Who is brave enough to tell me? :-)
Al
explanations as there are actual air cooled engines. <g> I am always
listening for those who have actually done it, and succeeded, so if
you have, I would like to hear from you.
A brief synopsis: Just did a 'top end' rebuild of a Type IV engine in
my vanagon. All I really did was replace the pistons/rings/cylinders
with all new parts, and installed rebuilt heads. Nothing fancy, and
why I only did that, is a topic for another time if anyone really
wants to know.
I fired it up, ran it at about 2500rpm for 20 minutes, even tho the
crank and cam/lifters were not new, but simply left alone from the
original motor. Didn't split the case. Just a simple, "get it back on
the road with fingers crossed till I am rich enough to do it up all
the way, perfect"
The method of seating the rings eludes me, and the reason for my
asking is the very small window of time I get from the state with a
temp registration to break it it, and get it past the emissions tests.
No catalytic, no EGR system, so not a big window for failure and
adjustments. Until one cylinder failed, it never had a problem with
the emissions numbers, sans the cat and egr.
So, it sits in the driveway, starts and runs okay, and is ready for
the big road effort, so I seek wisdom as to how long I am to run up
and down the hills and valleys, going in higher gears, to 55, and
backing down to 25, loading and unloading the rings in the cylinders
before I can say that part is finished, and I may have a chance of
passing an emissions test.
How many miles of this kind of "load it down, introduce the rings to
the cylinders" driving is needed? Can I do it in a day of several
hours? 50 miles?? Takes days and days and hundreds of miles?
No lack of long grades and hills and valleys, but lack of time to get
it done is what has me paused to think. I have read a lot of on-line
writeups about it, and none agree, and none are very specific as to
how long this process should take.
Of course, I will take good care of it after this process, and not do
extended driving at one speed on the freeway, etc, but the goal is to
get it broke in, and have a chance to pass the emissions test, so if
you have done it, or are a real expert and want to chime in with your
opinion, that is why I am here. Just want to get to a point where I
can feel pretty safe in saying that the rings/cylinders are broken in
together, and move on to enjoying my van once more.
Thank you for reading all of this. I am grateful for real life
experience, and advice.
Jim Ed
all new parts,
I drove it around a residential neighborhood with plenty of stops and
starts for about 30 to 45 minutes.
That way it had some load on the engine verses letting it idle for 30
minutes with occasional revving it up.
Check the John Muir ‘…Keep it Alive’ book for some more tips.
I got this from Rob and Dave’s vw-resource.com.
http://www.vw-resource.com/engine_rebuild.html
"Run-In"
After having your engine rebuilt you should take it easy for a few
hundred miles. If it's not a complete rebuild a full run-in won't be
necessary, but gently on the new bearings is a good idea. That run-in
can be on the road -- just light on the throttle and don't load the
engine hard -- use more rpm and less heavy throttle rather than the
other way round.
A full run-in is needed to harden new cam lobes - at first start go
straight up to 2500 rpm and hold it there for 15 minutes, then change
the oil. Then gentle driving for 500 miles and change the oil again,
then it's finished. The high speed first run is supposed to be fine
for rings and pistons since the engine is unloaded, but it's essential
for the cam or it won't last.
If you're only replacing the engine case, that means the cam shaft,
pistons, cylinders, heads, valves etc. are all the same, so running
them in is not necessary. But the crankshaft bearings will be new, and
a little gentle running till they settle in is wise.
Only one oil change should be necessary at 100-200 miles, just to
flush out any particles which may be in there from the internal work
that has been done. Then you can revert to the normal 3000-mile
changes.
The mechanic who replaced Dave's engine case and crankshaft said that
run-in wouldn't be necessary. He put all of the parts together with
oil, he said, so a preliminary spin wouldn't be necessary. And he said
it wouldn't be necessary to change the oil for 3000 miles. Rob said,
It's only precautionary, a few hundred miles is enough to dislodge any
tiny fragments of metal which are always likely after a rebuild of any
sort, no matter how careful you are/he is. I'd rather flush away a
sump full of good oil than risk anything staying in there for 3000
miles.
And a quick check of the valve clearance when you first change the oil
to make sure nothing has tightened up and they should be fine.
~~~
Jan
Drive at slow-ish cruising speed, and floor the throttle. Do not
downshift, stay in relatively high gear. Let the engine build speed
slowly, intentionally staying in "too high" gear for acceleration. You
want to put load in the engine, make it sweat a little as if you were
going uphill. When it has picked up speed and rpms, take your foot off
the gas and let the engine slow the car down to where you started from.
Then floor the throttle again and repeat the procedure. You can do this
very effectively on an empty stretch of road somewhere, where other
traffic won't get disturbed by your fluctuating speed. This is more
efficient at pretty low speeds, maybe 2nd gear and 1500 rpms to 3000,
then back again. Try to do this for 15 minutes or so, taking breaks
every few minutes. It's not THAT critical.
You can pretty soon move on to normal traffic, just adopt a driving
style where you accelerate full throttle from low rpms in a tall gear,
rather than downshifting for better acceleration and using part throttle
(as you would in a normal situation). When approaching intersections or
red lights, use downshifting and engine braking instead of the brakes,
to slow down. In other words, load the engine at low rpms when
accelerating, and let it be your brakes when slowing down. If there's
someone behind you I would put slight pressure on the brake pedal too
just to turn on your brake lights, so they won't rear end you!
You can do this for a day or two, then go back to your normal driving
habits, whatever they may be :D After the first hours of driving like
this, most of the break-in will have happened.
Change the oil when you are done.
Joey Tribiani
"Jan" <bug...@rocketmailDOT.com> wrote in message
news:7a1no3F...@mid.individual.net...
> To break in the piston rings & cylinders:
>
make sure your wastegate isn't sticking open, then just run it through the
gears at full boost two times... enjoy...<G>
Jan Andersson
Run one 4 minute race on a dirt track with no air filters and an open
engine bay. Purdy much takes care of it too. :)
I had a set of pistons and rings from a turbo race engine kicking around
the garage one time, and I took the rings off of one of the pistons. I
spread the first compression ring open a little to get it out, and it
wouldn't go back. I could bend it to almost any shape I wanted and it
would stay. No springiness or tension left in it.
Joey Tribiani
"Jan Andersson" <bug...@spamtrap.rocketmail.com> wrote in message
news:7a35v7F...@mid.individual.net...
