Fluid change necessary?
Michael
fill brake and transmission fluid at 100 and 50 dollars. It was done
at 30K. Is this really necessary and that expensive>?
TIA.
Tegger
186b1c...@e15g2000yqo.googlegroups.com:
What Elmo said.
Brake and tranny-fluid changes are NEVER a bad idea.
Also, have you checked your Owner's Manual? That document tells you exactly
what ought to be done, and when.
--
Tegger
Elmo P. Shagnasty
Tegger <inv...@example.com> wrote:
> Brake and tranny-fluid changes are NEVER a bad idea.
wish I'd followed a trans fluid change schedule that was MUCH more
aggressive than what Honda documented for my 02 Odyssey. I'm now facing
a transmission replacement.
There is exactly zero reason a single owner Honda family van, driven
around town by a stay at home mom at the rate of around 8000 miles/year,
should have a complete transmission failure at 73,000 miles.
Honda, in their post-goodwill days, seems to think this isn't
unreasonable at all. But they'll go ahead and accommodate me to the
tune of 25% of the cost, leaving me with an out of pocket cost of $3400
plus tax. Nice, Honda. You stay classy. <snort>
You know, it's not that they did a bad job in designing and building the
transmission. People fail and/or make mistakes--that's part of life.
It's all in how they address their own major failure that counts. And
they've decided, unlike the old pre-downturn days, not to address it.
Tough luck, Mr. Customer.
I might accept this on a $400 repair. I cannot accept it on a $4500
driveline repair.
That is how reputations are lost. Honda spent many, many years building
up a great reputation--but they're now throwing it into the trash, one
customer at a time, probably at a rate of hundreds a month as these
transmissions fail.
When I bought the van, the choice was either Honda or Chrysler. Well,
that was a no brainer, right? Even though the Honda cost a bunch more,
it was still the superior value--at least, based on all the information
anyone had at the time.
But Honda had other plans. They sacrificed their legendary quality on
the altar of short term profits, knowing that the failures wouldn't show
up for years. This kind of planning is right up there with Ford
calculating the cost of Pinto lawsuits vs. the cost of fixing the Pinto.
Buying a Honda is now, to me and many others, not the automatic choice
anymore. They're just another manufacturer in a sea of manufacturers,
each trying its best to make an extra buck while passing the future
consequences of their cost cutting right onto the back of the consumer.
And frankly, I may have already chosen never to give American Honda
another dime of my business, just on general principle. We'll see.
This story isn't over yet. The fat lady has yet to sing. We'll see
what is the ultimate outcome. For over 25 years my family and I have
bought Hondas (and most recently an Acura, an MDX) from one single
dealership, and have had all the service done at that dealership, on the
factory schedule or more. Now is the time for this dealership to step
up to the plate and pursue this aggressively. They're a good
dealership, at least down in the weeds where it counts. We'll see how
upper management addresses my concerns.
Interesting postscript: as I discussed this with the dealership's
service manager, he told me that he had an 03 Honda truck where the
transmission failed exactly as mine did. He, too, asked Honda for help;
they denied him, completely. Did I mention this was the DEALERSHIP
SERVICE MANAGER?
MG
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <el...@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-2CC95D....@reserved-multicast-range-not-delegated.example.com...
My 02 Ody transmission also failed, at almost the same mileage. Fortunately
for me, it was both under the Certified warranty and the free replacement
period, so all I lost was a week of use. The new/reman tranny was better
than the original ever was, and shifted perfectly until 165,000 miles when
an idiot totaled it. Sorry you got caught out of pocket.
I had another expensive problem (A/C) in that car and wrote a nice, detailed
letter to Honda of America and they intervened. That might be the old days,
but you could try. You've owned more Hondas than I did when I wrote the
letter.
Dave Garrett
delegated.example.com>, el...@nastydesigns.com says...
[yet another Honda auto tranny shits the bed]
> This story isn't over yet. The fat lady has yet to sing. We'll see
> what is the ultimate outcome. For over 25 years my family and I have
> bought Hondas (and most recently an Acura, an MDX) from one single
> dealership, and have had all the service done at that dealership, on the
> factory schedule or more. Now is the time for this dealership to step
> up to the plate and pursue this aggressively. They're a good
> dealership, at least down in the weeds where it counts. We'll see how
> upper management addresses my concerns.
