My understanding is that Michelin originally declared the problem with the tyres on Saturday and said they could ship over Spanish spec ones immediately.
Under those circumstances, why not let them. Assuming they could have them at the track for friday morning, schedule in a brief (15-30 min) practice session on Sunday morning (to allow Michelin to make sure these don't suffer similarly) for all teams, and then RERUN qualifying.
I don't see any problems with this. It should benefit the Bridgestone teams, as they have the possibility of improving their position (as the Michelin tyres, having been make for the more abrasive Barcelona track, would be much harder and hence slower) whilst removing any 'qualifying tyre' scenarios, as they will be racing with what they qualified. Bridgestone teams would start qualifying with a new set of the same tyres (or be allowed to change types if they want).
Michelin to be fined for the inconvenience and if the harder tyre and losing qualifying position isn't felt to be enough of a penalty to the Michelin teams, then force them all to have 1 drive through penalty (to be taken at any point in the race).
Surely that's a better compromise and something everyone could accept, rather than the stupid 6 car race we had? Sorry if someone has already suggested similar - I'm still wading through the 2000+ posts, but I have seen one if there is.
Jim wrote: > My understanding is that Michelin originally declared the problem with > the tyres on Saturday and said they could ship over Spanish spec ones > immediately.
> Under those circumstances, why not let them. Assuming they could have > them at the track for friday morning, schedule in a brief (15-30 min) > practice session on Sunday morning (to allow Michelin to make sure > these don't suffer similarly) for all teams, and then RERUN > qualifying.
> I don't see any problems with this. It should benefit the Bridgestone > teams, as they have the possibility of improving their position (as > the Michelin tyres, having been make for the more abrasive Barcelona > track, would be much harder and hence slower) whilst removing any > 'qualifying tyre' scenarios, as they will be racing with what they > qualified. Bridgestone teams would start qualifying with a new set of > the same tyres (or be allowed to change types if they want).
> Michelin to be fined for the inconvenience and if the harder tyre and > losing qualifying position isn't felt to be enough of a penalty to the > Michelin teams, then force them all to have 1 drive through penalty > (to be taken at any point in the race).
> Surely that's a better compromise and something everyone could accept, > rather than the stupid 6 car race we had? Sorry if someone has already > suggested similar - I'm still wading through the 2000+ posts, but I > have seen one if there is.
> Jim
i think Mich. decided themselves that they did not know if those tyres would be safe
> My understanding is that Michelin originally declared the problem with > the tyres on Saturday and said they could ship over Spanish spec ones > immediately.
Yes, the newspapers are NOT clear on the above issue.
We got a set a tires being sent Friday, and apparently EVEN Michelin declared that this NEW shipment as a result of tire problems was ALSO NOT safe. (at least could not be declared safe by Michelin).
However, Michelin (as far as we know) did NOT state that the Spanish tires were not safe, and could ship them. That shipment of tires sent was NOT the Spanish spec tires (if anyone can correct this fact, .please do).
At this point, we have FIA steadfastly holding that the rules state NO tire changes.
So, was FIA eventually willing to allow a tire change?
I agree what Michelin seemed to sort screw up a bit, but life is not 100% perfect, and FIA should allowed a tire change.
Of course, with no tire change allowed, then the debate shifted to the adding of the chicane. When that fell through, they were simply out of time.
So, sure, Michelin had a miss-cue, but FIA should come up with a way to use the Spanish tires. Perhaps even asking Bridgestone to supply tires.
The issue as the end of the day is how to deal with a problem. We can all stand here and say gee, Michelin had a problem with their tires. Also, we can say that rules are rule. At this point, management (FIA) has to deal with this issue, and you can see that the way things went, we got a mess. They had a problem, and they needed a BETTER soltion then what happned.
It is not clear if Spanish tires could have been shipped in time - these folks simply ran out of time solution wise.
At least now, when they got this type of problem, the management and teams will work harder to come up with a soltion...
> Under those circumstances, why not let them. Assuming they could have > them at the track for friday morning, schedule in a brief (15-30 min) > practice session on Sunday morning (to allow Michelin to make sure > these don't suffer similarly) for all teams, and then RERUN > qualifying.
> I don't see any problems with this. It should benefit the Bridgestone > teams, as they have the possibility of improving their position (as > the Michelin tyres, having been make for the more abrasive Barcelona > track, would be much harder and hence slower) whilst removing any > 'qualifying tyre' scenarios, as they will be racing with what they > qualified. Bridgestone teams would start qualifying with a new set of > the same tyres (or be allowed to change types if they want).
> Michelin to be fined for the inconvenience and if the harder tyre and > losing qualifying position isn't felt to be enough of a penalty to the > Michelin teams, then force them all to have 1 drive through penalty > (to be taken at any point in the race).
> Surely that's a better compromise and something everyone could accept, > rather than the stupid 6 car race we had? Sorry if someone has already > suggested similar - I'm still wading through the 2000+ posts, but I > have seen one if there is.
f/fgeorge <ffgeo...@yourplace.com> wrote: >On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 13:06:37 +1000, Jim <j...@jim.com> wrote:
>>My understanding is that Michelin originally declared the problem with >>the tyres on Saturday and said they could ship over Spanish spec ones >>immediately.
>>Under those circumstances, why not let them. Assuming they could have >>them at the track for friday morning, schedule in a brief (15-30 min) >>practice session on Sunday morning (to allow Michelin to make sure >>these don't suffer similarly) for all teams, and then RERUN >>qualifying.