> I had a set of pistons and rings from a turbo race engine kicking around
> the garage one time, and I took the rings off of one of the pistons. I
> spread the first compression ring open a little to get it out, and it
> wouldn't go back. I could bend it to almost any shape I wanted and it
> would stay. No springiness or tension left in it.
don't need it the pressure will push it out against the cylinder....LOL
john joseph
> Joey Tribiani wrote:
>> "Jan" <bug...@rocketmailDOT.com> wrote in message
>> news:7a1no3F...@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>> To break in the piston rings & cylinders:
>>>
>>
>> make sure your wastegate isn't sticking open, then just run it through
>> the gears at full boost two times... enjoy...<G>
>>
>
>
> Run one 4 minute race on a dirt track with no air filters and an open
> engine bay. Purdy much takes care of it too. :)
>
I realize the idea is to get the rings to heat up (specifically the
leading edges), then cool to conform to the cylinder. Honing the
cylinders makes that more efficient.
But how do you think that works with plated cylinder walls?
Joey Tribiani
"john joseph" <now...@nowhere.nl> wrote in message
news:JcSdndSpmYMxb6HX...@supernews.com...
>
> But how do you think that works with plated cylinder walls?
can't help ya there John.... I can only assume(yeah, I know) that the rings
are of a different composition for plated cylinders... purely speculation on
my part...
Max
specific to break in new engines? There's no way they had time to
drive each new vehicle to seat the rings.
Max
Jan Andersson
AFAIK each engine was test run (broken in to some extent at least)
outside of the car, as they got assembled.
Joey Tribiani
Jan, one of the video links you posted some time back showed each car
hitting a chasis roller at the end of the production line to test the
running gear...
P.J.Berg
The engines where also run at stands before they where hooked up to the
chassis.
J.
--
Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Max
> On Sun, 21 Jun 2009 05:04:36 +0200, Joey Tribiani <J...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > "Jan Andersson" <bugf...@spamtrap.rocketmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:7a58g1F...@mid.individual.net...
> >> Max wrote:
> >>> Perhaps someone reading this knows... did VW themselves do anything
> >>> specific to break in new engines? There's no way they had time to
> >>> drive each new vehicle to seat the rings.
>
> >>> Max
>
> >> AFAIK each engine was test run (broken in to some extent at least)
> >> outside
> >> of the car, as they got assembled.
>
> > Jan, one of the video links you posted some time back showed each car
> > hitting a chasis roller at the end of the production line to test the
> > running gear...
>
> The engines where also run at stands before they where hooked up to the
> chassis.
Any details on this procedure? Was it long enough to test for leaks?
Or just to make sure it would run?
Max
P.J.Berg
You can find the video on uTube, no details though. Try Google and
Wikipedia.
Max
The point of my question is to find out what, if anything, VW did to
seat the rings on brand new engines. It seems like a lot of people are
advocating a variety of techniques to do this ... and it might be
sufficient to just drive the car normally.
Max
Al
>>
> The point of my question is to find out what, if anything, VW did to
> seat the rings on brand new engines. It seems like a lot of people are
> advocating a variety of techniques to do this ... and it might be
> sufficient to just drive the car normally.
>
> Max
Max, and all,
I am getting the impression that the notion of seating the rings is
urban legend, based on how many people I have asked whose opinions I
think I can trust. How do all these new engines get broken in (ring-
wise?) Not on an engine stand, as there is no load.
Thirty five years ago, when building V8 engines for drag racing, I
never once broke in an engine before I took it down the track at top
speeds. Build it up in the pits, fire it up, and run it, (SS, MP, and
the like, no nitro <g> and they sure seemed to run okay, week after
week, till I pitched a rod through the block, or rolled the damn thing
lol! No one I knew at the track ever "seated" the rings prior to
making the first run on the new engine.
When I would rebuild a street car, not for racing, I did make it a
point to 'stress' the motor thinking I was seating the rings, but I
have zero proof if that did anything of value. Never had anyone come
back and complain about compression, or blow-by, or performance issues
<shrug> I have never bought a new car, but I am quite certain that the
owner is not told to go run it up and down a medium grade for half an
hour to break it in. They are told to just go easy with it for a time,
and to change the oil at some point mentioned in the owner's manual.
On AirCooled.net is a nice writeup by John about the air cooled
breakin, but he also says that unless the thermostat and flaps are
working, the engine won't ever get hot enough and the rings may never
seat, which makes no sense to me, as the flaps fail open, so the
engine will heat up and break in, regardless of the t-stat. Just
pointing it out to show how I don't think many people really know for
sure if its required, and more important than that, if its necessary,
I am still looking for documentation on how long it is necessary to
"abuse" the engine to seat the rings.
Jan is the very first person (out of several dozen) who has even
mentioned an amount of time for the ring breakin. Everyone else just
says to do it, but never says for how long, and I cringe at some who
say for 500 miles, as that is just insane.
I think I will take it out, and give it half an hour of accel/decel in
high gears on some of the grades around here, and then just drive it
nicely for the first 500-1000 miles, staying away from constant 60mph
runs on the highway. If it doesn't work, who knows if I will ever be
able to prove it? :-) <shrug>
Thanks a lot for the ideas, and the exchange of stories and info.
Al
Joey Tribiani
"Al" <psych...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:8c942e67-b2e1-488f...@h2g2000yqg.googlegroups.com...
>, but he also says that unless the thermostat and flaps are
> working, the engine won't ever get hot enough and the rings may never
> seat, which makes no sense to me, as the flaps fail open, so the
> engine will heat up and break in, regardless of the t-stat.
just because the thermostat is designed to fail in the open position does
not mean then engine heats up.... an overcooled engine is an overcooled
engine.... I'm not sure why folks can't wrap their heads around why a
thermostat is a good thing... the air is the medium, the thermostat is the
control, just like water cooled cars with thermostats... either one with a
failed(open) or missing thermostat can and will run cool...
that said, you can cook an engine lugging it even without a thermostat...
load and heat seat rings, it's nothing new, always been that way... and it
takes very little time in my experience...
Jan Andersson
> Jan is the very first person (out of several dozen) who has even
> mentioned an amount of time for the ring breakin. Everyone else just
> says to do it, but never says for how long, and I cringe at some who
> say for 500 miles, as that is just insane.
And I just pulled that out of my a$$ :)
Max
wrote:
When I build my 1776 years ago, I used a leak-down tester to track
when the rings were seated. On the bench, all four cylinders came up
around 50%, new rings leaking like crazy. Then I just drove it. After
a couple hundred miles (one tank of gas), I repeated the leakdown
test. All four cylinders were under 5%.
Done.
Max
Al
>
> just because the thermostat is designed to fail in the open position does
> not mean then engine heats up.... an overcooled engine is an overcooled
> engine.... I'm not sure why folks can't wrap their heads around why a
> thermostat is a good thing... the air is the medium, the thermostat is the
> control, just like water cooled cars with thermostats... either one with a
> failed(open) or missing thermostat can and will run cool...
