98TJ Rotted freeze-plugs/Bad Antifreeze
Mood
When I pulled over to investigate, an awful brown liquid was steaming
out of the block, I thought it was the head gasket. It was towed to the
dealer Saturday, now I'm being told the coolant is bad and the freeze
plugs and radiator are rotted and leaking. In addition, the water pump
bearings are shot. I don't disagree with the diagnosis at all, but I'm
quite puzzled.
This Jeep had a flush and coolant change about 2 years ago in the fall.
I can't understand what in the hell ruined the coolant so fast? I know
it's about due for another flush, but this situation seems really bad
considering the amount of corrosion, any ideas?
Billy Ray
Most of the stuff out there is the GM/Texaco Dexcool formula and it has
earned a reputation for causing the damage you describe.
DC directly states it should NOT be used in any DC vehicle
The only DC approved antifreeze is Valvoline's Zerex G-05. It may be hard
to find, I had to drive half way across the county to find it at pepboys.
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"Mood" <Jim...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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Mood
forumlations are orange or red? The last flush and fill was done at a
local mechanic.
Coasty
factor even on the 5 year stuff most still need changing in 2 years.
http://www.acustrip.com/specs/3-wayafhd.html
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"Mood" <Jim...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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Clay
What's a "DC vehicle"?
I just put a new radiator in girlfriendzilla's 92 Cherokee. I used plain
old Prestone. Is this nfg or ???
Brandonb
Clay
Guess I have a hard time thinking of a jeep as a Chrysler... for that
matter, Daimler has always associated with Benz in my mind.
Is Prestone ok in the '92 Cherokee?
Billy Ray
replace the engine and cooling systems.
You can still get "American Green" 2 year antifreeze which would be
acceptable for your '92. That being said it is only $1 a gallon cheaper
than the superior, and recommended by DC, G-05 spec antifreeze.
You can get the G-05 antifreeze at your local DC dealership, Ford
dealership, Mercedes dealership and (in Cincinnati) Pepboys. All the above
are manufactured by Valvoline. The Zerex G-05 antifreeze comes in a
golden-yellow jug.
You cannot get it at AutoZone, Advance Auto Parts, NAPA, Wal-Mart, K-Mart,
or Target (in Cincinnati) as they carry Prestone products.
If you read the Prestone label they claim to meet DC specs but DC
specifically says NOT to use DexCool (OAT) based coolants. Only HOAT based
coolants and the only HOAT based is made by Valvoline.
I can forward you (anyone) a 3 page excerpt from DC concerning engine
coolant. Just send a note with your e-mail address to me below (remove
SPAM)
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"Clay" <cl...@mation.com> wrote in message
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Billy Ray
quickie-lube.
I could not believe the c*ap that came out when I back flushed the system.
The fluid was basically a brownish pre-sludge.
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"Mood" <Jim...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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L.W. Hughes III
container: http://www.Prestone.com/ and change it by two years. It has
been proven this new environmental safe rust colored coolant the
screaming Greenies have forced the manufactures to use, breaks down
quickly and electrolysis soon destroys the engine.
God Bless America, Bill O|||||||O
mailto:LWHug...@aol.com http://www.billhughes.com/
Mood
soup. I'd be interested in the letter you have from DC. The repair is
being done by the dealer now, so I'm sure it's Mopar antifreeze going
in. To bad the bastards are raking me for $1300. I'll post the
itemized bill later but the work I know they are doing is:
Replace water pump
Replace head and block freeze plugs
Replace radiator
Hopefully nothing else has been rotted out by the quick-lube cooling
system service I had 2 years ago.
-Jim
Mood
becoming more apparent that using manufacturer specific coolant is more
important that I thought.
Clay
I had no idea there were so many specific applications/requirements for
antifreeze.
thanks for posting it.
L.W. Hughes III
you a member of the screaming Greenies?
Mood
The article claims that Prestone is changing from their "Conventional
America Green" formula of
"silicate and phosphate inhibitors, and benzoate, a
type of organic acid inhibitor."
They continue with:
"Prestone conventional antifreeze, with greenish-gold dye,
actually was the leading seller, but that antifreeze is being
phased out in favor of a DexCool formula."
Hmmmm Dexcool, AWESOME!!
Now if you believe the rest of this article, here comes the nail in the
coffin:
"If it's a Ford or Chrysler Group product, or a
European car (except VW/Audi) top up with
G-05. It's available, and if you aren't using it as
one of your standard shop antifreezes, it's no
big deal to keep a few containers on the shelf.
After all, it also is approved as a retrofit
antifreeze on those makes. Do not use Prestone
Extended Life gold."
So that Prestone Green that has been recently promoted as a "universal"
replacement is not at all compatible with DC products like Billy said.
Don't know if anyone here watches the PowerBlock on Spike, but Prestone
has been pushing there green sludge as a one-fits-all replacement for
any cooling system. I doubt the local quickie-lube is stocking
manufacturer specific coolant. Something smells like class-action
around here....
