98 Accord won't start
mik...@hotmail.com
Hoping for some help from the car gurus out there. I have a 98 Honda
Accord V6 EX with ~138,000 miles on it (lots of highway miles during
commutes for six years). My work situation changed recently and for the
last six months my car has sat in the driveway frequently idle for a
few days at a time and then when used usually only for short trips.
Suddenly today, out of the blue, the car won't start. The car had sat
idle for about 1 week.
Symptom:
Turn key, starter continuously runs (rei-rei-rei-rei-rei-rei-rei) but
the engine doesn't turn over. Lights all bright and don't seem to dim
when the starter is running. I waited a few hours and tried again to
same effect.
I just had the alternator, battery, ignition coil all replaces 1.5
years ago for a different problem so I doubt any of those have failed
(the dealer told me they changed the ignition switch too as a recall
item but it never showed on any documentation).
I've never had any problem starting the car before, no hard starts even
in cold weather.
So what might be the problem? I'm not an expert by any stretch of the
imagination but could it be the starter motor? I don't think it's the
battery ot any of the electical system. I'd like to have some idea
whats wrong before I have it towed to be looked at.
All help is greatly appreciated!
-MikeK
remco
<mik...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127183559....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> Symptom:
> Turn key, starter continuously runs (rei-rei-rei-rei-rei-rei-rei) but
> the engine doesn't turn over. Lights all bright and don't seem to dim
> when the starter is running. I waited a few hours and tried again to
> same effect.
>
> I just had the alternator, battery, ignition coil all replaces 1.5
> years ago for a different problem so I doubt any of those have failed
> (the dealer told me they changed the ignition switch too as a recall
> item but it never showed on any documentation).
>
It is hard to imagine how the "rei-rei-rei" sounds without knowing how many
'rei's per second are heard :)
Seriously, is it a lot faster than normal? The lights not dimming sort of
indicates that the starter is not drawing the same amount of current as it
would under normal circumstances. This could be because it is not engaging
the flywheel.
Are your belts spinning along with you trying to start?
If the belts are not spinning and it is a lot faster than normal, there's a
good change your starter is bad. (actually, the relay on top of the
starter).
Remco
Curly Q. Links
I think you mean to say it's turning over (the engine), but not firing.
Read the part in your owner's manual about 'flooded engine'(how to start
your engine). You've probably got a leaking injector, which bleeds the
pressurized fuel out of the fuel rail overnight, flooding the engine.
Hold the pedal to the floor (per the manual) and it will start. It's got
a ton of gas, now it just needs you to hold the throttle open so it can
get some air. Techron injector cleaner will often fix it (the dribbling
injector). Our odyssey did it, and I ran two tanks of Gasohol through it
and it never happened again.
'Curly'
mik...@hotmail.com
I tried starting this morning and it still wouldn't fire. I did the
flooded engine thing (throttle halfway) and bang started up. It sounds
like you were right. I'll throw some injector cleaner in there and
hopefully that will clear it up. Thanks again for your help!
-MikeK
Jason
<mots...@interbaun.com> wrote:
Curly,
Great post. I was going to suggest changing or repairing the main relay
but your advice made much more sense in this case. Keep up the great work.
Jason
--
NEWSGROUP SUBSCRIBERS MOTTO
We respect those subscribers that ask for advice or provide advice.
We do NOT respect the subscribers that enjoy criticizing people.
Curly Q. Links
I'm quick to share that answer because I got a WRONG ANSWER a couple
years ago when my Odyssey wouldn't start one Monday morning, and ended
up replacing the Timing Belt (it was due anyway). After the belt was
changed it still wouldn't start. When I finally looked in the OWNER'S
MANUAL, I found the answer. Now I keep the owner's manual in the house,
sometimes even in the BATHROOM, so at least _somebody_ will read it. :-)
'Curly'
remco
<mik...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:1127217755.2...@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> Thanks for the quick replies guys!
>
> The "rei-rei-rei"'s don't sound any faster than usual to me, I'll check
> the belts to see if they're turning.
>
> I'll also give the flooded engine trick a try, here's fingers crossed.
