paint question
Vansfeet
worse by using that gs-27 stuff on the hood . I went to the roof with regular
compound and was able to get some of the oxidation off. Now the problem is that
the hood seems like it is baked on sort of(like a layer above the actual
oxidation), you can't flake off the oxidation like you could before, what do i
do now. am i using the right word when i say oxidation? i believe it is the
clear coat that is flaking, i really need to fix this cause it is a terrible
eyesore on an other wise beautiful car. plus it is my wifes daily driver and i
have to hear it from her everyday. and going to get a paintjob is out of the
question, we are saving for a house. thanx for the replies in advance i should
mention i live in jersey seeing that climate is different for all.
Lauren
Enamel is the best (IMO), but it's expensive too. Enamel will wear off
before it completely oxidizes... ask me how I know....
--
1970 Squareback FI
1972 Super Beetle
1974 Beetle Autostick
1974 Convertible Sunbug
1981 Rabbit Diesel LS 4dr
1981 Rabbit Diesel L 2dr
1981 Rabbit Diesel L 4dr
1987 Cabriolet
1987 Cabriolet (parts car)
19?? Green Beetle Tattoo on my arm :)
http://www.vwfamily.cjb.net
"Vansfeet" <vans...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020326013609...@mb-df.aol.com...
Gareth
...only if cheap materials are used or the painter doesn't know what the hell
they are doing...rule of thumb sherwin willams is for houses...about the only
problem a base clear paint job suffers from is slightly more brittleness then a
concept or a single stage shoot. IE chips a little easier. Delamination will
not occur if quality materials are applied properly...and the depth of shine of
a good clear is unparalled. Once again I stress quality. Good clear goes for
around $210 a gallon with reducer...PPG...up to around $250-285 for
dupont...total paint materials to paint a beetle work out to about $600 using
quality materials...if your painter is cutting costs on materials to make his
work more affordable this could explain your dislike of base clear...or if you
want a car to look more original...or...you just picked a bad day to give up
heroin...
...Gareth
rob...@ns.hotmail.com
It still looks wet, it is so glossy. $210/gallon, or about $55 per quart..
Reducer and hardener another $50 ea per quart. 2 quarts of paint will make
1 gallon of sprayable material.
I can't see a bug using more than a couple of quarts.
"Lauren" <tsajzin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:10171478...@news2.bigplanet.com...
John Henry
technology. Urethanes are regarded as the best paints today by virtually everybody
in the autobody biz, single or two stage.
Also, flex additives can also be added to clear coats to make them less brittle.
TonkaDiesl
>Well, when you get a new paint job, get a single stage... Clear coats suck.
Amen to that.........tony
TonkaDiesl
>.only if cheap materials are used or the painter doesn't know what the hell
>they are doing...r
Ive used the best and SOONER or later its going to go bad Clear coat that is.
Now if you just have a car that JUST SITS in a garage and bring it out for show
you can get by with clearcoat
.>Once again I stress quality.
Let me ask you this. 10 yrs from now being out in the weather is it still
going to be on there. Don't hardly think so. That is just a example. I have
hardly seen a clear that sits out in the weather make it 4years.
For daily drivers and a paint job that gets chips in the paint from driving
in heavy traffic or some Little ass goes speeding by you from the other
direction, Yes clear is not for this type of treatment and you are better off
with just a single stage enamal and if done right Looks like it has clearcoat
on it. You have more paint on the car instead of paint shot on with no hardner
then a thin coat of clear that reflects to cover up the super thin coat of
basecoat so the shops can make more profit.
Oh yes I have not one good thing to say about clearcoat.
I see some of the buses that are sent to so called professionals for
warranty on clear that wont make it past 2yrs, Guess what 2 yrs later some ole
shit. How ever buses that I have put Acrilic enamal on stays on for years.
Except for that synthetic shit which I tried once on one bus that was supposed
to be yellow and is now almost white. Buses that I shot 10yrs ago with acrilic
enamal still look good. (school buses). tony
TonkaDiesl
>Also, to Lauren's post: enamels suck, are old and outdated
>technology. Urethanes are regarded as the best paints today by virtually
>everybody
>in the autobody biz, single or two stage.
Hay John Conally, You better get that sorry paint job off that 64 I sold
you.
Hate to see you take best of show or best paint with that enamel........tony
John Henry
TonkaDiesl wrote:
> >From: keldarath
> >.only if cheap materials are used or the painter doesn't know what the hell
> >they are doing...r
>
> Ive used the best and SOONER or later its going to go bad Clear coat that is.
> Now if you just have a car that JUST SITS in a garage and bring it out for show
> you can get by with clearcoat
>
> .>Once again I stress quality.
> Let me ask you this. 10 yrs from now being out in the weather is it still
> going to be on there. Don't hardly think so. That is just a example. I have
> hardly seen a clear that sits out in the weather make it 4years.
BMW has been using base/clear at the factory for 6+ years now. Spies Hecker
urethanes. I've seen some daily driver beemers (in harsh NEw England) that still
look damn good.
Chris Perdue
>
> Ive used the best and SOONER or later its going to go bad Clear coat that
>is.
>Now if you just have a car that JUST SITS in a garage and bring it out for
>show
>you can get by with clearcoat
>
>.>Once again I stress quality.
> Let me ask you this. 10 yrs from now being out in the weather is it still
>going to be on there. Don't hardly think so. That is just a example. I have
i got me a great example of how good a quality b/c paint job holds up sitting
in my back yard right now.....nine years ago my 74 bug was painted with dupont
chroma base....base coat and clearcoat.....the car has never seen a car cover
much less a garage and still to this day shines like new money and has only one
spot that is peeling the clear coat.....the one spot that is peeling was from a
"touch up" i did about five years ago....i used the original basecoat i had
left over and used a rattle can clear from duplicolor....the original
paint(nine years old....soon to be ten years old in july) is still
beautiful....the poor car hasn't even seen a sponge and soap for about five
years....
