Dextron III and ATF +3 transmission fluids ?
Bob
fine. The other week I noticed the fluid started to go down. I looked very
closely and saw the leak. It was at the right hand drive axle oil seal. I
took the vehicle to a local transmission shop and had them replace the seal.
It cost $55.00 total for this work. This seal replacement fixed the problem.
I watched the guy do the work. When he removed the drive axle a bunch of
fluid poured out as would be expected. After he completed the work he
replenished the fluid from a hose that hung down from the shop ceiling.
Obviously a one fluid for all vehicles situation. I asked the guy what kind
of fluid it was. He said "Dextron III, its good stuff". OK, I understand
that you should use the proper fluid for a transmission which as far as I
understand is ATF +3 or 7176 for my transmission. This is where my question
starts. Everyone will panic and tell me to use ATF +3, but no one can tell
me why. They where just told this by someone else I guess. Can anyone tell
me what the difference is between Dextron III and ATF +3 is ? The
transmission works fine with the Dextron III, but what would continued use
of Dextron III do ? I am the type who changes my oil and filter myself every
3000 miles. I have been having shops change my transmission fluid and filter
because it is messy to do. But I am thinking of changing the filter and
fluid myself from now on so that I know what goes in it.
Thanks,
Tim
Art Begun
Your AT can compensate but it is wearing while it
does and will fail eventually with the wrong
fluid.
"Bob" <Bob.> wrote in message
news:u2ilnm6...@corp.supernews.com...
Randy
Do yourself a favor and co a complete fluid change. ATF+3 is ATF+3
and DexronIII is DexronIII. +3 has "friction modifiers" not
contained in Dexron. Also, do not go back to that tranny shop for any
reason. He may have been "greasing the wheel" so-to-speak, by putting
the wrong fluid in, knowing that you would be back in 6 months for
more work.
--
A question is better debated and left unanswered than a question that is answered without debate.
-Unknown
ADMopar1
once !!
It's true that the tranny will compensate for a short time, but it's actually
wearing out very quickly. Suck out every last drop of that Dextron poison, and
refill only with Chrysler fluid (or ATF+3)
jdoe
can cause breakdown of the adhesisives which bond the clutch material to the
plates. Find a dealer and as long as you have to do this anyway have it
flushed with +4. BTW I had it done recently as a matter of maintenance for
$85 at my local dealer. Than keep it in a straight maintenance schedule at
no more than 35k if +4 or 18-20 if +3. BTW You don't mention what trans you
have. If you have the A604/41TE VERY CRITICAL if you have the 3 spd. not as
critical but still a good thing to do ASAP, but if it's a 3 spd. don't
bother with +4.
Larry
"Bob" <Bob.> wrote in message news:u2ilnm6...@corp.supernews.com...
Rick
Rick
"jdoe" <jd...@msn.net> wrote in message
news:rkkW7.358$LY2....@paloalto-snr1.gtei.net...
Daniel J. Stern
> I have a 94' Plymouth Voyager with 78K miles. The transmission works just
> fine. The other week I noticed the fluid started to go down. I looked very
> closely and saw the leak. It was at the right hand drive axle oil seal.
Hope it's *only* the seal. This leak frequently occurs (and recurs) as a
result of a wallered-out RH driveshaft bearing. If that is the case, the
new seal won't last long if the bearing wasn't repaired.
> Obviously a one fluid for all vehicles situation. I asked the guy what kind
> of fluid it was. He said "Dextron III, its good stuff".
Wrong fluid for that transmission.
> OK, I understand that you should use the proper fluid for a
> transmission which as far as I understand is ATF +3 or 7176 for my
> transmission.
Correct, except that the current fluid is ATF+4, which is now recommended
for +, +2 and +3 applications.
> starts. Everyone will panic and tell me to use ATF +3, but no one can tell
> me why.
ATF+4's frictional characteristics are different. This affects the way
the frictional elements (clutches, bands) in the transmission engage.
It's utterly vital that the +4 fluid be used in the 4-speed automatics,
not quite as essential in the 3-speeds, but torque converter clutch
engagement can get juddery even in the 3-speed if the proper fluid isn't
used. In addition, the +4 fluid is more thermally stable and has a lower
pour point than Dexron (which does not have a "T").
