were going to TEXAS,... God i hope this works out.....
Jason Hoehn
sweet jesus I hope I'm wrong,... It sounds pretty definite now
Got this one from 7thgear,...
http://7thgear.com/7grumors1.htm
Heres a link,....
http://dallasnews.com/sports_day/auto/107170_06cartlede.html
heres another link
http://www.star-telegram.com/news/doc/1047/1:CAR41/1:CAR410706100.html
There is a Dallas Morning News report and also a Ft. Worth Star-Telegram
report which confirm the rumor.
Earlier today - Eddie Gossage was just interviewed live on WBAP DFW talk
radio. Gossage stated that next Tuesday they will formally announce a CART
FEDEX race at TMS for 2001. He would not give up on any front to get name,
sponsor, length, or date. The news team asked him directly about a CART
night race and IROC. His answer was, "you are sniffing up the wrong tree".
There was no mention of Lights or Barber Dodge. He spent most of the time
touting all the series they will be able to claim dates for hosting. He
dropped Rahal's name 4 times in the 6 minute interview and openly stated he
wants to see Rahal take the position at a full time permanent position not
interim. "I like what Bobby is doing and where he is going in the series"
(older stuff snipped)
_____________________________________
"Everyones a genius, just being themselves..."
--- Neal Cassady
Jack Frillman
I hope it turns out to be an unfounded rumor. That last thing CART needs on the
schedule is another high banked oval. They have too many as it is.
If this is true it means that 3 ovals (Texas, England & Germany) will be added
to the schedule next year and only one road course (Mexico). They should be
adding more road course instead of ovals IMHO.
Yea I know they are limited by the agreemnt with the FIA for events outside
of N. America but that does not explain TMS.
Jason Hoehn (jason...@home.com) wrote:
: Lord help us all,.. This may be a huge mistake, but I hope I am wrong,..
--
\ /
\ /
---------------------+ ( ) +------------------
Jack Frillman | ^ " Carrots are divine you | LEXIS Publishing
Sr. Software Engineer| *\/|\ get a dozen for a dime, | P.O. Box 933
(513) 865-6800 | |/ it's magic! | Dayton, Oh 45401
EXT. 4812 | | -Bugs Bunny |
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-- --
Doug Meredith
>
>I hope it turns out to be an unfounded rumor. That last thing CART needs on the
>schedule is another high banked oval. They have too many as it is.
Are there any others high banked ovals? Texas is something like 24
degrees. I thought this was way more than any other track that CART
went to. Anybody know?
Doug
--------------------------------------------
Doug Meredith
SystemGuard - Oracle remote support
877-974-8273 (87-SYSGUARD)
506-854-7997
www.systemguard.com
Jack Frillman
: ja...@lexis-nexis.com (Jack Frillman) wrote:
: >
: >I hope it turns out to be an unfounded rumor. That last thing CART needs on the
: >schedule is another high banked oval. They have too many as it is.
: Are there any others high banked ovals? Texas is something like 24
: degrees. I thought this was way more than any other track that CART
: went to. Anybody know?
Michigan and Fontana.
Jim Getzen
> : degrees. I thought this was way more than any other track that CART
> : went to. Anybody know?
>
> Michigan and Fontana.
Actually, Michigan is only (?) 18 degrees and Fontana is 14 degrees. I
wouldn't call even 18 degrees high-banked, but it is getting close.
Of course, Texas is 1.5 miles around and Michigan/Fontana are 2 miles,
further enhancing the contrast.
Jim Getzen
John Clarke
Jack Frillman <ja...@lexis-nexis.com> wrote:
>
>I hope it turns out to be an unfounded rumor. That last thing CART needs on the
>schedule is another high banked oval. They have too many as it is.
>
>to the schedule next year and only one road course (Mexico). They should be
>adding more road course instead of ovals IMHO.
Keep in mind that both Homestead and St. Louis are being dropped, so
it pretty much balances out. There is also plenty of talk about Road
Atlanta, so I'm keeping my eye on that.
John
rik anthrax
Jason Hoehn <jason...@home.com> wrote in message
news:jK395.58223$ef6.7...@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com...
Jack Frillman
: In article <8k2lev$9pv$1...@mailgate2.lexis-nexis.com>,
Do we know this for sure or is it just rumored?
I am hoping for Road Atlanta also.
Brian P. Sweeney
<jason...@home.com> wrote:
>Lord help us all,.. This may be a huge mistake, but I hope I am wrong,..