Chris Perdue
http://hometown.aol.com/bugninva/MAINPAGE.html
68 bug, almost roadworthy
to reply take your PANTS off
Scott H.
> I've seen some daily driver beemers (in harsh NEw England) that still
> look damn good.
>
I hope that refers to motorcycles and not cars .... I've seen these kind of
guys, http://www.airheads.org/ , get all riled up when they hear someone
refer to Bimmers as Beemers ... lol.
Look at all the links on their links page that have BMW in the website url
or show the BMW logo or images on the sites ... I wonder if BMW AG goes
after them like VWoA does VW enthusiasts?
That `Airheads' logo is cool, btw.
--
Scott
'72 Super
TonkaDiesl
>sitting
>in my back yard right now.....nine years ago my 74 bug was painted with
>dupont
>chroma base....base coat and clearcoat.....the car has never seen a car cover
Where do ya live? Alaska where the sun don't shine? :^) Well the only
proof that I have seen that clearcoats are good is on this site. I usally don't
get My feathers ruffled on here or dissagree much with anyone on Ramva. BUT I
have never seen any Living proof that clearcoats hold up. I've been painting
now for 25 years shooting Lacquer to Basecoat clearcoats on my own cars, Plus
numbers of others for other people. Yes I can get a Nice looking paint job and
pay 1200 dollars for paint and materials which I have done on some of my cars (
pintos to Mercedes) but for daily drivers No way will it hold up in MY opinion.
I sold my Mercedes after 3 years and its probly still looking good to this day
but the cost was (beyond this world).
Now what were talking is someone is going to have to pay someone to paint
there car and it's a daily driver. Well if you have $4500 for someone to paint
your daily driver and you want clearcoat on it and the right materials and the
proper skilled person to do it by George go for it. Not many paint shops will
come close to a bug because of the amount of work it takes to do the job right.
I still to this day have never seen a clearcoat hold up for over 4 years and
I will NEVER be convenced of that.
Now this is my opinion not ment to degrade anyone. Ok? thanks,
Dang give me a beer...tony
TonkaDiesl
> I've seen some daily driver beemers (in harsh NEw England) that still
>look damn good.
John thats because they stay Perserved under snow Nine months out of the
year.
:^) tony
Gareth
>going to be on there. Don't hardly think so. That is just a example. I have
>hardly seen a clear that sits out in the weather make it 4years.
> For daily drivers and a paint job that gets chips in the paint from
>driving
>in heavy traffic or some Little ass goes speeding by you from the other
>direction, Yes clear is not for this type of treatment and you are better off
>with just a single stage enamal and if done right Looks like it has clearcoat
>on it. You have more paint on the car instead of paint shot on with no
>hardner
>then a thin coat of clear that reflects to cover up the super thin coat of
>basecoat so the shops can make more profit.
> Oh yes I have not one good thing to say about clearcoat.
> I see some of the buses that are sent to so called professionals for
>warranty on clear that wont make it past 2yrs, Guess what 2 yrs later some
>ole
>shit. How ever buses that I have put Acrilic enamal on stays on for years.
>Except for that synthetic shit which I tried once on one bus that was
>supposed
>to be yellow and is now almost white. Buses that I shot 10yrs ago with
>acrilic
>enamal still look good. (school buses). tony
...one word..
Horseshit!!
...you are a certified paint technician for what company?
...your work is fully guaranteed by whom?
...all major paint manufacturers will stand behind their products that we use
in our shop...there is a wide difference between an amature painter and a
factory certified paint tech...application errors will show up sooner or
later..NO SINGLE STAGE LOOKS LIKE A HIGH QUALITY BASE CLEAR PAINT JOB...they
can look good...damn good...but you can't get the depth....guess what...if you
can, explain it to the pro's and they will stop screwing around with inferior
three stage paint jobs...
...Gareth
trav...@spaminatorhotmail.com
>
>Horseshit!!
Quit beatin' around the bush, Gary. How do you really feel?
Travis (Shaggie)
'63 VW Camo Baja Beetle
Remove SPAMINATOR from email address to reply
http://www.employees.org/~travist/vw/Bug_Adventures.html
TonkaDiesl
>Quit beatin' around the bush, Gary. How do you really feel?
>
Dang Travis, Pass me a beer will ya..
TonkaDiesl
>...one word..
>
>Horseshit!!
>...Gareth
Gareth, Let me ask you this. Did you paint your own car with spray cans?
Gareth
>
...which car which time? I have painted one with an o-cedar sponge mop..with
black stove paint and put white jolly rogers on the doors and trunklid after
cutting the roof off and welding the doors shut and throwing away the
hood...and mounting driving lights on top of the fenders after smashing out
both headlights and the grill...was a 76 nova winter beater with a toggle
switch and push button for ignition...that actually survived to spring...then
was transformed.and yes I did paint my 66 like herbie for halloween with spray
paint...and left it like that for a whole year before replacing the hood
decklid all four fenders passenger floor...and front apron...stripping it to
bare metal and painting with dupont paint...factory Java green....did use
single stage only to match the factory sheen (base clear is too shiny to look
original)...your point?
