new Honda CR-V break in
Guy
What is the proper way?
I don't care what the manual says. What do you guys feel is the best
mileage to do the first oil change? I normally change my oil and
filter around 3500 miles on my other cars with no synthetic.
jim beam
> I got a new 2010 CR-V and wife asked me how to break it in properly.
> What is the proper way?
>
> I don't care what the manual says.
in that case, you should get rid of this vehicle and go buy a buick.
buh-bye!
Guy
>On 12/31/2009 05:41 PM, Guy wrote:
>> I got a new 2010 CR-V and wife asked me how to break it in properly.
>> What is the proper way?
>>
>> I don't care what the manual says.
>
>in that case, you should get rid of this vehicle and go buy a buick.
>buh-bye!
>
I didn't mean the manual was wrong but wanted to know what
experience(s) work well with a new Honda. Maybe most don't follow the
manual???
Brian Smith
> I got a new 2010 CR-V and wife asked me how to break it in properly.
> What is the proper way?
What does the manual tell you to do in regards to the proper way to
deal with the break in period?
> I don't care what the manual says. What do you guys feel is the best
> mileage to do the first oil change? I normally change my oil and
> filter around 3500 miles on my other cars with no synthetic.
By the sounds of your second paragraph, you may as well disregard my
first portion of my reply. The manual was written by the people who
designed and built the vehicle. *They* know what the vehicle needs and
how it needs to be treated throughout its life.
Joe
Drive it normal, without a heavy foot, and change oil when the
maintenance minder tells you. The original oil is a special blend,
and it doesn't make sense to take it out before necessary.
--
Joe - Linux User #449481/Ubuntu User #19733
joe at hits - buffalo dot com
"Hate is baggage, life is too short to go around pissed off all the
time..." - Danny, American History X
Guy
wrote:
>On 2010-01-01, Guy <vo...@void.com> wrote:
>> I got a new 2010 CR-V and wife asked me how to break it in properly.
>> What is the proper way?
>>
>> I don't care what the manual says. What do you guys feel is the best
>> mileage to do the first oil change? I normally change my oil and
>> filter around 3500 miles on my other cars with no synthetic.
>
>Drive it normal, without a heavy foot, and change oil when the
>maintenance minder tells you. The original oil is a special blend,
>and it doesn't make sense to take it out before necessary.
Thanks Joe for answering my question. I wasn't trying to disrespect
the manual but I really just wanted to know what others actually did
or didn't do. Of course I'll read / re-read parts of the manual. I
remember the sales person mentioning something about a reminder
light?? I haven't had a new car in a while so I forgot what I did
exactly but I remember back in the 70's with a new car, driving under
55 for like 500 miles or so. I thought I read more recently that due
to tighter tolerances, break in wasn't necessary on newer cars. I
guess I was wondering what others thought. Perhaps I didn't word my
orig post well and most jumped down my throat. Thanks Joe for at
least trying to answer me without accusations. Appreciate that.
Tegger
4ax.com:
You just entrusted Honda with tens of thousands of your dollars in exchange
for a complicated machine that might as well be a "black box" to you.
The engineers that designed the vehicle and its systems have performed
testing that consumed hundreds of millions of dollars and millions of hours
of time. Some of that testing was done in order to determine the
maintenance requirements.
The end result of all that testing is manifested in the Maintenance Minder
on your dashboard, and in the Maintenance Schedule in the Owner's Manual.
If you're willing to trust Honda enough to purchase a piece of their
complex, precision machinery, but regard as suspect Honda's official word
on how to take care of it, preferring the opinions of anonymous, uneducated
Usenet posters instead, you're asking for trouble.
Having said that, I am of the opinion that you can never change your oil
too often. I draw a distinction, however, between replacement of the
factory fill and subsequent oil changes.
It has not been established with 100% certainty that the factory fill is
indeed ordinary off-the-shelf motor oil. It might be slightly different
from off-the-shelf, but nobody really knows. For that reason I would leave
the factory fill in until the Minder says to replace it. After that, change
it /more/ often than required if you like. And always use an OEM filter.
--
Tegger
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
jim beam
> In article<jaiqj59fcmiu02eqs...@4ax.com>,
> "Guy"<vo...@void.com> wrote:
>
>> I got a new 2010 CR-V and wife asked me how to break it in properly.
>> What is the proper way?
>>
>> I don't care what the manual says.
>
> to some newsgroup and have anonymous voices tell you something.
>
> In other words, you're shopping for an answer that you think is right.
> You've already decided, you just want someone to agree. You don't think
> the engineers have it right, so that's why you're here.
>
> Fact: the owner's manual is the only authoritative resource, and
> anything you hear here is more likely than not to be nothing more than
> old wives' tales, handed down from father to son without interference
> from actual knowledge or facts.
>
> Have fun with your shiny new $25,000 toy.
this is the piece of psychology that always completely blows my mind -
the bit where people can spend a bunch of dough, then completely
disregard what they put it into. if they had a suitcase with $25,000 in
hundreds, would they toss it out of a moving car with the lid open and
watch the notes get blown away in the wind? of course not. but when
those bills are all stuck together and shaped like a "car", psychology
completely changes - owners manual? pshaw!
this is contrasted with their behavior when getting on a plane. they
pay money to sit compliantly and unquestioningly while they put their
lives literally into the hands of other people who they have faith will
proceed to follow the thousands and thousands of instructions in the
plane's "owners manual", precisely and exactly, and thereby arrive at
their destination safely.
to summarize:
* flying on a plane - they trust experts to know what they're doing.
* driving a car - johnny shade tree is trusted and the experts are
actively not.
freakin' humans - they are so bizarrely perversely weird.
jim beam
"rtfm" is not an accusation, guy - it's simply trying to save you from
yourself.
jim beam
> "Guy"<vo...@void.com> wrote in news:jaiqj59fcmiu02eqs7tsh5gcjm8a2bbhig@
> 4ax.com:
>
>> I got a new 2010 CR-V and wife asked me how to break it in properly.
>> What is the proper way?
>>
>> I don't care what the manual says. What do you guys feel is the best
>> mileage to do the first oil change? I normally change my oil and
>> filter around 3500 miles on my other cars with no synthetic.
>
>
>
> You just entrusted Honda with tens of thousands of your dollars in exchange
> for a complicated machine that might as well be a "black box" to you.
>
> The engineers that designed the vehicle and its systems have performed
> testing that consumed hundreds of millions of dollars and millions of hours
> of time. Some of that testing was done in order to determine the
> maintenance requirements.
>
> The end result of all that testing is manifested in the Maintenance Minder
> on your dashboard, and in the Maintenance Schedule in the Owner's Manual.
>
> If you're willing to trust Honda enough to purchase a piece of their
> complex, precision machinery, but regard as suspect Honda's official word
> on how to take care of it, preferring the opinions of anonymous, uneducated
> Usenet posters instead, you're asking for trouble.
>
> Having said that, I am of the opinion that you can never change your oil
> too often.
with respect, that opinion is underinformed. from
http://www.swri.org/3pubs/IRD1999/03912699.htm
we read: "Testing with partially stressed oil, which contained some wear
debris, produced less wear than testing with clean oil."
provided you're not using cheap garbage oil with a poor additive package
or a poor base that's breaking down, there is no point changing your oil
more frequently than factory spec. especially with a maintenance
minder. better yet, get oil analysis done - with analysis and a quality
full synthetic, i'm looking at 20k miles between changes, based on my
driving pattern.