>sweet jesus I hope I'm wrong,... It sounds pretty definite now
I hope it flops and flops badly. CART needs to lose its oval fixation.
John Clarke
Jack Frillman <ja...@lexis-nexis.com> wrote:
>John Clarke (jcl...@nortel.ca) wrote:
>
>: Keep in mind that both Homestead and St. Louis are being dropped, so
>: it pretty much balances out. There is also plenty of talk about Road
>: Atlanta, so I'm keeping my eye on that.
>
>Do we know this for sure or is it just rumored?
>I am hoping for Road Atlanta also.
I thought I'd hear for sure about Homestead and St. Louis (or have
I just turned 7th Gear rumours into fact?), but Road Atlanta is still
an "interested but unsigned" party.
John
Jason Hoehn
As much as I disagree with you about Ovals (CART needs at least a few,
IMO),... I think you're right about it flopping... I dunno if CART will draw
much better in Texas than the IRL. Im guessing it will only be marginally
better... And then CART will have to pull out of Texas,.. Score one for the
IRL iof that happens, it will make CART look second rate ot the IRL if they
do leave before the IRL,.. Personally i hope no CART events are flops in the
new schedule...
on the other hand, maybe it will be much more successful than the IRL, and
even less people will go to Texas for the IRL event. In that case Score one
for CART....
With all of that said, hopefully it will be a night race... I think CART
could be very entertaining under the lights...... As for racing on a 24
degree high bank with the low donforce high horsepower Champcars?... makes
me say "hummmm...." I hope it isn't a wreck fest.
Either way its going to be interesting how CART draws at what is previously
only the domain of the IRL and NASCAR,..
Doug Finch
wrote:
>Lord help us all,.. This may be a huge mistake, but I hope I am wrong,..
>sweet jesus I hope I'm wrong,... It sounds pretty definite now
Thanks for the links... but I'm curious why you're worried
about CART at TMS? Safety? Audience numbers? As far as safety goes,
I'd say it's no worse than Michigan/Fontana (which isn't that great
actually...). For audience, I think it'll do alright - they manage to
have 2 IRNLS races there.
I have a really strong feeling that Rahal will bring in some
kind of "restrictor plate" to keep the speeds down and will abandon
the Hanford devices. Should keep things reasonably safe at TMS.
---------------------------------------------------------------
There are only 2 types of people in the world:
Those who are about to do something bad to their hard disk
and those who just did.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Jason Hoehn
If Atlanta comes to fruition it makes me wonder abou the schedule,.. Man
CART would have a giant dance card for 2002... If (and when) both E-ovals
happen, and with Mexico and now Texas, PLUS if Atlanta happened CART would
have a huge schedule... 23 races in a season?? Man, I would hate to do the
logistics for something like that.... Althoigh I think its great for CART
that they seem to be expanding so much of late....
Plus don't forget the runoured Eastern date in NY or Philly, or the new oval
in France, or the possibilty of a road course in Europe, plus Montreal
(there still talking about that one), Plus the possibilty of going back to
Phoenix,.....
yeeesh,..... theres a lot of possibilty pf big schedule changes, but its all
very positive IMO...
Jason Hoehn
Champcars aren't IRL cars, they are low downforce high horsepower cars, and
on a banked oval that could be a bad thing,... But like you say, bobby will
probably come up with some form of 'restrictor plate' and take some
horsepower off the cars without messing up the aero to much, I think that
would be a step in the right direction,..
But my bigger concern is the numbers. Not just TV but more so at the track.
I think (with all respect to texans) that Texas is NASCAR country, and that
one race with pointy cars at TMS is enough. I don't know if CART can do much
better than the IRL in Texas, and I think a really empty set of grandstands
on TV won't look good. Even if CART gets 90,000 butts in the seats the crowd
will still look kinda thin. So if CART pulls out, they look bad in the eyes
of the casual fan in the south, and the IRL will probably still be there...
However if CART can take away some of the IRL fans that may be a good thing
for CART, but I really don't know if they can really expect to do that.
I will say one thing about the IRL I think it has more appeal to the (again
with respect) southern fans because it is marketed as a more "american" form
if indycar oval racing, and having AJ in the series only re-enforces that
with the stock car set who may have only mild interest in pointy cars... If
i was from the south which series would I follow? the one with all the
foreigners and races on road curcuits? or the one that races on ovals, the
indy500 and has AJ Foyt and Al Unser jr. involved?.....