Because its an air cooled, not a water cooled, and once the t-stat is
fully open on a -hot day-, it NEVER closes. Its only function is to
speed the warm up process, in an air cooled. The t-stat in a water
engine controls the temperature of the engine on a hot day by
monitoring the coolant temps and using the rcooler water in the
radiator to control it. The air cooled t-stat has no cooling source to
turn to when things get too hot. Its not a thermostat in the same
sense as a water cooled version. that is why no one can wrap their
head around it. Its a false notion from the beginning
Toss in the fact that that there are no t-stats for a Type IV, if we
accept that position, it means no one can rebuild and breaking any
more air cooled Type IV engines.
No, I am not gonna afro-american rig a beetle t-stat.
John
Randall
Peter, Paul & Mary think that 500 miles is the right length. They should
know, because they were on the road for months at a time when they
toured in the early '60s in their Microbus. (It was after they made a
load of money that they were able to leave on a jet plane for their
gigs.) They blew a couple of engines until they arrived at the 500 mile
figure through trial and error. (This was before John Muir's Complete
Idiot book came out.) P,P&M were so sure about 500 being the right
number of miles that they made reference to it in six consecutive lines
in the following song.
http://www.leoslyrics.com/listlyrics.php?hid=SCfPLtCEjwA%3D
And I just pulled that out of my stream of consciousness.
|--------------------------|
| :-) HAVE A NICE DAY! :-) |
|--------------------------|
Joey Tribiani
>
> Because its an air cooled, not a water cooled, and once the t-stat is
> fully open on a -hot day-, it NEVER closes.
if the engine is producing more heat than the cooling system can shed, you
are correct...
> Its only function is to
> speed the warm up process, in an air cooled.
absolute bullshit and frequently repeated MYTH of the vw engine..
>The t-stat in a water
> engine controls the temperature of the engine on a hot day by
> monitoring the coolant temps and using the rcooler water in the
> radiator to control it. The air cooled t-stat has no cooling source to
> turn to when things get too hot.
they call it "air cooled" for a reason... the air is the cooling source, do
you actually believe what you are writing?
>Its not a thermostat in the same
> sense as a water cooled version. that is why no one can wrap their
> head around it. Its a false notion from the beginning
more bullshit.... it's obvious you've never owned a vw with a functioning
thermostat... really... it does regulate the engine temperature and even at
70 degrees ambient temperature i've noted my thermostat not fully
extended... it regulates engine temperature just as the thermostat in a
watercooled car does, plain and simple...
>
> Toss in the fact that that there are no t-stats for a Type IV, if we
> accept that position, it means no one can rebuild and breaking any
> more air cooled Type IV engines.
um... yes, factory type IV engined did in fact have a thermostat very
similar to the type one's thermostat...
>
> No, I am not gonna afro-american rig a beetle t-stat.
>
> John
no need to do any rigging, it is a factory system that works perfectly....
unfortunately too many ignorant folks perpetuate the myth that it's not
needed... you are one of those...
Jan Andersson
I'm with Joey on this one. The factory thermostat work just like a
watercooled engine thermostat, it regulates engine temperature by
allowing quick warmup, then expanding to allow cooling, but if the
ambient temperature is so cold that the engine starts to overcool, the
thermostat starts closing, reducing cooling.
And yes, the Type 4 engines did have a thermostat, identical to the type
1 thermostat, just a different hookup via a cable and a pulley instead
of a stiff rod.
Another thermostat exists in both engines in addition to the above, and
that's the oil pressure control valves. :)
Al
> they call it "air cooled" for a reason... the air is the cooling source, do
> you actually believe what you are writing?
>
I don't think you have a clue how the cooling system works on a TYPE
IV
> more bullshit.... it's obvious you've never owned a vw with a functioning
> thermostat... really... it does regulate the engine temperature and even at
> 70 degrees ambient temperature i've noted my thermostat not fully
> extended... it regulates engine temperature just as the thermostat in a
> watercooled car does, plain and simple...
man, you are stupider than I thought. The Air cooled engine wants to
be around 250 degrees, plus or minus, in order to burn off the
contaminants in the oil, and create an efficient combustion. Since the
t-stat opens under 100 degrees, once its open there is no need for it
to ever close again. Good grief.
>
>
>
> > Toss in the fact that that there are no t-stats for a Type IV, if we
> > accept that position, it means no one can rebuild and breaking any
> > more air cooled Type IV engines.
>
> um... yes, factory type IV engined did in fact have a thermostat very
> similar to the type one's thermostat...
>
Read what I said, and don't be so quick to try and prove your manhood
in a usenet post?
I seem to have said no one can rebuild and break in any more TYPE IV
engines, since there are no T-stats to be had, and after nearly thirty
years, few, if any, are working. You are formally challenged to go
find ONE so that those who rebuild their engines can use them. There
are none, and the fact that you don't know that, tells me I no longer
need to read your posts, and put up with your lack of knowledge of
the type IV engine.
If its 70 degress ambient, and your engine exceeds 100 degrees, I can
assure you that your t-stat will NOT EVER be able to cool it back
down. I DID speak of a hot day, not a winter day, so pay attention
before you put your foot into your mouth up to your tonsils.
>
> no need to do any rigging, it is a factory system that works perfectly....
> unfortunately too many ignorant folks perpetuate the myth that it's not
> needed... you are one of those...
You are rather bunny brained if you think its possible to go buy a
new, working t-stat for a Type IV engine. They are long ago NLA, and
if someone fines one that works in a junk yard, they charge $75+
dollars for it.
In the end, the function was related to emissions control, in order to
get the engine up to operating temps as quickly as possible. When you
figure out how the t-stat can COOL an engine that has already reached
operating temperatures, you come on back and let everyone know, but
you can't, so you won't be back.
Learn, think, then speak.
Al
Olli Lammi
>
> man, you are stupider than I thought. The Air cooled engine wants to
> be around 250 degrees, plus or minus, in order to burn off the
> contaminants in the oil, and create an efficient combustion. Since the
> t-stat opens under 100 degrees, once its open there is no need for it
> to ever close again. Good grief.
Hello Al
Maybe you will share with us your reasoning, what makes you think that
the cooling air and thus the thermostat would be also in 250 degrees
when then engine is in the optimal temperature area (250 degrees)?
---
Olli
vwvanagon
wrote:
>
> I'm with Joey on this one. The factory thermostat work just like a
> watercooled engine thermostat,
No, it does not function at all like a watercooled t-stat. Not at all.
A water cooled t-stat allows cooled water to enter the engine and
reduce the temps. The air cooled t-stat simply blocks off the flow of
air and the amibient temps will eventually cool the engine. Not the
same at all.
it regulates engine temperature by
> allowing quick warmup, then expanding to allow cooling, but if the
> ambient temperature is so cold that the engine starts to overcool, the
> thermostat starts closing, reducing cooling.