>
> I just read something about the EFI relay, any chance it's that?
> (although no check engine light)
>
> -MikeK
>
Doubt it is is the main relay. Don't bother checking the belts:
Since it fired up, run some cleaner through it as Curly suggested - I bet
he's right and it will clear up in your case.
Remco
Elle
> years ago when my Odyssey wouldn't start one Monday morning, and ended
> up replacing the Timing Belt (it was due anyway). After the belt was
> changed it still wouldn't start. When I finally looked in the OWNER'S
> MANUAL, I found the answer. Now I keep the owner's manual in the house,
> sometimes even in the BATHROOM, so at least _somebody_ will read it. :-)
This is one of the most humorous yet intelligent posts I've seen on a
newsgroup in a week. :-)
mik...@hotmail.com
the tank and added the fuel injector cleaner. Everything seemed fine
for a few days ( a few hard starts but then it would fire up and run ).
Now the car is a brick, no amount of playing with the throttle will get
the engine to fire. I read up on the "main relay" PGM-EFI that seems to
cause multiple headaches for other honda owners. Listening for the
"clicks" in the relay I noticed that there was only one click (turning
the key to the on position) and that even on close listeneing the fuel
pump didn't seem to be running for the two seconds (and no followup
"click" for the fuelpump shutoff). I thought for sure that was the
problem. After much effort I was able to remove the relay, pop the case
off, reflow the solder and reconnect it. All three clicks are now
present and I hear the fuel pump run on switching thekey to the on
position. I though for sure that would fix the problem, but alas no.
All the start attempt drained the battery so I thought maybe if I jump
started it I could get it to run, but that didn't work either.
The engine cranks but will not fire. Now I smell a lot more gas when
trying to start it. Any other ideas before I have it towed to a
mechaninc?
Elle
Have you checked for spark at the plugs?
If you don't know how, ask or google. It's not hard.
<mik...@hotmail.com> wrote
SoCalMike
> The engine cranks but will not fire. Now I smell a lot more gas when
> trying to start it. Any other ideas before I have it towed to a
> mechaninc?
likely flooded.
and the weak battery isnt helping the PGM-FI work properly.
TeGGeR®
news:1129245461....@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
> The engine cranks but will not fire.
So you get a "chugga-chugga-chugga" at the speed you normally expect to
hear?
> Now I smell a lot more gas when
> trying to start it.
Aha! The plugs are unable to fire the mixture, or are not firing at all.
Have you checked for spark? An engine only needs *three things* to fire.
A tip: HOLD the gas pedal TO THE FLOOR. Crank engine and KEEP CRANKING for
at least a minute. What happens?
Please report updates here. There are more possible causes of your
symptoms.
--
TeGGeR®
The Unofficial Honda/Acura FAQ
www.tegger.com/hondafaq/
mik...@hotmail.com
let it sit 20+ minutes and tried again with no success. I've also tried
the different throttle positions (gas pedal halfway / fully depressed)
with no success mutliple times. The PGM-FI relay seemed like it wasn't
working properly and then, once I reflowed the solder on the terminals
on the little PCB the clicks+fuel pump for two seconds came back, I
doubt that would happen with just a weak battery. But it seems like
either that wasn't the issue, or it was part of some kind of cascade
failure.
One other thing I forgot to mention, I have an OBDII scanner and the
computer has no error/scan codes.
mik...@hotmail.com
A few times, early in the cranking, the car would sputter a bit as if
it was trying to fire, but only right at the start of the cranking, and
usually only when I first tried after letting it sit for a while.
I've been getting the cranking at the normal speed every time I tried,
until recently. I think all the start attempts finally are wearing the
battery down and the cranking was starting to slow. I tried, earlier
today, to start with a jump from my girlfriends car. The speed of the
cranking came back up to normal during the jump but the engine still
won't fire. (I tried holding the gas pedal down during the jump attemp
too, no dice). I though about maybe getting an AC wall plug car battery
charger so that I don't loose my battery during all this "sitting idle"
and starting attempts, thoughts on that?
