Horror Story - 45K Timing Chain Disaster - Saturn Indifference
Steve Granata
I own a 1994 Saturn SL1 sedan, maroon (red?). Until three weeks ago
it was one of the best cars I've ever driven. I kept it in top
condition, with regular Saturn retailer service at 6,000 mile
intervals. The car was 3 years old with 45,000 miles on it.
Three weeks ago I was driving down the freeway, took an exit, and the
TIMING CHAIN SNAPPED. The car moved for about another 75 feet, and
stopped dead in an intersection. I had it towed to my Saturn
retailer, and the diagnosis was an aboslute disaster.
The engine self-destructed. I lost all four valves, piston caps, rods
and cylinders. The only thing that survived was the engine block.
All of this happened completely out of the blue, with absolutely no
previous sign of trouble at all, on a 3-year old car, with 45K miles.
The only possible explanation for this breakdown is manufacturing
defect.
My retailer contacted Spring Hill and asked them to put a new engine
in my car. Spring Hill responded by allowing the retailer to REBUILD
MY ENGINE and PAY FOR HALF THE WORK!!!!!!! I PAID $1172 FOR THE OTHER
HALF!!! Saturn - the "different kind of car company" - is different
alright. They allowed me to drive away in one of their 3-year old
cars, having paid $1172 to drive with a rebuilt engine and no warranty
coverage. Definitely different.
The horror story just gets worse. I come home from the retailer, and
called the customer satisfaction number in Spring Hill. I lodged a
complaint about my young car that had just received a non-warranted
rebuilt engine. I also wrote a cordial letter and Fedex-ed it to
Spring Hill, where it arrived at 8:45 a.m. the following Monday
morning.
The customer satisfaction rep from Spring Hill called me back the same
day (Mon). The rep asked me to reiterate my complaint. I did so,
then with obvious indifference he asked ABOUT WHAT I WAS
COMPLAINING!!! Apparently he couldn't see why I was dissatisfied with
a three-year-old car that cost me $1172 to drive with an unwarranted
rebuilt engine. This was not exactly my definition of customer
satisfaction or the "Saturn experience."
The rep called my retailer again the next day, in what appeared to me
to be a game of good-cop-bad-cop (I couldn't see what additional role
the retailer had to play, since I was dealing directly with Spring
Hill). The rep called me the following day, a Thursday, and
reiterated that Saturn had been GENEROUS to pay for 1/2 the repairs on
my car since it was out of warranty, that 1/2 was fair, and Saturn
would do no more to help me financially or otherwise. Furthermore,
the rep had never seen my letter although it had arrived in the mail
room over 72 hours earlier.
Folks - listen. Saturn sold me a defective vehicle, admitted as much
when they paid for 1/2 the work outside of warranty, and basically
told me that the rest of the liability for this drastic breakdown was
my own. Their handling of this lemon is absolutely outrageous.
Saturn's customer satisfaction, "different company" rhetoric is a
complete crock of B.S. This company effectively admitted that it sold
me a lemon, and that it was my own darn liability to pay for it.
Sounds an awful lot the old GM, which got the tar beat out of it by
the Japanese. If I were you I'd think twice (or three or four or five
times) about the "Saturn experience," "different kind of car company,"
or any perception of Saturn quality over any other make of car,
American or otherwise.
Steve Granata
sgra...@bellatlantic.net
http://members.aol.com/sgranata/
H.B. Elkins
sgra...@bellatlantic.net (Steve Granata) wrote:
>Three weeks ago I was driving down the freeway, took an exit, and the
>TIMING CHAIN SNAPPED. The car moved for about another 75 feet, and
>stopped dead in an intersection. I had it towed to my Saturn
>retailer, and the diagnosis was an aboslute disaster.
>The engine self-destructed. I lost all four valves, piston caps, rods
>and cylinders. The only thing that survived was the engine block.
>All of this happened completely out of the blue, with absolutely no
>previous sign of trouble at all, on a 3-year old car, with 45K miles.
>The only possible explanation for this breakdown is manufacturing
>defect.
What is it with the timing chain/belt and these four-cylinder engines?
A few years ago, I had a 1979 Old Cutlass Supreme with a small (260)
V-8. The timing chain broke on it, and the only thing that was
required was to put a new timing chain and timing gear in. None of
that major engine damage you suffered. Wonder why your engine was
gutted, but mine wasn't harmed, when the timing chain broke?
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
H.B. Elkins -- Winchester, KY
"You must have the courage to believe the truth!" -- Rush H. Limbaugh III
Kentucky Wildcats Basketball & #3 Dale Earnhardt -- A Championship Combination
hbel...@mis.net <or> HB...@aol.com
(Please note: there is a spam-buster in my reply-to address.
To reply by E-mail,use one of the addresses above)
http://www.users.mis.net/~hbelkins (site under construction
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Will Klein
Well, it sounds pretty fishy to me. I was told my 97 SC2 has a 149k mile
warantee for the timing chain. Seems to me that if it BROKE and RUINED
the engine before that time that I was covered for the chain and any
damage caused by it. Period. Has Saturn's policy changed to protect their
97 cars more then their older cars? I think you have rights that you
should explain. (this is all valid ofcourse only if you have all the
perscribed maintanance records)
Will
David Stafford
sgra...@bellatlantic.net (Steve Granata) wrote:
>I own a 1994 Saturn SL1 sedan, maroon (red?). Until three weeks ago
>it was one of the best cars I've ever driven. I kept it in top
>condition, with regular Saturn retailer service at 6,000 mile
>intervals. The car was 3 years old with 45,000 miles on it.
>Three weeks ago I was driving down the freeway, took an exit, and the
>TIMING CHAIN SNAPPED. The car moved for about another 75 feet, and
>stopped dead in an intersection. I had it towed to my Saturn
>retailer, and the diagnosis was an aboslute disaster.
>The engine self-destructed. I lost all four valves, piston caps, rods
>and cylinders. The only thing that survived was the engine block.
>All of this happened completely out of the blue, with absolutely no
>previous sign of trouble at all, on a 3-year old car, with 45K miles.
>The only possible explanation for this breakdown is manufacturing
>defect.
Did you buy the car new? If not, another possible explanation is that
the oil change interval was not adhered to by the previous owner.
Also, for my car, Saturn recommends 3K service intervals.
No, an offer to help with an out of warranty car does not constitute
admitting to anything. If you think so, does your state have lemon
laws? If so, read them. I think that you will be surprised at the
definition of lemon.
>Sounds an awful lot the old GM, which got the tar beat out of it by
>the Japanese. If I were you I'd think twice (or three or four or five
>times) about the "Saturn experience," "different kind of car company,"
>or any perception of Saturn quality over any other make of car,
>American or otherwise.
>Steve Granata
>sgra...@bellatlantic.net
>http://members.aol.com/sgranata/
Sounds like a real bummer. But, the car is out of warranty. Steve, the
car is out of warranty. Whether the timing chain did $2500 worth of
damage, I don't know. Seems like a lot, did you get another esimate?
Why did you not get a warranty on the rebuild.? I have had a few
engines rebuilt over the years and always got a warranty on the
rebuilt parts. Sorry to hear about the difficulty, a timing chain
should last much longer, looks like you should have paid attention to
the 3K oil change schedule. Cheapest insurance you can buy, regardless
of car type.
Hope you have better luck in future, David
Todd Lofton
Steve Granata (sgra...@bellatlantic.net) wrote:
[snip]
: MY ENGINE and PAY FOR HALF THE WORK!!!!!!! I PAID $1172 FOR THE OTHER
^^^^^
[snip]
What is the price of a new engine? This seems awfully high.
--
-----------------------------------------------------------------
* Todd Lofton *
* University of Nebraska - Lincoln *
* -> These opinions I express are mine and have absolutely <- *
* -> nothing to do with who I work for, with, or against. <- *
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"So once again politicians will quietly go about the business of
gathering patronage for the few."
-- The Cornhusker, 1934
Eric J. Simpson
H.B. Elkins wrote:
>
> sgra...@bellatlantic.net (Steve Granata) wrote:
>
> >Three weeks ago I was driving down the freeway, took an exit, and the
> >TIMING CHAIN SNAPPED. The car moved for about another 75 feet, and
> >stopped dead in an intersection. I had it towed to my Saturn
> >retailer, and the diagnosis was an aboslute disaster.
>
> >The engine self-destructed. I lost all four valves, piston caps, rods
> >and cylinders. The only thing that survived was the engine block.
> >All of this happened completely out of the blue, with absolutely no
> >previous sign of trouble at all, on a 3-year old car, with 45K miles.
> >The only possible explanation for this breakdown is manufacturing
> >defect.
>
> What is it with the timing chain/belt and these four-cylinder engines?
> A few years ago, I had a 1979 Old Cutlass Supreme with a small (260)
> V-8. The timing chain broke on it, and the only thing that was
> required was to put a new timing chain and timing gear in. None of
> that major engine damage you suffered. Wonder why your engine was
> gutted, but mine wasn't harmed, when the timing chain broke?
>
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
> H.B. Elkins -- Winchester, KY
> "You must have the courage to believe the truth!" -- Rush H. Limbaugh III
> Kentucky Wildcats Basketball & #3 Dale Earnhardt -- A Championship Combination
>
> hbel...@mis.net <or> HB...@aol.com
> (Please note: there is a spam-buster in my reply-to address.
> To reply by E-mail,use one of the addresses above)
> http://www.users.mis.net/~hbelkins (site under construction
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++
OHV (overhead valve) engines are less agressively cam'd than OHC
(overhead cam) engines. The small V8 in your Cutlass has its cam in the
crankcase below the heads and actuates the valves via pushrods. The cam
in the Saturn engine is actuated by dual camshafts that are situated
above the cylinder heads. This allows for a DOHC engine to have more
radical valve configuration in the combustion chamber, which in turn
allows for better breathing in the upper rev range, where you can expect
most smaller engines to make their power, because w/o cubic inches on
your side (like in the Cutlass), you have to breath a lot harder.
Often, in OHC designs, the pistons operate perilously close to
contacting the valves. If you look at the top of many pistons, you will
see manufactured in conturing that allow for cam clearance during normal
operation (yes, the cams come that close to the pistons in modern
engines). When (or if) the cam chain snaps, you have the valves and the
pistons operating out of sync. While in sync, the cams were perilously
close to contacting the pistons, out of sync, you can forget it... So
the piston will inevitably contact a cam, unless you are very lucky
indeed.
I'm sure Chris'll chime in on this one!
Let's hear it, Chris!!
-EJS
Randy E. Waldrep
Longer version: My wife was driving home from work and the oil warning
light lit up. When she got home I checked the oil dipstick and it was
dry. If my memory is correct, it took 3 1/2 quarts to fill. The car
sounded fine, no apparent damage.
About 2 weeks later the warning light lit again. As before the dipstick
was bone-dry and it took the same amount of oil to refill.
I took the car to the Saturn dealer and had the scheduled service
performed. I told them about the oil consumption problem.
They called that afternoon and said the car was ready. I asked about the
oil problem and they asked me to hold. A few minutes later, the service
rep said they had done the scheduled maintenance but had forgot to check
the oil problem. A couple hours later they called back and said that
their was a problem and would have to keep the car.
To quote from the ticket "found #3 cylinder burning oil, performed
compression test, removed cylinder head for diagnosis. Cyl #3 wrist pin
did not have retainers and wore grooves".
A humorous (now, not at the time) note- I told my wife that she should
pull over when the warning light comes on, that continue driving could
cause real damage. She told me she thought that the warning light meant
it was time to check the oil level.
BTW Saturn was real co-operative. They could of lied and said we ran the
car dry, and after looking at that dry dipstick, I probably would of
believed that I was SOL.
> In article <33459C...@worldnet.att.net>,
> r.wa...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
> > My wife has a 95 Saturn SL2. At 12,000 miles it started burning oil.
> > Short version of story- "factory defect", new engine, FEDEX lost first
> > replacement engine, 2 weeks without car, replaced under warranty.
>
> Maybe you can share how you convinced the dealer that the
> oil burning was abnormal? It seems that based on other posts
> about this problem, that being able to convince them that the
> oil burning was indeed a problem, was quite an achievment.
> Maybe the fact that the oil burning started so early helped you,
> and at 37K-50K, they wouldn't have done this for you, who knows?
>
Frederick & Patrick
Frank Yang wrote:
>
> Steve:
>
> It is a shame that the timing chain would snap at 45,000 miles. Then again,
> the Saturn's warranty only cover you 3 years or 36,000 miles. It is already
> very nice of them to pay for half of the cost. That's DIFFERENT from other
> car companies.
>
> Not to mention that this vehicle is maintained at 6,000 mile interval. Very
> few people drive in the condition that warrants 6,000 mile service. Most do
> at 3,000.
>
> Expect to pay every cent yourself had you bought another kind of car.
>
> - Frank
>
> In article <5iev7q$g...@world1.bawave.com>, sgra...@bellatlantic.net says...
> >
> >I own a 1994 Saturn SL1 sedan, maroon (red?). Until three weeks ago
> >it was one of the best cars I've ever driven. I kept it in top
> >condition, with regular Saturn retailer service at 6,000 mile
> >intervals. The car was 3 years old with 45,000 miles on it.
> >
> >Three weeks ago I was driving down the freeway, took an exit, and the
> >TIMING CHAIN SNAPPED. The car moved for about another 75 feet, and
> >stopped dead in an intersection. I had it towed to my Saturn
> >retailer, and the diagnosis was an aboslute disaster.
> >
> >The engine self-destructed. I lost all four valves, piston caps, rods
> >and cylinders. The only thing that survived was the engine block.
> >All of this happened completely out of the blue, with absolutely no
> >previous sign of trouble at all, on a 3-year old car, with 45K miles.
> >The only possible explanation for this breakdown is manufacturing
> >defect.
> >
> >My retailer contacted Spring Hill and asked them to put a new engine
> >in my car. Spring Hill responded by allowing the retailer to REBUILD
> >MY ENGINE and PAY FOR HALF THE WORK!!!!!!! I PAID $1172 FOR THE OTHER
> >Sounds an awful lot the old GM, which got the tar beat out of it by
> >the Japanese. If I were you I'd think twice (or three or four or five
> >times) about the "Saturn experience," "different kind of car company,"
> >or any perception of Saturn quality over any other make of car,
> >American or otherwise.
> >
> >
> >Steve Granata
> >sgra...@bellatlantic.net
> >http://members.aol.com/sgranata/
> >
I disagree with your assumptions. Saturn has a problem with its timing
chains. I recently replaced mine -- fortunately before it snapped --
but that was at 70,000 miles. I NEVER let the oil change interval go
longer than 4,000 miles, and it was usually right around 3,000 mile.
Timing chains should last longer than 70,000 miles. I've seen several
posts on this site about Saturn timing chains going prematurely. It
seems like it's a real problem.
Frank Yang
Steve Granata
Will Klein <wkl...@mail.idt.net> wrote:
>Well, it sounds pretty fishy to me. I was told my 97 SC2 has a 149k mile
>warantee for the timing chain. Seems to me that if it BROKE and RUINED
>the engine before that time that I was covered for the chain and any
>damage caused by it. Period. Has Saturn's policy changed to protect their
>97 cars more then their older cars? I think you have rights that you
My car came with a 3/36 bumper-to-bumper warranty. Nothing more,
nothing less. As Saturn so politely reminded me, I was lucky they
gave me the gratuity of 1/2 payment for my timing chain disaster. If
they increased the timing chain warranty from 36K to 149K in 1997,
kind of makes you wonder if the timing chain might not have been a
problem for them on past model year cars.
>should explain. (this is all valid ofcourse only if you have all the
>perscribed maintanance records)
Car was maintained according to Saturn-suggested 6,000 mile service
schedule; all work done by Saturn retailers; Saturn has all
maintenance records on-line in its central computer database.
Steve Granata
pa...@netcom.ca (monk) wrote:
>You have a consumer product with no warranty protection and you want
>some else to fix it when it breaks ? Nice try
You're absolutely right I do! I have a consumer product, a 1994
Saturn SL sedan, that came with a 3/36 warranty. The car
self-destructed in my face 9,000 miles after the warranty expired.
Simply put, I expected one hell of a lot higher quality from this
supposedly 'reinvented' American car company. Instead they sold me a
lemon. I bought my consumer product with an industry standard
warranty, and the confidence that the product would last for years
after the warranty expired. That is why I am furious at Saturn.
In spite of any warranty, they're obligated to back those few 'lemon'
products they sell each model year. Instead they stuck me with their
lemon and told what I could do with my $1172 liability. Their image
of a 'reinvented' higher-quality American car company is a consumer
rip-off. My "Saturn ownership experience" has been enough to allow me
to see right through this complete B.S.