You should have read what I wrote, as I clearly pointed out the issue
is breaking in the rings on a hot day, not in the winter.
>
> And yes, the Type 4 engines did have a thermostat, identical to the type
> 1 thermostat, just a different hookup via a cable and a pulley instead
> of a stiff rod.
Not at all identical, but an option if you can find one. Still won't
help to break in a new engine on a hot day.
Sorry, but the topic was engine breakin, and the issue there is to get
the engine to operating temperature on a hot day, and there is diddly
jack squat that the t-stat can do to make that happen. Those who
choose to take the topic elsewhere, are welcome to do so, but they
shouldn't bastardize my words, and my needs, just so they can get a
hard on, call me names, and think themselves superior, as all they are
showing is the lack of the ability to comprehend the question, and
offer help in that direction.
Everyone on usenet is the smartest person who ever lived. In real
life, I doubt it very much.
Al
wrote:
Since the flaps are wide open at 100 degrees, plus or minus the grease
and the spec, if the engine is at 250 degrees (an it is almost always
higher than that once totally warmed up,) the flaps are wide open, and
will remain that way, until the temps go near, or below 100 degrees
(F) Anytime the engine is running, once it has warmed past 100
degrees (that is the number for discussion sake) the flaps are wide
open, and will not begin to close until you shut down the engine.
The air cooled t-stat is not the same thing as a water cooled engine.
I has no way to cool the engine down, no reserve of cool air to call
upon,. The only thing the flaps can do, is get the engine warmed up
quicker than if it was not there. After that, it has no function. If
you find a way to run your air cooled engine at 100 degrees for any
length of time, so the t-stat cycles off and on like a water cooled
version, a lot of people would like to know how you manage that. :-)
A water cooled stat is set for 185-220 or so, because that is the temp
that the engine runs best at, and also burns off the water and
contaminants in the oil. It can do that, because it has a reserve of
cool water in the radiator for when it exceeds the max temp. When an
AC exceeds the max temp, the t-stat doesn't do anything towards
cooling the engine, as it has nothing to cool it with. Cooling in an
AC engine is from the fan, and the well designed flow of air across
the heads, directed by the tin, and the oil itself.
Keep in mind the original question involves breaking in the rings, on
a hot day. All the rest, is the usual hijacking of a thread which
happens all the time, and is not a big deal, but it always leads to
things like this, that mean nothing relating to the original inquiry.
Olli Lammi
>
> Since the flaps are wide open at 100 degrees, plus or minus the grease
> and the spec, if the engine is at 250 degrees (an it is almost always
> higher than that once totally warmed up,) the flaps are wide open, and
> will remain that way, until the temps go near, or below 100 degrees
> (F) Anytime the engine is running, once it has warmed past 100
> degrees (that is the number for discussion sake) the flaps are wide
> open, and will not begin to close until you shut down the engine.
I think this is not true. As the thermostat is submitted to the cooling
air, it will not be in the same temperature as the cylinder heads and
cylinders. First the flaps are closed when the engine is cold and the
thermostat is in the ambient air temperature.
After starting the engine, the heads and cylinders will start to warm up
and as the flaps are closed, they are not cooled down too much by the
coolant (= air blown through the fins in the heads and cyls). This will
allow the engine to warm up faster, because the coolant flow (= air
flow) is restricted. The cylinders will warm up the air around the
thermostat. The air around the thermo will surely change because of
the air flow below the car caused by it moving when driving. The
heads itself will be a lot hotter than the air next to the thermo.
There are three different temperatures to think about here. Firstly the
actual temperature of the cylinders and heads. Secondly the temperature
of the air besides the thermostat that warms the thermostat. Thirdly
the temperature of the thermostat itself. They all are different
temperatures.
> The air cooled t-stat is not the same thing as a water cooled engine.
> I has no way to cool the engine down, no reserve of cool air to call
> upon,. The only thing the flaps can do, is get the engine warmed up
> quicker than if it was not there. After that, it has no function. If
> you find a way to run your air cooled engine at 100 degrees for any
> length of time, so the t-stat cycles off and on like a water cooled
> version, a lot of people would like to know how you manage that. :-)
The analogy is the same with water cooled and air cooled systems. The
coolant is different: water vs. air. In watercooled engines the coolant
is water, and finally is ambient air due to the radiator, which is
cooled by air. In aircooled engines, the coolant is air itself.
The thermostat has no ability to cool the engine in either of the engine
types. The cooling is done by the coolant that is colder than the item
being cooled and absorbs thermal energy from it. In water cooled engines
the thermostat has the ability to control the flow of the water to the
engine. The water in the system will never be colder than the ambient
air. In an aircooled engine, the thermostat has the ability to control
the air flow past the engine. There surely is a reserve of cool air
available, ie. the fresh ambient air where ever the car is driving. The
air is cooler than the engine and when blown by/through the cooling
fins, will absorb thermal energy from the engine, warm up and at the
same time cool down the engine.
> A water cooled stat is set for 185-220 or so, because that is the temp
> that the engine runs best at, and also burns off the water and
> contaminants in the oil. It can do that, because it has a reserve of
> cool water in the radiator for when it exceeds the max temp. When an
> AC exceeds the max temp, the t-stat doesn't do anything towards
> cooling the engine, as it has nothing to cool it with. Cooling in an
> AC engine is from the fan, and the well designed flow of air across
> the heads, directed by the tin, and the oil itself.
No and yes. The thermo controls the amount of air flow and thus the
cooling of the engine. The engine has a reserve of cool air outside of
the car and uses the thermostat and flaps to control the amount/speed of
air that passes through the well designed areas across the heads.
> Keep in mind the original question involves breaking in the rings, on
> a hot day. All the rest, is the usual hijacking of a thread which
> happens all the time, and is not a big deal, but it always leads to
> things like this, that mean nothing relating to the original inquiry.
Changed the subject of this post to reflect this evolved topic of
discussion.
---
Olli
Jan Andersson
> On Jun 23, 6:59 pm, Jan Andersson <bugf...@spamtrap.rocketmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> I'm with Joey on this one. The factory thermostat work just like a
>> watercooled engine thermostat,
>
> No, it does not function at all like a watercooled t-stat. Not at all.
> A water cooled t-stat allows cooled water to enter the engine and
> reduce the temps. The air cooled t-stat simply blocks off the flow of
> air and the amibient temps will eventually cool the engine. Not the
> same at all.
1. The air cooled thermostat first blocks the cooling media to allow for
faster warmup. Same basic function for the watercooled thermostat, yes?
2. As the engine reaches normal operating temperature, the air cooled
thermostat opens and allows cooling media to flow and cool the engine.
Same basic function as watercooled thermostat, yes?
3. in case of engine cooling back down too much, the aircooled
thermostat begins to close and limit cooling media flow.
