GPL and realism
Harjan Brand
of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. There's nobody being a
hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left foot braking at
almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Even in modern
racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1, Rally and on
ovals.
So why do we do it? Because it's possible I presume. I would like Papy to
offer a small patch which turns off the auto clutch and the auto blip so we
could do some real heel and toeing (or inside out as I do it). This would
really make things far more realistic and the times as well probably. The
only problem is that not many people have more that two pedals, but for
those who have it would be great, don't you think?
I would have rearrange my Logi brake pedal and F1 Sim throttle so I could
heel and toe but that won't too much of a problem. I'll start using it from
now on.
Oh and anyone wondering about the status of my little sim it's going very
slowly but I'm right on it. In about 5 years time I'll have a rolling car.
Harjan.
robswindells
bang up and down the 'box without using the clutch. In fact it was better to do
it that way. Of course, you have to lift off the accelerator when you are
shifting, as you do in GPL (in advanced damage modes).
If I ever drive a 1967 F1 car, I'll let you know if this is possible...
Harjan Brand wrote:
--
Rob Swindells
[Rob Swindells Racing] http://swindells.8m.com
"Add life to your days, not days to your life."
"The greatest substitute for talent is hard work."
"Doing it, is better than watching it, is better than simulating it."
"I may not be perfect, but parts of me are excellent."
Gregor Veble
>
> I don't know if this was the case in 1967, but in my FFord it was fine to just
> bang up and down the 'box without using the clutch. In fact it was better to do
> it that way. Of course, you have to lift off the accelerator when you are
> shifting, as you do in GPL (in advanced damage modes).
>
> If I ever drive a 1967 F1 car, I'll let you know if this is possible...
>
It's been a long time since I read the Four Wheel Drift that came with
GPL, but I think that's exactly what's written there, for both up and
downshifting. Yet watching the movie Grand Prix reveals some wonderful
heel-and-toe practice along with the use of clutch. Go figure.
-Gregor
Richard G Clegg
: It's been a long time since I read the Four Wheel Drift that came with
: GPL, but I think that's exactly what's written there, for both up and
: downshifting. Yet watching the movie Grand Prix reveals some wonderful
: heel-and-toe practice along with the use of clutch. Go figure.
From memory - the '67 cars didn't need a clutch to shift gear but many
were so cramped in the footwell that left foot braking wasn't possible.
Not sure how accurate the movie GP was (wish I could find a copy)
--
Richard G. Clegg Only the mind is waving
Networks and Non-Linear Dynamics Group
Dept. of Mathematics, Uni. of York
UPDATED WWW: http://manor.york.ac.uk/
Mike Barlow
>Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almost all
>of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. There's nobody being a
>hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left foot braking at
>almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Even in modern
>racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1, Rally and on
>ovals.
>
>So why do we do it? Because it's possible I presume. I would like Papy to
>offer a small patch which turns off the auto clutch and the auto blip so we
>could do some real heel and toeing (or inside out as I do it). This would
>really make things far more realistic and the times as well probably. The
>only problem is that not many people have more that two pedals, but for
>those who have it would be great, don't you think?
I agree with you that it would be a good thing to have the autoclutch
disabled. However, I think there's only a couple of controlers out there
that have a clutch incorporated right now as you mentioned. Once there's a
lot of controlers with clutches Then turning the autoclutch off would help
realism. In my opinion, untill the avalibility of clutch use is programmed
in to many racing sims, I don't think controler manufacturers will make them
a standerd issue. Then add in the transition where more and more Race Sims
have the clutch avalibility, Controler manufacturers will only have a clutch
expantion pack or add on feature. Again In my opinion, That transition
period will last at least 4 years with the clutch being standerd issue with
all controlers in the 5th year (2005 or 6). Then what about ware on the
pots. Once the pot is worn down, during the peddel travel it'll get to the
point where the clutch will give you a on/off then on/off then on/off effect
making the lever clutch usless. Unless there's a penilty fo some kind such
as grinding gears and tranny brake downs.
One more issue would be changing gears while at speed. A button would
work a whole lot quicker then a lever/peddel. So, to gain an extra 0.1 per
shift with the benifit of over a second per lap... I'd set up a lever for
starts and a button for at speed shifts. So, a manual clutch system would
vertualy be worthless. :-( That's of course if there's no penilties for a
suddon snap of power to the drive train with the on/off button configuration
as mentioned above.
just something to think about,
Mike
Harjan Brand
synchro meshed gearbox?
Doesn't the gearbox make quite some noise?
As far as I know the only way to downshift without a clutch is to match the
revs with road speed and that's done by heel and toeing which isn't very
effective without declutching as we can imagine. Even if you do use the
clutch it's hard to shift down without heel and toeing, hence it's even
smoother to do it in my synchro meshed road car.
Most of us will remember the onboard pictures of Ukyo Katayama's feet during
practise for the Grand Prix of Suzuka. His feet were all over the place,
going down the box.
I never use the clutch on the upshift in a Formula Ford but I have to on the
downshift. Same for the Formula Palmer Audi, I thought. Although I'm not
quite sure because I was having big time problem with the shifts.
I'm 100% sure that GPL models an autoclutch on the downshift (not sure about
the upshift) because you hear a auto rev blip on the downshift, and you
can't blip safely without using the clutch. Without matching the two speeds
you'll hear a lot of strange noises.
Harjan.
"robswindells" <robswi...@netscapeonline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:38FAF4E0...@netscapeonline.co.uk...
> I don't know if this was the case in 1967, but in my FFord it was fine to
just
> bang up and down the 'box without using the clutch. In fact it was better
to do
> it that way. Of course, you have to lift off the accelerator when you are
> shifting, as you do in GPL (in advanced damage modes).
>
> If I ever drive a 1967 F1 car, I'll let you know if this is possible...
>
> Harjan Brand wrote:
>
> > Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almost
all
> > of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. There's nobody being
a
> > hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left foot braking at
> > almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Even in
modern
> > racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1, Rally and
on
> > ovals.
> >
> > So why do we do it? Because it's possible I presume. I would like Papy
to
> > offer a small patch which turns off the auto clutch and the auto blip so
we
> > could do some real heel and toeing (or inside out as I do it). This
would
> > really make things far more realistic and the times as well probably.
The
> > only problem is that not many people have more that two pedals, but for
> > those who have it would be great, don't you think?
> >
Matthew B.Knutsen
robswindells <robswi...@netscapeonline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:38FAF4E0...@netscapeonline.co.uk...
> I don't know if this was the case in 1967, but in my FFord it was fine to
just
> bang up and down the 'box without using the clutch. In fact it was better
to do
> it that way. Of course, you have to lift off the accelerator when you are
> shifting, as you do in GPL (in advanced damage modes).
I've got one word for you Rob; Dogrings!
<g>
Normally you won't need to clutch when going up through the box, this is no
problem if you do it right (heck you clutch so fast anyway), but there are
two major reasons to start clutching on downshifting:
1) When you get more than the odd 100 HP behind your back, gearboxes start
taking a severe beating
2) When you get more rubber grabbing the road, things become *very*
noticeable. If you miss the revs ever so slightly, you'll have teeny lockups
of the rear wheels, upsetting the balance of the car, which may put you in
uncomfortable positions...so get the heel and toe in. Practice in road cars,
and you'll find it is natural in racecars. Smooth is fast, remember :)
Oh, one more thing...you won't have mad mechanics like me running after you
throwing dead dogrings at you :-D
Matt / heel'n toe fan
Martyn Danby
We all wouldn't have to have a 3rd pedal, all we need is someone to make
a no auto clutch patch, and the hardcore nuts would follow
Md
+)
Mike Barlow wrote:
>
> Harjan Brand wrote in message ...
> >Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almost all
> >of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. There's nobody being a
> >hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left foot braking at
> >almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Even in modern
> >racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1, Rally and on
> >ovals.
> >
> >So why do we do it? Because it's possible I presume. I would like Papy to
> >offer a small patch which turns off the auto clutch and the auto blip so we
> >could do some real heel and toeing (or inside out as I do it). This would
> >really make things far more realistic and the times as well probably. The
> >only problem is that not many people have more that two pedals, but for
> >those who have it would be great, don't you think?
>
robswindells
seem to pose any problem, a corner where a balenced car is critical. The 'box
felt just beautiful to use, I hope I wasn't doing it any damage :)
"Matthew B.Knutsen" wrote:
> I've got one word for you Rob; Dogrings!
>
> <g>
>
> Normally you won't need to clutch when going up through the box, this is no
> problem if you do it right (heck you clutch so fast anyway), but there are
> two major reasons to start clutching on downshifting:
>
> 1) When you get more than the odd 100 HP behind your back, gearboxes start
> taking a severe beating
> 2) When you get more rubber grabbing the road, things become *very*
> noticeable. If you miss the revs ever so slightly, you'll have teeny lockups
> of the rear wheels, upsetting the balance of the car, which may put you in
> uncomfortable positions...so get the heel and toe in. Practice in road cars,
> and you'll find it is natural in racecars. Smooth is fast, remember :)
>
> Oh, one more thing...you won't have mad mechanics like me running after you
> throwing dead dogrings at you :-D
>
> Matt / heel'n toe fan
>
> >
> > If I ever drive a 1967 F1 car, I'll let you know if this is possible...
> >
> > Harjan Brand wrote:
> >
> > > Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almost
> all
> > > of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. There's nobody being
> a
> > > hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left foot braking at
> > > almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Even in
> modern
> > > racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1, Rally and
> on
> > > ovals.