-Jim
Mood
soup :) I don't think the issue is with the anti-freezing agent, but
with the anti-corrosion additives and according to the article Prestone
is changing their formula. I take issue with a product that is marketed
as a universal coolant replacement that functions as much less than
that.
I agree I'm a dunce for not checking the condition of the coolant
sooner. I sure didn't expect coolant that went in bright green to come
out two years later like brown sludge with my engine block dissolved it
it. According to the service shop manager I spoke to today, there was
hardly a hint of green left in it.
L.W. Hughes III
down in that convenient place in our owner's manual? Sometimes time
flies by when we're having fun, and two years or thirty thousand miles
are past and automatic is slipping saying it's too late.
Billy Ray
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"Mood" <Jim...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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Billy Ray
cannot find it.
It is good to hear they are finally fixing the problem but I am sure the fix
will be 'new and improved" not ... "sorry we made a defective product and
lied about the damage we knew it was causing for 10 years."
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"Mood" <Jim...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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Billy Ray
additives.
DexCool was designed by Texaco for GM to eat away and clog everything in the
cooling system. That way they sell more replacement parts and the
dealerships make profits off repair labor. To GM that is a win-win
scenario.
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"L.W. ("ßill") Hughes III" <billh...@cox.net> wrote in message
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Billy Ray
are alleging.
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"Mood" <Jim...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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Earle Horton
heating system in my house. I had two cases of no-name Walmart green
antifreeze left over, and this has served me since then. I do not
change or flush coolant. I never have, unless there was an obvious
reason for it, like conspicuous lime deposits in the visible radiator
tubes, or a leak. All of the leaks that I have serviced in this time
have been from known, explicable causes, like a pebble in the radiator
for example. I have always used a 50/50 mix of distilled or known
clean, soft tap water, and ethylene glycol antifreeze. The coolant in
my Jeep is still the same color and consistency as when it was new. It
is ten years old. I knew a guy in 1976 with a 1952 GMC wrecker, that
he claimed had the original factory antifreeze in it.
I gather from this thread that when my case of no-name Walmart runs
out, things could change. At least I won't be required to change the
120 gallons in my home heating system, every two years. Better keep
those fingers crossed.
>From the Prestone web site, the yellow container now sports "New
Prestone® All Makes All Models Extended Life Antifreeze/Coolant" which
contains "a patented Organic Acid Technology formula". This is
probably a pH buffer, if you took college freshman chemistry. If you
took the lab, you should know that any buffer can be overloaded, by
adding enough base or acid. I don't know the composition of this
stuff, but it's a pretty good bet that it would break down
spontaneously too. I think that the black container, "Prestone® Heavy
Duty Antifreeze/ Coolant", with its "blend of ethylene glycol and a
specially formulated inhibitor package designed for heavy duty cooling
system applications" might be a better buy. They seem to be saying
that "ethylene glycol" = "heavy duty".
Earle
Mood
which
I don't know the composition of this
stuff, but it's a pretty good bet that it would break down
spontaneously too."
Earle,
"Prestone All Makes All Models" contains Organic Acid Technology or
"OAT." The factory service manual specifically states that you should
never use this formula in a late model Jeep (Thanks for the info
Billy).
If you read the pdf article I posted and the factory service manual,
HOAT (Hybrid Organic Acid Technology) G-05 formulation contains both
traditional corrosion inhibitors found in the "Classic American Green"
and also the newer OAT inhibitiors that are found in the newer Dexcool
type formulations. The HOAT (G-05)contains an effective mixture of
both inhibitors. Mixing OAT with "Classic American Green" leaves a
mixture that is unable to properly pH buffer and protect metal surfaces
in the engine.
Furthermore, the article also says that brass and copper are not well
protected by OAT formulations. The block and head freeze plugs are the
major leakage sources in my sitiuation, so I still suspect this
new-fangled Dexcool was used at my last cooling system service.
Bill,
The coolant was flushed and changed by a local Quick Lube in January,
so it's 2 years 2 months according to my maintenance log book. You
could say I'm streching the truth, but I've never seen fluid like this
come out of a cooling system.
-Jim
Billy Ray
especially those of us over 40 <cough, ahem> where because of hectic lives
(or impending senility) time passes much faster than we expect.
Bill is also aware of the condition caused by failure to maintain vehicles
from back in his Chevron days.
The DexCool caused brown sludge is different than back-in-the day rusty
coolant. Back then you had good coverage for 2 years and then the
protection slowly declined and the cooling system and block would begin to
corrode and rust.
DexCool starts attacking the moment you pour it in. If you read the web
posts you will find a large number of cooling system failures while the
vehicle was still under warranty and although they advertise DexCool as a 5
year coolant they were denying claims over 3 years.
Looking back I wished I had taken some pix of what came out of my '02 and
saved a sample in a glass jar. It was really nasty looking stuff that was
much different in appearance to what I recall from my old gas station days.