Tegger
news:Bbqdnf6d8-IJhKPW...@speakeasy.net:
> On 01/01/2010 07:33 AM, Tegger wrote:
>>
>> Having said that, I am of the opinion that you can never change your
>> oil too often.
>
> with respect, that opinion is underinformed. from
> http://www.swri.org/3pubs/IRD1999/03912699.htm
This is an extremely interesting document, so thanks for the link. However,
it dates from 1999.
The last paragraph is significant, in that the authors note their findings
have not yet been fleshed-out or verified by additional testing, and are
based on limited data.
Quite a lot may have happened in the succeeding ten years since that doc
was written, but there's nothing new on the SwRI site.
>
> we read: "Testing with partially stressed oil, which contained some
> wear debris, produced less wear than testing with clean oil."
And this: "...many oil chemistries require time and temperature to enhance
their effectiveness".
I'm really curious what real-world lessons those statements and test
results have for us car owners. They have a contact page, I see. Next week
I'll submit a few questions to them in the hopes of getting an answer.
Stay tuned...
jim beam
> jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote in
> news:Bbqdnf6d8-IJhKPW...@speakeasy.net:
>
>> On 01/01/2010 07:33 AM, Tegger wrote:
>
>>>
>>> Having said that, I am of the opinion that you can never change your
>>> oil too often.
>>
>> with respect, that opinion is underinformed. from
>> http://www.swri.org/3pubs/IRD1999/03912699.htm
>
>
>
> This is an extremely interesting document, so thanks for the link. However,
> it dates from 1999.
>
> The last paragraph is significant, in that the authors note their findings
> have not yet been fleshed-out or verified by additional testing, and are
> based on limited data.
>
> Quite a lot may have happened in the succeeding ten years since that doc
> was written, but there's nothing new on the SwRI site.
1999 or not, that doesn't change the physics. think of it like this:
solid ice can rough you up pretty badly. water offers almost no
lubrication worth worrying about. but ice slurry, where the smaller
particles are free to slide among themselves, can be a fantastic remover
of friction.
>
>
>>
>> we read: "Testing with partially stressed oil, which contained some
>> wear debris, produced less wear than testing with clean oil."
>
>
> And this: "...many oil chemistries require time and temperature to enhance
> their effectiveness".
that means you leave to oil /in/ for it to reach maximum effectiveness!
to be clear though - i would not recommend it for cheap oil - that
stuff breaks down, loses viscosity and sludges up your engine. but i
wouldn't use cheap oil - period. breakdown, poor additive packages,
lousy seal conditioning - just stay away.
>
> I'm really curious what real-world lessons those statements and test
> results have for us car owners. They have a contact page, I see. Next week
> I'll submit a few questions to them in the hopes of getting an answer.
>
> Stay tuned...
that would be great - thank you!
Guy
<el...@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>In article <mgurj5leh45saqfk9...@4ax.com>,
> "Guy" <vo...@void.com> wrote:
>
>> Of course I'll read / re-read parts of the manual. I
>> remember the sales person mentioning something about a reminder
>> light??
>
>wow.
>
>Spend $25,000 and you don't read the manual first thing, and you don't
>pay attention when the guy shows you details?
>
>wow.
I guess you haven't bought a new vehicle lately. If you did, you
might have more important things on your mind at the time of purchase
then the maintenance minder. Besides it's in the manual to read,
right? Then no big deal as I see it.
>
>Yes, it's called Maintenance Minder. It will show a letter/number
>combination when maintenance is due, and you look in the owner's manual
>(yes, there's that nasty word again) to find out what services are
>associated with that combination.
>
>What you DON'T do is blindly walk into a dealer and tell them "I have B3
>due" and let the dealer define what should be done. That's just license
>to steal. Do what the owner's manual says.
I will.
>
>And ignore the maintenance minder at your own risk, frankly--be that
>mechanical risk to the car, or financial risk to your wallet.
I do on my Accord and no problem. I do oil changes religiously at
3500 miles despite what the maintenance light says on my accord. So
far it's runs well. Personally I've read Hondas can be abused and
still no problems. I don't recommend abusing them but I don't think
you need to follow the manual to the T either. I babied a Chevy I
bought new once and it was a lemon from day one. I think the manual
is a great guide but not a bible as some people make it out to be
here. I think judgement is always a good thing. I was hoping
people here had some but apparently not. I guess they just follow
the manual blindly without judgement. Engineers are good but they
aren't gods.
Joe
> In article <Xns9CF36B32...@208.90.168.18>,
> Tegger <inv...@invalid.inv> wrote:
>
>> It has not been established with 100% certainty that the factory fill is
>> indeed ordinary off-the-shelf motor oil. It might be slightly different
>> from off-the-shelf, but nobody really knows. For that reason I would leave
>> the factory fill in until the Minder says to replace it. After that, change
>> it /more/ often than required if you like. And always use an OEM filter.
>
> that your father knew what he was doing--and continue to use the same
> crush washer on the drain plug. Use a new one every time.
>
> Even better if you follow the service manual and tighten the drain plug
> with a torque wrench to the specified torque. I'm happy to know that my
> DEALERSHIP mechanic, a true professional technician, does that every
> time. (Yeah, that's right--I request this guy for everything, even oil
> changes.)
>
> Going back to what jim and Tegger said, Honda says to use a new crush
> washer for a reason. Is that five cents REALLY going to break you? If
> so, you need to reconsider your car purchase.
Yup. It's the main reason that I get my oil changes done at the local
Delta Sonic car wash chain (they added oil-change and other
maintenance services at several locations). MANY chains will do
things like ignoring the recommended oil, use inferior filters, and
never change the crush washer. This place does better service for oil
changes than my closest dealership, so I stick with them. The price
is the same, but the service is better.
It makes sense to be informed. Talk to the technician doing the work
before and after. Make sure they're not cutting corners...
jim beam
so, you're going to do analysis and get some numbers on which to base
your judgment?
> I was hoping
> people here had some but apparently not.
some people here /do/ have numbers. and experience. but you don't seem
to think that matters.
> I guess they just follow
> the manual blindly without judgement. Engineers are good but they
> aren't gods.
as opposed to a guy with no numbers and no experience? that's retarded.
bottom line dude - it's your car - you do what you want. but don't ask
advice if you don't want to hear it. and you have no business getting
offended if people have a negative reaction to you dismissing their
correct advice as of no consequence.
jim beam
while the dealer is the safest long term bet, i have to say, they're not
infallible. last time i paid someone to change my oil, it was san
francisco honda - they had a special offer and i was in a hurry. they
munged it pretty bad - they forgot to check the old oil filter seal
wasn't still stuck to the block, which of course it was. when the new
filter went on, that was /two/ seals in place, and naturally, one burst
as soon as oil pressure built. oil sprayed all over the engine
compartment, contaminated all my belts, got onto the radiator so it
clogged with dust, and got all over the exhaust ready to leave a smoke
trail for the next couple of miles. complete fiasco.
so, if you're not doing this stuff yourself, take the elmo approach -
find someone competent, experienced, and who knows their business. then
stick with them.
Guy
You seem to have a high opinion of yourself. I also have experience
tho I don't claim to know it all. Numbers are fine and I think the
manual is a great "guide" and in the absence of real life experiences
will use it but that's what I am seeking from others.... real life
experiences. Yes, I do listen to people just like I'm listening to
you.