> > >
> > > So why do we do it? Because it's possible I presume. I would like Papy
> to
> > > offer a small patch which turns off the auto clutch and the auto blip so
> we
> > > could do some real heel and toeing (or inside out as I do it). This
> would
> > > really make things far more realistic and the times as well probably.
> The
> > > only problem is that not many people have more that two pedals, but for
> > > those who have it would be great, don't you think?
> > >
Alpha Omega
wrote:
>Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almost all
>of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. There's nobody being a
>hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left foot braking at
>almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Even in modern
>racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1, Rally and on
>ovals.
What about us right foot drivers? I drive an automatic car in 'real
life', so left foot breaking feels very unnatural.
I sometimes use a combination of controllers if I really want to put
the clutch to good use. I use the pedals on my MSFF wheel for breaking
and acceleration, and I assign one of the movements on my MS
Sidewinder Precision Pro (non USB) for the clutch. A digital clutch
feels very unrealistic and so does the clutch control being maintained
by hand, but considering the alternative it works pretty well.
Alpha Omega
E-Mail: alpha...@dial.pipex.com
ICQ: 70300233
Don Scurlock
to cramped to heal and toe properly. I was upshifting without the clutch and
down shifting with the clutch but with no throttle blip. It's a timing thing,
it worked fine, the instructor knew what I was doing and was ok with it.
har...@bart.nl (Harjan Brand) wrote in <d1FK4.2368$ZN1....@Typhoon.bART.nl>:
>Sorry Rob, but I don't quite get that, so you don't heel and toe with a non
>synchro meshed gearbox?
>Doesn't the gearbox make quite some noise?
>As far as I know the only way to downshift without a clutch is to match the
>revs with road speed and that's done by heel and toeing which isn't very
>effective without declutching as we can imagine. Even if you do use the
>clutch it's hard to shift down without heel and toeing, hence it's even
>smoother to do it in my synchro meshed road car.
>
>Most of us will remember the onboard pictures of Ukyo Katayama's feet during
>practise for the Grand Prix of Suzuka. His feet were all over the place,
>going down the box.
>
>I never use the clutch on the upshift in a Formula Ford but I have to on the
>downshift. Same for the Formula Palmer Audi, I thought. Although I'm not
>quite sure because I was having big time problem with the shifts.
>
>I'm 100% sure that GPL models an autoclutch on the downshift (not sure about
>the upshift) because you hear a auto rev blip on the downshift, and you
>can't blip safely without using the clutch. Without matching the two speeds
>you'll hear a lot of strange noises.
>
>Harjan.
>
>
>
>"robswindells" <robswi...@netscapeonline.co.uk> wrote in message
>news:38FAF4E0...@netscapeonline.co.uk...
>> I don't know if this was the case in 1967, but in my FFord it was fine to
>just
>> bang up and down the 'box without using the clutch. In fact it was better
>to do
>> it that way. Of course, you have to lift off the accelerator when you are
>> shifting, as you do in GPL (in advanced damage modes).
>>
--
Don Scurlock
Vancouver,B.C.
Don Scurlock
<38FB46E8...@netscapeonline.co.uk>:
>Well, downshifting from 4th to 3rd at Paddock Hill without the clutch didn't
>seem to pose any problem, a corner where a balenced car is critical. The 'box
>felt just beautiful to use, I hope I wasn't doing it any damage :)
The transmission doesn't know or care whether the clutch is used or not. What
it does care about is not having any torque going through it when you are
changing gears, and having the dogs of the two mating gears going at the same
rpm. You can releave it of torque completely by timing your throttle release.
Matching the speed of the mating gears on downshifts without using the clutch
is dicey. Transmission designs vary, if it feels good, no clunks or jerks, it
probably is.
--
Don Scurlock
Vancouver,B.C.
Harjan Brand
Donington.
It's possible but it less smooth and it's hard to keep the balance right,
and if you really brake late it almost impossible to do it, no matter how
good your timing is.
When you're really on the limit you'll just have to do it.
"Don Scurlock" <dscurlo...@home.com> wrote in message
news:8F1973B69dscurlock@news...
Harjan Brand
I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a manual
shifter.
With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'll be
left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time and there's
no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about an automatic.
"Alpha Omega" <alpha...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:p0lmfs8k2kbc5tvh0...@4ax.com...
Martyn Danby
I find I can't drive GPL with 1 foot, but i also found i can't drive a
US automatic with 2 feet, well i can, but if i had any passengers they'd
be bitchin about spilling their coffee when i hit the brakes +). Its
different when there is actually resistance in the brake pedal. As I
said i don't drive in reality much, and don't think it would take me
that long to adjust.
Md
Dave Henrie
the left foot to brake with an Automatic. If you are like most of us
lazy Americans, you will rest your left foot on the brake pedal...What
does this do? Wears out your brake pads and confuses the Hell out of
anyone following you in traffic.
dave henrie
Rich
> Plus any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone using
>the left foot to brake with an Automatic. If you are like most of us
>lazy Americans, you will rest your left foot on the brake pedal...What
>does this do? Wears out your brake pads and confuses the Hell out of
>anyone following you in traffic.
>dave henrie
what is the obsession of the US of using auto gears in cars. i'm not
getting at the US too much here i just want to know why anyone would
possibly prefer one over driving a car with a manual gearbox.
the only time we use autos in europe is in dodgem cars isn't it ??
Rich
Harjan Brand
a automatic I use my left foot. I'm used to left foot braking, so for me
there's no problem in doing it.
People who aren't used to braking with their left foot should not give it a
try in their road car.
"Dave Henrie" <hen...@home.com> wrote in message
news:38FB7043...@home.com...
> Plus any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone using
> the left foot to brake with an Automatic. If you are like most of us
> lazy Americans, you will rest your left foot on the brake pedal...What
> does this do? Wears out your brake pads and confuses the Hell out of
> anyone following you in traffic.
> dave henrie
>
Martyn Danby
big mac and shiftin at the same time!!! +)
Its called the grid system, on the highway they are straight and booring
in most areas.
Personally i prefer a stick, but hey no car at the moment, and the GPZ
needs a few too many $$ ....
Md
Rich wrote:
>
> On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:15:04 GMT, Dave Henrie <hen...@home.com> wrote:
>
> > Plus any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone using
> >the left foot to brake with an Automatic. If you are like most of us
> >lazy Americans, you will rest your left foot on the brake pedal...What
> >does this do? Wears out your brake pads and confuses the Hell out of
> >anyone following you in traffic.
> >dave henrie
>
Alan Orton
the heel toe with out being on the city streets. I would have to make my
own pedals so they are just like my real car. It would be fun though. :)
Also Online if the Host could turn off Auto clutching to force everyone
to heel toe it would be great. It would also be great if there was drive
train wear and damage modeled as well for the people who think they
don't need to use a clutch or blip the throttle. ;)
Harjan Brand wrote:
>
> Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almost all
> of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. There's nobody being a
> hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left foot braking at
> almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Even in modern
> racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1, Rally and on
> ovals.
>
Tim Wheatley
eventually though ;o)
"robswindells" <robswi...@netscapeonline.co.uk> wrote in message
news:38FAF4E0...@netscapeonline.co.uk...
> I don't know if this was the case in 1967, but in my FFord it was fine to
just
> bang up and down the 'box without using the clutch. In fact it was better
to do
> it that way. Of course, you have to lift off the accelerator when you are
> shifting, as you do in GPL (in advanced damage modes).
>
> If I ever drive a 1967 F1 car, I'll let you know if this is possible...
>
EldredP
>I would love to see this option, Harjan. It would really help practice
>the heel toe with out being on the city streets. I would have to make my
>own pedals so they are just like my real car. It would be fun though. :)
>Also Online if the Host could turn off Auto clutching to force everyone
>to heel toe it would be great. It would also be great if there was drive
>train wear and damage modeled as well for the people who think they
>don't need to use a clutch or blip the throttle. ;)
>
You think there are too few drivers in VROC *now*...<g>
Eldred
--
Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc
Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
with experience...
Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
EldredP
<r.en...@delta.telenordia.se> writes:
>> Plus any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone using
>>the left foot to brake with an Automatic. If you are like most of us
>>lazy Americans, you will rest your left foot on the brake pedal...What
>>does this do? Wears out your brake pads and confuses the Hell out of
>>anyone following you in traffic.
>>dave henrie
>
>what is the obsession of the US of using auto gears in cars. i'm not
>getting at the US too much here i just want to know why anyone would
>possibly prefer one over driving a car with a manual gearbox.
>
>the only time we use autos in europe is in dodgem cars isn't it ??
>
>Rich
I had a manual transmission car once. After trying to drive it in rush hour
stop-n-go traffic, the novelty wore off REAL quick.... Never again.... I don't
know why anyone would possibly prefer the manual...<g>
EldredP
<har...@bart.nl> writes:
>Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feels unnatural?
>I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a manual
>shifter.
>With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'll be
>left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time and there's
>no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about an automatic.
Even though you didn't ask me, I can give you an answer. People who drive
automatics are taught to use ONE foot. So, after years of not using the left
foot, it's not very co-ordinated... I, for one, can't figure it out...
Stephen Ferguson
Rich <r.en...@delta.telenordia.se> wrote in message
news:onsmfss72c46qhumf...@4ax.com...
> >the left foot to brake with an Automatic. If you are like most of us
> >lazy Americans, you will rest your left foot on the brake pedal...What
> >does this do? Wears out your brake pads and confuses the Hell out of
> >anyone following you in traffic.