Brian P. Sweeney
<jason...@home.com> wrote:
> > I hope it flops and flops badly. CART needs to lose its oval fixation.
>
> As much as I disagree with you about Ovals (CART needs at least a few,
> IMO),... I think you're right about it flopping... I dunno if CART will draw
> much better in Texas than the IRL. Im guessing it will only be marginally
> better... And then CART will have to pull out of Texas,.. Score one for the
> IRL iof that happens, it will make CART look second rate ot the IRL if they
> do leave before the IRL,.. Personally i hope no CART events are flops in the
> new schedule...
The difference is that CART will consider IRL-style attendance to be a
dismal failure, while the IRL considers it an overwhelming success.
The IRL is simply too dumb to realize that they should have left a long
time ago.
>
> on the other hand, maybe it will be much more successful than the IRL, and
> even less people will go to Texas for the IRL event. In that case Score one
> for CART....
Great. A night CART oval race in a place where I have zero desire to visit.
>
> With all of that said, hopefully it will be a night race... I think CART
> could be very entertaining under the lights...... As for racing on a 24
> degree high bank with the low donforce high horsepower Champcars?... makes
> me say "hummmm...." I hope it isn't a wreck fest.
Yee ha! Oval racing under the lights. CART has taken a massive step
backwards with this appeal to the NASCAR crowd.
Road Atlanta has no CART event, but a completely unappealing tourist
destination gets one. Brilliant.
> Either way its going to be interesting how CART draws at what is previously
> only the domain of the IRL and NASCAR,..
Yeah, all those Dallas CART fans are just frothing for a race.
Big mistake.
Tom Heath
Handjob device. Offering a processional, as opposed to wheel to wheel racing
won't encourage many people to return.
I don't think taking the Lord's name in vain will help your cause either.
Tom H.
--
"We need to make peace with Indianapolis. We need to go down
there on bended knee and say, 'What can we do to make you happy?' We've
danced long enough, and it's time to get married - or at least go to bed
together"
"In all honesty, Tony George doesn't need us. We need to find a way to
convince him he does."
Pat Patrick - USA Today, Friday, May 26, 2000
"Jason Hoehn" <jason...@home.com> wrote in message
news:jK395.58223$ef6.7...@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com...
> Lord help us all,.. This may be a huge mistake, but I hope I am wrong,..
> sweet jesus I hope I'm wrong,... It sounds pretty definite now
>
Tom Heath
Are you looking for another non passing event or do you have other dire
expectations?
There are plenty of events on the cart schedule - it's unfortunate that you
can not embrace the diversity and heritage of the cart series.
Tom H.
--
"We need to make peace with Indianapolis. We need to go down
there on bended knee and say, 'What can we do to make you happy?' We've
danced long enough, and it's time to get married - or at least go to bed
together"
"In all honesty, Tony George doesn't need us. We need to find a way to
convince him he does."
Pat Patrick - USA Today, Friday, May 26, 2000
"Brian P. Sweeney" <rascpro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rascproponents-...@ppp-199.tnt-1.ind.smartworld.net...
> In article <jK395.58223$ef6.7...@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com>, "Jason Hoehn"
> <jason...@home.com> wrote:
>
> >Lord help us all,.. This may be a huge mistake, but I hope I am wrong,..
> >sweet jesus I hope I'm wrong,... It sounds pretty definite now
>
Tom Heath
Tom H.
--
"We need to make peace with Indianapolis. We need to go down
there on bended knee and say, 'What can we do to make you happy?' We've
danced long enough, and it's time to get married - or at least go to bed
together"
"In all honesty, Tony George doesn't need us. We need to find a way to
convince him he does."
Pat Patrick - USA Today, Friday, May 26, 2000
"Brian P. Sweeney" <rascpro...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:rascproponents-...@ppp-178.tnt-1.ind.smartworld.net...
> In article <Lvp95.61149$ef6.7...@news1.rdc1.ab.home.com>, "Jason Hoehn"
> <jason...@home.com> wrote:
>
> > > I hope it flops and flops badly. CART needs to lose its oval fixation.
> >
Jason Hoehn
Thats the thing about CART, it seems like the really good events are in
citis where there is something to do something beside just the race.
Vancouver is a beautiful and intersting city, as is Chicago, Long Beach,
Cleveland,.. Its kind of an interesting paradox. I personally would like to
see some demographics to find out who exactly is watching CART?... My guess
is it would be (and I don't want to sound elitist) educated 30 somethings
with a higher than average income... It just seems to me like thats the type
of demographic CART would attract...
