more than two races anyway.

[Ar]

On 08/10/12 08:48, Bobster wrote:
>
> Well it bugs me a bit when the winningest driver of the year is not
> WDC. Mike Hawthorn was WDC with one win in a season in which Moss won
> five times. Now sure, Hawthorn did a lot more finishing than Moss did,
> and by the rules that prevailed at the time he was champion, but
> still... Lauda's WDC by half a point and by 5 wins to 7 over Alain
> Prost also grates, though not as badly.

Those are the FIA rules, and every driver goes by them. Complain to the
FIA that wins should count more than runner up places. Pretty sure it's
been argued before.

[larkim]

^^^^^ What he said

[ric zito]

Well, to be fair to Fred, he's been the winningest driver for most of
this season. Against all odds, he was the first driver to two wins, and
the first driver to three. Probably not the first to four though..:-(
--
ric zito

[Bobster]

There's a balance that has to be struck, and consistency should count.
But 1958 was ridiculous. Also striking for something you can't imagine
happening today - Moss testifying FOR Hawthorn after Hawthorn was DQed
at (IIRC) Portugal. Hawthorn was reinstated and given his second place
back. If Moss had kept quiet he would have been WDC. But things were
different back then. Peter Collins was regarded as a gentleman because
he obeyed team orders (and suffered as a result) with no bitterness.
Today he'd be regarded as a wimp.

The system has changed over the years, with FIA sometimes trying to
balance wins against consistency. In some seasons only the best so
many results counted, which was supposed to encouraging going for wins
at the risk of breaking the car. In 1991 they added an extra point for
a win which offered a bigger margin for a win over a second, but also
ruled that every result would count.

There's no perfect system, and we have to live with the anomalies I
guess. But 1958...

[AC]

I have to say, I think he has been a little more than merely consistent.
He seems to have added to the package. Which is why I back him now.

Shouldn't forget though that Ferrari have provided a very reliable car.
But now Alonso has had his share of bad luck in two races, Ferrari need
to step up and help him out, other wise it is possible that RBR will
march off. I say only possible since I don't know if what we are
currently seeing is the track suiting RBR, if the remaining tracks will
still suit, and/or they have now sorted out the car.

--
AC

[Bobster]

On 8 Oct, 09:59, namesurn...@gmail.com (ric zito) wrote:
<snip>

> Well, to be fair to Fred, he's been the winningest driver for most of
> this season. Against all odds, he was the first driver to two wins, and
> the first driver to three. Probably not the first to four though..:-(

Oh, nothing against Fred. I wasn't having a go at him but rather at
the assertion about how nobody cares in years to come. I mean I don't
lie awake at night thinking about what a bummer it was for Moss, but I
do think (during waking hours, when I have nothing better to do) that
sometimes the way the championship was settled does matter. I would
have been very unhappy if Villeneuve had to retire at Jerez in 1997
and the championship went to Schumacher - despite thinking that over
the season Schumacher had been the better driver.

[AC]

I know what you mean, it does feel counter intuitive. But I kinda like
it as a sort of rare aberration. I think it is right as a mathematical
possibility. Dunno how to explain it well, but it means that if you take
the season as one long race, the right guy wins.

Surely, as well, it shows a harder and closer season. So in some ways it
could be considered a superior WDC.

--
AC

[AC]

Which boils down to the medal idea, which I don't like the idea of at all.

--
AC

[Bobster]

On 8 Oct, 10:41, AC <x...@xxx.xxx> wrote:
> Bobster wrote:
<snip>

> I know what you mean, it does feel counter intuitive. But I kinda like
> it as a sort of rare aberration. I think it is right as a mathematical
> possibility. Dunno how to explain it well, but it means that if you take
> the season as one long race, the right guy wins.

Maybe. As I said elsewhere, consistency should count for something.

>
> Surely, as well, it shows a harder and closer season. So in some ways it
> could be considered a superior WDC.

Moss (who had 4 wins, not 5, my bad) mostly either won or retired. His
team mate, Tony Brooks, won 3 as well. So I guess it was a tortoise
(Ferrari) and hare (Vanwall) season. Ferrari were consistent, Vanwall
fast but also fragile.