Same for the watercooled thermostat, yes?
I don't see much of a difference, other than water being a more
efficient cooling media, and watercooled systems being maybe quicker to
react (?) and able to maintain a closer target temp, where an aircooled
engine is allowed more fluctuation.
>> And yes, the Type 4 engines did have a thermostat, identical to the type
>> 1 thermostat, just a different hookup via a cable and a pulley instead
>> of a stiff rod.
>
> Not at all identical, but an option if you can find one. Still won't
> help to break in a new engine on a hot day.
The type 4 thermostat is 100% IDENTICAL to the type 1 thermostat. Take a
closer look. The T4 thermostat cable part (the "neck") unscrews and then
the thermostat will accept a Type 1 actuator rod. EXACTLY the same.
Al
wrote:
>
> Changed the subject of this post to reflect this evolved topic of
> discussion.
>
Good, then I am done.
Al
wrote:
>
> The type 4 thermostat is 100% IDENTICAL to the type 1 thermostat. Take a
> closer look. The T4 thermostat cable part (the "neck") unscrews and then
> the thermostat will accept a Type 1 actuator rod. EXACTLY the same.
Different temperature range, and two different parts, one of which
fails in the closed position, which is catastrophic.
200K miles on my engine says that where I live, a T-stat doesn't
matter, especially since it doesn't have any relationship to the way a
water cooled t-stat works, no matter how folks try to bend it. Its not
the same, and it can never cool your engine if it starts to run too
hot.
thanks for the give and take.
Jan Andersson
I'll reply to this one more time, after this I doubt I would have much
more to offer. My comments below.
Al wrote:
> On Jun 24, 6:06 pm, Jan Andersson <bugf...@spamtrap.rocketmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> The type 4 thermostat is 100% IDENTICAL to the type 1 thermostat. Take a
>> closer look. The T4 thermostat cable part (the "neck") unscrews and then
>> the thermostat will accept a Type 1 actuator rod. EXACTLY the same.
>
> Different temperature range, and two different parts, one of which
> fails in the closed position, which is catastrophic.
The type 1 thermostats come in 2-3 different temp ratings as well.
Both fail the same way, they expand when punctured, allowing MORE
cooling air to enter the engine. They don't expand 100% as compared to
fully hot lenght, but close. Both act the same. Both thermostats ARE the
same design and fit, fully interchangeable. I don't see where you get
the difference from, saying one of the two fails in closed position.
> 200K miles on my engine says that where I live, a T-stat doesn't
> matter, especially since it doesn't have any relationship to the way a
> water cooled t-stat works, no matter how folks try to bend it. Its not
> the same, and it can never cool your engine if it starts to run too
> hot.
A watercooled engine thermostat cannot cool your engine either, if it
starts to run too hot. Once it's fully open, it's maxed out. If the
engine heats up even more, the temperature will rise and there's nothing
a fully open thermostat can do, to cool it more. It just sits there,
like an aircooled thermostat that is fully open.
In both cases, the engine is designed from the factory to have a cooling
system capacity that matches the engine's heat output in a certain
margin, in all intended market areas. Some market areas get different
radiators, heater cores, thermostats, etc... in the same vehicle model.
The aircooled VW engine is more forgiving to moderate temperature
changes, they can run a little hotter for a while with no ill effects,
where a watercooled engine would soon boil over and blow head gaskets,
warp heads, etc.
For the extreme cold climates then (Where I grew up in), both engines
will have a partially open thermostat for a longer period during
warm-up, or even permanently, in order to avoid overcooling and allow
the engine to reach it's normal operating state.
Maybe I'm too tired, but I really do not see a functional difference
between watercooled and aircooled thermostats.
Joey Tribiani
> On Jun 23, 5:09 pm, "Joey Tribiani" <J...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>> they call it "air cooled" for a reason... the air is the cooling source,
>> do
>> you actually believe what you are writing?
>>
>
> I don't think you have a clue how the cooling system works on a TYPE
> IV
>
period... but don't despair, there are many folks with many years of
"experience" that repeat the same mistakes over and over and over... hence
the experience with it..
>
> man, you are stupider than I thought. The Air cooled engine wants to
> be around 250 degrees, plus or minus, in order to burn off the
> contaminants in the oil, and create an efficient combustion. Since the
> t-stat opens under 100 degrees, once its open there is no need for it
> to ever close again. Good grief.
you seem to think that an aircooled engine is special... talk about being a
bit dense... it's an internal combustion engine... 250F is a bit cool for
the heads and hot for the oil... compare that to a watercooled car and
you'll see our oil runs quite a bit cooler at the bearings and heat in the
combustion chamber is very similar, as is EGT... are you new, or just
experienced as I described above?
>
>>
>
> Read what I said, and don't be so quick to try and prove your manhood
> in a usenet post?
I did read it....
>
> I seem to have said no one can rebuild and break in any more TYPE IV
> engines, since there are no T-stats to be had, and after nearly thirty
> years, few, if any, are working.
they are out there... I'm sure folks don't give up as easily on parts that
parrots don't proclaim to be unnecessary...
> You are formally challenged to go
> find ONE so that those who rebuild their engines can use them.
there are parts out there... look at the number of these vehicles still
operating...
>There
> are none, and the fact that you don't know that, tells me I no longer
> need to read your posts, and put up with your lack of knowledge of
> the type IV engine.
the fact that you are so poorly educated on a subject you are proclaiming
expert status, is quite normal for folks like you.
>
> If its 70 degress ambient, and your engine exceeds 100 degrees, I can
> assure you that your t-stat will NOT EVER be able to cool it back
> down. I DID speak of a hot day, not a winter day, so pay attention
> before you put your foot into your mouth up to your tonsils.
70F may be winter for you, but not for most of the world... the factory type
1 thermostat opens at 149F-158F(and that is the temperature of the expelled
air, not the "engine" which would be higher).. the fuel injected thermostats
were higher.... it's not just the temperature that the thermostat opens at
that you are ignorant on, it's the fact that you feel it's all or nothing...
it's not... it is variable based on temperature, not on or off.(unlike the
watercooled thermostats, that are)..
>
>
> You are rather bunny brained if you think its possible to go buy a
> new, working t-stat for a Type IV engine. They are long ago NLA, and
> if someone fines one that works in a junk yard, they charge $75+
> dollars for it.
so, it's not that it isn't beneficial, and it's really not that it's hard to
find, but that you are a stereotypical VW brokedick tightass... why didn't
you say so?
>
> In the end, the function was related to emissions control, in order to
> get the engine up to operating temps as quickly as possible.
absolutely, because the emission standards for vw's were so strict in the
60's and such...
>When you
> figure out how the t-stat can COOL an engine that has already reached
> operating temperatures, you come on back and let everyone know, but
> you can't, so you won't be back.