>
> Interesting postscript: as I discussed this with the dealership's
> service manager, he told me that he had an 03 Honda truck where the
> transmission failed exactly as mine did. He, too, asked Honda for help;
> they denied him, completely. Did I mention this was the DEALERSHIP
> SERVICE MANAGER?
In my experience, a firm but polite letter directly to American Honda's
customer service division from someone who's owned multiple Hondas
exclusively over a period of many years is likely to carry more weight
than a request for a goodwill repair from a dealer.
Email address in the header is valid, if you'd like a copy of the letter
I sent them in mid-2007 that got me a reman tranny for my 99 Accord for
the cost of the labor to install it.
Dave
Elmo P. Shagnasty
Dave Garrett <da...@compassnet.com> wrote:
> In my experience, a firm but polite letter directly to American Honda's
> customer service division from someone who's owned multiple Hondas
> exclusively over a period of many years is likely to carry more weight
> than a request for a goodwill repair from a dealer.
You just said pretty much what I just heard this afternoon from a friend
of mine who is now a service writer at an Acura dealer, and who was my
service writer at this dealership for many years.
Absent the dealership general manager getting as far as I want, that
will absolutely be the next step. Thanks.
Grumpy AuContraire
> In article <Xns9DD2C086...@208.90.168.18>,
> Tegger <inv...@example.com> wrote:
>
>> Brake and tranny-fluid changes are NEVER a bad idea.
>
> wish I'd followed a trans fluid change schedule that was MUCH more
> aggressive than what Honda documented for my 02 Odyssey. I'm now facing
> a transmission replacement.
>
> There is exactly zero reason a single owner Honda family van, driven
> around town by a stay at home mom at the rate of around 8000 miles/year,
> should have a complete transmission failure at 73,000 miles.
That's about the same as for 1990(s) era F*rd Exploders. To have this
happen on a Honda is just plain wrong.
Now you know another reason why I never buy the latest 'n greatest...
JT
Grumpy AuContraire
If worse comes to worse... You might consider a JDM replacement.
JT
Paul
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <el...@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-2CC95D....@reserved-multicast-range-not-delegated.example.com...
> Tegger <inv...@example.com> wrote:
>
>> Brake and tranny-fluid changes are NEVER a bad idea.
>
> wish I'd followed a trans fluid change schedule that was MUCH more
> aggressive than what Honda documented for my 02 Odyssey. I'm now facing
> a transmission replacement.
>
> There is exactly zero reason a single owner Honda family van, driven
> around town by a stay at home mom at the rate of around 8000 miles/year,
> should have a complete transmission failure at 73,000 miles.
>
> Honda, in their post-goodwill days, seems to think this isn't
> unreasonable at all. But they'll go ahead and accommodate me to the
> tune of 25% of the cost, leaving me with an out of pocket cost of $3400
> plus tax. Nice, Honda. You stay classy. <snort>
>
In May of last year, the transmission on my 2000 Accord (serviced within
Honda's requirements) quit at about 104K miles. It was just within the
mileage of the warranty extension, but well beyond the time limit. My local
dealership's first offer was $3,400 for a remanufactured transmission. I
didn't like the sound of that, and spent about two weeks going back and
forth with Honda customer service. It was a huge pain, but I eventually got
them down to about $1,900, and there's a three-year warranty on the "new"
unit. If you keep after them you might do a little better.
We also have a 2001 Odyssey, and I am concerned that its transmission will
fail too, even though it has less than 90K miles on it now.
Good luck.
--- news://freenews.netfront.net/ - complaints: ne...@netfront.net ---
MG
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <el...@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-C7D1E6....@reserved-multicast-range-not-delegated.example.com...
> In article <EGd9o.15534$st2....@newsfe09.iad>,
> "MG" <rebor...@mypacks.net> wrote:
>
>> My 02 Ody transmission also failed, at almost the same mileage.
>> Fortunately
>> for me, it was both under the Certified warranty and the free replacement
>> period, so all I lost was a week of use. The new/reman tranny was better
>> than the original ever was, and shifted perfectly until 165,000 miles
>> when
>> an idiot totaled it. Sorry you got caught out of pocket.