> >dave henrie
>
> what is the obsession of the US of using auto gears in cars. i'm not
> getting at the US too much here i just want to know why anyone would
> possibly prefer one over driving a car with a manual gearbox.
>
> the only time we use autos in europe is in dodgem cars isn't it ??
>
A torque converter can handle the output of a rorting, snorting V8. Often
the manufacturers didn't have a manual tranny that could last more than a
year on the back end of their latest, greatest V8. Several European
manufacturers had to source an American automatic transmission when they
started using large V8s (this is 20 years ago, mind you). One example that
comes to mind is the Rover 3500. It ate manual gearboxes for breakfast, but
was perfectly happy with the automatic. Turbos can benefit from an
automatic, as the "slack" in the system allows the turbos to keep spooling
during shifts. The Buick Grand National was an amazing monster of a turbo
car - in a straight line - in the late 80s (and an even nastier derivative
was the GMC Typhoon, a "sport utility" that could out accelerate a Ferrari
and was a virtual equal to the Porsche 959 in the wet just because of its
gobs of turbo-powered torque, AWD and the auto-box).
Second is the nature of driving in North America. Either you are cruising a
motorway, or you are stuck in traffic on a motorway. I oversimplify, but
for the most part it's true. Growing up in Canada, almost any destination
involved travelling on the highway. In Switzerland, half my driving is
small, secondary roads. And after a few years of living through epic
traffic jams (queues, staus) on my daily commute in Toronto with a "sport"
clutch in my late, lamented GTi, I could see the possible advantage of an
autobox. I won't buy one, but I could see the use of it.
Stephen
m.seery
Havn't you ever seen them films where there are about 50 gear changes to the
mile as a car drives down a road at constant speed <G>
MS
"Rich" <r.en...@delta.telenordia.se> wrote in message
news:onsmfss72c46qhumf...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 20:15:04 GMT, Dave Henrie <hen...@home.com> wrote:
>
> > Plus any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone using
> >the left foot to brake with an Automatic. If you are like most of us
> >lazy Americans, you will rest your left foot on the brake pedal...What
> >does this do? Wears out your brake pads and confuses the Hell out of
> >anyone following you in traffic.
> >dave henrie
>
> what is the obsession of the US of using auto gears in cars. i'm not
> getting at the US too much here i just want to know why anyone would
> possibly prefer one over driving a car with a manual gearbox.
>
> the only time we use autos in europe is in dodgem cars isn't it ??
>
> Rich
Jan Hovius
> Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feels unnatural?
> I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a manual
> shifter.
> With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'll be
> left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time and there's
> no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about an automatic.
>
I read a lot of "heel and toeing", even think I see it happening in "Grand
Prix" (the frankenheimer movie) too but I don't really understand it. Could
somebody of you goeroes explain what this heel-and-toeing technique really is
and what it's advantage over "normal" driving is?
--
Jan Hovius
Jan Verschueren
pressure (as opposed to travel) sensitive brake and correctly positioned
pedals for less than $100, IMO. Probably would need support for a "true"
shifter as well (think Act Labs has one)... would be hard to time the blip
if you're not moving the gear lever by hand methinks.
I think right foot brake with auto clutch and blip works very well. Can't
get used to left foot braking anyway, but if the hardware were available
"off the shelf" I'd certainly give it a go.
Jan.
=---
Harjan Brand <har...@bart.nl> wrote in message
news:E0CK4.2342$ZN1....@Typhoon.bART.nl...
> Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almost
all
> of us use one very big cheat when driving the car. <Snip>
Jan Verschueren
in a fuel injected car (engine management works against you).
I've been trying it myself and I can sort of do it going up the box from 1st
to 4th (5th is out of the question, can't even shift that smoothly using the
clutch). Downshifts are unpractical as you need to be very precise to be
able to engage the gear, which leads to a lot of time lost searching for the
correct revs in neutral. Something you can do while coasting, but out of the
question when braking for a corner.
Jan.
=---
Tim Wheatley <honda...@SPAM.clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:yJPK4.14124$jk1.2...@nnrp4.clara.net...
> you can shift without the clutch in a road car too, it bolloxs the gearbox
> eventually though ;o)
>
>
> <snip>
Harjan Brand
the left foot for the clutch. So for most people it's almost impossible if
they try to learn with their left foot (ask my mother who tried it on a
deserted road, there are still two black lines). I did it from the first
moment I got my license and have no problem at all. I don't do it all the
time because when you have to brake to a halt I have to switch from left to
right foot in to be able to use the clutch. With an automatic you don't have
that problem.
"EldredP" <eld...@aol.comSPAM-OFF> wrote in message
news:20000418004020...@nso-cl.aol.com...
> In article <jRJK4.2416$ZN1....@Typhoon.bART.nl>, "Harjan Brand"
> <har...@bart.nl> writes:
>
> >Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feels
unnatural?
> >I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a manual
> >shifter.
> >With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'll be
> >left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time and
there's
> >no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about an automatic.
>
Harjan Brand
from 5 to 2 is 5-4-3-2). While you brake and go from 5-4 (and from 4-3 and
3-2) you're gearbox will be turning faster than your engine revs (when you
brake the revs go down because you don't give any throttle), with a non
syncro meshed gearbox it will be very hard to get the gear cogs to get into
each other. Furthermore you'll have excessive engine braking which isn't
good for the balance (this is an important reason for road users to use heel
and toeing).
So while braking with one part of your foot you apply quite some throttle
with the other to keep the revs up.
A nice way in a road car to try it at a slow speed is to brake and shift to
first gear at about 20k, without heel and toeing the shift will be very hard
(don't push through it) with some nice heel and toeing it will work just
fine.
In order to know the revs you won't to make just check the revs you're doing
in first gear at 20k, you'll need just a very bit more in order to make a
supersmooth downshift.
"Jan Hovius" <J.H.H...@el.utwente.nl> wrote in message
news:38FC25CB...@el.utwente.nl...
> Harjan Brand wrote:
>
> > Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feels
unnatural?
> > I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a manual
> > shifter.
> > With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'll
be
> > left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time and
there's
> > no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about an
automatic.
> >
>
Alan Orton
even maybe in the future a FF shifter where it may not go into gear or
even pop out on it's own during certain events. About the Brakes,
couldn't you use a hydraulic system from a bicycle and just let the
caliper squeeze against a piece of steel. You could disconnect the pedal
from the hydraulic system to calibrate the pots though. What I would
like to see is a reduction gear attached to the pot on my wheel so I
could turn the wheel a full revolution or even 2 full turns like a real
car. I just want it as close to real life as possible. It would be great
practice for real life at a much lower cost then renting a track or
burning gas all day.
Jan Verschueren
Alan Orton <aor...@home.com> wrote in message
news:38FC63F7...@home.com...
> Your right you would have to have a realistic shifter like the Act Labs,
> even maybe in the future a FF shifter where it may not go into gear or
> even pop out on it's own during certain events.
That would be absolutely amazing.
> About the Brakes, couldn't you use a hydraulic system from a bicycle
> and just let the caliper squeeze against a piece of steel. You could
> disconnect the pedal from the hydraulic system to calibrate the pots
> though.
No, in that case you're still travel sensitive (pot). I'd like to see a
system using some sort of pressure transducer which translates the amount
of force I excert on the pedal to a reading for the game. I.e. where I don't
have to move my leg to modulate the brakes and can position the pedal in a
way which allows me to blip the throttle without nescessarily letting up on
the brakes (as is the case using my Nascar Pro pedals).
Besides, you're talking home build again. Stop it already you guys. I'm an
electronics engineer... mechanical stuff spooks me. ;-)
> What I would like to see is a reduction gear attached to the pot on my
> wheel so I could turn the wheel a full revolution or even 2 full turns
> like a real car. I just want it as close to real life as possible.
> It would be great practice for real life at a much lower cost then
> renting a track or burning gas all day.
For sure, not mention the cost of repeatedly leaving the black stuff. ;-)
Jan.
=---
<Snip>
Remco Moedt
>Harjan Brand wrote:
>
>> Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feels unnatural?
>> I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a manual
>> shifter.
>> With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'll be
>> left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time and there's
>> no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about an automatic.
>>
>
>I read a lot of "heel and toeing", even think I see it happening in "Grand
>Prix" (the frankenheimer movie) too but I don't really understand it. Could
>somebody of you goeroes explain what this heel-and-toeing technique really is
>and what it's advantage over "normal" driving is?
In a non-synchronized gearbox you need to "blip" the throttle so
the gears have the same speed before you change the gear. If you
don't, you hear a scary noise.... <g> This is mostly done while
downshifting, and that's something you do when you're braking.
So, you need to press the brake, throttle and clutch at the same time,
but you only have 2 feet. In this case you use the left foot for
clutching, the right foot toe for braking, and the right foot heel for
the throttle.
Remco
David R. Ericson
are for. It's an art form. Big Mac in mouth, map on lap, left hand on wheel,
shift with right hand and left foot, map back in left hand, Big Mac in right
hand, left knee controls steering wheel, right foot on gas... throw in
Super-sized fries and Sprite and it starts to get even more interesting...
works beautifully for me! :-)
I just don't feel like I'm "driving" with an automatic. We have a 2000 Honda
Odyssey mini-van for the family that's an automatic, but for my beater car
going back and forth to work I couldn't live without my 1990 Toyota Camry V6
5-speed!
Being that I never left foot brake in my car (er... I need that for the
clutch), it took me a little while to get use to left foot braking in sim
racing. Now it's natural for me to left foot brake in racing sims. However,
when I try it in the mini-van I've found the pressure and sensitivity to be
quite different. Needless to say, the family finds it a bit painful too!