>
> Big mistake.
Jason Hoehn
> How do you hope it flops?
>
> Are you looking for another non passing event or do you have other dire
> expectations?
>
> There are plenty of events on the cart schedule - it's unfortunate that
you
> can not embrace the diversity and heritage of the cart series.
>
Personally I hope its a big HUGE GIANT success and that CART increases its
share big time. But I'm not counting on it. Lets be honest, (a lot of) race
fans in texas have no idea where Colombia is, never mind cheering for a
driver from there... They've heard of AJ and Unser, so thats a big selling
point for the IRL. TIme will tell...
I hope it works out for CART.
Doug Finch
wrote:
>A little bit of both,....
I sorta thought so.
>But my bigger concern is the numbers. Not just TV but more so at the track.
>I think (with all respect to texans) that Texas is NASCAR country, and that
>one race with pointy cars at TMS is enough. I don't know if CART can do much
>better than the IRL in Texas, and I think a really empty set of grandstands
I think they'll do well - remember that Michigan sells well
every year, but due to the 'NASCAR Grandstands' tends to look empty.
I'd say about 70-80,000 will turn out. I don't agree that Texas is
NASCAR country - or that DFW is. Sure they have a NASCAR race now,
but Houston also has a CART event - and we can't forget (try as we
may) the Dallas GP in the 80s. I've heard from some folks that the
DFW area is pretty strong for open wheel racing - it's when you get to
Houston that NASCAR starts to reign.
>I will say one thing about the IRL I think it has more appeal to the (again
>with respect) southern fans because it is marketed as a more "american" form
>if indycar oval racing, and having AJ in the series only re-enforces that
>with the stock car set who may have only mild interest in pointy cars... If
Ah, but Texans are Texans - not Southerners. They're a breed
unto themselves!
-------------------------------------------------------------
"It will feel good to go back to Italy with
something big in my pocket."
"Alex" Zanardi, when asked about winning the
1997 CART championship.
--------------------------------------------------------------
- Do...@pobox.com (CDN) -
Jason Hoehn
Texan's tastes,...
I really really really hope the race is a huge huge success, and that CART
gets another good foothold in Texas. Another jammed CART Oval event would
be great.
I think the Houston race does well because houston is such a cosmopolitan
city. A lot of rich affluent people. It seems like NASCAR and Oval racing
still mostly appeals to the rural type.
Texans are bred upon themeselves?? I thought that was Kentucky???
*snort*
(sorry, couldn't resist)
Brian P. Sweeney
"Tom Heath" <tomh...@anti-social.com> wrote:
> How do you hope it flops?
>
> Are you looking for another non passing event or do you have other dire
> expectations?
>
> There are plenty of events on the cart schedule - it's unfortunate that you
> can not embrace the diversity and heritage of the cart series.
>
> Tom H.
Heritage? You sound like one of those aging, sentimental, bitter fools on
ras.indy.
I don't give a damn about heritage. I care about racing, and I'm not
beholden to the past for anything. CART does not need ovals, nor do I want
them. You want heritage? Watch a vintage race.
Give me Road Atlanta, and now.
Brian P. Sweeney
"Tom Heath" <tomh...@anti-social.com> wrote:
> It's a shame you don't share these insights with the MPH shareholders.
>
> Tom H.
What an empty statement. You want CART to do a proxy vote for each race?
Lowryter
can go to the races and come home on the same day.
DFW is 3rd or 4th largest metro in the US? I don't about the texas
demographics, but Dallas is a cosmpolitan and wealthy city (southern
effieciency with nothern cahrm; Ft Worth quite the opposite and friendly though
not so cosmo).
Attended the first "season" at Texas. The IRL seats were basically free, but
it was a better than the NASCAR races.
Think that open wheel oval racing is the best and "purest" auto racing in the
world. I also likes to watch CART on the road races, last attended CART in Mid
Ohio. The street circuiuts seem to have the biggest challenge for the show,
especially on TV...concrete, not scenery, and lillte passing. Would just as
soon see Houston dropped...Toronto, LB, and Vancouver are best of those.
The best thing about CART is the diversity and determing a Champion that can
race the most powerful race cars in the world on different types of circuits.
It has taken CART 5 years to get here. Perhaps this is an indication that
Craig really wasn't doing his job, since Rahal out this together in a couple
weeks.
