3.5 Code 43
Chico
First time poster, long time reader.
So, I decided to save myself some $$$ and do the 150K service on my 95 NYer
myself. Went to the local parts store and picked up a new PCV valve, air
filter, and 6 Bosch Platinum plugs.
Everything went easy except the plugs. Haynes said .050" for a 95. I took
each out and they were about .038" which was about what each one was out of
the box.
Tried partially removing air plenum to get a #6. Real PITA getting the
gasket lined up when bolting back on. Wish I saw that post about pushing
wires from the front to get slack before I started.
So, I go to fire it up, and it cranks like there's no end, but won't fire.
All plug wires seem to be secured OK. Blink codes tell me 12 43 43 (yes
twice) 32 and 55.
So, I'm guessing I hosed the plugs or wires (used existing set). It was
running fine when I pulled it in so I am 99% sure something I did today.
I'd like to know which cylinders to look at rather than just randomly
trying.
Does anyone know how to further debug the 43s? I don't want to pay for a
tow, and the tool looks really expensive for a novice like me.
Any helpful suggestions are appreciated.
Thanks
Chico
Mike Martin
need to have a scanner. It can then break it down to which cylinder is
causing the problem. One good note - one of the items code 43 is a cylinder
misfire, so if you were to say accidentally cross two plug wires, you could
get a code 43. It also could be an injector that you may have knocked a
connection loose on, but I don't think that would cause a no start. More
likely mixed up plug wires.
Also note that when you buy spark plugs, they don't come correctly gapped.
As they can be for various applications, with different gap requirements.
You must always check and regap plugs before installation. Also do not rely
on measuring the old ones. First they may not have been done correctly when
they were put in, but also the gap changes with age as they wear (depends on
the plug type in use) and if they are old plugs the gap can be quite off
from original. This is one of the reasons plugs are changed. You may note
that some styles of newer plugs have a much longer life span - these amongst
other things, have a design that keeps the gap within tolerances that they
can operate efficiently over.
"Chico" <cr...@biteme.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9419BDFB35A...@199.45.49.11...
Chico
news:PEGkb.1315$XO.1...@news20.bellglobal.com:
> Code 43 means a whole bunch of things, and to get a further breakdown,
<snip>
I feared crossing the plug wires. So, I took each one out, measured the old
gap, checked the gap on the new, and put in the new 1 by 1. So, I am 100%
that isn't it (although a good suggestion).
One thing I wondered is that Haynes said a 94 is .035 95 is .050 and 96 is
0.035 . This is what prompted me to check them.
I've previously only had plugs replaced by the dealer, so if they hosed it
up, Chrysler is going to get a letter. Fortunately, I saved the old plugs
(and their order) so I can further debug.
One thing I think I might have done is scratched the insulator when trying
to push some plugs back to 0.035 from 0.038 . I could see a little metal on
the sides but thought it wouldn't matter since it was on the opposite side
of the prong. Stupid circular Champ gapper and stupid me.
My buddy (another friendly Canadian) said he has an OBD II scanner.
Unfortunately, he got tied up today getting a boat outta the lake before
freeze-up. We'll try tomorrow night and I'll post the results. At least I
now know an easier way to remove wires for next time.
Thanks for the suggestion,
Chico
Neil Nelson
Chico <cr...@biteme.com> wrote:
> Hello All.
> First time poster, long time reader.
Okay.
> So, I decided to save myself some $$$ and do the 150K service on my 95 NYer
> myself. Went to the local parts store and picked up a new PCV valve, air
> filter, and 6 Bosch Platinum plugs.
Trust me here... You do _not_ want Bosch Platinum plugs in
this thing. Champions, NGK, or Autolite double platinums
are the only choices that will not wreak havoc.
> Everything went easy except the plugs. Haynes said .050" for a 95. I took
> each out and they were about .038" which was about what each one was out of
> the box.
Screw what the Haynes manual says, what does the VECI label
(tune-up label) under the hood specify for sparkplug gap?
That is the spec you should use.
> Tried partially removing air plenum to get a #6. Real PITA getting the
> gasket lined up when bolting back on. Wish I saw that post about pushing
> wires from the front to get slack before I started.