...Gareth
Chris Perdue
>
> Where do ya live? Alaska where the sun don't shine? :^) Well the only
>proof that I have seen that clearcoats are good is on this site. I usally
>don't
>get My feathers ruffled on here or dissagree much with anyone on Ramva
>BUT I
>have never seen any Living proof that clearcoats hold up.
i live in virginia....in the mountains...we get 90+ summer weather and normal
winter temps of around 35-40 highs.....we do get colder(alot colder) but it is
in spells and not a normal pattern....we get snow and ice.....not large
quantities of snow but some...more ice than snow....the car really does still
shine like a fresh paint job(cept for the hood like i said i did a quicky touch
up for gravel chips....and of course the passenger side has some shiny dents
from an unfortunate incident with the front bumper of my jeep...) you can see
some distant pics of it in the background of the pics of my 68 on my pathetic
site....i am still amazed at how well it has held up and i even pointed it out
to my wife a while back how the paint still looked so nice after so long(ten
years this summer)...i will use dupont products again, probably the chroma base
that was used on my bug...my father in law did the spraying....he will also be
commissioned to do any paint work i have done.....i do believe quality is the
name of the game, and by that i mean quality and not price....we used some
pretty expensive paint on my wifes bmw about three or four years ago and the
clear is peeling around a few gravel chips on the hood.....so price doesn't
alway mean better quality...although almost ten years ago when the dupont
chroma base was just put on the market i paid 300 bucks for a gallon of paint
and basemaker....the clear to go with it was another 100 or so for i believe a
quart with hardener....
trav...@spaminatorhotmail.com
::passes Tony a beer:: *burp*
TonkaDiesl
What is my point? Point proven.
Gareth
>
>
::grin::...glad we cleared that all up...
....Gareth
TonkaDiesl
>i live in virginia..
good
>weather and normal
>winter temps of around 35-40
good
> but it is
>in spells and not a normal pattern....we get snow and ice
good
>.the car really does still
>shine like a fresh paint job(cept for the hood
Probly when wet
> i even pointed it out
>to my wife a while back how the paint still looked so nice after so long(ten
>years this summer).
thats good
>..i do believe quality is the
>name of the game,
good
>.we used some
>pretty expensive paint on my wifes bmw about three or four years ago and the
>clear is peeling around a few gravel chips on the hood..
Yep that figures>i paid 300 bucks for a gallon of paint
>and basemaker....the clear to go with it was another 100 or so
I used to love to brag how much I paid for paint when I was young also.
that is my point also.....
Travis pass me another....tony
TonkaDiesl
>
>....Gareth
cool
Lauren
is, most people put on a VERY thin clear coat....especially the factory....
--
1970 Squareback FI
1972 Super Beetle
1974 Beetle Autostick
1974 Convertible Sunbug
1981 Rabbit Diesel LS 4dr
1981 Rabbit Diesel L 2dr
1981 Rabbit Diesel L 4dr
1987 Cabriolet
1987 Cabriolet (parts car)
19?? Green Beetle Tattoo on my arm :)
http://www.vwfamily.cjb.net
"TonkaDiesl" <tonka...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020326180859...@mb-fi.aol.com...
Lauren
on restorations an expensive cars did not like to use base coat clear
coat... base/clear coat is like bottom of the line... the only place I know
that does this is Sunray... but they got a body man that does top notch work
and I would go to him any day even though I don't particularly care for base
coat clear coat... he puts it on thick enough that it actually lasts and
looks good. I still say that enamel is the best... the three (maybe four, I
scrubbed the squareback with a tire brush, but it doesn't have a clear coat
so it is probably still good paint) cars I have with enamel paint will still
shine if I wax them (I haven't waxed them in a year or more... or washed
them for that matter... but they would still shine if I did so... and if
they didnt have dents I would have no problem with the paint... the rabbit
has the original factory paint which is 20+ years old... and it still looks
like new... as does the other enamel coated rabbit... the one with base coat
clear coat looks like crap... half the clear coat has peeled off....)
--
1970 Squareback FI
1972 Super Beetle
1974 Beetle Autostick
1974 Convertible Sunbug
1981 Rabbit Diesel LS 4dr
1981 Rabbit Diesel L 2dr
1981 Rabbit Diesel L 4dr
1987 Cabriolet
1987 Cabriolet (parts car)
19?? Green Beetle Tattoo on my arm :)
http://www.vwfamily.cjb.net
"Gareth" <keld...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020326181829...@mb-mg.aol.com...
TonkaDiesl
>If you put a thick enough clear coat on it could last a long time... problem
>is, most people put on a VERY thin clear coat....especially the factory....
>
dang someone that knows what the hell there talking about...A WOMAN'' love it.
thanks from a fellow person that knows how to paint..........tony
TonkaDiesl
base coat/clear coat and may I say very expensive paint jobs. You get the
slightest little pit from gravel hitting it and moisture gets under it, it
freezes and starts pulling away from the base coat. With the enamel-(GOOD
Enamel Paint), if it gets a pit or chip you can touch it up, smooth it out and
it is as good as new. If you use a good carnauba wax, soft wax, on the enamel
it will look good for years. Once the clear coat sarts peeling on base/clear
coat-it is a new and very expensive all over paint job again. Personally I
have nothing against waxing a car.!!!!!!!! Seems to me a few of you out there
do.
Look guys and gals, all of this is preference. Some of us like the base/clear
and some of us like the enamel. It is a personal choice and nothing to get
upset over.
no burp..............Brenda
Lauren
is the best LOL! I just want the best for my Veedubs.... that's why they sit
around waiting for me to have time and money..... I still prefer enamel...
guess just cause no one knows how to do base/clear right... cept Sunray....
Hey I learn from the best!
--
1970 Squareback FI
1972 Super Beetle
1974 Beetle Autostick
1974 Convertible Sunbug
1981 Rabbit Diesel LS 4dr
1981 Rabbit Diesel L 2dr
1981 Rabbit Diesel L 4dr
1987 Cabriolet
1987 Cabriolet (parts car)
19?? Green Beetle Tattoo on my arm :)
http://www.vwfamily.cjb.net
"TonkaDiesl" <tonka...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020326210634...@mb-fi.aol.com...