I've already explained it, but you are incapable of understanding due to
your misconceptions.. the thermostat does not cool an engine, you mental
midget, it controls the flow of the cooling system.... it's a very simple
concept, but so many very simple minded folks just can't grasp it...
>
> Learn, think, then speak.
follow by example... you are wrong, and creating strawmen and proclaiming
experience and knowledge won't make you any more correct... educate yourself
so you won't look so silly...
Joey Tribiani
good, you won't continue to spread your misinformation... thank you.
Joey Tribiani
"vwvanagon" <vana...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:178f58ba-54bb-4666...@33g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
> Everyone on usenet is the smartest person who ever lived. In real
> life, I doubt it very much.
yep, that you are correct on... and the ones that stand out as not too
bright on usenet, such as folks that like to parrot incorrect information,
are probably much worse in person too...
Joey Tribiani
>
> Maybe I'm too tired, but I really do not see a functional difference
> between watercooled and aircooled thermostats.
there are none Jan... you know that, but are trying too be too nice to
little Al... he's not happy that he's being corrected on his incorrect
information.... he should try looking up "thermostat".... their job, not
matter what the medium is, is to REGULATE TEMPERATURE AUTOMATICALLY.....
even the thermostat in our homes does this function, hence the name
"thermostat"....
Al
> "Jan Andersson" <bugf...@spamtrap.rocketmail.com> wrote in message
Ahh Joey, I just can't resist pointing out that you haven't given any
useful information, all you have done is insult, and make disparaging
remarks, revealing your true, emotional age to be somewhere around
seventeen.
The history of usenet is that those who know what they are talking
about, talk about it, those who are totally clueless, and spend their
teenage years in a dark basement, wearing their PJ's and scuffies,
with a bag of doritos in their lap and a can of Red Bull nearby,
hoping to find their manhood on a computer, and figure that the more
insults they toss out, the tougher it makes them sound, the more
things they have to jack off about. You are the latter, and that is
inarguable, based on what you have posted here.
since you have proven incapable of answering the original question,
why have you not just shut up and moved on to another topic you know
so very little about?
Try women. They are much more fun than just holding your dick with one
hand, and typing stupid comments with the other.
P.S. An air cooled thermostat does not regulate the temperature on a
fully warmed up engine, on a hot day, as is the original comment. Get
used to it. You are w-r-o-n-g and don't know what you are talking
about.
jon
Joey and the knowledge he has contributed over the years. Your insults
are demeaning, without merit, and rude: pot, kettle, black.
Enjoy your doritos.
Regards,
Jon K. Eischeid
Al
Hey, you can kiss Joey's ass if you want. They're your lips. His facts
are WRONG, irrelevant to the topic and the question I asked, he is
giving out false information, and misleading people.
Love him if you want. Your lifestyle is your choice.
Joey may well know everything about air cooled engines. He just
doesn't know anything about how to interact with others. He is just a
punk who lives to post on usenet so he can feel like a man.
fear not. I won't be back. Its not that hard to figure out air cooled
engines, so a big "old fuck" you to everyone who comes here just to
give shit when someone asks a question, and believe me, the lack of
fundamental knowledge of the air cooled engine is clearly found in the
fact that not one of you self professed geniuses could answer my
original question, but for Jan, who is probably closest to correct
imo, even if he thinks he made up the number.
The rest of you, would rather argue, hijack, and demean than admit you
are clueless about something as simplistic as breaking in an engine,
but since hardly any of you have ever rebuilt one, its no suprise.
Good group for useless information.
Be sure and come back with something witty, and don't forget to say
"plonk!" I love it when usenet people do that.
Joey Tribiani
>
> Ahh Joey, I just can't resist pointing out that you haven't given any
> useful information, all you have done is insult, and make disparaging
> remarks, revealing your true, emotional age to be somewhere around
> seventeen.
no, sir, you are wrong AGAIN... i offered information that you just don't
comprehend.. .just because you don't agree with it, does not make it
non-existant... You, sir, are the one that has been throwing out lame
insults... shall I post links to it, or will you still be in denial?...
>
> The history of usenet is that those who know what they are talking
> about, talk about it,
as myself and a couple others have done... all you've done is pass out
insults, spread misinformation, and refuse to even to a little research to
back you up.. I'm guessing you will continue to *not* talk about it....
>those who are totally clueless, and spend their
> teenage years in a dark basement, wearing their PJ's and scuffies,
> with a bag of doritos in their lap and a can of Red Bull nearby,
> hoping to find their manhood on a computer, and figure that the more
> insults they toss out, the tougher it makes them sound, the more
> things they have to jack off about.
that sure sounds like an insult to me... wrong, as you have been for days
now, but an attempt at an insult... try harder pup, you ain't there yet...
>You are the latter, and that is
> inarguable, based on what you have posted here.
inarguable? all that means is YOU can't argue against the correct
information I have provided... that doesn't make it *my* issue...
>
> since you have proven incapable of answering the original question,
> why have you not just shut up and moved on to another topic you know
> so very little about?
i guess you missed my post, just as you missed the class on thermostats....
I'm not only capable, I did, and i have no problem breaking in rings on my
engines... I also have no delusions concerning cooling systems... that, and
the fact that you've show your enormous hypocrisy, is where you and I
differ...
>
> Try women. They are much more fun than just holding your dick with one
> hand, and typing stupid comments with the other.
no problem, you should do that...
>
> P.S. An air cooled thermostat does not regulate the temperature on a
> fully warmed up engine, on a hot day, as is the original comment. Get
> used to it. You are w-r-o-n-g and don't know what you are talking
> about.
>
a thermostat, by definition(the real one, not your misinterpretation) is an
automatic device that regulates temperature... You being a bit dense on that
fact makes you ignorant... the thermostat does indeed regulate temperature,
no matter what the ambient temperature... only an inexperience moron would
think that the engine needs it's full cooling potential at all times.... if
your engine does, you are just pissing in the wind removing a thermostat
instead of fixing whatever you messed up to make it run hot.... run along,
pup, and find us some backup for your position instead of sticking your head
in the sand and calling names to those that provide you with the
truth...when you are done with that, you can fuck off...
"None are so blind as him that will not see"
Joey Tribiani
>
> Hey, you can kiss Joey's ass if you want. They're your lips. His facts
> are WRONG, irrelevant to the topic and the question I asked, he is
> giving out false information, and misleading people.
>
No, false information here, you just don't like someone pointing out your
false information on the thermostat... I stand firmly on my comments to you
on the cooling system... you, when called on your misinformation, proceded
to scream and kick like a child... my information is correct, and others
even stepped up to give you correct information(which concured with mine)
and you still refuse to do any legwork to show us that we are incorrect...