DS
ADMopar1
great depth :
A painless way to fix a "bad" transmission!When you change your transmission
fluid, always use the recommended (in the manual) fluid. (1989-91 owners,
ignore the manual and use ATF+3 or +4).
Don't just assume your mechanic or dealer knows what fluid to use. Ask them
what they will use and make sure it's the right one. (Some people recommend
watching the mechanic pour it in, and for good reason! We have been told about
mechanics who said they were using ATF+3 when they were not. Is a customer's
transmission worth the $10 for better fluid?)
All Chrysler four-speed automatic transmissions are very sensitive to the
quality of the transmission fluid. Only use Type ATF+3 or ATF+4 in these
transmissions (ATF+4 in 2000 and up models). Do not use Dexron or Mercon.
Often, people can cure their transmission problems simply by changing the
fluid! If you suspect (or know) they have put Dexron in, invest the $40 or so
to have it replaced immediately - otherwise, you'll have a nice big
transmission bill! [if you have a 1993-95 transmission, also follow
TSB-18-24-95 and get your computer updated!
Master tech Chris Taurman wrote: "changing the fluid alone in 93-95 units is a
short term fix; the TCM must also be flashed or replaced to prevent the fluid
from becoming degraded again and to eliminate partial "EMCC" TCC operation
which was the cause of 90% of TCC shudder complaints (NOT THE CONVERTER
ITSELF!) as well as the aforementioned bump down (shift scheduling changes in
the software took care of most of low mileage complaints).]
There is no universal automatic transmission fluid. Chrysler four-speed
automatics only use ATF+3 (ATF+4 for 2000 and up vehicles), regardless of what
the dipstick or owner's manual says.
Do not use Dexron with an additive. Richard Widman passed us an extensive
report from reputable gas company Chevron, which compared ATF+3 fluid with
Dexron plus various additives. They found that neither of two major brands
matched ATF+3's performance specs.
If you don't have any problems until you have your car serviced...what does
that tell you?
Frequently, a transmission that the dealer or transmission shop says is "not
repairable" can be fixed with the simple steps outlined on this page, so don't
give up hope just because a mechanic or two says your transmission needs to be
replaced.
Don't just take out word for it. Click here to read testimonials and other
readers' experiences.
Should I use this stuff with my older transmission?Dan Stern reported that the
back of the ATF+4 bottle purchased from a Chrysler Canada dealer (in 2001) said
it was suitable for all ATF+, ATF+2, and ATF+3 applications. He's recommended
using ATF+3 in older (TorqueFlite) transmissions, since it's a higher quality
fluid and provides better results; he recommends using ATF+4 instead of Dexron,
too.
Computer revisionAs detailed in a 1995 technical service bulletin, 18-24-95,
many issues (including the infamous "bump shift") can be resolved by updating
the computer's flash ROM (where possible), and carefully going through a
retraining process. Dealers can and should do this free of charge before any
other work is undertaken (except of course for the transmission fluid change).
(See below for the retraining process).
Michael Richards wrote: The Transmission Control Module (TCM) is another item
that deserves mention. I found a TSB indicating a flash upgrade (software?) was
needed to eliminate hard/erratic shift problems after 2 dealers told me I
needed a $1600 transmission rebuild. I insisted they perform the upgrade first.
The TCM refused to accept the upgrade so I had them replace it (they did it
under protest). Now my transmission works like new. It cost 'just' $200.
Something to consider.
Solenoid packs / relays - the most common problem?Christopher Grimm wrote that,
sometimes, the protective screens for the hydraulic "brain" can get clogged,
blocking fluid flow. He says the brain must then be taken apart (not
recommended by Chrysler) and the screens and valves cleaned. Christopher
recommended getting a replacement from the junkyard to work on. He also said
this only works once on any particular "brain." However, Certified Master Tech
Chris Taurman wrote: Do not take solenoid packs apart. This alters the
calibration of the unit! If the filters are plugged up, replace it! The current
unit costs about $150 and eliminates the need for a sound shield and separator
plate!
More often, Christopher said, the issue is simply that Chrysler and/or the
rebuilder set the clearances too high, and/or the wrong fluid was used.