Cyric64
I did not see these responses. I'm glad there are some intelligent
life-forms in the galaxy who realize Saturn is not going to wipe
customers' rear-ends for them.
Cyr...@aol.com
Visit my website at members.aol.com/cyric64
Cyric64
>>I own a 1994 Saturn SL1 sedan, maroon (red?). Until three weeks ago
it was one of the best cars I've ever driven. I kept it in top
condition, with regular Saturn retailer service at 6,000 mile
intervals. The car was 3 years old with 45,000 miles on it.<<
I have a few comments here. Our esteamed :) author fails to mention a few
things. First of all, his/her vehicle is out of warranty coverage.
Should Saturn paid for the repair? Yes they should have......BUT....look
above dear friends...this person changed their oil every 6000 miles! Not
every 3,000 miles as the cars maintainance schedual clearly dictates.
If you run a car on dirty oil...guess what? It breaks! If your car burns
oil, and you never pull out your dipstick and fill up on oil between your
6,000 mile oil change chances are there is less oil then there should be
in the engine. Let's see, 1 quart per 2000 miles is normal oil
consumption. If this person never added any oil then by the time he
brought to car in for an oil change he/she probably had 1 quart of oil
left in a four quart engine. Timing chains are metal, they are inside the
engine...they require LUBRICATION to work. Dirty oil, or to little oil
will cause the chain to become UNlubricated and wear out. Once it wears
out from METAL GRINDING AGAINST METAL....it BREAKS!
Because Saturn is a different kind of company, they were nice enough to
pay for half of your new engine, considered your neglect of your vehicle
caused the breakdown. Pick up your owners handbook and turn to the
chapter on maintainance. I'll wait.
See. Change engine oil and filter....EVERY 3,000 MILES.
Rod Murray
> Folks - listen. Saturn sold me a defective vehicle, admitted as much
> when they paid for 1/2 the work outside of warranty,
They weren't admitting any such thing. They were just going out of their
way to try to keep you as a satisfied customer. Albeit this proved to be
too difficult a task.
rjm
1993 SL1 with 128k miles and very few problems.
--
Conventional wisdom says, "You get what you pay for" With cigars however this is not necessarily true. I have smoked many a $5 cigar that had neither the flavor nor the quality of construction found in my favorite $1 cigar.
sch...@hotmail.com
> it was one of the best cars I've ever driven. I kept it in top
> condition, with regular Saturn retailer service at 6,000 mile
> intervals. The car was 3 years old with 45,000 miles on it.
>
> TIMING CHAIN SNAPPED. The car moved for about another 75 feet, and
> stopped dead in an intersection. I had it towed to my Saturn
> retailer, and the diagnosis was an aboslute disaster.
>
> The engine self-destructed. I lost all four valves, piston caps, rods
> and cylinders. The only thing that survived was the engine block.
> All of this happened completely out of the blue, with absolutely no
> previous sign of trouble at all, on a 3-year old car, with 45K miles.
> The only possible explanation for this breakdown is manufacturing
> defect.
Come on. The car is 3 years old, you didn't buy an extended
warranty, and you want the manufacturer to pay for repairs?
Yes, when a timing chain or belt breaks on an interference engine
it essentially destroys it. The timing belt is in some ways better than
a chain. Yes, it will cost you $100-200 every 60K miles, but that's
cheap insurance. You should also replace anything driven by the same
belt (if a water pump siezes then even a new belt can break). It is
also quieter. Of course the best idea is to buy a car with a
non-interference engine so if the belt breaks, there is likely to be
little damage (but few people know the difference, and fewer
still would base their buying decision on this).
It most likely was not a manufacturing defect in the strict sense
of the word. It is more likely a design flaw. Also, with 6000 mile
services rather than 3000, were you certain to keep enough oil
in the engine? On a regular car, 6000 mile intervals are adequate
for most drivers, but on a Saturn 3000 mile services are a good idea,
if only to be certain that for drivers that don't check their oil, their
is enough oil in the engine.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
Xiao-Long Li
In article <334DAE...@mail.erols.com>,
Frederick & Patrick <sly...@mail.erols.com> wrote:
>I disagree with your assumptions. Saturn has a problem with its timing
>chains. I recently replaced mine -- fortunately before it snapped --
>but that was at 70,000 miles. I NEVER let the oil change interval go
>longer than 4,000 miles, and it was usually right around 3,000 mile.
>Timing chains should last longer than 70,000 miles. I've seen several
>posts on this site about Saturn timing chains going prematurely. It
>seems like it's a real problem.
Only if you don't change oil every 3,000 miles! Which is what you should
have done anyway.
Saturn strongly suggest you to change every 3,000 miles if you drive it
hard to drive it in the city. The only time that you don't have to is
when you going on a long trip and cruising on the highway.
--
Xiao-Long Li (Shaw) :)
Undergraduate EE, School of Electrical Engineering & Computer Engineering
E-mail: gt6...@prism.gatech.edu Mailbox: 336374, Georgia Tech Station
Georgia Institute of Technology, Atlanta Georgia, 30332-1675
Rod Murray
The car was out of warranty. Saturn offered a 3 year 36k miles warranty
and you bought the car with that understanding. There are going to be
cars that break down at 5k, 20k, 35,999, 36,001, 90k, 180k, and 300k
miles. It's a bell curve and Saturn drew the line at 36K and you agreed
to that when you bought it. Same thing for Honda, Toyota, Ford, Chevy
ect... The difference is that you have a snowballs chance of getting
Honda or Toyota to pay half for their out of warranty catastrophies. It's
just reality. It's not a happy thing for people who are unlucky enough to
fall on your section of the bell curve but that group of people IS going
to exist and it IS going to exist for all makes of cars.
In my opinion Saturn was very generous to pay for half. Their obligation
to pay ended at 36k. They went above and beyond their obligation. Did you
think that the 36k limitation on the warranty wasn't real? Did you think
the car secretly had a 72k miles warranty? Or do you not understand
statistics and realize that all of us, no matter what car we buy, stand a
statistical chance of having a major malfunction shortly after the
warranty expires?
rjm
sch...@hotmail.com
In article <19970411132...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
cyr...@aol.com (Cyric64) wrote:
>
> >>I own a 1994 Saturn SL1 sedan, maroon (red?). Until three weeks ago
> it was one of the best cars I've ever driven. I kept it in top
> condition, with regular Saturn retailer service at 6,000 mile
> intervals. The car was 3 years old with 45,000 miles on it.<<
>
> oil, and you never pull out your dipstick and fill up on oil between your
> 6,000 mile oil change chances are there is less oil then there should be
> in the engine.
>Let's see, 1 quart per 2000 miles is normal oil consumption.
Hmm, I guess if a lie is repeated often enough, some people DO
actually believe it!! This ISN't normal oil consumption. It may be the
rate of consumption that's actually happening to many people, but it
certainly isn't normal by any stretch of the imagination.
In any case, nowhere did the person whose chain broke say that he
never checked the oil between service intervals. And 6000-7500 mile
service intervals are normal for most cars, and I believe that even
the Saturn maintenance schedule has a 6000 mile option. Consumer
Reports' extensive testing of oils after various mileages, showed no
benefit to 3000 mile versus 6000 mile changes.
AND
Frank Yang <us03...@no-spam.mindspring.com> wrote in article
> Expect to pay every cent yourself had you bought another kind of car.
Hmm, timing belts (replaced as scheduled) or timing chains rarely break
on most cars. So I doubt if he had bought another kind of car he would
have had to pay anything himself if he had adhered to the maintenance
schedule. I keep reading in this newsgroup of timing chains wearing out
and needing to be replaced. Either it's due to insufficient oil caused by
the oil burning problem, or it's some other design flaw.
It sounds like that to be safe, along with 3000 mile oil changes, owners
should replace their timing chains every 36000 miles unless they have an
extended warranty. A few hundred dollars of maintenance may save
thousands of dollars in repairs.
Steve Granata
tlo...@unlinfo.unl.edu (Todd Lofton) wrote:
>Steve Granata (sgra...@bellatlantic.net) wrote:
>[snip]
>: MY ENGINE and PAY FOR HALF THE WORK!!!!!!! I PAID $1172 FOR THE OTHER
> ^^^^^
>[snip]
>What is the price of a new engine? This seems awfully high.
I never learned the price of a new engine. I was in too much of a
state of shock to ask. The retailer asked Saturn to put in a new
engine, and Saturn came back offering to pay for 1/2 the work to
rebuild the existing engine. Therefore I accepted the offer rather
than pay for entire new engine myself. The total amount of work to
rebuild the engine was $2344, of which my share was 1/2.
This is an absolute outrage by anyone's standards. And Saturn Corp.
in Spring Hill, TN simply just doesn't gave a %$#^&. They were
perfectly happy to leave me with this repair bill, and remind how they
sold me a car that self-destructed 9,000 miles after the warranty
expired.
Steve Granata
sgra...@bellatlantic.net
http://members.aol.com/sgranata/
Steve Granata
Frederick & Patrick <sly...@mail.erols.com> wrote:
>Frank Yang wrote:
>> It is a shame that the timing chain would snap at 45,000 miles. Then again,
>> the Saturn's warranty only cover you 3 years or 36,000 miles. It is already
>> very nice of them to pay for half of the cost. That's DIFFERENT from other
>> car companies.
I disagree, but won't argue the point.
>> Not to mention that this vehicle is maintained at 6,000 mile interval. Very
>> few people drive in the condition that warrants 6,000 mile service. Most do
>> at 3,000.
I drive about 1,500 miles monthly, so changed the oil about every four
months. I might remind you that suggested maintenance for non-rugged
usage is a 6,000 mile interval.
>Timing chains should last longer than 70,000 miles. I've seen several
>posts on this site about Saturn timing chains going prematurely. It
>seems like it's a real problem.
It sure seems that Saturn is remiss to issue recalls. Besides my
timing chain disaster, I dropped a piston at about 20K (early 1995).
My retailer told me the rod had varnished because of a residual
chemical build-up in the engine, based on winter formula unleaded gas
used in the Northeast U.S. They ran a chemical abrasive through the
engine to clean it, and rebuilt the piston. Total cost $800, under
warranty.
The explanation was that the rods hugged the valves very closely, for
maximum fuel efficiency and engine performance. Saturn had not
anticipated chemical residual build-up from the NE winter fuel
formula, and many people had similar breakdowns.
This sounds an awful lot like a good case for a recall, doesn't it? I
wonder if my timing chain break (which happend about 25K later) didn't
result from a similar problem. After all couldn't varnished rods
stress the timing chain, causing to break? It looks a lot like Saturn
still has a lot of debugging to go to perfect its product line.
Steve Granata
rod_m...@iegate.mitre.org (Rod Murray) wrote:
>In article <5iev7q$g...@world1.bawave.com>, sgra...@bellatlantic.net
>(Steve Granata) wrote:
>> Folks - listen. Saturn sold me a defective vehicle, admitted as much
>> when they paid for 1/2 the work outside of warranty,
>They weren't admitting any such thing. They were just going out of their
>way to try to keep you as a satisfied customer. Albeit this proved to be
>too difficult a task.
Why don't you write us back when your 3 year old car blows up in your
face, and you pay $1172 to drive it with an unwarranted rebuilt engine
for the rest of its life. Then we'll see how much a satisfied
customer you are.
Iceman
I agree with Steve--Saturn should have picked up the whole bill. Going
halfway is not different, it's usual. If Saturn truly wants to "exceed
customer expectations" and "build customer enthusiasm", they should be
willing to suck up an additional $1200.
Just imagine how different Steve's e-mail would have been had Saturn
handled the situation that way! Instead, we have another example of Saturn
acting just like any other company, another disgruntled customer (and
former Saturn enthusiast), and another negative story to tell when people
ask "So, is Saturn really better?"
I think Frank is also missing the point that it's not JUST the money, but
the way he was treated by the retailer and especially the Spring Hill
representative. They were slimy and rude, just like you'd expect from
other "typical" car companies. The problem for Saturn is that other
companies have learned they can't be typical anymore, so now Saturn's
customer service is actually lagging behind...
Rick
Frank Yang <us03...@no-spam.mindspring.com> wrote in article
<5ijv53$f...@camel3.mindspring.com>...
|
| Steve:
|
| It is a shame that the timing chain would snap at 45,000 miles. Then
again,
| the Saturn's warranty only cover you 3 years or 36,000 miles. It is
already
| very nice of them to pay for half of the cost. That's DIFFERENT from
other
| car companies.
|
| Not to mention that this vehicle is maintained at 6,000 mile interval.
Very
| few people drive in the condition that warrants 6,000 mile service. Most
do
| at 3,000.
|
| Expect to pay every cent yourself had you bought another kind of car.
|
| - Frank
Frank Yang
In article <334DAE...@mail.erols.com>, sly...@mail.erols.com says...
>
>
>Frank Yang wrote:
>>
>> Steve:
>>
>> It is a shame that the timing chain would snap at 45,000 miles. Then
again,
>> the Saturn's warranty only cover you 3 years or 36,000 miles. It is
already
>> very nice of them to pay for half of the cost. That's DIFFERENT from
other
>> car companies.
>>
>> Not to mention that this vehicle is maintained at 6,000 mile interval.
Very
>> few people drive in the condition that warrants 6,000 mile service. Most
do
>> at 3,000.
>>
>> Expect to pay every cent yourself had you bought another kind of car.
>>
>> - Frank
>>
>> >
>> >I own a 1994 Saturn SL1 sedan, maroon (red?). Until three weeks ago
>> >it was one of the best cars I've ever driven. I kept it in top
>> >condition, with regular Saturn retailer service at 6,000 mile
>> >intervals. The car was 3 years old with 45,000 miles on it.
>> >
>> >TIMING CHAIN SNAPPED. The car moved for about another 75 feet, and
>> >stopped dead in an intersection. I had it towed to my Saturn
>> >retailer, and the diagnosis was an aboslute disaster.
>> >
>> >The engine self-destructed. I lost all four valves, piston caps, rods
>> >and cylinders. The only thing that survived was the engine block.
>> >All of this happened completely out of the blue, with absolutely no
>> >previous sign of trouble at all, on a 3-year old car, with 45K miles.
>> >The only possible explanation for this breakdown is manufacturing
>> >defect.
>> >
>> >in my car. Spring Hill responded by allowing the retailer to REBUILD
>> >told me that the rest of the liability for this drastic breakdown was
>> >my own. Their handling of this lemon is absolutely outrageous.
>> >Saturn's customer satisfaction, "different company" rhetoric is a
>> >complete crock of B.S. This company effectively admitted that it sold
>> >me a lemon, and that it was my own darn liability to pay for it.
>> >
>> >Sounds an awful lot the old GM, which got the tar beat out of it by
>> >the Japanese. If I were you I'd think twice (or three or four or five
>> >times) about the "Saturn experience," "different kind of car company,"
>> >or any perception of Saturn quality over any other make of car,
>> >American or otherwise.
>> >
>> >
>chains. I recently replaced mine -- fortunately before it snapped --
>but that was at 70,000 miles. I NEVER let the oil change interval go
>longer than 4,000 miles, and it was usually right around 3,000 mile.
>
>posts on this site about Saturn timing chains going prematurely. It
>seems like it's a real problem.
Consumer Reports' owner quality survey seems to tell a different story.
I personally expect timing chain to last around 100,000 miles, but that's
average. You might see some last up to 150,000 or some down to 50,000. I
do sympathize with those few who had their timing chains snapped.
Actually, I've been around this newsgroup for a long time and never skipped
a post. This is the first time that I heard about timing chain premature
failure.
- Frank
Xiao-Long Li
In article <8607954...@dejanews.com>, <sch...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <19970411132...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
>It sounds like that to be safe, along with 3000 mile oil changes, owners
>should replace their timing chains every 36000 miles unless they have an
>extended warranty. A few hundred dollars of maintenance may save
>thousands of dollars in repairs.
Most people who change oil every 3,000 miles don't usually have the timing
chain problem. Why is that? That is what you should have done.
Replacing timing chain every 36000 miles is non-sense.
Xiao-Long Li
In article <5imffd$p...@world1.bawave.com>,
Steve Granata <sgra...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>This is an absolute outrage by anyone's standards. And Saturn Corp.
>in Spring Hill, TN simply just doesn't gave a %$#^&. They were
>perfectly happy to leave me with this repair bill, and remind how they
>sold me a car that self-destructed 9,000 miles after the warranty
>expired.
What are you talking about? Your car is out of Warranty and you are lucky
to get half of your bill paid for. Manufacture pay for repairs that is
out of warranty rarely happens. Why should Saturn? Remember that your
car is out of warranty, and no car manufacture would fully cover it. That
is THE meaning of warranty.
wmg'the_nu...@cornell.edu
>pa...@netcom.ca (monk) wrote:
>
>>You have a consumer product with no warranty protection and you want
>>some else to fix it when it breaks ? Nice try
>
>You're absolutely right I do! I have a consumer product, a 1994
>Saturn SL sedan, that came with a 3/36 warranty. The car
>self-destructed in my face 9,000 miles after the warranty expired.