> Love him if you want. Your lifestyle is your choice.
yet the hypocrisy continues...
>
> Joey may well know everything about air cooled engines. He just
> doesn't know anything about how to interact with others. He is just a
> punk who lives to post on usenet so he can feel like a man.
sure, I was a punk in my initial reply... I'll post the link to my original
reply to your misinformation and if you actually read it this time, you'll
see it was nothing but a respectful correction of your misinformation... and
you are correct, helping folks to understand the way these cars REALLY work,
does make me feel better... I don't need anything to make me "feel like a
man", I am one...
>
> fear not. I won't be back. Its not that hard to figure out air cooled
> engines, so a big "old fuck" you to everyone who comes here just to
> give shit when someone asks a question, and believe me, the lack of
> fundamental knowledge of the air cooled engine is clearly found in the
> fact that not one of you self professed geniuses could answer my
> original question, but for Jan, who is probably closest to correct
> imo, even if he thinks he made up the number.
you will be back, anyone that blows as much smoke as you can't stay away
from the shitstorm they tried to stir up... I find it incredibly hard to
believe that anyone that is as much of an expert(self proclaimed, of course)
on the aircooled cooling system, wouldn't know that ring seating can occur
as quickly as one good pull, or never seat, especially when overcooled...
>
> The rest of you, would rather argue, hijack, and demean than admit you
> are clueless about something as simplistic as breaking in an engine,
> but since hardly any of you have ever rebuilt one, its no suprise.
are you talking to us, or looking in the mirror, hypocrite?
>
> Good group for useless information.
no, that's been your job, if you are indeed taking your ball and going home
to cry, then we'll be back to discussing the way these cars actually work.
>
> Be sure and come back with something witty, and don't forget to say
> "plonk!" I love it when usenet people do that.
me too, it's nearly as funny(and as much bullshit) as those that publically
announce that they won't be back... that just shows the poster is looking
for attention any way they can get it... I sure hope you got your fix of
attention here, because you're really not worth wasting good information
on...
Joey Tribiani
"jon" <jon.k.e...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:h20d80$lek$1...@news.nems.noaa.gov...
> Well, Al..... as a long-time member here, I have a lot of respect for
> Joey and the knowledge he has contributed over the years. Your insults
> are demeaning, without merit, and rude: pot, kettle, black.
>
> Enjoy your doritos.
>
> Regards,
> Jon K. Eischeid
>
Jon, thank you for the kind words, but he is correct, I can be a real
asshole... and it all boils down to the way someone treats me... our buddy
Al, decided to jump up and down throwing out insults over disagreeing on how
the cooling system works, instead of actually trying to discuss it... I even
let it slide at first, but if you are an asshole to me enough, I'll return
it back, sometimes many times over... at this point, and it's always subject
to change based on someone's behavior, Al should hope that if he's ever in
need of help again, that someone else offers to help, because I won't... I'm
actually shocked at his initial questions simplicity, considering the
eventual admission that he is an air-cooled engine, all knowing,
guru...<shrug>
Jan Andersson
not one of you self professed geniuses could answer my
> original question, but for Jan, who is probably closest to correct
> imo, even if he thinks he made up the number.
>
> The rest of you, would rather argue, hijack, and demean than admit you
> are clueless about something as simplistic as breaking in an engine
Now I feel left out :(
Jan Andersson
> "jon" <jon.k.e...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:h20d80$lek$1...@news.nems.noaa.gov...
>> Well, Al..... as a long-time member here, I have a lot of respect for
>> Joey and the knowledge he has contributed over the years. Your insults
>> are demeaning, without merit, and rude: pot, kettle, black.
>>
>> Enjoy your doritos.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Jon K. Eischeid
>>
>
> Jon, thank you for the kind words, but he is correct, I can be a real
> asshole...
WHAT!?!?!? And all these years I thought it was impossible ;)
Joey Tribiani
what, that I can be an asshole, or that I thanked someone for something?
tough call on which you refer to...LOL
Olli Lammi
>
> ... removed the part where Al gives hugs and kisses to Jan ...
>
> The rest of you, would rather argue, hijack, and demean than admit you
> are clueless about something as simplistic as breaking in an engine,
> but since hardly any of you have ever rebuilt one, its no suprise.
>
> Good group for useless information.
>
> Be sure and come back with something witty, and don't forget to say
> "plonk!" I love it when usenet people do that.
To Hijacking. Looking at the subject of this thread, I think that
at this point we are starting to be right on the topic. Subject
states this is a pissing contest right from the start and
all about who dares to tell things about Al's facts.
---
Olli
Jan
> > ... removed the part where Al gives hugs and kisses to Jan ...
It's good to be the King :)
vwvanagon
> "Al" <psychoda...@gmail.com> wrote in message
>
> news:8b5ad3e3-20e8-47e6...@z26g2000vbl.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > Because its an air cooled, not a water cooled, and once the t-stat is
> > fully open on a -hot day-, it NEVER closes.
>
> if the engine is producing more heat than the cooling system can shed, you
> are correct...
>
> > Its only function is to
> > speed the warm up process, in an air cooled.
>
> absolute bullshit and frequently repeated MYTH of the vw engine..
>
> >The t-stat in a water
> > engine controls the temperature of the engine on a hot day by
> > monitoring the coolant temps and using the rcooler water in the
> > radiator to control it. The air cooled t-stat has no cooling source to
> > turn to when things get too hot.
>
> you actually believe what you are writing?
>
> > sense as a water cooled version. that is why no one can wrap their
> > head around it. Its a false notion from the beginning
>
> thermostat... really... it does regulate the engine temperature and even at
> 70 degrees ambient temperature i've noted my thermostat not fully
> extended... it regulates engine temperature just as the thermostat in a
> watercooled car does, plain and simple...
No, it does not, and you are stupid to continue to say that it does. A
thermostat doesn't cool anything. All it does is either turn on the
hot air, or the cool air, and your bus has no repository of cool air
to dump onto a hot engine. get used to it, you are wrong, and I am
right.
I can just see you driving the bus, and at the same time, looking
into the engine compartment and watching the T-stat manipulate the
flaps, which you cannot see because of the tin, so you must be viewing
the t-stat itself, which is impossible while driving, as once again,
not only can't you see back there, but the tin is in the way. My god,
you are such a liar. In addition, 70 degrees is NOT A HOT DAY as I
have repeatedly used for the example.
>
>
>
> > Toss in the fact that that there are no t-stats for a Type IV, if we
> > accept that position, it means no one can rebuild and breaking any
> > more air cooled Type IV engines.
>
> um... yes, factory type IV engined did in fact have a thermostat very
> similar to the type one's thermostat...
>
>
>
> > No, I am not gonna afro-american rig a beetle t-stat.
>
> > John
>
> no need to do any rigging, it is a factory system that works perfectly....