Gareth
>slightest little pit from gravel hitting it and moisture gets under it, it
>freezes and starts pulling away from the base coat.
..if it can seperate I once again must maintain there was an application
error...do you pay attention to your flash times?
>With the enamel-(GOOD
>Enamel Paint), if it gets a pit or chip you can touch it up, smooth it out
>and
>it is as good as new
...now THIS is true...it can be done with base clear as well if you know what
you are doing....the benefits of a base clear are its a tougher finish...is
more resistant to UV damage and will keep its shine much much longer...with
little maintenence.
>Look guys and gals, all of this is preference.
...true.
>Some of us like the base/clear
>and some of us like the enamel. It is a personal choice and nothing to get
>upset over.
...not getting upset at all...just putting facts on the table...I work at a
restoration shop that paints VW's and streetrods...when I see incorrect
information I feel compelled to reply...if I started giving "expert" opinions
on school bus maintenance I'm sure Tony would do likewise....
...Gareth (sipping a cabernet relaxing)
Gareth
>on restorations an expensive cars did not like to use base coat clear
>coat...
...they might not have been skilled enough to handle it...just cause you hack
together an expensive car doesn't make you skilled..
>base/clear coat is like bottom of the line... t
...please...ok tell me how to get a candied or pearl paint job out of a single
stage?? we will be doing a custom mixed one off color blue pearl paint job
tomorrow or the next day..it will be 4 stages...white sealer...then white
basemaker...then pearl layer...finally clear...duplicate it with a single stage
and beers are on me...
>the only place I know
>that does this is Sunray... but they got a body man that does top notch work
...maybe thats why he uses base clear eh?
...Gareth
TonkaDiesl
Just having a little fun with you here. Tony likes to really get into this
stuff so thought I would put my 2 cents worth in. I really do prefer the
enamel paint tho.
No Burp...............Brenda
TonkaDiesl
>.if I started giving "expert" opinions
>on school bus maintenance I'm sure Tony would do likewise....
>
Gareth
::grin::...ain't got none tonight Tony...I cooked Pasta so I have Cabernet
instead....some for the cook...some fer da sauce...wanna glass?
...Gareth
TonkaDiesl
>...some for the cook...some fer da sauce...wanna glass?
>
is the glass clear coated? :^)
Now Im fricking burping..tony
rob...@ns.hotmail.com
the stuff from English Color here in DFW. Money was not an object, and all
the experts at the store said a quality urethane is more durable than a 2
stage when applied properly... My c-5 corvette was ordered with a optional
three stage paint job. "Magnetic Metallic Red" Base, tinted clear, then
clear. Both cars sparkle, I fear the touch up on any rock chips on the
vette will be MUCH more difficult to touch up. The bug can get buffed
easily.
"Lauren" <tsajzin...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:10171947...@news1.bigplanet.com...
TonkaDiesl
> I fear the touch up on any rock chips on the
>vette will be MUCH more difficult to touch up.
I would fear the same thing Rob..Just wait for the time that your following
a truck and they hit one of those high spots on a bridge, (you know the kind
where all your hub-caps go flying off), and all that dirt and chunks of mud and
gravel come flying right towards your car and your doing about 60 and there is
nothing you can do about it.
God I love those moments....tony
Lauren
--
1970 Squareback FI
1972 Super Beetle
1974 Beetle Autostick
1974 Convertible Sunbug
1981 Rabbit Diesel LS 4dr
1981 Rabbit Diesel L 2dr
1981 Rabbit Diesel L 4dr
1987 Cabriolet
1987 Cabriolet (parts car)
19?? Green Beetle Tattoo on my arm :)
http://www.vwfamily.cjb.net
> ...they might not have been skilled enough to handle it...just cause you
hack
> together an expensive car doesn't make you skilled..
All about preference... if you can do a single stage...
> ...please...ok tell me how to get a candied or pearl paint job out of a
single
> stage?? we will be doing a custom mixed one off color blue pearl paint
job
> tomorrow or the next day..it will be 4 stages...white sealer...then white
> basemaker...then pearl layer...finally clear...duplicate it with a single
stage
> and beers are on me...
You can't and I don't care cause I don't like them :)
> ...maybe thats why he uses base clear eh?
cause you don't have to get it perfect on the base coat? more room for
error? cause it's cheaper? he won't do enamel cause it's more expensive and
a one shot deal...
Chris Perdue
>on restorations an expensive cars did not like to use base coat clear
>coat... base/clear coat is like bottom of the line...
well lauren the popularity of b/c paintjobs are a recent thing from the
factory...so you won't find many restorations that use them because most cars
old enough to be "restored" came from the factory with a single stage paint job
also due to the fact that b/c paintjobs have just taken off in popularity
in the past ten years there are alot of people that are either allergic to
change or just have never become good at using the system....the main problem
with a base/clear paint job is that it may take the painter twice as long to
paint the vehicle...with a single stage you shoot two or three coats with the
proper flash time between coats and you are done if you are a good painter and
there is no color sanding needed(daily driver type vehicles)....with a
base/clear paint job the painter must do two or three coats of clear and then
two coats of clear....so the paint time is about twice as long with b/c as
single stage....this means that it may actually take a full day to paint a
vehicle instead of three or four hours(including the flash times).... so it
isn't profitable for some shops to do the b/c because of their price cutting to
match the competition....you can't spend twice as long on a paint job for the
same money and alot of people don't want to pay for a paint job....my father in
law ran his own body shop for years(till bypass surgery made it impossible to
run a one man show), and you would be shocked at how many people thought 1000
bucks for a good quality single stage paint job by a top notch bodyman was way
too much.....1200 for a b/c.....those are cheap for the area and really cheap
when you take into consideration the craftmanship that a good bodyman puts into
the job....