I've tried holding the gas pedal to the floor before (as directed by
Curly and the starting the engine section in the owners manual) but I
haven't tried cranking for as long as you suggest. The owners manual
suggests only cranking for fifteen seconds with ten second intervals...
should I really try a full minute?
Like I posted above, I also have an OBDII scanner and the car computer
doesn't have any error codes (or pending codes).
I followed the "fix your PGM-FI" section on your FAQ yesterday, nice
site BTW. I'm almost positive the relay wasn't clicking any more than
once (key to starter on position) and no fuel pump sounds. After
following the procedure there (reflowing the solder joints) all three
clicks are clear and the fuel pump kicks on for the two seconds but it
didn't fix the problem.
I'll check spark tomorrow, although I don't have a garage and it's been
raining continously here for four days.
Another thing I tried at the very end (after "fixing" the main relay)
was turning the key from off to on a few times (letting the fuel pump
run a couple times). I thought maybe that after sitting for a while the
"fuel rail" needed to be re-pressurized. (I'm grasping at straws)
I'm not a car person but I'm learning fast.
Thanks!
Mike
mmdi...@yahoo.com
Me too I'm learning too.
I had problem of cranking but refused to turn over. I did wait while
for the fuel
pump to turn on. That got to work that I thought that was the my
problem.
Now I doubt that is the problem. Now i realize the problem alarm. The
alarm
was not turned on when I turned the key so there was nothing going to
starter...
I found the way to turn on the alarm in order to start right way so
that I do not
have to wait...I hope this is only starting problem I've...I did suffer
with starting
problem :)))
mik...@hotmail.com
definitely discharged now... The speed of the cranking starts out
slightly slower than normal and then gets progressively slower and
slower... chug..chug..chug....chug.....chug......chug............chug I
couldn't hold it for the full minute.
I'm having a hard time checking for spark since I don't have an
assistant today to crank the engine for me while I look. I can try
jumping the car again but I don't want to wreak havoc on my girlfriends
car (especially since she's trying to sell it now).
I might just bite the bulelt and buy an automatic battery charger from
the auto store. It looks like they're about $30 and probably not a
terrible thing to have hanging around.
Another thing I just remembered to note
The battery, alternator, ignition coil, and ignition switch were all
replaced about 1.5 years ago due to an unrelated problem.
High Tech Misfit
I don't remember if this was brought up before, but have the spark plugs
ever been changed at all.
mik...@hotmail.com
miles or so, so I assume they replaced the plugs at some point. I could
be wrong though, I'd have to go back and check my maintenance records.
Elle
> I did regular dealership maintenance on the car for the first 100K
> miles or so, so I assume they replaced the plugs at some point. I could
> be wrong though, I'd have to go back and check my maintenance records.
Check also for whether the distributor cap and rotor, spark plug WIRES, and
distributor's ignitor were replaced recently.
Were the alternator and distributor coil put in 1.5 years ago both OEM?
I had a distributor coil installed by Firestone in 2001. Failed a couple of
months later. They ruled it "defective" and replaced it under warranty.
You might be able to rig up a plug wire so that you can just barely see it
when you're sitting in the driver's seat, so you can check for spark by
yourself.
Dunno what a battery charger costs, but if it's under $20, I think it might
be worthwhile to have and may save you having to go to a shop for this
particular no-start problem.
mik...@hotmail.com
Elle wrote:
> Check also for whether the distributor cap and rotor, spark plug WIRES, and
> distributor's ignitor were replaced recently.
I'll check my records for those too.
> Were the alternator and distributor coil put in 1.5 years ago both OEM?
Yep, done at the dealer, OEM parts.
> You might be able to rig up a plug wire so that you can just barely see it
> when you're sitting in the driver's seat, so you can check for spark by
> yourself.
I thought about this, but with my battery so low, I think I need to fix
that problem first.
> Dunno what a battery charger costs, but if it's under $20, I think it might
> be worthwhile to have and may save you having to go to a shop for this
> particular no-start problem.
Looks like it's about $30 at autozone. I haven't decided if I'm going
to buy one or not yet. I guess they take 2-12 hours to recharge a low
battery since they trickle charge them (I guess they're designed mainly
for RV's and other limited use vehicles that sit idle for extend
periods of time). I'm trying to think if I'll ever need this thing in
the future.