Maybe you haven't been around a long time on the net (???) but I
recall reading elsewhere, some thought the manuals are over
conservative and some even accused the manuals of trying to get people
to bring their cars in for service more than needed to make money for
that mfgr. So not knowing the truth, I was seeking other's advice
besides reading the manual. And yes I will read/re-read the manual in
parts. Perhaps you misunderstand my intentions????
Tegger
> On 01/01/2010 12:38 PM, Joe wrote:
>>
>> It makes sense to be informed. Talk to the technician doing the work
>> before and after. Make sure they're not cutting corners...
>>
>
> while the dealer is the safest long term bet, i have to say, they're
> not infallible.
Ain't that the truth.
My own dealer got three years out of the original oil pan. Then they
managed to strip the plug. The monkeys were severely overtightening the
plug, probably by using a combo wrench and tightening it by hanging from
it, as monkeys do.
I'm still running with the replacement pan, sixteen years later. The plug
is not stripped.
jim beam
because i had the temerity to point the illogicality of your argument?
i think you're confused about what "high opinion" means.
> I also have experience
> tho I don't claim to know it all. Numbers are fine
but you intend to ignore them anyway!
> and I think the
> manual is a great "guide" and in the absence of real life experiences
> will use it but that's what I am seeking from others.... real life
> experiences.
right.
now, to test your logical reasoning abilities, if you baby a chevy but
it's still a piece of s., and you baby a honda which works perfectly,
what does that tell you about the efficacy of your treatment program?
how does that contrast with the effect of design, build quality and the
respective manufacturers?
> Yes, I do listen to people just like I'm listening to
> you.
yeah right!
>
> Maybe you haven't been around a long time on the net (???) but I
> recall reading elsewhere, some thought the manuals are over
> conservative and some even accused the manuals of trying to get people
> to bring their cars in for service more than needed to make money for
> that mfgr.
so, yet again, you want to ignore the contents of the owner manual.
> So not knowing the truth,
dude, that's your weakest argument yet. the "truth" in in the owners
manual. you just spent $25k on one - remember?
> I was seeking other's advice
> besides reading the manual.
why? you don't know for sure the qualifications of a single person
here. unlike the manufacturer of course.
> And yes I will read/re-read the manual in
> parts. Perhaps you misunderstand my intentions????
well, the written evidence of your intentions is that you're hell-bent
on ignoring what anyone tells you unless it agrees with what you think
you already know. furthermore, there is no evidence that you're
prepared to learn anything new. unless you don't mean what you wrote!
jim beam
i can't resist posting this - courtesy of "androcles" over on
sci.materials. i post it not for strict relevance, but the combination
of partial relevance and timing which i find to be irresistible.
***
"Do not reply to this generic message, it was automatically generated;
you have been kill-filed, either for being boringly stupid, repetitive,
unfunny, ineducable, repeatedly posting politics, religion or off-topic
subjects to a sci. newsgroup, attempting cheapskate free advertising
for profit, because you are a troll, because you responded to George
Hammond the complete fruit cake, simply insane or any combination
or permutation of the aforementioned reasons; any reply will go unread.
Boringly stupid is the most common cause of kill-filing, but because
this message is generic the other reasons have been included. You are
left to decide which is most applicable to you.
There is no appeal, I have despotic power over whom I will electronically
admit into my home and you do not qualify as a reasonable person I would
wish to converse with or even poke fun at. Some weirdoes are not kill-
filed, they amuse me and I retain them for their entertainment value
as I would any chicken with two heads, either one of which enables the
dumb bird to scratch dirt, step back, look down, step forward to the
same spot and repeat the process eternally.
This should not trouble you, many of those plonked find it a blessing
that they are not required to think and can persist in their bigotry
or crackpot theories without challenge.
You have the right to free speech, I have the right not to listen. The
kill-file will be cleared annually with spring cleaning or whenever I
purchase a new computer or hard drive.
Update: the last clearance was 25/12/09. Some individuals have been
restored to the list.
I'm fully aware that you may be so stupid as to reply, but the purpose
of this message is to encourage others to kill-file fuckwits like you.
I hope you find this explanation is satisfactory but even if you don't,
damnly my frank, I don't give a dear. Have a nice day and fuck off."
***
JRE
The faithfully torqued (with a torque wrench, to spec, every time,
without exception, since the car was new) drain plug in my '91 Accord
stripped about a year and a half ago. Pretty annoying...and very
unusual. But that's why they make self-tapping replacements, I suppose.
(Note: I recently got a new torque wrench and checked it against the old
one. They're within a foot-pound of each other.)
--
JRE
jim beam
[much to the delight of "crv guy" no doubt] i actually disregard factory
oil pan plug torque. 45N.m is very high for something with a soft
aluminum crush washer under it. i use ~30N.m and have never had a
thread strip, nor a plug loosen or leak. replicate at your own risk.
Guy
Jim, I give up on trying to explain further. I tried.
Honestly I smiled at some of your reply here. When you say some of
this stuff, please look in the mirror before you hit the enter key.
jim beam
how can that /possibly/ help you learn something you don't want to know?
Guy
Thanks Jim for your honesty <smile>. At least we can agree here.
Guy
<el...@nastydesigns.com> wrote:
>In article <Xns9CF3876075C...@69.16.185.247>,
> Larry in AZ <use...@DELETE.THISljvideo.com> wrote:
>
>> Waiving the right to remain silent, "Guy" <vo...@void.com> said:
>>
>> > I got a new 2010 CR-V and wife asked me how to break it in properly.
>> > What is the proper way?
>>
>> RTFM.
>
>And a fine manual it is.
A thick one too.
jim beam
so /you/ did the math too??? somehow, i find that hard to believe.
Guy
Wow, you admit the factory might be wrong but you can't.
I find that NOT hard to believe.
Tegger
dnQm3zq5jAKPWn...@speakeasy.net:
>>
>
> [much to the delight of "crv guy" no doubt] i actually disregard factory
> oil pan plug torque. 45N.m is very high for something with a soft
> aluminum crush washer under it. i use ~30N.m and have never had a
> thread strip, nor a plug loosen or leak. replicate at your own risk.
>
I've used the factory washer and torque setting of 33 ft/lbs (45 Nm) for
close to ten years now. The six years prior to that I mostly used a fiber
washer and 20 ft/lbs.
My suspicion is that oil pan thread stripping is due to /severe/
overtightening, not adherence to the factory setting.
I also suspect the factory beefed up the threads on pans made after 1991 by
using a slightly heavier gauge of steel for the thread insert.
jim beam
"you admit the factory might be wrong but you can't"???
on the basis that you're evidencing an english language "garbage out"
problem, there must also be english language "garbage in" problem with
you too. which explains everything!
jim beam
> jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote in news:Kf-
> dnQm3zq5jAKPWn...@speakeasy.net:
>
>
>>>
>>
>> [much to the delight of "crv guy" no doubt] i actually disregard factory
>> oil pan plug torque. 45N.m is very high for something with a soft
>> aluminum crush washer under it. i use ~30N.m and have never had a
>> thread strip, nor a plug loosen or leak. replicate at your own risk.
>>
>
>
>
> I've used the factory washer and torque setting of 33 ft/lbs (45 Nm) for
> close to ten years now. The six years prior to that I mostly used a fiber
> washer and 20 ft/lbs.