You partially removed the upper plenum?
Now you need to fully remove it and replace the gasket
between -it- and the lower. No ifs, ands, or buts. Replace
the gasket. if a slightly (or worse) rough idle was the
motivation for doing the tune-up, you'll no doubt also need
the lower intake gaskets replaced. Very common failure on
the 3.5, especially cylinder #5. (passenger rear)
> So, I go to fire it up, and it cranks like there's no end, but won't fire.
> All plug wires seem to be secured OK. Blink codes tell me 12 43 43 (yes
> twice) 32 and 55.
The code 43 means that ignition coil current hasn't reached
what it should have, IOWs, you probably have an open in the
ignition coil primary circuit. Did you unplug the 4 wire
power/ground connector from the coil pack? Were there any
other connectors that you un-plugged when you were wrestling
with removing the upper plenum?
You also have an EGR problem.
Ignore the code 12, allpar is wrong about their code
definition WRT code 12 when extracted via the key cycle
method.
> So, I'm guessing I hosed the plugs or wires (used existing set). It was
> running fine when I pulled it in so I am 99% sure something I did today.
> I'd like to know which cylinders to look at rather than just randomly
> trying.
Back track and check everywhere you were working. Yup, it's
something you did whilst working on it.
The code 43 has nothing to do with the ignition secondary,
so aside from redoing the sparkplugs and getting the Bosch
crap out of there, there's no point in focusing on the wires
and plugs for the no start.
> Does anyone know how to further debug the 43s? I don't want to pay for a
> tow, and the tool looks really expensive for a novice like me.
> Any helpful suggestions are appreciated.
A good scan tool may further define which coils aren't
seeing proper primary current, but I fail to see how your
actions short of pinching a primary wire when you loosened
the upper plenum could effect but one primary circuit.
Bob Shuman
last two changes. IIRC, the gap specified was 0.036", but it has been a few
months. I have read that others have experienced problems using Bosch plugs
in this engine, but I have not had the same experience. They seem to work
fine and engine mileage is very good (29-30 MPG at ~62MPH highway).
I doubt your problem with starting is related to the plugs. More than
likely it is the wires, coil, or something in the electrical system.
Good luck.
Bob
"Neil Nelson" <none...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:nonelson-7D42EF...@newssvr26.news.prodigy.com...
Chico
First, a follow up:
My buddy came over with his ODB-II tool, but told me the 95 is OBD-I only.
Oh well. So, he pulled the codes via the key. Got out, removed the air
cleaner, and it started right up. Both 43s went away.
Next day, was driving around and steam came out from over the hood. Long
story short, when they write TIGHT they mean TIGHT on the radiator cap.
Fortunately, I caught it early and the car did not overheat to shutdown.
Seems back to 100% after 1 2/3 gallons of 50/50 mix.
> Trust me here... You do _not_ want Bosch Platinum plugs in
> this thing. Champions, NGK, or Autolite double platinums
> are the only choices that will not wreak havoc.
I hope you are not insulted if I ask why? Are they crap in general or only
on the 3.5 or ???
> Screw what the Haynes manual says, what does the VECI label
> (tune-up label) under the hood specify for sparkplug gap?
> That is the spec you should use.
I thought I had read about a recall, and since I last had the plugs
replaced at Green Chrysler 2 years ago, I trusted what they had gapped to.
> You partially removed the upper plenum?
> Now you need to fully remove it and replace the gasket
> between -it- and the lower. No ifs, ands, or buts. Replace
> the gasket. if a slightly (or worse) rough idle was the
> motivation for doing the tune-up, you'll no doubt also need
> the lower intake gaskets replaced. Very common failure on
> the 3.5, especially cylinder #5. (passenger rear)
The only motivation was routine maintenace. I *used* to have a very rough
idle for about 3-4 months until I had the intake manifold gasket replaced.
No idea where the old gasket failed though. The plenum gasket was solid and
not sealed with RTV (or other goop). No audible air leaks or poor
performace. In fact, slightly better now. Before the plugs replacement, I
used to get the MIL at highway speed on warm days. I attributed it to the
code 32. Before I replaced the plugs, I got 12 32 55. Now, the MIL hasn't
come on at highway speed (although it has been 45-60F outside lately).