Dave Ericson
MomoBoy online
JDB Racing
Martyn Danby wrote:
>
> Ever drive over here in north america? Ever try readin a map, eatin a
> big mac and shiftin at the same time!!! +)
>
> Its called the grid system, on the highway they are straight and booring
> in most areas.
>
> Personally i prefer a stick, but hey no car at the moment, and the GPZ
> needs a few too many $$ ....
>
> Md
>
> Rich wrote:
> >
Alpha Omega
wrote:
>Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feels unnatural?
>I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a manual
>shifter.
>With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'll be
>left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time and there's
>no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about an automatic.
I'm not sure about the rest of the world, but over here (UK) you're
not allowed to use your left foot at all when taking your test in an
automatic vehicle. Right foot only. You must have been tested in a
manual car, but drive an automatic when it suits you right? Ever
actually been tested in an automatic?
I tried using my left foot to brake earlier on today. It was a
horrible feeling. There isn't even enough room for both my legs to sit
together to control both the pedals.
Of course, the best thing about using your right foot for the pedals
is that it leaves your left foot free to tab to music on the stereo.
:-)
Alpha Omega
<r.en...@delta.telenordia.se> wrote:
>what is the obsession of the US of using auto gears in cars. i'm not
>getting at the US too much here i just want to know why anyone would
>possibly prefer one over driving a car with a manual gearbox.
>
>the only time we use autos in europe is in dodgem cars isn't it ??
I'm the complete opposite. I can't understand why anybody would choose
to drive a manual car when you have the option to drive an automatic.
Why put yourself through the extra hassle of shifting gears and
popping the clutch? You don't gain much out of it.
Alpha Omega
wrote:
>I don't agree, I consider myself a very competent driver and anytime I drive
>a automatic I use my left foot. I'm used to left foot braking, so for me
>there's no problem in doing it.
>
>People who aren't used to braking with their left foot should not give it a
>try in their road car.
There must be a reason why left foot breaking is not allowed by the
highway code in an automatic car in this country. Otherwise, wouldn't
they leave it up to the driver to decide which foot he uses?
Dave Henrie
he had a hell of a time learning to drive a clutch stick combo. But he
finally got it figured out. This is one Yank who would never buy an
automatic....
Ever try to stop at an icy/snow-covered intersection on a cold morning
when the autochoke has the engine rpms sky high and the back wheels
spinning even with the brakes applied?
dave henrie
Stephen Ferguson
> Ever try to stop at an icy/snow-covered intersection on a cold morning
> when the autochoke has the engine rpms sky high and the back wheels
> spinning even with the brakes applied?
> dave henrie
>
learning on an automatic) is how to slap it into neutral without a second
thought. It was a natural reaction in the winter. Of course, I would never
volutarily go back to an automatic, but they're not soooo bad.
Stephen
kevingav
> Plus any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone using
> the left foot to brake with an Automatic. If you are like most of us
> lazy Americans, you will rest your left foot on the brake pedal...What
> does this do? Wears out your brake pads and confuses the Hell out of
> anyone following you in traffic.
> dave henrie
>
Nonesense. Any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone
resting their left foot on the brake pedal, or clutch in a manual.
The only competant argument for not left foot braking an auto is that a
driver might get confused when switching back and forth from a manual.
Left foot braking is perfectly ok with either form of tranny.
I left foot brake and clutchless shift my manual street car all the time. I
NEVER use my right foot on the brake in an automatic.
I use the deadpedal for my resting left foot. That's what it's there for.
kevingav
"Harjan Brand" <har...@bart.nl> wrote in message
news:E0CK4.2342$ZN1....@Typhoon.bART.nl...
> Us GPL fans are all very proud of our hunger for realism but yet almost
all
> hotlapper using the clutch, by doing that we can do left foot braking at
> almost every part of the track which is totally unrealistic. Even in
modern
> racing left foot braking isn't a common good, it's used in F1, Rally and
on
> ovals.
>
> So why do we do it? Because it's possible I presume. I would like Papy to
> offer a small patch which turns off the auto clutch and the auto blip so
we
> could do some real heel and toeing (or inside out as I do it). This would
> really make things far more realistic and the times as well probably. The
> only problem is that not many people have more that two pedals, but for
> those who have it would be great, don't you think?
>
> I would have rearrange my Logi brake pedal and F1 Sim throttle so I could
> heel and toe but that won't too much of a problem. I'll start using it
from
> now on.
>
> Oh and anyone wondering about the status of my little sim it's going very
> slowly but I'm right on it. In about 5 years time I'll have a rolling car.
>
> Harjan.
>
>
part of the drivetrain to fail, every use shortened its life and entailed
the risk of burning it our completely. The drivers, for the most part,
avoided it's use during a race, saving it only for when it was really
neccessary. This is still true today in many large Sedan classes, such as
Trans Am. Shifting clutchless is perfectly realistic. I do it in my street
Honda CRX all the time.
I might quote from Carrol Smith's Drive to Win:
"After you get good at shifting the Non-sycncro racing car you may notice
that your are not depressing the clutch all the way. The truth of the matter
is that most racing drivers don't - they just sort of jab at it with the
left foot. It is therefore a relatively small step for the "skilled" driver
to stop using the clutch at all........... The question of clutch use is a
matter of personal preference and confidence. My opinion is that if the
driver is skilled enough and confident enought to learn how to do it well,
he (or she) will have a performance advantage- at least in short races."
Among modern drivers there are those who disagree, with *modern* cars. Danny
Sullivan uses the clutch, but says we's never double clutched in his life.
Bryan Herta always uses the clutch and double clutches, everytime. But Bryan
dosn't drive cars where the clutch is the weak link.
Left foot braking is another realism story, the only problem being the
steering shaft passing directly through the drivers feet made it difficult
to move the left foot over to the brake pedal. There WERE cars and drivers
who put the brake pedal on the left and the clutch in the middle however.
Pre war this was even common.
琦rtijn
> I left foot brake and clutchless shift my manual street car all the time.
I
> NEVER use my right foot on the brake in an automatic.
You WHAT??? You shift in a manual transmission car without using the
clutch?
I bet you only drive rental cars
Marty
Marty
Marty
And how would anyone know what foot you are using to brake?
Marty
Martyn Danby
swinging into the city one day only to have the clutch seize up on him,
due to lack of use!
Md
Dave Powell
for once rolling in 2nd and a quiet road to never use th clutch and use left
foot braking and just rev match...After some practice @ the expense of the
cars owner i could drive any distance without the use of the clutch
atall..once you got the nack its easy..I could even get it into first with a
very hard blip..You can just feel the moment its right on the gear stick and
with a light touch it just pops in...this means you dont have to use the
clutch so have one foot for brake and one for thrittle like a Kart...But BE
WARNED you forget and stab the brake like a clutch for a while as your not
used to the left foot braking...very nasty when you do that want to make
sure you got a seatbelt on :)) or your teeth and the wheel will meet...
I tried this in a 67 Triumph Spitfire but the box was a bit old and very
difficult to rev match but it could be done..Ive tried this in a few modern
cars A golf and Citroen Xantia..all of these were easy... but old boxs are
harder...Makes a long drive on an A-Road much nicer as your clutch foot its
beng used on a heavy clutch..Once you got the nack you need never sue the
clutch once rolling ever again :)
DP
Remco Moedt wrote in message <38fc3e8f...@newsreader.euronet.nl>...
>Jan Hovius <J.H.H...@el.utwente.nl> wrote:
>
>>Harjan Brand wrote:
>>
>>> Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feels
unnatural?
>>> I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a manual
>>> shifter.
>>> With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'll
be
>>> left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time and
there's
>>> no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about an
automatic.
>>>
>>
Dave Powell
:)..its just giving it a good rev ( a rev counter help then when you know
your car, you just bring the rev to where you know they'd be in the lower
gear...Its the feeling through the gear stick that tells you, just rev it
high) then as the revs are diclining you start to put pressure on the stick
and if you rev to 5500-6000 between changes then as the revs dicline you
will hit the point of revs and gears are matched and then the stick will
just pop into gear..it so easy..Just Rev high and be ready straight away
after youve reved on the stick applying slight pressure..The box does the
change for you..It aint hard..You just gotta make sure youve reved high
enough and are ready on the stick before the rev fall...Obviously as your
reving use left foot braking as your not using the clutch at all..Then your
right foot has much more control on the throttle than if your heel and
toeing...This technique does away with the need to heel and toe at all
anyway..
Make sure you find a quiet road to practice :)..left foot brakings a bitch
to start..your left foot is like your left hand..useless till you get it
calibrated :)
DP
Jan Verschueren wrote in message ...
Dave Powell
road aint gonna chose an automatic...bloody awful :)..i drove one one day
used the stick like a manual all day...1st 2nd 3rd zzzzzzzzz terrible, i
enjoy my driving and a automatic i might as well take the bus :)...Autos
stink and are for old men and people without the confidence to drive a
manual shift <G> Each to there own of course but autos......
DP
Alpha Omega wrote in message <951pfss58p0uf5cms...@4ax.com>...
>On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:28:46 +0200, Rich
><r.en...@delta.telenordia.se> wrote:
>
>>what is the obsession of the US of using auto gears in cars. i'm not
>>getting at the US too much here i just want to know why anyone would
>>possibly prefer one over driving a car with a manual gearbox.
>>
>>the only time we use autos in europe is in dodgem cars isn't it ??
>
>I'm the complete opposite. I can't understand why anybody would choose
>to drive a manual car when you have the option to drive an automatic.