Gareth
...the clear will bring out more flaws then it hides by far.....
Gareth
> more room for
>error?
...easier to make errors....harder to corrext them..
>cause it's cheaper?
..not even close...base clear is much more expensive a process then single
stage
>he won't do enamel cause it's more expensive and
>a one shot deal...
...put your boots on folks its getting deep in here...
....Gareth
Chris Perdue
>I used to love to brag how much I paid for paint when I was young also.
> that is my point also.....
> Travis pass me another....tony
>
>
>
>
>
>
you know i usually value your opinion and enjoy your posts but this one seems
to hit a nerve with you....you asked about weather and such and i gave you the
info you wanted....all except an agreement with you....not bragging on what i
spent and im not that young....i could buy some cheap ass enamel paint an
painta car that would still show a hint of a color in five years, like the
enamel paint on my 68 that wouldn't shine if you rubbed baby oil on it....i
have a almost ten year old paint job that is still slick as glass and if you
are so fucking sure it isn't come on over and check it out...if not shut the
fuck up and get over it...no need to keep it going....you can tell me i am
wrong all you want and you can tell me that it will only shine when wet all you
want but i will look out the window and see how shiny it is....i can walk up to
it and use it as a mirror....just because you botched a couple paintjobs dont'
make the paint system bad....
SIDEWINDER
news:20020326221348...@mb-bk.aol.com...
it cost me 2500$ in the late 80's to have one done
the paint looked great till last year...15 years of daily driving isn't bad
for a paint job
think I'll stick to enamel from now on though
jim
Chris Perdue
>
>the paint looked great till last year...15 years of daily driving isn't bad
>for a paint job
>
not possible jim....no way, no how, never...a basecoat/clear coat will only
last for four years, and then they won't shine even when wet...so i hear...let
me go look out my window real quick....
okay im back....mine is almost ten years old and for the life of me i can't
figure out why it still shines....hell maybe my eyes are just glassy....who
knows....i been told it don't shine....
jabobia
make both one-stage and b/c and pearl for both kinds?...hopefully this
doesnt start another war under this topic =)
-james
"Vansfeet" <vans...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020326013609...@mb-df.aol.com...
> I have a real bad oxidation problem on my hood and roof, now i kind of
made it
> worse by using that gs-27 stuff on the hood . I went to the roof with
regular
> compound and was able to get some of the oxidation off. Now the problem is
that
> the hood seems like it is baked on sort of(like a layer above the actual
> oxidation), you can't flake off the oxidation like you could before, what
do i
> do now. am i using the right word when i say oxidation? i believe it is
the
> clear coat that is flaking, i really need to fix this cause it is a
terrible
> eyesore on an other wise beautiful car. plus it is my wifes daily driver
and i
> have to hear it from her everyday. and going to get a paintjob is out of
the
> question, we are saving for a house. thanx for the replies in advance i
should
> mention i live in jersey seeing that climate is different for all.
Lauren
you know how much that would cost here? a couple G's....
BTW I thought MOST car companies started going to b/c in 81... I know VW
did... but then again who restores an 80's car besides me?
--
1970 Squareback FI
1972 Super Beetle
1974 Beetle Autostick
1974 Convertible Sunbug
1981 Rabbit Diesel LS 4dr
1981 Rabbit Diesel L 2dr
1981 Rabbit Diesel L 4dr
1987 Cabriolet
1987 Cabriolet (parts car)
19?? Green Beetle Tattoo on my arm :)
http://www.vwfamily.cjb.net
"Chris Perdue" <bugn...@aol.comPANTS> wrote in message
news:20020326221348...@mb-bk.aol.com...
Gareth
there are acrylic eurathane enamels...think of the eurathane
bushings...eurathane is hard. Enamels being softer will have more flow. Most
modern enamels are eurathane base...unless of course they are acrylic based.
Acrylic enamels are cheaper and softer....harder and more expensive end of the
scale is the eurathane line. One note...paint technology changes every
year...with a drive towards longevity as well as manitaining EPA
compliance...what you sprayed ten years ago may look like the same can...but it
is a vastly different product. (confuzzled ya yet?)
...Gareth
trav...@spaminatorhotmail.com
>Look guys and gals, all of this is preference. Some of us like the base/clear
>and some of us like the enamel. It is a personal choice and nothing to get
>upset over.
>
>no burp..............Brenda
Actually I prefer the rattle can stuff. Very cheap and very easy to
touch up. I could repaint my whole car including the masking and
stuff in about 4 hours and spend about $35-$40 to do it. Before
anyone falls all over themselves telling me how crappy my paint job
is, let me remind you that I take my car offroad just about every week
and it would be really STUPID to spend a lot of money on a paint job
for my car, because it would just get scratched up anyway. I agree
with Brenda. Personal choice. Like my parents used to say to me:
If you don't like it, then lump it. :-P
No, it doesn't make a ton of sense, but it's a much more polite way of
saying "If you don't like it, then tough sh*t." HAHAHA! Only 2 more
days until the weekend. Everybody lighten up or I'll sick ANT on you.
Somebody please pass me the Jim Beam. *burp*
Travis (Shaggie)
'63 VW Camo Baja Beetle
Remove SPAMINATOR from email address to reply
http://www.employees.org/~travist/vw/Bug_Adventures.html
jabobia
saying urethane sucks if theyre the same?...so the best would be urethane
enamel right?...they make one-step and b/c/pearl in this type too
correct?...yes im very confuzzled =)
-james
"Gareth" <keld...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020327083913...@mb-fq.aol.com...