Joe Ford wrote: I got a quote of $1500 to get my LeBaron running again. When I
went to get a second opinion, the guy checked the transmission with some fancy
computer, switched the two transmission relays...and it works now. Now, after a
replacement relay was installed (about $50) it runs like new! Thanks again to
all of you who helped out...and if you have a transmission like mine...CHECK
THE RELAY before you replace the entire transmission. (The relay kit is often
the problem, we are told).
What type of fluid to use? (more details)Dennis Williamson wrote that Chrysler
7176 / ATF+3 fluid is no longer the only fluid to use in a late model
transmission. Chrysler TSB# 21-16-99 lists the current vehicles that only use
ATF+4 type 9602, part 05013457AA (for quart bottles). The vehicles that use
this fluid include:
Starting Model Year Car Built After
1999 Prowler 7-20-98
2000 Neon 4-24-99
2000 Minivans (11th letter of VIN=R) 10-10-99
2000 Minivans (11th letter of VIN=B) 10-18-99
1999 Concorde, Intrepid, LHS, 300M 7-20-98
2000 Sebring convertible 5-21-99
1999 Cirrus, Stratus, Breeze 9-7-98
Robert Alderson, a Chrysler transmission tech with gold certification, noted
that 2000 and newer vehicles use 9606 (ATF+4) fluid.
S. Benson, an ASE Master Tech, noted that, "starting with the 1991 model year,
Chrysler has required the use of ATF type 7176 fluid in all Chyrsler automatic
transmissions. ATF matching this spec is available from Texaco, Union 76,
Quaker State, Pennzoil, and others."
While others make additives that claim to meet the ATF+3 requirement when added
to Dexron, extensive information on Chevron's Web site shows that the two
leading additives do not meet the standards.
Rich Hutchinson wrote:
The 1989-91 line refers to 4 spd autos. In those years both the manual and the
dipstick said Dexron was okay, which is just plain wrong.
For non lockup 3 spds, either can be used. For lockup 3 spds up to some date in
1999 either could be used but ATF+3 was prefered. After that date ATF+4 is to
be used in the 3 spd and 4spd. Apparently for the newest ones there's yet
another formulation of ATF+4 (9606 vs 9602).
ATF+4 is compatible with transmissions requiring ATF+, ATF+2, and ATF+3.
Remember - when you change from Dexron, also retrain the computer and "flash"
the computer (if applicable).
Trivia: In addition to Chrysler, Honda, Mitsubishi, and Toyota require
"special" transmission fluids!
Chrysler transmission filter mix-upsThe filters for the some of the Chrysler
four-speed transmissions are easily mixed up, but are not interchangeable. Make
sure you are using the exact filter specified in the owner's manual (or the
correct third party equivalent). A filter which looks almost exactly the same,
and is even made for the same company's vehicles, may not work on your
transmission. (Thanks, Ed Hennessy)
Retraining your Chrysler transmissionTransmission Exchange said the computer
should be retrained when a rebuilt transmission is put in. This prevents both
clutches from activating at the same time. Henry Traska noted that it may be
best to retrain the transmission after changing the fluid if you were
experiencing shifting problems.
Mark Schwieterman provided a retraining guide to the EEK! mailing list:
Disconnect the battery to wipe the system memory clean (of course you will lose
your radio presets and clock, but that's worth if it fixes the problem).
Reconnect the battery [after a decent interval] and start the engine.
Drive trying to maintain a constant medium throttle position as it accelerates
up though all four gears (watch your tachometer). If the tranny is working
correctly, you should only have to go to 45-50 mph. Do this from a standing
start 15 - 20 times. You'll need a couple of miles of lightly travelled two
lane.
With the van below 25 mph, do 5 - 8 wide open throttle kickdowns to 1st from
2nd or 3rd. let the van run in 2nd or 3rd for at least five seconds between
kickdowns and remember to kick it down from below 25. With the van above 25, do
5 - 8 part to wide open throttle kickdowns to either 2nd or 3rd from 4th. Again
let the van run for at least 5 seconds in 4th between kickdowns. Kicking down
from 45 or 50 mph should work.