> The code 43 means that ignition coil current hasn't reached
> what it should have, IOWs, you probably have an open in the
> ignition coil primary circuit. Did you unplug the 4 wire
> power/ground connector from the coil pack? Were there any
> other connectors that you un-plugged when you were wrestling
> with removing the upper plenum?
Bingo! It was the 4 wire connector. Don't remember disconnecting it, but
now to always check it now.
>
> You also have an EGR problem.
> Ignore the code 12, allpar is wrong about their code
> definition WRT code 12 when extracted via the key cycle
> method.
So, what is 12 then? I know you say ignore it, but I'm curious.
> Back track and check everywhere you were working. Yup, it's
> something you did whilst working on it.
> The code 43 has nothing to do with the ignition secondary,
> so aside from redoing the sparkplugs and getting the Bosch
> crap out of there, there's no point in focusing on the wires
> and plugs for the no start.
Wish Haynes did a better job of explaining and pointing directions.
Probably could have got it myself if their text made more sense to me.
But, I have a unique perspective: I have actually created fault codes in
vehicle software (yes, I work for a manufacturer) and had to be somewhat
vague in code description because of the means of detection and future
refactoring.
BTW, SAE SPN and FMI codes are of limited use also.
> A good scan tool may further define which coils aren't
> seeing proper primary current, but I fail to see how your
> actions short of pinching a primary wire when you loosened
> the upper plenum could effect but one primary circuit.
Fortunately, we didn't need it. Now, to look for a good OBD-I tool!
Thanks for the help
Chico
Neil Nelson
Chico <cr...@biteme.com> wrote:
> Neil Nelson <none...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
> news:nonelson-7D42EF...@newssvr26.news.prodigy.com:
>
> First, a follow up:
> My buddy came over with his ODB-II tool, but told me the 95 is OBD-I only.
> Oh well. So, he pulled the codes via the key. Got out, removed the air
> cleaner, and it started right up. Both 43s went away.
> Next day, was driving around and steam came out from over the hood. Long
> story short, when they write TIGHT they mean TIGHT on the radiator cap.
> Fortunately, I caught it early and the car did not overheat to shutdown.
> Seems back to 100% after 1 2/3 gallons of 50/50 mix.
Curious indeed! Since the air cleaner and ducting is in the
general vicinity of the ignition coil pack, it's entirely
possible that something got nudged back into place.
The 3.5 is a very robust engine, you can literally cook the hell
out of them and not blow a head gasket.
> > Trust me here... You do _not_ want Bosch Platinum plugs in
> > this thing. Champions, NGK, or Autolite double platinums
> > are the only choices that will not wreak havoc.
>
> I hope you are not insulted if I ask why?
Absolutely not. 8^)
> Are they crap in general or only
> on the 3.5 or ???
The design of the Bosch Platinums in general are not condusive to
working well on DIS (distributorless ignition systems), also,
Bosch tends to lump many heat ranges into one part number which
can and does pose a performance/driveability problem on engines
equipped with knock sensors (which yours has), and then there's
the issue often seen with the fragile center electrode wire (to
name a few).
> > Screw what the Haynes manual says, what does the VECI label
> > (tune-up label) under the hood specify for sparkplug gap?
> > That is the spec you should use.
>
> I thought I had read about a recall, and since I last had the plugs
> replaced at Green Chrysler 2 years ago, I trusted what they had gapped to.
Further research would be in order, but if there was a recall
that changed the sparkplug gap spec, Green Chrysler should have
put an updated VECI label on the car advising as such.
> > You partially removed the upper plenum?
> > Now you need to fully remove it and replace the gasket
> > between -it- and the lower. No ifs, ands, or buts. Replace
> > the gasket. if a slightly (or worse) rough idle was the
> > motivation for doing the tune-up, you'll no doubt also need
> > the lower intake gaskets replaced. Very common failure on
> > the 3.5, especially cylinder #5. (passenger rear)
>
> The only motivation was routine maintenace. I *used* to have a very rough
> idle for about 3-4 months until I had the intake manifold gasket replaced.