Yes, 9,000 miles AFTER the warranty EXPIRED. That's the point. Your
car was not under warrenty.
>
>Simply put, I expected one hell of a lot higher quality from this
>supposedly 'reinvented' American car company. Instead they sold me a
>lemon. I bought my consumer product with an industry standard
>warranty, and the confidence that the product would last for years
>after the warranty expired. That is why I am furious at Saturn.
>
>In spite of any warranty, they're obligated to back those few 'lemon'
>products they sell each model year. Instead they stuck me with their
>lemon and told what I could do with my $1172 liability. Their image
>of a 'reinvented' higher-quality American car company is a consumer
>rip-off. My "Saturn ownership experience" has been enough to allow me
>to see right through this complete B.S.
A broken timing chain at 45,000 miles does not make a car a "lemon."
It makes you very unlucky. For every person in your (unfortunate)
situation there is another that will push their timing chain to
100,000+ miles with no problems. There is some element of randomness
in the life of a timing chain--a few of them will fail at 45,000
miles. A few will last 150,000.
Xiao-Long Li
In article <5img9h$p...@world1.bawave.com>,
Steve Granata <sgra...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>I drive about 1,500 miles monthly, so changed the oil about every four
>months. I might remind you that suggested maintenance for non-rugged
>usage is a 6,000 mile interval.
No. According to Saturn, it is RECOMMANDED that you change oil every
3,000 miles and you should change your oil every 3,000 miles or 3 month
whichever comes first if you drive at a high speed or do a lot of city
driving. So, for most drivers, they should change oil every 3,000 miles!
James Wing
Steve Granata wrote:
>
> I own a 1994 Saturn SL1 sedan, maroon (red?). Until three weeks ago
> it was one of the best cars I've ever driven. I kept it in top
> condition, with regular Saturn retailer service at 6,000 mile
> intervals. The car was 3 years old with 45,000 miles on it.
> The engine self-destructed. I lost all four valves, piston caps, rods
> and cylinders. The only thing that survived was the engine block.
> All of this happened completely out of the blue, with absolutely no
> previous sign of trouble at all, on a 3-year old car, with 45K miles.
> The only possible explanation for this breakdown is manufacturing
> defect.
>
> The customer satisfaction rep from Spring Hill called me back the same
> day (Mon). The rep asked me to reiterate my complaint. I did so,
> then with obvious indifference he asked ABOUT WHAT I WAS
> COMPLAINING!!! Apparently he couldn't see why I was dissatisfied with
> a three-year-old car that cost me $1172 to drive with an unwarranted
> rebuilt engine. This was not exactly my definition of customer
> satisfaction or the "Saturn experience."
> Folks - listen. Saturn sold me a defective vehicle, admitted as much
> when they paid for 1/2 the work outside of warranty, and basically
> told me that the rest of the liability for this drastic breakdown was
> my own. Their handling of this lemon is absolutely outrageous.
> Saturn's customer satisfaction, "different company" rhetoric is a
> complete crock of B.S. This company effectively admitted that it sold
> me a lemon, and that it was my own darn liability to pay for it.
WHAT A CRYBABY!!
Timing chains are like light bulbs. You don't know when they are going
to fail. Some bulbs last for ten years, some for ten seconds. There is
a curve, representing there likelyhood of failure before any given point
in time. It's simple probability. You got unlucky.
You know when you buy a car that things can go wrong with it. As with
many things in life, you calculate the risk, do a little cost/benefit
analysis, and make descisions accordingly. You decided not to buy the
extended warranty. In other words, you decided that you would prefer to
risk a large loss in exchange for not spending the extra $900 (or
whatever the extended warranty costs). When you go to Las Vegas and put
your money on black, do you complain to the casino when the ball lands
on red, and expect your money back? You're a big boy with free will.
You were offered a warranty at a price and you chose not to buy it.
$1172!! BFD!! You got off cheap. How much more is that that the
extended warranty would have cost? (and you got to use the money for
three years). It sounds to me that your gamble about broke even in the
end, only because Saturn bent over backward for you and gave you
something for nothing. And you are still not happy. I'm sure they
regret having been so generous with you.
And, after complaining so much about the consequences of your chosing
not to buy the extended warranty on the car, you chose not to buy a
warranty on the rebuilt engine. Actually, that was a good choice in
your case, since you have already discovered that if you whine enough,
you can get someone else to pay for half of the repairs even when its
not covered. Congratulations, you have made an ass of yourself.
Sincerely,
James Wing
Xiao-Long Li
In article <01bc463c$48cb5b00$de92...@iceman.palmnet.net>,
Iceman <ice...@palmnet.net> wrote:
> I agree with Steve--Saturn should have picked up the whole bill. Going
>halfway is not different, it's usual. If Saturn truly wants to "exceed
>customer expectations" and "build customer enthusiasm", they should be
>willing to suck up an additional $1200.
Different doesn't mean paying for everything that is out of warranty. I
am already impressed that Saturn is even picking up half the bill. Have
you ever tried to get something fixed after the warranty. Try it in
Dodge, Nissan, Mazda or Honda dealer sometime, you will see the
difference.
> Just imagine how different Steve's e-mail would have been had Saturn
>handled the situation that way! Instead, we have another example of Saturn
>acting just like any other company, another disgruntled customer (and
>former Saturn enthusiast), and another negative story to tell when people
>ask "So, is Saturn really better?"
I doubted it. He is unhappy either way. He is angry that he "got a
lemon".
> I think Frank is also missing the point that it's not JUST the money, but
>the way he was treated by the retailer and especially the Spring Hill
>representative. They were slimy and rude, just like you'd expect from
>other "typical" car companies. The problem for Saturn is that other
>companies have learned they can't be typical anymore, so now Saturn's
>customer service is actually lagging behind...
Please, he has been treated a lot better than any other dealers that sell
cars under $20k.
bo...@hotmail.com
In article <5ilukr$g...@acmex.gatech.edu>,
gt6...@prism.gatech.edu (Xiao-Long Li) wrote:
>
> In article <334DAE...@mail.erols.com>,
> >chains. I recently replaced mine -- fortunately before it snapped --
> >but that was at 70,000 miles. I NEVER let the oil change interval go
> >longer than 4,000 miles, and it was usually right around 3,000 mile.
>
> >Timing chains should last longer than 70,000 miles. I've seen several
> >posts on this site about Saturn timing chains going prematurely. It
> >seems like it's a real problem.
>
> have done anyway.
>
> Saturn strongly suggest you to change every 3,000 miles if you drive it
> hard to drive it in the city. The only time that you don't have to is
> when you going on a long trip and cruising on the highway.
>
I have to disagree on that one. There is definitely a design flaw of
somesort regarding the timing chain on Saturns. Mine was replaced at
about 45K (luckily it didn't 'snap' and tear apart the engine) and
others, many others, have posted the same issue here. I find it hard to
believe it's all oil (or lack thereof) related! I know mine wasn't.
Kevin
ri...@interactive.spamthis.net
bo...@hotmail.com wrote:
:P~In article <5ilukr$g...@acmex.gatech.edu>,
:P~ gt6...@prism.gatech.edu (Xiao-Long Li) wrote:
:P~>
:P~> In article <334DAE...@mail.erols.com>,
:P~> Frederick & Patrick <sly...@mail.erols.com> wrote:
:P~> >I disagree with your assumptions. Saturn has a problem with its timing
:P~> >chains. I recently replaced mine -- fortunately before it snapped --
:P~> >but that was at 70,000 miles. I NEVER let the oil change interval go
:P~> >longer than 4,000 miles, and it was usually right around 3,000 mile.
:P~>
:P~> >Timing chains should last longer than 70,000 miles. I've seen several
:P~> >posts on this site about Saturn timing chains going prematurely. It
:P~> >seems like it's a real problem.
:P~>
:P~> Only if you don't change oil every 3,000 miles! Which is what you should
:P~> have done anyway.
:P~>
:P~> Saturn strongly suggest you to change every 3,000 miles if you drive it
:P~> hard to drive it in the city. The only time that you don't have to is
:P~> when you going on a long trip and cruising on the highway.
:P~>
:P~I have to disagree on that one. There is definitely a design flaw of
:P~somesort regarding the timing chain on Saturns. Mine was replaced at
:P~about 45K (luckily it didn't 'snap' and tear apart the engine) and
:P~others, many others, have posted the same issue here. I find it hard to
:P~believe it's all oil (or lack thereof) related! I know mine wasn't.
What "many others" would that be? I have seen a few posts concerning
timing chains, not many. And of those, the majority were related to
Saturns of older vintages that did indeed have a design flaw in the
lubrication of the timing chain (which Saturn has acknowledged and
corrected).
If you'll open up your eyes and peruse other newsgroups, you'll note
that they are generally outlets for people who feel they have some
gripe and a sprinkling of folks that like the product. That seems
true regardless of the item/product being discussed. Folks that
think "this is the best widget I've ever had" are generally too busy
enjoying their widget to spend time writing anonymous missives on
usenet.
I find it curious to note that, as usual, someone with something
they feel is a genuine gripe feels the need to post anonymously.
Regards,
Chris
--
Christopher Mauritz | For info on internet access:
ri...@interactive.net | finger/mail in...@interactive.net OR
IBS Interactive, Inc. | http://www.interactive.net/
Frank Yang
In article <01bc463c$48cb5b00$de92...@iceman.palmnet.net>,
ice...@palmnet.net says...
>
> I agree with Steve--Saturn should have picked up the whole bill.
Going
>halfway is not different, it's usual. If Saturn truly wants to "exceed
>customer expectations" and "build customer enthusiasm", they should be
>willing to suck up an additional $1200.
>handled the situation that way! Instead, we have another example of Saturn
>acting just like any other company, another disgruntled customer (and
>former Saturn enthusiast), and another negative story to tell when people
>ask "So, is Saturn really better?"
money, but
>the way he was treated by the retailer and especially the Spring Hill
>representative. They were slimy and rude, just like you'd expect from
>other "typical" car companies. The problem for Saturn is that other
>companies have learned they can't be typical anymore, so now Saturn's
>customer service is actually lagging behind...
>
>
Rick, I don't want to start a flaming war, but you are the one who has
totally missed the point here.
If you had read the original post, you'd see that this guy's Saturn is way
out of warranty, changed oil at 6k interval, not at the 3k that most of us
have to follow, and yet Saturn was nice enough to pick up half of the tab.
Still, this guy screams on top of his lungs to demand Saturn to pay the
entire cost. Keep in mind, the timing chain is lubricated by engine oil.
With any OTHER car company, he can expect these responses: "The car is
already out of warranty", "you should've changed the oil at 3k interval",
"pay this and sign here", "bother us again and we'll call the sheriff to haul
you out".
The way I see it, this guy was trying to skimp on $29 oil change and end up
with a big repair bill. This is a classic "penny wise, pound foolish" lesson
for all of us. I think Saturn has done above and beyond its duty for his
unfortunate situation. I challenge other car companies to come up to this
level.
- Frank
Steve Granata
gt6...@prism.gatech.edu (Xiao-Long Li) wrote:
>In article <01bc463c$48cb5b00$de92...@iceman.palmnet.net>,
>Iceman <ice...@palmnet.net> wrote:
>> Just imagine how different Steve's e-mail would have been had Saturn
>>handled the situation that way! Instead, we have another example of Saturn
>>acting just like any other company, another disgruntled customer (and
>>former Saturn enthusiast), and another negative story to tell when people
>>ask "So, is Saturn really better?"
>I doubted it. He is unhappy either way. He is angry that he "got a
>lemon".
You're right, anyone would be unhappy who had a car blow up at 45K.
However the color of my lemon would be a lot less yellow if Saturn had
backed its product fully. I'm afraid that 9K past the 3/36 warranty
just doesn't cut it as acceptable for the kind of blowup my car took.
My friends joke that the car was engineered to last just past the 36K
warranty. Those kinds of comments are hurting Saturn's reputation a
LOT more than the extra $1200 they could have spent to treat me like a
valued customer.
Steve Granata
us03...@no-spam.mindspring.com (Frank Yang) wrote:
>If you had read the original post, you'd see that this guy's Saturn is way
>out of warranty, changed oil at 6k interval, not at the 3k that most of us
>have to follow, and yet Saturn was nice enough to pick up half of the tab.
>Still, this guy screams on top of his lungs to demand Saturn to pay the
>entire cost. Keep in mind, the timing chain is lubricated by engine oil.
>The way I see it, this guy was trying to skimp on $29 oil change and end up
>with a big repair bill. This is a classic "penny wise, pound foolish" lesson
>for all of us. I think Saturn has done above and beyond its duty for his
>unfortunate situation. I challenge other car companies to come up to this
>level.
In justifying its 1/2 payment, one of Saturn's comments was that I'd
kept the car well maintained, including chaging the oil every 5500 to
6000 miles. That is one of the reasons they gave for paying 1/2,
instead of leaving me with the whole bill.
I hope this is enough to put a stop to this argument. If Saturn
requires 3000 mile oil changes for its timing chains to survive, than
it darn well better tell the owners!
Steve Granata
Thank you SO much, Iceman. - - I'm afraid I came across pretty surly
on this thread, but I am one seriously disgruntled Saturn customer.
Thank you for making my point exactly, and saying it nicely, which I
am unable to do.
Steve Granata
"Iceman" <ice...@palmnet.net> wrote:
> I agree with Steve--Saturn should have picked up the whole bill. Going
>halfway is not different, it's usual. If Saturn truly wants to "exceed
>customer expectations" and "build customer enthusiasm", they should be
>willing to suck up an additional $1200.
> Just imagine how different Steve's e-mail would have been had Saturn
>handled the situation that way! Instead, we have another example of Saturn
>acting just like any other company, another disgruntled customer (and
>former Saturn enthusiast), and another negative story to tell when people
>ask "So, is Saturn really better?"
> I think Frank is also missing the point that it's not JUST the money, but
>the way he was treated by the retailer and especially the Spring Hill
>representative. They were slimy and rude, just like you'd expect from
>other "typical" car companies. The problem for Saturn is that other
>companies have learned they can't be typical anymore, so now Saturn's
>customer service is actually lagging behind...
sh...@spammers.head
In article <5ip8k9$c...@acmex.gatech.edu>,
gt6...@prism.gatech.edu (Xiao-Long Li) wrote:
#
#Different doesn't mean paying for everything that is out of warranty. I
#am already impressed that Saturn is even picking up half the bill. Have
#you ever tried to get something fixed after the warranty. Try it in
#Dodge, Nissan, Mazda or Honda dealer sometime, you will see the
#difference.
#
Honda paid for an out of warranty muffler on my '86 Integra (40,000 miles) and a
leaking gas tank (not a recall) when my '80 Accord had 80,000 miles. I also know
others who have gotten full or partial reimbursements from Honda and Toyota when
parts failed unreasonably soon after the waranty had expired.
Xiao-Long Li
In article <5is5ih$i...@world1.bawave.com>,
Steve Granata <sgra...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>You're right, anyone would be unhappy who had a car blow up at 45K.
>However the color of my lemon would be a lot less yellow if Saturn had
>backed its product fully. I'm afraid that 9K past the 3/36 warranty
>just doesn't cut it as acceptable for the kind of blowup my car took.
Well, the thing that I don't believe is that a Time Chain would break
without any warning at all. If you would have change oil every 3,000
miles, it would not happen this early.
Bill Kilgore
Steve Granata wrote:
> In justifying its 1/2 payment, one of Saturn's comments was that I'd
> kept the car well maintained, including chaging the oil every 5500 to
> 6000 miles. That is one of the reasons they gave for paying 1/2,
> instead of leaving me with the whole bill.
>
> I hope this is enough to put a stop to this argument. If Saturn
> requires 3000 mile oil changes for its timing chains to survive, than
> it darn well better tell the owners!
>
I sympathize with your situation, but I fail to follow your logic above.
Saturn's action could be interpreted as "We'll meet you halfway because
you obviously took good care of the car"; or as "We'll only pay half
because you only changed the oil every 6k -- had you changed it every
3k, we would have covered the whole repair."
Are you implying the latter? Was that statement actually made?
--
( To email me, remove ".killspam" from my address. )
David Stafford
>In justifying its 1/2 payment, one of Saturn's comments was that I'd
>kept the car well maintained, including chaging the oil every 5500 to
>6000 miles. That is one of the reasons they gave for paying 1/2,
>instead of leaving me with the whole bill.
>I hope this is enough to put a stop to this argument. If Saturn
>requires 3000 mile oil changes for its timing chains to survive, than
>it darn well better tell the owners!