I hope it is a big success and of course, I want one organization for Indy cars
and CART.
Jason Hoehn
pa...@intcomm.net
> I think they'll do well - remember that Michigan sells well
>every year, but due to the 'NASCAR Grandstands' tends to look empty.
>I'd say about 70-80,000 will turn out. I don't agree that Texas is
>NASCAR country - or that DFW is. Sure they have a NASCAR race now,
>but Houston also has a CART event - and we can't forget (try as we
>may) the Dallas GP in the 80s. I've heard from some folks that the
>DFW area is pretty strong for open wheel racing - it's when you get to
>Houston that NASCAR starts to reign.
You're dead on, Doug. People who say Dallas isn't a polished
"metropolitan" style of city must never have been there ...
Things like the Dallas Apparel Mart, the High-Tech Marketing Center (I
can't recall the exact name at the moment ...), etc. ...
NFL, MLB, NBA. and NHL teams ...
Some of the countries most respected high-performance *ROAD RACING*
and sports car racing shops and suppliers ...
Over the past few years, it has actually seemed that Dallas has become
far more progressive and cosmopolitan than Houston, which seems to be
growing more and more stagnant as a Texas city ...
As far it goes, people tend to forget that Texas has produced far more
world class road racing drivers and riders, and high-tech sports car
racing outfits, along with folks that are quite adept at such European
based motorsports activities like moto-cross ...
For instance ...
Carroll Shelby ... (yep, he sure is a NASCAR type, right ???)
Jim Hall ... (never saw a Chaparral at a NASCAR event ...)
Hap Sharp ...
Lloyd Ruby ...
Johnny Rutherford ...
A.J. Foyt ... (well, he did a few NASCAR events, but who can forget
his Can-Am drives and Le Mans, or his drives in the USRRC, etc. ...
and he certainly never started out to be in a stock car ...)
John Mecom ... (he's from Houston, and though not a driver, as a team
owner he produced some great race cars, great teams, mostly in sports
car racing, though he did have that little Indy 500 win with that
rookie, Graham Hill ...)
Doug Polen ... (world champion motorcycle road racer, and from
Dallas, no less ...)
Kevin Swantz ... (pretty damn good motorcycle roady racer, too, and
from right down there 'round Houston ... Humble, TX. ...)
Colin Edwards ... (may very well be the next world champion from
Texas ... although in world superbike competition ...)
Freddie Spencer ... (yeah, he's actually from Shreveport, LA, but he
did all of his early road racing in Texas before getting those factory
rides, and he won world championships in 250 and 500cc GP classes)
John Koczinski ... (okay, he's from Oklahoma, but he also started
his career literally exclusively in Texas ...)
Kent Howerton ... (MX Gp win to his credit, and multiple national MX
titles ...)
Steve Stackable ... (well, no championships, but one of the best
MXers ever, none the less ...)
Wyman Priddy ... (again, no championships, but renowned as the best
ever starter in the history of MX ...)
Steve Wise ... (perhaps the most natural MX talent until David
Bailey came along, and who can forget his multiple ABC "Superbikers"
wins, which got him his rides in road racing, and he was leading the
US Superbike national championship until an injury ended his road
racing career ...)
Bubba Shobert ... (yep ... He's got a NASCAR sounding name, but US
Superbike road racing champion, nonetheless ...)
VDS Engines in Midland, TX ... (for a long time the only rebuild
facility for Ilmor engines in the US of A ... until Ilmor finally
built their own in Michigan ...)
How about the Lozano Bros. down in San Antonio who built all of those
IMSA engines, and countless other road racing engines for who knows
how long ...
along with many others I'm sure I am forgetting ...
Sure, there's the Labonte boys from right down here in ol' Corpus
Christi, TX, but Texas is a far, far cry from being NASCAR-centric ...
>>I will say one thing about the IRL I think it has more appeal to the (again
>>with respect) southern fans because it is marketed as a more "american" form
>>if indycar oval racing, and having AJ in the series only re-enforces that
>>with the stock car set who may have only mild interest in pointy cars... If
>
> Ah, but Texans are Texans - not Southerners. They're a breed
>unto themselves!
Ah, yes ... Texas ... Its a whole 'nother Country ...
Allan
Barry Posner
pa...@intcomm.net wrote:
>
> You're dead on, Doug. People who say Dallas isn't a polished
> "metropolitan" style of city must never have been there ...