>
> My suspicion is that oil pan thread stripping is due to /severe/
> overtightening, not adherence to the factory setting.
in my opinion, 45 N.m is over-tightening. two reasons:
1. the oil pan is a relatively soft material - it has to be to be formed
out of a single piece of steel like that. torque near yield, plus
thermal cycling loads - too close for my comfort.
2. the annealed aluminum washer starts out pretty much as soft as the
fiber washer - it seals by deformation filling all the crevices, not by
compression as such.
bottom line - once it's deformed enough to seal, it doesn't need to be
deformed any more. torque similar to the fiber washer is sufficient.
>
> I also suspect the factory beefed up the threads on pans made after 1991 by
> using a slightly heavier gauge of steel for the thread insert.
i'm not sure most of them even have a thread insert. if they did, it
could indeed be a stronger material and higher torque, but that's not
the point - the point is that torque only needs to be sufficient to
cause washer deformation sufficient to seal - and to provide sufficient
friction to prevent loosening. anything over that is excess. honda
have specified a mechanical load torque on a non-mechanical load fastener.
Guy
Thanks for giving me the best word to describe what I think of your
opinion now... "garbage". People disagree but when some people carry
on the way you do, they have something wrong. Why not make yourself
happy and PLONK me so I don't have to see your "garbage" posts any
longer.
Brian Smith
>
> Thanks for giving me the best word to describe what I think of your
> opinion now... "garbage". People disagree but when some people carry
> on the way you do, they have something wrong. Why not make yourself
> happy and PLONK me so I don't have to see your "garbage" posts any
> longer.
You have to "plonk" him to avoid seeing his posts.
Guy
You're right. Still hope he PLONKS me first.
jim beam
i have a better solution: you stop flaunting your willful ignorance,
then see what kind a reaction you get. think about it. if you can.
jim beam
he's not that smart. especially since he couldn't figure it out from my
"killfile" post several messages back.
jim beam
why? because your retardation is /my/ fault?
pws
That is what I did, but I still see his postings when other people reply
to him.
It cuts the number down, however, as nobody can respond to all of his
postings. Most people have this thing called a life.
"Guy", you are correct, there is something wrong with a person like him
who spends this much time online with the primary purpose of abusing
people through his very high number of postings.
I am guessing that he does not talk to people like that face-to-face, as
he would have been taken out long ago, or he would have at least
received a beating of sufficient ferocity to change his attitude.
Get ready for a failed attempt at a witty and abusive response to this
from Jim Beam. I have no idea how many responses he sent into my
killfile to never be seen, but I have to admit, I hope that they were
numerous and even longer than this posting.
Pat
jim beam
> In article<GISdnc2cbrfHi6PW...@speakeasy.net>,
> jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>>> Have fun with your shiny new $25,000 toy.
>>
>> this is the piece of psychology that always completely blows my mind -
>> the bit where people can spend a bunch of dough, then completely
>> disregard what they put it into. if they had a suitcase with $25,000 in
>> hundreds, would they toss it out of a moving car with the lid open and
>> watch the notes get blown away in the wind? of course not.
>
> Some would, and then you'd see a blog entry on The Consumerist about how
> Samsonite bags suck and they wouldn't even take the owner's phone call
> about how Samsonite owes him $25,000 because his bag didn't prevent the
> bills from leaving the opened suitcase.
doubtless, others would respond agreeing. especially if someone had the
temerity to point out that our blogger was in fact at fault, because we
should all stand about and hug and endorse stupidity, not actually try
to learn something.
News
Try this on for size:
<http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=105876>
jim beam
yup, just like that.
my current amusement is people trying to sell cars on craigslist, cheap,
"no title". one guy i spoke with didn't have title because he'd gotten
a loan on the vehicle and had handed over title as security. so
legally, it wasn't his to sell, it was the loan company's!!!
i'm sure he found some dumbass willing to give him money. let's wait
and see what kind of victim bullshit /that/ will produce on consumerist.
Guy
wrote:
Thanks Pat. It's reassuring.
You know the sad thing is we're just talking about a car. Can you
imagine if we were talking about religion or politics ?
Guy
Wow. Do you feel better when you talk like this?
JRStern
>I got a new 2010 CR-V and wife asked me how to break it in properly.
>What is the proper way?
>
>I don't care what the manual says. What do you guys feel is the best
>mileage to do the first oil change? I normally change my oil and
>filter around 3500 miles on my other cars with no synthetic.
Follow the manual and the minder.
They say no restrictions on driving from day one, and you'll probably
go about a normal oil change distance, about 6k miles depending on
your driving habits, before the minder says hello.
That's what Honda wants to honor the warranty, seems good to me.
Engineering, materials, manufacturing are all really, really different
now than thirty years ago, I haven't heard anyone accusing the minder
of being too conservative about oil changes, maybe a little the other
way in fact, recommending changes a little sooner than really needed.
Plus, you might get paranoid when it says 15% left and change it then,
when you really can run it to zero, usually another 1,000 miles. Not
like the car grinds to a halt at that point!
J.
jim beam
"just a car", and not the $25,000 you just paid for it!
tell us guy - is there a financial threshold for stupidity? is it ok to
be willfully ignorant for stuff below $25,001, but not above it?
how about if someone else is willfully ignorant with your $25k for you?
what if someone put sugar in your gas tank? that could cost about the
same to fix as willful ignorance of the owners manual. or is there a
difference between someone else doing something dumb and you doing
something dumb?
jim beam
do you have /no/ logical thought capability???
Greg
> 1999 or not, that doesn't change the physics. think of it like this:
> solid ice can rough you up pretty badly. water offers almost no
> lubrication worth worrying about. but ice slurry, where the smaller
> particles are free to slide among themselves, can be a fantastic remover
> of friction.
I think you need to re-think this one.
A 'slurry' of metal particles is going to lubricate better than clean
oil?? LOL!
I don't think you understand how a hydrodynamic bearing works, nor do
you appreciate how vanishingly thin the oil film is under load.
Guy
wrote:
Thanks JR, I gotcha. That sounds reasonable. I do intend to read
the manual regardless but I really wanted to know how others drove
their newer cars especially for breakin. I imagine my CR-V tho not
an EX will seem like a EX compared to my Accord LX of 7 years ago so
I'll have to get used to the extra bells and whistles. Anyway,
thanks for the straight advice and without the accusations.
Guy
Gosh you are so intellectual and I bet it shows to the rest. Go ahead
and reply so I can have something to laugh at today and I'll do my
best to let you have the last word. That way you can have a higher
opinion of yourself.
jim beam
> jim beam wrote:
>
>
>> 1999 or not, that doesn't change the physics. think of it like this:
>> solid ice can rough you up pretty badly. water offers almost no
>> lubrication worth worrying about. but ice slurry, where the smaller
>> particles are free to slide among themselves, can be a fantastic
>> remover of friction.
>
> I think you need to re-think this one.
> A 'slurry' of metal particles is going to lubricate better than clean
> oil?? LOL!
the majority of particulate matter in oil is combustion product, not
metal. if /you/ have a slurry of metal particles in your oil, you have
a problem.