>>I don't see any problems with this. It should benefit the Bridgestone >>teams, as they have the possibility of improving their position (as >>the Michelin tyres, having been make for the more abrasive Barcelona >>track, would be much harder and hence slower) whilst removing any >>'qualifying tyre' scenarios, as they will be racing with what they >>qualified. Bridgestone teams would start qualifying with a new set of >>the same tyres (or be allowed to change types if they want).
>>Michelin to be fined for the inconvenience and if the harder tyre and >>losing qualifying position isn't felt to be enough of a penalty to the >>Michelin teams, then force them all to have 1 drive through penalty >>(to be taken at any point in the race).
>>Surely that's a better compromise and something everyone could accept, >>rather than the stupid 6 car race we had? Sorry if someone has already >>suggested similar - I'm still wading through the 2000+ posts, but I >>have seen one if there is.
>Because Michelin said that without testing, extensive testing at that, >they could not gauranteethe Barcelona tires would hold up for the >race. In the end the Barcelona tires were sitting at Indianopolis >airport but were not allowed to be brought to the track. >A note WAS sent to all Michelin shod Teams that a change in tire would >not be looked on favorably and the penalty would be severe enough so >as to happen in the future.
I wasn't aware that Michelin weren't at all confident of the Barcelona tyres. How much testing is extensive. If more than 14 cars for a standard practice seesion, then why even ship them to the US?
The severe penalty the teams were warned about was because the change of tyres was between qualifying and practice, so as to prevent a back door way of using qualifying tyres. That's why I proposed rerunning qualifying on the new tyres, to remove that problem.
>"Jim" <j...@jim.com> wrote in message >news:ghkhb1lq88i0jh73de09mjpi42vk0jir28@4ax.com... >> My understanding is that Michelin originally declared the problem with >> the tyres on Saturday and said they could ship over Spanish spec ones >> immediately.
>Yes, the newspapers are NOT clear on the above issue.
>We got a set a tires being sent Friday, and apparently EVEN Michelin >declared that this NEW shipment as a result of tire problems was ALSO NOT >safe. (at least could not be declared safe by Michelin).
>However, Michelin (as far as we know) did NOT state that the Spanish tires >were not safe, and could ship them. That shipment of tires sent was NOT the >Spanish spec tires (if anyone can correct this fact, .please do).
>At this point, we have FIA steadfastly holding that the rules state NO tire >changes.
>So, was FIA eventually willing to allow a tire change?
>I agree what Michelin seemed to sort screw up a bit, but life is not 100% >perfect, and FIA should allowed a tire change.
>Of course, with no tire change allowed, then the debate shifted to the >adding of the chicane. When that fell through, they were simply out of time.
>So, sure, Michelin had a miss-cue, but FIA should come up with a way to use >the Spanish tires. Perhaps even asking Bridgestone to supply tires.
>The issue as the end of the day is how to deal with a problem. We can all >stand here and say gee, Michelin had a problem with their tires. Also, we >can say that rules are rule. At this point, management (FIA) has to deal >with this issue, and you can see that the way things went, we got a mess. >They had a problem, and they needed a BETTER soltion then what happned.
>It is not clear if Spanish tires could have been shipped in time - these >folks simply ran out of time solution wise.
>At least now, when they got this type of problem, the management and teams >will work harder to come up with a soltion...
Yes - the FIA were not going to allow a tyres change without applying a heavy penalty, to prevent a precident to allow qualifying tyres back into F1. However, nowhere have i seen it suggested that qualifying could be rerun on the new tyres. Maybe that was proposed and rejected, but I haven't seen it.
The chicane thing was never likely to happen without Ferrari accepting it, and why should they accept it when it gives them no advantage, and possibly hinders them (having done all their setups to date on a different configuration) yet they'd done nothing wrong. In theory Ferrari could have made the decision to accept the chicane for the good of the sport (to allow a race to run) but it's neither in their nature to do that (in recent history) which is fair enough, as their aim is to win, nor did it appear that the FIA would allow a chicane even if all teams agreed.
Unless some compomise could be found with the Spanish tyres (assuming it was the Spanish tyres) and that Michelin were happy they were safe, then there wasn't going to be more than a 6 car race.
My understanding is that F1 cars are suitably tailored to the tyres they use, that it could be dangerous for the Michelin teams to race on Bridgestones without heavy testing (probably much more than I proposed for the Spanish tyres and also more than there was time to test them), however, Commercial and legal implications aside (if that were possible) maybe putting everyone on Bridgestones on Sunday morning and having a test session and new qualifying session might have been the best solution.
> My understanding is that Michelin originally declared the problem with > the tyres on Saturday and said they could ship over Spanish spec ones > immediately.
> Under those circumstances, why not let them.
AFAIK they did ship them in - but the carcass construction was the same as the Indy tyre so they wouldn't have been safe either.
>From what I heard, Michelin runners were prepared to race for no
points. Fans and sponsors would have had their race and Bridgestone teams would have had their points, everybody would have been happy . The best FIA could come up was to slow down the cars at a certain corner!!!! they think spectators would been fooled into believing that it was a proper race. FIA rules are not clear cut and subject to interpretation but it seems FIA dinosaurs are incapable of dealing with complex situations which can arise from a very complex multi disciplinary sport.