>
> Not yet I haven't. It's in the hands of the dealership general manager,
> who sympathizes with me to the point of pursuing it with Honda.
>
> If I'm out of pocket, I hope it's nowhere near $3400.
>
> But you've given me great hope for the replacement.
>
> Question: did your replacement also include a new control computer?
> That's American Honda's story of why it's such an expensive repair. I
> thought maybe they were just padding things to recoup that 25%.
>
> Tegger?
Honestly, it's been about 4 years and I don't remember. I know there was
talk about it but I'm not sure it was done. Since it was warranty, thus
free to me, and the car ran perfectly after that for another 90k or so, I
put it out of my mind.
MG
"Elmo P. Shagnasty" <el...@nastydesigns.com> wrote in message
news:elmop-A3E469....@reserved-multicast-range-not-delegated.example.com...
Here's what I sent. I realize now that I didn't even mention the fact that
the van was my 4th Honda.
American Honda Motor Co., Inc.
Honda Automobile Customer Service
Mail Stop 500-2N-7A
1919 Torrance Blvd.
Torrance, CA 90501-2746
Re: 2002 Odyssey
VIN: 2HKRL
Gentlemen:
My van was recently diagnosed as having a bad A/C compressor at Honda East
in Cincinnati, Ohio. Because they looked at it for several hours on 2
different occasions before giving me this opinion, I took the van to an
independent A/C shop to verify it. This shop said the problem was the
compressor clutch coil, and after replacing that, they suddenly decided that
the compressor was also bad. I have not had this repair done yet.
I am writing because I am a bit alarmed that a van with approximately 72000
miles could suffer such a major failure, particularly a Honda vehicle. I
bought the car at Grappone Honda. It was Honda certified, and I do not know
what may have happened during its first 31,000 miles. What I do know is
that I have owned 10 different vehicles over the years, driving most of them
well over 100,000 miles, and the only A/C compressor failure I ever suffered
occurred when new belts were installed and improperly tensioned. So while
it may just have been my good luck so far, I feel this failure is a bit
premature.
I am wondering whether Odysseys have a history of compressor failures, or
whether mine is just a fluke. I am still trying to decide what to do about
this repair. Obviously I will need the air conditioning system to be
working before summer. Are there any service bulletins on this that I
should have been aware of? Until I went for a second opinion, all the
service on this van has been performed by Honda dealers, and either early or
on schedule.
Please advise.
Tegger
xample.com:
>
> Interesting postscript: as I discussed this with the dealership's
> service manager, he told me that he had an 03 Honda truck where the
> transmission failed exactly as mine did. He, too, asked Honda for
> help; they denied him, completely. Did I mention this was the
> DEALERSHIP SERVICE MANAGER?
Honda is pretty generous with tranny repairs/replacements, with a
significant number of "goodwill" warranty-repairs being done at no cost to
the customer, provided the vehicle's VIN falls inside one of the TSBs or
recalls.
I don't know what went wrong in your case, or of that of the Service
Manager at the dealership in question, but I can tell you that, in my
experience, those are unusual cases.
--
Tegger
Grumpy AuContraire
> In article <y76dnXDnZYuHn_vR...@giganews.com>,
> Grumpy AuContraire <Grum...@GrumpyvilleNOT.com> wrote:
>
>>> Absent the dealership general manager getting as far as I want, that
>>> will absolutely be the next step. Thanks.
>>
>> If worse comes to worse... You might consider a JDM replacement.
>
>
> Link?
>
> Inquiring minds and all that...
Elmo P. Shagnasty
Tegger <inv...@example.com> wrote:
> Honda is pretty generous with tranny repairs/replacements, with a
> significant number of "goodwill" warranty-repairs being done at no cost to
> the customer, provided the vehicle's VIN falls inside one of the TSBs or
> recalls.
>
> I don't know what went wrong in your case, or of that of the Service
> Manager at the dealership in question, but I can tell you that, in my
> experience, those are unusual cases.
The problem is, the only trannies that Honda officially recognized as
problematic are the 4 speed units.
Mine is the first of the five speed units, starting with the 02 Odyssey
and moving on to the 03 Accord. 2002 and 2003 trannies are widely KNOWN
to be problems--Honda addressed the problems and redesigned the unit in
mid 2004 model year--but there's no official recognition via recall or
TSB.