> I don't think you understand how a hydrodynamic bearing works, nor do
> you appreciate how vanishingly thin the oil film is under load.
you're contradicting yourself. hydrodynamic separation, by definition,
means there is sufficient thickness to keep the two solid surfaces
apart. if they're not separated, then it's not hydrodynamic.
jim beam
> On Sat, 02 Jan 2010 11:11:31 -0800, JRStern<JRS...@foobar.invalid>
> wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 31 Dec 2009 19:41:07 -0600, "Guy"<vo...@void.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I got a new 2010 CR-V and wife asked me how to break it in properly.
>>> What is the proper way?
>>>
>>> I don't care what the manual says. What do you guys feel is the best
>>> mileage to do the first oil change? I normally change my oil and
>>> filter around 3500 miles on my other cars with no synthetic.
>>
>> Follow the manual and the minder.
>>
>> They say no restrictions on driving from day one, and you'll probably
>> go about a normal oil change distance, about 6k miles depending on
>> your driving habits, before the minder says hello.
>>
>> That's what Honda wants to honor the warranty, seems good to me.
>>
>> Engineering, materials, manufacturing are all really, really different
>> now than thirty years ago, I haven't heard anyone accusing the minder
>> of being too conservative about oil changes, maybe a little the other
>> way in fact, recommending changes a little sooner than really needed.
>> Plus, you might get paranoid when it says 15% left and change it then,
>> when you really can run it to zero, usually another 1,000 miles. Not
>> like the car grinds to a halt at that point!
>>
>> J.
>>
>>
>
> Thanks JR, I gotcha. That sounds reasonable. I do intend to read
> the manual
you've been "intending" to read the manual for some time now guy.
contrasted with the time you've /actually/ spent here trying to justify
/not/ reading it of course. but we already know logic is not your strength.
jim beam
you - just - don't - get - it.
Guy
Maybe I can't read the manual because I stuck inside sick. But I
guess that doesn't compute in your disillusional mind. Go ahead and
impress everyone else with your wisdom now !
Brian Smith
>
> You're right. Still hope he PLONKS me first.
LOL!
Brian Smith
>
> That is what I did, but I still see his postings when other people reply
> to him.
> It cuts the number down, however, as nobody can respond to all of his
> postings. Most people have this thing called a life.
That's a small price to pay for peace and quiet and the enviable "No
Jim Zone". :^)
jim beam
so you're not here to learn anything - you're just here to "chat". i
should have realized.
> But I
> guess that doesn't compute in your disillusional mind. Go ahead and
> impress everyone else with your wisdom now !
idiot.
Guy
Impressive ...
jim beam
what would be impressive is you bothering to pay attention to this
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/killfile-faq/
but that wouldn't be boredom-relieving "chat" - would it.
Tegger
> On 01/02/2010 06:57 AM, Tegger wrote:
>> jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote in news:Kf-
>
> in my opinion, 45 N.m is over-tightening. two reasons:
>
> 1. the oil pan is a relatively soft material - it has to be to be
> formed out of a single piece of steel like that. torque near yield,
> plus thermal cycling loads - too close for my comfort.
The threads that form the drain plug hole are not made of the same piece of
steel as the pan. The drain hole threads are punched into a small rectangle
of much thicker metal that's spot-welded to the inside of the pan.
Check your oil pan (or find a loose engine in a wrecking yard and pull the
pan off that). On either side of the drain hole, you'll find two small spot
welds. These are the welds that hold the rectangle of metal in place.
When you look at that rectangle from the inside of the pan, you can plainly
see that it's made of much thicker steel than the pan itself. Honda (or its
supplier) punches the hole in the rectangle, threads it, the welds it to
the pan.
The threaded rectangle on my original pan and the one on the new pan
(installed 1994) were definitely of different thicknesses, with the new one
being thicker. I believe Honda has changed the pans since 1991, and that's
why we don't hear of stripped drain plugs nearly as often as we used to ten
years ago.
--
Tegger
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
Tegger
zJe1JPqLWnZ2...@speakeasy.net:
> On 01/02/2010 11:36 AM, Greg wrote:
>> jim beam wrote:
>>
>>
>>> 1999 or not, that doesn't change the physics. think of it like this:
>>> solid ice can rough you up pretty badly. water offers almost no
>>> lubrication worth worrying about. but ice slurry, where the smaller
>>> particles are free to slide among themselves, can be a fantastic
>>> remover of friction.
>>
>> I think you need to re-think this one.
>> A 'slurry' of metal particles is going to lubricate better than clean
>> oil?? LOL!
>
> the majority of particulate matter in oil is combustion product, not
> metal. if /you/ have a slurry of metal particles in your oil, you have
> a problem.
True, and much of that will be soot (about 1 micron in size).
>
>
>> I don't think you understand how a hydrodynamic bearing works, nor do
>> you appreciate how vanishingly thin the oil film is under load.
>
> you're contradicting yourself. hydrodynamic separation, by definition,
> means there is sufficient thickness to keep the two solid surfaces
> apart. if they're not separated, then it's not hydrodynamic.
>
The integrity of the thin part of the "oil wedge" is the key to lubricant
effectiveness in protecting those hydrodynamic bearings.
The thin part of the wedge is thin indeed, and contaminant particles must
be small enough that they are smaller than the wedge, otherwise abrasion
will occur.
Consider that crankshaft main-bearing-to-journal clearance is on the order
of 25-50 microns. The thickness of the thin part of the wedge will be less
than that. I've read that a common automotive oil filter efficiency is
about 30 microns, so you haven't got much there before wear occurs in the
presence of metallic particles.
Guy
Usually what I'm about to say uses the word "screws" but in your case
considering your last name and your posts in this thread, there is no
doubt to us normal people you are missing or have some loose bolts.
Guy
Actually you might be missing some nuts and bolts.... how appropriate
it fits the name and the type person at the same time.
jim beam
> jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote in news:Y5ednS-
> zJe1JPqLWnZ2...@speakeasy.net:
>
>> On 01/02/2010 11:36 AM, Greg wrote:
>>> jim beam wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>> 1999 or not, that doesn't change the physics. think of it like this:
>>>> solid ice can rough you up pretty badly. water offers almost no
>>>> lubrication worth worrying about. but ice slurry, where the smaller
>>>> particles are free to slide among themselves, can be a fantastic
>>>> remover of friction.
>>>
>>> I think you need to re-think this one.
>>> A 'slurry' of metal particles is going to lubricate better than clean
>>> oil?? LOL!
>>
>> the majority of particulate matter in oil is combustion product, not
>> metal. if /you/ have a slurry of metal particles in your oil, you have
>> a problem.
>
>
>
>
> True, and much of that will be soot (about 1 micron in size).
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>> I don't think you understand how a hydrodynamic bearing works, nor do
>>> you appreciate how vanishingly thin the oil film is under load.
>>
>> you're contradicting yourself. hydrodynamic separation, by definition,
>> means there is sufficient thickness to keep the two solid surfaces
>> apart. if they're not separated, then it's not hydrodynamic.
>>
>
>
>
> The integrity of the thin part of the "oil wedge" is the key to lubricant
> effectiveness in protecting those hydrodynamic bearings.
mostly, yes.
for illustration, poke about here:
http://www.tribology-abc.com/sub11.htm
>
> The thin part of the wedge is thin indeed, and contaminant particles must
> be small enough that they are smaller than the wedge, otherwise abrasion
> will occur.