The "bump shift"Master Tech Chris Taurman wrote:
"Bump down" is not caused by the low/reverse clutch, this clutch is turned on
prior to the speed at which bump down ocurrs, the actual cause is one of two
problems.
Changing the transmission fluid [may work but] in 1993-95 units is a short term
fix. The computer must also be flashed or replaced to prevent the fluid from
becoming degraded again and to eliminate partial "EMCC" TCC operation which was
the cause of 90% of TCC shudder complaints (not the converter itself!) as well
as bump down(shift scheduling changes in the software took care of most of low
mileage complaints).
The underdrive clutch is the primary cause of all other bump down complaints
(the piston seal leaks causing the computer to command 100% duty cycle of the
UD solenoid causing harsh downshift). A rebuild is the only repair for this
root cause.
GMB3625 wrote:
Sometime you can flash the computer [reprogram] to the latest specs and it
might work. The computer learns the cvi's [clutch volumn indexs] which in turn
tells the solenoid pak how long to keep any given solenoid open to send fluid
to a clutch pack. This will only work with clutch paks that are in good shape
with the right clutch clearances. If the clutch clearances are bad this will
not work properly. If the seals are bad, you will only try to cover up a
problem and it will come back. The only way to fix this problem is to overhaul
the trans with the proper trans kit and parts. The mopar kit has all the newest
and correct seals in it.
Do-it-yourself guidesWe have been given permission to reprint Lane MacFarlane's
guide to changing transmission fluid yourself. We have added to it, as well.
Steve Knickerbocker wrote: A rebuild kit for the A413 trans is less than $60,
the book on how to rebuild them is about $20. The experience? Priceless. Even
if you actually bought each of the special tools specified in the book, not
needed but handy, you would still come in way under $1900.
I rebuild my own transmissions and even the A604 types aren't hard, but they
have to be spotlessly clean when you put them back together. Most of the A604
shifting issues are one of two things, clogged solenoid pack, about $60 for a
new one last I checked, or an older software version which any dealer should be
able to update.
Alan Wachs wrote: Helm and Dyment can supply a wide range of vehicle
publications. The publication sales agent will send me a free listing of all of
the Chrysler transmission publications covering at least as far back as 1990,
to present.
Helm Publications Division is located at 14310 Hamilton Ave, Highland Park, MI
48203. Their ordering phone number is 1-800-782-4356. I have no address for
Dyment, but their ordering phone number is 1-800-348-4696, and they--not
Helm--carry the Chrysler materials.
Carl Vann suggested getting the Chrysler A-604 Techtran(TM) Manual and the
Chrysler A-604 Update Handbook.
Reader experiences and testimonials
Alternative repairsDarrell Vines wrote:
I read your summaries on transmissions that shifted roughly and with jerky
transitions. Also read about starter solenoid problems. When I had the starter
problem worked on by local alternator shop, the mechanic asked if I had
transmission problems and solved them all by plugging in a loose electrical
connection. Oh, such simple solutions.....
Bryan wrote:
I found your page very interesting. As a former Porsche tech and the owner of a
new Grand Caravan I have noticed a load dependent noise at 45 to 60 mph. My ear
tells me this is a bad pinion bearing. In searching other chat groups I have
found other complaining of the same thing. It is important to remember that
pinion bearing failures can take years to finally ruin a transmission hence the
car owner can be run around for a long time.
Rich Hutchinson wrote about the three speed automatic:
There was a programming change that burnished the torque converter clutch.
Without that software the 3 spd can shudder, though it's likely that normal
wear could cause this burnishing and avoid the problem.
Dealing with rebuilders and repair shopsChristopher Grimm also had this advice
for dealing with shops:
If you're looking at a rebuild, do your homework. See if the shop knows about
shift improvement kits for the 604, they DO exist! Also ask them about a wiring
harness upgrade, and how they set the clearances in the tranny. See if they
mention adding another clutch pack to the 1-2 clutch pack, so that there is 5
instead of 4 in there. Make sure they replace the spider gears!!! Above all,
make sure they use the proper fluid! If not, don't even bother. If they met all
the requirements except the fluid, ask them if you can supply your own. Also
see if they can get the 9" converter, $$$, but worth it if you want your engine
to rev a little quicker. There are also different gear sets available, I have
the 3:55s in mine. I never told you what the clearances should be did I? Make
sure they set them at the lowest setting possible. This will shorten the shift
time, firm up the shift, and give you more life out of the tranny. Good luck.