>Steve Granata
>sgra...@bellatlantic.net
>http://members.aol.com/sgranata/
It says in the Owners Manual to change the oil etc. every 3000 miles.
That is what every prudent owner would do. I never had any question
whatsoever about that. Why would you? Just asking.......David
"Cinnamon Girl" 97 SL
Xiao-Long Li
In article <5is5q8$i...@world1.bawave.com>,
Steve Granata <sgra...@bellatlantic.net> wrote:
>I hope this is enough to put a stop to this argument. If Saturn
>requires 3000 mile oil changes for its timing chains to survive, than
>it darn well better tell the owners!
Saturn DOES tell you to change oil every 3,000 miles if you drive it hard
and fast or do a lot of city driving.
If you did it, then you should have maintained it well. Because I have
noticed that most Saturn owners drive their cars pretty hard or pretty
fast.
sch...@hotmail.com
In article <5ik6nu$g...@world1.bawave.com>,
sgra...@bellatlantic.net (Steve Granata) wrote:
> Will Klein <wkl...@mail.idt.net> wrote:
>
> >Well, it sounds pretty fishy to me. I was told my 97 SC2 has a 149k mile
> >warantee for the timing chain. Seems to me that if it BROKE and RUINED
> >the engine before that time that I was covered for the chain and any
> >damage caused by it. Period. Has Saturn's policy changed to protect their
> >97 cars more then their older cars? I think you have rights that you
>
> My car came with a 3/36 bumper-to-bumper warranty. Nothing more,
> nothing less. As Saturn so politely reminded me, I was lucky they
> gave me the gratuity of 1/2 payment for my timing chain disaster. If
> they increased the timing chain warranty from 36K to 149K in 1997,
> kind of makes you wonder if the timing chain might not have been a
> problem for them on past model year cars.
It has been a problem, but how much of that is due to insufficient
oil is not clear. A lot of car owners follow the manufacturer
recommendations for service that apply to them, but don't do
anything in between, including checking the oil. Normally this
isn't a problem, but if the engine burns an abnormal amount of
oil, as many Saturns do, it's a big problem. A while back someone
reported that their mechanic would often do oil changes on
Saturns and see only 1-2 quarts come out. These people clearly
neglected to check the oil as they should have, and will have all
sorts of problems down the road.
> Car was maintained according to Saturn-suggested 6,000 mile service
> schedule; all work done by Saturn retailers; Saturn has all
> maintenance records on-line in its central computer database.
Sigh, in this newsgroup it doesn't seem to matter if you follow the
maintenance schedules. Saturn can do no wrong. In this case
the excuse is that you should have followed the 3000 mile schedule,
but the reality is that few owners drive in conditions that warrant it.
The main advantage of the 3K mile schedule is that you are much
less likely to be running the engine with very low oil. The experts
all agree that 3K mile oil changes are unnecessary.
There are some cars where it always pays to get the extended
warranty. It's kind of like putting Murphy's law to work for you,
instead of having it work against you. Unless the manufacturer
includes at least a 50K engine/powertrain warranty, I'd opt for
it on non-Japanese cars.
Xiao-Long Li
In article <8610408...@dejanews.com>, <sch...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>In article <5ik6nu$g...@world1.bawave.com>,
>less likely to be running the engine with very low oil. The experts
>all agree that 3K mile oil changes are unnecessary.
Experts? What experts? You would call CU experts? I am saying that it
would really matter for all cars to change oil early. But have they
tested Saturn? I have not seen that, so I would change my oil every 3,000
miles.
Frank Yang
In article <5itsd0$h...@acmex.gatech.edu>, gt6...@prism.gatech.edu says...
>
>In article <8610408...@dejanews.com>, <sch...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>In article <5ik6nu$g...@world1.bawave.com>,
>>less likely to be running the engine with very low oil. The experts
>>all agree that 3K mile oil changes are unnecessary.
>
>Experts? What experts? You would call CU experts? I am saying that it
>would really matter for all cars to change oil early. But have they
>tested Saturn? I have not seen that, so I would change my oil every 3,000
>miles.
>
I agree. Very *few* people drive in the conditions that warrant 6,000 mile
oil change. It must be highway miles, no stop and go, not too hot and not
too cold, no dust, no pollum, this pretty much rules out 99% of the time.
Do your car a favor, change the oil at every 3,000 miles. Check the oil
regularly. If the oil gets too low or dirty, add or change the oil
immediately. Remember the engine grinds at 600 rpm at low idle speed, or
about 10 times per second. Any slight problem with the oil can result in
engine damage. Auto engine may pump out hundreds of horses, but it is
actually a very fragile and delicate machine that requires proper care.
- Frank
Steve Granata
Bill Kilgore <kil...@wldbil.killspam.enet.dec.com> wrote:
>I sympathize with your situation, but I fail to follow your logic above.
>Saturn's action could be interpreted as "We'll meet you halfway because
>you obviously took good care of the car"; or as "We'll only pay half
>because you only changed the oil every 6k -- had you changed it every
>3k, we would have covered the whole repair."
>Are you implying the latter? Was that statement actually made?
I am implying the former of your statements above. During the entire
ordeal no one ever mentioned a single word to me about the frequency
of my oil changes. On numerous occasions both the retailer and Spring
Hill rep mentioned to me how well I'd kept the car maintained.
Thanks to the informative contributions of members of this newsgroup,
I've come to learn of Saturn's oil burn rate, and the fact that I
should have had the oil changed every 3K. Not once, at any time -
including all of the times I took the car to the retailer for 6K
service intervals - did anyone at Saturn recommend to me a 3K service
interval (oil change).
SaturnFix
Judas priest.... Steve, you make sound like your Saturn should never
break or it's a lemon. Do you feel this way about any car?? Who told you
that your Saturn would never have a problem?? How could you believe them
if they had??? There are hundreds of people who have problems with all
makes of cars that just have gone out of warranty, and I'm sure most of
them don't get to only pay half. I think that you are lucky to even get
any help at all. And how the hell you think that if a car ever breaks
down, then it's a lemon, I can't believe it. So if it went 100,000 miles
then needed a chain, then it would it still be a lemon too?? If it's out
of warranty, then it's OUT OF WARRANTY. Idiot. You are the kind of
person who would bitch if you was hung with a new rope.
You sound the kind of person that rents videos from blockbuster, keeps
them an extra day, then brings them back and bitches about the late
charges.
When you find that perfect car that never ever has any problems, and will
never be a lemon, let us all know......
And a 149k warranty on 97 timing chains???? I don't think so. Why 149k,
and not 148k or 150k?? Sounds too stupid to even give credit to. If
someone was told this, it must have been a lie to get the sell.
For god's sake people, get real. Saturn never has said they were perfect.
Where the hell did you hear that they were?? You call this a horror
story, and I'm sure that Saturn dealer uses the same description about
you.
Anarchy X
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Steve Granata <sgra...@bellatlantic.net> wrote in article
<5is5q8$i...@world1.bawave.com>...
> us03...@no-spam.mindspring.com (Frank Yang) wrote:
>
> >If you had read the original post, you'd see that this guy's Saturn is
way
> >out of warranty, changed oil at 6k interval, not at the 3k that most of
us
> >have to follow, and yet Saturn was nice enough to pick up half of the
tab.
> >Still, this guy screams on top of his lungs to demand Saturn to pay the
> >entire cost. Keep in mind, the timing chain is lubricated by engine
oil.
>
> >The way I see it, this guy was trying to skimp on $29 oil change and end
up
> >with a big repair bill. This is a classic "penny wise, pound foolish"
lesson
> >for all of us. I think Saturn has done above and beyond its duty for
his
> >unfortunate situation. I challenge other car companies to come up to
this
> >level.
>
> In justifying its 1/2 payment, one of Saturn's comments was that I'd
> kept the car well maintained, including chaging the oil every 5500 to
> 6000 miles. That is one of the reasons they gave for paying 1/2,
> instead of leaving me with the whole bill.
>
> I hope this is enough to put a stop to this argument. If Saturn
> requires 3000 mile oil changes for its timing chains to survive, than
> it darn well better tell the owners!
>
>
> Steve Granata
> sgra...@bellatlantic.net
> http://members.aol.com/sgranata/
Steve, how can I put this kindly,.... You're a first class whining pain
in the ass. I can't believe that you tried to pull this stunt off with
Saturn. What the hell did you think they were going to say when you
wheeled your car into their service bay? Your car's warranty had expired
9000 miles ago! It doesn't matter if you drive 9000 miles in a year or in
a month. The warranty EXPIRED. And you have the nerve to make a big stink
about it when you find out what it's gonna cost to have it fixed?
I have to agree with the others in this thread that have said that it was
generous as hell of Saturn to foot half the bill for you. And to top
things off you admitted to the rest of us and to Saturn if I remember
correctly that you didn't change the oil every 3000mi like you should have.
Hell that's like going in to the service center and saying, "Yeah I know I
shouldn't have been beating her like a dog and all but could you stop me a
new engine?". Saturn just cut you a deal and some serious financial slack
for paying for half of your repair cost. I remember having to pay nearly
that much for a tranny rebuild. For crying out loud man are you ever
satisfied?
I read the response to your posting here from SaturnFix and I just had to
think to myself that SaturnFix needs a hug! Hell, he's (I'm assuming that
SF is male, it seems to be a trend in the automotive service industry,
forgive me if I am wrong!) probably put up with the same kind of psychotic
ravings like yours for far too long. Get a grip on yourself, stop
looking for sympathy from us and stop pointing fingers in an effort to put
the blame on someone else. It's like you want forgiveness for royally
mistreating your car. Hell no! Not from me buddy. Face it! You were
screwed by a comination of Mr. Murphy whom we all know very well and
yourself. That's what it all boils down to. Actually, I'm tending to lean
more in the direction of you as the responsible party, something tells me
that Mr. Murphy is denying any doings in this matter.
If you never buy another Saturn, I don't think Saturn will mind much.
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<html><head></head><BODY bgcolor=3D"#FFFFFF"><p><font size=3D2 =
color=3D"#800000" face=3D"Comic Sans MS"><br><font =
color=3D"#000000">Steve Granata <<font =
color=3D"#FF0000"><u>sgra...@bellatlantic.net</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">> wrote in article <<font =
color=3D"#FF0000"><u>5is5q8$i...@world1.bawave.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000">>...<br>> <font =
color=3D"#FF0000"><u>us03...@no-spam.mindspring.com</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"> (Frank Yang) wrote:<br>> <br>> >If you had =
read the original post, you'd see that this guy's Saturn is way <br>> =
>out of warranty, changed oil at 6k interval, not at the 3k that most =
of us <br>> >have to follow, and yet Saturn was nice enough to =
pick up half of the tab. <br>> >Still, this guy screams on =
top of his lungs to demand Saturn to pay the <br>> >entire cost. =
Keep in mind, the timing chain is lubricated by engine =
oil.<br>> <br>> >The way I see it, this guy was trying to skimp =
on $29 oil change and end up <br>> >with a big repair bill. =
This is a classic "penny wise, pound foolish" lesson =
<br>> >for all of us. I think Saturn has done above and =
beyond its duty for his <br>> >unfortunate situation. I =
challenge other car companies to come up to this <br>> =
>level.<br>> <br>> In justifying its 1/2 payment, one of =
Saturn's comments was that I'd<br>> kept the car well maintained, =
including chaging the oil every 5500 to<br>> 6000 miles. That =
is one of the reasons they gave for paying 1/2,<br>> instead of =
leaving me with the whole bill.<br>> <br>> I hope this is enough =
to put a stop to this argument. If Saturn<br>> requires 3000 =
mile oil changes for its timing chains to survive, than<br>> it darn =
well better tell the owners!<br>> <br>> <br>> Steve =
Granata<br>> <font =
color=3D"#FF0000"><u>sgra...@bellatlantic.net</u><font =
color=3D"#000000"><br>> <font =
color=3D"#FF0000"><u>http://members.aol.com/sgranata/<br></u><font =
color=3D"#800000"><br> Steve, how can I put this kindly,.... =
You're a first class whining pain in the ass. I can't =
believe that you tried to pull this stunt off with Saturn. What =
the hell did you think they were going to say when you wheeled your car =
into their service bay? Your car's warranty had expired 9000 miles =
ago! It doesn't matter if you drive 9000 miles in a year or in a =
month. The warranty EXPIRED. And you have the nerve to make =
a big stink about it when you find out what it's gonna cost to have it =
fixed?<br> I have to agree with the others in this thread that =
have said that it was generous as hell of Saturn to foot half the bill =
for you. And to top things off you admitted to the rest of us and =
to Saturn if I remember correctly that you didn't change the oil every =
3000mi like you should have. Hell that's like going in to the =
service center and saying, "Yeah I know I shouldn't have been =
beating her like a dog and all but could you stop me a new =
engine?". Saturn just cut you a deal and some serious =
financial slack for paying for half of your repair cost. I =
remember having to pay nearly that much for a tranny rebuild. =
<font size=3D2>For crying out loud man are you ever =
satisfied?<font size=3D2><br> I read the response to your posting =
here from SaturnFix and I just had to think to myself that SaturnFix =
needs a hug! Hell, he's (I'm assuming that SF is male, it seems to =
be a trend in the automotive service industry, forgive me if I am =
wrong!) probably put up with the same kind of psychotic ravings like =
yours for far too long. Get a grip on yourself, stop =
looking for sympathy from us and stop pointing fingers in an effort to =
put the blame on someone else. It's like you want forgiveness for =
royally mistreating your car. Hell no! Not from me buddy. =
Face it! You were screwed by a comination of Mr. Murphy whom =
we all know very well and yourself. That's what it all boils down =
to. Actually, I'm tending to lean more in the direction of you as =
the responsible party, something tells me that Mr. Murphy is denying any =
doings in this matter.<br><br> If you never buy another Saturn, I =
don't think Saturn will mind much. <font color=3D"#000000"></p>
</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></f=
ont></font></font></font></font></body></html>
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Paul W. Henne
This thread has certainly been painful to read. As I read the various
postings I feel mixed emotions. Saturn heavily promotes the idea that
Saturn will routinely go out of it's way to keep it's customers happy.
This, put together with the way the salespeople go on and on about how long
the metal timing chains are supposed to last, makes it very difficult to
accept the fact that said timing chain has now failed very early in the
car's lifetime, taking the engine along with it. Must be a one-in-a-
million occurrance, right? So why don't they go out of their way to help?
On one hand, I'm surprised that Spring Hill did not support the dealer's
request for a new engine. The dealer has firsthand experience with the
car, the inside of the engine, and (usually) the customer's maintenance
habits (or lack thereof) and is in a better position to determine if this
was in fact a rare defect or a case of improper maintenance. Steve stated
that his dealer felt the car had been properly maintained. Granted, the
reduced maintenance schedule really only applies to a very small percentage
of driving situations; but I find it very amusing that people are taking
Steve to task over this when the dealer is in a much better position to
judge, and has in fact found in favor of Mr. Granata!! Very amusing, this.
I guess I understand, now, why some people think of this as a cult.
The problem is: the line has to be drawn somewhere. Just my opinion, and
I'm NOT trying to speculate about Saturn's financial position, but I think
that most companies just cannot afford to replace engines every time there
is an early failure, even in cases where they feel it is wholly justified.
Too many people have differing opinions on what is considered 'early'. It
would be too difficult for anyone to stay in business. Unfortunately I
would expect few other manufacturers to even ante up for half, in spite of
the low mileage. I'm not saying that I agree with this, or that I think
this is the way things should be. I'm only speculating.
I do know that if this had happened to me I would feel the same way Steve
does. But I also think cars should come with 3yr, 60,000 mile factory
warranties, so who knows...I guess I just have unreasonable expectations
all over the place.
Paul :-/
|Steve Granata
|sgra...@bellatlantic.net
|http://members.aol.com/sgranata/
|
|
--
------------- Paul W. Henne <p...@clark.net> --------------
"Good judgement comes from experience; and experience, well,
that comes from bad judgement." - Anonymous
-> E-mail replies: Remove "-no.soliciting" from my address
------------------------------------------------------------
James Wing
Xiao-Long Li wrote:
>
> Well, the thing that I don't believe is that a Time Chain would break
> without any warning at all. If you would have change oil every 3,000
> miles, it would not happen this early.
>
...
Of course it can! It happens. Also, a 6k mile oil change interval is
acceptable. Toyota recommends a 7,500 mile interval between oil
changes. This stuff just happens sometimes. If you are unwilling to
take the risk of that happening, buy the extended warranty.
If you never buy an extended warranty for your whole life, however, you
will end up with more money at the end than you would end up with if you
bought the extended warranty for every car you bought. Sure, you're
going to take a hit from time to time, but you'll save a ton-o-money in
the long haul being "self insured", so to speak.