>
> Consider that crankshaft main-bearing-to-journal clearance is on the order
> of 25-50 microns. The thickness of the thin part of the wedge will be less
> than that. I've read that a common automotive oil filter efficiency is
> about 30 microns, so you haven't got much there before wear occurs in the
> presence of metallic particles.
>
but metallics are a small proportion. and /some/ metallics can be
beneficial - the soft ones like brass and lead for instance.
regarding particle size:
http://mr2.com/TEXT/oil_filter_test.html
i need to refresh my memory on typical hydrodynamic separations for
journal bearings, but typical filtered oil particle size really isn't a
problem.
quickly googling, i find this! powder separated journal bearings?!!!
whoda thunk...
http://scitation.aip.org/getabs/servlet/GetabsServlet?prog=normal&id=JOTRE9000128000002000351000001&idtype=cvips&gifs=yes&ref=no
Grumpy AuContraire
> In article <dplsj5153smn7npsj...@4ax.com>,
> "Guy" <vo...@void.com> wrote:
>
>> Personally I've read Hondas can be abused and
>> still no problems.
>
> hehehehe--reminds me of my 79 Civic. The oil system had a nifty
> self-changing feature. When the oil light flickered during hard right
> turns, it was time to add more oil.
Heh heh... I can vouch for that after a valve cover seal failed on one
of my Civics. Doesn't take long to empty it out! Had to spring for a
$5+ (ouch!) bottle of oil to get home where I promptly replaced the
gasket...
JT
thomas
requirements in special circumstances 0- that may help.
Honestly you'd be better sticking to a dealer, standard servicing and the
oil Honda recommends
The CRV uses long life fluids (including coolant and PAS) so ensure that IF
you need to top anything up use the Honda stuff
If you care about the car then there's the usual advice - check fluids
regularly, don't thrash a cold engine and no VERY heavy braking for a few
thousand miles, give it a polish before winter and clean salt off the
"chassis"
"Grumpy AuContraire" <Grum...@GrumpyvilleNOT.com> wrote in message
news:ieCdnVqMq_J6it3W...@giganews.com...
Guy
Thanks Thomas. I'll follow all you say except maybe the last part
<g>. Where I live, we don't get snow but every 5 to 10 years but
where I used to live, almost every year so I know what you mean by
salt. I guess I'll buy some Honda products (fluids) to store around
the garage.
thomas
"Guy" <vo...@void.com> wrote in message
news:mi91k59uj6u5sua9k...@4ax.com...
> Thanks Thomas. I'll follow all you say except maybe the last part
> <g>. Where I live, we don't get snow but every 5 to 10 years but
> where I used to live, almost every year so I know what you mean by
> salt. I guess I'll buy some Honda products (fluids) to store around
> the garage.
keep their cars for years AND years as its the most economical w\y of
running a car and not worried about MPG and think "whole life costs" is
the only way to gauge "economy"?
I'll not mention the Toyota Pious but as Car Companies are most concerned
about PPM ( pence per mile - I'm guessing cents per mile in your case? :)
and looking good over 3/5 years rather than the whole life there is nothing
wrong in changing the oil a little more often or the ATF twice as often as
the companies advise - I know that BMW for instance talk about "sealed for
life" transmissions for instance BUT BMw specialists often talk about
changing the oil twice as often and the transmission fluid at least every
48k
sorry - this ad vise probable don't help do it? ;-)
thomas
Also Is there a new joke there somewhere - whats the difference between a
bmw driver and oatmeal?
people like oatmeal!
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <el...@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-F38DB1....@nothing.attdns.com...
> In article <7qdrjp...@mid.individual.net>,
> "thomas" <toooo...@retardedloony.com> wrote:
>
>> I know that BMW for instance talk about "sealed for
>> life" transmissions
>
> yeah--the life of the finance contract or the life of the warranty.
>
> BMW is able to make utterly disposable cars because their penishead
> buyers are dumber than oatmeal and trade them in for new leases every
> two years.
Grumpy AuContraire
> Oi, don't sit on the fence - tell us how it really is:)
>
> Also Is there a new joke there somewhere - whats the difference between
> a bmw driver and oatmeal?
> people like oatmeal!
Not me... I think that oatmeal is for, well, er, ahhh... hosses 'n the
like. Putrid stuff!
Of course, I'm not anyway supportive of BMWs either..
JT
jim beam
yeah, but what's the difference between bmw drivers and people that
don't like them? it's the bmw drivers that don't care!
JRStern
>Thanks JR, I gotcha. That sounds reasonable. I do intend to read
>the manual regardless but I really wanted to know how others drove
>their newer cars especially for breakin. I imagine my CR-V tho not
>an EX will seem like a EX compared to my Accord LX of 7 years ago so
>I'll have to get used to the extra bells and whistles. Anyway,
>thanks for the straight advice and without the accusations.
OK, I'll admit, I drive it a little easy for the first few hundred
miles, I'm only up to 1,500 now and still at least feel a little
guilty when I rev it above about 5,000 even briefly. I guess it takes
until the second oil change, when the car starts getting better
mileage as well, that I consider it fully broken in!
I do wish Honda would publish the algorithm they use for the minder,
how many points for a cold start, how many points for high revs, etc.
I remember doing oil changes every 3,000 miles on the ol' 1987, I also
remember about the 2004 model year when Honda said go 10,000 miles
between changes if you have easy driving. I thought I had easy
driving, and did go 10,000 miles between changes at least once. So
when I got the first model with the minder in 2007, I was a bit
surprised when it decided I should change around 6,000 miles. Such is
life. Maybe Honda decided they'd overshot a little on the 10,000
estimate.
J.
JRStern
wrote:
>The threaded rectangle on my original pan and the one on the new pan
>(installed 1994) were definitely of different thicknesses, with the new one
>being thicker. I believe Honda has changed the pans since 1991, and that's
>why we don't hear of stripped drain plugs nearly as often as we used to ten
>years ago.
IIRC, the story the dealer gave back when about stripped oil plugs was
corrosion. If that was ever correct, maybe they found a more
resistant grade of steel for it. I think my 1987 Accord had the pan
replaced once, maybe twice, in the twelve years I drove it.
Since I've been on a three-year lease cycle, I've had no further
experience with the issue.
J.
Tegger
news:4v15k55pk663amjm6...@4ax.com:
> On Sat, 2 Jan 2010 21:49:50 +0000 (UTC), Tegger <inv...@invalid.inv>
> wrote:
>
>>The threaded rectangle on my original pan and the one on the new pan
>>(installed 1994) were definitely of different thicknesses, with the
>>new one being thicker. I believe Honda has changed the pans since
>>1991, and that's why we don't hear of stripped drain plugs nearly as
>>often as we used to ten years ago.
>
> IIRC, the story the dealer gave back when about stripped oil plugs was
> corrosion. If that was ever correct,
I think that's total nonsense. The plug threads are bathed in oil. Even if
the oil were neglected to the point where water would build up and cause
corrosion, it most certainly would not happen in three years.
I have never in my life ever seen an oil drain plug with corroded threads,
even when what was in the pan was almost molasses.
That dealer was feeding you a line so he could cover up for his inept and
lazy monkeys.
jim beam
i wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't honda bowing to dealer
pressure/bleating to get people back in the shop more often. dealers
/want/ you in more often so they can make more money. contrast that
with bmw who offer free maintenance for the first few years - they want
to see you as little as possible, and their oil changes go 10-15k.