Gareth
differentiate very well... here let me re-post a pretty decent article that was
posted to the Vintagevw mailing list a little while back....might help...
Every Spring the thread always turns to Paint, since
we then to favor shiny things, What does it take to do
overall paint jobs. First, The 181 never had a high
gloss finish from the factory. The factory paint was
semi-gloss and this was a marketing effort to lower the
overall maintence and provide coverage for small
scratches with a off-road car. It requires some nerve to
go to the effort of a entire repaint just to use a
semi-gloss paint. Military vehicles were also a semi
paint, but it is called semi-flat, not lusterless like the
US mil spec paints. Now, let's get some definitions
established.
Types of paint:
Two broad categories: Lacquers and Enamels
Lacquers (Originally nitrocellulose based, now acrylic
based):
Were first used on cars beginning about 1924, and
enamels came into use
several years later.
Lacquers dry through evaporation (of their solvents),
and therefore remain
more susceptible to damage by solvents. In the 1950's
when acrylic lacquers
became available they became very popular as they were
easy to shoot and
repair and, to this day, some still consider it the
paint of choice for
custom work, though this is do more to myth/legend
than any real advantage.
Because as much as 85% of the lacquer shot goes into
the atmosphere as VOCs
(volatile organic compounds), they are now illegal in
most states with air
quality standards, and very inefficient in terms of
material transfer (paint
shot Vs paint actually applied to the car). Lacquers
are very fragile. Even
after months of drying, bird droppings, acid rain, and
gasoline eat into the
paint.
Lacquer also dulls as it dries (as the solvents
evaporate), and that's why
you hear about classic Ferraris (and other classics)
taking
months to paint. Most pros doing custom work with
lacquer will wait two or
more months before buffing the paint to make sure all
the solvents have
evaporated. Even with the most meticulous care,
lacquers can be very
difficult to maintain. It's not for the daily driver.
Enamels: "One-Part" and "Two-Part"
Basically, enamels cure to some extent through
evaporation, but they also
cure by cross-linking of their molecules.
"One-Part" enamels (alkyd, or acrylic based):
Are fairly inexpensive, dry glossy so they don't
require the hours of
rubbing/buffing that lacquers do, but some
(particularly the "bargain"
brands) don't last long, and can loose their gloss
after only a few months
of exposure to the sun.
Non-Clear coated "Two-"Part" (catalyzed) enamels
(epoxy or polyurethane, or
acrylic urethane, and others):
Though technically considered enamels, could be
considered in their own
category due to their special characteristics. These
are paints like IMRON,
and are polyurethane enamels. They set-up (cure) fast,
are very resistant to
solvent damage. The down side. Very difficult to
touch-up/repair (especially
if metallic and/or pearl), very expensive, very toxic
and, because they dry
very fast, if you're not careful (and quick), you can
find yourself with a
gun full of hardened paint, which can get expensive at
$250.00 to $500.00 a
gun.
Base Coat/Clear Coats: Not to be confused with
"Two-Part" paints:
These are "Two-(or more)Step" paints, which can be
either "One-part", or
"Two-Part" paints. Remember, lacquers dry through
evaporation (be they one
or two _step_) and enamels dry through evaporation
_and_ chemical
cross-link. So, what's that mean Howard?? It means
that a lacquer can be a
"Two-(or more) Step" (base, metallics and/or pearls,
and clear) paint, but
it is _always_ a "One-Part" (no catalyst) paint. While
enamels can be a
"One-Step" (no clear coat), or a "Two-Step" (or more,
ie. color, metallic
and/or pearl coat and clear coat), and _either_ a
"One-Part" (no catalyst),
or "Two-Part"(catalyzed) paint. Most good (and most
common) enamels are
"Two-Part"(catalyzed). A good example of a
non-catalyzed enamel would be
model paint. It cures through _some_ evaporation, but
primarily through
chemical cross-link, though at a very slow rate when
compared to a catalyzed
enamel.
Bottom line:
Base coat/clear coat paint systems are hard to beat
for resistance to
UV/solvent/chip/"bruise" damage, ease of
maintenance/repair, DOI
(distinctness/depth of image/"wetness"), and variety
of "effects" available.
Runs and/or sags in the clear coat can be eliminated
with a "run razor",
"nib file" and/or wet sanding/polishing, provided
they're not too massive,
and that you've put on a couple of "sacrificial" coats
for polishing.
Typically, when shooting clear coats, 1-2 coats are
applied, and that's
generally sufficient to achieve a very nice finish,
provided you (or the guy
you hire) knows how to shoot. However, if you want the
absolute "t*ts", then
lay down 2-3 extra coats to polish off via wet sanding
(2000 grit or finer)
and polishing.
Paint defects/problems:
Orange peel: Facts and myths.
This term has been the subject of many posts and much
misinformation.
Facts: Causes are.
1) Improper gun adjustment and or techniques (too
little air pressure, wide
fan pattern or too great a distance from gun to
surface)
2) Too high a shop temperature causing the paint to
hit the surface dry
inhibiting flow-out.
3) Gun "fanning" Basically too much air pressure
and/or too little paint
resulting in causing the
4) Improper flash time between coats. If the first
coats are allowed to
become too dry, the solvents in subsequent coats are
absorbed into the prior
coat before the paint can flow-out.
5) Incorrect thinner/reducer/basemaker: Under-diluted
paint, or to fast a
thinner/reducer allows the paint to dry before hitting
the surface and
doesn't allow the paint to flow-out.
6) Too little thinner/reducer/basemaker.