[Bobster]

On 8 Oct, 10:37, Bobster <megap...@gmail.com> wrote:
> I would
> have been very unhappy if Villeneuve had to retire at Jerez in 1997
> and the championship went to Schumacher - despite thinking that over
> the season Schumacher had been the better driver.

Though, of course, Ar did mention cheating, so I guess that if 1997
had come to that particular conclusion then his assertion dealt with
that.

[zvoni]

"Bobster" <mega...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a4436274-8088-4c3f...@r10g2000vby.googlegroups.com...

Just to add, today's system is in that respect worse than the one from 1991.
Second place then was 60% of the victory and today it is more than 70% which
actually stimulates collectors.

[Ar]

On 08/10/12 09:36, AC wrote:
>> Fernando, and not just because I picked him for this years driver pool.
>> Fernando's been the most consistent driver of the top drivers.
>
> I have to say, I think he has been a little more than merely consistent.
> He seems to have added to the package. Which is why I back him now.

I suspect that without mostly Fernando's input, Ferrari would not have
managed to turn around their 2012 car which was a real pig of a car at
the start of the season.

[Roman Figaj]

ric zito <names...@gmail.com> wrote:

> No reasons, just a straight vote.
>
> Me : ALO

Fernando, by a hair.

(Of this season's race winners, I would have preferred Button. By a
mile.)

Cheers
Roman
--
lay down all thoughts surrender to the void

[jtees4]

On Sun, 7 Oct 2012 22:37:26 +0200, names...@gmail.com (ric zito)

wrote:

>No reasons, just a straight vote.
>
>Me : ALO

Alonso
********************

http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=789610

[RzR]

is this the same fernadno who didnt have a clue why he pitted so early
in singapore 2008? now all of the sudden he is again the driver, the
designer, the strategist and the mechanic

you people make me puke...

[News]

On 10/8/2012 9:14 AM, jtees4 wrote:
> On Sun, 7 Oct 2012 22:37:26 +0200, names...@gmail.com (ric zito)
> wrote:
>
>> No reasons, just a straight vote.
>>
>> Me : ALO
>
> Alonso
> ********************

Look at it from BernieCo Enterprises' perspective. Does he want a
three-peat? No way.

[AC]

Sir Tim wrote:
> On 10/7/2012 1:37 PM, ric zito wrote:
>> No reasons, just a straight vote.
>>
>> Me : ALO
>>
> Vettel, but only because he's coming from behind.
> I think Fred really deserves it.
>

Oooooooo missus!!!!

--
AC

[AC]

Please, what ever you do, don't choke on it. That would be a terrible
thing.

--
AC

[News]

Aspirational, though.

[Tiny waterhouse]

On Sunday, October 7, 2012 9:37:30 PM UTC+1, ric zito wrote:
> No reasons, just a straight vote.
>
>
>
> Me : ALO
>

> --
>
> ric zito

FRED. If Vettle was driving FREDS car and Fred Vettles would Vettle be in front now?

[Ian Dalziel]

If is F1 backwards.

--

Ian D

[John Briggs]

Onef?
--
John Briggs

[yourspamhere@nowhere.com Oliver Crawford]

AC wrote:
> Paul Giverin wrote:
>> In message <1krm9g2.iqmhbodyp5toN%names...@gmail.com>, ric zito
>> <names...@gmail.com> writes

>>> No reasons, just a straight vote.
>>>
>>> Me : ALO
>>

>> Fred for me. Despite some seedy behaviour in the past, I can't help
>> admire him as a driver. He's a grinder and I also think he's very
>> fair on the track.
>
> This season is like an Alonso rebirth for me, for the reasons you give
> above. In fact, quietly, I take back my previous post, and will say I
> would actually *like* to see Alonso win this season.
>
> Thing with Fred is that this season, he really looks like he is the
> difference. He looks like he is really making it happen. With the
> other drivers, its seem more like they will do the job if the car is
> there, but if its not, then, well, its not. Vettel, IMHO, being a
> case in point.

Not convinced about that, his previous titles were generally put down to the
car but he hasn't had a dominant car this year yet he's only 4 points off
the lead and could well win the WDC this again.

I would like to see Fred getting it though, I think Ferrari's performance is
down to him turning a pig's ear into a silk purse.
.