This guy just took a hit, that's all. And he thinks he shouldn't have
to take the hit, EVER, even though he reaps the savings of not buying
the extended warranty. Heck, maybe he's not really upset about it at
all, and is just using this as a negotiating tactic with Saturn to see
if he can squeeze a few more dollars out of them.
If I thought that Saturn REQUIRED oil changes twice as often as everyone
else's car in order to NOT self destruct, I would never buy it. I
happen to change the oil every 3k miles, but only to make it last
forever. It should last 150k miles with 6k mile oil changes, and it
will.....unless you get unlucky, and it self-destructs, like this guy's
car did. The oil change interval was not the cause (unless, of course,
it got low on oil between oil changes, which would be really easy, given
Saturn's propensity to consume 1 qt / 3k miles, in which case the oil
change interval MIGHT be seen as an INDIRECT cause).
James Wing
Steve Granata wrote:>
> I am implying the former of your statements above. During the entire
> ordeal no one ever mentioned a single word to me about the frequency
> of my oil changes. On numerous occasions both the retailer and Spring
> Hill rep mentioned to me how well I'd kept the car maintained.
>
> Thanks to the informative contributions of members of this newsgroup,
> I've come to learn of Saturn's oil burn rate, and the fact that I
> should have had the oil changed every 3K. Not once, at any time -
> including all of the times I took the car to the retailer for 6K
> service intervals - did anyone at Saturn recommend to me a 3K service
> interval (oil change).
>
Steve,
There are two service interval charts. One for hard, the other for easy
useage. The easy useage chart probably recommends a 6k mile service
interval. The dealers generally tear this page out of your owners
manual because they know, from their experience with the cars, that they
will probably use a quart of oil in 3k miles, leaving you low. Since
most people never check their oil, (especially on a new car) people
using the 6k mile interval will drive with low oil. I actually saw the
easy useage chart just long enough for my salesman to tear it out of my
owner's manual and throw it away. I assume that the same was done for
most of the people who have responded, as most of them speak of the 3k
mile interval as if it were the only one that existed.
Unfortunately, you have to check the oil regularly in a Saturn if you
are going to change the oil on a 6k mile interval.
Sincerely,
James Wing
James Wing
Xiao-Long Li wrote:
>
> Experts? What experts? You would call CU experts? I am saying that it
> would really matter for all cars to change oil early. But have they
> tested Saturn? I have not seen that, so I would change my oil every 3,000
> miles.
>
>If Saturn cars require oil changes twice as often as Japanese cars, something is wrong.
Jim
Steven M. Scharf
James Wing <jame...@sprintmail.com> wrote in article
<335450...@sprintmail.com>...
> There are two service interval charts. One for hard, the other for easy
> useage. The easy useage chart probably recommends a 6k mile service
> interval. The dealers generally tear this page out of your owners
> manual because they know, from their experience with the cars, that they
> will probably use a quart of oil in 3k miles, leaving you low. Since
> most people never check their oil, (especially on a new car) people
> using the 6k mile interval will drive with low oil. I actually saw the
> easy useage chart just long enough for my salesman to tear it out of my
> owner's manual and throw it away. I assume that the same was done for
> most of the people who have responded, as most of them speak of the 3k
> mile interval as if it were the only one that existed.
I always wondered why so many people seem to never hae heard of the
6K service interval, though I long ago postulated that the reason they
push 3K oil changes was to mitigate the effects of the oil burning.
Tearing pages out of the owners manual??!! Saturn is certainly a
different kind of company!!
Xiao-Long Li
In article <MPG.dbe0fb75...@news.clark.net>,
Paul W. Henne <p...@clark.net-no.soliciting> wrote:
>that his dealer felt the car had been properly maintained. Granted, the
>reduced maintenance schedule really only applies to a very small percentage
>of driving situations; but I find it very amusing that people are taking
>Steve to task over this when the dealer is in a much better position to
>judge, and has in fact found in favor of Mr. Granata!! Very amusing, this.
>I guess I understand, now, why some people think of this as a cult.
If you read the Owner's manual carefully, then you will see that Saturn
DO RECOMMAND you to change oil every 3,000 miles. You can change it every
6,000 miles if you don't drive at high speed, or you don't do a lot of
city driving. In general, if you do mostly cruising, then change it every
6,000 miles.
But for most of us, we do drive at a pretty high speed 70+. We do some
city driving and we drive it pretty hard. So, we should really change oil
EVERY 3,000 miles.
I don't see why you can't do it. Changing Oil about 4-5 times a year is
too much to ask for? It is a machine, it needs lubrication!
ri...@interactive.spamthis.net
Xiao-Long Li <gt6...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
:P~In article <E8qxr...@news.interactive.net>,
:P~ <ri...@interactive.spamthis.net> wrote:
:P~>Anyone who lets their oil go 8-10k is playing Russian roulette. An
:P~>oil change is very cheap insurance when you think about the alternative.
:P~Mercedez-Benz are asking you to change oil every 8,000 miles. And it
:P~costs about $50.00 everytime. :)
Then Mercedes owners can bitch on the mercedes newsgroup. 8-)
That's one of the reasons I decided against getting a beater
928 and got a beater American muscle car instead...cheaper
maintenance costs.
:P~>:P~The new Catera has a oil-cooler comes with it and it only needs oil
:P~>:P~changed every 10,000 miles.
:P~>Having an oil cooler has nothing to do with dirt in your oil. I think
:P~>oil coolers are a great idea though.
:P~But it does help reducing the breakdown of the oil due to high
:P~temperature. Especially, if you do a lot of high-speed driving.
In a properly cooled engine, it has very little effect. Once your
engine reaches a steady state (it's warmed up), the temperature
really doesn't vary by much. And contrary to popular belief,
the engine probably runs cooler at high speed since you get much
greater airflow through the radiator. In cars prone to overheating,
an oil cooler can make a difference though, which is why many high
performance minded folks install them.
Xiao-Long Li
In article <33544D...@sprintmail.com>,
James Wing <jame...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
>Of course it can! It happens. Also, a 6k mile oil change interval is
>acceptable. Toyota recommends a 7,500 mile interval between oil
>changes. This stuff just happens sometimes. If you are unwilling to
>take the risk of that happening, buy the extended warranty.
There are usually warnings before timing chain break.
>If I thought that Saturn REQUIRED oil changes twice as often as everyone
>else's car in order to NOT self destruct, I would never buy it. I
>happen to change the oil every 3k miles, but only to make it last
>forever. It should last 150k miles with 6k mile oil changes, and it
>will.....unless you get unlucky, and it self-destructs, like this guy's
>car did. The oil change interval was not the cause (unless, of course,
>it got low on oil between oil changes, which would be really easy, given
>Saturn's propensity to consume 1 qt / 3k miles, in which case the oil
>change interval MIGHT be seen as an INDIRECT cause).
Well, either way, Saturns are not designed to have a long oil-change
periods. That is the design. A lot of cars these days only need
oil changed every 8,000 miles or even 10,000 miles, because they are
designed to do that. Saturns are not. They are designed to have a short
oil-change period.
The new Catera has a oil-cooler comes with it and it only needs oil
changed every 10,000 miles.
Xiao-Long Li
In article <335452...@sprintmail.com>,
James Wing <jame...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
>If Saturn cars require oil changes twice as often as Japanese cars,
>something is wrong.
What? What is your logic behind this? It is a difference in design.
Caddillacs don't require transmission fluids changed and tune-up until
100,000 miles and most Japanese cars need tranmission fluids changed at
60,000 miles. Are you going to tell me that something is wrong with
Japanese cars' tranmission? That was your logic.
sch...@hotmail.com
In article <33544D...@sprintmail.com>,
jame...@sprintmail.com wrote:
>
> Xiao-Long Li wrote:
> >
>
> > Well, the thing that I don't believe is that a Time Chain would break
> > without any warning at all. If you would have change oil every 3,000
> > miles, it would not happen this early.
> Of course it can! It happens. Also, a 6k mile oil change interval is
> acceptable. Toyota recommends a 7,500 mile interval between oil
> changes. This stuff just happens sometimes. If you are unwilling to
> take the risk of that happening, buy the extended warranty.
Timing chains don't normally give any warning. On a quiet
car you might notice an unlubricated chain making more
noise than normal. As a timing chain failure is catastrophic,
and many owners have had timing chains break, it makes
sense to change it periodically, just as you would a timing
belt (at least on a Saturn). Every 36K should be sufficient (if
you don't have an extended warranty). I have not heard of
any timing chain breaking before 45K miles.
If you balk at the cost of an extended warranty (and you should!),
the best thing to do is to buy a car with a standard longer engine
and power train warranty. Forego the extended warranty as long as
the very expensive items are covered. Toyotas have 5 year, 60K
mile engine and power train warranties. VWs have 10 year, 100K
mile engine and power train warranties. Some may claim that
these are gimmicks, and they may be partially correct, the
manufacturers offer these because they know statistically that
the chance of these items breaking in that period of time are
quite small; notice they don't offer a 5/60 BTB or 10/100 BTB
(VW would go bankrupt!). Until recently Saturn could sell all the
cars it could make at a premium price with a shorter warranty
than some of its competitors, so there was no need to offer a long
engine and power train warranty, plus there were good reasons
NOT to do it, it adversly affects extended warranty sales, plus
the engines are a weak area of Saturns.
I think Toyotas 7500 mile interval is a little high, I do 3750
oil changes myself, and bring it somewhere for the 7500 changes
so I have a legal record in case of problems. After the warranty
expires I'll probably switch to 5K-6K changes, as all the experts
agree that there is no need for 3K changes.
Just read Click and Clack's opinion on all this if you don't believe
the scientific studies. I trust Click and Clack more than Consumer
Reports, though even Consumer Reports' study is more credible
than all the antecdotal posts I read in Usenet. The flaw in the CR
study was the the taxis studied were seldom shut off. One of the
reasons to change oil more often is that moisture accumulates in
the oil when you do a lot of short trips and then let the vehicle sit
around. Moisture does not accumulate when the cars are run
almost continuously.
Even on Saturn 6K is sufficient--IF you add oil should your engine
burn any. An extended warranty on a Saturn would be a good idea,
if only for the timing chain problems. Unfortunately they won't fix
the oil burning problem either in the regular or extended warranty
unless you get very lucky.
James Wing
Paul W. Henne wrote:
> On one hand, I'm surprised that Spring Hill did not support the dealer's
> request for a new engine. The dealer has firsthand experience with the
> car, the inside of the engine, and (usually) the customer's maintenance
> habits (or lack thereof) and is in a better position to determine if this
> was in fact a rare defect or a case of improper maintenance. Steve stated
> that his dealer felt the car had been properly maintained. Granted, the
> reduced maintenance schedule really only applies to a very small percentage
> of driving situations; but I find it very amusing that people are taking
> Steve to task over this when the dealer is in a much better position to
> judge, and has in fact found in favor of Mr. Granata!! Very amusing, this.
> I guess I understand, now, why some people think of this as a cult.
>
Steve said it himself -- "good cop/bad cop" The dealer was trying to be
the "good guy, alway on his side" They lacked the balls to tell Steve
that he was wrong. They opted to let the factory do it, instead.
> The problem is: the line has to be drawn somewhere. Just my opinion, and
> I'm NOT trying to speculate about Saturn's financial position, but I think
> that most companies just cannot afford to replace engines every time there
> is an early failure, even in cases where they feel it is wholly justified.
I think, that if Saturn had felt that it was "wholly justified" they
would have done it.
>
> I do know that if this had happened to me I would feel the same way Steve
> does. But I also think cars should come with 3yr, 60,000 mile factory
> warranties, so who knows...I guess I just have unreasonable expectations
> all over the place.
Actually, the Saturn CAN come with a 100,000 mile warranty, but that
costs $900 more. You can either put the warranty on all the cars and
raise the price, or you can give people the freedom to choose. I prefer
freedom. I guess Steve would prefer a REQUIREMENT that we all buy the
extended warranty so that we should all be protected from making our own
choices.
--Jim
James Wing
Xiao-Long Li wrote:
>
> In article <335452...@sprintmail.com>,
> James Wing <jame...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
> >If Saturn cars require oil changes twice as often as Japanese cars,
> >something is wrong.
>
> What? What is your logic behind this? It is a difference in design.
> Caddillacs don't require transmission fluids changed and tune-up until
> 100,000 miles and most Japanese cars need tranmission fluids changed at
> 60,000 miles. Are you going to tell me that something is wrong with
> Japanese cars' tranmission? That was your logic.
>
No. Cadillac is exceptional in this category. They far outperform the
industry standard with their transmission. Just as Saturn is far
outperformed by everyone when it comes to engine oil consumption. The
point is that I don't believe that Saturn cars REQUIRE oil changes at 3k
miles. They only stress it at that interval because that's how long it
takes to get a quart low on oil.
Its a simple fact. It doesn't make the cars suck, its just a weekness,
such as all cars have. Overall, I think that the Saturn is an excellent
buy for $15k ----- better (OVERALL, but not in EVERY SINGLE category)
than most Japanese cars in this price range.
-- Jim
ri...@interactive.spamthis.net
Xiao-Long Li <gt6...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
:P~In article <33544D...@sprintmail.com>,
:P~James Wing <jame...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
:P~>Of course it can! It happens. Also, a 6k mile oil change interval is
:P~>acceptable. Toyota recommends a 7,500 mile interval between oil
:P~>changes. This stuff just happens sometimes. If you are unwilling to
:P~>take the risk of that happening, buy the extended warranty.
:P~There are usually warnings before timing chain break.
Actually, that's not true. When steel timing chains break
they simply snap. Occasionally, you can be warned by a worn
chain or worn timing gear as the chain will jump a gear and
hose your timing (but not destroy your engine).
:P~Well, either way, Saturns are not designed to have a long oil-change
:P~periods. That is the design. A lot of cars these days only need
:P~oil changed every 8,000 miles or even 10,000 miles, because they are
:P~designed to do that. Saturns are not. They are designed to have a short
:P~oil-change period.
Anyone who lets their oil go 8-10k is playing Russian roulette. An
oil change is very cheap insurance when you think about the alternative.
:P~The new Catera has a oil-cooler comes with it and it only needs oil
:P~changed every 10,000 miles.
Having an oil cooler has nothing to do with dirt in your oil. I think
oil coolers are a great idea though.
Chris
satyr
In article <5j368i$4...@acmex.gatech.edu>,
gt6...@prism.gatech.edu (Xiao-Long Li) wrote:
#If you read the Owner's manual carefully, then you will see that Saturn
#DO RECOMMAND you to change oil every 3,000 miles. You can change it every
#6,000 miles if you don't drive at high speed, or you don't do a lot of
#city driving. In general, if you do mostly cruising, then change it every
#6,000 miles.
#
#
#But for most of us, we do drive at a pretty high speed 70+. We do some
#city driving and we drive it pretty hard. So, we should really change oil
#EVERY 3,000 miles.
Does the manual really say this? My '86 Integra calls for 7500mi/6month intervals
except in case of a.) repeated short distance driving (not the same as city
driving) or b.) drivng in dusty conditions in which case the interval is 3000/3.
I don't think I have ever heard of such a mild definition of severe service as
this city/high speed driving thing.
PS: I always change the oil at 3000 even though I do not meet Honda's definition
of severe conditions.
Xiao-Long Li
In article <335578...@sprintmail.com>,
James Wing <jame...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
>outperformed by everyone when it comes to engine oil consumption. The
>point is that I don't believe that Saturn cars REQUIRE oil changes at 3k
>miles. They only stress it at that interval because that's how long it
>takes to get a quart low on oil.
According to the 1996 Saturn Maintaince Schedule. You should change your
oil every 3,000 miles. And 1996 models don't burn any oil. (at least not
yet). So, why does Saturn still ask you to change every 3,000 miles?
I am not saying that you are wrong. It is just that 1996 models need oil
change every 3,000 miles.
Xiao-Long Li
In article <E8qxr...@news.interactive.net>,
<ri...@interactive.spamthis.net> wrote:
>Anyone who lets their oil go 8-10k is playing Russian roulette. An
>oil change is very cheap insurance when you think about the alternative.
Mercedez-Benz are asking you to change oil every 8,000 miles. And it
costs about $50.00 everytime. :)
>:P~The new Catera has a oil-cooler comes with it and it only needs oil
>:P~changed every 10,000 miles.
>Having an oil cooler has nothing to do with dirt in your oil. I think
>oil coolers are a great idea though.
But it does help reducing the breakdown of the oil due to high
temperature. Especially, if you do a lot of high-speed driving.
Xiao-Long Li
In article <5j3b4g$i0k$2...@kirin.wwa.com>,
satyr <RsEaM...@infidels.org> wrote:
>#If you read the Owner's manual carefully, then you will see that Saturn
>#DO RECOMMAND you to change oil every 3,000 miles. You can change it every
>#6,000 miles if you don't drive at high speed, or you don't do a lot of
>#city driving. In general, if you do mostly cruising, then change it every
>#6,000 miles.