7) Improper mixing: If the materials are not
thoroughly and uniformly mixed,
the paint will not coalesce properly.
Myths: Orange peel is "good".
Total BS, unless you're trying to duplicate a
factory/original finish. I
suppose if your high dollar Ferrari (or other
"exotic"/"collectable") was
delivered with orange peel in the paint, and it means
an extra $5,000.00
when you sell it, or those almighty concours points
are what you're after,
then by all means, have your painter reproduce the
poor quality. But, if you
want an outstanding paint job, then don't accept
orange peel.
What to do if you're painting and you get some orange
peel:
If it's in the base coat, correct it _before_ going
any further. If it's
not too severe, and you're not shooting a metallic or
pearl, compounding may
eliminate it. If it's bad, or you're using a metallic
or pearl, you may have
to sand down to smooth the surface, and re-coat. Make
sure you've solved the
problem (using a test panel) before you re-coat
though, or you'll most
likely have the same thing happen.
If it's in the clear coat and you've laid down enough
paint to polish off a
few coats for that show finish, then you should be
O.K. But if you see it
happening, stop and correct the problem before making
things worse.
Fish Eye:
Fish eye, or small voids in the paint is caused by
oils on the old finish. Oils from your hand or from the
compressor will soak fast into the primer or old
topcoat and push away the new paint from coating in that
spot.
Solution: Proper degreasing of body after contact, a
wash down with a PREPSOL solvent and Oil separator
inline to the paint gun. There is really no way to
counter fish eye if you get it duing a shoot, more paint
will just run away fom the spot. You can touch it up
with a pin point brush after the paint fully cures and
rub it to blend in.
Water spots:
Small circles or craters of paint are cuased by excess
water in the compressed air.
Solution: air filter/ dryer attached in line to the
gun. After the fact-- some water spots will buff out,
most will not.
To strip, or not to strip:
Can you get a "good" paint job without stripping the
car to primer and/or
bare metal? Or, removing the trim? Or paying a lot of
money? Or buying
"expensive" paint?
If by "good", you mean shiny, then yes. But, there are
other _important_
things to consider. How long will it remain shiny? How
long will the paint
stay on the car, how many chips (around the window
gaskets etc) can you live
with?
As far as painting over old paint is concerned, the
key issue is total paint
thickness after the new paint is applied, knowing
exactly what's under the
paint in terms of old paint/body work, and the proper
selection/use of
sealers/primers, etc. The total thickness of most
paint jobs today is around
3.5-5.0 mills (0.0035-0.005") including primers,
colors, and clears. If you
get much over 7.5-9.5 mills (0.0075-0.0095"), then the
paint is likely to
crack, chip and/or peel. Again, unless you know what's
under the paint in
terms of quality of previous paint/body
work/materials, you're taking a big
chance with the money you're spending. The Thing is
harder to strip by hand with all the corrigations in
the metal. A soft media blast is the best way but can
double the cost of prep.
If you want to know why a good paint job can be so
expensive, go down to the
boneyard and get a fender off of car. Then, remove all
the trim, strip the
paint, do any necessary bodywork, and repaint it. Be
sure to buy the good
stuff (about $250.00+ per gallon for just the
clearcoat). Then, once you're
satisfied with the result (make sure to be as
critical/picky of yourself as
you would be of anyone you might pay for the work,
about every spec of dust
etc.) add up (honestly) what you're time/money is
worth. Don't forget to
take into account the time/money it took to learn what
you're doing (your
salary is based, at least in part, on your education,
isn't it?) the cost of
the tools/equipment, utilities, rent, insurance,
salaries etc. for
employees, all that stuff. Now, multiply just the
time/effort in labor for
only the work itself by 10, at least. Also remember
that geographic location
can play a part in costs (just as it does in real
estate, etc) due to
state/local regulations. That should give you an idea
of why paint jobs can
cost what they do. Just because a car is only worth a
few thousand dollars,
it doesn't make it any easier/cheaper to paint, and
that's where I think
much of the "problem" lies in regard to painting
classics. It's a bit hard to
justify $5,000.00 for a paint job on a $10,000.00 car.
It has to come down
to this. Do you want a "Macco" paint job, or a "Show"
paint job? If you
choose cheap materials/methods/"shortcuts", you can't
really blame the guy
doing the work for less than perfect results, unless
of course it's you
that's doing it. For what it's worth, in Germany,
painters are taught to
always strip off the old paint before doing a repaint.
Hope this has been of some interest/help.
Ken C.
jabobia
-james
"Gareth" <keld...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020327092111...@mb-fq.aol.com...
John Henry
polished, and waxed to have a good luster and shine. Then came Synthetic
Enamels. They had a resin base as opposed to a nitrocellulose one.
This resin benefited from heat-accelerated drying, or it would remain soft for a
long
time. It needed no polishing. Acrylic lacquers came next, which
used an acrylic resin as a base and a plasticizer to keep the the paint from
becoming too
brittle. Acrylic lacquers were used extensively by General Motors
in the 50s and 60s. Acrylic enamel came next, it is modified with acrylic resin
and is
insoluble in solvent when cured, unlike lacquers. In roughly the
mid 70s., polyurethanes emerged. Their durability over the enamels and lacquers
(they are
much more "flexible") made them desirable. The technologies were
further refined in the development of acrylic urethane single stages, and base /
clear
finishes which are the most durable paints available today. Modern
paint additives for curing and hardening further improve the paint's
performance.
TonkaDiesl
I know you know how to paint and that you can get a good paint job and get
good results out of it. I'm sorry for my actions and the remarks that I stated.
I just have seen bad results from some of these cheap brands of paint that
are used on ALOT of cars and kinda gives Clearcoat a bad name.