Ah... been done already.
> No idea where the old gasket failed though.
99% of the time, it's at #5 intake port between the lower plenum
and the cylinder head.
> The plenum gasket was solid and
> not sealed with RTV (or other goop). No audible air leaks or poor
> performace. In fact, slightly better now. Before the plugs replacement, I
> used to get the MIL at highway speed on warm days. I attributed it to the
> code 32. Before I replaced the plugs, I got 12 32 55. Now, the MIL hasn't
> come on at highway speed (although it has been 45-60F outside lately).
The code 32 is strictly an EGR valve functional check failure,
sparkplugs would be unrelated to it unless a conector or vacuum
hose got knocked off and then replaced in the course of doing the
plug change. Code 32 and EGR failures are fairly common across
the entire product line on D-C vehicles, you can almost set yur
watch by them. The back-pressure transducer can be easily taken
apart and inspected for a cracked diaphram, which is usually what
fails first. If the BP diaphram is cracked, it's highly
adviseable to replace the EGR assembly (only way it's sold), left
untreated, eventually hot exhaust gas will find its way to the
EGR solenoid and its electrical connector and melt them.
> > The code 43 means that ignition coil current hasn't reached
> > what it should have, IOWs, you probably have an open in the
> > ignition coil primary circuit. Did you unplug the 4 wire
> > power/ground connector from the coil pack? Were there any
> > other connectors that you un-plugged when you were wrestling
> > with removing the upper plenum?
>
> Bingo! It was the 4 wire connector. Don't remember disconnecting it, but
> now to always check it now.
Yup, easy enough to snag a shirt sleeve on the connector latch
and bump it loose. Let's hope it stays gone.
> >
> > You also have an EGR problem.
> > Ignore the code 12, allpar is wrong about their code
> > definition WRT code 12 when extracted via the key cycle
> > method.
>
> So, what is 12 then? I know you say ignore it, but I'm curious.
A code 12 when extracted via the key cycle method means
"beginning of fault code report." It is the book end to a code
55 which means "end off fault code report."
A code 12 when extracted via a scan tool means that the battery
has been disconnected. Though somewhat confusing, Chrysler had a
reason for doing it the way they did, it traces back to the 80s
and the diagnostic strategies used when diagnosing certain
ignition sensor problems.
> > Back track and check everywhere you were working. Yup, it's
> > something you did whilst working on it.
> > The code 43 has nothing to do with the ignition secondary,
> > so aside from redoing the sparkplugs and getting the Bosch
> > crap out of there, there's no point in focusing on the wires
> > and plugs for the no start.
>
> Wish Haynes did a better job of explaining and pointing directions.
> Probably could have got it myself if their text made more sense to me.
> But, I have a unique perspective: I have actually created fault codes in
> vehicle software (yes, I work for a manufacturer) and had to be somewhat
> vague in code description because of the means of detection and future
> refactoring.
> BTW, SAE SPN and FMI codes are of limited use also.
Chrysler themselves are not vague when it comes to fault code
descriptions, when I switched from working in a GM shop to a
Chrysler shop (actually went Chrysler>GM>Ford> Chrysler), it
became very apparent that Chrysler had their game together over
GM on what the OBD could do and where it would point you towards
a problem. Chrysler had bi-direstional control of sub-systems
*years* before GM introduced it on their vehicles.
It's Haynes and the other information suppliers that choke when
it comes to being thorough, it's almost like their technical
writers are limited to XX number of words. 8-(
> > A good scan tool may further define which coils aren't
> > seeing proper primary current, but I fail to see how your
> > actions short of pinching a primary wire when you loosened
> > the upper plenum could effect but one primary circuit.
>
> Fortunately, we didn't need it. Now, to look for a good OBD-I tool!
E-bay. Snap-On MT-2500 or OTC Monitor 4000 can be had for very
low prices. If you have a lap top, the Ease software is
excellent, and you can buy just the software you need for a
particular vehicle brand without spending extra $$ on stuff that
works on vehicles you don't own.