[Bobster]

I'll put in a word for Vettel here. He hasn't had the car advantage
that he's had in previous seasons, often not had the best car in
quallies or race, but has often put in good drives in a similar way to
Fred to pick up useful points and keep himself in contention.

[CatharticF1]

names...@gmail.com (ric zito) wrote in news:1krm9g2.iqmhbodyp5toN%
names...@gmail.com:

> No reasons, just a straight vote.
>
> Me : ALO

Alonso is the best out there imo.
It's time he got some reward for thast, but I don't think it's within his
personal advantages to offset the pace difference as it stands.

--
CatharticF1

I can't resist no crossing signs

[RzR]

On 9.10.2012. 8:38, CatharticF1 wrote:
> names...@gmail.com (ric zito) wrote in news:1krm9g2.iqmhbodyp5toN%
> names...@gmail.com:
>
>> No reasons, just a straight vote.
>>
>> Me : ALO
>
> Alonso is the best out there imo.
> It's time he got some reward for thast, but I don't think it's within his
> personal advantages to offset the pace difference as it stands.
>

why is he the best? because he had some crazy luck in the 1st part of
the season? i mean in one case, the whole session in quali was stopped,
and the track was dried off waaaaay beyond what it needed to be for safe
racing, just so alonso can make up time...the next race had q3 run in
far worse conditions, in which alonso would not make the top 10 in the
race before.

or is he the best because he took michael schumacher off the throne? i
hear a lot of that nonsense. i mean, mclaren had more wins that year,
and kimi had just as many wins as alonso. he was lucky that year too.
if fisi was allowed to race him, no way he beats kimi who had to beat
montoya.
same for 2006 ferrari breaking down in the end.

now where the hell is the proof that he is the best out there? not even
close...

[Bobster]

On 9 Oct, 10:01, RzR <2r4z...@gmail.com> wrote:

> why is he the best? because he had some crazy luck in the 1st part of
> the season? i mean in one case, the whole session in quali was stopped,
> and the track was dried off waaaaay beyond what it needed to be for safe
> racing, just so alonso can make up time...the next race had q3 run in
> far worse conditions, in which alonso would not make the top 10 in the
> race before.
>
> or is he the best because he took michael schumacher off the throne? i
> hear a lot of that nonsense. i mean, mclaren had more wins that year,
> and kimi had just as many wins as alonso. he was lucky that year too.
> if fisi was allowed to race him, no way he beats kimi who had to beat
> montoya.
> same for 2006 ferrari breaking down in the end.
>
> now where the hell is the proof that he is the best out there? not even
> close...

Fred reminds me of the Australian cricket team when they ruled the
heap from the mid 90s to the early 00s. They were not, despite what
you read, superhuman, but what they had was intensity and consistency.
They ALWAYS had their foot on the pedal. You could go into a match
with Australia and stay on level pegging with them for whole sessions
of play, but then you'd put a catch down, or lose a wicket and
suddenly the door was open just a crack and that was all Australia
needed and next thing you know they'd kicked the door wide open and
were all over you like a rash. You'd dropped your intensity levels for
a moment, but Australia didn't and so they prevailed even when you did
take the fight to them.

And it's the same with Fred this year. He's so on it all the time and
takes full advantage of everything that comes his way. Even when he
hasn't had the car to win he's sustained his performance levels so
that he can pick up as many points as possible. He's put in a
consistently high effort and has been very impressive.

[RzR]

well ok, he can prove me wrong by beating red bull and mclaren on track,
without them breaking down. that will score him the champioship.
if massa was able to beat mclarens the last race, as bad and horrible as
he is, alonso should have no problem winning races in the remaining schedule

[Bigbird]

CatharticF1 wrote:

> names...@gmail.com (ric zito) wrote in news:1krm9g2.iqmhbodyp5toN%
> names...@gmail.com:
>
> > No reasons, just a straight vote.
> >
> > Me : ALO
>
> Alonso is the best out there imo.
> It's time he got some reward for thast, but I don't think it's within
> his personal advantages to offset the pace difference as it stands.

He is up against Vettel and I don't think he has any personal
advatnages over Vettel where pace or tyre management are concerned. He
may or may not have a little better racecraft but only in certain
circumstances.