>
>Why put yourself through the extra hassle of shifting gears and
>popping the clutch? You don't gain much out of it.
>
>
Richard Walker
Alpha Omega <alpha...@dial.pipex.com> wrote:
> I'm not sure about the rest of the world, but over here (UK) you're not
> allowed to use your left foot at all when taking your test in an
> automatic vehicle. Right foot only.
Exactly, this is what I was thinking, and I can't see why anyone would want
to brake with their left foot!
Even in an automatic, you should *only* use your right foot.
Is anyone here left foot braking *and* keeping on some power with their
right foot?! I've also tried that, but it was a bit dangerous!
> I tried using my left foot to brake earlier on today. It was a horrible
> feeling. There isn't even enough room for both my legs to sit together to
> control both the pedals.
I've tried it in two different manual cars. You tend to press the brake
*far* too hard! :-) Oh, and of course, I can't down-shift because I can't
get to the clutch!
--
Richard.
"You think you lost your love, when I saw her yesterday."
KAP
for manual transmission . . . "well aaaa, that's going to be tough to find
in this model . . . you know it will kill the resale value." For the first
time in my life I'm driving without a clutch . . . damn I wish I held on to
the TR4 now :(.
KP
m.seery
Gone are the days of double declutching as well for the most part<G>
MS
"琦rtijn" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:01bfa961$4f41d6e0$ed1040d4@martijn...
m.seery
driving technique. It is there to deal with road proceedure, ethics and
laws. The Physical driving aspects of driving a car, (inclusive of
requirements for passing the driving test), are covered in "The Driving
Manual", by the Driving Standards Agency and published by HMSO. This is one
of the reference Bibles that instructors use.
As far as right foot braking goes, it has this to say.
<Quoted text> When driving along, it is safer to use the right foot only for
both brake and accelerator pedals, just as you do with vehicles with a
manual gearbox.
This devolops anticipation by encouraging
1. The early release of the gas pedal, and
2. Early and progressive braking. It is also true for a majority of drivers
<and remember we are talking about learners here, not experienced drivers,
Kartists, racers or sim drivers. MS> that there is a much higher degree of
sensivity and control with the use of the right foot.
It cuts out
1. The instability and wear and tear brought about by braking against
acceleration
< In my experience I have seen people in a blind panic literally floor both
pedals in emergency stop situations. Not to be recommended in something like
a V12 Jag. MS>
2. The need to learn a different method if you change from driving an
automatic to a manual or vice versa </Quoted text>
Mark Seery
Department of Transport ADI
BTW: Left foot breaking is not allowed because you cannot drive with a
plaster cast on it <G>
Sorry: Couldn't resist.
"Alpha Omega" <alpha...@dial.pipex.com> wrote in message
news:tb1pfsc2m8vuofs4j...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:17:06 GMT, "Harjan Brand" <har...@bart.nl>
> wrote:
>
> >I don't agree, I consider myself a very competent driver and anytime I
drive
> >a automatic I use my left foot. I'm used to left foot braking, so for me
> >there's no problem in doing it.
> >
> >People who aren't used to braking with their left foot should not give it
a
> >try in their road car.
>
> There must be a reason why left foot breaking is not allowed by the
> highway code in an automatic car in this country. Otherwise, wouldn't
> they leave it up to the driver to decide which foot he uses?
>
>
m.seery
performance or supercar.
The whole purpose of heel - toe is to match the engine revs to roadspeed for
any given gear when changing down.
For instance if your car does 3000 revs in 4th gear ar 30 mph and 3500 revs
at the same speed in third you will get engine braking as the engine and
flywheel, a heavy mass in road cars is accelerated. This is not a big deal
with your average 70-120 BHP family hack. Larger, more powerful engines will
have bigger differences in gear ratios and will also have a huge amount of
engine braking. In the old F1 cars, you might have been pitched off the road
as the rear wheels became unstable or even lost all grip entirely.
Heel and toe is used to prevent this problem when under heavy braking and
changing down. When braking from a higher speed to the aforementioned 30mph,
you would use both pedals at the same time with the right foot .
Some people used to use the heel of the foot on one pedal and the toe on the
other(Hence heeling and toeing). It is also common to use the brake as
normal but use the side of the foot to blip the gas. In each case, this can
only work well if the pedals are set correctly for height and spacing.
The technique goes like this. xx mph --Brake----> 35mph----Whilst still
braking, blip the throttle to match engine revs for lower
gear----->30mph---->change down.
The other reason racers do this is to prevent destruction of gearboxes.
MS
"Jan Hovius" <J.H.H...@el.utwente.nl> wrote in message
news:38FC25CB...@el.utwente.nl...
> Harjan Brand wrote:
>
> > Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feels
unnatural?
> > I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a manual
> > shifter.
> > With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'll
be
> > left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time and
there's
> > no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about an
automatic.
> >
>
> I read a lot of "heel and toeing", even think I see it happening in "Grand
> Prix" (the frankenheimer movie) too but I don't really understand it.
Could
> somebody of you goeroes explain what this heel-and-toeing technique really
is
> and what it's advantage over "normal" driving is?
>
>
>
> --
> Jan Hovius
>
>
>
m.seery
> I'll give it a try, in a racing car you go down the box under braking (so
> from 5 to 2 is 5-4-3-2). While you brake and go from 5-4 (and from 4-3 and
> 3-2) you're gearbox will be turning faster than your engine revs (when you
> brake the revs go down because you don't give any throttle), with a non
> syncro meshed gearbox it will be very hard to get the gear cogs to get
into
> each other. Furthermore you'll have excessive engine braking which isn't
> good for the balance (this is an important reason for road users to use
heel
> and toeing).
I have to add here that his is true in a lot of racing situations but does
not apply to road cars. There is no need whatsoever to go through the box
sequentially. In this day and age, block changing is taught. If you was
going from 5th to 2nd, you would simply brake brake brake and change
directly into the lower gear. There is no advantage to be gained from engine
braking in this day and age and going through the box is as old fashioned as
double declutching. Gone are the days when we had brake fade from
inefficient, overheating drum brakes all round. Any modern car will
outperform the grip afforded by tyres. In other words, they will lock up
well before you reach the maximum retarding ability of the brakes. Further
to this, by constantly clutching and declutching, you stand a much greater
chance of destabilising the car or locking up. We also have to consider that
95% of the road driving fraternity are pretty average in terms of ability
and heeling and toeing is probably beyond the capabilities of most. I'd
hardly say that it was an essential part of general driving techniques
> So while braking with one part of your foot you apply quite some throttle
> with the other to keep the revs up.
>
> A nice way in a road car to try it at a slow speed is to brake and shift
to
> first gear at about 20k, without heel and toeing the shift will be very
hard
> (don't push through it) with some nice heel and toeing it will work just
> fine.
> In order to know the revs you won't to make just check the revs you're
doing
> in first gear at 20k, you'll need just a very bit more in order to make a
> supersmooth downshift.
m.seery
194,000 miles in it. In all this time I only ever had one clutch chance <G>
I'd not recommend trying to go into first with the engine running and the
car stationery though lol.
Of course, if it was a get yourself home job with a broken cable etc, it's
simple to put the thing in gear and start rolling on the battery.
MS
"Dave Powell" <davesi...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:fF4L4.14981$Kc.3...@nnrp3.clara.net...
> >>Harjan Brand wrote:
> >>
> >>> Explain me, you drive an automatic car so left foot braking feels
> unnatural?
> >>> I think left foot braking is far easier in an automatic than in a
manual
> >>> shifter.
> >>> With a manual gearbox you constantly have to decide whether not you'll
> be
> >>> left braking, with an automatic box you can do it all the time and
> there's
> >>> no need for heel and toeing. For me it;s the only pro about an
> automatic.
> >>>
> >>
> >>I read a lot of "heel and toeing", even think I see it happening in
"Grand
> >>Prix" (the frankenheimer movie) too but I don't really understand it.
> Could
> >>somebody of you goeroes explain what this heel-and-toeing technique
really
> is
> >>and what it's advantage over "normal" driving is?
> >
m.seery
"> I'm not sure about the rest of the world, but over here (UK) you're
> not allowed to use your left foot at all when taking your test in an
> manual car, but drive an automatic when it suits you right? Ever
> actually been tested in an automatic?
You can take an auto test but it precludes you from driving a manual. Think
about all the disabled people who cannot do so anyway. If you do the normal
test, you can drive anything.
MS
m.seery
I'll show ya how the master does it when you come over <G>
MS
JS
No prob at all.
Seems that I don't tend to steer with the brake pedal in real life :-(
Jens
On Mon, 17 Apr 2000 22:17:06 GMT, "Harjan Brand" <har...@bart.nl> wrote:
>I don't agree, I consider myself a very competent driver and anytime I drive
>a automatic I use my left foot. I'm used to left foot braking, so for me
>there's no problem in doing it.
>
>People who aren't used to braking with their left foot should not give it a
>try in their road car.
>
>
---------------------------------------------
TSchumac...@pd.jaring.my
Remove "NOSPAM" before using my email-address
JensSchumi homepage at http://members.xoom.com/JensSchu/
Racing simulation, esp. GPL
Logitech Wingman FF optimization
Classic cars, esp. Morris Minor
Radio controlled airplanes
Martyn Danby
day (of course) his dad worked at a farm equipment dealer... well
needless to say that thing had a hellish set of springs in the clutch or
something when he was done. I am not a big guy, but i had to have the
seatbelt extra tight when shiftin or i'd come off the seat +) lol
Md
EldredP wrote:
>
> In article <onsmfss72c46qhumf...@4ax.com>, Rich
> <r.en...@delta.telenordia.se> writes:
>
> >> Plus any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone using
> >>the left foot to brake with an Automatic. If you are like most of us
> >>lazy Americans, you will rest your left foot on the brake pedal...What
> >>does this do? Wears out your brake pads and confuses the Hell out of
> >>anyone following you in traffic.