Thanks,
-Mike
Elle
Probably not. I used a motorcycle battery charger once to raise my ailing
car battery's energy to just enough to get me to the battery store. But now
I keep such close tabs on the battery's condition that I don't think I'll
ever need this again.
I would instead consider the following for $30 at Target:
http://www.target.com/gp/detail.html/ref=br_1_4/601-5074621-7273754?%5Fencod
ing=UTF8&frombrowse=1&asin=B0002INUMK
It's a 12-volt portable jump starter. It's much easier than asking one's
girl/boyfriend to come over with their car to give you a jump.
I used one of these before, on loan from someone. Works great.
I would think Pep Boys and Autozone have these, too.
mik...@hotmail.com
advice. Probably more useful than having a charger sitting around.
I checked my records (I seem to be missing some, ah well), plugs
replaced at at least 85K miles (45K miles ago). I had the distributor
cap and rotor replaced as part of a routine maintenance at 113K miles
(17K miles ago).
I'll take that trip to target.
There's no mention on the work order about plug wires.
VelociRacer
from the box under the hood. See if the plugs are wet with fuel. Crank
(with pedal to the floor) and watch for spark and/or fuel mist shooting
out of the spark hole indicating still flooded. Cranking like this to
spit out the fuel soup might help.
Also, have you checked your air filter and intake tube for possible
blocking/critters? What happens if you crank it with air box open or
better yet, air tube disconnected at throttle body? Just temprarily.
Elle
one should be under 15k ohms.
A new OEM set will run you about $50 + maybe $10 for shipping from
www.slhonda.com .
Seven years is a good long life for a set of ignition wires, so yours may
very well be due, and this is not money thrown away. (OTOH I am seeing posts
here about ignition wires lasting much longer than those made a decade
ago... )
On the third hand, some fellow with a 1994 Honda was posting here recently
and scratching his head over a sputtering, jerky acceleration ride. He
ultimately slapped in new wires and that fixed it.
I know you have a no-start, but maybe the battery is just too weak right
now(like you were implying) to come to anymore conclusions.
<mik...@hotmail.com> wrote
mik...@hotmail.com
400Amp, they were out of the smaller one). Hooking it up, the cranking
is back to normal speed but still no fire. I had one quick sputter
while testing and that's it. I held down the throttle for a minute, as
suggested by Tegger, but it still wouldn't fire. It's raining pretty
bad now and I don't know if I want to be setting up plug wires to check
for spark in the rain. :) Hopefully it will clear up later. I
definitely smell gas though while trying to start it.
Somthing odd I noticed,
I noticed that with the key in the on position, some kind of "servo
sound" was running intermittely in the dash (like behind the vents and
what-not), the heating/cooling system is off so I thought that was
strange. I took the fuse for the AC system out and the servo sound
stopped. I doubt it's related, but trying to start with the fuse out
didn't work either.
TeGGeR®
news:1129317036.8...@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> So I got the jump starter from target (had to get the next model up,
> 400Amp, they were out of the smaller one). Hooking it up, the cranking
> is back to normal speed but still no fire. I had one quick sputter
> while testing and that's it. I held down the throttle for a minute, as
> suggested by Tegger, but it still wouldn't fire. It's raining pretty
> bad now and I don't know if I want to be setting up plug wires to check
> for spark in the rain. :) Hopefully it will clear up later. I
> definitely smell gas though while trying to start it.
How old are your plug wires?
Sounds an awful lot like (now that I know you've got heavy rain) the HT
current is leaking off to ground before the plugs.
Go get a can of WD-40. Wipe off the plug wires and distributor cap with a
dry cloth or paper towel, then spray the WD-40 liberally over the wires and
the cap.
Does it start now? Try with your foot off the pedal first, then with the
pedal to the floor if it won't fire up.
mik...@hotmail.com
and bang it fired right up, no playing with the throttle or anything. I
was going to test for spark, now that our new england monsoon has ended
(7 days of straight rain) but since it fired up, obviously it's getting
spark.