[interestingly, if you look up oil analysis examples online, mile for
mile honda steel count - which correlates to wear rate and materials
quality - is of the order of ten times /less/ than that of bmw. oil
breakdown stability aside, that would imply honda being able to have a
longer service interval than bmw, not shorter.]
JRStern
>i wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't honda bowing to dealer
>pressure/bleating to get people back in the shop more often. dealers
>/want/ you in more often so they can make more money. contrast that
>with bmw who offer free maintenance for the first few years - they want
>to see you as little as possible, and their oil changes go 10-15k.
Did not know that.
BMW goes that long, with conventional oil? And even the first?
Well, maybe they want you to wear things out!
>[interestingly, if you look up oil analysis examples online, mile for
>mile honda steel count - which correlates to wear rate and materials
>quality - is of the order of ten times /less/ than that of bmw. oil
>breakdown stability aside, that would imply honda being able to have a
>longer service interval than bmw, not shorter.]
Reminds me of an air pollution check on one of my old Hondas, required
here in California every two years. Actual pollution line was barely
off the zero, way way better than required. I guess that's why they
started the "ULEV" labels and such, but I still felt like I deserved a
medal, or a discount, or something, for driving such a clean car.
Honda good.
(of course, that doesn't really count towards the modern trendy
"carbon footprint" issue, but that's another story)
J.
jim beam
> On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 17:30:57 -0800, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> i wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't honda bowing to dealer
>> pressure/bleating to get people back in the shop more often. dealers
>> /want/ you in more often so they can make more money. contrast that
>> with bmw who offer free maintenance for the first few years - they want
>> to see you as little as possible, and their oil changes go 10-15k.
>
> Did not know that.
>
> BMW goes that long, with conventional oil?
apparently. i don't know what their oil is - but i know that when it's
time to change, that stuff is pretty sour. and there's a strong buildup
of resin under the rocker cover. i do occasional work on a friend's
330i and my 189k 20yr old civic is cleaner under the rocker after nearly
20k on a single change of mobil 1 than the 330i after a total lifetime
30k miles and bmw oil changes. whatever they use, it's either massively
over-stressed or it's not as good as what i use.
> And even the first?
>
> Well, maybe they want you to wear things out!
>
>
>> [interestingly, if you look up oil analysis examples online, mile for
>> mile honda steel count - which correlates to wear rate and materials
>> quality - is of the order of ten times /less/ than that of bmw. oil
>> breakdown stability aside, that would imply honda being able to have a
>> longer service interval than bmw, not shorter.]
>
> Reminds me of an air pollution check on one of my old Hondas, required
> here in California every two years. Actual pollution line was barely
> off the zero, way way better than required. I guess that's why they
> started the "ULEV" labels and such, but I still felt like I deserved a
> medal, or a discount, or something, for driving such a clean car.
>
> Honda good.
>
> (of course, that doesn't really count towards the modern trendy
> "carbon footprint" issue, but that's another story)
>
> J.
>
carbon footprint is pretty much just how much gas you burn. smaller,
more efficient clean burning engines in smaller more aero cars means
lower gas consumption. the average honda may not be as good as a prius,
but it's a whole lot better than the average frod, chevy, chrysler, etc.
JRE
> On 01/05/2010 04:05 PM, JRStern wrote:
>> On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 17:30:57 -0800, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>
>>> i wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't honda bowing to dealer
>>> pressure/bleating to get people back in the shop more often. dealers
>>> /want/ you in more often so they can make more money. contrast that
>>> with bmw who offer free maintenance for the first few years - they want
>>> to see you as little as possible, and their oil changes go 10-15k.
Like any other dealer, BMW dealers like to see you as often as possible
consistent with good customer satisfaction. The car business is what it
is no matter which manufacturer we're talking about. Every contact they
have with you gives them another opportunity to impress you with their
professionalism and good will, and possibly make a sale or a future
sale. The local BMW dealer has free car washes every Saturday, for
example, no matter how long you've owned the car you bought from them.
(My family owned a car dealership when I was growing up.)
>>
>> Did not know that.
>>
>> BMW goes that long, with conventional oil?
No. It's a Castrol synthetic in anything recent.
> apparently. i don't know what their oil is - but i know that when it's
> time to change, that stuff is pretty sour. and there's a strong buildup
> of resin under the rocker cover. i do occasional work on a friend's
> 330i and my 189k 20yr old civic is cleaner under the rocker after nearly
> 20k on a single change of mobil 1 than the 330i after a total lifetime
> 30k miles and bmw oil changes. whatever they use, it's either massively
> over-stressed or it's not as good as what i use.
The oil looks different both new and old than conventional oil.
However, at 30K miles, a 330i should have had 1-2 oil changes depending
on the service it's seen, and it should not have significant buildup
under the valve cover. Mine has no significant buildup at 88K, nor does
my wife's 323i at 107K.
>> And even the first?
<snip>
Yes. The first oil change on recent BMWs is likely to be at about 15K
miles. That's less than the interval you're using with Mobil 1 in your
Civic.
My Accord was my first "experiment" car, the one with which I started to
follow the manufacturer's service schedule rather than being more
aggressive and changing oil and filter every 3K. I did do the very
first oil change early just to get any crud left over from manufacturing
out, but since then I have changed it only when the service indicator
turns to red, which it does faithfully every 7,500 miles. Honda specs
regular 5W-30 oil, and that's what I use, along with the Honda filter.
Now, 19 years later at 218K, the car is falling (well, rusting) apart
around the drive train. The engine uses no noticeable oil between
changes, gas mileage remains good, and the engine seems as peppy now as
it was when new. Had I changed oil every 3K I'd have done 72 oil
changes by now rather than the 29 or so I've actually done, so at $25 or
so per change for oil and filter, I'm $1,075 to the good--in fact, the
money I have saved on unnecessary oil changes now exceeds the residual
value of the car (according to Kelly Blue Book's website)! And that's
changing the oil myself. Had I paid to have it done I'd have saved more
than double the car's current value.
In reasonably average service I see no concrete reason to be more
agressive than the manufacturer's recommendations with our Honda, BMWs,
garden tractor, etc.
--
JRE
jim beam
> jim beam wrote:
>> On 01/05/2010 04:05 PM, JRStern wrote:
>>> On Mon, 04 Jan 2010 17:30:57 -0800, jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> i wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't honda bowing to dealer
>>>> pressure/bleating to get people back in the shop more often. dealers
>>>> /want/ you in more often so they can make more money. contrast that
>>>> with bmw who offer free maintenance for the first few years - they want
>>>> to see you as little as possible, and their oil changes go 10-15k.
>
> Like any other dealer, BMW dealers like to see you as often as possible
> consistent with good customer satisfaction. The car business is what it
> is no matter which manufacturer we're talking about. Every contact they
> have with you gives them another opportunity to impress you with their
> professionalism and good will, and possibly make a sale or a future
> sale. The local BMW dealer has free car washes every Saturday, for
> example, no matter how long you've owned the car you bought from them.
>
> (My family owned a car dealership when I was growing up.)
you're right, repeat business comes from the ability to cultivate and
maintain a professional relationship. however, when service costs are
borne by the dealer, not the client, they my be happy to bring you in
for coffee and donuts, but they are /not/ going to bring you in for oil
changes every 3k miles because it's losing them money.
>
>>>
>>> Did not know that.
>>>
>>> BMW goes that long, with conventional oil?