You take care and I do Apoligize beyond no end for letting the heat of the
moment get to me.
Supprised that you didn't tell me to kiss your ass long befor now...Tony
Lauren
--
1970 Squareback FI
1972 Super Beetle
1974 Beetle Autostick
1974 Convertible Sunbug
1981 Rabbit Diesel LS 4dr
1981 Rabbit Diesel L 2dr
1981 Rabbit Diesel L 4dr
1987 Cabriolet
1987 Cabriolet (parts car)
19?? Green Beetle Tattoo on my arm :)
http://www.vwfamily.cjb.net
<trav...@SPAMINATORhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ca1d036...@news.cisco.com...
Chris Perdue
hehe...i never tell anyone to kiss my ass...hehehe.....no prob man i guess we
al get a little hot under the collar sometimes....i did....by the way i wiped
some dust off the roof of my 74 today and it is really shiney....hehehe had to
get that one in one last time....
trav...@spaminatorhotmail.com
it out. ;-) Or was that your Cabriolet...or your Super
Beetle....or....
Lauren
rabbit on the hood.... gonna do some more when I get some good ideas... do
they sell glow in the dark paint in big cans????
--
1970 Squareback FI
1972 Super Beetle
1974 Beetle Autostick
1974 Convertible Sunbug
1981 Rabbit Diesel LS 4dr
1981 Rabbit Diesel L 2dr
1981 Rabbit Diesel L 4dr
1987 Cabriolet
1987 Cabriolet (parts car)
19?? Green Beetle Tattoo on my arm :)
http://www.vwfamily.cjb.net
<trav...@SPAMINATORhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ca233cc...@news.cisco.com...
TonkaDiesl
>wiped
>some dust off the roof of my 74 today and it is really shiney....hehehe had
>to
>get that one in one last time....
just go on being friends on here and not let this dissagreement shit get in the
way,, enjoyed hearing from ya, take care.
Now travist give me a dang beer..tony
Chris Perdue
> Hay thats nothing, I enjoyed pissing you off,,,,,,:^) it's good that we can
>just go on being friends on here and not let this dissagreement shit get in
>the
>way,, enjoyed hearing from ya, take care.
yeah i have to agree is can be fun pissing people off at times....hehehe .... i
hold no grudges....we can fist fight at four and shoot the shit and drink a
beer at 4:30....
trav...@spaminatorhotmail.com
OK, but last one. I'm not a barmaid!
*tosses Tony a beer*
Chris Perdue
>
>OK, but last one. I'm not a barmaid!
> *tosses Tony a beer*
>
>
>Travis (Shaggie)
but shag...you might look cute in a short skirt.....
well on second thought please don't!!!!
TonkaDiesl
>.... i
>hold no grudges....we can fist fight at four and shoot the shit and drink a
>beer at 4:30....
>
Now that I will go for, Thanks Chris for being cool. Well at least we did't
leave RAMVA for this crap. God what a loss thatg would be for ourselfs...Now
chris stop wetting down your bug....
Now im fricking burping..:^) tony
TonkaDiesl
>OK, but last one. I'm not a barmaid!
> *tosses Tony a beer*
Throwing it back your way. I dont drink that shit beer "lone star" what the
heck are you doing with that crap in your fridge?
Burp,Burp and Burp...tony
TonkaDiesl
Dont bend over in my shop. You might get clear coated.........No enamal..
burp. tony
trav...@spaminatorhotmail.com
"Lone Star?" Is that from the state that thinks it's a country?
Where everything, or at least the egos, are bigger? heh heh
*whiskey burp*
Lauren
--
1970 Squareback FI
1972 Super Beetle
1974 Beetle Autostick
1974 Convertible Sunbug
1981 Rabbit Diesel LS 4dr
1981 Rabbit Diesel L 2dr
1981 Rabbit Diesel L 4dr
1987 Cabriolet
1987 Cabriolet (parts car)
19?? Green Beetle Tattoo on my arm :)
http://www.vwfamily.cjb.net
<trav...@SPAMINATORhotmail.com> wrote in message
news:3ca2709a...@news.cisco.com...
John Henry
TonkaDiesl wrote:
> >From: bugninva
> >sitting
> >in my back yard right now.....nine years ago my 74 bug was painted with
> >dupont
> >chroma base....base coat and clearcoat.....the car has never seen a car cover
>
> Where do ya live? Alaska where the sun don't shine? :^) Well the only
> proof that I have seen that clearcoats are good is on this site. I usally don't
> get My feathers ruffled on here or dissagree much with anyone on Ramva. BUT I
> have never seen any Living proof that clearcoats hold up.
Seriously Tony, go find a '96 BMW that has spent it's life in the TX sun. That's a
clearcoat.
> I've been painting
> now for 25 years shooting Lacquer to Basecoat clearcoats on my own cars, Plus
> numbers of others for other people. Yes I can get a Nice looking paint job and
> pay 1200 dollars for paint and materials which I have done on some of my cars (
> pintos to Mercedes) but for daily drivers No way will it hold up in MY opinion.
> I sold my Mercedes after 3 years and its probly still looking good to this day
> but the cost was (beyond this world).
> Now what were talking is someone is going to have to pay someone to paint
> there car and it's a daily driver. Well if you have $4500 for someone to paint
> your daily driver and you want clearcoat on it and the right materials and the
> proper skilled person to do it by George go for it. Not many paint shops will
> come close to a bug because of the amount of work it takes to do the job right.
> I still to this day have never seen a clearcoat hold up for over 4 years and
> I will NEVER be convenced of that.
> Now this is my opinion not ment to degrade anyone. Ok? thanks,
> Dang give me a beer...tony