To get the true measure of a city, you have to live there. But: speaking
as a visitor/tourist, I have to say that Austin and SA *seem* like much
nicer places to visit. Not quite as intimidating, on much more af a
human scale. And better cultured. The Tex-Czech-Mex mix of San Antonio
is unique in the States, it really is like nowhere else. And the UT area
in Austin is an incredibly cool place to hang out.
I have relatives who recently moved from Houston to Houston North
(Calgary), and they couldn't be happier to leave.
bp
GoBucks10
still concerned that TMS maybe unsafe for CART no matter what the speed.
Jason Hoehn
> > You're dead on, Doug. People who say Dallas isn't a polished
> > "metropolitan" style of city must never have been there ...
> I have relatives who recently moved from Houston to Houston North
> (Calgary), and they couldn't be happier to leave.
Okay, now this is getting freaky....
I live in Calgary (Originally from Edmonton... I practically live there part
time, I go up so much..) and a buddy of mine who just worked 3 weeks in
dallas said he would love to Leave Calgary and live in Dallas,.... The grass
is always greener I guess... A guy could always do the
Houston-Calgary-Dallas move I guess....
Its weird living in Calgary. Its basically an american city stuck in Canada.
(something like 10% of the population is american,...) Theres a lot of thing
I like about Calgary, but theres a lot of things I genuinely dislike about
Calgary. (massive traffic congestion in a city of less than a million...)..
Give me vancouver. granted its busier and expensive as hell, but its an
amazing city....
pa...@intcomm.net
wrote:
>To get the true measure of a city, you have to live there. But: speaking
>as a visitor/tourist, I have to say that Austin and SA *seem* like much
>nicer places to visit. Not quite as intimidating, on much more af a
>human scale. And better cultured. The Tex-Czech-Mex mix of San Antonio
>is unique in the States, it really is like nowhere else. And the UT area
>in Austin is an incredibly cool place to hang out.
Hey ... Don't get me wrong, Barry. I absolutely *LOVE* Austin ...
It is, perhaps, my favorite city in all of Texas, and it is in many
ways the most diverse and entertaining city in the state. I look for
just about any reason to go up there, and I have many friends there.
The one race I used to never miss competing in was the Austin Aqua
Festival Road Races near downtown, around the Municipal Auditorium
(yes, that's right folks ... a street course motorcycle road race
with the main straight right down Riverside Drive along the
river ...). Great nightlife, incredible music, wonderful food, and
pretty and friendly, to boot ...
I like San Antonio, too ... for all the reasons you mention ...
but I guess I have kind of gotten burned out on it the past few years.
Still have lots of friends there (and Howerton still lives there, and
*STILL* regularly kicks ass in the Hare Scrambles National that comes
through Texas ... at 45 years young ...). I never missed the IMSA
races downtown there ... Too bad the promoter shafted the city and
ruined it for the race fans ...
>I have relatives who recently moved from Houston to Houston North
>(Calgary), and they couldn't be happier to leave.
Hey ... I was born in Houston, and my entire family hails from
there. But, that don't mean I like it. Somewhere along the way it lost
its soul, along with its sense of style ... Now its like so many
other "big" US cities ... really faceless, certainly tasteless, and
still trying to have the flash, but with no real dash ... Its a
"poser" city now ... no longer having any real identity or flavor.
Whatever culture it had is long, long gone ...
Allan
Barry Posner
Jason Hoehn wrote:
> Give me vancouver. granted its busier and expensive as hell, but its an
> amazing city....
As I said, you have to live in a city to get the true measure of it.
Having spent the last year in Vancouver, let me tell you: it is a scenic
cesspit.
Yes, there is the ocean and the mountains. All very nice to look at, and
good for recreation, but the city is absurdly expensive, tough to get
around (people here refuse to build freeways, and deliberate traffic
congestion is used as a device to try and stop people from driving,
which doesn't work), it has far too many heroin addicts who will gladly
bust you car window for the loose change inside it. It is noisy, smelly,
crowded, snobbish, rootless and belligerent. I'm sick and tired of
waving off squeegee kids at every intersection. I hate having to plug
parking meters every day of the week. I hate the rain. I hate having to
pay $700 for an apartment that would cost $400 in any civilized place.
When you combine that with the culture of paternalism that pervades
government *and* the people here, let me tell you: Vancouver is a great
place to visit, but I'd much sooner be living in Edmonton. Or anywhere.
I'm gonna miss the sushi, though.
bp