>Does the manual really say this? My '86 Integra calls for 7500mi/6month intervals
>except in case of a.) repeated short distance driving (not the same as city
>driving) or b.) drivng in dusty conditions in which case the interval is 3000/3.
>I don't think I have ever heard of such a mild definition of severe service as
>this city/high speed driving thing.
From my understanding of it. Yes, it does. Your Integra is different.
Also, the recommanded service schedule asks you to change oil every 3,000
miles or every 3 months whichever comes first.
>PS: I always change the oil at 3000 even though I do not meet Honda's definition
>of severe conditions.
I do too.
David Stafford
Steve:
Anyone who reads this newsgroup knows that, so far, I am happy with my
Saturn. I have owned several cars with timing chains (Alfa Romeos of
all things) and have never had a timing chain break on me. I think, in
spite of your apparently spotty maintenance history, that you got real
unlucky. Could be anyone, could be me. I do feel sorry for your poor
luck. On the other hand, I don't really feel that Saturn was at fault.
Clearly the car was out of warranty, and they were willing to pay half
the costs. Under the circumstances, this seems fair to me. I don't
really hold with all the folks calling you various names. I have been
screwed by any number of cars over the years (maybe the timing chain
didn't go wrong on the Alfas, but plenty else did :)). Sometimes, you
just have to let it be a learning experience. From now on, I bet you
change oil at 3K intervals. Many people on this group and off do not
check their oil. I do a couple of times a month or more. One thing
that I do not understand is why you did not get a warranty on the
engine rebuild. You should have. I have had rebuilt engines for Alfa's
, BMW, and American Motors. All had warranties. It should be a
virtually new engine, and should carry a 12 month guarantee at least.
All I can say, is, if you don't sell your Saturn right away, try to
have as much fun with it as possible. Since your first post, I looked
into the price of a rebuilt engine, and it sounds like what you paid
is about right for 1/2 the cost. Of course, there is a lot I don't
know about exactly what was done, but, rebuilt engines including
removal and install, seem to run about $2500 plus. You do have a new
engine in the car. Good Luck, David
"Cinnamon Girl" '97 Saturn SL
David Stafford
I never heard of this before either, but the dealer did tell me that
3K changes were highly desirable. My owners manual does not have any
torn out pages (I don't think :)). The 6 K service interval is for
highway driving only. I still think Mr. Gravanto (sp?), was very
unlucky more than anything else. David
Frank Yang
>
>Xiao-Long Li <gt6...@prism.gatech.edu> wrote:
>:P~In article <33544D...@sprintmail.com>,
>:P~James Wing <jame...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
>:P~>Of course it can! It happens. Also, a 6k mile oil change interval is
>:P~>acceptable. Toyota recommends a 7,500 mile interval between oil
>:P~>changes. This stuff just happens sometimes. If you are unwilling to
>:P~>take the risk of that happening, buy the extended warranty.
>
>
>:P~There are usually warnings before timing chain break.
>
>Actually, that's not true. When steel timing chains break
>they simply snap. Occasionally, you can be warned by a worn
>chain or worn timing gear as the chain will jump a gear and
>hose your timing (but not destroy your engine).
>
>:P~Well, either way, Saturns are not designed to have a long oil-change
>:P~periods. That is the design. A lot of cars these days only need
>:P~oil changed every 8,000 miles or even 10,000 miles, because they are
>:P~designed to do that. Saturns are not. They are designed to have a short
>:P~oil-change period.
>
>oil change is very cheap insurance when you think about the alternative.
>
>:P~changed every 10,000 miles.
>
>Having an oil cooler has nothing to do with dirt in your oil. I think
>oil coolers are a great idea though.
>
The oil filter takes care most of the dirt in the oil. Oil cooler helps
prevent (or delay) oil viscosity breakdown.
Some engines are designed to hold more oil in the pan than similar engines,
thus they require less frequent oil change.
I agree with Chris. For most cars, the 3k oil change interval is the only
way to keep an engine running long life. No gimmicks, no additives, no
workarounds.
- Frank
Frank Yang
In article <5j3b4g$i0k$2...@kirin.wwa.com>, RsEaM...@infidels.org says...
>
>In article <5j368i$4...@acmex.gatech.edu>,
> gt6...@prism.gatech.edu (Xiao-Long Li) wrote:
>
>#If you read the Owner's manual carefully, then you will see that Saturn
>#DO RECOMMAND you to change oil every 3,000 miles. You can change it every
>#6,000 miles if you don't drive at high speed, or you don't do a lot of
>#city driving. In general, if you do mostly cruising, then change it every
>#6,000 miles.
>#
>#But for most of us, we do drive at a pretty high speed 70+. We do some
>#city driving and we drive it pretty hard. So, we should really change oil
>
>Does the manual really say this? My '86 Integra calls for 7500mi/6month
interva
>ls
>except in case of a.) repeated short distance driving (not the same as city
>driving) or b.) drivng in dusty conditions in which case the interval is
3000/3.
>
>I don't think I have ever heard of such a mild definition of severe service
as
>this city/high speed driving thing.
>
definition
>
>of severe conditions.
Saturn's manual says the similar things. Change the oil at 6k, but there is
a long list of exceptions that 99% of us don't meet.
3k it is!
- Frank
H.B. Elkins
"Steven M. Scharf" <pole...@att.worldnet.net> wrote:
>James Wing <jame...@sprintmail.com> wrote in article
><335450...@sprintmail.com>...
>> There are two service interval charts. One for hard, the other for easy
>> useage. The easy useage chart probably recommends a 6k mile service
>> interval. The dealers generally tear this page out of your owners
>> manual because they know, from their experience with the cars, that they
>> will probably use a quart of oil in 3k miles, leaving you low. Since
>> most people never check their oil, (especially on a new car) people
>> using the 6k mile interval will drive with low oil. I actually saw the
>> easy useage chart just long enough for my salesman to tear it out of my
>> owner's manual and throw it away. I assume that the same was done for
>> most of the people who have responded, as most of them speak of the 3k
>> mile interval as if it were the only one that existed.
>I always wondered why so many people seem to never hae heard of the
>6K service interval, though I long ago postulated that the reason they
>push 3K oil changes was to mitigate the effects of the oil burning.
>Tearing pages out of the owners manual??!! Saturn is certainly a
>different kind of company!!
The 6K interval is mentioned in my 94 SC2 owner's manual, but the 6K
interval is only for a very specific set of driving circumstances
which very few drivers will ever match. I'd say 98 percent of drivers
meet the qualifications for a 3K service interval, and only 2 percent
would meet the qualifications for the 6K interval.
BTW, my first car was a 1979 Olds Cutlass with a 260 V8 with a
recommended service interval of 7,500 miles. In practice, I changed
oil every 5K miles. The car had 125,000 miles on it when I sold it,
didn't burn a drop of oil, and the only engine problem was a worn out
timing gear which caused the timing chain to be thrown around 120K
miles.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
H.B. Elkins -- Winchester, KY
"You must have the courage to believe the truth!" -- Rush H. Limbaugh III
Kentucky Wildcats Basketball & #3 Dale Earnhardt -- A Championship Combination
hbel...@mis.net <or> HB...@aol.com
(Please note: there is a spam-buster in my reply-to address.
To reply by E-mail,use one of the addresses above)
http://www.users.mis.net/~hbelkins (site under construction
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
James Wing
sch...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> Timing chains don't normally give any warning. On a quiet
> car you might notice an unlubricated chain making more
> noise than normal. As a timing chain failure is catastrophic,
> and many owners have had timing chains break, it makes
> sense to change it periodically, just as you would a timing
> belt (at least on a Saturn). Every 36K should be sufficient (if
> you don't have an extended warranty). I have not heard of
> any timing chain breaking before 45K miles.
Changing the timing chain every 36k mile is absurd. You will probably
increase your chance of failure this way as you have a new opportunity
every 36k miles for the mechanic to screw up, or to get a defective
chain.
> If you balk at the cost of an extended warranty (and you should!),
> the best thing to do is to buy a car with a standard longer engine
> and power train warranty. Forego the extended warranty as long as
> the very expensive items are covered. Toyotas have 5 year, 60K
> mile engine and power train warranties. VWs have 10 year, 100K
> mile engine and power train warranties. Some may claim that
> these are gimmicks, and they may be partially correct, the
> manufacturers offer these because they know statistically that
> the chance of these items breaking in that period of time are
> quite small....
Do you really think that those warranties are free? They just build
them into the price of the car. Saturn at least gives you the option.
If you know that you are only going to own the car for 3 yrs/36k miles,
why would you want to have the price of a longer, NON-TRANSFERABLE
warranty built into the price of your car?!
> Even on Saturn 6K is sufficient--IF you add oil should your engine
> burn any. An extended warranty on a Saturn would be a good idea,
> if only for the timing chain problems.
I better idea than the extended warranty on Saturn is to simply maintain
it properly -- ie. add oil when it gets low, and change oil on a
reasonable interval (<=6k miles).
--Jim
Paul W. Henne
Another thing I forgot to mention is that fixing it for free, is not fair
to those people who paid extra for an extended warranty (!) like I did. :)
Imagine...my forgetting to mention that.
Paul
H.B. Elkins
sch...@hotmail.com wrote:
>Timing chains don't normally give any warning. On a quiet
>car you might notice an unlubricated chain making more
>noise than normal. As a timing chain failure is catastrophic,
>and many owners have had timing chains break, it makes
>sense to change it periodically, just as you would a timing
>belt (at least on a Saturn). Every 36K should be sufficient (if
>you don't have an extended warranty). I have not heard of
>any timing chain breaking before 45K miles.
The funny thing is, Saturn advertises the timing chain as an
advantage. It's a metal chain that doesn't have to be replaced, vs.
other cars with rubber timing belts that do require periodic
replacement.
ri...@interactive.spamthis.net
H.B. Elkins <hbel...@mis.nyet> wrote:
:P~sch...@hotmail.com wrote:
:P~>Timing chains don't normally give any warning. On a quiet
:P~>car you might notice an unlubricated chain making more
:P~>noise than normal. As a timing chain failure is catastrophic,
:P~>and many owners have had timing chains break, it makes
:P~>sense to change it periodically, just as you would a timing
:P~>belt (at least on a Saturn). Every 36K should be sufficient (if
:P~>you don't have an extended warranty). I have not heard of
:P~>any timing chain breaking before 45K miles.
:P~The funny thing is, Saturn advertises the timing chain as an
:P~advantage. It's a metal chain that doesn't have to be replaced, vs.
:P~other cars with rubber timing belts that do require periodic
:P~replacement.
Which is an accurate statement (not replacing the chain)...Losing
a timing chain on ANY engine is rather uncommon unless there is
a lubrication problem. Like all the other things that Scharf harps
on, I suspect this is a case of a few folks that are unlucky just
happening to be the loudest posters. If you look back through the
newsgroup over time, there have been few posters who had a chain
failure (at ANY mileage figure).
By contrast, engines with a rubber timing belt will almost
certainly break it if it isn't replaced from time to time.
Most manufacturers recommend an approximate 50K service interval
for that and it isn't cheap.
One could go on and on showing Scharf's misleading statements,
but it seems he/she/they have a lot more spare time than I do.
Rod Murray
In article <5ir9ah$o...@camel2.mindspring.com>,
us03...@no-spam.mindspring.com (Frank Yang) wrote:
I don't agree with Steve but I also think this 6K oil change topic is much
ado about nothing. I have a 93 SL1 with 129,000 miles on it. I have
changed the oil faithfully every 10,000 miles since the car was new. I
use oil analysis and the report is always concluded with the statement,
"no unusual wear noted" The car runs like the day I bought it. I do use
a high quality synthetic oil and a fairly expensive oil filter though and
most of my driving is highway. YMMV
rod murray
--
Conventional wisdom says, "You get what you pay for" With cigars however this is not necessarily true. I have smoked many a $5 cigar that had neither the flavor nor the quality of construction found in my favorite $1 cigar.
Jeff Fanning
Greetings All:
I have followed this 45K broken timing chain thread with some interest.
I do not own a Saturn. I did once test drive a new Saturn, about 1994.
Durability is a big point with me. I talked to the salesman at some
length about the car. He showed me the maintenance requirements for the
engine.
One question I asked was whether the engine had 200Kmile durability and
he assured me that it did. Now I see timing chains breaking at 45K
miles. If this were my car I would be really pissed off!
I do not understand this seeming focus on exceeding the 3Kmile oil
change schedule and equating that with breaking a timing chain. I do
not believe that the two are related.
Also, I recall that Saturn specifies 5w30 engine oil. I would not put
5w30 anywhere near one of my engines.
Thanks,
Jeff
H.B. Elkins wrote:
>
> sch...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >Timing chains don't normally give any warning. On a quiet
> >car you might notice an unlubricated chain making more
> >noise than normal. As a timing chain failure is catastrophic,
> >and many owners have had timing chains break, it makes
> >sense to change it periodically, just as you would a timing
> >belt (at least on a Saturn). Every 36K should be sufficient (if
> >you don't have an extended warranty). I have not heard of
> >any timing chain breaking before 45K miles.
>
> The funny thing is, Saturn advertises the timing chain as an
> advantage. It's a metal chain that doesn't have to be replaced, vs.
> other cars with rubber timing belts that do require periodic
James Wing
Jeff Fanning wrote:
>
> ... Now I see timing chains breaking at 45K
> miles. If this were my car I would be really pissed off!
>
> I do not understand this seeming focus on exceeding the 3Kmile oil
> change schedule and equating that with breaking a timing chain. I do
> not believe that the two are related.
>
> Also, I recall that Saturn specifies 5w30 engine oil. I would not put
> 5w30 anywhere near one of my engines.
>
have been sold? The most likely cause of this is the oil getting low
between changes, or just bad luck -- remember...one chain at 45k.
Also, what's wrong with 5W30?
--Jim
Mitchell Rowry
I bet, if you changed your oil, every 3,000 miles, instead of every
6,000 miles. this condition wouldn't have occured! Even if the majority
of your driving is highway! I know what the owner's manual states about
driving conditions, I have to deal with circumstances, like yours
everyday. I'm sorry to hear, what happened,
On Saturn's behalf, I can see what they offered as fair. Think about
this, there are over a million saturns on the road, who do you think
takes care of all the millions of customers' warranty concerns, Saturn
of course!! If you're outside of warranty coverage, you can't expect
Saturn to pay for a new engine for your car, without you participating
in some way. The owner must start at some point to take responsibility
for the care of their vehicle,
Now, if you had gone every 3,000 miles/3 months between servicing, with
documentation to back it up, and the same thing happened, I would think
you would have a case for Saturn to possibly take care of your engine
concern.
My question, was there never a ticking noise in the engine at any point
in between service intervals, if so, did you check the oil level, and
add accordingly? I've heard saturns that go 6k and more between
servicing, they don't sound like an engine that comes in for service at
intervals of 3k! Surely, there was at least this one warning sign which
would've occured at least once prior to having your oil changed.
Its unfortunate, these things occur, but in my experience, (Service
Writer, Saturn Retailer), I've seen the majority of engine problems
occur due to seldom, or infrequent, changes of oil and filters.
Granted, there are some engine problems out there, that are "not"
customer related, but, I'm sure there are far less of those, then that
of customers not maintaining their vehicles, based on Saturns'
Guidelines.
Best of Luck, Steve
Mitchell Rowry
People don't appreciate what you've done for them if they don't pay for
some part of the repair costs. Usually they act, conceded,
matter-of-factly, or snooty, like they deserved to get the repair for
free!!!....I don't think so!!!!
H.B. Elkins
James Wing <jame...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
>Do you really think that those warranties are free? They just build
>them into the price of the car. Saturn at least gives you the option.
>If you know that you are only going to own the car for 3 yrs/36k miles,
>why would you want to have the price of a longer, NON-TRANSFERABLE
>warranty built into the price of your car?!
When my car approached 36K miles after I'd only owned it 18 months
(when I first bought the car, I could walk to work instead of having
to make a long commute, and my driving habits changed drastically and
unexpectedly after I'd only owned the car for about eight months) I
gave some thought to buying the extended warranty while I still had
time, but decided against it. There was nothing in the literature I
read to indicate that the warranty wasn't transferrable. In fact, I
seem to recall that the extended warranty WAS transferrable to any new
owner during the mileage/time limitations.
Frank Yang
In article <rod_murray-18...@rmurray.mitre.org>,
rod_m...@iegate.mitre.org says...