> >>dave henrie
> >
> >what is the obsession of the US of using auto gears in cars. i'm not
> >getting at the US too much here i just want to know why anyone would
> >possibly prefer one over driving a car with a manual gearbox.
> >
> >the only time we use autos in europe is in dodgem cars isn't it ??
> >
> >Rich
>
> I had a manual transmission car once. After trying to drive it in rush hour
> stop-n-go traffic, the novelty wore off REAL quick.... Never again.... I don't
> know why anyone would possibly prefer the manual...<g>
>
> Eldred
> --
> Tiger Stadium R.I.P. 1912-1999
> Own Grand Prix Legends? Goto http://gpl.gamestats.com/vroc
>
> Never argue with an idiot. He brings you down to his level, then beats you
> with experience...
> Remove SPAM-OFF to reply.
Martyn Danby
Jus remember my dad givin me stick shift lessons, and he would show me
how they had to do it in the "old" days (gee guess even i can say that
now...)
Md
Martyn Danby
That was my first stick. (North american 83 HO model) Unfortunately it
was the family car, and i bein all of 17 took the transaxle out of it
within the first year. I did love that car tho, had many a good race
down the old 'B' line in it.
Md
Stephen Ferguson
m.seery <m.s...@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:q07L4.1356$GK5....@news2-win.server.ntlworld.com...
> Actually, it's quite easy and painless with the right box and technique.
> Gone are the days of double declutching as well for the most part<G>
>
> MS
It's hell on the snychros though. A lot of people think they are doing a
whiz-bang job of clutchless shifting, but a modern synchromesh can mask a
lot of bad technique. Mostly they are doing a "bang" job of clutchless
shifting, and the reality check comes about a year later when they are given
the bill for replacing two little 30 buck synchros, with the addition of all
that labour to drop the transmission on a (more likely than not) FWD car.
Stephen
Stephen Ferguson
> My last car recently died after doing clutchless changes. I had covered
> 194,000 miles in it. In all this time I only ever had one clutch chance
<G>
Well done! My record was 250,000km on one clutch.
> I'd not recommend trying to go into first with the engine running and the
> car stationery though lol.
> Of course, if it was a get yourself home job with a broken cable etc, it's
> simple to put the thing in gear and start rolling on the battery.
>
I used exactly that technique to drive 8 hours home from a north-country
canoe trip with a broken cable. It got some funny looks at the traffic
lights as this silent car with a canoe on top suddenly went bucking down the
road then zoomed away.
Stephen
Stephen Ferguson
kevingav <kevi...@gateway.net> wrote in message
news:8di49i$55p$1...@news.laserlink.net...
> With the clutch materials used at the time the clutch was the most likely
> part of the drivetrain to fail, every use shortened its life and entailed
> the risk of burning it our completely. The drivers, for the most part,
> avoided it's use during a race, saving it only for when it was really
> neccessary. This is still true today in many large Sedan classes, such as
> Trans Am. Shifting clutchless is perfectly realistic. I do it in my street
> Honda CRX all the time.
And Schumacher hosed the clutch at the start on his F1 debut with Jordan.
Still happens, even in the space age world of F1.
>
> Left foot braking is another realism story, the only problem being the
> steering shaft passing directly through the drivers feet made it difficult
> to move the left foot over to the brake pedal. There WERE cars and drivers
> who put the brake pedal on the left and the clutch in the middle however.
> Pre war this was even common.
>
I was just reading about some monster in Classic & Sports Cars (a Maserati
4L (??)) with the pedals arranged with clutch on the left, brake on the
right and accelerator in the middle. The driver said it took a lot of
concentration to drive it :-)
Stephen
Stephen Ferguson
> difficult to rev match but it could be done..Ive tried this in a few
modern
> cars A golf and Citroen Xantia..all of these were easy... but old boxs
are
> harder...Makes a long drive on an A-Road much nicer as your clutch foot
its
> beng used on a heavy clutch..Once you got the nack you need never sue the
> clutch once rolling ever again :)
>
There's the clue... the synchros are making up for any inadequacies in
technique, whereas the Spitfire tranny was the true test of your skill.
Guess what the modern transmission is going to look like after a few
thousand km if you are relying on the synchros telling you when it's good to
go for the next gear?
Stephen
Stephen Ferguson
> gear...Its the feeling through the gear stick that tells you, just rev it
> high) then as the revs are diclining you start to put pressure on the
stick
> and if you rev to 5500-6000 between changes then as the revs dicline you
> will hit the point of revs and gears are matched and then the stick will
> just pop into gear..it so easy..Just Rev high and be ready straight away
> after youve reved on the stick applying slight pressure..The box does the
> change for you..It aint hard..You just gotta make sure youve reved high
Sorry to sound like a broken record, but this is not a proper technique.
You are using the synchros as a crutch for bad technique, and you're going
to crunch them soon enough. I recommend everyone who wants to try this go
get an automotive repair manual and read up on what the synchros do. Then
go to your local transmission shop and ask for the cost of parts and labour
to replace the 2nd and 3rd gear synchros.
Stephen
Jan Hovius
Thanks for your thorough explanation on "heel&toeing". Since I'm not a
car-technician and have difficulties imagining how the combination
engine-gearbox really works it still is a bit too technical but I do
understand the principle now.
I also know now that it's not something I have to focus on to improve my
performance in GPL (bugger, .... thought I had found the reason I was so
slooow).
Once again thank you all in this thread.
--
Jan Hovius
Gregor Veble
>
> The technique goes like this. xx mph --Brake----> 35mph----Whilst still
> braking,
at this point the engine should be disconnected from the tyres; use
clutch (preferable on a regular car) or put the gearlever in neutral.
Matthew B.Knutsen
>
> I was just reading about some monster in Classic & Sports Cars (a Maserati
> 4L (??)) with the pedals arranged with clutch on the left, brake on the
> right and accelerator in the middle. The driver said it took a lot of
> concentration to drive it :-)
Enter the real-old "heel and toe".:-D
Matt
EldredP
writes:
>"Dave Henrie" <hen...@home.com> wrote in message
>news:38FB7043...@home.com...
>> Plus any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone using
>> the left foot to brake with an Automatic. If you are like most of us
>> lazy Americans, you will rest your left foot on the brake pedal...What
>> does this do? Wears out your brake pads and confuses the Hell out of
>> anyone following you in traffic.
>> dave henrie
>>
>
>Nonesense. Any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone
>resting their left foot on the brake pedal, or clutch in a manual.
>
>The only competant argument for not left foot braking an auto is that a
>driver might get confused when switching back and forth from a manual.
>
>Left foot braking is perfectly ok with either form of tranny.
>
>I left foot brake and clutchless shift my manual street car all the time. I
>NEVER use my right foot on the brake in an automatic.
>
>I use the deadpedal for my resting left foot. That's what it's there for.
Deadpedal? Never heard of it...
EldredP
<ferg...@bluewin.NOSPAM.ch> writes:
>Dave Henrie <hen...@home.com> wrote in message
>news:38FC86E7...@home.com...
>> Ever try to stop at an icy/snow-covered intersection on a cold morning
>> when the autochoke has the engine rpms sky high and the back wheels
>> spinning even with the brakes applied?
>> dave henrie
>>
>Uh... first thing you learn in a decent driving school in Canada (if you are
>learning on an automatic) is how to slap it into neutral without a second
>thought. It was a natural reaction in the winter. Of course, I would never
>volutarily go back to an automatic, but they're not soooo bad.
>
>Stephen
Hmm...I was never taught that(Detroit, MI). I just started doing it out of
(my) necessity(front wheel drive). Until just now, I had never heard of anyone
ELSE doing it...
Eldred
Stephen Ferguson
EldredP <eld...@aol.comSPAM-OFF> wrote in message
news:20000419081834...@nso-ch.aol.com...
> In article <8di1s3$7nhgr$1...@fu-berlin.de>, "Stephen Ferguson"
> <ferg...@bluewin.NOSPAM.ch> writes:
>
> >Dave Henrie <hen...@home.com> wrote in message
> >news:38FC86E7...@home.com...
> >> Ever try to stop at an icy/snow-covered intersection on a cold
morning
> >> when the autochoke has the engine rpms sky high and the back wheels
> >> spinning even with the brakes applied?
> >> dave henrie
> >>
> >Uh... first thing you learn in a decent driving school in Canada (if you
are
> >learning on an automatic) is how to slap it into neutral without a second
> >thought. It was a natural reaction in the winter. Of course, I would
never
> >volutarily go back to an automatic, but they're not soooo bad.
> >
> >Stephen
>
> Hmm...I was never taught that(Detroit, MI). I just started doing it out
of
> (my) necessity(front wheel drive). Until just now, I had never heard of
anyone
> ELSE doing it...
>
> Eldred
Notice I said *decent* driving school :-) The one I went to in '84 took us
out to a big, empty lot and let us practice various skid recovery
techniques. It wasn't, however, a specialized performance school; it was
the nationwide "Young Drivers of Canada" school, which supplements its
program with an annual rally, where equal points are given for on-the-road
defensive drivng technique and parking-lot autocross-style car handling
skills. A bit better than the "parallel park and you're done" curriculum at
a lot of North American schools.