> unfortunately too many ignorant folks perpetuate the myth that it's not
> needed... you are one of those...
Well, after thinking on it, wondering if I was the instigator of this
piece of shit thread, I went back to the start, and began to re-read
it.
It is painfully obvious that Joey is the one who raised the
temperature here (no pun intended) with his knowitall attitude,
language, and consistent use of the term bullshit, and without any
supporting evidence other than his own stupidity.
Followed up by calling me ignorant, and making it clear he meant me, I
think its easy to see who is the sad sack, and who came here to pick a
fight. To you Joey, I forgive you for being such an asshole, but
reading this entire thread reveals that you most certainly are, so a
big old New Jersey "FUCK YOU" and a NYC "SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS" is sent
your way.
DON'T EVERY GO AROUND INSTIGATING ILL WILL, AND THEN TURNING IT AROUND
AND BLAMING SOMEONE ELSE FOR THE BAD ATTITUDE THAT RESULTS. YOU
STARTED THIS, I AM FINISHING IT.
YOU ARE OF NO VALUE TO THE HUMAN RACE, AND IT WOULD HELP US ALL IF YOU
JUST SHOVED A 9MM UP YOUR ASS AND PULLED THE TRIGGER, INSTANTLY
BLOWING YOUR BRAINS OUT.
Say whatever you want. I won't see it. People like you are a dime a
dozen, and worth even less than that. You started the ill will, now
take your best, fifth grade shot at the final word. I have no reason
to care, or read your certainly childish response, as I will be taking
my van to the junkyard and have it crushed so I won't have the time or
inclination to read your pitiful response. I no longer wish to be
associated with incessant assholes like yourself. Remember, you
started this with your language and innuendo, not me. Its all there
for the reading, so ask your mom to re-read it to you, and you will
find that you incited me, not the other way around.
VW's are great. Too many owners are douche bags.
Joey Tribiani
>>
>> more bullshit.... it's obvious you've never owned a vw with a functioning
>> thermostat... really... it does regulate the engine temperature and even
>> at
>> 70 degrees ambient temperature i've noted my thermostat not fully
>> extended... it regulates engine temperature just as the thermostat in a
>> watercooled car does, plain and simple...
>
> No, it does not, and you are stupid to continue to say that it does. A
> thermostat doesn't cool anything. All it does is either turn on the
> hot air, or the cool air, and your bus has no repository of cool air
> to dump onto a hot engine. get used to it, you are wrong, and I am
> right.
you are not only incorrrect, you are showing yourself to be barely a
functioning illiterate... look above your statement, at my statement that
you quoted.... here's the key "it does regulate the engine temperature "....
at what point do you see me saying that the thermostat actually does the
cooling?... you don't, and i've pointed out several times that you just
don't understand the difference between the cooling media and the
thermostat... they are different, ya know?
>
> I can just see you driving the bus, and at the same time, looking
> into the engine compartment and watching the T-stat manipulate the
> flaps, which you cannot see because of the tin, so you must be viewing
> the t-stat itself, which is impossible while driving, as once again,
> not only can't you see back there, but the tin is in the way. My god,
> you are such a liar. In addition, 70 degrees is NOT A HOT DAY as I
> have repeatedly used for the example.
fine... on a 90 degree day, you still don't need full cooling capacity at
all times and all conditions... I don't just say that, I guarantee it... as
I said before, if you *do* need full cooling capacity at all times you are
doing something wrong... way wrong...
>
> Well, after thinking on it, wondering if I was the instigator of this
> piece of shit thread, I went back to the start, and began to re-read
> it.
>
> It is painfully obvious that Joey is the one who raised the
> temperature here (no pun intended) with his knowitall attitude,
> language, and consistent use of the term bullshit, and without any
> supporting evidence other than his own stupidity.
my own stupidity? you mean my correcting your misinformation?
>
> Followed up by calling me ignorant, and making it clear he meant me, I
> think its easy to see who is the sad sack, and who came here to pick a
> fight. To you Joey, I forgive you for being such an asshole, but
> reading this entire thread reveals that you most certainly are, so a
> big old New Jersey "FUCK YOU" and a NYC "SHOVE IT UP YOUR ASS" is sent
> your way.
You finally got something close to correct... I did tell you your
misconceptions were wrong and your attempts to explain it was bullshit....
you are wrong, and that hasn't changed.... I did not come here to pick a
fight, I've been here calling out morons like you since just before the
split... I'm sure you know what "the split" was...
>
> DON'T EVERY GO AROUND INSTIGATING ILL WILL, AND THEN TURNING IT AROUND
> AND BLAMING SOMEONE ELSE FOR THE BAD ATTITUDE THAT RESULTS. YOU
> STARTED THIS, I AM FINISHING IT.
>
no blaming anyone... you started with the personal insults and I returned
them... if you don't like them, don't put them out there... or you could
call me names, then when I call them back, you could cry and scream foul...
oh, wait, that's what you are doing...
> YOU ARE OF NO VALUE TO THE HUMAN RACE, AND IT WOULD HELP US ALL IF YOU
> JUST SHOVED A 9MM UP YOUR ASS AND PULLED THE TRIGGER, INSTANTLY
> BLOWING YOUR BRAINS OUT.
in your opinion, maybe... of course you can't figure out how something as
simple as an (automatic) thermostat works, I doubt you could walk me through
getting my head up my ass(as yours is) so I could do as you suggest...
>
> Say whatever you want. I won't see it. People like you are a dime a
> dozen, and worth even less than that.
that's what you said yesterday... and like the correct information I
provided on the thermostat, I correctly stated that you would indeed see my
reply, and you'd be back, even though you said you wouldn't....
>You started the ill will,
only because you got sand in your vagina when corrected... sadly I wasn't
the only one that pointed out your incorrect information, yet you still get
upset... oh well..
>now
> take your best, fifth grade shot at the final word.
like this one you posted?
>I have no reason
> to care, or read your certainly childish response, as I will be taking
> my van to the junkyard and have it crushed so I won't have the time or
> inclination to read your pitiful response.
more utter bullshit... I've remained several levels higher on the "adult"
scale than you have, and it's probably because I've had to deal with
parroting children like yourself for so long on this board and the web
boards... you are only unique in your own mind, there are a million other
blissfully ignorant folks on usenet...
>I no longer wish to be
> associated with incessant assholes like yourself. Remember, you
> started this with your language and innuendo, not me. Its all there
> for the reading, so ask your mom to re-read it to you, and you will
> find that you incited me, not the other way around.
you have a very vivid imagination... to bad your comprehension isn't as good
as your imagination...
>
> VW's are great. Too many owners are douche bags.
>
yep, especially you.... goodbye... oh wait, you won't leave this time(as
promised) either....guaranteed...