Now however I have a new problem. I was going to let it run for a while
to charge the battery but the idle suddenly went "wacky". The car
sounds like it's reving the engine, idling between 1k and 2k RPM again
and again in a pulsing fashion (reeer... reeer.... reeer...). The
exhaust looks a little smoky (white smoke) but not too bad. What could
be causing this strange idling behavior? Did I bork the main relay
somehow by reflowing the solder? Is there any way it could cause this
kind of behavior. My understanding is that once the relays click open
(and the car starts) it's out of the picture.
I tried starting the car a few times and it fired right up each time,
but still idled in the same pulsing fashion. I held the throttle open
for a while and it seemed like it responded ok, but as soon as I let go
the car resumed it's pulsing idle.
I checked the computer, still no error codes or pending codes.
Again all help is really appreciated!
-Mike
Elle
> So miraculously I tried starting the car today with the jump-starter
> and bang it fired right up, no playing with the throttle or anything. I
> was going to test for spark, now that our new england monsoon has ended
> (7 days of straight rain) but since it fired up, obviously it's getting
> spark.
Like Tegger was suggesting, it's getting spark when it's dry, so the
ignition wires are suspect. Replace them, and report back. :-)
Also, with the engine completely cool, top off the coolant level in the
radiator. Then warm the engine up and fill the reservoir to its maximum
line. Do an air purge on the cooling system if there's any question that air
may be in the system. Air in the system or an underfilled system will not
properly cool certain engine RPM yada control components, resulting in
erratic idling.
I would not suspect the main relay at all at this point.
mik...@hotmail.com
regular pulsing (at a fixed frequency) between 1 and 2k RPM. I'll
fill/check the coolant levels.
I did some reading and a "pulsing" idle can be apparently caused by a
leak in the vacuum lines. More interestingly I read that the AC/heating
valves are sometimes run off these lines (vacuum motors?), and I'm
wondering if the erratic "servo sounds" (opening and closing) I was
hearing behing the dash are another symptom of this.
Thanks for the advice!
-Mike
TeGGeR®
news:1129474829.5...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> So miraculously I tried starting the car today with the jump-starter
> and bang it fired right up, no playing with the throttle or anything. I
> was going to test for spark, now that our new england monsoon has ended
> (7 days of straight rain) but since it fired up, obviously it's getting
> spark.
Or the wires have dried off enough to allow starting.
>
> Now however I have a new problem. I was going to let it run for a while
> to charge the battery but the idle suddenly went "wacky". The car
> sounds like it's reving the engine, idling between 1k and 2k RPM again
> and again in a pulsing fashion (reeer... reeer.... reeer...).
Massive air leak!! Check ALL hoses!
mik...@hotmail.com
start, and it would move, I decided to try and get it somewhere before
I had to have it towed. The mechanic said the "Idle Air Control", IAC,
valve wasn't working properly which was causing the surging/pulsing
idle. I read up on it, and it sounds like it could have been the cause
of my no start as well. This has been quite a learning experiece and I
appreciate all the help from the people who've posted here! Thanks!
They replaced the IAC and according to the mechanic (I haven't picked
it up yet) "it's running great", the total is about $300, which
considering I had them fix a leaking tire as well I guess isn't too
bad.
The only thing I wonder is why this didn't set any error codes in the
computer, since I've read in other places that a stuck or
malfunctioning IAC can set codes (and/or light the MIL).
Hopefully this little saga is over, thanks to all,
-Mike
Elle
I had idle problems last year not unlike yours, took apart the IAC valve,
and in the process found the cooling chamber was full of air.
Purged the system. Car ran like a charm.
<mik...@hotmail.com> wrote
TeGGeR®
news:1129577754.3...@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> Well I finally broke down and took it to a mechanic. After I got it to
> start, and it would move, I decided to try and get it somewhere before
> I had to have it towed. The mechanic said the "Idle Air Control", IAC,
> valve wasn't working properly which was causing the surging/pulsing
> idle.
Then it was stuck WIDE open, or the gaskets were leaking severely. You've
had an unusual occurrence.