One more thing, an auxiliary cooler is a must!
Normal noisesDan Stern wrote (with regard to a buzzing noise just before
stopping):
I'm right in the heart of one of Chrysler's strongest sales markets. I can
stand on any street corner in my town and in ten minutes probably hear 30-40
examples of this sound, which goes "bzzzz---zz-tic". It's completely normal.
It's the transmission fluid control solenoid valves opening and shutting
rapidly to make the fluid go where it's supposed to go to shift the
transmission. All the FWD/AWD 4spd automatics make this sound with every
upshift, every downshift, and every gear selection. You hear the one as you
pull to a stop, because the road and engine noise are minimal at this low
speed.
Posthumous adviceJim, the owner of Gene Poon's transmission shop, died of
cancer. Jim knew his customers, and had so much of their trust that customers
would ask him advice on what new cars to buy. When Gene bought his used
Intrepid, he first asked Jim about the status of the 604/Ultradrive. Jim
assured him the early problems were solved, and Gene has been happy with his
Intrepid since. However, when Jim found that Gene had bought one, he sent a
script for customers buying new or used Chryslers. If anyone benefits from
this, they can mentally thank Jim...
CONGRATULATIONS, NEW CHRYSLER OWNER!
Some advice on the 4-speed automatic transmission:
This transmission, which is used in virtually ALL Chrysler Corporation
[Chrysler, Plymouth, and Dodge] cars and minivans, got a bad reputation early
on for poor reliability. The weaknesses in the transmission have been fixed.
But there is something which is the OWNER'S responsibility to see to: the
proper care and feeding of this transmission.
Observe the "Severe Service" maintenance schedule.
Use, or have your mechanic use, only a QUALITY transmission filter when the
transmission is serviced. The best is a genuine Chrysler MOPAR filter. THERE IS
A DIFFERENCE. Some aftermarket filters, though they fit, are actually Universal
types intended to fit several different transmissions. Some have the same
filter in boxes with different numbers! In the case of the MOPAR ones, every
one is different!
Use, or have your mechanic use, ONLY the correct transmission fluid, which is
Chrysler Type 7176. The current version from Chrysler is called 7176+2, and is
recommended. Quaker State and Pennzoil make a "7176" fluid which is compatible
and equivalent to 7176+2. It is also OK. Some Chrysler owner's manuals say that
you can use DEXRON if the 7176 fluid is not available. DO NOT DO IT! [9096 for
2000 and newer cars]
If the 7176 fluid costs more (it does, about 50-60 cents a quart), PAY IT.
If you need to add a pint of fluid and 7176 is not available, drive a few miles
to the next place which has it. This will be less harm than using DEXRON.
If a mechanic says he can substitute a little DEXRON and it won't do any harm,
LEAVE!
If someone says he can use DEXRON plus an "anti-friction additive" in your
Chrysler transmission, LEAVE!
If you have some DEXRON lying around from your old car, give it away to some
friend with a GM or late Ford car.
If somebody puts DEXRON in, take it to a shop which uses 7176, and have them
drain the ENTIRE transmission, and refill with 7176. This will cost about
$160.00.
WHY? The friction characteristics of DEXRON are different from 7176. It is a
"grabbier" fluid. The Chrysler transmission has an electronic system which
continuously senses the behavior of the transmission and regulates shifts
accordingly. If DEXRON is used, the clutches inside the transmission will
"grab", and the electronic controls, which sample the operation of the
transmission about 140-180 times a second, will let up on the clutches. The
clutches will then slip excessively, the transmission will try to tighten up on
them, and due to the characteristics of DEXRON, they will again grab. This will
occur at the 140-180 times per second rate, and the transmission will have a
shuddering feel to the shifting. This is also very hard on the clutches, and
they will have a short life. The cost to overhaul one of these transmissions is
about $1200-$1400 on a front-drive car, so you DO NOT want to shorten its life.
There is NO UNIVERSAL TRANSMISSION FLUID. DO NOT USE DEXRON!