I am struggling to recall what Vettel has done wrong this season.

[Noj]

Bigbird wrote ...

>
> CatharticF1 wrote:
>
> > names...@gmail.com (ric zito) wrote in news:1krm9g2.iqmhbodyp5toN%
> > names...@gmail.com:
> >
> > > No reasons, just a straight vote.
> > >
> > > Me : ALO
> >
> > Alonso is the best out there imo.
> > It's time he got some reward for thast, but I don't think it's within
> > his personal advantages to offset the pace difference as it stands.
>
> He is up against Vettel and I don't think he has any personal
> advatnages over Vettel where pace or tyre management are concerned. He
> may or may not have a little better racecraft but only in certain
> circumstances.

Does race craft matter any more? With DRS, the faster cars are seldom
stuck behind a slower or even slightly slower car, unless the DRS Zone
is hobbled, like it was on Sunday.

> I am struggling to recall what Vettel has done wrong this season.

Winning for the wrong team? Do Red Bull have the least number of fans
in F1?

[Bigbird]

Noj wrote:

> Bigbird wrote ...
>
> >
> > CatharticF1 wrote:
> >
> > > names...@gmail.com (ric zito) wrote in
> > > news:1krm9g2.iqmhbodyp5toN% names...@gmail.com:
> > >
> > > > No reasons, just a straight vote.
> > > >
> > > > Me : ALO
> > >
> > > Alonso is the best out there imo.
> > > It's time he got some reward for thast, but I don't think it's
> > > within his personal advantages to offset the pace difference as
> > > it stands.
> >
> > He is up against Vettel and I don't think he has any personal
> > advatnages over Vettel where pace or tyre management are concerned.
> > He may or may not have a little better racecraft but only in certain
> > circumstances.
>
>
> Does race craft matter any more? With DRS, the faster cars are
> seldom stuck behind a slower or even slightly slower car, unless the
> DRS Zone is hobbled, like it was on Sunday.
>

Just occasionally. Unfortunately, mostly in keeping other cars behind.
On Sunday Heikki ruined a lot of drivers chances of points by giving
the ten ahead a 10 second cushion. Getting past such cars, especially
after an early stop is important.

>
> > I am struggling to recall what Vettel has done wrong this season.
>
> Winning for the wrong team? Do Red Bull have the least number of
> fans in F1?

Probably a younger fanbase than I would be familiar with.

[Bobster]

On 9 Oct, 10:24, RzR <2r4z...@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>

> well ok, he can prove me wrong by beating red bull and mclaren on track,
> without them breaking down.

He has! Malaysia for a start. In Spain he finished 2nd, Vettel was 6th
and the McLarens came in 8th and 9th. The last few races have seen a
swing towards McLaren and RBR in performance, but this season nobody's
had a clear car advantage for a prolonged period of time, and of the
front-runners Alonso has been worst off in that regard. What he has
had is a RELIABLE car, and his own performance, as we've discussed,
has been very consistent. McLaren have been disorganised and dropped
the ball themselves on occasion - you can hardly blame Alonso for
their stuff ups.

> that will score him the champioship.
> if massa was able to beat mclarens the last race, as bad and horrible as
> he is, alonso should have no problem winning races in the remaining schedule

Well, as a long term F1 fan (I'm sure that's what you are) then you
should know that this is the time of year when drivers unsure of their
situation next year tend to suddenly extract digit and put in some
more creditable performances. But it's one race, and mostly Massa has
been nowhere near Alonso's pace this year. I'd still expect Fred to
run ahead of him though, and you may be right that Ferrari have some
race pace though
1) This year no car has dominated on every type of track, they've
mostly gone fast on one track, not so fast on another
2) Ferrari tend to have better race pace than qually pace. Which may
be a deliberate trade off by them.

[Yuhler G]

On article <1krm9g2.iqmhbodyp5toN%names...@gmail.com>, ric zito wrote:

>
> No reasons, just a straight vote.
>
> Me : ALO

Seb "The Finger" Vettel.

--
Best,
Yuhler G.

Please, reply preferably to the list.
Reply-To: yuhler at gmail dot com
Due to spam I'm filtering-out GoogleGroups. Sorry. :(

[Ian Dalziel]

Enof already!

--

Ian D