> I read up on it, and it sounds like it could have been the cause
> of my no start as well. This has been quite a learning experiece and I
> appreciate all the help from the people who've posted here! Thanks!
> They replaced the IAC and according to the mechanic (I haven't picked
> it up yet) "it's running great", the total is about $300, which
> considering I had them fix a leaking tire as well I guess isn't too
> bad.
>
> The only thing I wonder is why this didn't set any error codes in the
> computer, since I've read in other places that a stuck or
> malfunctioning IAC can set codes (and/or light the MIL).
The IAC valve will set an error only if it stops responding. If the gaskets
were leaking or the plunger was stuck and not moving in response to the
motors' commands, a code will not be set.
A stuck IAC points to either a defective assembly, or severe contamination
of the throttle body. Be nice to know some details of what he found.
mik...@hotmail.com
TeGGeR® wrote:
>
> The IAC valve will set an error only if it stops responding. If the gaskets
> were leaking or the plunger was stuck and not moving in response to the
> motors' commands, a code will not be set.
>
Well that makes sense, thanks!
> A stuck IAC points to either a defective assembly, or severe contamination
> of the throttle body. Be nice to know some details of what he found.
His exact words were, the IAC was "completely flat" and not pulsing
properly. I'm too much of a newbie in this car stuff to have asked the
right questions I guess. :)
Do you think I should be concerned about the IAC being stuck? The car
has almost 150k miles, this isn't something that usually wears out? You
think this could be an indicator of something more serious?
Thanks!
-Mike
TeGGeR®
news:1129639864.2...@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
<snip>
>
> Do you think I should be concerned about the IAC being stuck? The car
> has almost 150k miles, this isn't something that usually wears out?
> You think this could be an indicator of something more serious?
The IAC is NOT something that normally "wears out".
It is generally either 1) mechanically/electrically defective, or 2) gets
clogged with sludge.
If the former, well, you've just won the reverse lottery. It's highly
unlikely you'll ever see this problem again.
If the latter, you've got much more serious problems than a plugged IAC.
You need to make sure your mechanic confirms the cleanliness of the
throttle body, and the cleanliness of the PCV system. This is so basic and
critical that it's beyond question.
Failure to change the engine oil in accordance with YOUR PERSONAL driving
habits is what causes sludge. Forget the "normal" and "severe" service
schedules in the Owner's Manual: *EVERYBODY* meets the "severe"
requirements, no matter what the automaker marketing departments want you
to believe.
mik...@hotmail.com
occasioanlly gone 4k miles, but rarely (the car's at 140k miles and
almost all of them long highway drives commuting, it's had quite a few
oil changes). I'll have a mechanic check the throttle body and PVC
system. The car seems to be running great now, but what would be
symptoms of those being dirty?
I had an ignition switch/ignition coil issue about a two years ago that
caused a long chain of cascade failures.
The exact chain of events is a little murky but it was something like
something in the starter system died that fried, my alternator, that
caused my battery to discharge after the dealer replaced the alternator
and battery the engine misfired and stalled quite a bit clogging the
EGR ports and screwing up the catalytic converter. The dealership that
did the repairs (suspisciously) did a bunch of work for free because
they initially just replaced the alternator and battery and told me I
was all set.
Could all of that been a precursor to this issue?
Thanks for the advice, tegger!
-Mike
TeGGeR®
news:1129743632.9...@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
> Hmm I'm fairly religious on changing the oil in my car. I've
> occasioanlly gone 4k miles, but rarely (the car's at 140k miles and
> almost all of them long highway drives commuting, it's had quite a few
> oil changes). I'll have a mechanic check the throttle body and PVC
> system. The car seems to be running great now, but what would be
> symptoms of those being dirty?
Not much noticeable at the beginning, but eventually your throttle will get
stickey, and you'll be burning oil.
>
> I had an ignition switch/ignition coil issue about a two years ago
> that caused a long chain of cascade failures.
>
<snip tale of woe>
>
> Could all of that been a precursor to this issue?
Whoo. I have no way of knowing from where I am. The IAC is unlikely to have
failed because of any of that, unless it was sludged-up, of course.
>
> Thanks for the advice, tegger!
>
Anytime.