Stephen
Tim Vanhee
> engine braking. In the old F1 cars, you might have been pitched off the
road
> as the rear wheels became unstable or even lost all grip entirely.
Call '99 cars old? Do you remember Monza 99? Why did Mika cry? He shifted
down to 1st instead of 2nd and spun off.
m.seery
clutches, and not to cars that have pinball flippers underneath the steering
wheel !
MS
"Tim Vanhee" <tim.v...@pandora.be> wrote in message
news:H1iL4.113908$l35.2...@afrodite.telenet-ops.be...
JTW62074
gear is to prevent gearbox damage or accidental missed downshifts, but to
prevent any additional torque transfer through the driveline. When you don't
blip the throttle to get the engine to the right rpm, the car lurches, right?
We've all done that. Shift from a high speed into first gear. Even while
braking, the car jolts to a little lower speed abruptly.
What's happening is a matter of inertia. The engine is turning slow, the
tranny is turning fast. Drop the clutch when you're in that lower gear and the
engine speeds up very quickly to match the transmission. Remember Isaac
Newton? Action/Reaction? When the engine speeds up quickly at clutch
engagement, the driveline slows down (negative torque, just like a brake).
Whatever amount of torque it takes to speed up the engine during that quick
engagement time is exactly how much torque (but in the opposite direction) will
be shot through the transmission. If your rears are at their braking/traction
limit, you just added a bit more braking force unintentionally and 'round ya
go!
The heel-toe downshift prevents this from happening. If the clutch is let
out with the input tranny shaft and engine speeds matched, there's no reaction
between the two. Now the only thing slowing you down is that perfectly
graceful foot on the magic "woah!" pedal, connected to brakes that can lock the
wheels all by themselves hopefully, without the aid of engine braking!
Todd
Dave Powell
were less advanced back then....But still spitfire boxs and totally
clutchless changes are hard, and the gears in a spitfire box do have
synchros my friend (even first on my specially built close ratio )...I tried
these changes this on a nice 80,000miles gearbox in a herald..and it was
much much much easier than the 5,000mile gearbox in my spitfire...Spitbox
are very very tight when new and those spitfire gears make very very bad
noises when you crunch em :)) Im sure i could got the changes down to a fine
art but not with my new gearbox i paid a fortune for...
also i imagine that a classic race box use in a racing car would be rebuilt
after each race as when use in this manner they dont last 80,000miles do
they..even in a racers hands :)
DP
Stephen Ferguson wrote in message <8djp57$7t27b$1...@fu-berlin.de>...
>
>Dave Powell <davesi...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
Dave Powell
using this technique even for a great racer is bad on the box..And in my
escort i did about 20,000miles doing delivery runs and the box was still
sweet...True when waiting for the stick to tell you when its right is
waiting on the synchros but after time you dont need to wait as you now the
revs and timing..but intially learning the technique wating for the right
moment on the snchyros helped..but after a while you just know the system
and get it straight in....
But if you drive your cars hard maybe a box (sncyros) every 10,000miles aint
to bad..Hell the motor in my spitfire needed new bigends ever
15,000miles..so mabye this could be added to the rountine maintence....:)
DP
Stephen Ferguson wrote in message <8djp9i$7ueeq$1...@fu-berlin.de>...
>
>Dave Powell <davesi...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
EldredP
writes:
>Ick.. Escort...
>
>That was my first stick. (North american 83 HO model) Unfortunately it
>was the family car, and i bein all of 17 took the transaxle out of it
>within the first year. I did love that car tho, had many a good race
>down the old 'B' line in it.
>
>Md
>
1986 Ford Escort. I had never driven a manual before I bought it. I learned
when I picked up the car. The salesman taught me how to drive it in a parking
lot, and I drove it home. Only stalled it once...<g> It wasn't hard to LEARN,
it just got to be a hassle in rush hour traffic, or if I needed to drive with
just my left hand - and use my right hand for 'other' purposes. I had a
girlfriend at the time...<vbg>
Martyn Danby
tho usually the stick jus got in the way!!
mebbe thats why the north americans liked auto's and even 3 on the tree,
so they could have a big bench seat...
my thots
Md
Stephen Ferguson
> Well more like the spitfire box was brand new and very tight...and my
skills
> were less advanced back then....But still spitfire boxs and totally
> clutchless changes are hard, and the gears in a spitfire box do have
> synchros my friend (even first on my specially built close ratio )...I
tried
The British had discovered synchromesh as long ago as 1967? :-) You would
never know it with a MGB we had... crunch crunch crunch... where's ç*%$!
first gear gone?
> also i imagine that a classic race box use in a racing car would be
rebuilt
> after each race as when use in this manner they dont last 80,000miles do
> they..even in a racers hands :)
The straight-cut gears help a lot, but it's true they are rebuilt.
Stephen
Stephen Ferguson
> But if you drive your cars hard maybe a box (sncyros) every 10,000miles
aint
> to bad..Hell the motor in my spitfire needed new bigends ever
> 15,000miles..so mabye this could be added to the rountine maintence....:)
Ouch! What did they use for bearings? Stilton cheese? I got 300,000km out
of the top and bottom end of a bulletproof Toyota twin-cam with frequent
trips to the lofty range of the rev counter. The bottom end was based on
their supercharged and formula atlantic motor. Likewise, the bottom end of
my old GTi went 250,000 (we won't talk about the shitty head, but it gave me
an excuse to put in bigger valves). Again, the bottom end was designed for
diesel duty, so very stout.
Stephen
John Wallace
>>
>> I was just reading about some monster in Classic & Sports Cars (a Maserati
>> 4L (??)) with the pedals arranged with clutch on the left, brake on the
>> right and accelerator in the middle. The driver said it took a lot of
>> concentration to drive it :-)
It did.
My mother told me about an old car her father owned many years ago
which was configured like that. She borrowed it without permission to
take to a dance, and when turning back into the driveway tried to
press the "brake" to negotiate the turn and accelerated through his
garage - he said he didn't know whether to be angry or cry with
laughter at her shock.
Cheers!
John
Alpha Omega
<eri...@micro.ti.com> wrote:
>Yes... Pittsburgh, PA to be a bit more precise. I figured that's what my knees
>are for. It's an art form. Big Mac in mouth, map on lap, left hand on wheel,
>shift with right hand and left foot, map back in left hand, Big Mac in right
>hand, left knee controls steering wheel, right foot on gas... throw in
>Super-sized fries and Sprite and it starts to get even more interesting...
>works beautifully for me! :-)
I wouldn't like to be in your shoes if there's an accident and the
police and insurance companies learn what you were doing while you
were driving.
>I just don't feel like I'm "driving" with an automatic. We have a 2000 Honda
>Odyssey mini-van for the family that's an automatic, but for my beater car
>going back and forth to work I couldn't live without my 1990 Toyota Camry V6
>5-speed!
I can understand that feeling. I feel the same way about motorcycles.
How anybody can enjoy riding an automatic motorcycle (or scooter) is
beyond me. It removes the fun from the bike. But, a car is an entirely
different subject. The first car I drove was a manual, and I thought
it couldn't get any better, until I tried an automatic and realised it
was much more fun.
Alpha Omega
E-Mail: alpha...@dial.pipex.com
ICQ: 70300233
Alpha Omega
> he had a hell of a time learning to drive a clutch stick combo. But he
> finally got it figured out. This is one Yank who would never buy an
> automatic....
I still see no benefits of a manual car over an automatic.
I'm not surprised your son found it difficult to drive a manual
transmission
vehicle. Why would he want to, after making the smart decision and
driving
an automatic before hand?
> Ever try to stop at an icy/snow-covered intersection on a cold morning
> when the autochoke has the engine rpms sky high and the back wheels
> spinning even with the brakes applied?
No, because I'm a good driver. I know that if it's snowing, I
shouldn't have
the RPM's high at all.
A manual car will give you more control over the engine, because
you're in
direct contact with it. You have to select when to shift gear and use
the
clutch to do so. However, all that gearing shifting and clutch
pressing
takes away from your overall control of the vehicle, because you're
having
to use one less hand on the wheel and you're having to concentrate on
more
than just the driving. An automatic gearbox removes the need for it.
Alpha Omega
<davesi...@clara.co.uk> wrote:
>Because anyone with a interested in using a car for a good belt on a quiet
>road aint gonna chose an automatic...bloody awful :)..i drove one one day
>used the stick like a manual all day...1st 2nd 3rd zzzzzzzzz terrible, i
>enjoy my driving and a automatic i might as well take the bus :)...Autos
>stink and are for old men and people without the confidence to drive a
>manual shift <G> Each to there own of course but autos......
I think not!
I'm 18 and I drive an automatic. I first started in a manual and
enjoyed it thoroughly and had no problems controlling it, but after
trying an automatic I soon learnt how much more exciting it was and
now I only drive an auto.
But, I can sympathise with your need to drive a manual transmission
vehicle. I've been racing motorcycles since I was 13 and only stopped
doing it a short while ago, but I still can not understand how or why
those other motorcyclists on the road who drive automatic bikes
(scooter) can do it. It removes all the enjoyment from riding.
But, cars and motorcycles are an entirely different ball game.
Alpha Omega
<nospamyouscums...@fix.net> wrote:
>What country is that?
>
>And how would anyone know what foot you are using to brake?
The UK.
And as long as your driving instructor, or driving examiner was awake,
they'd know which foot you were using to break with. If they caught
you using the left foot, you'd fail, which is why you're not allowed
to use it.
Alpha Omega
wrote:
>Nonesense. Any competant instructor should rap the knuckles of anyone
>resting their left foot on the brake pedal, or clutch in a manual.