And therein lies the problem.
Added to that is the sour economy, which has caused Honda to pull back
BIG time on their goodwill program. While they used to be very
generous--some would say OVERLY generous--they've pulled way back, and
some in the know say they've gone overboard the other direction now.
For example, a few years ago at 32K miles (but 42 months) I needed a new
idle control valve in the intake. $300 repair. I'm in the dealership,
it's 7pm, and I'm thinking this isn't right. I asked the service writer
to phone the service manager (same guy I'm dealing with today); he's at
home, watching TV. In a matter of a few moments he OKs the repair under
goodwill, based on the fact that it's under warranty miles, knowing that
he can easily justify it to the Honda zone rep. I get a free repair.
Is that an example of an overly generous program? Maybe.
Fast forward to today, and Honda sticks its head in the sand on these
self-destructing five speed trannies from 02 and 03, units they know
from experience are ALL going to self-destruct at an early age. Is that
an example of going overboard the other direction? Absolutely.
Sure, pull back on the idle air control valves of the world. Make the
customers jump through some hoops for stuff like that. But these
transmissions? Honda, just admit that you screwed up and fix it.
It's not that they screwed up; that happens. People make mistakes.
What counts is how you recover from that. Sticking your head in the
sand and making the customer pay for your screwups is the
GM/Ford/Chrysler mentality from the 70s and 80s, behavior that put their
reputation in the toilet.
Is that where Honda wants to go tomorrow? Because they're doing it, one
grenading transmission at a time.
Tegger
xample.com:
> In article <Xns9DD5B392...@208.90.168.18>,
> Tegger <inv...@example.com> wrote:
>
>> Honda is pretty generous with tranny repairs/replacements, with a
>> significant number of "goodwill" warranty-repairs being done at no
>> cost to the customer, provided the vehicle's VIN falls inside one of
>> the TSBs or recalls.
>>
>> I don't know what went wrong in your case, or of that of the Service
>> Manager at the dealership in question, but I can tell you that, in my
>> experience, those are unusual cases.
>
> The problem is, the only trannies that Honda officially recognized as
> problematic are the 4 speed units.
>
> Mine is the first of the five speed units, starting with the 02
> Odyssey and moving on to the 03 Accord. 2002 and 2003 trannies are
> widely KNOWN to be problems--Honda addressed the problems and
> redesigned the unit in mid 2004 model year--but there's no official
> recognition via recall or TSB.
Have you spent the $10 to check for yourself with Techinfo?
--
Tegger
Elmo P. Shagnasty
Tegger <inv...@example.com> wrote:
> > Mine is the first of the five speed units, starting with the 02
> > Odyssey and moving on to the 03 Accord. 2002 and 2003 trannies are
> > widely KNOWN to be problems--Honda addressed the problems and
> > redesigned the unit in mid 2004 model year--but there's no official
> > recognition via recall or TSB.
>
>
>
> Have you spent the $10 to check for yourself with Techinfo?
>
> https://techinfo.honda.com
OK, now this is hilarious. From the Feb. 2006 Service News publication:
Flush Systems: A Big Taboo
In Honda vehicles, the transmission, as well as the systems that handle
lubrication, cooling, fuel, and power steering, are designed to give
thousands of miles of trouble-free service if you follow the maintenance
schedule to the letter.
You can bet your ass that if I don't get resolution from the dealership,
my letter to American Honda will include that very passage from their
own Service News publication along with a request that they check the
dealership records--at which point they will find that I followed
American Honda's maintenance schedule to the letter.
The problem is, I should have cut down to a third the trans fluid change
interval. I would have, if Honda actually recommended it to me.
Anyway, no TSBs, just a lot of Service News articles. Or am I missing
something here? I looked at all service info items with keyword
"transmission"; I got 69 hits, 18 of which were relevant--and all of
which were either Service News pubs or else the supporting worksheets
that the tech has to fill out for core return.
Anyway, as always, you're right. Ten bucks well spent. I have more
info than I would have otherwise, even if it is merely details of the
broad issues I'm already aware of. I will talk to the dealership and to
American Honda in their own language now.
jim beam
> In article<Xns9DD2C086...@208.90.168.18>,
> Tegger<inv...@example.com> wrote:
>
>> Brake and tranny-fluid changes are NEVER a bad idea.