>
>In article <5ir9ah$o...@camel2.mindspring.com>,
>us03...@no-spam.mindspring.com (Frank Yang) wrote:
>
>I don't agree with Steve but I also think this 6K oil change topic is much
>ado about nothing. I have a 93 SL1 with 129,000 miles on it. I have
>changed the oil faithfully every 10,000 miles since the car was new. I
>use oil analysis and the report is always concluded with the statement,
>"no unusual wear noted" The car runs like the day I bought it. I do use
>a high quality synthetic oil and a fairly expensive oil filter though and
>most of my driving is highway. YMMV
>
>rod murray
>
Duh, synthetic oil is supposed to give you a 7k-10k oil change. With
conventional oil, 3k is the norm and 6k is for those who drive in greenhouse.
:-)
- Frank
Frank Yang
In article <335813...@surprise.engr.sgi.com>,
jfan...@surprise.engr.sgi.com says...
>
>Greetings All:
>
>I have followed this 45K broken timing chain thread with some interest.
>
>I do not own a Saturn. I did once test drive a new Saturn, about 1994.
>Durability is a big point with me. I talked to the salesman at some
>length about the car. He showed me the maintenance requirements for the
>engine.
>
>One question I asked was whether the engine had 200Kmile durability and
>miles. If this were my car I would be really pissed off!
>
>I do not understand this seeming focus on exceeding the 3Kmile oil
>change schedule and equating that with breaking a timing chain. I do
>not believe that the two are related.
>
>Also, I recall that Saturn specifies 5w30 engine oil. I would not put
>5w30 anywhere near one of my engines.
>
>Jeff
One out of, I don't know how many, Saturns have a 45k timing chain broken.
The timing chain is lubricated by the oil.
5w30 is good for Saturn, 10w30 is good for my old Ford, 20w40 is good for
farm tractor. The right oil for right engine. Duh!
Enough said.
- Frank
ri...@interactive.spamthis.net
Jeff Fanning <jfan...@surprise.engr.sgi.com> wrote:
:P~Greetings All:
:P~I have followed this 45K broken timing chain thread with some interest.
:P~I do not own a Saturn. I did once test drive a new Saturn, about 1994.
:P~Durability is a big point with me. I talked to the salesman at some
:P~length about the car. He showed me the maintenance requirements for the
:P~engine.
:P~One question I asked was whether the engine had 200Kmile durability and
:P~he assured me that it did. Now I see timing chains breaking at 45K
:P~miles. If this were my car I would be really pissed off!
What you're seeing is a vanishingly small number of people with the
problem and a couple of professional hucksters harping on it for
some unknown reason. If you carefully follow the thread, and the
newsgroup for a few months, you'll note that.
:P~I do not understand this seeming focus on exceeding the 3Kmile oil
:P~change schedule and equating that with breaking a timing chain. I do
:P~not believe that the two are related.
I don't think they're related either. Like any car company, they
have maintenance schedules. If you don't follow them, they reserve
the right to not honor (or partially honor) the engine warranty if
there is a catastrophic failure. That's par for the course in the
auto industry.
:P~Also, I recall that Saturn specifies 5w30 engine oil. I would not put
:P~5w30 anywhere near one of my engines.
I haven't seen a new car in *years* that did not specify 5w30. Unless
you're in the tropics, there's nothing wrong with 5w30. Using heavier
viscosity oils when you don't need to only results in poorer lubrication
when the engine is cold and reduced gas mileage.
UnclSlty
Saturn has recently released a technical bulletin concerning timing
chains. It involves 2 kits (1 for sohc and 1 for dohc engines) that
include a new oil pump cover with a 1mm hole in it that allows the timing
chain to be constantly lubricated with oil. Unfortunately it comes a bit
to late for some of you, but at least they are addressing the problem. It
also stated cars built after a certain VIN # starting in 1996 were not in
need of this new kit. Sounds like they got it all figured out.
Johnny G.
Steve Granata wrote:
>
> pa...@netcom.ca (monk) wrote:
>
> >You have a consumer product with no warranty protection and you want
> >some else to fix it when it breaks ? Nice try
>
> You're absolutely right I do! I have a consumer product, a 1994
> Saturn SL sedan, that came with a 3/36 warranty. The car
> self-destructed in my face 9,000 miles after the warranty expired.
>
> Simply put, I expected one hell of a lot higher quality from this
> supposedly 'reinvented' American car company. Instead they sold me a
> lemon. I bought my consumer product with an industry standard
> warranty, and the confidence that the product would last for years
> after the warranty expired. That is why I am furious at Saturn.
>
> In spite of any warranty, they're obligated to back those few 'lemon'
> products they sell each model year. Instead they stuck me with their
> lemon and told what I could do with my $1172 liability. Their image
> of a 'reinvented' higher-quality American car company is a consumer
> rip-off. My "Saturn ownership experience" has been enough to allow me
> to see right through this complete B.S.
>
> Steve Granata
> sgra...@bellatlantic.net
> http://members.aol.com/sgranata/
I notice most of these folks are getting pretty emotional about your
posts. I guess they feel a blown engine at 45K miles is pretty normal
for these engines, and you have no right to be angry. At 45K miles,
most engines are just getting broken in, but I guess a Saturn is pretty
well worn out, Steve
I've also seen the posts regarding the 3K mile oil changes. That's
pretty ridiculous for a modern engine, unless you used your car to haul
a large camper or you were using it for SCCA racing. Regarding oil
consumption--In my experience, most newer cars do not use any oil
between the recommended oil change intervals, unless they are driven
extremely hard, or they develop a leak. The tolerances are a lot
tighter and the metallurgy is better on modern engines than it was 20
years ago. Even so, engines from yesteryear lasted 100-150K miles
without major repairs. (I'm thinking of Mopar 318-360 V8's, Ford
289-302 V8 or the inline fours used in some of the old Datsun 510's and
P/U trucks, all old pushrod engines.) Today, manufacturers have taken a
giant step backward in regard to valvetrain technology. It seems as
though the camshaft drive system has become the Achilles heel on these
new engines. On my previous car, an '87 Chrysler Lebaron, the timing
belt slipped at 35K miles. I own a set of factory service manuals, and
there is no maintenance interval listed for the timing belt. Before the
Lebaron I owned a '69 Plymouth and a '76 Plymouth, both Mopar V8's, both
bought new, both driven hard and put away wet, and both cars ran for
100K+ miles with nothing more than routine maintenance. The camshaft
drive system didn't give up the ghost. So whatsa matter with these new
cars????
David Stafford
"Johnny G." <Jay...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
I think that it is bizarre that a person can read a post on one engine
(the only one that I have read about an engine failing at 45 or so K
miles) and conclude with "Whatsa(sp?) matter with these new cars????"
While unfortunate and unlucky for the person involved, and I
personally fell sorry for him, there is clearly inadequate data to
even remotely support such a conclusion. None of the responses,
sympathetic or not, have indicated a similar experience.
Cheers, David
sch...@hotmail.com
In article <335B35...@worldnet.att.net>,
Jay...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> I own a set of factory service manuals, and there is no maintenance
> interval listed for the timing belt. Before the Lebaron I owned a '69
> Plymouth and a '76 Plymouth, both Mopar V8's, both
> bought new, both driven hard and put away wet, and both cars ran for
> 100K+ miles with nothing more than routine maintenance. The camshaft
> drive system didn't give up the ghost. So whatsa matter with these new
> cars????
The difference is that most older engines were non-interference. A
broken timing chain or belt didn't destroy the engine.
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
David Stafford
Brad Hancock
Please post this TSB number, and if you have it, the text!
UnclSlty <uncl...@aol.com> wrote in article
<19970420012...@ladder01.news.aol.com>...
sch...@hotmail.com
In article <5jh5ji$5...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
po...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>
> sch...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >In article <335B35...@worldnet.att.net>,
> > Jay...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
> >> I own a set of factory service manuals, and there is no maintenance
> >> interval listed for the timing belt. Before the Lebaron I owned a '69
> >> Plymouth and a '76 Plymouth, both Mopar V8's, both
> >> bought new, both driven hard and put away wet, and both cars ran for
> >> 100K+ miles with nothing more than routine maintenance. The camshaft
> >> drive system didn't give up the ghost. So whatsa matter with these new
> >> cars????
>
> >The difference is that most older engines were non-interference. A
> >broken timing chain or belt didn't destroy the engine.
>
>
> David
What a useful post!
Let's see, Jay bought a '69 LeBaron new. If he were only 16 at the
time, he would now be 44. Hardly a high school student.
Myself, I finished high school 23 years ago, BSEE 18 years ago.
Your knowledge of engines is as wide as your knowledge of FM
radio, which is, judging from your posts, no knowledge at all.
On an interference engine, when the belt breaks the valves go
crashing into the pistons. On a non-interference engine they
don't. The attraction of the interference design is that you can
get a better power/size & weight ratio.
Some interference engines now use two belts, so in case one
breaks the engine is not destroyed. It's a good way to mitigate
the inherent danger of the interference design.
Why don't you take some classes on engine design and on radio
technology instead of continuing to make a complete fool of
yourself on this newsgroup.
Johnny G.
David Stafford wrote:
>
> sch...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> >In article <335B35...@worldnet.att.net>,
> > Jay...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>
> >> I own a set of factory service manuals, and there is no maintenance
> >> interval listed for the timing belt. Before the Lebaron I owned a '69
> >> Plymouth and a '76 Plymouth, both Mopar V8's, both
> >> bought new, both driven hard and put away wet, and both cars ran for
> >> 100K+ miles with nothing more than routine maintenance. The camshaft
> >> drive system didn't give up the ghost. So whatsa matter with these new
> >> cars????
>
> >The difference is that most older engines were non-interference. A
> >broken timing chain or belt didn't destroy the engine.
>
> > http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
>
> David
Wow, Super Dave!! Are you actually on the GM-Saturn payroll, or are
you simply having a love affair with your car?
JG
Johnny G.
> >
> > sch...@hotmail.com wrote:
> >
> > >In article <335B35...@worldnet.att.net>,
> > > Jay...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
> >
> > >> I own a set of factory service manuals, and there is no maintenance
> > >> interval listed for the timing belt. Before the Lebaron I owned a '69
> > >> Plymouth and a '76 Plymouth, both Mopar V8's, both
> > >> bought new, both driven hard and put away wet, and both cars ran for
> > >> 100K+ miles with nothing more than routine maintenance. The camshaft
> > >> drive system didn't give up the ghost. So whatsa matter with these new
> > >> cars????
> >
> > >The difference is that most older engines were non-interference. A
> > >broken timing chain or belt didn't destroy the engine.
> >
> >
> > David
>
>
> Let's see, Jay bought a '69 LeBaron new. If he were only 16 at the
> time, he would now be 44. Hardly a high school student.
>
> Myself, I finished high school 23 years ago, BSEE 18 years ago.
>
> Your knowledge of engines is as wide as your knowledge of FM
> radio, which is, judging from your posts, no knowledge at all.
>
> On an interference engine, when the belt breaks the valves go
> crashing into the pistons. On a non-interference engine they
> don't. The attraction of the interference design is that you can
> get a better power/size & weight ratio.
>
> Some interference engines now use two belts, so in case one
> breaks the engine is not destroyed. It's a good way to mitigate
> the inherent danger of the interference design.
>
> Why don't you take some classes on engine design and on radio
> technology instead of continuing to make a complete fool of
> yourself on this newsgroup.
>
'69 Plymouth Satellite 318 V8, which I acquired when I was ~19. Ran
like a champ for 120K miles before I traded it in 1976 for a Plymouth
Volare/Roadrunner. Other than oil changes, and an alternator change, I
did absolutely no maintenance on that car. (Couldn't afford it at the
time. And ol' Dad doesn't believe in lifting the hood on a perfectly
operational car:-). The '76 360 Plymouth V8 needed only the same amount
of maintenance as the '69, in the 10 years I owned it. Since I was a 21
year-old pup at the time, I outfitted it with a Holley Street Dominator
manifold and a Holley 4360 4 bbl carb. The car was reglarly thrashed
during high speed trips to the grocery store. However, I didn't
hesitate to take it on 2000 mile vacation trips with 50K+ on the
odometer.
I was trying to make a point: The engines built at that time rarely (if
ever) stopped operating and "blew" because the camshaft stopped
rotating. The modern automobile engine was becoming a paragon of
reliability before the advent of the newer camshaft drive systems.
Which cars employ the dual belt or chain for the OHC? It seems like a
pretty good idea, but how does the driver know if one of the
belts/chains has slipped or broken?
JG
ri...@interactive.spamthis.net
Johnny G. <Jay...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
:P~David Stafford wrote:
:P~>
:P~> sch...@hotmail.com wrote:
:P~>
:P~> >In article <335B35...@worldnet.att.net>,
:P~> > Jay...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
:P~>
:P~> >> I own a set of factory service manuals, and there is no maintenance
:P~> >> interval listed for the timing belt. Before the Lebaron I owned a '69
:P~> >> Plymouth and a '76 Plymouth, both Mopar V8's, both
:P~> >> bought new, both driven hard and put away wet, and both cars ran for
:P~> >> 100K+ miles with nothing more than routine maintenance. The camshaft
:P~> >> drive system didn't give up the ghost. So whatsa matter with these new
:P~> >> cars????
:P~>
:P~> >The difference is that most older engines were non-interference. A
:P~> >broken timing chain or belt didn't destroy the engine.
:P~>
:P~> >-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
:P~> > http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
:P~>
:P~> Ahh, the simplistic certainty of the High School set........Cheers,
:P~> David
:P~ Wow, Super Dave!! Are you actually on the GM-Saturn payroll, or are
:P~you simply having a love affair with your car?
Nah, he's just poking fun at Scharf. Scharf doesn't even own a
Saturn. He was involved, however, with a thinly-veiled scheme
where one or more folks used several anonymous remailers to post
phony claims about Saturn problems and even more phony claims
about "proof" they had from some mechanic. When confronted
with a request for the name of the mechanic or a pointer to
the "proof" they suddenly crawled back into the woodwork. I
note that "Karen Chiu" (who seems to share accounts with
Sharf or perhaps is just him using another name) doesn't
post to usenet at all since a few of us noticed what they
were doing and called their silly bluff. These anonymous
remailers seem to bring out the worst in people since they
can hurl BS and not have it attached to their real name.
You've got to wonder about the motivation behind something
that silly since they claim to not even own Saturns.
*laugh*
sch...@hotmail.com
In article <5jfo3s$i...@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>,
<snip>
> While unfortunate and unlucky for the person involved, and I
> personally fell sorry for him, there is clearly inadequate data to
> even remotely support such a conclusion. None of the responses,
> sympathetic or not, have indicated a similar experience.
There is adequate evidence.
First, there is the TSB on timing chains and the new cover with
the lubrication hole. This TSB is clearly to address the timing
chain problem that so many people have experienced.
Second, there are the TSBs on valve stem seals, pistons, and
rings. These are more related to the oil burning problem, but
the oil burning problem aggravates the timing chain problem.
Third, the emphasis that dealers place on 3K oil changes
(ridiculous in a modern, non-high performance engine),
indicates a great concern about the negative affects
of running the engine with insufficient oil. When they
go to the point of ripping out the 6K service schedule,
you know something's very wrong.
Fourth, while Mr. Granata is the most vocal about this issue
at this time, there have been many, many other instances of
people with timing chain problems in this group, i.e.
1. My 1994 Saturn just had to have it's timing chain replaced with only
55,000 miles. The mechanic said that it could have something to do with a
bleeder valve that they have since improved. Has anyone else had timimg
chain problems? If so, what were you told about the cause.
Richard Sleeman
AND
2. I had to have the timing chain in my '93 Saturn SC2 replaced at about
36,000 miles. The service manager said that it was due to a low oil
level. I don't know if this is possible or not. By the way, this was
how I found out I that my car was burning oil.
Steve
AND
3. I have a 93 SC2. I started to hear a funny noise from the engine at
about 40,000 miles and took it to the dealership. They said I needed a
tune up and that the noise was spark plug knock. I thought that seemed
strange since I know what that sounds like and the problem with my car
was different, but paid for the full scale tune up anyhow. As I was
paying for this, the mechanic came up to me and said that I would hear a
noise and it was my timing belt about to go......
Chaz
AND
4. I talked to the Saturn dealer and he > says the chain in my Saturn
will last a lifetime because it is a chain > and not a belt and it is
also oversize for the engine. Is this true? > HA!! Depends on how you
define "lifetime"...sure, it'll last a lifetime, 'cause (by definition)
once it dies, the lifetime's over, right???
My 94 SL2 lifetime was 35 months, 31200 miles.
Your lifetime may vary.
Tony A
AND
5. I was wondering if anyone else has had to replace the timing chain at
a relatively low mileage. I own a 1993 SC2 with 40,000 miles on
it.Saturn said the chain went becouse I did not change the oil often
enough. That is not correct!Just becouse I did not change my oil at
Saturn does not mean it was not changed .Has anyone else experienced
similar problems? Thank you.