>
> No. It's a Castrol synthetic in anything recent.
i've read that is specified, but i have a hard time believing the
dealer's actually using it in my friend's car - evidence to the contrary
in fact.
>
>> apparently. i don't know what their oil is - but i know that when it's
>> time to change, that stuff is pretty sour. and there's a strong
>> buildup of resin under the rocker cover. i do occasional work on a
>> friend's 330i and my 189k 20yr old civic is cleaner under the rocker
>> after nearly 20k on a single change of mobil 1 than the 330i after a
>> total lifetime 30k miles and bmw oil changes. whatever they use, it's
>> either massively over-stressed or it's not as good as what i use.
>
> The oil looks different both new and old than conventional oil. However,
> at 30K miles, a 330i should have had 1-2 oil changes depending on the
> service it's seen, and it should not have significant buildup under the
> valve cover. Mine has no significant buildup at 88K, nor does my wife's
> 323i at 107K.
frankly, because of what i'd read, i was surprised.
>
>>> And even the first?
> <snip>
>
> Yes. The first oil change on recent BMWs is likely to be at about 15K
> miles. That's less than the interval you're using with Mobil 1 in your
> Civic.
yes, but analysis shows the bmw to be wearing faster.
zzznot
news:hi1s8d$mls$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
> jim beam wrote:
> Like any other dealer, BMW dealers like to see you as often as possible
> consistent with good customer satisfaction.
Yes, but they weren't generating any customer
satisfaction due to astronomical service costs,
they were losing sales to everything else on the market
based on bad service experiences based on cost,
that's why they went to service-included pricing.
J.
jim beam
"service-included pricing" which costs them hardly anything because at
15k per service, they hardly ever touch the car! 4 years or 50k miles -
that's three [max $50] oil changes.
and once your "included" service period is up, brakes suddenly are
kaput, and cost a freakin' fortune. they need new $200+ disks each time
you change the pads - if you use bmw pads anyway. [use akebono ceramics
and magically, disk wear goes away. strange that.]
Dillon Pyron
>In article <26mqj5pe66brehseq...@4ax.com>,
> "Guy" <vo...@void.com> wrote:
>
>> >in that case, you should get rid of this vehicle and go buy a buick.
>> >buh-bye!
>> >
>>
>> I didn't mean the manual was wrong but wanted to know what
>> experience(s) work well with a new Honda. Maybe most don't follow the
>> manual???
>
>Or maybe most do.
>
>Your owner's manual says...what? about oil changes?
>
>Does it have a maintenance minder system?
When it says a maint is due, then it gets done. That means that at
least three of us do the manual.
I guess he doesn't thing the manuals are written for a reason. Perhaps
the part where it says "don't do this or you will be killed or
seriously injured" applies for him, either.
--
- dillon I am not invalid
I love my country, It's my government I fear.
Hey, turnabout's fair play.
Dillon Pyron
>In article <GISdnc2cbrfHi6PW...@speakeasy.net>,
> jim beam <m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>
>> > Have fun with your shiny new $25,000 toy.
>>
>> this is the piece of psychology that always completely blows my mind -
>> the bit where people can spend a bunch of dough, then completely
>> disregard what they put it into. if they had a suitcase with $25,000 in
>> hundreds, would they toss it out of a moving car with the lid open and
>> watch the notes get blown away in the wind? of course not.
>
>Some would, and then you'd see a blog entry on The Consumerist about how
>Samsonite bags suck and they wouldn't even take the owner's phone call
>about how Samsonite owes him $25,000 because his bag didn't prevent the
>bills from leaving the opened suitcase.
Off to alt.humor.best-of-usenet with you.
Dillon Pyron
>jim beam wrote:
>> On 01/01/2010 08:32 AM, Elmo P. Shagnasty wrote:
>>> In article<GISdnc2cbrfHi6PW...@speakeasy.net>,
>>> jim beam<m...@privacy.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>>> Have fun with your shiny new $25,000 toy.
>>>>
>>>> this is the piece of psychology that always completely blows my mind -
>>>> the bit where people can spend a bunch of dough, then completely
>>>> disregard what they put it into. if they had a suitcase with $25,000 in
>>>> hundreds, would they toss it out of a moving car with the lid open and
>>>> watch the notes get blown away in the wind? of course not.
>>>
>>> Some would, and then you'd see a blog entry on The Consumerist about how
>>> Samsonite bags suck and they wouldn't even take the owner's phone call
>>> about how Samsonite owes him $25,000 because his bag didn't prevent the
>>> bills from leaving the opened suitcase.
>>
>> doubtless, others would respond agreeing. especially if someone had the
>> temerity to point out that our blogger was in fact at fault, because we
>> should all stand about and hug and endorse stupidity, not actually try
>> to learn something.
>>
>>
>
>
>Try this on for size:
><http://forums.appleinsider.com/showthread.php?t=105876>
a) a bill of sale is practiclly worthless without some kind of
"authentication", ie the notary I used when I sold my Civic.
2) I think Apple would be covered by the same law as pawn shops and
auto dealers. If they accept something for which they have a
reasonable expectation that the presenter is the legal owner, they are
under no obligation to return it to the legitimate owner without
compensation. Bullshit law, yeah. In some states (such as Texas)
certain shops may be identified by police as "known" fences and this
doesn't apply. Trick is, you won't know unless you force the cops to
say so and the shop won't know unless you take them to court with the
above mentioned information. Which the cops don't want them to know
until the nail them big time, not for your iPhone 3G that only sold
for $99 back in July.
Dillon Pyron
<major snippage>
>>bottom line dude - it's your car - you do what you want. but don't ask
>>advice if you don't want to hear it. and you have no business getting
>>offended if people have a negative reaction to you dismissing their
>>correct advice as of no consequence.
>
>
>You seem to have a high opinion of yourself. I also have experience
>tho I don't claim to know it all. Numbers are fine and I think the
>manual is a great "guide" and in the absence of real life experiences
>will use it but that's what I am seeking from others.... real life
>experiences. Yes, I do listen to people just like I'm listening to
>you.
>
>Maybe you haven't been around a long time on the net (???) but I
>recall reading elsewhere, some thought the manuals are over
>conservative and some even accused the manuals of trying to get people
>to bring their cars in for service more than needed to make money for
>that mfgr. So not knowing the truth, I was seeking other's advice
>besides reading the manual. And yes I will read/re-read the manual in
>parts. Perhaps you misunderstand my intentions????
Errh, you're suggesting doing your oil at 3500 miles and the manual
says to do it when the MM says so, which for most folks is around
5-7K. So, who's being overly conservative and who's tossing away
money?
Let's see: "I don't care what the manual says." So, as the others
have said, you are doing research to support an already developed
solution.
Dillon Pyron
>In article <dplsj5153smn7npsj...@4ax.com>,
> "Guy" <vo...@void.com> wrote:
>
>> Personally I've read Hondas can be abused and
>> still no problems.
>
>hehehehe--reminds me of my 79 Civic. The oil system had a nifty
>self-changing feature. When the oil light flickered during hard right
>turns, it was time to add more oil.
Had friend with a 79 CRX (same as mine except for color) that didn't
self change, but it was capable of at least removing the oil very
quickly. I was amazed that Honda built the car with a 5 or so inch
drain plug right under the #3 piston. Oh, and that was also the
reminder that he needed to replace the rod and all the bearings.