Earle Horton
because it comes in a yellow container, according to their web site,
and that is what Bill says, that he has been using. According to the
"Real ethylene glycol" comment, maybe be wants the black container
stuff now. The (apparently) good stuff is now labelled "Prestone®
Heavy Duty Antifreeze/Coolant" and comes in one gallon black plastic
containers. "Heavy Duty" looks good to me, but still you have to
remember that everything printed on the outside of a consumer package,
is hype. I should know. I used to work for Microsoft.
By the way, if deer or other wildlife should happen to ingest any of
the ethylene glycol that leaks out of your vehicle, try giving them
beer, as an antidote. Ethylene glycol as a poison acts by being turned
into insoluble crystals in the kidneys, and thereby damaging them, or
eliminating kidney function entirely. Ethanol in beer displaces
ethylene glycol from this process, and causes it to be voided as a
liquid. If you get the beer to them early enough, you can save them.
There should be no trouble getting deer or any other woodland critters
to drink beer.
Earle
yjarray
Not sure what people mean by 'late-model' in a jeep forum, it could be
interpreted in a variety of ways (IE disc brakes / fuel injection /
computer / cat conv / radial tires / heater / doors = late model jeep)
Mood
would take, but it seems what is most important is that you add what
you already have in the system. I would ASSume this is "Classic
American Green." Pouring new formula Prestone a.k.a Dexcool a.k.a OAT
in your radiator might cause problems. That .pdf paper I linked has
the details on what you should look for in the ingredients.
Coasty
practice.
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"Earle Horton" <nurseb...@msn.com> wrote in message
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L.W. Hughes III
Thanks for finding they had switch the formulas over what my last
yellow had: http://www.billhughes.com/temp/prestone.jpg I will double
check for the Real coolant with ethylene glycol is in. I have forgot why
the coolant will breaks down, but it does just like the transmission
oil, maybe heat cycling.
mailto:LWHug...@aol.com
L.W. Hughes III
Yes, I will switch container colors, thanks. I promise to look for
leaks so as not to poison all the cats of the neighborhood, that love to
drink alcohol like I.
Earle Horton wrote:
>
> I mentioned the Prestone "patented Organic Acid Technology formula"
> because it comes in a yellow container, according to their web site,
> and that is what Bill says, that he has been using. According to the
> "Real ethylene glycol" comment, maybe be wants the black container
> stuff now. The (apparently) good stuff is now labelled "PrestoneŽ
L.W. Hughes III
from our environment.
Jo Bo
http://www.peakantifreeze.com/referencechart.html and it shows Chrysler
vehicles 2001 and older and 2002 and newer. Where does that leave our jeeps?
JoBo
"Mood" <Jim...@gmail.com> wrote in message
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> My 98 TJ SE developed a bad coolant leak out a freeze plug in the head.
> When I pulled over to investigate, an awful brown liquid was steaming
> out of the block, I thought it was the head gasket. It was towed to the
> dealer Saturday, now I'm being told the coolant is bad and the freeze
> plugs and radiator are rotted and leaking. In addition, the water pump
> bearings are shot. I don't disagree with the diagnosis at all, but I'm
> quite puzzled.
>
> This Jeep had a flush and coolant change about 2 years ago in the fall.
> I can't understand what in the hell ruined the coolant so fast? I know
> it's about due for another flush, but this situation seems really bad
> considering the amount of corrosion, any ideas?
>
Billy Ray
long as you flush and refill every 2 years
On the other hand you can spend an additional $1 a gallon and get the G-05
stuff that has better anti-corrosion capacity. Valvoline says it is good
for 5 years but I may change it around 3.5 years (late fall '08 in my case).
why would I do this you are thinking....... The answer(s) are fairly
simple.
1. I have had vehicles with cooling system problems and once the problems
get bad they NEVER go away.
2. I prefer to prevent serious problems with small and regular applications
of time and money than large applications of money and downtime cause by
systems failures at inconvenient times
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"yjarray" <yja...@mytrashmail.com> wrote in message
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Billy Ray
propylene glycol instead of ethylene glycol..
http://www.sierraantifreeze.com/
It should be mentioned that Sierra not "non-toxic" as the advertising
implies.....just less toxic. That is the same rouse that the Sierra Club
uses, they conceal their true purpose as environmental terrorists with the
occasional sponsorship of trash removal from a city parks.
Sierra is also less effective as a coolant and while they claim that GM says
it won't void the vehicle warranty it DOES NOT meet DC specs for newer cars.
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"L.W. ("ßill") Hughes III" <billh...@cox.net> wrote in message
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Billy Ray
company) no product made by them meets the current DC spec and their
chemically composition contains what DC specifically warns against using.
(OAT additives)
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"Jo Bo" <jroma...@columbus.rr.com> wrote in message
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Billy Ray
radiator additive on a scheduled basis to your class 8's to supplement what
was used up..
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"L.W. ("ßill") Hughes III" <billh...@cox.net> wrote in message
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Earle Horton
drain from the cars, for topping off and repairs to the home heating
system! I probably have a fist-sized hole in my water pump now, for
not changing the coolant every two years, if you believe everything
that you read in manufacturers' propaganda.
I'm sticking with the green stuff. I still have a case from Walmart,
that is six years old, somewhere.
Earle