(michael)
AND
6. ** the bleeder hole on the chain tensioner was to small on some cars.
** this caused excessive tension to be applied to the chian causing it
to ** stretch ( the tensioner is a spring loaded, oil pressure unit)..
there ** is only about an inch of total travel in the tensioner so it
doesnt ** take long to reach the end of its travel and allow the chain
to ** rattle. another common cause is lack of oil changes, a varnish
** deposit builds up on the tensioner and keeps it from moving freely in
** the bore... hope that helps.... ** ** mark ** saturn tech
AND
7. My SW2's timing belt started rattling at 56K miles, and we had it
replaced immediately. At the time, the car burned a little over a quart
each oil change. Starting at 65K miles, it burns 2.5qt/3K miles. We've
also been through two fuel pumps (one with a complete injection system),
two alternators, and the seat belt control module. Saturn hid behind the
warranty limitations and refused us any additional help.
AND
8. Supposedly the Timing Chain tensioner seems to break on a good number
of Saturns....
Now, is this just one of those things that happened to a few people,
but sounds like a big problem, OR is this a legit problem???
If it's legit has Saturn addressed and FIXED it on new 97 cars, or is
this still a problem waiting to happen?? (Remember the GM fiasco back
in the 70's or 80's with a Cadilliac's Aluminum Heads?? They would get
too hot and WARP)
Anyway, whats the FINAL word on the Timing Chain Tensioner problem(if
it even is one)
Michael
AND
9. ...Also with about 100,000km it burns about 1L of oil every 3Km. I
also had to have the timing chain replaced. I dont believe that Saturn
quality is anywhere near Japanese car quality!
(dpavie)
AND
10. I have a 1991 Saturn SL2 with just over 48,000 miles. I just had
the car in for a checkup because the battery light and check engine soon
light came on. The service department gave me a long list of needed
repairs, one of which included replacement of the timing chain. I also
was told that the timing chain went bad because I had failed to change
the oil often enough. This is not true. We changed the oil as
frequently as required....
Leon Goldsmith
AND
11. True. My 1994 SL2 timing chain tensioner failed at about 35000 mi or
so. Upon first start-up in the morning, the engine sounded like someone
drained the oil and replaced it with nuts and bolts. It was the most
eeerrrrreeee sound I've ever heard coming form an engine. I quickly shut
it off.
This was the second of three trips to Saturn of Madison on the back of
a truck!!
(John)
AND
12. This is like the sixth or seventh posting of a skipped timing chain
(both SOHC and DOHC). The problem doesn't seem to be the chain itself,
but the chain tensioner. The tensioner fails, the chain gets loose and
skips. The tensioner uses a hydraulic piston, that operates under engine
oil pressure to move a guide that takes up the chain slack. From the
other postings, it seems that the guide is prone to wearing out if the
oil is not changed very frequently.
I'd say it's a bug and Saturn should be on the hook.
Norm
AND
13. I took my SL2 in for valve train noise (35 months odl & 31,000
miles)..turns out the timing chain is "stretched" to the point
where it's hitting the head cover....but here's the KICKER...
SATURN REFUSES TO PAY for the fix, citing lack of maintenance!!! I've
changed the oil every 4-5000 miles, never had to add more than 1/2 a
quart in between. I gave them my receipts (I change it myself), but the
said the top end of the engine showed there were long gaps between
changes...I've been fighting them (local and the jerks at Spring Hill)
and have promised them I'd trash them at every opportunity if this isn't
settled sson...
...so everything IS NOT so rosy...watch out folks!!
Soon to be former Saturn owner.....
Tony
AND (a happy ending)
14. I was in the middle of a horror story the past few days with my '92
SL2 -- started with an elevated level of oil consumption, was told I
needed to get new valve stems (~$300), then I was told the timing chain
and guides needed to be replaced due to oil starvation (another ~$300),
and they needed to check for further damage within the engine. I was
freaking out since my warranty is expired and I couldn't handle my
engine literally falling apart on a relatively new car with only about
$50K on it. I was getting really angry until I received a call today
from the service rep saying that the bolt they had found in the oil pan
was not a bolt that had any right being in an engine. It was definitely
a Saturn bolt, but one used for the chassis or something. He thinks it
must have fallen in during assembly and I've been driving the car for
almost 4 years with it in there! He went on to say that Saturn HQ had
authorized replacing my entire engine under warranty. I was floored!
What an amazingly cool company.
(Mark)
AND
15. I'm timing belt broke last night (yes, on a dark road with a trunk
full of groceries). So I get it towed to a garage, and they'tr getting
to it.
My questions: I'm pretty sure that the Saturn engine (SOHC for me) is
a non-interference engine - i.e. shouldn't destroy valves and other
parts when it breaks. Can someone confirm or deny this?
Second, notwithstanding #1, should I expect other engine damage?
Third, If someones been through this before, any ideas about what this
one will cost me? The mechanic won't even give a ballpark until he calls
for parts, checks for damage, etc. (He's never fixed a Saturn before -
even bought a manual today - oh joy) Somebody please give me a clue! I
called my Saturn dealer and they gave me an estimate of $480 - but then
she asked if the car was still running - I said How could a car be
running with a broken timing chain./belt? SHe said the estimate was
based on the car still running. I'm missing something (or was she?)
(Larry)
AND
16. Our '93 SW2 has been the worst car I have ever owned, including an
'83 Chevette.
Here is the list of major problems we have had between the 24,000 mile
mark and 65,000 mile mark.
1. Fuel pump, injectors, and injector motors. 2. Fuel pump again. 3.
Seat belt controller module. 4. Alternator. (At this point the dealer
tried to sell us a new power steering pump, which was NOT needed,
instead of an alternator. We had this confirmed by two independent
mechanics.) 5. Timing chain. 6. Alternator again.
Thomas
---
Enough! Remember, for every person that complains about a problem
on Usenet, there are several hundred or several thousand that have the
problem but that we never hear about. And yes, there are several hundred
thousand that never experience the problem. But to imply that Mr.
Granata's experience is unique is simply untrue.
At this point I expect several things to happen:
1) One person will accuse every person in this list of being Karen Chiu,
and will claim tha since this post comes to you via Dejanews it's
all a hoax. No amount of evidence will ever convince him. Even
though he is certainly free to do the same searches of the Usenet
database I did, he prefers to name call rather than to ever post
coherent responses.
2) One person will advise each person to make sure their telephone and
answering machine are working, because Saturn is probably trying to
reach them to make restitution.
3) One person will claim that the Neon is even worse.
4) One person will claim that everyone that has had this problem is
a high school student.
5) I will get twenty more e-mails from people thanking me for saving
them from a costly mistake.
Responding to each bit of misinformation from these people
is getting rather tiring. A web site with all the Saturn information
is in development, and I expect to roll it out by the end of
June (happily, my ISP gives me 50MB of web space for my
$20 per month). As with all of my posts, it will be the facts,
and nothing but the facts, including references for the
dummies.
In the meantime, the best advice is that if a post is long on
personal attacks and short on documented and referenced
'facts, beware!
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
Johnny G.
David Stafford wrote:
>
> I think that it is bizarre that a person can read a post on one engine
> (the only one that I have read about an engine failing at 45 or so K
> While unfortunate and unlucky for the person involved, and I
> personally fell sorry for him, there is clearly inadequate data to
> even remotely support such a conclusion. None of the responses,
> sympathetic or not, have indicated a similar experience.
>
> "Cinnamon Girl" '97 Saturn SL
I've read his post and several Saturn owners replies saying that he is
essentially full of it. According to most of the posts, the guy's an
idiot because he didn't change the oil more frequently than the
manufacturer recommends, and he actually expects his engine to continue
operating after the factory warranty expires.
I drove a Saturn and found it to be a nice, fun to drive car. However,
after my bad experience with a FWD inline four Chrysler, I couldn't
convince myself to purchase another OHC I-4. Several of my co-workers
were unpleasantly surprised when their OHC I-4's quit running on cross
country vacation trips, because the camshaft stopped rotating. They
weren't all Mopars, or Saturns, etc. Like I said, the older cars didn't
have unreliable camshaft drive systems. If the engines conked out, it
usually wasn't because the camshaft stopped rotating.
So Wossamotta U? Are you an anal-retentive English teacher or
something?
Johnny G.
Johnny G. wrote:
> Thanks for the support. I'm actually 42, and my first car was Dad's old
> '69 Plymouth Satellite 318 V8, which I acquired when I was ~19. Ran
> like a champ for 120K miles before I traded it in 1976 for a Plymouth
> Volare/Roadrunner. Other than oil changes, and an alternator change, I
> did absolutely no maintenance on that car. (Couldn't afford it at the
> time. And ol' Dad doesn't believe in lifting the hood on a perfectly
> operational car:-). The '76 360 Plymouth V8 needed only the same amount
> of maintenance as the '69, in the 10 years I owned it. Since I was a 21
> year-old pup at the time, I outfitted it with a Holley Street Dominator
> manifold and a Holley 4360 4 bbl carb. The car was reglarly
Oops! For Dave the English teacher's benefit, I do know how to spell
"regularly"........
David Stafford
"Johnny G." <Jay...@worldnet.att.net> wrote:
Well, I did not call Mr. Granata (the origional poster) an idiot. If
you would read what I did say, you will see that. I did indicate that
reading one post about one bad experience is not enough on which to
base an informed conclusion. I drove an inline four OHC for many
years. In fact, I drove a number of them. One lasted for over twenty
five years (one new engine though). The others did not. I had some
good ones and some bad ones. Most were performance oriented engines.
All of the OHC engined cars that I owned did have a timing chain, and
most were very critical about oil levels (though not necessarily about
oil changes). I believe it to be a truism that smaller engines need a
higher degree of maintenance than the old detroit iron V8's. They do
have some major advantages, like much lower pollution and much better
gas milage. As far as me being an "anal retentive english teacher",
sorry you were offended. I was not, I was just not sure of your
spelling-hence my (sp?). I do not think that I am an anal retentive,
and I know that I am not an english teacher. I am an "or something" I
guess.
David Stafford
sch...@hotmail.com wrote:
>In article <5jh5ji$5...@sjx-ixn4.ix.netcom.com>,
> po...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
>>
>> sch...@hotmail.com wrote:
>>
>> >In article <335B35...@worldnet.att.net>,
>> > Jay...@worldnet.att.net wrote:
>>
>> >> I own a set of factory service manuals, and there is no maintenance
>> >> interval listed for the timing belt. Before the Lebaron I owned a '69
>> >> Plymouth and a '76 Plymouth, both Mopar V8's, both
>> >> bought new, both driven hard and put away wet, and both cars ran for
>> >> 100K+ miles with nothing more than routine maintenance. The camshaft
>> >> drive system didn't give up the ghost. So whatsa matter with these new
>> >> cars????
>>
>> >The difference is that most older engines were non-interference. A
>> >broken timing chain or belt didn't destroy the engine.
>>
>>
>> Ahh, the simplistic certainty of the High School set........Cheers,
>> David
>What a useful post!
>Let's see, Jay bought a '69 LeBaron new. If he were only 16 at the
>time, he would now be 44. Hardly a high school student.
>Myself, I finished high school 23 years ago, BSEE 18 years ago.
>Your knowledge of engines is as wide as your knowledge of FM
>radio, which is, judging from your posts, no knowledge at all.
>On an interference engine, when the belt breaks the valves go
>crashing into the pistons. On a non-interference engine they
>don't. The attraction of the interference design is that you can
>get a better power/size & weight ratio.
>Some interference engines now use two belts, so in case one
>breaks the engine is not destroyed. It's a good way to mitigate
>the inherent danger of the interference design.
>Why don't you take some classes on engine design and on radio
>technology instead of continuing to make a complete fool of
>yourself on this newsgroup.
>-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
> http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
I would not pay the slightest attention to anything that this critter
says.
Kirk Kohnen <_kohnen@ibm.net>
sch...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> In article <5jfo3s$i...@dfw-ixnews12.ix.netcom.com>,
> ...
> At this point I expect several things to happen:
>
> 1) One person will accuse every person in this list of being Karen Chiu,
> and will claim tha since this post comes to you via Dejanews it's
> all a hoax. No amount of evidence will ever convince him. Even
> though he is certainly free to do the same searches of the Usenet
> database I did, he prefers to name call rather than to ever post
> coherent responses.
>
> 2) One person will advise each person to make sure their telephone and
> answering machine are working, because Saturn is probably trying to
> reach them to make restitution.
>
> 3) One person will claim that the Neon is even worse.
>
> 4) One person will claim that everyone that has had this problem is
> a high school student.
>
> 5) I will get twenty more e-mails from people thanking me for saving
> them from a costly mistake.
>
JohnR98294
In article <rod_murray-11...@rmurray.mitre.org>,
rod_m...@iegate.mitre.org (Rod Murray) writes:
>In article <5iev7q$g...@world1.bawave.com>, sgra...@bellatlantic.net
>(Steve Granata) wrote:
>
>
>The car was out of warranty. Saturn offered a 3 year 36k miles warranty
>and you bought the car with that understanding. There are going to be
>cars that break down at 5k, 20k, 35,999, 36,001, 90k, 180k, and 300k
>miles. It's a bell curve and Saturn drew the line at 36K and you agreed
>to that when you bought it. Same thing for Honda, Toyota, Ford, Chevy
>ect... The difference is that you have a snowballs chance of getting
>Honda or Toyota to pay half for their out of warranty catastrophies.
It's
>just reality. It's not a happy thing for people who are unlucky enough
to
>fall on your section of the bell curve but that group of people IS going
>to exist and it IS going to exist for all makes of cars.
>
>In my opinion Saturn was very generous to pay for half. Their obligation
>to pay ended at 36k. They went above and beyond their obligation. Did
you
>think that the 36k limitation on the warranty wasn't real? Did you think
>the car secretly had a 72k miles warranty? Or do you not understand
>statistics and realize that all of us, no matter what car we buy, stand a
>statistical chance of having a major malfunction shortly after the
>warranty expires?
>
>rjm
>
>
Wow! Signs of intelligent life?
John W. Reese II
Rod Murray
In article <5j9ftr$t...@camel2.mindspring.com>,
us03...@no-spam.mindspring.com (Frank Yang) wrote:
> >I don't agree with Steve but I also think this 6K oil change topic is much
> >ado about nothing. I have a 93 SL1 with 129,000 miles on it. I have
> >changed the oil faithfully every 10,000 miles since the car was new. I
> >use oil analysis and the report is always concluded with the statement,
> >"no unusual wear noted" The car runs like the day I bought it. I do use
> >a high quality synthetic oil and a fairly expensive oil filter though and
> >most of my driving is highway. YMMV
> >
> >rod murray
> >
>
>
> Duh, synthetic oil is supposed to give you a 7k-10k oil change. With
> conventional oil, 3k is the norm and 6k is for those who drive in greenhouse.
> :-)
>
> - Frank
Duh, well sorry Frank but the issue isn't as settled in the minds of many
people as perhaps it is in yours.
rjm
--
Conventional wisdom says, "You get what you pay for" With cigars however this is not necessarily true. I have smoked many a $5 cigar that had neither the flavor nor the quality of construction found in my favorite $1 cigar.
Frank Yang
In article <rod_murray-02...@rmurray.mitre.org>,
rod_m...@iegate.mitre.org says...
>
>In article <5j9ftr$t...@camel2.mindspring.com>,
>us03...@no-spam.mindspring.com (Frank Yang) wrote:
>
>
>> >I don't agree with Steve but I also think this 6K oil change topic is
much
>> >ado about nothing. I have a 93 SL1 with 129,000 miles on it. I have
>> >changed the oil faithfully every 10,000 miles since the car was new. I
>> >use oil analysis and the report is always concluded with the statement,
>> >"no unusual wear noted" The car runs like the day I bought it. I do use
>> >a high quality synthetic oil and a fairly expensive oil filter though and
>> >most of my driving is highway. YMMV
>> >
>> >rod murray
>> >
>>
>>
>> Duh, synthetic oil is supposed to give you a 7k-10k oil change. With
>> conventional oil, 3k is the norm and 6k is for those who drive in
greenhouse.
>> :-)
>>
>> - Frank
>
>Duh, well sorry Frank but the issue isn't as settled in the minds of many
>people as perhaps it is in yours.
>
>rjm
>
I agree somewhat. There will always be some who try to skimp on $25 oil
change, then keep fingers crossed and pray nothing would happen. They just
don't get it. The average car price is $20,000. It takes $100 a year to
maintain a lousy car, or $300 a year to keep it in super top shape, wash and
wax included. I personally would spend the extra $200. :-)
Those folks probably brush and bath every other day. Don't go near them.:-)
- Frank