>
> wish I'd followed a trans fluid change schedule that was MUCH more
> aggressive than what Honda documented for my 02 Odyssey. I'm now facing
> a transmission replacement.
wouldn't have made much difference - there is a fundamental problem with
those transmissions.
>
> There is exactly zero reason a single owner Honda family van, driven
> around town by a stay at home mom at the rate of around 8000 miles/year,
> should have a complete transmission failure at 73,000 miles.
>
> Honda, in their post-goodwill days, seems to think this isn't
> unreasonable at all. But they'll go ahead and accommodate me to the
> tune of 25% of the cost, leaving me with an out of pocket cost of $3400
> plus tax. Nice, Honda. You stay classy.<snort>
>
> You know, it's not that they did a bad job in designing and building the
> transmission.
that's way too charitable - they screwed up royally. there's no excuse
for not testing properly. it's real simple - you put the thing in a
test vehicle, then give it to some college kids to kick the stinky stuff
out of. 100,000 miles is less than 9 months - a very small portion of
development lead time. vegas, san fran, denver, l.a. pretty standard
test circuit. or, as is accommodated by one of our local cab companies,
give the thing to a taxi fleet to drive.
either that, or the bean counters made a much more sinister decision and
tried to pursue life limitation, the technology domestics created, and
the europeans perfected. but if that was the goal, they screwed that up
too.
--
nomina rutrum rutrum
Tegger
>
> Anyway, as always, you're right. Ten bucks well spent. I have more
> info than I would have otherwise, even if it is merely details of the
> broad issues I'm already aware of. I will talk to the dealership and to
> American Honda in their own language now.
I think you're missing something. TSBs ought to be "right there", and easy
to find.
Honda's Techinfo site is a bit clunky compared to Toyota's, but everything
is there. You can phone Technical Support (no additional charge) at the
number given on the Techinfo site. The techs there will be very glad to
help you find what you need.
You would be very wise to do some real checking of your own. Honda's
weakest link is their dealerships, which seem to be usually populated by
workers with a less-than-impressive degree of diligence and doggedness.
Try again.
--
Tegger
Tony Harding
> In article
> It's a time thing, not a miles thing.
>
> The transmission fluid should be changed periodically, too. But ask him
> what he means by "flushing" the transmission. Come back and tell us.
I do my brakes every 2 years. Don't know what Honda recommends, just
left over habit from the 70's. This isn't engine oil, so don't think
extended intervals are a good idea.
Airport Shuttle
You should change the fluid for your saftey. If you have the skills you
can purchase a brake fluid do it yourself kit at the local parts store
for cheap.
--
Airport Shuttle
'' (http://www.yourcityride.com)
Message origin: TRAVEL.com
Tony Harding
> You should change the fluid for your saftey.
Agreed
> If you have the skills you
> can purchase a brake fluid do it yourself kit at the local parts store
> for cheap.
And it's much easier to do solo these days than it was in the 70's! <g>
You can buy a vacuum device for bleeding brakes in the $40-50 range
(don't know your budget, but remember this a multi-use tool, not a
consumable like brake fluid). Simply you:
1. set up a caliper,
2. pump to build up vacuum in the bleeder,
3. crack the bleed screw and let the vacuum draw fresh brake fluid thru
that circuit,
4. repeat if the brake fluid isn't clean (new), or if you feel like it,
5. move to the next caliper
I got a Mity-Vac bleeder. IIRC, the correct bleed sequence on my 2003
Accord was LF/RF/RR/LR, but it's easy to look up. Be sure to suck out
(with a tool) the old brake fluid in the master cylinder before you
start and fill with fresh brake fluid, check between each caliper to
ensure you keep the master cylinder level up (otherwise you can draw in
air and start over).
I recommend doing a dry run first to determine the correct fittings,
hoses, etc., from the bleeder kit, that'll save you a lot of time. Write
down what you do so you'll know in 2 years for the next time! :)
NOTE: Spilled brake fluid destroys paint - catch the old stuff & toss it
where kids aren't likely to find it. It's highly toxic to humans!