We're not supposed to rest our foot against the brake. It's supposed
to sit on the floor, on the left of the break, where it can relaxe and
make fun of the right foot, which is doing all the work. :-)
>The only competant argument for not left foot braking an auto is that a
>driver might get confused when switching back and forth from a manual.
Nope. The best argument for right foot breaking is that it's much
easier to use and is safer. Pretty good reasons, if you ask me.
>I left foot brake and clutchless shift my manual street car all the time. I
>NEVER use my right foot on the brake in an automatic.
If you had taken your automatic driving test in this country (UK),
you'd have learnt that left foot breaking is wrong. You can not use it
under test conditions.
Alpha Omega
wrote:
>You can take an auto test but it precludes you from driving a manual. Think
>about all the disabled people who cannot do so anyway. If you do the normal
>test, you can drive anything.
That's right, BUT if you take a manual test and then use an automatic,
you've not had a chance to be taught the correct way to drive an
automatic.
Brett C. Cammack
<ferg...@bluewin.NOSPAM.ch> wrote:
>
>Ouch! What did they use for bearings? Stilton cheese?
It certainly approximated it. Best damned bearings I ever found for
my Spridgets were from Beck-Arnley and were called "Glacier
Tin-Aluminum". The embeddable substrate was a soft aluminum alloy
instead of soft lead. Made a huge difference in infant mortality and
long-term durability.
Regards,
Brett C. Cammack
That's Racing! Motorsports
Pompano Beach, FL
EldredP
<ferg...@bluewin.NOSPAM.ch> writes:
Ok, I'll go along with that. The driving schools here DO leave a lot to be
desired. I still see WAY too many stupid drivers...
David R. Ericson
Alpha Omega wrote:
>
> A manual car will give you more control over the engine, because
> you're in
> direct contact with it. You have to select when to shift gear and use
> the
> clutch to do so. However, all that gearing shifting and clutch
> pressing
> takes away from your overall control of the vehicle, because you're
> having
> to use one less hand on the wheel and you're having to concentrate on
> more
> than just the driving. An automatic gearbox removes the need for it.
>
I disagree with loss of overall control by only using one hand on the wheel.
Even when I drive our "automatic" mini-van, I find myself only using one hand
on the wheel. After 18+ years of driving manuals using one hand on the wheel,
I've found that driving with 2 hands on the wheel just feels unnatural now. I
have much better control of the wheel with one hand than with 2. I even only
use one hand on the wheel for racing sims/games. I'll sometimes try 2 hands
and I just feel like I'm always trying to overcorrect because my right hand
wants to do more than it should... go back to one (left) hand on the wheel and
I'm more precise and less constant jerking of the wheel.
IMHO you have more total control of the car with a manual over an automatic.
My personal preference is to be in control. This is why I always have to be
the driver, not a passenger. I was going crazy when my wife drove me home from
the hospital after out-patient wrist surgery recently. She just doesn't get
the fact that situational awareness (always knowing where every other car is
around you) is crucial to driving, and enhances the experience... :-)
Try this once... learn to drive a manual correctly, then take an American
muscle car (oh... say a Cobra Mustang) out for a test drive. First try one
with an automatic, then one with a manual... then report back which was a
better "driving" experience... ;-)
Dave
kevingav
"ľartijn" <a@b.c> wrote in message
news:01bfa961$4f41d6e0$ed1040d4@martijn...
>
> > I left foot brake and clutchless shift my manual street car all the
time.
> I
> > NEVER use my right foot on the brake in an automatic.
>
> clutch?
> I bet you only drive rental cars
>
>
You tell me where I can rent manual tranny cars in US and they'll have a
happy customer for life.
My Honda CRX currently has 165,000 miles on the clock, on the original
tranny *and clutch.* No problemo.
EldredP
<alpha...@dial.pipex.com> writes:
>I can understand that feeling. I feel the same way about motorcycles.
>How anybody can enjoy riding an automatic motorcycle (or scooter) is
>beyond me. It removes the fun from the bike. But, a car is an entirely
>different subject. The first car I drove was a manual, and I thought
>it couldn't get any better, until I tried an automatic and realised it
>was much more fun.
>
I've never ridden a motorcycle before, so I have no idea how difficult it would
be to learn. As least I don't have to worry about falling out of a CAR...<g>
Chuck Kandler
>
> "ľartijn" <a@b.c> wrote in message
> news:01bfa961$4f41d6e0$ed1040d4@martijn...
> >
> > > I left foot brake and clutchless shift my manual street car all the
> time.
> > I
> > > NEVER use my right foot on the brake in an automatic.
> >
> > You WHAT??? You shift in a manual transmission car without using the
> > clutch?
> > I bet you only drive rental cars
> >
> >
>
> You tell me where I can rent manual tranny cars in US and they'll have a
> happy customer for life.
Not at Budget, that's for sure.
--
Chuck Kandler #70
K&S Racing
http://www.fortunecity.com/silverstone/thepits/195
Competitor in the TopGear MGPRS2 league at:
http://topgear.dhs.org/ Come on & join the fun!
They'll call you names
And spit in your face,
But legends never die. --Gene Simmons
Dave Powell
as 64...not on frist though..but dont quote me on that i know a 66spitfire
had them but not on first till 72 or something...
DP
Stephen Ferguson wrote in message <8dmg6f$82ssi$1...@fu-berlin.de>...
>
>Dave Powell <davesi...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
David Erb
Loved the way that big ol' tractor motor pulled though so there wasn't much
need to be downshifting into first except at stop signs.
David
"Dave Powell" <davesi...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
news:rVJL4.971$rR2.1...@nnrp3.clara.net...
Dave Powell
car..and need the gears to have full control..in auto you have no control
useless as i do when driving them you use the auto as a manual :)..you go to
over take someything and i drops you up a cog rright along side and your sat
there waiting for damn thing to pick up..very dangerous
If you plod along autos great, but for harder driving they suck and you lose
total control over your vehicle...The only time id use an auto is motorways
work..on A-Road runs they are bloody awful
:)
DP
Alpha Omega wrote in message ...
>> Gimme a stick anyday. My son learned to drive an auto in school and
>> he had a hell of a time learning to drive a clutch stick combo. But he
>> finally got it figured out. This is one Yank who would never buy an
>> automatic....
>
>I still see no benefits of a manual car over an automatic.
>
>I'm not surprised your son found it difficult to drive a manual
>transmission
>vehicle. Why would he want to, after making the smart decision and
>driving
>an automatic before hand?
>
>> Ever try to stop at an icy/snow-covered intersection on a cold morning
>> when the autochoke has the engine rpms sky high and the back wheels
>> spinning even with the brakes applied?
>
>No, because I'm a good driver. I know that if it's snowing, I
>shouldn't have
>the RPM's high at all.
>
>A manual car will give you more control over the engine, because
>you're in
>direct contact with it. You have to select when to shift gear and use
>the
>clutch to do so. However, all that gearing shifting and clutch
>pressing
>takes away from your overall control of the vehicle, because you're
>having
>to use one less hand on the wheel and you're having to concentrate on
>more
>than just the driving. An automatic gearbox removes the need for it.
>
>
Dave Powell
highish reving they would start knocking after maybe 60,000..but with trips
to redline even change they would start gently knocking at around 15,000 ro
20,000miles...but spitfires are a big mechano set..I did a engine out and
bearing change in 2 hours once (with the aid of a crane)..as with the
spitfire the huge bonnet just bolts off in 10mins leaving a very exposed and
open engine bay with no body panels just chassis :))...And the start engine
swap record i set with a friend, just exchanging one motor for a rebuilt and
ready lump was 1 3/4hours from driving into the garage to driving out..We
were very pround :)..
With my other spits i used the earlier Mk3 1300 motor these are simply
bulletproof..as they use a shorter stoke and less stress on bottom ends than
the 1500..Also the 1300 had just as much grunt with a few simply mods and
reved to 6500 not 5500 like 1500's...The Mk3 was the best motor for tuning
and hard driving...1500 were just weak and crap..a touring motor not one for
hard use..Unless you like bottom end bearing changes..:))
DP
Stephen Ferguson wrote in message <8dmgd0$82ao1$1...@fu-berlin.de>...
>
>Dave Powell <davesi...@clara.co.uk> wrote in message
Dave Powell
manual and auto in respect to control the vechicle doesnt know there arse
from thier elbow....auto's relieve the driver of total control in many many
many road situations....I think they are dangerous especially in terms on
having less gears, less go and a box that has a mind of it own..
DP
David R. Ericson wrote in message <38FF3315...@micro.ti.com>...
>
>Alpha Omega wrote:
>>
>> A manual car will give you more control over the engine, because
>> you're in
>> direct contact with it. You have to select when to shift gear and use
>> the
>> clutch to do so. However, all that gearing shifting and clutch
>> pressing
>> takes away from your overall control of the vehicle, because you're
>> having
>> to use one less hand on the wheel and you're having to concentrate on
>> more
>> than just the driving. An automatic gearbox removes the need for it.
>>
>
>I disagree with loss of overall control by only using one hand on the
wheel.
>Even when I drive our "automatic" mini-van, I find myself only using one
hand
>on the wheel. After 18+ years of driving manuals using one hand on the
wheel,
>I've found that driving with 2 hands on the wheel just feels unnatural now.
I
>have much better control of the wheel with one hand than with 2. I even
only
>use one hand on the wheel for racing sims/games. I'll sometimes try 2
hands
>and I just feel like I'm always trying to overcorrect because my right hand
>wants to do more than it should... go back to one (left) hand on the wheel
and